pax notifying cabin crew re. snow on the wing

[anotherglassofwine]

A close friend of mine was on a scheduled flight a couple of months ago due to depart in light snow. The aircraft was de-iced and then taxied to the runway. Whilst holding in line for the take off he noticed a light dusting of snow starting to appear on the wing. By the time the aircraft was second in line for take off from his window seat over the wing, he grew concerned that the wing was getting further contaminated with snow. At this point he unbuckled himself and walked down to the rear of the aircraft and informed the cabin crew. The flight attendant thanked him and politely asked him to return to his seat. After about 5 minutes the aircraft (b737) returned to the stand and again was de-iced.
I would like to hear from professional pilots what their thoughts are on pax alerting crew to things like this?
As most pax are not qualified to second guess the crew - do you think my friends actions were warranted?
Secondly - can you see the wing tips from the pointy end of 737? If you can't, how does a pilot make a call in a situation like this?
Thirdly - how much snow would effect the lift characteristics of the wing?

My friend is a ppl and an enthusiast and is not one of the 'I know it all' type ppl's that I have bumped into on many occasions. He was genuinely concerned and felt it would be better to alert the crew.

Mods - posted in pax forum as I am not a pro pilot and this is a pax question
Thx
AGOW

[TopBunk]

Well I'll kick off.

imho a professional pilot should welcome information from any source (atc, other aircraft, cabin crew, passengers or whatever). They should assess the information and check for themselves as necessary. There will be occasions (probably more than not) in which case the passed information is incorrect or not a factor, but nonetheless the voicing of concerns should generally be welcomed - it may just save lives one day. It is all part of CRM training, just extended to passengers in this case.

In general, pilots have 'hold over' times for a given de/anti icing procedure based on temperature/type of fluid used and type of precipitation. Pilots will be advised of start time of de/anti icing and type of fluid and then note any precipitation that falls subsequently. A light dusting of snow is not per se a problem, as modern fluids have a shear characteristic so that any contaminant will shear off as the airspeed builds on the take off roll.

Hope that helps

[TFlyguy]

I would rather have 100 passengers tell me something's wrong when it isn't than have 1 not tell me when something is!

If you have any concerns tell the crew!

[Seat62K]

This reminds me of the time I was travelling between Montreal and Toronto as a passenger on a JetsGo Fokker 100. The aircraft was de-iced at a remote facility. I noticed that by the time we'd reached the end of the runway the fluid had frozen solid over the window near my seat. I couldn't see through it:eek:. I was concerned but decided not to raise it with the crew. To this day I wonder whether I did the right thing and if we were in any danger. More recently I've taken to reporting things like the ice I've noticed when walking around the wing to board via the rear door or the "wisp" of smoke coming from a shut-down engine. Better safe than sorry!

[Leezyjet]

And 2 famous accidents could probably have been avoided if the passengers spoke up :-

The Aloha B737 "Cabriolet" and the BD 737-400 at Kegworth.

I'm not a commercial pilot just yet, (still training) but I would hope that if ever someone were on one of my flights, they would speak up if they felt that something was not right - better to be a few minutes late in this life, than a few years early into the next !!.

:ok:

[Avman]

I admire TopBunk's CRM idea, but given the number of nervous, drunk or ignorant pax out there couldn't this potentially get out of hand?

I remember once noting no flap was selected for take-off. I said nothing and cr@pped myself until we were airborne and climbing positively. I subsequently discovered that it was not unusual for this particular type of a/c to take-off without flap. Can't remember what it was now. FK-70 maybe?

[martinmax69]

Was there not an Air Florida flight that crashed in Washington due to snow on wing?I think on the Blackbox recording they were talking about other aircraft with snow etc.i can remember the words.."were going down Larry".xLru>en Googlechttp://www.pprune.org/forums/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABwAAAAOCAYAAAA8E3wEAAAAB mJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAACXBIWXMAAAsTAAALEwEAmpwYAAAAB3RJTUUH1QUUDyoqJjAq RwAAAN1JREFUOMu1lMkVwyAMBYe0JGpCNUFNVk3k4AUwxPGS+ILxkzX8jyTH/Sfu9nrmJ3cXlnMASyWRPwd2d5XlHCBZn1BthcbRAdxTZQDI8k3mQzg11rhF+ QZ9jdNOcQib6GFQYJYgCFucSRf6GsLU6wEY5yubTFqF2yq1vRwr3INXdQUWG +je1pELX4ED1wDyRAR0WfuAA9gloITyvsFMIMgYInYRqF6rO9Sqz9qkO5ily o0o3YBwJ+6vrdQonxWUQllhXeHcb/wabMPkP2n81ocAIoLZrMqn/4y2RwP8DcQ+d6rT9ATiAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC

[wilyflier]

I hate to admit this, but its true.
Many years ago I refused to fly an iced up aircraft as a qualified cockpit crew member.We were late going off one night from Gatwick to Toronto ,freezing and snowing,full of pax.
I advised the captain there was snow on the wings 3 times before departure, but he wouldnt call for de-icing.
So I got off the aircraft,thinking it could not depart without me as part of minimum required crew.
The captain departed anyway. No, the plane didnt crash.But I still got an instant sacking.

[parabellum]

Wasn't the Air Florida crash more to do with the crew's failure to select Engine Ant-Ice 'on' rather than the snow on the wings? I thought it was more to do with having incorrect power settings?:confused:

[denis555]

:O Embarrassing moment. Flying out of Dubai I fell asleep as soon as I sat in my seat and snoring away as we taxied out I registered that the undercarridge was making one hell of a *bang* as we went over uneven ground followed by a clanging noise that , in my imagination, was a vital strutt or brace come loose.

I didn't wake up until just before we were ready to roll and in my half-asleep state I unbuckled and raced towards the attendants to tell them ( even though I was too late we were now starting off down the runway ).

Attendant quite rightly indicated I should sit down NOW! before I got to her. Now fully awake I rushed back to my seat and buckled up...

Of course nothing happened and the u/c went on to bang about when we got back to LHR.

I put my panic down to being dozy and my imagination racing - but at the time I thought it was vitally important.:O

[anotherglassofwine]

Thanks for the replies folks - just returning to part of my initial post..
Can pilots see any portion of the wing from the flightdeck of a 737?
Just be curious to hear from a 737 driver on this ..

[apaddyinuk]

Its just called good CRM really!

For the passenger to even be aware that snow on the wing could be an issue just displays he vigilance and should be treated accordingly. I perhaps wouldnt have gotten out of my seat but I certainly would have wanted to contact a crew member.

Remember, Kegworth may not have happened had the passengers and crew communicated better!

[TightSlot]

Virtually all modern large jet aircraft do not permit flight crew to see the wings, or even wing-tips from the flight deck.

[Maude Charlee]

Can't speak for the 737, but I fly the E195 which is probably of similar proportions (albeit smaller dimensions), and yes, we can see only a very small portion of the wings from the flight deck. Perhaps no more than the outermost 4 - 5 feet, plus winglets. Obviously nigh on impossible to judge the state of the upper wing surface across the majority of it's span.

[anotherglassofwine]

Would it make sense to install Camera's at the base of wing to aid with issues like this? Surely for parking the bigger jets not being able to see the wingtips must make life difficult ... or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?
Remember chatting to an a340 pilot after a flight (think it was Virgin) about the tail camera and he seemed to feel that aside from passenger enjoyment the camera aided the taxi ..

[Contacttower]

Virtually all modern large jet aircraft do not permit flight crew to see the wings, or even wing-tips from the flight deck. Virtually all modern large jet aircraft do not permit flight crew to see the wings, or even wing-tips from the flight deck.
Perhaps then when snow is falling a quick check of the wings backwards out of the DV windows prior to departure may be prudent? I don't know how practical that would be?

[TightSlot]

In my experience, when this situation arises, pilots will often simply walk back into the cabin and take a look - I have known this accompanied by an explanatory PA, or just a brief explanation to interested pax seated locally. Cabin Crew have also been asked to check (older, more experienced crew) that de-icing has been completed i.e. that it is not still in progress.

[skeletor]

If you see anything that concerns you as a passenger then you should allways mention it.

It's doesn't happen very often but I welcome any passengers reporting concerns observed while boarding and I will allways make a point of going to have a good look......

(i) you never know

(ii) passengers reassured

.........all part of the service.

[manintheback]

Not that long ago I was happily into my 2nd G&T on a flight to Milan in winter and noticed a patch of ice froming on the inside cabin mouldings down by my left knee. Didnt think too much of it for a while but as it grew finally thought I would tell the CC as she passed my seat and did so in a light hearted manner and without anyone else being aware.
CC did a quick call to the Captain who didnt think it was anything much but came and had a look anyway. Told me I was right to raise it.
By that time we were at the start of descent so guess if it had been a problem we would have just had to lived with it until normal landing anyway.

[The Real Slim Shady]

On the 737NG we can see the winglets and a small section of the leading edge.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/av8tor100/winglet.jpg

[TightSlot]

standing corrected :)

[The Real Slim Shady]

Tightslot,

Sorry I wasn't trying to be a smart 8rse; a picture is worth a thousand words etc and it may help the original poster.