"The MPL is a superb system for becoming an aviator"

[greenedgejet]

"The MPL is a superb system for becoming an aviator"

So says Flight's David Learmont. However, news from Sterling is all 9 MPL pilots have been laid off in the economic downturn and are finding it almost impossible to get another job without re-training:

Downturn throws MPL pilots on scrapheap (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/08/08/310559/downturn-throws-mpl-pilots-on-scrapheap.html)

Would you go for an MPL now? - Airline News Forum - AirSpace (http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/forums/would-you-go-for-an-mpl-now-15179.aspx#18503)

[angelorange]

Is the MPL airline specific then?

[mattpilot]

I've been told it is.

Nothing like being stuck at an airline and having no bargaining power. I foresee lower wages should the majority of future pilots go this route.

[BerksFlyer]

Nothing like being stuck at an airline and having no bargaining power. I foresee lower wages should the majority of future pilots go this route.

I agree. Isn't the whole idea of it making it cheaper and easier to train pilots? Hence the value of said pilot will go down.

[no sponsor]

I think the difficulty is that most airlines today require a CPL/IR. The MPL does not have such a thing in the qualification - they don't fly a piston twin for their IR, and don't ever do such a thing as a x-country. Airlines don't have a MPL box on their application form, so in essence don't recognise it.

[potkettleblack]

No doubt some amount of "politiking" will be going on in the background. Afterall its not in the interests of either the airlines or the regulatory bodies to have the MPL seen as a failure. I would expect some sort of exemption given to the 9 people caught out so that they can transfer their MPL type ratings to another operator and fly.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Never trust anything that comes out of David Learmounts mouth and NEVER EVER believe anything marketed by a flying school or its associations.

MPL was always designed to enslave cadets to their particular airlines like a mill owner owning your house and paying you in tokens to be spent in the company shop.

WWW

[sidtheesexist]

I seem to recall a very lengthy thread on this topic some considerable time ago - the debate got very heated if I recall. Interesting to see if the then proponents of said scheme have a view on this situation?

[Spunky Monkey]

I agree.
To me it would seem that the cadets going through this scheme thought they were stealing a march on everybody else.

Sadly it has back fired on them.

Its okay if you want to spend the rest of your working career flying 737's for the same airline.

Not the best thoughtout plan by these cadets and very underhand by the airlines and regulatory bodies.

There should be one standard of pilot all doing the same training route, not people missing out large chunks and then reducing the wages / bargaining power for the rest of us.

[Don K]

#2 No, the MPL is not airline specific. A holder of a MPL can get a job at another airline on another type just as well as any other holder of a cpl/meir. Well...thats the purpose.

#4 No, it is not the intention of the MPL, the intention is to make a pilot education aimed at the right hand seat of a multi pilot a/c. Focus being on CRM.

The difference between a cpl and the mpl, is that in the mpl, it says " MEIR Multi Pilot Only"

[Ayla]

Well said Don, I can't believe how misinformed people are about this licence. Can I suggest people look at ICAO Annex 1, JAA FCL1, EASA NPA 17B. Its all written down.

[Conan The Barber]

The difference between a cpl and the mpl, is that in the mpl, it says " MEIR Multi Pilot Only" Then what is the point?

[rogerg]

As I see it the MPL student spends a lot more time in training flying more sophisticated sims and doing lots of CRM/MCC work. This makes them better prepared for the work as a P2 in in the class of aircraft that they could expect to be employed on. Must be more practical than loads of hours in the various light aircraft that they use now.

[BerksFlyer]

What happens when it comes to promotion to captain if one has an MPL?

[Don K]

# 12 If you had qouted the line above, or just read it, you would know!

[Conan The Barber]

Don K,

I had expected an informed comment, not a glib retort. I did read your post and that lead me to ask the question.

[rogerg]

What happens when it comes to promotion to captain if one has an MPL?

You do a command conversion, the same as any F/O who exceeds the airlines minimum experience.

[Captain_djaffar]

I wonder how it can be airline specific...does the syllabus entitle the course providers to use own-company SOP or specific aircraft (Boeing,Airbus etc...) SOP?

But even if its airline specific, i dont see the big deal for the drivers to find another airline for they only got to adapt to only new SOPs...am right innit??????:rolleyes:

[RVR800]

My understanding is that an MPL converts to an ATPL at 1500 therefore at that stage another type rating could be done with another airline. It's just that the MPL guy will have more multi-crew time at that point - therefore more marketable.

Although you could go to another airline with the MPL type rating e.g. A320 as FO before that point I believe

Isn't the idea to train a multi crew airline pilot rather than a single crew light aircraft pilot and so may get them a job directly.

They wont be flying around NDB holds in a clapped out baby-twin with one engine on idle for hours looking at a six pack single crew display and spending £400/hour - instead they will be training to fly an airliner instead.

[rogerg]

six pack single crew display I do agree with what you say but what is one of these?

[Groundloop]

Sit next to someone that can't even fly a cessna 152?

Of course they can fly a 152 - they just don't have a licence for it!

Just shows from Duir's post just how much some people are ignorant of what the MPL consists of. The Sterling MPLs would have done 76 flying hours in light singles and twins.

[rogerg]

Its a pity that you dont read the flying requirements of a MPL licence. (post 19 shows an example). But dont let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Any way I would rather sit next to someone who can sort the fms out than one who can do chandelles in a 152. (is that how you spell chandelles?)

This was my response to duir in the MPL thread in R&N.

Hey Mods is it about time we combined the two threads?

[mackey]

Isn't the whole idea of becoming a commercial pilot to have the ability of flying SEIR?, these guys/girls wont have the SE training background.

The MEIR as all good and well but when it hits the fan and the skipper goes ill I think you will find they are back to S/IR? And before anyone starts, I realise they will be trained for this situation, but if it happens......we'll see.

I am sure there will be people reading these posts cursing this newish qualification and it could mean in the future reducing T's&C's for the rest of us.:mad:

Personally having come from the school of fcuking hard knocks, it seems alittle unfair to have done all that work for the same result.:ugh:

M.

P.S. I did not think MPL could upgrade to captain.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

MPL doesn't tie you to a particular airline or type. It doesn't stop you becoming a Captain on a multi pilot aircraft. It does have some logic to it as there is a gulf of difference between light aircraft flying and modern airliner flying.

HOWEVER.

Never ever fly the Mk1.

Those poor unemployed people now with MPL's may find that although another operator may be looking for type qualified recruits that airline may not have MPL provided for in either their AOC or their insurance policy. Doubtless this will be sorted out as MPL grows more popular (if it does). But for now, on the dole and job hunting, I'd want an old fashioned (!) JAA license CPL/IR.


WWW

[jamestkirk]

hello duir, hope all is going well.



76 hours in light SEP and MEP, WOW!. Normally those MEP hours in a Seneca or something similar are about 20. In my opinion you cannot skillfully operate a twin with those hours. Leaving the remainder in the SEP. With those hours you are just beginning to learn and not at a comfortable level. I am guessing at that hour breakdown, so please let me know what exactly they are.


Working an FMS competantly is great but sometimes hand flying skills are needed. Not all aircraft have the luxury of autoland and or 2000m + runways.

Personally, I have been to airports and in conditions that I needed to draw on my 'hand flying skills' background.

I have no rell opinion on the MPL Vs CPL/IR. Obviously there are valid arguments for both.

[rogerg]

Just so everyone knows what they are talking about this is the syllabus and experience that the Sterling MPL'ers should have had:-Pre-entry testCAPA & SterlingWeek 1 -6 PPL Theory/ Nat. Beg/ Core Flying Air Exercises 0 –5Week 7 -9 Core Flying Air Exercises 6 –10 –First SoloWeek 10 -13 Core Flying Air Exercises 11 -18Week 13 -16 Gen. Cert. –Core Flying Air Exercises 19 –24Week 17 -58 ATPL Theory –Core Flying Air Exercises 25 –34Sterling entry testWeek 58 -64 Instrument Briefings –Core Flying Air Exercises 35 –53Week 64 -67 AssumetricBriefings –Core Flying Air Exercises 54 –60Week 68 -70 MCC/TEM Ground School –Basic MCC 1 –5Week 71 -80 EM cont. –Basic MCC 6 –15Week 81 -85 Introduction and Job Rotation in Sterling AirlinesWeek 85 -86 B737 Ground School CBT/Performance/Mass and BalanceWeek 86 -87 Emergency Training –Intermediate FFS 1 –5Week 88 -89 Advanced FFS 1 –10 / MPL Skill TestWeek 90 Aircraft Training –12 Take offs and LandingsWeek 91 -100 Route Training B737 NG –100 Block hours/40 legs•A/C (1/2 eng) 76 hours•FNPT II Multieng / MCC 110 hours•B 737 Jet proc 20 hours•B 737 FFS C/D 44 hours•MPL total 250 hours•B 737 A/C approx. 1hr (12 T/O & landings)•Route trainingB737 100 hours Ads by GoogleFlying SchoolsPilot SchoolFlight InstructorAviation Schools

[jamestkirk]

thats taken you some effort to put together but does not make a point.

someone who would want to criticise may put together a modular or integrated synopsis to reflect your input. it could seem more or less concise than your own list.

[BerksFlyer]

I am sure there will be people reading these posts cursing this newish qualification and it could mean in the future reducing T's&C's for the rest of us.

It will as it's designed on the assumption that your first job will be in a multi crew environment. Hence the self improver will be further removed from the scene. No more working as an FI or flying air taxi. So it should mean more pilots in the market and lower Ts&Cs (with my logic anyway). In my mind it's just making the right seat of an airliner easier to get to (not literally perhaps) by making it the only possible way of you flying to earn.

[ford cortina]

With Mackey on this, I also came from the school of hard knocks. It is fairly easy to figure out how to use a FMC, BUT.... try flying an ILS to minima single engine RAW DATA and see how far you MPL guys get, or how about a NDB, again Raw Data??? Flying the good old twins gets you used to anything.
Now before you tell me you never do that, we I did last night for my OPC and passed. Still at least with the MPL you will know how to put a hold in!

[Adios]

Ford C,

MPL pilots will have plenty of single engine raw data training, probably more than you received.

Personally, I don't think the takeup rate for MPL is going to be very high. It includes a Type Rating and only those with half their brain tied behind their back will pay for a TR if a job is not attached. This effectively limits MPL in the UK to sponsored/tagged/mentored cadet programmes ala CTC, OAA, FTE, Cabair and only two of the four have TR facilities. Most self-sponsored students will continue with Modular or Integrated fATPL training. Some fear the Modulars will become marginalized, but I think that would only happen if airline recruiters came under mass hypnosis and accepted MPL en masse. That will never happen, so it's more likely that the MPL holders will be the marginalized ones for the first 5-10 years and these nine may be experiencing the fringe already.

[bluelearjetdriver]

What I don't understand about the Microsoft Pilot License (MPL), is there are LOADS of people out there with traditional CPL/IR's (with MCC's) already....just employ them, do the type rating and line training...and hey presto, 4 months later you have a fully qualified driver..... Surely just doing such a thing is cheaper (and quicker) than putting someone through an an ENTIRE pilot training course...

and I have been through the above process so I know it works.....

Or am I missing somthing here?!?!?!?!?!?!

[potkettleblack]

Once upon a time there were a number of large European airlines that had surplus sim availability. They dreamed of a time when they could grab a cadet that had jumped through all of their entrance tests and put them through a tailored course that was relevant to their operation. Hence the MPL was born.

Unfortunately the regulators didn't limit the course to only the airlines that had jobs available. Instead opportunistic TRTO's cottoned onto this and started to offer courses as well.

The most obvious difference to me about the MPL (or how it was supposed to work anyway) is that you have passed an airlines entry tests before embarking on the courses. Compare that with the traditional method of throwing lots of dosh at your courses and then sending out a 100 cv's wondering why no one ever calls you. Its a process of self selection and sadly there are many people that will NEVER EVER get near a commercial aircraft no matter how hard they try and how much money they throw at it.

[snuble]

With Mackey on this, I also came from the school of hard knocks. It is fairly easy to figure out how to use a FMC, BUT.... try flying an ILS to minima single engine RAW DATA and see how far you MPL guys get, or how about a NDB, again Raw Data??? Flying the good old twins gets you used to anything.
Now before you tell me you never do that, we I did last night for my OPC and passed. Still at least with the MPL you will know how to put a hold in!Then I can calm you down and assure you that we did get far. Our skill test included the standard LOFT session and a manouver session. Manouver session mostly manualy work, including approach to stall and steep turns. We also did fly manual, singel engine, raw data ils with go arounds at minima. And full procedure NDB app with pilot incapasitation. And guess what, we did pass!

And please do not think it is just an easy ride. We did have our fair share of hard knocks. If anyone here are ready for an open dicussion based facts, let me know.
The MPL licence certainly has its disadvantages, but without knowing any facts, how can one actually make up its mind?:ugh:

[mrbarvid]

is it really such a big difference?

As of now, a person can take his CPL/IR with 15-20 hrs on a twin engine with total of 150 hrs and considered done and ready for a typrating which takes approx say 40-50hrs?!
According to JAR-FCL, an MPL student are going to need at least 100hrs on a SEP (at least in Swe), and to be able to get the acctual MPL we need at least 240 hrs, where of some of it is in a full motion sim plus the MPL demands that you do 12 touch and go´s. And to "convert" to CPL/IR and MPL student requires an extra 30hrs PIC and 15 hrs in a SEP for the single engine skill test that CPL/IR requires.

Don´t get me wrong here! nothing is perfect from the begining and probably never will. There will be some issues during the implementation of this, but when you read JAR-FCL I think most people will see that it isn´t a huge difference from the "old" way. But I do agree on that you can never simulate real flying to 100% but bloddy close to it :)
A lot of focus is laid upon CRM and TEM in the MPL training.

Take care out there all aviators!!