Ex RAF/ forces people- Is the grass greener?

[Kengineer-130]

Hi guys, I am due out at my 12 year point in 2.8 years, which leaves me just enough time to get licenced. How is the outside world compared to the forces? Obviously Pay is a fair bit better, but what are the employment oppertunities like, are you happier working for civil aviation companies than you were in the forces? How do conditions or anything else you can think of compare? :ok:

[timothy taylor]

I left the RAF ten years ago having done twelve years as a rigger on tornadoes. The difference between the RAF and civil aviation is that it is up to YOU how far you go in your career and not the system. The money is far better but you earn it. With a couple of years to go, get on with your licence studies and hit the ground running when you leave.

[camlobe]

Hi Kengineer-130.
Did 18 and have been out 12. Went contracting, then worked for two different 145 Approved organisations, both as Chief Engineer, then freelanced for a couple of years. Have been running my own 145 business for 4 1/2 years now.

Based on the above mil and civvy experience, I can advise you only from my own learning curve.

Contracting
1) the money can be brilliant, but only if you are contracting as a licenced engineer with appropriate type ratings. Without a licence and type ratings, the money is still better than the mob.
2) the people you will be working alongside (contractors) will represent the whole spectrum of humanity, both the best parts, and the most dilusional and incapable liars etc.
3) you can be living out of your suitcase in various parts of the world, only now you chose where you want to go.
4) there is no 'career structure'.
5) with the right licence coverage and good reputation built up, you can decide if you want to work all year round or not.
6) no pension unless you take out a private plan.
7) if the market slumps, it could be some time before your next well-paid contract. The rates are market led.
8) you could get 'blown out' at any time. Stay in touch with the agencies all the time. i.e. every day.
9) there could be a better contract elsewhere. Stay in touch with the agencies all the time. i.e. every day.
10) management WILL try and roll you over at every opportunity. See 7 below.

Permanent positions
1) same hangar floor every day.
2) same faces every day.
3) same work every day.
4) reasonable wages (remember, small aircraft = small wages).
5) there is no 'career structure'.
6) there may be a 'with contributions' pension plan available.
7) management WILL try and roll you over at every opportunity. Stick to your guns. The company pays your wages, but the CAA issue your licence, and they can take it away far quicker than you earned it.

It is not bad once you appreciate the ground rules are different. Although there is supposed to be a commonality in civil aviation maintenance standards, the truth is it hasn't got a patch on the RAF. Standards vary greatly. The regulator (CAA here in the UK) is subject to differing interpretations of their own rules. They don't take appropriate action against violators. Instead they give them 'just another chance'. Again and again. Management will do anything to save another couple of quid. The biggest difference you will note is, the RAF accepted that the maintenance of their aircraft was of paramount importance. In the civvy world, the owners and operators, big and small, see maintenance as an extremely costly interference in their plans, and will try every dirty trick in the book to get you to certify something that you normally wouldn't. Retain your integrety at all costs.

Understand and accept the above, and you can have a great time out here. Good luck with your licences.

camlobe

[tonkaplonka]

I would say YES!!!. I've just left after 12 years. I've completed all my Part 66 Modules and this will help you get a job a lot easier. They were beating down my door when I first put my CV out this year with about 7 modules passed. I'm really enjoying my new job. I'm up in Aberdeen working for a large helicopter company. From my impression here, there is no corner cutting and the firm is very strict when it comes to maintenance. They just seem to do it more efficently than the RAF.
So my advice is, do it sooner rather than later.

[FlightTester]

I left six years ago after doing my 22. Did my aero-engineering degree while still in. I put my CV out on the interweb a year prior to leaving (Monster or similar), I got my first phone call about three hours later! I finally decided to go to Warton as a Flight Test Engineer on the Typhoon - they couldn't get me through the door quick enough! Did about 2 1/2 years on that program and got a call through the old boy network to come to the USA as an FTE. I'm still getting regular phone calls from all over the place - Toulouse, Munich, Seattle, California.

There really is a desperate shortage of well qualified engineers worldwide right now- everyone seems to want to be an estate agent or work in the service industries. In my experience there always seems to be plenty of work for the right type of person - as camlobe points out, you'll be working with the whole spectrum of humanity, a lot of whom just want to get a paycheck at the end of the month. Most ex-RAF people seem to thrive in the civvy environment by being just a bit more flexible than the average "civvy".

I'd say not only is the grass greener, it's also generally better kept (cos it's you that gets to choose when it needs mowing)

Best of Luck

[2 per rev]

Did my 20 and have been out for 15 years. Camlobe and FlightTester have written well on the subject. I'm in New Zealand and have had similar experience to them both. I've been in the helicopter world and have done well, while many of my military friends have used all of their training to run motels - what the? !!!!!!!!!!Don't drop your military engineering standards but do try to be flexible and learn from the civvie way. Very high standards are great but zero bank balance isn't. There is some middle ground. Remember that the operator that you work for needs to make money in order to pay you, so there is a lot of room for efficient but safe engineering.You trade on your reputation and make your own career in the civvie world rather than getting in line in the military. Keep a close watch on efficiency and safety which equals your reputation. If you are behind the ball initially make a personal effort to catch up with your own study/research. I took lots of books home in the weekends to get up to speed in my own time - not the companies.Do not leave without a completed licence. I refused to use mine for two years instead accepted lower pay as an unlicenced tradesman until I felt comfortable using my signature in the civvie environment. It was the looking after your reputation thing. Enjoy - I know I have in both military and civilian worlds. Glad that I have been involved in both.

[mary_hinge]

Don't be fooled by the name: 9 years in RAF, left as Tornado sootie, went on the subbie circuit for a couple of years,(Monarchs, Dans etc) then went permie, moved through the ranks now doing quite well in an office enviroment at a UK based MRO. Echo the thoughts of those above realy.

Regrets? None

[EGT Redline]

The grass is definitely greener on this side of the fence that’s for sure. To be honest, there isn't a single element of forces life that I miss and jumping ship before getting caught in the pension trap was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

In terms of outside world versus the forces, you cannot really compare like for like. The trouble with military life is the system holds people back. There is this great misconception in the RAF technical trades that rank equals knowledge but to be frank, it’s a crock of ****e. Regardless of an individuals ability to do the job, good guys are not being allowed to realise their full potential because the system has not deemed them ‘grown up’ enough. Ground Engineer is a prime example, there are some really switched on Cpl’s and J/T’s who would excel in the role but having not reached the dizzy heights of Sgt, they are not permitted to apply. Consequently, people get qualified, leave and go on to bigger and better things where their skills and expertise are recognised. That’s the beauty of life out here, if you apply yourself and are prepared to put in the effort you will go places.

[Lightning5]

Go for it. I did my 22 (for pension of course) and went too Lakers, for a short period! Then went too a large bucket and spade outfit and never looked back. Essential you need to get your B1/B2 if you want too progress. I did my A & C in the mob before departing and the mob should help, although the resettlement officer who was supposed to help came from another planet!!So too answer your question, yes the grass is greener on the outside as long as you get your Qual's. Dont get me wrong, I had a great 22 that really set me up for the outside. best of luck for the future

[WOTME?]

I was in the mob 1970-80 & I regard the training & experience(in life in general,not only technical)as second to none.
When I got out I was in debt.
Apart from a small mortgage,which I paid off a while ago,I haven't been in debt since.
What I like especially about the other side?
If an ar$ehole gives you sh!t you can give it back!

[Stimulator365]

From a different angle.

I joined as a Halton Brat in the inst nav trade. While at a large base in deep Wiltshire was moved to Flt Sim. After 11 years decided that the outsdie looked greener, so took the plunge. Went a luton based set up and after a year there pulled the plug and went Expat to the Mid East. Was head hunted from the first one by an even bigger second one where I stayed for 12 years and due entirely to my training and the reputation of Halton rose quite literally to the top. I am now in deep Sussex where I will end my time and retire. Current job driving a desk and make maint descissions and policy.

The pay and conditions are good, free medical, pension plan, nice environment. MOB pension now being received but HMG takes 40% of that at present.

Would I change if I had it over again. Not really it's been fun.

but then maybe flight crew would have been fun but then no way seeing the standard of some of them that come through our front door for training.

[wire_less]

Basically yes! really depends on your attitude, the company you work for and if you enjoy the job.

I am not ex RAF but since leaving the RN I spent 9 years in the North Sea, 18 years in the Middle East and I am now back in the North Sea on a SAR contract.

If you have the EASA licence a type rating course which if you are lucky the company you work for should supply you with then you will be okay. The money maybe better but the work can be harder. You don't get anything for nothing these days.

All in all I think you will enjoy civil aviation, there are always challenges to be met.

Fasted

[Nopax,thanx]

Do it as soon as you get the chance! As has been said above, the training and discipline that you get from the military, coupled with the opportunity to get yourself licenced on the way out, will make you very employable. As long as you don't mind having to take decisions instead of take orders, you will love it.

[Kengineer-130]

What are the realistic earnings for a B1 with type? Permanant and contracting? :ok:

[boeing_eng]

I don't know where Camlobe has worked in Civvy Street but to hint that standards are generally lower than the RAF is misleading and certainly not true in my experience!

A Licence is of course the key to decent wages but don't expect everything on a plate once you have passed the Modules! It can be a hard slog with type courses, building up experience and proving yourself capable of holding company approvals.

It can take a while but the rewards are worth it!

[WOTME?]

You cannot seriously compare the engineering standards in the services with that of civilian commercial organisations.
The services are funded by the taxpayer.
Commercial organisations must make a profit or they eventually go out of business.

[Ogre]

Another slant to think about. I left as an Avionics Tech after 17 years (Fairy swine) but did not go through the licence route. I ended up getting a job with "a major British defence contractor" and have been working behind a desk ever since. I've had posts where I've been back into the blue suit world to assist in avionic snags and testing, and for me that is just perfect. Personally speaking I like not working shifts, home every weekend, and trade relatred work as a civvy that keeps my hand in with what's happening. So with your qualifications and experience do you want to keep getting your hands dirty?

[LightningMk6]

My experience was not so good as the above successes, left after 22 years, went for a job as a scheduled servicing engineer which was promised at Scampton with Airworks or whatever they are called now. Arrived the first day for induction and an hour later was told they had moved me to a lesser job as a linie. Argued the toss without success and half an hour later, was out of there.

Chose a different career and have done just fine.

[Brizeguy]

Ex RAF/ forces people- Is the grass greener?

Yes!

Miss...Early stacks, Beer calls, Sport afternoons, being able to have a hangover at work.

Now....Lots more money, New aircraft, Modern systems. Start at 7=work at 7!

Don't miss....Cabbages that were promoted on time and would not survive outside the mob, Exercises, Secondary duties, The Gulf!

Get your licences asap. Get some civvy registered experience in your log book now.

[WOTME?]

'being able to have a hangover at work'

I've been out for 28 years & hangovers at work have never been a problem!