One trial flight and I am hooked!

[GS-Alpha]

Hi Guys

I have notices that many PPL(H) questions get asked on rotorheads, so hope you do not mind me adding to them...

After years of planning to do it, but never getting around to it, I had a trial flight in an R22 the other day. I have to say I was hooked within about 10 minutes! So I have decided to go for the PPL(H) as a minimum, and possibly the CPL(H) sometime after.

First question: Do you recommend the marginally cheaper 10 hour block payments in this 'credit crunch' environment, or should I just stick to payment after each lesson? I am intending to do about 5 hours per month, so I would only be paying 2 months ahead as a maximum. Also, we are only talking £8 per hour before VAT difference, so if you think there is any risk, there is not much point in my taking it.

Second question: I want to aim for close to minimum hours (39), so what rate of training do you guys recommend to achieve this? Will 5 hours a month be enough continuity? I have to fit it in around my long haul flying, so to do more hours per month, I'd have to do some lessons on consecutive days.

The school I am planning to use is Whizzard helicopters, Welshpool. Any thoughts?

GS-Alpha

[VeeAny]

None of this is intended as a comment about Whizzard as I know nothing about them, it is intended as a general comment on the subject of paying up front.

Saving £80 at the risk of £2500 at the start of that two month period is in my opinion only worth doing if you have some personal guarantee from a director of the company you are paying. A lot of people got burnt from a company collapse that could be seen coming from miles away last year and they had all paid up front. A similar thing seems to have happened in the US earlier this year.

Some schools need to offer up front payment discounts to continue paying their bills, and if their customers start to tighten their belts due to the credit crunch, there will come a point were they can no longer meet their liabilities and the customers end up out of pocket.

I did a simlar thing to you, although with far less fixed wing experience, and managed to do only 5 hrs per year for 2 years. I then went to one hour a week and started to make progress quite quickly, I got through at 36hrs (coz you could back then). My experience as an instructor is that most experienced fixed wing pilots once they are aware of the difference make quick progress, but find it harder than they expected to.

Cheers

GS

[GS-Alpha]

Thanks for replying. I was kind of thinking that since the reduction in cost for block booking was so small, that the risk must also be small. But I guess it is more a reflection of the margins involved, rather than the risk to the student's money. I think I will just pay by the hour.

From my trial lesson, I already recognise that heli flying is a totally different kettle of fish to fixed wing, particularly since I have not had to touch a rudder peddle (other than take-off, landing and engine failure) since I stopped flying light aircraft nine years ago. Fine tuning those tail rotor inputs is definitely going to be my greatest challenge for the hover.

As for continuity; I could take a lesson every day I am home, but I personally think that would reduce my learning curve. I think I need time to reflect on a lesson, in order to absorb my mistakes and learn from them.

Anyway, as predicted, I suspect I am going to have very little spare cash ever again...

[KrisRamJ]

Personally I'd only do a block payment if you can get a better rate. I taught in Denver CO for 18 months and their rates were about 10% less for a 10hr block payment.

If you want to get through in minimum time my experience was that there was a sweet spot which varied from person to person but the general rules still applied.

At one end of the scale we had students with huge bags of cash who wanted to fly every day - they'd be done in 6 weeks but would end up flying over 70 hours to get their rating.

At the other end of the scale were casual students flying at a low rate of once a week or every two weeks; they'd end up spending the first 30 minutes of each lesson re-learning what they'd forgotten and also took a long time to get done (if they didn't run out of interest first because they felt like they were learning too slowly).

The sweet spot I encouraged my students to follow was 2 times a week for the first 20 hours slowly increasing to every other day for the last 20 hours. People who followed this generally got done in about 2-3 months and about 40-50 hours.

[chop_chop]

I did 1 hour, twice a week - that worked well for me.

I did pay 10hrs upfront at a time, but was getting 10% or so off.

Ensure that you pay by credit card, and then if they do go belly-up, you'll be covered under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.

[gulliBell]

Look at what happened to those students at Jandakot Helicopters who paid in advance, they lost the lot when the company went broke. Something to be mindful of with anything when you pay up-front.

[4ftHover]

GS - Alpha

I was in the same boat a couple of years ago - one trial lesson and i was hooked.

If you have a couple of grand of spare cash instead of buying a block of lessons tuck it away in a decent high interest account, at the mo you should be able to get 6 - 7% and draw it out for each lesson.

In terms of number of lessons, ask about what is the norm. I only know of one person to pass in 45 hours - and their father was a CFI.

I understand the average is around the 65 - 70 hours mark ( though i stand corrected )

Best of luck :ok:

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Good morning Gsa,

Most of us PPL(H) pilots started with a trial, and the term "Hooked" took on its real meaning, consider the following:-

If you are endowed with enough cash to give lumps up front, then as others have said pay by credit card, or have some sort of written undertaking from the Owner or Director of the outfit, in this day and age of high credit problems "NO ONE " is immune(See RBS PLc, Last week).

But having now got your agrrement or Credit Card cover, why not not do more training and flying per month, one problem with you only doing so many hours per month (5hrs, I think you wrote) is that you will need to spend time re-hashing part of what you have already learnt , why go over already trod ground when if you can get the time sorted out properly you should be able to double that. Looking back on my training I took two leassons per week at least and got my License at 40 hours, only at the end of my training with the Cfi prior to my flight test did we go over the many aspects of the envelope of the sylabus that I myself just wanted to tighten up on, for me it worked, why not try it this way?

Peter R-B
Vfr

[WylieCoyote]

GS Alpha,

If you fly consistantly you'll be closer to the minimum hours, I only came across a few students who came anywhere near that, a couple had fixed wing backgrounds which helped with the ground school and RT which hold up alot of people but generally they worked hard on the ground as well as in the air and had, I guess a natural appittude.
All sorts of things can crop up that could slow your training down, the weather been the main one! Work/family commitments, aircraft going tech all sorts. If you can set aside a couple of days a week for flying, which I felt worked best, you'l progress faster. If you don't get of the ground on one of the days then get some extra study in which will help you out no end in the long run.
Saying that the majority of people do need more like 60 to 70 hours, helis have more exercises to complete and lets face it to the beginner are harder to fly than planks!:E

I don't know Whizzard but I'm sure their decent guys and won't take the p*%s, they'll put you up for the test when your ready.

Good luck!

[spencer17]

@4ft hover: He is a ATPL (A). He should manage it in minimum time.

@gs alpha: Don't try to hover your big birds :E

[Highflight420]

gs alpha

Like you I'am a professional fixed wing pilot who caught the bug and went on to gain my PPL/H.

I payed for my licence up front on a credit card as I was offered a substantial discount to do so,I was happy to do this as the school I learnt at, had been established for many years with a very good reputation.

I spread my training out over six months between April and September,I didn't want to hurry through the training as i enjoyed the whole learning process so much.

That said and bearing in mind Iam a very average pilot,I completed the syllabus within about 34 hours and did additional training to make up the 39 this included a conversion to the R44,something worth considering and maybe not many students are made aware this is possible.I learnt on the Schweizer300 which I much preferred to the R22 and at the risk of upsetting R22 drivers, I think is a better training helicopter.

Good luck and enjoy

[FLY 7]

I investigated this some time ago.

Ultimately your choices will be determined by the quality and convenience of the instruction.

I found quite a lot evidence that the H/S 300Cbi or C is the better helicopter to learn on. Although the 300 is usually more expensive p/h, you may actually achieve your goal in less hours.

However, R22/44s seem to be the default choice because most schools operate them.

[Pigeon-dodger]

I think if you want to learn as close as possible to the time allowed, your best bet is a 300 CBi. No training organisation in the world (not restricted to trying to find the cheapest helicopter to buy...ie the army or airforce) has ever used an R22 over a 300 CBi. Bristow (the largest training civil operator) uses them.

Not sure if there are any your way at though...:(

stay safe.....no negative 'g' with that rotor head please.....

[bvgs]

Hi Gs my tuppence worth: I did 2 hour lessons 3 times a week and on reflection I don't think it was a good thing. I felt I flew better when I had about 4/5 days between lessons as it almost seemed as if your brain needed time to "digest" the info and trainning. I personally wouldn't pay up front unless you use your credit card and not that this would suit everybody but I bought a R22 reduced my lesson price and leased the 22 back to the school so it effectively cost me very little in terms of cash out of pocket for the trainning. This now opens a new can of worms and everyone will have different experiences, good and bad, I am just letting you know that it worked for me. I wish you all the very best and don't be put off with the really crappy days you will have, there will be many and its all part of the fun. I just couldn'thover and asked my instructior if I should give up, he laughed and said if he had a £1 etc etc. All the best and if you want any other info or advice on leasing PM me.

[GS-Alpha]

Thanks for all of the advice and good wishes everyone! I've been away in LA, but now back home for two days so I have booked another 1 hour lesson.

I was a BA cadet and I also fly radio-controlled helicopters, so I am hoping I will be in a good position to achieve the minimum hours. However, at the end of the day, I am doing it as a hobby, so if it takes more, then so be it. (It would be nice not to find myself covering old ground due to discontinuity though). It sounds like I should try and have two lessons per week. I may even try two 1 hour sessions in one day, for occasions when I am a little sparing in days at home ;o) I just know that 2 hours in one go can lead to 'brain freeze', when learning something as intense as flying a helicopter!

Hopefully I will get my hands on all the reading material on Friday too.

GS.

[wobble2plank]

GS Alpha,

Go for it and have fun. I went the other way round after flying big helos for an awfully long time. Where are the main differences????

One of the biggest challenges is hovering. The fact that the controls act differently in the hover can take a bit of getting used to. R22 have no hydraulics and are very sensitive. This often leads to a-lot of initial over controlling. Slow down, relax and try to anticipate and 'out think' the aircraft's movements. Lots of outside cues help enormously but look a long way out to the front and side and pick good solid references with vertical extent if possible. Many students get fixated on cues close in to the aircraft and that can also lead to over controlling.

The 'transition' from the hover to forward flight can also be a bit of a giggle. Inflow roll and translational lift will become your friends (or enemies).

Once the helo is in forward flight the controls are very similar to a fixed wing in many ways if a little more twitchy. The biggest shock, as you have already found out, are the rudder/yaw pedals! Don't forget that simply to accelerate in level flight you will need to cyclic forward, pull collective to maintain height and feed in yaw to overcome the increased torque (which foot depends on the rotation of the main rotor just to add to the fun ).

Fundamentally, if you are comfortable in the air, have the airmanship and RT in the bag, know the airspace and Air Law, as you must do in LH, then minimum hours to PPL(H) are perfectly achievable. Plus those long boring transits give you plenty of time to learn the bumble bee aerodynamics of helicopters. They only fly as they are so ugly the earth repels them as a friend of mine used to quote.

As spencer17 said, don't try to hover an airliner, I tried on my conversion, the bump was impressive :}

most importantly have fun, it's a whole different world and gives you a greater insight into the 'art' of flying.

pm me if you wish to know more.

[500e]

I think bvgs has a point if you can buy a 300 and get instructor to teach you, either you lease back to a school, small income hopefully. or (only you fly it my preference).
At the end you can keep the 300 or sell for a 500 or a 44:E.
Buying a 300 would have been a cost saving option for me.

[wobble2plank]

If it flies, floats or f**ks ........... rent it!

Owning an aircraft is great until the little pink chits come out from the CAA with the 'change the oil seals in the gearbox before the next flight' words on them for example.

A friend of mine has a 1/6th share in an aircraft. He is a fully licensed aircraft engineer and his quote is:

When the aircraft is serviceable I own 1/6 of it, when it's broken or in maintenance, I own 100% of it

It could be cheap but it is, like many other things in flying, a gamble. Pay per hour and, if the school folds or the aircraft breaks, you can walk away. The current climate is not good for aircraft sales.

Just a thought.....

[helimutt]

GS-Alpha, I did my PPL a while back now but got through in minimum time and it took 5 weeks from start to finish. I never flew at weekends and Feb-March wx weather in the UK put paid to a few days flying.
Having your background you will probably be up to speed very quickly as you only really have the handling to learn as a new skill set. I taught a high time ATPL(A) pilot part of his ppl(H) and he was hovering in an hour and could pretty much do everything I showed him at the first attempt. He was good, and I am below-average according to my examiner. :hmm::E
Funnily enough, the same guy taught me parts of my IR(H).

have fun with the training. Nice to see someone coming across from the dark side. :ok:

[KNIEVEL77]

Great thread.......just out of interest if you were to buy your own helicopter to train on what does it cost per year to 'keep' say a R22 i.e. the storage, maintenance, servicing etc or is that like asking 'how long is a piece of string'?

And once having gained the PPL (H) is hiring an aircraft still the way forward rather than buying one (and before anyone asks, yes I have done a search but can't find the answers, sorry).

[whyisitsohard]

Never ever ever ever pay up front. Soooooooo many peeps lose so much dosh.

D

[wallism]

I did it in 45hrs by having two jobs, each one two days a week and Wednesdays flying, regardless of weather. Compared with planks at least you can practice all the close to ground stuff even with a 300' cloud base. I did my skills test when a massive storm had just passed through. When it's nice do circuit bashing and when you pass FLY A LOT. I started in Feb and finished 6 months later. Now I have an R44 and work in aviation so crack on. Can't you just be a bit slack paying them for the 10 hr block and fly the hours first and pay later (that's what I did?)

[GS-Alpha]

KNIEVEL77

I did a bit of investigation into the cost of running an R22. Based on 100 hours per year, I reckoned on about £20k per year (insurance being a large portion), and that was without the cost of servicing a loan to buy the thing in the first place. Hiring is therefore likely to be the best option for me, unless I find myself doing more than a hundred hours per annum. (I only did a small amount of research though, so I could be overestimating the costs).

19 hours so far... Unfortunately I've sometimes gone three weeks to a month without a lesson due to weather, work, and other stuff. But I'm getting there, and loving every minute.

GS

[EN48]

What does if matter if you do the PPL in the minimum hours or not? Unless you are going to quit flying immediately after obtaining the rating, you will continue to spend money flying helicopters. There are many more ways to get into trouble flying helicopters compared to airplanes. So, sit back, relax, and forget about getting it done in minimum hours. The time you accumulate before the PPL will also count toward more advanced ratings, and ultimatey, the number of hours you needed to complete the PPL wont matter to anyone but you.:ok:

[KNIEVEL77]

20K.......ouch!!!!!:eek:

Maybe hiring IS the way to go then!

[Ready2Fly]

It probably is.

Besides the saying about the three F's (you will find it here) this sentence seems to carry some truth as well: "Well, if you have to think about costs, it is probably too expensive for you." ;)

[KNIEVEL77]

I was just wondering if anyone knew the drop out rate and for what reasons for students who commence their PPL(H) but fail to complete the course?

[Efirmovich]

From what I have been told by a friend who runs a busy school only 1 or 2 out of 10 carry on to complete the course and if you take into account the guys that turn up for a couple of trial lessons never to return and then tell their mates in the pub they are learning to fly Helicopters it is probably 1/100 !
They often drop out due to money, ability, fear and in the UK weather !

E.