AirservicesAustralia wants Overtime to be compulsory

[undervaluedATC]

I'm starting this thread with a post I already put in another because people have a habit of just remembering the headline and forgetting the story, and I want people focussing on a real issue, rather than some fictious "renegade controllers" [that TFN, aka Gregg Russell, seems to be intent on creating (see below) so that he has someone else to blame for this mess]

Rationing the skies
Ben Sandilands writes:
Source: Crikey.com.au (11 August 2008)
So much for "renegade" air traffic controllers causing chaos in the skies.

On Friday at its Melbourne centre AirServices Australia offered ATC officers three hours extra pay per shift at "additional duty" rates just to be rostered in advance as on-call replacements for anyone who reports absent for work, mainly during evenings or over weekends.

In recent days the chief executive officer of AirServices Australia, Greg Russell, has been blaming ‘renegades’ for calling in sick to add pressure to pay negotiations.

Civil Air, the union, has maintained the real problem is Russell’s incompetence in recruiting and training staff during a period of high attrition due to retirements or better job opportunities abroad.

An official summary of that collective negotiation meeting is here for those who want to study a management trying to buy its way out of a human resources crisis of its own making.

At the same time AirServices was forced to agree to CASA demands for a rationing of controlled air space by a procedure for declaring "temporarily restricted areas" when there are insufficient controllers available to man the radar consoles responsible for the safe separation of aircraft between or near major Australian cities.

Under the current stop gap measures both AirServices and CASA had tried to maintain the fiction that international, domestic and private aircraft could be safely left to control their own ‘separation’ in a free-for-all situation that led to angry protests from the airlines.

That fiction is now over, after CASA officers saw first hand how risky the process was, and Qantas, Virgin Blue and the International Civil Aviation Organisation went public with their concerns.

If some tricky details can be ironed out airliners approaching zones where AirServices can’t provide service will have to apply for permission to enter, meaning rationing can be enforced to keep jets very far apart.

The "tricky" part is international air space. Australia has the responsibility to control large areas of Oceanic airspace. Jets that are mid way along very long flights to Australia cannot be denied access to "temporarily" restricted zones without compromising the compulsory fuel reserves they carry for bad weather diversions at their arrival point.

A spokesman for CASA said a starting time for the new ‘temporary’ arrangements cannot be announced unless this problem is overcome.
These two developments should be a wake up call to Treasury if not Infrastructure. AirServices is a substantial profit centre for government.
Now it is proposing money for nothing for staff just to be available for duty, and being compelled to further reduce its air traffic revenues by diverting, or denying access to, the airliners that are its customers.

And in case you missed the embedded link to the official summary (or the crikey site is slow) it contains this little proposal in relation to "reasonable overtime": - which AsA would like us to agree to, PRIOR to the expiration of our current EBA in December.

1. There is an obligation on air traffic controllers to perform reasonable overtime where operational requirements make it necessary.

2. That obligation entails an expectation that ATCs will be contactable by telephone and if calls are missed, to call back promptly after the call from Airservices has been received. An ATC should only remain uncontactable or unable to respond promptly where there are special reasons for this being so.

3. Subject to paragraphs 4 and 5, ATCs will agree to work an additional shift or hours when requested to do so.

4. If the ATC has already worked an average of one or more additional hours shift per fortnight in the 30 day period preceding the request or no less than an average of 7 additional hours per fortnight in the 30 day period preceding the request, they shall be entitled to decline the request.

5. Further, Airservices will not require an ATC to perform an additional shift or additional hours if Airservices is satisfied that there are substantial and compelling reasons which make it reasonable for them not to be required to do so.

6. If an ATC does not agree to a request to work an additional shift and neither of the conditions mentioned in paragraphs 4 or 5 exist, Airservices shall be entitled to take appropriate disciplinary action in relation to their conduct.


So effectively, they want me to be on call, always contactable, and presumably not travel too great a distance away from work on my supposed days off.

And if I have the temerity to refuse to do an overtime shift, and they don't like my reason for not doing so (eg: " I just want a day off") , they want to be able to PUNISH ME.

how's that for work/life balance?http://www.civilair.asn.au/smf/Smileys/default/huh.gifhttp://www.civilair.asn.au/smf/Smileys/default/huh.gif

[undervaluedATC]

and this has come to the attention of Dan Brown

(From Don Brown's Blog (http://gettheflick.*************/))

Monday, August 11, 2008
Fly By Night


Tell me, when was the last time you stayed up all night long ? I’m not talking about your all-night partying type of all night long. I’m talking about sitting through the wee hours of the morning, standing watch over a sick child or other loved one. I’m talking about staying up all night and paying attention. Not for the fun of it but because you have to do it.

It isn’t much fun is it ? Anyone that has done it and is over 40 knows that it actually hurts.

Let’s say it’s 9 o’clock at night. You’ve had a long day, you’re just settling in to watch the TV and the phone rings. It’s your boss and he wants you to show up in two hours to cover the midnight shift. What do you say ? Do you think the extra money would offset the pain of staying up all night long, ruining your night and probably whatever plans you had for the next day and night ?

As most of you have already guessed, we’re not talking about just anybody. We’re talking about air traffic controllers. So, there are a couple of other factors you have to throw in. First, if you had a glass of wine with dinner, you’re disqualified. You can’t come in and you’d be fired if you did. Now you’re not talking about messing up your life but possibly ending the lives of others. If you got up even as late as 7 AM that means you’ll be controlling traffic during the next morning’s rush hour without having slept in 24 hours. Is that safe ? It’s not even smart.

And then it occurs to you, the guy on the phone is the one that won’t let you take a nap on your break. As a matter of fact, he’ll try to get you fired if you do fall asleep at 4 AM. He’s the guy that won’t raise your pay. He’s the guy that says “good riddance” when the senior controllers retire early. He’s the guy that has scheduled you for overtime 6 weeks in a row. He’s the guy that keeps lying to the public, telling them that they don’t need to hire any controllers, which is the reason he’s bothering you at home on your time off, trying to ruin even more of your time off.

What would you say to the guy on the other end of the phone ?

If you were Australian, you’d tell him, “No”.

Good for them.

Don Brown
August 11, 2008



Now, the point I'm trying to make here is:

Do anyone think it's a good idea for Air Traffic Controllers to do an extra 2 shifts a month before they can say no? (this would mean that they only have 2 two day breaks a month)

Now in my group, most of the controllers have to work all night, every six nights, week after week.

The usual shift run (say it starts on a monday)
mon 1500-2300
tues 1130-1930
wed morn 0600-1315
wed night 2330 - 0615 thurs morn.
As you can see, there is reducign periods of time in between shifts, leading up to the night shift.

This is followed by two days off (eg Fri & Sat). And that's the period where we are expected to work the overtime.

So, when do we catch up on our sleep? Or see our family?

[wesky]

This is all to very similar to the whole Train Crossing boom gate issue. The Gov' will only take appropriate action once a substantial accident has happened at a crossing - this has to happen atleast a couple of times before they consider putting in gates.

What I am getting at here is that I am guessing that AsA/Infrastructure is waiting for things to go really bad before they do anything to prevent such an event - milking it for what it's worth, one could say.

So, the question is - how long until something happens? We have ATC already working their butts off and now AsA are wanting to promote a policy that is none short of policies used by communist states!

Moving forward. Let us say we do what AsA 'heads' want us to do; work the usual + minimum 2 shifts extra without question. Going by current practice, the chance of NOT getting bugged at 4am in the morning, having a scheduled day off etc etc is slim Anyways, what I am getting at here is that I don't even know of a third world Country that employs 1 employee for 24hours a day - how the hell does AsA plan to achieve this?

What is the game plan? How can AsA cope without increasing headcount? Is there a way to do it with without slamming aircraft in to the ground or in to other aircraft for that matter? Quite clearly, AsA is NOT interested in increasing headcount so we need to help find another way around this mess.

& I know how...

[Jerricho]

That is seriously screwed up.

Who's the mental giant that came up with that one?

[undervaluedATC]

The usual shift run (say it starts on a monday)
mon 1500-2300
tues 1130-1930
wed morn 0600-1315
wed night 2330 - 0615 thurs morn.
As you can see, there is reducign periods of time in between shifts, leading up to the night shift.

This is followed by two days off (eg Fri & Sat). And that's the period where we are expected to work the overtime

I know I'm quoting myself, but I forgot to add something, and did'nt want to edit the post. (in spite of the typing error!)

In actual fact, regarding the period where we are expected to do overtime, AsA actually includes the the afternoon following the night you've been awake all night! (or, Thursday afternoon/night in the example above) Now, in fairness, AsA will normally call everyone else on a day off first, but if they all say no, or are uncontactable, you will be called to try to prevent service interruptions.

That's right, it's perfectly legal :confused: (and some people do, for their own reasons :ugh:) to come back in the afternoon, (a mininum of) 8 hours after their night shift finished, and work an overtime shift, up to 10 hours in length (but usually 7 or 8).

And our "fatigue management software" says its okay, so long as I've "really, truly, I-swear-I-did-officer" slept for 4 to 5 hours in between returning to work. Or if I'm really lucky, it'll also say if I do this shift, I can't do anymore overtime for a few days :rolleyes:

[Bill Woodfull]

wesky, what you are referring to is "tombstone regulation".

My question is who is going to go to be in the dock if the worst happens (eg a Lake Constance)? Is the media going to ask the hard questions of the Minister, the CEOs of CASA and the CEO of AsA? Could the families of the dead start pointing fingers at the 4th estate for not uncovering the true staffing situation, the rostering practices, just swallowing the spin?

Some light reading...
Tombstone Mentality | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationnow.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=bca&id=news/bca0608p2.xml&headline=Tombstone%20Mentality)


In today's complicated world, it is rarely easy or inexpensive to enact proactive safety measures before the tombstones are erected. It takes strong leaders, motivation and a willingness of various entities with vested interests to collaborate and sometimes compromise in order to make necessary changes. Often times progress seems to move at a snail's pace -- that is, until a bystander records a tragedy's unfolding sequence on a cell-phone camera to share with the world within minutes through the Internet and cable systems. A flurry of fixes may follow, but for those experiencing the tragedy, that's too late.

Yes, it's complicated and sometimes more costly to adopt proactive safety measures, but the price of deny, delay and counter-accusations can be much higher, and that's something we shouldn't be willing to bear nor tolerate.

"If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident".

[Lodown]

Lawyer for the Plaintiff: "You knew you were tired, yet you came in for overtime anyway? Is that correct?"

ATC Defendant: "Yes, but my employer required it."

Lawyer: "Required it? Do you take your responsibilities seriously, or do you just do what any person tells you to do regardless of the consequences?"

ATC: "I take my responsibilities seriously!"

Lawyer: "You sure have a funny way of showing it. My client is seeking damages. You can kiss your assets goodbye."


I can't see this overtime proposal standing up to any serious challenge. It's ridiculous in the extreme.

[ferris]

This is all to very similar to the whole Train Crossing boom gate issue. With one big difference: The boom gates have a say in this.

Without raising the spectre of an accident, keeping it purely economic, why doesn't the association negotiate an arrangement with AsA that will please all parties? You are always going to get people prepared to work OT -why not get paid at a rate that
1. makes it attractive enough to warrant the personal intrusions/health issues/etc etc.
2. makes it economically unpalatable for AsA to run it's business this way. Surely it's obvious that if it is dearer to run short-staffed and use lots of overtime than employ adequate staff numbers, then AsA will employ the numbers (which will lead to other issues- but that's why they get paid the big bucks in management).

I would think that $3000 per shift would be reasonable, but you could go for more. I mean, it's only for a short time (facilitative arrangement), right? Right? Stop working for less than you are worth.

[Quokka]

Ferris is right. Allow the true value of your work to be reflected in the contract. Demand four days off after every night shift rostered or worked as overtime... why? Because the research supports it and the legislation requires you to be Fit For Duty. This isn't a Public Service "Fat Cat" condition-of-service... it's a fact of science... and a moral and legal responsibility.

Stop being tired... stop taking the risk.

[SM4 Pirate]

Lawyer for the Plaintiff: "You knew you were tired, yet you came in for overtime anyway? Is that correct?"

ATC Defendant: "Yes, but my employer required it."

Lawyer: "Required it? Do you take your responsibilities seriously, or do you just do what any person tells you to do regardless of the consequences?"

ATC: "I take my responsibilities seriously!"

Lawyer: "You sure have a funny way of showing it. My client is seeking damages. You can kiss your assets goodbye."

ATC: "I take my responsibilities very seriously, but in 2008 my employer required me to attend extra duty at least once a fortnight on average. I had little mechanism to refuse the duty as my sick leave credits, reduced to 15 a year in late 2008 expired in mid 2009."

Lawyer: "So you must be a very sick person if you've used all your leave in less than 6 months, that's three times the benchmark"

ATC: "Well I had a hernia operation and was off work for 12 days in January; I've only had 3 other days leave in 6 months, but I have no sick credits left. Every sick day now costs me a days pay, and you know the mortgage and all, well I had to soldier on, I thought I was ok, honest."

[noknead]

Think of it this way.......

If overtime becomes compulsory, then technically it's just part of the roster, so does that mean as part of the roster, it's no longer overtime? :confused::confused::confused:

:* I once asked (read challenged) a manager/team leader/ALM (whatever) about our staffing along the lines of.........

"Gee, with all the overtime/AD's we've done in the last financial year, added up, makes up for two fully rated, full time staff!!!!
Why don't we just get two more people out of the next batch from the college? After a couple of weeks/months, our staff problem should be solved!!" :D:D:D:D

Answer: Extra duty comes out of a different bucket. Our group is next to be downsized. No, 'cause we're taking more airspace, Joe Bloggs is going to APP/TWR/retire and other groups are worse off than us. :sad: :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Can I just give up and go home? No you have to extend 'cause there is no one left for the doggo!:(:(:(

[Capn Bloggs]

The usual shift run (say it starts on a monday)
mon 1500-2300
tues 1130-1930
wed morn 0600-1315
wed night 2330 - 0615 thurs morn.

If I'm being controlled by somebody doing this week in week out, I'm not impressed.:(

[Howabout]

I hope you guys win out eventually. As SLF, when I have to travel outside my own patch, I don't appreciate the fact that an organisation that is supposed to be primarily safety-orientated is run like a 'business'.

Maybe the journos will finally appreciate (and this is just my opinion) that this is looking more and more like a 'smoke and mirrors' act regarding the bunch of 'renegades'. My recent contact with an AIPA rep confirmed that they are not 'happy-chappies' when it comes to TIBA. One can only trust that someone will see through the spin.

Having said that, the 7.30 Report was bloody shallow and disappointing.

[9Ws]

What does anyone know about the new recruitment of controllers with prior experience (applications for that post closed last weekend), such as those from overseas with a fair few years of controlling expereince behind them AND have the right to work and live in Oz?

[Driscoll]

Ferris, do you think if AsA are trying to negotiate this that they are willing to up the OT rate, I think not.

The difference between the BS that TFN trots out in correspondence and to 'stakeholders' and the lipservice he pays to solving serious and legitimate problems is astounding.

AsA has acknowledged a reliance on OT yet wants to make it compulsory for staff to attend, claiming an additional 10% of hours is reasonable. Not to me it ain't. At the same time he talks about his commitment to staff and making AsA a great place to work.

He continues to blame controllers for not coming in even on fully staffed groups and thinks this strategy will solve the problem.
The stupid thing is there is a legitimate solution. The current CA already includes provisions to roster staff for grey days so that there are no service interruptions when someone goes sick, the only problem. Not enough staff to roster it.

[Bill Woodfull]

I want to know when I can stop all the...

"Redjet10, divert left of track as required, report clear of the weather and able to take vectors for the ILS, maintain xxx due opposite direction departing traffic also diverting"

"Bluejet20 divert right of track as required, stop the climb at amended yyy (-1000 of xxx above) due opposite direction traffic..."

"Foreignjet30 cancel star, I'm bringing you up in the sequence, fly heading xxx, descend to xxxx, maintain speed xxx knots"

.....and be on the gravy train that I can be photographed half pissed on the front of Azimuth (with a tie on) whilst someone somewhere is getting hassled on the phone for another AD (whilst his wife and kids are glaring at him after promising them a family night in) or a chunk of Australia's airspace is in the throes of going TIBA AND be completely guilt free.

[undervaluedATC]

Quote:
The usual shift run (say it starts on a monday)
mon 1500-2300
tues 1130-1930
wed morn 0600-1315
wed night 2330 - 0615 thurs morn.

CAPN BLOGGS: If I'm being controlled by somebody doing this week in week out, I'm not impressed.:(

not to worry Capn Bloggs, every 2nd cycle is (following on from the above example)
Sun 1300-2100
Mon 0700-1500
Tues morn 0500-1200
Tuesday night 2245 - 0515 Wed morn

nothing like variety, eh?

When I tried to make a roster that was not crammed together, because of our groups requirement for two people on the night shift, it usually meant finishing at 2300 last day, back 0500 1st day, or having single days off - and either option makes overtime even more unpleasant.

of course that would'nt be a problem if we had enough staff.

[Howabout]

Nice to see Capn Bloggs weighing into the debate. He's a grumpy bugger, but good value.

[RAAFASA]

What does anyone know about the new recruitment of controllers with prior experience (applications for that post closed last weekend), such as those from overseas with a fair few years of controlling expereince behind them AND have the right to work and live in Oz?


Good bet that most of them are RAAFies.:ok:

[ferris]

Ferris, do you think if AsA are trying to negotiate this that they are willing to up the OT rate, I think not.
Driscoll, I may be missing something, but isn't that EXACTLY what AsA are doing- re-nogiating the OT rate?
OK, they haven't come out and offered an increase in the hourly rate per se- YET- but isn't that the effect of paying people to be available for OT?

Negotiating is what they are doing.

I really hope people see the power they hold right now to make some changes. HELP the organisation to make some BUSINESS DECISIONS- it is a business after all.

[9Ws]

What does anyone know about the new recruitment of controllers with prior experience (applications for that post closed last weekend), such as those from overseas with a fair few years of controlling expereince behind them AND have the right to work and live in Oz?


Good bet that most of them are RAAFies.


Most probably, but there are applications in from controllers from overseas who do have experience and the residence status in Oz.

Is the recruitment process going to be fair this time around? The HR-OPS divide was very apparent at the interviews going back a few years.

If yes, good luck to them. Will increase the numbers of controllers and reduce the shortage. Have already heard a few non-Aussie accents on the airwaves recently... and they are good.

[Driscoll]

ferris, I can't share your optimism I'm afraid, I can't see AsA budging from 1.85. The 3 hrs rubbish is just to make sure that they don't have interruptions as they continue to rely on OT.

NO WAY ASA, you forgot to mention that 6 months of blipping at 35k pa saves AsA having to employ actual blippies at 50k pa.
Now if only they can get some instructors.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

That cycle of shifts (or similar) has been worked for years. It is liked because it is effectively 4 on-4 off. Attempts were made to bring in a roster (prepared by physiologists) that worked opposite to that ie start early when you are freshest at the start of the cycle, starting progressively later as the cycle progressed to give you time to sleep in etc. and counter fatigue build-up. Noone wanted it because it meant you only got 2 days off (same as every one else).They then tried to move the doggo to the next day to avoid the short turnaround. Same problem. Eats into your days off, noone wanted it.

"Now in my group, most of the controllers have to work all night, every six nights, week after week"

It's called shift work. Most shift workers on a rotating roster would love only one night in six. And to be honest, it's not really ALL night is it?

[Bill Woodfull]

And to be honest, it's not really ALL night is it?
Like the Perth, Adelaide and Cairns Approach controllers are a single man/woman doggo on their pat malone all night in a remote environment?

The single person doggo, an Airservices specialty. To put two on a doggo would require 2 controllers per group. That would eat into the profits.

Look at the bull**** letter to industry when Fraser last went TIBA...single person doggo was not mentioned.

Single person night shifts. Good for your profits when you have lots of goodwill from those not quite 100% (in violation of CARS) to keep the ship sailing. When you bend staff over the table, when you threaten, when you lie, when you make money hand over fist and cry poor, where does goodwill go?

Traffic levels are up, staffing is down, whoops may have cut the rosters a bit tight and not training anyone for a while may have been an oversight but hey...look at the profits!!!

Traffic_Is_Er_Was say hello to every one at Spin City (AWB). Hope to see some new faces on the front of the next Azimuth (someone on his 7th shift in 144 hours minus an hour or so for FAID with his eyeballs hanging won't be trendy).:rolleyes:

[undervaluedATC]

It's called shift work. Most shift workers on a rotating roster would love only one night in six. And to be honest, it's not really ALL night is it?

actually, most shift workers prefer doing a cycle of nights because it means they don't have to do it again for a month or so, and they actually get into some kind of rhythm with their sleep cycles, instead of trying to sleep at a different time each day!

and yes, once you take in to account travelling time (an hour sounds fair) on either end of the shift, it is all bloody night!

so what part of the AWB do you work in, Traffic_Is_Er_Was?

ps. how the hell do you call 4 shifts over 4 days and 2 days off, rinse & repeat a basically 4on, 4off cycle

[Alien Role]

I believe , Ladies and Gentlemen of the ATC fraternity, that Lowdown is suggesting you not have any "assets" ie. that assets be in trusts or in the names of spouse / partner / children, because if you are involved in a serious incident that can be in anyway attributed to a failing on your part (including, simply being at work when fatigued), you can bet AsA and Government will point the finger and hang you out to dry.

Many professional pilots arrange their affairs in such a manner.

Role on....

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I don't work in AWB. I don't work for airservices now. But I did work similar rosters when I did. Everyone liked it because of the time off you got. Finishing early in the morning, having the rest of that day off, then 2 full days off, then not starting til mid afternoon the next is effectively 3.5 days off. We all knew it, as do you. How many guys fit in a round of golf before that 1500 start? That's why no-one wants to finish at 2300 on the last day and start at 0500 on the 1st, as you admitted.
I used to get a couple of hours sleep before the doggo, so I wasn't working "all night". Maybe you should try it.
These days I work a rotating roster still, including nights, so my sleep patterns still aren't the greatest, but they are 12 hour shifts, with an hours traveling either side. My days (and nights) are 14 hours. Also most shift workers do do their nights in cycles, however it is usually a lot more frequently than once a "month or so"
I'm not saying the organization is not understaffed, and that the remaining people are not being overused by management, but having seen things from both sides of the fence, you still don't have it so bad.

[tobzalp]

Have you been smoking crack?

Sounds like a failed controller who likely went into some back room position then got swept out to me.:rolleyes: I take it your rotating roster is selling petrol at the local Mobil now. Probably have a dubious grasp on that position skill wise as well I am betting.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Sounds more like I've touched a nerve

[undervaluedATC]

Traffic is er was: That's why no-one wants to finish at 2300 on the last day and start at 0500 on the 1st, as you admitted

No. What I said was that it makes overtime even less pleasant.
And do you think the managers were thrilled with that prospect?

Traffic is er was: I used to get a couple of hours sleep before the doggo, so I wasn't working "all night". Maybe you should try it.

you seem to ignore that fact that I have to work in the morning before the night shift. If I do manage to get a few hours sleep, even 4 say, by the time I finish the night shift, I've had 4 hours sleep in the last 24 or 25 hours. I certainly feel like I've been awake all night after that.

And I use my "3 and 1/2 days off" (as you put it) to catch up on my sleep and see my family, and try to meet my other commitments out side of work.

In your "wisdom", could you tell me how I can do that if the overtime was to become compulsory?

[makespeed250kt]

5 on 2 off, 4 on 3 off....who cares?

My biggests concern is how an organization, entrusted with maintaining the safety of our skies, can even contemplate coersing/forcing (call it what you want) it's operational staff into working overtime on top of an already exhausting shiftwork roster.

Gee! I wonder where that will end? :(:sad::eek:

[etz]

I am a controller who has worked both types of roster.
Give me start early, finish late every time. You don't realize how tired the start late finish early roster makes you until you have a week or so off and you notice how much better you feel not living with ongoing low level fatigue.

And as for having extra time off-you sacrifice, ease of shift swapping and being able to do anything meaningful within your shift run.

My next roster will be 2 mornings, 2 afternoons, 2 nights, rest day and then 3 days off. It will not be with Lipservices Australia.:ok:

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The compulsory O/T is a crock and I wholeheartedly support your opposition to it. It is obvioulsy management trying to cover their ar#e.
The sleep deficit is a problem on any roster that includes a transition to a night shift. What you don't want is someone working twice while coping with it. 25 years ago we were working such a roster. Surely by now there should be something better.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Sorry, just saw etz's post. Obviously there is something better. Perhaps if is less fatiguing, there are less sick days, and some of the overtime is now not required.

[Bill Woodfull]

The compulsory O/T is a crock
and that, dear friend, is the raison d'être of this thread - to alert our flying colleagues to this new tactic in the last grasp of ze straws from Spin City (before Big Tony attends the next board meeting with his kicking boots on).

Some of us don't accept some of the call-ins because we are just too tired and we know with some of the trivial and punitive reasons to be "stood-down" that if we lower our defences for an instant (eg I'm 80% not 100% alert) we are opening ourselves to risks to livelihood which in turn affects family etc etc.

If we have a string of incidents, we will get fired. If we have a string of incidents because we are tired and not on our A-game is utter stupidity because we will get hung out to dry.

I wholeheartedly support your opposition to it
Good onya and thanks.:D

The sleep deficit is a problem on any roster
Correct. We get paid a composite salary (inbuilt shift penalties) to work some crap hours and manage that fatigue. Shift work is part of aviation we can always leave if it gets too much.

To be commanded to work additional overtime, to be reprimanded and disciplined for refusing, to be reprimanded and disciplined for not being contactable is just bizarre (see straw+grasp etc above).

Traffic_Is_Er_Was. Sorry for assuming you worked in Spin City, it was a low and rather caddish accusation and comment on my part.

PS Just wait for the next annual report and try to match the money this mob makes with its recent actions and comments regarding compulsory call ins and match that with the previous comments that we have had an over reliance on overtime. When that happens and if anyone sees a logical connection between it all please advise what you smoked, swallowed, snorted, consumed, skulled etc so we can all also enter that altered state to experience such enlightenment.

[Showa Cho]

The large stick and no carrot approach is starting to pay off for AsA. In the last few days, the Irish Aviation Authority has interviewed about 27 controllers for positions in their centres. People I thought would never leave are lining up with their passports at the ready (people with 15 years plus experience - people you can't afford to lose). More pesky controllers off the books!

But recruiting will save the day.....oh, hang on, the latest bunch to arrive were told, in their first week, that they will not be starting course for 6 months and they will be simulator pilots in the interim. So another 6 months on trainee wage - about $35,000 p/a - for these poor sods. And they are trying to attract people with 'university qualifications and life/work experience'. Good luck with that!

Just how many does AsA claim they are going to train this year? 100 was it?

Yeah, right.

Thanks, AsA, for nearly killing my passion for aviation and ATC. Glad I'm leaving before you completely rob me of the love for the job I once had.

Sayonara and arigato,

Showa-Cho.

[SM4 Pirate]

I think our rosters do "maximise time off" in the main; most believe this is to maximise your recovery. All the available science tells us that most rosters worked in Oz are not the best way to do it.

As for having 4 on 4 off, well hardly. A late start on the first day is very common, but not the norm. A round of golf before work is rare from my read of things.

The squeezing OT into days off is debilitating as in this maximised down time rosters the inherent fatigue is very great, despite what FAID says. It wouldn't be so severe if it were the occasional morning or day shift, but mostly it's lates and nights, the worst for ongoing recovery.

In my experience the biggest obstacle to a reverse cycle roster has been management, as it limits the people available for their precious OT; ie it's harder to squeeze OT in and comply with PORs.

As for Doggo's not being all night, about 12 rosters from my quick examination, out of 30+ rosters that have greater than single staffing on night shifts; most of these rosters have more than one "due traffic", not fatigue; although there are a few (about 5) that appear to have 'breaks' on doggos; but is that unrealistic? It should be the norm to get a break on any shift, but particularly the night shift. It is IFALPA, Civil Air, IFATCA and ICAO policy to not have single person duty, ever.

The problem from a management view point is they are "paying" for effectively dual coverage and only getting single staffing; so it is about the money, not staff welfare. They claim 'making people' work extra night shifts is cruel and worse; but the reality is for everyone who has worked half a night shift instead of a whole night shift long term has a much better outlook on life. Sure there are some that prefer the latter, but the %'s are very low and usually it's people who don't have kids or significant family issues outside of work.

If they introduced 5 on 3 off rostering reverse cycle they might just have a win win, less fatigue, happier work environment and more available OT coverage?

Additionally if the OT rate was more beneficial to staff and thus more costly to management, there would be an instant push to really have full staffing as opposed to minimum or less than minimum staffing which is definitely the norm. Make OT more costly, does two things, give people more incentive to attend, gives management incentive to staff to realistic levels.

At the moment 1 OT a day on average is less costly than one extra staff member (you'd need an extra on every 'shift'). We don't average more than one a day in most groups; if it were reversed where having 3 extra staff was the same cost basis as one OT a day then you watch them get the three extra staff.

Lets not mention the "goodwill" extra staff (realistic minimum's) would bring and the consequential morale boost.

[Bill Woodfull]

Have a few 'incidents' or one Airprox because you're not playing your A-game due fatigue and...
Sayonara and arigato,
...to your career.

Are the HR departments of the IAA, DFS and Serco ME aware of this thread?

Serco Dubai and the IAA have plucked a few from the tree recently and I reckon there are 50 or so more ready and waiting. The 21st of December will be a watershed date in Australian Aviation.

The Royal Commission or The Inquiry* into the demise of Australian air navigation following some catastrophic event will be even more remembered.

* [I]Kyeema Inquiry (1938) and Lutana Inquiry (1948) come to mind.
http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/1998/nov/kyeema.pdf

The Lutana Inquiry led to a major review of ATC.
"No branch of the Commonwealth public service has a higher degree of public accountability". - D G Anderson

A branch of the Federal Govt making over a $100 million in annual profit probably wasn't as high a priority back then either.

[Howabout]

From the outside, this looks like a case of 'management' with fingers in ears, heads in the sand and bums against walls. Hoping like hell that nothing goes awry and that, with a bit of luck, they can scrape through. 'Just hold your nerve guys and we can bluff our way out of this.' Once again, this goes to the sheer idiocy of running a safety organisation on a commercial basis for a commercial return.

Where the hell are the hard-hitting investigative journalists, willing to do the research and ask the right questions? Maybe those animals don't exist anymore.

[Bill Woodfull]

Guilty air traffic controllers walk free after 71 die in crash - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2388371.ece)

2001 Japan Airlines mid-air incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Japan_Airlines_mid-air_incident)

1976 Zagreb mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Zagreb_mid-air_collision)

The No 1 in midairs:
1996 Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Charkhi_Dadri_mid-air_collision)

The No 1 in RWY:
Tenerife disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_disaster)

[undervaluedATC]

unfortunately crikey has stopped hosting the AsA proposal, but in case there are journos who downloaded it for future reference, I also wanted to point out that AsA is using statistics in way that works for them, rather than reflecting a more accurate picture.

AsA says that overall, in the past 12 months, ATC's only needed to work 1.1 extra shift a month (averaged across 9 groups ranging from 0.8 to 1.5)

As an aside - the period used included the last 6 months of 2007, BEFORE 107 CONTROLLERS WERE "PROMOTED" TO ALMS, and 6 months after we no longer had those people to work roster lines and overtime. No doubt that helped the averages.

As they say, there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. :mad:

Those 9 SDL (Service Delivery Line) groups AsA refer to have different numbers of ATC sector groupings that comprise them. Some of these groups are fully staffed ( - AsA says they are, anyway, in their shameful TIBA notification emails that we are not supposed to know about - ) and some groups are not fully staffed. Not even close.

For example, one particular group only has their roster published 3 weeks in advance, and the lastest 3 week period has THIRTY SHIFTS blank - before anyone goes sick!

So the reason I'm getting upset about this push for compulsory overtime is that some people will have to do none, and other poor sods will be doing at least 2 extra a month, and probably more.

[Howabout]

I'd put a scenario to the controllers and I don't think it's unrealistic.

Let's say a controller was managing traffic and made an error, due fatigue or some other reason, which resulted in two aircraft narrowly missing - and I may have been SLF on one of those.

My understanding is that the controller involved would be stood down, counselled and then, re-trained/re-qualified after an investigation.

The huge problem that I have is that in the same piece of airspace, a week, a month, a year later, another controller commits the same error, but the outcome is not one of a miss.

The second guy is then on the rack, having made an identical error, but is then the subject of media scrutiny. I imagine that there'd be TV cables all over his lawn, his kids would be harrassed at school once the 'facts' came out, his wife would be abused and he'd be subject to death threats from the nutters. The only recourse would be going to the library and 'doing the right thing Carruthers.'

That's the problem I have with your current predicament - someone (potentially) is going to be a sacrificial lamb if the fertilizer hits the fan.

[Driscoll]

Let's make sure one thing is clear here, AsA claims staffing issues will be under control in a month. If this is true why do they need this? The current CA has a provision for the rostering of Stand By shifts. If staffing is going to be resolved in a month they can exercise this clause. Unless of course TFN is just spinning more BS and staffing won't be fixed in a month.

[Quokka]

It's true. But Oz could go one better than here if they adopted the same roster as the Middle East... because they would only have to do one doggo instead of two per cycle... rostering Nirvana... locked in by contract, can't be amended, includes Grey Days which remove the requirement for overtime.

You can plan your life twelve months in advance and live it.

[Pera]

Practically every group is now working rosters that are OUTSIDE of the Certified Agreement :ugh:

Why does the union allow this?

[No Further Requirements]

Most of the 'outside of the agreement' rosters are small additions to hours. My roster has 15 mins tacked onto an 8 hour shift here and there to acquit the required time over the roster's period. I'd rather be rostered for the 15 mins a couple of times a week than work a whole extra shift somewhere.

Cheers,

NFR.

[undervaluedATC]

AnSA: Every single Aussie who has come to the Middle East and worked the 2 mornings, 2 afternoons, 2 nights, sleep day, 3 days off has vowed never to go back to the EAMN killer.

6 shifts over 10 days? sounds great! and that would actually allow work/life balance......
but then AsA would need even more staff.
as it stands, on average we poor aussies work 8 shifts over ten days.

While we're discussing things that are a good idea in the name of saftey, does the general public know some ASP's overseas have two sets of eyes watching the airspace instead of just one person?
I reckon there's a good safety case for DOUBLING the number of controller's right there.

but again, there's bugger all chance of management agreeing to that. (or if they did, they'd just want us to work 4 OT's a month instead of 2 :rolleyes:)

[Quokka]

Middle East roster cycle = 219 shifts rostered per year, including occasional Grey Evenings (potential to be called in for a doggo)... no overtime.

Australian, 4 on - 2 off, roster = 244 shifts rostered per year... plus rostered overtime shifts... plus phoned on your rostered days off to attend for additional duty.

This is the best opportunity you will ever have to stop the rot of rostering in ATC in Australia.

Change your conditions of service for the better... change your life for the better... :ok:

[Rule3]

On average 180 shifts per year:D 2M2A2NSOOO, :ok:No :mad:tax, Simple equation, come play in the Sandpit, before all the buckets and spades are taken.:ok:

[undervaluedATC]

Middle East roster cycle = 219 shifts rostered per year, including occasional Grey Evenings (potential to be called in for a doggo)... no overtime.

Australian, 4 on - 2 off, roster = 244 shifts rostered per year... plus rostered overtime shifts... plus phoned on your rostered days off to attend for additional duty.

and maybe I'm pointing out the obvious, but you forgot to mention that in the ME, 6 days recreation leave gets you 12 days off.
here in Oz, it only gets you 10.

And feedback from the so-called negotiation meeting yesterday indicates that AsA is still pushing for obligatory overtime, reduced sick leave, and the ability to roster up to 10 hour shifts :{

[Funk]

Off topic but we (UAE Serco) get 56 calendar days per calendar year, so 10 rec leave days will get you 13 days off or if the SATCO is nice like we got now pukker, suck suck kiss kiss ..I got 15 days for 10 rec leave days (by moving your cycle forward by 2 days).

It isn't all roses the unit was on a 6/3 6/3 6/1 cycle when I first got here 3 years ago when they were very short of staff.

With regards to compulsory o/t I was guilty of accepting every o/t I could get (315hrs over 18 months) which cost me my 2nd marriage and in the long run ironically lead me here to the ME where I enjoy better shift conditions.

My dad worked 21 days straight in the early eighties (he took every o/t he could get) and if it weren't for our team mates parents my brother and I would have never made it to any of our U17's RDFL footy away games that season.

[Quokka]

Yes, definitely work too much... but a bucket of Leave coming my way soon... :ok:

Recreational Leave intentionally left out of the equation... roster template calculation only.

With Recreation Leave it's something like this...

I'll use the Middle East worst case scenario of 48 calendar days Leave in the Oman contract...

Actual shifts worked, including leave:

Middle East 171 shifts pa. (if leave is taken in fortnightly blocks)

Australia 216 shifts plus rostered overtime plus additional duty on days off.

[Bill Woodfull]

ANSA,

No one will go to the sand without due diligence.

People ARE hitting the bricks for Ireland and your next round of pay increases will see another wave (as opposed to your current trickle).

The mandarins at Spin City talk of the woes of QF and we have an oil tracker on our avnet at work (don't laugh I'm serious).

Al Maktoum my friend. The idiots at Spin City would not know who, what or what it will entail.

You will need Tower, Approach and Enroute bods like I would say 150+.

They have no idea.

[Kuntrol_Freek]

Well Gentlemen,
I am not sure whether to curse you all or thank you. Having followed the various threads on PPrune relating to working in Oz for AsA I have decided to WITHDRAW my application.

I am one of those ex Oz controllers who defected many years ago to try my lot overseas. Last year, after much consideration, I decided that for family reasons it might be time to return home. I applied for a position in the "Global Search for ATC's" and was called for an interview.
Unfortunately 20+ years Australian ATC experience followed by more years in the ME and Far East were apparently insufficient to gain employment in the organisation and I was told that I was not wanted - I did query them at the intervew about my age but was told that age was not a barrier to re-employment.

Since then I have been if not bombarded, then certainly showered, with emails asking me to re-apply, with varying explanations as to why i should.
Being a sucker for punishment I did reapply and when filling out the application decided that, if I was to go back, I only wanted to work in one of the more desireable locations in Australia - No! not Brisbane or Mel Centres :)
I did not expect a reply given my rather unreasonable (to some) request but lo and behold I did get a reply along with a request for evidence of residency etc.

After much consideration of my position and reading of these forums i have come to 2 conclusions.
1) I do not want to jump from the QE3 onto the Titanic.
2) I do not believe that AsA would honour any location offer made to entice me, once I had signed on the dotted line.

One point I would like to make to you all is this.
Whilst it is well and good that the information relating to this situation is discussed and made available to all, it can be self defeating. You guys are working your ar5e5 off and desperate to get more staff to join AsA to provide eventual relief to the staff situation but the constant complaining and running down of your employer and its disorganisation and bad management don't exactly provide a rosy picture to anybody contemplating the leap.

Good Luck guys. It increasingly looks like you are going to need it.

KF
Bring back DCA :O

[undervaluedATC]

One point I would like to make to you all is this.
Whilst it is well and good that the information relating to this situation is discussed and made available to all, it can be self defeating. You guys are working your ar5e5 off and desperate to get more staff to join AsA to provide eventual relief to the staff situation but the constant complaining and running down of your employer and its disorganisation and bad management don't exactly provide a rosy picture to anybody contemplating the leap.

well, it seems to have worked for the Ireland guys.

This is not complaining.

This protesting against the proposal that overtime becomes compulsory.

Journos have happily quoted an anonymous post from more than 12 months ago that led to the "renegade" assumption. I just thought maybe they might like some real information.

And when the CEO of the company publicly calls us:
"renegades" and/or "shirkers";
and internally infers that we are not "decent or professional" if we do not accept overtime....

well, I don't think I'm damaging our reputation as much as some. :ugh:

[flightfocus]

If there IS anyone reading this thread thinking of an ATC career, then I offer you my humble 2 cents worth.

The JOB is fantastic. Very rewarding, challenging and a great sense of camaraderie. Each day is different and provides a constantly changing and fluid set of circumstances for you to "control". That is the good.

The bad is that we have arguably the worst senior management in Australia. It is unbelievable the lengths they go to crush, trample and generally piss off their work force. Now before we all get carried away, of course I am generalising, but only just.

Speak to any controller working for Lipservices and they will more than likely tell you that the love of the job is immense. And we are all constantly dumbfounded that they are unable to engage the staff and foster what should be the worlds greatest job.

We SHOULD love the company. They SHOULD realise the asset they have in their staff and look after them. It is not rocket surgery. Look after your staff, they look after your customers and your shareholders are happy.

Best recent example is the CEO of Air NZ Rob Fyfe who turned morale around by focusing on staff and not treating them as the enemy at every possible opportunity.

Now, hopefully that will give you an insight as to why me - and plenty of people like me - are actively seeking employment overseas. Even if the conditions and mgt are EXACTLY the same, at least you will being paid closer to your worth.

Joe Public needs to understand that the impending retirements with the older generation (who are better off $ wise by retiring at 50) and the disenchantment of the newer staff is going to leave a big hole in Australian Aviation in general. The older crowd are the keepers of the experience and the skills, the newer, younger ones wont put up with the sh#t.

OK, now run off and put in your application. We need you.

[max1]

The goss from ML centre is, they are so short staffed that people are doing simulator Canberra Approach training without instructors.
I'm wondering if they get to write their own daily debriefing? "Geez, I did well today"

[ER_BN]

Max 1,

Like your style! Hey that's a sneaky way to get rid of the SSOs, what with no instructor you could just pretend your heard pilot responses!!

Apparently they are so short staffed down south that there are two realities....

1/. Rostered training in the ML SIM

2/. Actual training in the ML SIM!!!!

With so much rostered no one can get a seat except when it comes down to actually happening, oh dear cancelled again!

Cleaner has to brush the tumbleweeds away each evening!

Wonder if the new supersim from Thales has been sprayed against cobwebs!!

[Bill Woodfull]

When you are training in "live" traffic:

OJTI (spraying coffee): Who [expletive] well told you you could do that? Who said that you could give an aircraft THAT requirement (muttering something about kick someone's something)!!

Trainee: Errrr I taught myself and it worked OK in the sim...

[undervaluedATC]

The reason behind starting this thread is not going away.

from www.civilair.asn.au/joomla (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla) (my bolding for emphasis)

AIRSERVICES SEEKS MANDATORY OVERTIME PROVISIONS
Press Release
October 13, 2008

AIRSERVICES SEEKS MANDATORY OVERTIME PROVISIONS
A primary plank of Labor’s successful Federal election campaign platform was based on the premise that Workchoices removed basic rights of employees.

In an eerie echo of a nightmare scenario portrayed by the ACTU last year, Airservices Australia is today seeking that Air Traffic Controllers be compelled to work on days off whenever required by their management.

Air Traffic Controllers agree that reasonable overtime should be worked in accordance with the provisions agreed by their employer and in common with every other workplace in Australia. These provisions provide checks and balances that support the safety and health of the individual whilst recognising that our families are important. The current agreement states specifically:
We expect that you will work a reasonable amount of additional hours if the requirement becomes necessary. You may choose not to work additional hours in circumstances where the working of such hours would result in you working hours which are unreasonable after consideration of:

(a) Any risk to your health and safety;
(b) Your personal circumstances including any family responsibilities;
(c) The needs of the workplace;
(d) The notice given by us and by you of your intention to choose not to work the additional hours; and
(e) Any other relevant matter.

The current agreement implicitly recognises that employees may choose not to work. Airservices seeks to amend this such that the sole arbiter of whether a refusal to work overtime is “reasonable” rests with Airservices management. Such a change would effectively put ATCs on call for duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The move, if successful, places Air Traffic Controllers in a position of indentured servitude at the beck and call of their employer.

Further, the agreed wording of the current agreement implies that the requirement will not always be necessary. Already the institutionalised use of overtime to keep a failing system afloat has controllers near breaking point. Almost every day off is interrupted by multiple calls to come to work. Airservices is publicly telling media that there is now no shortage of Air Traffic Controllers. This is simply a lie.

Morale amongst Air Traffic Controllers is at an all time low. Many have applied for, and won, jobs overseas. Increasing numbers are taking up these positions simply to get away from the caustic working relationship that Airservices seems to be deliberately developing as an industrial tactic. We’ve all seen the humorous poster “Beatings will continue until morale improves.” Welcome to Air Traffic Control in Australia.
Fatigue and stress related illnesses are on the increase. Airservices Australia has recently had to pay increased worker’s compensation insurance premiums due to increased claims. Controllers do their very best to support the travelling public. You are not informed of the significant overtime worked and short notice changes to rosters that are being accommodated across Australia on a daily basis. What you are seeing is a desperate employer constantly blaming its staff for the long term neglect of a system critical to the safety of the Australian public.

Robert Mason
President, Civil Air
October 13, 2008
Media enquiries should be directed to: Robert Mason, President 0403 153 400; or
Peter McGuane, Executive Secretary 0412 538 336

[Jamitupyr]

Not only is Airservices seeking compulsory overtime, but they are effectively offering a "pay cut" in their current EBA negotiations.

Airservices has two main agreements covering its staff, one for technical and admin staff (known as TAS/Corportate) agreement - it includes schedules for ARFF and AusFIC and another for ATCs.

The "offer" for TAS/Corp including AusFIC is that staff will be required to work an extra 2 hours per week. This represents for shiftworkers approx a 5.1% increase in actual working hours. For this Airservices is offering 4% on signing and 2% each six months. Not only is this a paycut, but the existing profit sharing of 1% once per year is goooorne.

This is effectively institutional overtime that they see as "productivity". It is merely staff working longer. It does not represent any real productivity, say by improved process, or efficiency or with less staff numbers. Once one takes of the "extra" income of the 2 additional hours per week, and then applies the pay rise of 4% to the hourly rate of pay - it is truly a pay cut!!!

Because the canberra boffins want to shut the place down over xmas they have in recent years forced staff to take approx 2 days leave during this period - well now they are offering a credit of 2 days - that one will still be forced to take if you are an admin worker.

They must be living on another planet, if they think that staff will buy this.