More Tristar problems?

[mary_hinge]

British commanders call for more troops to stave off Taliban victory - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4493366.ece)

Troops flying home from Iraq and Afghanistan face delays after it emerged that two of the RAF’s three Tristar C2 transport aircraft have to be taken out of service so that cracks in their wing flaps can be repaired. The Ministry of Defence insisted it can maintain an “air bridge” by civilian charter.

[cessnapete]

A Tri-Strar is u/s in Akrotiri at the moment. Set of steps driven into wing. Long wait for possible new aileron.

[SRENNAPS]

Well I wonder where this thread will go next.


Movers.........Incoming

[mary_hinge]

In work until 2009.

Marshall Aerospace (http://www.marshallaerospace.com/tristarCockpit.php)

[Lurking123]

Well, presuming a mover is responsible for the placement/movement of steps, one could presume that some 'incoming' may be appropriate. :ouch:

[SRENNAPS]

Well of course.

When movers make a mistake it is very visible to all.

When other people (normally those whiter than white) make a mistake they can cover it up. :mad:

[skaterboi]

When other people (normally those whiter than white) make a mistake they can cover it up.

Not really.

If there's any doubt when I taxi my aircraft, I get wing walkers out to give me a thumbs up for good clearance. Same should apply here. There's simply no excuse for driving things into a parked aircraft.

[SRENNAPS]

And of course you never make a mistake in the cockpit.....do you:ugh:

And by the way:

If there's any doubt when I taxi my aircraft, I get wing walkers out to give me a thumbs up for good clearance. Same should apply here. There's simply no excuse for driving things into a parked aircraft.

Of course plenty of people available for wing walkers, no pressure, no sudden retern of aircraft early, etc, etc.

Give them a break, as I said every body makes more mistakes.... theirs are just more visible than others. Therefore they get slaged off (normaly by people like you) more quickly.

[Lurking123]

You started it.:ugh:

[BEagle]

In my 5000+ hours on the VC10, no-one ever drove anything into the aeroplane.

Yet over the last few years, there seem to have been some inexcusable ground incidents. It's not as though the TriStar is an infrequent visitor to Akrotiri, so is there a systemic problem - or was this a 'one-off'?

When RAF AT is at such a premium, such incidents are particularly unacceptable.

Whoever causes them.

[skaterboi]

And of course you never make a mistake in the cockpit.....do you

No, never :E

I'm not saying I don't, I'm saying that there is no excuse for driving things into aircraft. Stop the vehicle, get some assistance and carry on. End of.

[SRENNAPS]

So when is there an excuse for making a mistake?

Obviously you have an excuse when you make a mistake.
Obviously (in your eyes) there is no excuse for others making a mistake DOING THEIR JOB.

Grow up and wise up.

[minigundiplomat]

Yet over the last few years, there seem to have been some inexcusable ground incidents. It's not as though the TriStar is an infrequent visitor to Akrotiri, so is there a systemic problem - or was this a 'one-off'?



Sounds like incidences are on the increase. Is it workload?

Unfortunate as this incident is, and frustrating, this could be the first signs of overworked people making mistakes.

Easy to blame the movers (who may well have just screwed up). But it could be the tip of the iceberg we all know is drifting our way as the entire military becomes more fatigued jumping through hoops, chasing pointless stats and supporting wars in two theatres.

Just a thought before the executions commence.

[BEagle]

You're quite right - that's what I meant by a systemic problem!

Tired people make mistakes. Worse still, they're usually the worst placed to realise that they're starting to make mistakes....

So, rather than throw mire at specific branches or trades, people should perhaps think first about cumulative fatigue and whether overstretch was a key ingredient.

[gijoe]

Is it time to out our hands in the air and say ' we can't do this any more - who would like bid for the contract to charter us to Akrotiri and we'll get everyone in by Herc or something else from there?'

Discuss

[ArthurR]

SRENNAPS, no,mistakes from certain trades are never covered up, whilst I was at RAF Valley an aircrat (a beagle I think ) was filled with the wrong fuel, the engines cut out and it crashed shortly after take off. The three people resposible, bowser driver, refueller, and line supervisor, went to jail.
As ground crew, you can be held responsible for your work for up to 5 years...

[Grabbers]

SRENNAPS

Cock!

[C130 Techie]

who would like bid for the contract to charter us to Akrotiri and we'll get everyone in by Herc or something else from there?'

Of course the Herc fleet has loads of spare capacity to do this. Or the something else is what exactly?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

MGDP

"Is it workload?"..........................in Akrotiri :eek:

[14greens]

ahh what they should do is cover the frame with a dayglow jacket as it comes off the runway then it will be noticable and nobody will drive in to it

SOP should the steps not be lowered before they are brought up to the aircraft?, then raised as they approach the door, this certainly does not happen

[NutLoose]

BEagle (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/6981-beagle)


In my 5000+ hours on the VC10, no-one ever drove anything into the aeroplane.

Yet over the last few years, there seem to have been some inexcusable ground incidents. It's not as though the TriStar is an infrequent visitor to Akrotiri, so is there a systemic problem - or was this a 'one-off'?

When RAF AT is at such a premium, such incidents are particularly unacceptable.

Whoever causes them.


So the VC 10 that went to Newcastle many many moons ago and had a bog truck go through the back end does not count then? OR the VC10 that went up to replace it (after the first flew back to roost at Brize below 10,000 ft and unpressurised) which was also attacked by the same person in the same place with another bog truck, I take it they do not count then?........ :ok:

Or the one after a certain crewman decided to push some steps under the fuselage so he could get in the freight bay whilst refuelling went on and I had to offload 35,000 lb of fuel to get them back out? does that not count either?:mad:

Or the tow bar that went throught the nose of a VIP?

Should I go on?

[BEagle]

Sorry, I should have said that during 'my' 5000+, no-one drove anything into 'my' aeroplane - but I thought that was sufficiently implicit.

If SOPs are not being followed, supervisors' heads might well roll.....

[Krystal n chips]

Arthur R,

Sorry, but you are wrong re the Bassett crash at Valley. Nobody was imprisoned as a result. The S.A.C liney who refuelled the aircraft engaged a civil barrister for his defence at the CM. He was acquitted as I recall as the barrister exposed what we now call systemic failure...on a large scale. I was there at the time and remember the incident well.

[ArthurR]

Krystal n chips, I was there at the same time, but over the years the memory fades, perhaps it was the talk at the time that they could go to prison. If I remember rightly wasn't the co on the aircraft?

[Truckkie]

Thread drift fellas:ugh:

More importantly if these 2 Tristars are grounded for any lenght of time how are we going to maintain the airbridge?

What about the Telic/Herrick RIPs and the scheduled sorties?

Not a hope of the C130 fleet being able to assist - it's broken:{

Civil charter won't get you into theatre - British personnel on non-DAS equipped aircraft - no-one in their right mind would sign that off:mad:

Can't wait for next week's trip to the sandpit (again)

[BEagle]

With the Trial Installation of the TriStar cockpit upgrade not due out of the hangar until 2009 and with FSTA due to enter service from 2011, how long will the expensively modified TriStars actually remain in service?

I do hope that it'll prove to be £22M well spent.........

Is the simulator also being modified?

[El_Presidente]

skaterboi:

If there's any doubt when I taxi my aircraft, I get wing walkers out to give me a thumbs up for good clearance. Same should apply here. There's simply no excuse for driving things into a parked aircraft.


Funny...reminds me of the time I watched a RAF C17 being 'wing-walked' into the tail of an EA6 at El Centro a few years back...sure the loadie had signalled the handling pilot to stop, but the oh so gentle application of brakes was too...oh so gentle!

:ok:

[Lurking123]

Which reminds me of the time where the opsies told the movers that a set of steps were a little close to the taxiway at a certain Afghan international airport. Suitable ignored, an Antonov then knocked the steps back into line. Chap had to stay back a couple of days to carry out a unit inquiry.

That may have been the same time that the movers didn't think it necessary to clear all their crap from a dispersal because helicopters were only ground taxying and therefore there was no downdraft.

[cornish-stormrider]

So, Timmy was parked on the pan. Guilty person responsible moved said steps into stationary aircraft.

Q1. How many people were on the team moving the steps?

Q2. What speed were said steps travelling at?

Q3. Where the F£&K was the supervision?

At a time when all forces are beyond overstretch who decided that this was an ok corner to cut? What next, self signing, self supervising, non independant inspection ejection seat work?? Where I work there are certain tasks that need a certain number of people, not enough people then task not done.

There is never enough time or man power to do it right first time but we always manage to find the time and manpower to f$"king fix it. And yes, I have made a mistake or two. It's at that time the old integrity principal comes out to play. I.E. stop and report it truthfully, man up and take your punishment like a liney.

[Farfrompuken]

BEags

£22m on the WHOLE fleet?

Bargain compared to the cost of a SINGLE VC10 major.

At least there'll be a return as the 3* will still be here in 2014+. 2011? Don't belive the MoD glossies!

[BEagle]

I wouldn't disagree with that - I just hope that the idiot beancounters don't decide to scrap the TriStars before, ooh, about 2020??

[Wokka Tech]

SRENNAPS,

Whilst I think it's laudible of you to defend our Movements Colleagues out here, I have to say that they are in fact culpable. To put it another way, they biffed up. A silly avoidable mistake. Made more annoying by the fact that despite all that has been achieved in support of the Airbridge, all anyone will remember now is that Akrotiri bent a Tristar. Can't say anymore as I may attract unwanted attention. :ugh:

[L1011GE]

HAHA Muppets again...I can remember many incidents of movers ground attack on a T* strange thing was nothing ever happened to them...

[ACSfirstfail]

As a TriStar frequent flyer I am normally the first one to criticise the Movements Empire, however, on this occasion I must support them. AKT movements have increased by 50% but unfortunately the movements team there still have the same number of personnel, a number which is woefully too few for the increase in tasking. Fatigue manifests itself in various ways; a TriStar being bent is just one way. Let us stop pointing the finger at any one individual or section. Let us start learning from our mistakes so that next time we can avoid this from happening again. Let us all remember that the people that ultimately lose out are the people in theatre. But most importantly, the airbridge may be creaking but because of the hard work of a lot of people at BZN and AKT (including the the other chaps across the road) the airbridge is still open.

[L1011GE]

see above post....they have hit aircraft enough times to learn not to do it.

If a techie drives anywhere near an aircraft he needs a marshaler, even if he is driving the slow Grove to clean the windscreens.

Eng wing orders dictate a marshaller is required for all movements around an aircraft.

There is no excuse..and fatigue is not a valid excuse..

[Lurking123]

I agree. It is easy to get complacent working around aircraft and I have seen a number of 'specialists' persistently over-assess their own abilities.

[South Bound]

There is no excuse..and fatigue is not a valid excuse..

Disagree completely, it totally depends on the strength of your will to stand up and say you are too tired to do something. One's willingness to do that depends on lots of things; quality of management/leadership above you, importance of the task, awareness of tiredness.

I remember standing alone on a pan with the sun coming up taking in the fact that one of my techies had just written off a refuelling rig and seriously damaged a civvie airliner. Circumstances (op tempo, manning levels, working hours and importance of task) were such that it was dealt with, he never heard a thing about it and neither should he.

We don't know the circumstances so let the subsequent investigation decide if there is culpability.

[glad rag]

Disagree completely, it totally depends on the strength of your will to stand up and say you are too tired to do something. One's willingness to do that depends on lots of things; quality of management/leadership above you, importance of the task, awareness of tiredness.

I remember standing alone on a pan with the sun coming up taking in the fact that one of my techies had just written off a refuelling rig and seriously damaged a civvie airliner. Circumstances (op tempo, manning levels, working hours and importance of task) were such that it was dealt with, he never heard a thing about it and neither should he.

We don't know the circumstances so let the subsequent investigation decide if there is culpability.

:D:D:D

[collbar]

Heard C-17s are being drafted in as a last resort .. pax will be inbound instead of ammo! work that one out!!!

[Mobile Muppet]

L1011GE

Don't know what part of BZZ you work at but I've never seen a teccie marshaling any vehicle of theirs near a T* or VC10. And be careful of your reply because I know they have been hit, and not just by movers or ASMT !

Mistakes happen in all walks of life, it's just one of those things. Despite all your bickering I suggest you look at the various pamphlets floating around detailing recent aircraft mishaps. Very few mover related, a lot more teccie related. But you don't see us whinging.

MM

[minigundiplomat]

quality of management/leadership above you,


Yep !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chumbleywarner]

As of 1700 today we are down to 1 serviceable tri*, and that's in honolulu. hope to get another working tomorrow, fingers crossed!!:ok::ok:

[tubby linton]

Out of interest do Lockheed still support the aircraft or will the RAF take pver design authority?With the amount of operational tristars in the world I would be surprised if they still did.This was part of the reason Concorde was withdrawn as EADS withdrew their support of the type.

[gijoe]

I suggested going for charter to Cyprus and then jumping on something else to complete the journey.

C130 Techie jumped in with the correct answer to 'use the Hercs' in that they can't do it either. I knew a resident of Lyneham would :ok:

There is only one answer...well maybe 2...get some new frames NOW! Government get your chequebook out and whilst you're at it buy some more rotary.

Or do away with the need for DAS, and the ins and outs of that decision are not for discussion here so please don't.

G

[The Helpful Stacker]

Or do away with the need for DAS, and the ins and outs of that decision are not for discussion here so please don't.


Then why mention it at all?:confused:

[14greens]

Think the issue here is yep the movers are working hard at Akt, and everywhere around the route.
Someone else suggested having the backbone to stand up and say they are too tired to work and strength of will! hmmm interesting comment, do they have a shift system? think it allows suitable R and R time!
How many times are they asked to work 24 hr shifts? there are people on the airbridge that did, and within the rules.

However VASS at AKT are probably some of the best people when it comes to marshalling vehicles around the aircraft and chocking them etc etc, and they work pretty hard as well and do pretty well avoiding driving in to airplanes.
The big issue thats probably going to come out of this is admitting the mistake!!!

Mistakes!!! we all make em, but when you do make a mistake, put your hand up and say you have done it! dont wait to see if anybody saw you

[gijoe]

...to make sure noone else puts the 7 Qs up about it on here.

:rolleyes:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Roll you eyes all you want, but why mention it at all other than to try and make yourself sound clever but at the same time avoid being prompted further on WTF you actually know about such things with the use of "shh, its secret"?

Those who know what their talking about wouldn't have brought it up and anyone else who mentions it (you and I at the moment I guess) probably haven't got a clue about the decisions made behind allowing non-DAS aircraft into places such as Afghanistan.:ugh:

[GGR]

Well said. these old girls need all the help they can get doing a very demanding job for such old a/c. Bet the knockers are not RAF?
GGR

[Brain Potter]

I neither know of the circumstances surrounding this incident nor wish to offer excuses for any negligent actions.

However, everyone involved with the airbridge has been left in no doubt as to the operational significance of every aircraft movement and the impact of failure on the the 'poor bloody infantry' who are fighting this particular war. The nature of service personnel under such circumstances is to try to get the job done, with some attendant pressure to cut-corners on occasion. Most of the time they get away with it, but perhaps this time they didn't. On any other day most folks on here would lambast the AT system if a mover refused to manoeuvre a baggage-loader without a banksman, causing a delay which put the crew out of hours, resulting in a 12-hour extra nightstop . I have no doubt that such a person would be described as a "jobsworth" and would have their commitment seriously questioned.

The "can-do" attitude expected from those at the coal-face is a sticking-plaster that is used to cover-up the real problem - lack of resources. Two unserviceable aircraft should not have such a wide impact on British Military operations. Rather than seeking to point the finger at lowly individuals, or to generalize about trade groups, the searching questions should be aimed those who are supposed to be leading, managing and equipping the organization.

[pigsinspace]

Driving into a large transport aircraft, that is clearly visable is not a mistake.

Yes accidents happen but rules are put in place to try and ensure they DONT happen.

For Steps? tp strike an aileron they/he/she must have been driving under the wing in the first place...

[November4]

Driving into a large transport aircraft, that is clearly visable is not a mistake.

Are you really implying that this was a deliberate act?

[goudie]

A Tri-Strar is u/s in Akrotiri at the moment. Set of steps driven into wing. Long wait for possible new aileron.


Why the long wait? Doesn't Akrotiri carry T* spares?
If not, then surely one could be flown out within 24 hrs.
Accidents happen for whatever reason, having the ability/resource to manage and minimise their impact is key to operating effectively.

[bvcu]

Being in the airline world i can assure you that picking up an aileron for a widebody within 24 hours on an aircraft that is in production today is pretty unlikely . The cost of those items means they dont sit on shelves in stores !!! So the chances of one being easily available for a T* is remote . Not knowing the a/c there is probably also the chance that because of the mixed origin of the fleet it might not even be an option to rob one from an a/c on maintenance ! Quick trip to Mojave with a cheque book and toolbox maybe .........!!

[goudie]

bvcu If what you say is true, then what a sorry state to be in when fighting a war.

[cessnapete]

There is crewmember on Tri-Stars whose mother was a flight attendant on the same a/c over 30 years ago!!

[Back in the Barrel]

Cessnapete - I think I've met the one you mean. Is she still doing long-haul with BA?:eek:

[BEagle]

There is crewmember on Tri-Stars whose mother was a flight attendant on the same a/c over 30 years ago!!

:suspect: 2008 - 1986 = 22

Is she older than that?

:E

[99luftballon]

Quote:
Why the long wait? Doesn't Akrotiri carry T* spares?

Goudie, are you for real? When there are insufficient spares at the Main Operating Base for most aircraft, how do you expect them to be stored down route?

Do we write a list of every component on each AT type, then buy sufficient to store at every en-route location/destination?

The spares in question are no doubt en route now using a well tried system, made possible because the little money we do have is not spent on supporting large warehouses full of components for many fleets, at dozens of airfields around the world!

[Wokka Tech]

There are no unserviceable Tristars at AKT. :oh:

[Grimweasel]

Now, I don't ever recall an Air Despatcher hitting an a/c with a vehicle etc. This could be down to a couple of reasons:

1. They use the half chock method whenever they have a vehicle near an a/c, which is very safe and prevents this unnecessary damage occuring.

2. The 252 action and discipline on the unit was/is much more robust than the RAF. Soldiers usually have the balls to discipline people when incidents happen, something that seems to be sadly lacking in the RAF! :ugh:

Grim

[glum]

I thnk there is a big difference between a mistake and incompetence / negligence.

Getting something difficult wrong is usually a mistake, getting something simple wrong is usually negligence or incompetence.


Personally, I'd class flying a plane as difficult, and moving steps as simple, but that's just me...:E

[cessnapete]

BEagle-Slight mathematical error on my part. Working on BA/RAF TriStar1979, almost 30 years ago!

[Truckkie]

Glad to see that this thread has developed into another techies vs movers vs aircrew slanging match:mad:

The important thing to take away is that irrespective of trade we are all suffering from under manning. Working hours have increased to support ops with aircraft that are becoming increasingly tired.

Our most important asset, airmen and women, are being asked to do far too much with little or no training or supervision.

I for one feel that the airbridge is a sterling effort, given the antiquated airframes and lack of support personnel.

Rather than slagging each other off we should be supporting and assiting our comrades. I have worked with a very small bunch of specialist movers over the last 5 years and through their hard work and commitment I have been able to achieve effective operational output:D

If the Tristars are suffering we will have to find other ways and means to continue the airbridge - and that will mean people actually maintaing professional courtesy and supporting the hard-pressed AT fleet and it's support staff in the UK and overseas.

Rant off:ok:

[Redcarpet]

I don't think the problem was actually hitting the aircraft, an unfortunate accident, but then denying that you'd done it! A totally different and inexcusable issue. :mad:

[PICKS135]

Hitting aircraft isnt a modern problem. I remember one of 43's Grey FG1's being hit in the nose by a FLM in a towing tractor, on a bright sunny day.


He didnt see it. :eek::eek::eek:


Bloody good camouflage

[mary_hinge]

Anyone else remember the FLM on 55 SQN putting the tractor through the underwing tank on a Victor, that splash was on par with the Dambusters:E

Or the MEAS fitter taking the tug to the mess one night, forgetting he had a GR1 on the back.

Trouble is, this type of thing has always happened, and always will. The risk can be reduced but in doing so the risk will change.

Back to the topic, Any one know more about the cracks?

[BEagle]

cessnapete, I was thinking about a certain night stop in 1986......

The BA TriStar crew were very good company. Ooooh, yes...:E

[gijoe]

The Stacker,

Do a google search - you'd be amazed at what you might be able to learn.

Now run along boy.

G:cool:

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'm shocked. 'Knowledgable' people such as yourself usually use Wikipedia rather than Google searches.
Off you trot son.

[November4]

I don't think the problem was actually hitting the aircraft, an unfortunate accident, but then denying that you'd done it! A totally different and inexcusable issue.

Sorry who said that it had been denied?

[pigsinspace]

Are you really implying that this was a deliberate act? .................get a life you KJ....no one said it was deliberate, I am trying to imply that mistakes should not happen like that.

You know that you are driving a tractor and attached to the back of the tractor is a set of steps about 18 feet high!! ( T* door sill 15 feet..)

So therefore if you are towing a high load you DONT drive under a wing....

Basics really

[L1011GE]

In my time on Tristars I can remember an incident at Brize, I had done my walk round and also had the AE.

The movers and ASMT were still loading the rear cargo hold, After the door was closed I done my normal walk round only to see a Trepple handrail shape dent in the boat fairing..

Of course everyone involved denied it was them and even tried to say it was already there.

The Trepple driver fled to ASMT leaving the Trepple behind!!


Did anything happen? NO just brushed away again ....apart from the guys in Basra who wanted to get home...Sortie scrubbed.

[CHINOOKER]

Sounds like you need to get your heirachy to talk to "Wee Willie" at "Big Airways",as we are about to stand down up to 6x747-400s on a daily basis over the winter period due lack of punters!! Having helped out in the past with 747s to Ascension,i,m sure BA would only be too willing to get a bit of extra revenue generated!!
On a second point,why does it seem to take forever for the RAF to get mods done to thier aircraft. If my memory serves me well,it took almost a year for each VC10 to be converted to a tanker....almost a similar amount of time for the Tristars and now it seems that the avionics upgrade to that fleet will take a similar length of time!.
Contrast that with the commercial world where "time on the ground=money lost"....so all i can assume is that your MRO in all of these projects,seems to take you for all it's worth once they have the contract signed and sealed. Would that be a fair assumption??

[glum]

We can't afford to pay for decent companies to upgrade our aircraft, and most won't touch MOD because the profit margin is so low and we change our management every two years so projects get delayed, changed and generally screwed about with.

Plus time on the ground costs us less - no fuel to pay for, no in flight rations to pay for, no landing fees to pay for, no hours accrued on the frames!

[Fast but Safe]

Having read the posts on this thread (some cringing, some laughing), these are my conclusions:-

1. The AT fleet has been stretched close to distortion this decade.
2. Groundcrew manning and experience levels (techie/movers) are close to dangerous.
3. Even though we were told there is an open purse for whatever is needed, it does not exsist.
4. Movers will always prang aircraft for whatever reasons. They are one of many trades in the forces that have rules and regs yet still it goes wrong every so often.
5. You should stick to the thread

Have a nice day.....missin you already!

FbS

[Redcarpet]

The rumour is that the pax saw it and then said mover denied it.

[BEagle]

An incident is one thing, lying is another.

If - and I repeat if this is true, then bolleaux, hanging by, yardarms from, is clearly the order of the day.

All those who lie, cheat or steal should be shot. Period.

[It's Not Working]

Beagle

Make your mind up, is he (she) to be shot or hung?

[BEagle]

Both....





....if it's true.

[Nomorefreetime]

I like reading this web site from the fence(to catch up on what the gossip is, as said before only joined because I couldn't see it for free anymore); why is it every time an incident involving movers is aired on this forum. I am in the RAF albeit at a unit where there is only a handfull of us blue jobs.
When I was serving at a flying station I seem to recall some sort of flight saftey flyer appearing every other month. (cant recall what its call Human factors?). This had all the ground incidents for the previous period, usually covering both sides of A4 paper. Why dont those of you who like airing the movers dirty linen put all those incidents on this site for all the old retired guys / journo's to read. Plenty of aircraft put into hanger doors on a friday afternoon.
I have seen lots of ground incidents during my time and 99% of the time time, they stay where they belong, behind the gates of the camp.
Back to my fence again

:)

[November4]

If true....agree with Beagle

[The Nip]

Where do you see anyone taking responsibility for their actions anymore? It is not in today's culture to admit fault. Where fault is admitted, no action is taken as this would then prevent personnel from owning up to any future mistakes!!

[Re-Heat]

Outsource the lot to BA/Virgin, flown by military crew on the spare 744s. Problem solved. :E

[mole man]

I hope the RAF is doing everthing possible to keep the Afgan Air bridge going to support our lads and get them back for some well erned R+R


Mole Man x 216

[mymatetcm]

If the movement chap would have had owned up after hitting the wing tip, rather than denying all knowledge, when bits on the floor could be clearly seen ! He should have been honest to own up and not let a criticaly damaged aircraft attempt to get airborne. Luckily 2 passengers informed the cabin crew member of the incident and the aircraft stayed on the bay. The guy obviously felt no guilt and he deserved all he got outside the step inn.

[Farfrompuken]

wotcha Moley! Hope all's well with you.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"he deserved all he got outside the step inn."

Sounds rather sinister, care to shed any light?

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
SRENNAPS, no,mistakes from certain trades are never covered up, whilst I was at RAF Valley an aircrat (a beagle I think ) was filled with the wrong fuel, the engines cut out and it crashed shortly after take off. The three people resposible, bowser driver, refueller, and line supervisor, went to jail.
As ground crew, you can be held responsible for your work for up to 5 years...

Reply

I think sending personnel to jail is a Harsh idea.

What would it achieve??

I know they made a mistake, But didn't the Pilot/crew think to check the fuel also??

The driver, refueller, and line supervisor have probably had to live with their mistake for the rest of their lives.

I thought we worked as a team, And cross checked our work.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

True, But a 'Quick' reassurance is a Good Thing.

[L1011GE]

Pilot check the fuel, and miss the duty free shop?

Seriously thats why big aircraft carry GEs. He is responsible to the pilot.

[Logistics Loader]

guys n gals....

lets not forget the 2 pilots that taxied into each other week in UK...

however, why not cut all the bickering n backstabbing.... !!

lets all have a 5min larf over it and put it to bed...!!

also, surely the VASF team in AKT would surely have done a last minute check of the a/c before it taxied out... they certainly did during my time on Movs in AKT.... the guy on comms would always unplug and do a final walk round before giving the flight deck the thumbs up...

I cannot comprehend why the said individual did not own up...!!
In the early 80's at BZZ i dinked the leading edge on a 10, i owned up !! why ?? the thought of that aircraft failing out of the sky with 129 pax plus crew was first and foremost in my mind. that would be to much to live with !!

Although, the damage was not that critical as the engineers fixed it toot sweet...!!

time and time again there is a "bun fight" over things on this thread...!!

why doesnt everybody learn to work together to ensure things like this are kept to a minimum or down to Zero...!!

after all we all have eyes n ears to see a potential hazard developing..

i'm sure we all have been in a situation where with hindsight we may have acted differently.. certainly in my time, i grounded a Puma because i was getting soaked by fuel as it was leaking all over me...

I actually stopped a VC10 from taxiing at AKT, because there was not enough clearance to get through..

from experience no-one has been sacked from making a decision which on the surface may be incorrect, but has actually saved the day... or lives...

[Truckkie]

AIRBRIDGE UPDATE 20 AUG 08

Only one serviceable full trooper fit available TFN - pax being bumped off left right and centre!

Minimum of 5 days delay leaving the UK if you are not not a priority pax!

Same knock-on for guys getting home - not so good if you are due R+R.

Not looking brilliant for the next big changeover - especially as a well known Cambridge based engineering company has alledgely F:mad:d up the first avionics upgrade.

The AT fleet is broken - our lords and masters need to sort this out ASAP.

Hats off to the guys at the Oxfordshire airbase who are trying to get the best out of an antiquated, barely suitable fleet.

:mad:

[navibrator]

Pathetic writings from those who think anyone covers up an incident! There is no excuse for driving a set of steps into the side of an aircraft. Similarly, there is no excuse for landing wheels up! Whoever is at fault, unless there are sound mitigating circumstances, those who fail in their duty need to take responsibility. One thing people these days don't seem to take! We waste money on repairs when we allegedly cannot afford 88 new Typhoons. I know what I would prefer to have!

[14greens]

Loggie Loader

In answer to your comment No the VASF see off crew do not do a FINAL walk round after unplugging. the GE does a walkround as part of the Turnround, as does the Air engineer, the GE then will do a final walkround before the doors are closed and steps removed, once the engines are started and the Ground Crew cleared off intercom he is expected to appear off to the right/left as instructed so the jet can get going, would you walk round the back of a running RB211?

The main thing from the last incident is honesty! the bloke hit the jet and walked away denying it
Asked if he was "regretfull" about what he had done the answer was, "thats what i said in my statement!"

[mole man]

Any body know if troops returning to afgan are priority pax or do they get anothe 5 days R+R

Mole Man

[Logistics Loader]

14g's

point taken on the RB211, however, it was the point the marshaller had the "last look" as the a/c left the pan....

as an ex mover, i always did my checks ie... check all freight doors were closed, this then would be cross checked by the ALM and also by the flight deck ensuring all lights were out...

even so, as all trades are involved indirectly with a/c ops, it falls to everyone to show some concern when something "appears not right"

anyone remember the flight safety film with RAFP picking mushrooms....??
or what about Richard O'Sullivan pretending to be a Harrier pilot and forgeting to stow his seat pins i think the story was...

rgds...

[Tricorn]

anyone remember the flight safety film with RAFP picking mushrooms....??
or what about Richard O'Sullivan pretending to be a Harrier pilot and forgeting to stow his seat pins i think the story was...

Wow!! That takes me back a bit....sorry, wrong thread :).

Seriously, perhaps we should bring more of that back:ok:.

[Kilo5]

I hear on the grapevine that the offender responsible for this mess is to going to be dealt with in a suitable and official manner

[Redcarpet]

Does anyone know if there are Tristars in storage anywhere and how easy it would be to obtain them?

[Arty Fufkin]

Google earth Victorville Airport, San Bernadino. A bloke in the pub tells me these ones are being closely looked at. The rumour of more Tristars seems to be gathering pace. Gate, Horse, Bolt?

[BackfromIraq]

In my world it's not negligent to fcuk up, but it IS negligent not to tell the affected party.

Maybe I'm too honest for my own good, but I find it easier to tell the truth and suffer for my art than live with the consequences of lying.

It's called INTEGRITY, and I see almost none these days as people from our much-esteemed government through our lords and masters down to the lowliest benefit claimant try to lie their way out of situations they've created.

I wish people would just manthefcukup. It's not going to change the result of the negligence but, by accepting the consequences of their actions, it might encourage each and every one of them to think twice before doing something rash.

[mole man]

Is the afgan airbridge back on sched

mole man

[L1011GE]

South Atlantic was always on schedule with us....eh moley?

[OpsMan38]

I'm just throwing my two pennyworth in here regarding movers, steps, static objects ie Tri*..

I had the good fortune to work with the movers at the Deid a couple of years ago as there was no SAMO in place at the time and my role meant extremely close daily liaison with all of the movers on the pan and in regards to planning etc

I have to say that my opinion of the movements branch was changed forever having worked on a daily basis with them and seeing at first hand the pressures they were under to ensure the success of the airbridge to both operational theatres. I did witness a few errors and mistakes but with such long hours, high temps and ever changeable programme to keep up with, they all did a sterling job to ensure that as many people as possible got home on time.

I don't understand why the incident occurred in AKT but I do want to say that the movers don't always deserve the bad press they receive in this forum.

I say 'hats off to you movers' and I for one, will always remember those 4 months of 18 hr shifts and have the greatest admiration for those I worked with.

Standing by......

[411A]

In my 5000+ hours on the VC10, no-one ever drove anything into the aeroplane.


Hmmm, well, while not in the RAF, in my nearly 15,000 command hours in the TriStar, no one drove anything into MY airplane.

Why, you may ask?

Especially in ad-hoc charter service, which I do exclusively now, we carry at least two ground engineers with as everywhere, and either the Flight Engineer and/or ground engineers, while the airplane is parked, keep a close eye out for ground movement of vehicles, hi-loaders, boarding stairs, tugs, etc.
Also, when entering a ramp area, especially at remote African locations where it even slightly appears that the maneuvering area might be compromised, ground engineers are placed at opened doors left and right, to be sure that proper clearances are maintained.
In addition, after baggage loading is completed, and prior to doors being closed, ground engineers check carefully around the aircraft, prior to their boarding, and remaining doors closed.

Why these procedures?

Because, if the airplane goes unserviceable for long periods, we don't get paid.

IF the financial incentive is large enough, ground accidents can be prevented.

[Mobile Muppet]

opsman38,

Thanks for your kind words. I for one have always been somebody who doesn't feel the need to bad mouth others off on a public forum. It seems that people of certain trades feel the need to be able to be little or slag us off regardless of what we do, but I can live with that and get on with my job as professionally as the next man.

As we are all under extreme pressure to produce more with less, perhaps those who feel the need to slag the movers off will come and spend a day with us in theatre. There opinion might be changed to. Unfortunalty one bad mover or a bad experience tars us all with the same brush.

MM

[rolandpull]

Of course Tristar crews don't jump out in front of the baggage trucks at BZZ and demand that the movers give them their luggage, before the KDH R&R pax or the Staff officer on board - do they?

I understand that our new super air-lifter is flying about with extra seats and stewards/spare ALM's?

[geezerBJ]

Arrgh poor little mover/baggage handler person doesn't like the nasty bully boys shouting at him. Boo Hoo, dry your eyes Princess, man up and get those bags loaded, you don't want to delay the Tristar now.


COCK :ugh:

[BEagle]

geezerBJ, a succinct, but wholly accurate asessment!

[glum]

Troll more like...

[Mobile Muppet]

AIDU,

I think that post clearly sums up what type of person you are....

MM

[Ayla]

Everyone makes mistakes, flightcrew, engineers, movers, that's part of being human. I feel certain the guy feels terrible about what happened. It's a shame he didn't feel able to point out his mistake, a major part of flight safety culture is trying to make people feel comfortable with admitting errors.

[falcon12]

Good post.

Since the RAF's fudamental problem, as exhibited in this thread, is that the tasks are too many for the resources and adequate funding is not forthcoming, isn't it about time that some civilian practices were studied, and maybe adopted, when handing aircraft on the ground?

411A's points are well made and when you think on to ground handling. A diverse collection of civvy handling companies, other airlines and airports in the UK alone, handle a significant number of varying a/c type movements every day without major incidents, with minimum staff levels, performance targets, sometimes impossible schedules, equipment of variable status and all for minimal profit margins. I'm not saying that it's a better system but maybe worth a look at.

After all, there is always room to learn in aviation as that helps to stop a/c crashing and handlers crashing into a/c.

pontification over.......

Just a thought.....

[rolandpull]

Now then, how about expanding the SERCO movements workforce at the Oxfordshire 'superbase'? In essence when the fleets settle down, all the strategic side of the house (A330) could be totally handled by civvies at Brize with regard to pax/bags & frt. The tactical 130/400's would become the core trade for the service movers. The pax terminal and Cargo/plt build centre can also operate in a civilian manner. SERCO movers are already gaining training in CAA DG operations and service logistics managements IT sytems. SERCO movers are also engaged on building explosive pallets in the 'dump', loading/restraining flat floor loads into C17's and effecting role changes etc.

Does the RAF really need to have a WO/DAMO on (c40K?) with all their management experience meeting and departing every acft? Civvies do this with guys and gals with a months training at LHR etc - dispatchers. What is the difference in jobs?

The movements trade does a sterling job, but also a diverse one to the point that their training is so broad that they cannot keep current with their skill sets. Brize SERCO 'movers' recieve 3 days training and then join a traffic or cargo team, this is very similar to trg times at civvy airport for ramp operatives.

Accidents still happen at the civvy airports, however with airlines being run from a commercial standpoint the operation doesnt 'slip' that often, it simply can't. The RAF however will sit and wait waiting for elusive bespoke spares to be traced and shipped worlwide. You get the idea..........

[mymatetcm]

ayla
the guy felt that sorry he was in the stepp inn a few hours later laughing and joking.

[SFRAF]

I would like to point out the "Professional attitude" shown by the aircrew of said T* as they proceeded to form a circle around the mover in question and have a very nice and pleasant conversation outside the camp gates :mad: which involved fingers in chests. Real professionals...

[kiwibrit]

In my 5000+ hours on the VC10, no-one ever drove anything into the aeroplane....

That surprises me. I remember a vehicle with a hydraulic lift ripping a gash in the side of a VC10 as the platform was raised. I also remember an air start trolley being driven away whilst still being connected to the aircraft. Brize Norton - late 60s.

[L1011GE]

I would like to point out the "Professional attitude" shown by the aircrew of said T* as they proceeded to form a circle around the mover in question and have a very nice and pleasant conversation outside the camp gates which involved fingers in chests. Real professionals...

What do you expect them to do? Have a whip round and buy him a beer?

IF, as was reported he was seen laughing about it in the Step Inn he is a bigger fool than we all give him credit for.

He should have taken a low profile and stayed out of the way.

The 216 Crews are the ones who will get the blame for the Tristar not flying NOT the movers.

Reminds me of one route on the way back from Basra.. We picked up a comp A and he was delivered to Lossiemouth from Akt.

The passengers had been at AKT overnight, when it was known they were going via Lossie 2 SAC's asked if they could get off at Lossie..

true to form the Movers said no....so said SAC's went back to Brize to get a bus to Heathrow, fly to Aberdeen then Bus to Lossie..

Who got the blame? 216 of course, On the ground at Lossie we had hot brakes and plenty of time to find and offload the SAC bags but again the movers would not provide the trepple...

ho Hum

[dionysius]

Trepel to offload 2 bags ..........Ho Hum.:rolleyes:

ps....a little bird tells me that a certain herc det drove a kva away from a herc the other day, only problem was that it was still connected....:{

[Sideshow Bob]

dionysius,
If you knew anything about a Tristar, you'd know all the bags are in tins in the hold on a C2, hence a Trepel is needed to find the right tin....Ho Hum indeed :rolleyes:

[cornish-stormrider]

SFRAF,

man the f4ck up. If said useless pr.ck has done the deed, moral integrity compells him to own up straight away..........

for him to (by all accounts) drive off and deny all knowledge portays him as someone not to be trusted. For him to them gob off all laughing and joking in the bar = a right good talking to round the back of the hanger.


Let us suppose the T* went flying and fell into the oggin with total loss of life all because someone was too spineless to admit a f4ck-up, what then....?

I think the crew had a right to be arsey about this


And my experience with movers is all bad, coming back from ak on a charter, stopping at brize and then it was on to newcastle for the civvys. movers would not let us stay on as they wouldn't provide an unload for us at geordieland, we said no worries we can do that, movers replied
"No, you don't have experience working with aircraft or on an airside environment."

Guess where we worked.....11sqn.


I am sure there is a good mover somewhere, good luck to him coz his trade is chock full of the worst jobsworths I have ever had the mispleasure of knowing

[dionysius]

Sideshow, may have been a KC1 ...Ho huuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmm:rolleyes:

[L1011GE]

it was a C2 Ho HUm...

[Mobile Muppet]

Lossimouth dont have a trepel Hoooooooo huuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmm

They have 1 atlas and it might have be broken, do you know exactly why it wasnt used or are you taking a wild stab in the dark and assuming?

Know your facts before you post gibberish, trying to get one over.

For gods sake plse close this thread, its got boring and childish !

[Sideshow Bob]

dionysius,
If you knew anything about a Tristar, you'd know that we never flew passengers out of Basrah in a KC1 as they didn't have DIRCM at the time....Ho Hum :hmm:

[Mighty Quercus]

Anyway back to the thread....

Do we have the airbridge back up and running yet? Or are the poor soles still stranded in Gateway.

[BEagle]

Whilst you may score points off each other as much as you like about air movements topics, I would venture to suggest that it is manifestly unwise to declare publically which sub-species of TriShaw may or may not have self protection systems fitted....:=

So STFU about such things :mad:

[cornish-stormrider]

I'm with beags on this one..........

I would like to know when they are being fitted with the radar guided vulcan cannons and stuff, y'know like in matthew reilly's wild tales..

[L1011GE]

Trepple or Atlas same thing to me...

Do I ask you the difference between a Refuel rig and a defuel rig?

Its a big up and down thing to load bags.

Yes they did have one But they had no "'Time"

we only waited about 3 hours for the brakes to cool..

Ho HUm

[L1011GE]

Check the internet.

Info and Pictures are widely available.

Start at Google or recently BBC.

Then try airlines.net.. you will find some nice photos.

Its not a world secret.


Northrop Grumman AN/AAQ-24(V) NEMESIS Countermeasures System (United States) - Jane's Aircraft Upgrades (http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jau/jau_9400.html)

[BEagle]

From Sky News (my use of bold font):

David Cameron has insisted British forces are getting a raw deal over their leave as he met troops in Afghanistan.

The Tory leader called for rest periods to start when personnel arrived home - rather than when they departed operations.

Mr Cameron announced the policy after chatting with soldiers over breakfast at the British Lashkar Gah base in volatile Helmand province.

Currently flights back from Afghanistan can be delayed days before reaching the UK.

Mr Cameron - visiting the troubled country for the third time since taking charge of the Conservative Party - said: "I think this is fair for our troops. They should be able to predict how long their leave is going to be rather than having to spend it on an aeroplane and on air bases a long way from home."

Mr Cameron has previously accused the Government of "breaking the military covenant" by letting troops down on equipment, healthcare, family support and accommodation.

A Conservative Party commission led by Falklands hero Simon Weston and author Frederick Forsyth raised the issue of "lost leave" in June, and their proposals have now been endorsed.

Earlier Mr Cameron and shadow foreign secretary William Hague had breakfast in the base's mess hall.

The Tory leader discussed conditions for soldiers and the situation on the ground with Captain Julian Mitchell, a member of 42 Engineer Regiment from Pembroke in west Wales, and Captain Andrew Rodgers, a member of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders from Oxford.

Mr Cameron said there had been "progress" in Afghanistan, but there were still concerns such as a shortage of helicopters and the unwillingness of some Nato countries to play their full part in operations.

Hopefully someone will listen - and this should at least help those inconvenienced by delay on their way home on well-deserved leave.

[Brain Potter]

Great in theory, but the units on the front line are required to maintain a certain manning level. Therefore, if one soldier's R+R turns into 3 weeks away due to airbridge problems then another will have to be cut down to a week.

The solution is reliable aircraft in greater numbers.

[BEagle]

The solution is reliable aircraft in greater numbers.

Hmm - isn't the real solution to restore the UK's Armed Forces to the number of personnel needed to cope with the legacy of NuLabor's profligate military adventurism?

As well as to provide them with adequate, reliable equipment - including air transport as necessary.

[Brain Potter]

Hmm - isn't the real solution to restore the UK's Armed Forces to the number of personnel needed to cope with the legacy of NuLabor's profligate military adventurism?

In general I agree, but as this thread is about TriStar airbridge problems and the consequent effect on the troops, I maintain that the principle solution lies in the provision of modern, reliable aircraft. General availability of additional personnel cannot really solve this particular problem.

Extra troops would allow the Army to give each unit longer between deployments, but the size of the airbridge task would remain the same. Alternatively, an enlarged army would see more units deployed as reinforcements, which would increase the airbridge task. Moreover, as additional frontline units would still deploy as battalion/battle-group sized formations, with R+R plans based on maintaining a percentage of establishment, the number of personnel with disrupted R+R would soar as the airbridge came under greater strain.

A larger army, with a longer period between tours, would give the MoD the option to ease the airbridge burden by removing the R+R entitlement and requiring the troops to do a 6-month uninterrupted deployment, but that would be a highly controversial decision.

The MoD ought to be watching what is happening in the commercial world and taking a suitable opportunity to acquire the right type aircraft to operate the airbridge. Sadly though, I don't think they are capable of moving quickly enough to identify, procure and introduce such aircraft into service in a time-scale that is quick enough to make such an interim project worth attempting before FSTA arrives. I assume that rapid introduction of an Air Transport capability is now the priority for the FSTA project?

[glum]

It would also help if the Army would think carefully about the transport available, and try to fill each Tristar that comes though by careful planning.

Asking for a last minute extra frame, then only half filling the next two jets is a waste of their money, and the hours on the airframes - not to mention keeping them in the air rather than at home where they can at least be fixed rather than turned round and back out again in a matter of hours. Old girls need time to prepare themselves for a night out!:p

There are a lot of pieces in the air bridge jigsaw, and every part has an effect on availability and reliability.

It goes without saying that a Comp A or Aeromed are the exeptions to this, and will always get the fastest reponse possible!:ok:

[KeepItTidy]

Few of us are currently at a location in the sunny regions where the tristar frequents through and we have been told when we returning to the UK we are not allowed on it even if it was empty. All to do with Army controlling all air movements , kind of sums up th Army controlling air assets. Its really disapointing as we have an extra week added to our duty in gulf to compensate ofr movement in and out of theatre . Im in the RAF and it takes me 3 days to get here :/ . And does not help movers at a certain Oxford place being so anal about hand luggage NVM its the Air force not the Fair Force

[Sideshow Bob]

I would venture to suggest that it is manifestly unwise to declare publically which sub-species of TriShaw may or may not have self protection systems fitted....

BEagle,
If you read my post carefully you'll notice I used the caveat "at the time". Which means I'm not giving away the present fit of the fleet but the fit as of 2 years ago!!:ugh: As someone who still has to operate into and out of theatre weekly I certainly would not give away the present fit of the aircraft I operate but please feel free to continue to point out the bl**dy obvious.

[Mobile Muppet]

KIT

Just shows how little most of you know. Bzz movers do get anal over hand luggage size! But it was 216 who directed us to be more strick with size as some Army lads were turning up with bergens as hand luggage for the C2 and on the KC1 its more of an issue.

As I said before, get your facts right before you post drivel or pass blame.

MM

[KeepItTidy]

Dont get stroppy with me Mobile Muppet I just stating known fact that all people i travelled with the day I came into theatre said the same thing. In the long bus journey to the gateway to hell we were informed on that morning we arived of new changes, we had lads in front of the movers removing wash kits, underwear in front of many others cause 6kg is the new limit or the size of a laptop.I am not Army,we were breifed on the day to remove all excess clothing from our rucksacks including wash kits to save weight yet lumbering a huge amount of ****ty body armour that has no purpose at all to the location we were heading. The inept attitude of the movement staff to issue orders to units of this change just shows what unproffesional we have become. The way they spoke to people was upsetting to most people including many higher than me. I like all realise we have jobs to do but some cnut with a RAF Staple belt being a stroppy arse to guys that have to go OOA to do a REAL job , its stuff we dont need. For once the good old way of being polite and treat people how you would like is a lesson we really need to develop

[14greens]

Mobile!! interesting you say 216 "instructed" you to be more strict.

Applying any of the rules might be usefull, big problem with the airbridge is the need for in theatre kit that has to be carried on board, if ya then take a bergen as hand luggage, and yr lap top and a bag full of naafi sarnies etc etc, creates a bit of a problem, overhead lockers can only hold so much, rest has to go under the seat in front do ya start to understand the problem??

Boys and girls going in to theatre need certain kit agreed, some of the other stuff they get seen trying to bring up the stairs is a joke.

[Fat Lad]

14G,

To amplify what MM alluded to above, unfortunately the KC1 T* is totally unsuited to the transport of pax to the Theatres, but a combination of the quantity of troops that have to be moved, and the availability of C2s, ensures that options are limited. While the C2 possesses civi-standard overhead lockers, the KC1’s stowage for cabin baggage is little more than a ‘hat rack’, so in the event of the merest hint of turbulence loose articles can be thrown around the cabin. Hence, it is considered a flight safety risk by some elements, and unique standards have to be applied to the carriage of cabin baggage. To the 150+ pax travelling to/from the Theatres this factor can appear rather trivial, so skilful and comprehensive briefing is required.:):)

Standard lockers cannot be added to the aircraft as a mod because it would obstruct pallets when the frame operates in a freighter role.:ok:

Jeez, good job that we all play for the same team, eh?

[Mobile Muppet]

Damned if you do, damned if you dont !

Seems we cant win eh :)

[Sideshow Bob]

14greens
Don't you love it when someone tells you how to operate your own aircraft :ok:

[L1011GE]

To amplify what MM alluded to above, unfortunately the KC1 T* is totally unsuited to the transport of pax to the Theatres, but a combination of the quantity of troops that have to be moved, and the availability of C2s, ensures that options are limited. While the C2 possesses civi-standard overhead lockers, the KC1’s stowage for cabin baggage is little more than a ‘hat rack’, so in the event of the merest hint of turbulence loose articles can be thrown around the cabin. Hence, it is considered a flight safety risk by some elements, and unique standards have to be applied to the carriage of cabin baggage. To the 150+ pax travelling to/from the Theatres this factor can appear rather trivial, so skilful and comprehensive briefing is required.

Standard lockers cannot be added to the aircraft as a mod because it would obstruct pallets when the frame operates in a freighter role.

Jeez, good job that we all play for the same team, eh?

A know all passenger...what a knobber

[Ayla]

L1011 GE

last post a bit harsh don't you think, not much wrong with what the fat lad said!

[14greens]

side show, yep glad someone has explained that to me!!!!!!!!!!! damn, if only i had know this over all these years
glad they explained it

Only pointed out that the hand luggage regulations that are there should be applied by the blokes who check folk in do ya not think, all the sqn "asked" was some sense was applied, never yet seen the movers respond to anything that anybody has insisted on but am still amazed at what passengers coming wandering out of the terminal with under there arms.

Thanks for the tech lesson tho fat lad, shall we discuss ACS next

[Mobile Muppet]

14 greens/l1011ge

Perhaps if u remove your heads from your arses you will see fat lad has only posted 4 times and perhaps doesn't know who everyone is on the forum or what they do? He was just trying to explain something.

A know it all passenger knobber he may be in your eyes, well he seems to be in the company of know it all aircrew and GE knobbers to.

BTW just as you probably are L1011GE, I'm really glad your out of the RAF :)

MM

[14greens]

MM oohhh touchy

like my head up mine sun shines out of it very brightly!!!!

L1011 GE one of the best ones shame to lose him so give over with the personal digs on people you dont know

As for fat lad commenting, if he knows so much about the trimotor my user name should give him a hint that we might know summat about the gent

Now lets get back to the origional point of this thread, has the bloke! who ran in to the jet at akt and ran away been sorted out yet?

[14greens]

but reading back

Bit harsh calling him a nobber!!! who says he is a passenger anyhow!!!
So on that point fair call MM

[Fat Lad]

L1011GE,

Would you believe that some suggest that the standard of debate on pprune has declined in recent times?

I am confident that your natural wit and general good humour will be missed in the RAF; best of luck in civi-street, chap....

[L1011GE]

Dry your eyes princess....

How would you like the troops to get into theatre?

How about we borrow a few private jets to ferry them around.??

The KC1 is (last time I saw one) a passenger/freighter/tanker aircraft.

Flight safety has been looked at many times over the years the T* has been in service.

That is why all hand baggage should fit UNDER the seat in front.

Hat racks are ....err Hat racks...and soft items only.

If a flak jacket will not fit under the seat, then wear it!!!

Civilian airlines have the similar rules about hand baggage ie in the locker or under the seat..

That way in the unlikely event of an emergency the aisles are kept clear and YOU might be able to egress from your seat without falling over or getting snagged on lots of Bergens.

My apologies if you are not a passenger...or a knobber......

[MADTASS]

Just out of interest, what happened. Did he put JET.A in when it should have been Avgas or what. What was the outcome.

[taxydual]

MADTASS, I think you may have bowled a googly with your post. The 'crowd' may start boo'ing you in a mo.

If I were you, I would start a new thread on your Basset question. OK, you'll probably get booed by that crowd too. Don't take it to heart though. The 99.9% of ppruners are harmless.

Regards.

[brit bus driver]

No idea, but I bet a mover drove a set of steps into the bowser, thereby rendering the fuel category illegible.:}























Sorry, I just could not resist, even though i have absolutely no idea what he's referring to!

[Airborne Aircrew]

A staple belt eh? why would he need a belt to keep his staples in? Is that like an extreme form of admin kit?Obvious really... The staples are in his stomach to help him lose all that weight he gained by not doing his bi-annual fitness test - the fat, lazy fekker!!!!












Like shooting fish in a barrel.... :}

[Logistics Loader]

Cornish strom chaser::

you have answered your question...why you cant stay on at BZZ....

MOD CHARTER AKT-BZZ.....

as such, the MOD only pays for the the use of the civvy a/c from AKT-BZZ..!!

if pax were carried BZZ-NCL then MOD would cop the bill...

during my time in Germany we rountinely had the Britannia Airways flights on charter..however,
at times the flight number from Gutersloh was RR8951F....
the "F" meaning ferry flight back to Luton for the holiday charter from there that night. This meant no MOD pax could be loaded.

An example being, at the time it was around £8,000 to charter one way for the 737. Even a Comp Alpha passenger in theory could not be loaded but there are ways round it..

To All:

Tristar Hand Luggage...!!!

In fact all hand luggage is governed by CAA/FAA rules..

Hypothetical scenario...

(Hand baggage weight limit 9lbs...)
Tristar makes crash landing... (G factor of 3g is estimate for this)

you survive the crash but someones hand baggage weighing 25lbs shoots through the cabin, hits the back of your head..!!

25lbs x 3g = 75lbs.... result broken neck/death !!

Movers dont make the rules/policy

Just try to enforce them for the "know it all" passenger who checks in !!!

Watch Airline on TV and see the same type of "throbber pax" who think they know it all !!

Case closed

[HEDP]

Using the same rationale then how will the litigation fare when the maximum design weight of the seat harnesses are exceeded by someone wearing body armour and is then injured in the same scenario you just gave.

Surely we can't cherry pick the CAA rules to suit the argument can we!

Practicality in a military environment must surely be balanced against risk otherwise the same restrictions would apply in a host of other scenarios.

HEDP

[brit bus driver]

Tristar Hand Luggage...!!!

In fact all hand luggage is governed by CAA/FAA rules..



No it's not. The military do not have to adhere to CAA or FAA rules. Mil AT adopts industry best practice - in order to render any risk as low as reasonably practicable, iaw JSP 550 - where it is feasible without undue impact on the operation. The rules regarding hand baggage are framed by Pax Pol, in consulatation with 2 Gp, and signed off in JSP 327 (I think); it's a purple book, I know that much.

[BEagle]

For years passengers have been encouraged to bend the rules regarding hand luggage in the TriStar.

For example, when travelling to RAF Mount Pleasant via Ascension, you always had to take 'overnight kit' in your hand luggage, in case the weather in the South Atlantic forced a diversion - or the aircraft broke down in Ascension. As well as taking all the paperwork required for a short detachment (never needed in Incirlik though). Yet the hand baggage allowance was totally inadequate, so everyone ignored the limit.....

I feel sorry for those who have to travel in the KC1 - on one hand you are told to take your war kit with you so that it is readily available, yet on the other you are told that it is somehow supposed to fit under the seat in front.....

The accepted norm for civil aircraft is a bag with total dimensions of 115 cm, usually 55 x 40 x 20, which may not weigh more than 8 kg. Some airlines allow instead a folding garment bag - e.g. 57 x 54 x 15 on Lufthansa.

If you are obliged to carry more than this, the aircraft should be designed to cater accordingly.

I don't know what 'standard weights' are used these days, but the old 80 kg per head plus 20 kg of baggage (total) each always seemed very low to me, when you saw the kit which some took on board.

[Logistics Loader]

so bus driver, does the RAF just throw DAC onboard without any rules??

ie....

ICAO or JSP335 DAC regs..!!

oh f#*K it, lets make it up as we go along as no-one gives a rats backside !!

until it all goes t1ts up !! then blame the movers for not doing there job...!!
ICAO is a civil document that the trade uses to ensure cargo is packed according to regulations, JSP335 is more specific to Military equipment not covered by the ICAO..

by the way, are all the airways in the world military airways...??
i think not...
they are set up for all flyers but as most aircraft in the air are civil carriers then CAA/FAA rules apply to all...that was my understanding of the rules..

Auntie Bets flying club are further down the food chain old boy in my book..

best laugh i had was a VC10 capt asking me if the Loadie was stacking bags in the rear hold...!!

after i picked myself up from a severe laughing fit...he wasnt impressed when i said i have never seen a loadie stack bags on a 10...!! not in 3 tours at BZZ or anywhere for that matter...

Anyone remember the "pins pulled" saga at BZZ circa Op Corporate..??

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

DAC...................thought the subject was hand baggage...............:rolleyes:

[Wycombe]

....and I thought the "pins pulled" incident actually happened at ASI?

Sorry, you can go back to the topic now!

[Chugalug2]

LL:

by the way, are all the airways in the world military airways...??
i think not...
they are set up for all flyers but as most aircraft in the air are civil carriers then CAA/FAA rules apply to all...that was my understanding of the rules..


Are all the airways in the world CAA/FAA airways....?
I think not...
Aircraft operate to the rules of the Aviation Authority governing that operator, with the additional obligation to obey the national restrictions of the airspace in which they fly. As regards the first requirement, UK military aircraft are supposed to operate to the rules laid down by their Aviation Authority, ie the MOD and its individual Commands. I say supposed to because it has been abundantly clear from other threads that the MOD's Airworthiness Regulations are not, and have not been for some time, properly enforced. Now we see from this thread that the basic cabin safety and weight and balance rules are subject to "needs must" interpretation. The sooner enforcement authority is removed from the MOD and placed with an independent authority charged with that duty the sooner the spectre of the next avoidable accident coming down the line can be diminished.

[14greens]

i just ask the question of Loggie loader
why would you see a loady stacking bags, if yr there to see it should you not be then doing it? is that not yr job?

[k1rb5]

Come on down to bays 16-17 sometime. We're all muckers down there.

:ok:

[Sideshow Bob]

Logistics Loader

best laugh i had was a VC10 capt asking me if the Loadie was stacking bags in the rear hold...!!

after i picked myself up from a severe laughing fit...he wasnt impressed when i said i have never seen a loadie stack bags on a 10...!! not in 3 tours at BZZ or anywhere for that matter...

Why would he be stacking bags, surely he is paid to supervise muppets like you, not assist you. If he was there to help, then surely there would be greater parity in pay?

[taxydual]

Any word of what happened to the guy who clobbered the Tri* in the first place?

Last heard, he was having a laugh, joke then finger prodded by the crew. Anyone know the outcome?

Just curious, that's all.

[Arty Fufkin]

I'm sure they've found him emloyment more suited to his skills. To use him as a chock would be best.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Arty,

The problem with your theory is that your average chock is quite useful whereas your average mover......................:p

[dmussen]

Yep,
It was a Beagle. The pilot and our C.O. were killed. Avtur just doesn't work in piston aircraft. I didn't know that people ended up in jail though.

[fastener]

Sorry, but without all the "Who did what's". Do you not think its time that the RAF chucked the Tristars? There is a good reason the airlines don't use them anymore. With the anual maintanance bill alone you could probably run A330's (or similar) all day. Spares are no problem, and you can get them fixed anywhere in the world. Most of the charter airlines have untilisation of around 5,000 hours per year, exactly the same amount of time it takes to locate most spares for the Tri. The troops/service personnel deserve a reliable, dependable service. I worked Tri's in the 80's and they were cr$p then so chr%st knows what they must be like then. With reliable a/c you could even have, shock horror, a schedule. If that F*ck witt over at Paddy Air can pull it off why not Betties Flying Circus. There are much cheaper viable options available.
OK rant over, I just think you guys and galls deserve better! Just don't get me started on the Nimrod project, for the price of that $%%^^&* Grrr! you could have funded what you needed x 4 and still have cash for decent carpets!

[philrigger]

;)
It was a Beagle. The pilot and our C.O. were killed. Avtur just doesn't work in piston aircraft. I didn't know that people ended up in jail though.


- They didn't.



'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[diginagain]

AIDU, I'm afraid you'll have to go all the way back to post #89 for the Bassett inject.

[Sideshow Bob]

fastener,
The old girls are not actually that unreliable, if you look at our departure/arrival stats you'd see this. The main reason civvies stopped using the old girl is because she burns 8000kg a hour and requires 3 on the flight deck. Our main problems come from either external sources (movers wanting to mate their vehicles with our aircraft, bird strike on take off yesterday, ect) or the bit of kit we strapped to the old girl to make sure it is safe to go where the civvies won't. The problem with the airbridge stems from the fact we only have a small fleet of C2/C2A's (passenger aircraft for the uninitiated). If the departing aircraft is not fit for task for any reason then we have 3 options, wait for a C2/C2A to arrive back so it can go straight back out on the next task or transfer the task to a freighter fitted out with passenger seats (time consumimg, gives us ZFW and baggage issues) or not go and cause slippage in the airbridge that has to be caught up later. Unfortunately due to unservicability caused by a lot of outside factors recently, we have had to do all 3 of the above a lot over the past 2 months. The ideal solution would be to more spare C2/C2A's, the idea has been voiced, whether it will happen is another thing (bet the FSTA contractors would have something to say about it). Anyway not my problem any more I'm posted:p

[Airborne Aircrew]

or the bit of kit we strapped to the old girl to make sure it is safe to go where the civvies won't.I have a perfect, (read: government), solution for the Tristar problem. In the future all troops being sent to sandy places will be HALO trained. Then we can use civilian kites and the troops can be dropped from 25,000' keeping the civvies a$$es safe while paying them many thousands of pounds more than they really should be. This can be funded by cuts in manning levels of the transport fleet withing the RAF... Result... :}

[Beeayeate]

It was a Beagle. The pilot and our C.O. were killed. Avtur just doesn't work in piston aircraft. I didn't know that people ended up in jail though.

'Twas a Basset, from 26 Sqn at Wyton. I was on the sqn at the time and was one of the blokes who shouldered the coffin. A few of us flew up to Valley in an Andover to pick up our sqn CO (pilot) and nav. Valley's CO, a passenger, was also killed. dmussen, when you say "our CO" do you mean Valley's CO or 26 Sqn's?


.

[14greens]

airborne aircrew, ah that shows what you know eh? whats the height of the hills round there?
Think about it, would have to be higher than 25k

ooh and well said sideshow
you will miss it really

[Airborne Aircrew]

We'll send Apaches after any remaining ground threat... :}

[glhcarl]

Out of intrest do Lockheed still support the aircraft or will RAF take over design authority
I can't speak with certainity for the current situation but when I retired from at the end of Febuary 2002, Lockheed provided on-site technical support at BZN. They also provided ad hoc engineering support from the L-1011 Support Center.

When I retired an other Lockheed engineer replaced me at BZN and worked til 2004 or 2005, when Lockheed lost the support contact to Marshall.

Marshall has had design authority for the modifications required for the Tankers and Tanker/Freighters, but Lockheed still maintained design authority for the remainder of the aircraft and the PAX aircraft.

I know the L-1011 Support Center is still operating (with a much reduced staff) but how much support they currently provide to the RAF, I can not be sure.

[dmussen]

beeayeate,

I am sure it was our C.O. on his way to a Training Command pow wow somewhere. I was on no.75 course flying Gnats at the time. Best fun you could have with your clothes on.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Is the RAF the largest single operator of the Tristar these days?

[Sideshow Bob]

The Helpful Stacker,
Sure is.

glhcarl,
Everything is done by Marshalls now, even the AP's. Don't mension the glass flt deck upgrade though, cos they done one of their usual jobs on that!! :ugh: Why didn't we learn when we let them fit secure comms, the test switch for the comms now lights up the flying control warning panel!! :ugh::ugh:

[parapauk]

Is the RAF the largest single operator of the Tristar these days?

Yes

Lockheed L-1011 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-1011#Aircraft_in_service)

Next largest is Air Rum with 5, registered in Sierra Leone, band in the EU.

;)

[glhcarl]

Is the RAF the largest single operator of the Tristar these days?


Next largest is Air Rum with 5, registered in Sierra Leone, band in the EU.


As of the end of June 2008 there were twenty (20) L-1011's still in operational service. Of these the RAF flys nine (9), no other operator has more than two (2).

[Sideshow Bob]

band in the EU

If they are only a band whilst they are in the EU what do they do the rest of the time? :8

[RS30]

I think the RAF (or the classic jet air transport memorial flight as it is rapidly becoming) is also the largest operator of the VC10:} That is unless you count all those cheap Russian pirate knock-off copies called the IL-62!

[parapauk]

I think you mean ONLY VC10 operator.

[RS30]

I think you'll find a couple are open to the public in museums as well:p

[gar170]

I think you'll find a couple are open to the public in museums as wellhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Also known as BZZ

[cobhan122]

The RAF would have more Tristars if Marshall were more efficient and used their resources wisely. The glass cockpit upgrade is being supplied by a Philadelphia based avionics company - they are way behind schedule with their deliveries. Secondly, Marshall have taken it on themselves to make the electronic control module for the Fuel tank inerting (think: Marshalls designing avionics? - what do metal bashers Marshall know about building avionics?). This module will also be late and will cost the ARC IPT a fortune. Marshall could have use their engineers to work on avionc installation aspects (which they do know something about) but no, Marshall decided to do this work themselves (at enormous expense and long delays)with the result that a valuable RAF Tristar has now taken root in Hangar 17 in Cambridge.

Would love to know how Marshall plans to Certify (DO178) the Tristar module -they are so naive whem it comes to the complexities of certifying avionics/software!

RAF - demand that your Tristar gets the priority!

[Wader2]

Surely it depends on how far the bag has travelled across the cabin. The G-force would start to decrease after the initial movement of the bag so it would in fact weigh less than 75lbs as it came into contact with your head. Also, shouldn't the passenger be in the brace position during a crash landing?

This shows a misunderstanding of the physics. It is true that the weight of an object as rest under one G would weight, in this case, 25lb but under the G conditions its weight would increase, ie at 3 G it would be 75lbs. The mass of the object remains at 25lb. The weight of 75lbs however would be brought to bear on whatever restraint system was used to contain it.

If the lid of the locker was rated to secure 50lbs then the 25lb mass under 3 G would burst from the locker.

Once free the 25lb mass would accelerate because of the force of the crash at 3 G. If it came into contact with your head, as it left the locker, it would again have a weight of 75lb. This is the value of its momentum.

It would maintain this momentum over whatever distance (in the aircraft) until the energy was absorbed by something else, your head in this instance. Given an unobstructed path is could maintain almost all this momentum down the length of the aircraft.

A passenger in the brace position might be safe in the even of the crash but, paradoxically a braced passenger would absorb more of the bag momentum as he was braced.

A forward facing passenger would probably suffer less from being hit from behind as the bag might tumble on whereas a rearward facing passenger might cop the lot.

Well, that's my take on it.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Wader, not entiiirely correct....

So we have a crash, and the tristar decelerates at 3g consistently over the space of a second or 2 (for our hypothetical scenario!) , in a direction that causes the luggage to want to leave said overhead locker through it's weakest point (the door latch one might reasonably assume).

So our 25lb luggage hits the locker door at a velocity based on it's acceleration (3g - ie 3x9.81ms-2, so about 29.5 meters per second per second) and the distance between it and the locker door. This is the "initial impact" may or may not break the door, depending on it's designed strength. Then, if we assume the luggage is now sitting on the door, it will exert a force of 3x its weight at 1g, so your "75lb" example.

Which is the bigger of the two forces will depend on how tightly your overhead bin is packed (i.e. how much distance the luggage has to accelerate over at 3g) and how "squidgy" your luggage is (i.e. it's compressibility. This relates to the distance over which it will decelerate, thus affecting the force needed to slow it down to rest relative to the bin door using F=ma)

Two examples of the above:

A 25lb small hard briefcase resting at the back of the overhead bin by itself at the moment of crash: Leaps forwards through the locker at impacts with a forward corner of the door. Say the distance of travel is 1m. Using Vsqd = Usqd + 2aS (i.e (End Velocity) squared is equal to the (initial velocity) squared + twice the acceleration times the distance traveled)

So, Vsqd = 0 + 2x29.5x1

Vsqd = 59

V=7.7 meters per second(1dp)

So the briefcase hits the door at 7.7ms-1. It then decelerates to "rest" (relative to the door, which is itself slowing down at the same time, but essentially starts leaning on the door and being decelerated by it). If we say the briefcase is metal, and the corner dents inwards by approximately 1cm we can use vsqd = usqd + 2as again to calculate the deceleration.

End velocity, V = 0 (relative to the door, our frame of reference for this entire calculation)
Initial velocity U = 7.7ms-1 (see above)
Distance travelled, S = 1cm, or 0.01m (dent in corner of case)
Deceleration, our unknown = a
So

0 = 59 + 0.02a

-59 = 0.02a

a= -2950ms-2

or 300g!

So this would put 100 times the force on your luggage bin door than just a simple bag already resting on it weighing the same. The morale is: Dont allow your "load" to shift in flight, as all good loadies will know!


(I suspect there's bound to be an error in there somewhere, maths was never my strong point! So flame away... But it shows a point)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

and pause for breath....

as for the impact with the passenger at the other end.....

The damage is done when said luggage sheds its' kinetic energy into your head through deceleration...

as Kin.NRG = 1/2 MVsqd, with the end velocity being dependent on the acceleration and distance travelled (see previous post), the damage depends on essentially how much the object weighs, how far it is allowed to travel and the relative acceleration/deceleration over that distance. (ie does the mighty Tri* continue to decelerate at 3g for the entire time of flight of the bag, and wehere does the bag's "journey" start from, is it slowed by the bin door etc etc etc). One of the things to remember is that it is not the bag that is accelerating, it is the Tri* that is decelerating. If that continues over the time of flight of the bag (quite short) then your assertion is pretty much correct Wader.


(I've bored even myself!)

[14greens]

so all the call for charter aircraft to provide the airlift!!!!!
who would be picking up the pieces if poor XL still had the FI contract

Latest rumour for next contract company to pick up that run is a company that have just been prosecuted by the FAA and CAA for flying outside the MEL with no good reason

Its been proven in the past with the US Miltary go for the cheapest option with yr charter and it will bite you.
Big difference with what we do and what the civvies do, is we are extremely safety minded where civvies are finance driven. Thats why the when we have a snag if there is a doubt we dont fly, where the civvies, may push it, I know I have been in the civvy world and been pushed to carry stuff!

[L1011GE]

At least my models don't have dented ailerons......unless you want a mover special...

Still available from Manila PM me for details

[collbar]

Call for Charter.. errrr.. They already have, operating from Exeter for a couple of weeks I think you'll find. Why have you not heard about it!!!! Because its running on rails.... Does involve a 2 hour stop to crossload to C17's. Standby for Tristar abuse!

[Kengineer-130]

:ugh: after 2 days of trying to get out to a hot dusty place on a tri (or shuld that be bi motor? :}), they gave up and sent a C-17 instead :ok:.... time to buy some new jets I think :E

[BEagle]

If I recall correctly, it was because the Basset aircraft had been refuelled with Avtur, not Avgas.

This lead to 'segregated refuelling' at Training Command aerodromes (such as Leeming), which operated both piston and jet aircraft - the fuel bowsers had totally different routes to the flight line and procedures were put in place to ensure that an Avtur bowser couldn't enter the piston flight line and vice versa.

[ArthurR]

If I remember rightly, the wrong fuel caused engine failure, the reason for the Injuries, was because the aircraft hit a dry stone wall, after it came down in a field.

[Mike Read]

I don't know the details of the Basset accident at Valley, other than being told by the then station commander, Gp Capt later AVM Brian Huxley CB CBE who as a passenger was badly injured, that the aircraft had been refuelled with avtur (or avtag). He survived to become a RAFVR(T) flight lieutenant staff pilot with 6 AEF at Abingdon and Benson. When I saw him last year he was fit and enjoying retirement.

[dionysius]

T* u/s at BHX, tech team arriving from BZZ today, problems with flaps I believe so it may be there a day or so !!. no doubt this will impact on the Herrick Airbridge :bored:

[Arty Fufkin]

No, not really. Airbridge aircraft and spare available at BZZ as usual.

[Mobile Muppet]

Bit of the flap fell off according to the cleaner!

Spare a/c at Brize, thats servicable, well i hope so

MM

[flytrap]

Aircraft sometimes go u/s shock!:bored:
No doubt the Tri* crew just wanted a night out in Brum shock!:}
Maybe if the army stopped half/quarter filling the herrick airbridge flights the whole thing could be done more efficiently shock!:rolleyes:
Airbridge runs like it always does, never more than 24 hours delayed. If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have signed up to Bob's Moustachioed Party Fun Bus.

[Vage Rot]

So when is there an excuse for making a mistake?

Obviously you have an excuse when you make a mistake.
Obviously (in your eyes) there is no excuse for others making a mistake DOING THEIR JOB.

Grow up and wise up.

So - it was you then SRENNAPS:D

[SRENNAPS]

So - it was you then SRENNAPS

Not me mate. I work on satellite systems these days.
But I stand by my words.
Carry on!

[dionysius]

Still sat on ground at BHX apparently awaiting a part to be built and delivered from Canada :confused:

[foxvc10]

Yep, thats where Marshalls source all their parts for the Timmy now. Seems a bit silly, especially with AOG's.

[Wander00]

No Tristars parked out getting their paint faded by the destert sun?

[Gainesy]

Understand there are still a few at Billy Bob's Tri-Us-First Vintage Jets Inc in deepest Arizona.

[glhcarl]

I am a little confused (which is nothing new) but the three C2 RAF TriStars operated over 900 flights and 3200 flight hours (combined) in the first six months of this year. That is over five flights a day for the three aircraft. That is a nearing commercial utlization numbers numbers, so they can't be AOG very often, or for very long.

[Sook]

The C2s did less than 800 flights in the whole of 2008, so your figure is probably for all nine aircraft.

I guess with most of the Tristars sitting in the States, getting the spares from Canada is probably not as silly as it seems. From what I recall, a lot of the RAF spares are held in Germany.

[Gainesy]

Your last paragraph is a bit confusing Sook, can you expand?

[Sook]

As someone said above, Marshalls get their spares from somewhere in Canada. The RAF already have spares (control surfaces, etc), but they're not all held at Brize, they can be all over the place. Germany was somewhere that was mentioned, but I believe there was talk of moving them somewhere sandy so they're closer to the Depth Maintenance Organisation (ADAT).

[ajl146]

It finally departed this afternoon after a long wait. I hope the crew enjoyed Brum.

[brit bus driver]

I rather suspect the crew were put on a bus for the whole hour's journey back to Brize. ;)

[14greens]

funny thing, was talking to an army bod that was on one of the last charter jets out of Iraq! think he said they were 57hrs late!
spooky it was not a TriStar
Nobody seemed to notice that one or could not be bothered to mention it as it was not a Trimotor
Think it was 3rd company in the charter chain that eventualy got out there!!!!

[glhcarl]

The C2s did less than 800 flights in the whole of 2008, so your figure is probably for all nine aircraft.


You are correct, there was an error in my source. The numbers should have been for the previous 12 months. From July 1, 2008 to June 31, 2009 the C2 combined fleet flew 926 flights and 3248 hours.