FJ Aircrew Back Problems, Advice Please.

[Lord Harry Flashman]

Hello All,

This is a request for advice from anyone who has stopped (and hopefully gone back to) flying due to back pain, specifically a herniated disc.

I have a herniated disc and am currently being messed around/ fobbed off/ and generally frustrated by a mixture of NHS and military medical personnel. None of these people have been able to offer any advice from an aviation-medicine point of view. If anyone has been through "the process" I would be very grateful if you would get in touch so that I can get an idea of my options from an aircraft operators point of view or some useful contacts in this field.

Many Thanks

LHF:(

[Rossian]

LHF check your PMs

The Ancient Mariner

[effortless]

I was chopped for it, back in the seventies though so not relevant.

[Timelord]

Had this problem in the early 90s. RAF docs wanted to send me to Headly Court for intensive physio but they had a 3 month waiting list (probably longer now). Someone discovered that the SMO had a budget he could spend on private treatment so I was referred to a physiotherapist locally who got me back to flying in about 3 months of twice a week. Good luck.

[sled dog]

Try and find a good Oesteopath. It might seem like Black Magic, but it is working for me. Golf induced, by the way. But then, i am fortunately not in the UK........

[Tonkenna]

Couldn't agree more SD... mine is worth her wait in gold:ok:

Tonks :cool:

[spheroid]

I totally concur ref the Osteopath. My back suffered due to years of wearing a helmet, goggles and a weight on and sitting in a badly designed seat.....numerous visits to the sickbay with no result......finally in desperation I went to see an Osteopath.... success..... pain all gone and now I just see the Osteo once a month and all is well with Spheroids back. The only drawback is the £32 fee which I can't claw back

[It's Not Working]

Spheroid

Sorry to hear you can't claim it back and would ask, 'why not?' I closed a safe door on my bare foot many years ago and knackered a big toenail. Doctor couldn't help but very happy to pay private chiropodist's bills (or at least authorise them on JPA). Ten seconds with the chiropodist and I was out of pain for the first time in a long time. Subsequent visits, each about £30, failed to fix the underlying problem but no argument in settling the bills for me. When it gives me grief again back I'll be going. Your problem is clearly work induced (mine was more to do with stupidity at zero-dark-thirty) leaving me to think your doctor is doing you a miss-service.

[Op_Twenty]

Or try a Chiropractor, I know one who has treated many FJ ejectees and pilots of rotary and jets with difficult back problems. Check your PMs.

[mustpost]

Sorry to intrude on Miltary Aircrew forum, but after many motorsport rolls, crashes, resultant spinal injuries, etc - if you don't find a good osteo, then a good Chiropractor is great -fixed a civilian (me). They can vary tho' -check with friends. Totally agree (humbly) with Op_Twenty.
Respect everyone.
Very best of luck Sir.
Mike
I'm off now..

[Farfrompuken]

I'd agree with Op_Twenty;

Chiropractic is the way ahead. Check PM.

[Olly O'Leg]

Must add that I burst a disc about 9 months ago and was referred to a physio who did a stirling job with some exercises and I now have zero pain (used to start in my ass-cheek and end in my ankle..... :sad: ). There are some very good, and well-tested, exercises on the t'interweb which may help in the meantime.

[Hempy]

I herniated two discs (L4,L5) and needed surgery (microdiscectomy) to be able to walk properly again. That was 8 years ago, and since rehab (~6 months) I only need the occasional anti-inflamatory, otherwise its nearly as good as new. My only advice would be to stay away from chiro's, they might be ok if your spine is a bit out of alignment but they will only do you more damage if you have disc problems. A good physio/osteo is a better choice. Good luck !

[maxburner]

I had to stop fast jet flying a few years ago following a prolapsed disc. Initially a 'doctor' diagnosed the problem as a sporting injury and arranged physio. After the pain got worse I saw an orthopaedic surgeon, privately, and he did a proper investigation using X rays and an MRI. As a result he strongly advised me against physio, and also against surgery (risk too high) and further G or ejection seats. The point of this? Go see an orthopeadic surgeon, get some MRI pictues and assess wether a chiropractor, physio or osteopath will do you more harm than good. Well intentioned advice from this source may not be the best advice you can get.

[effortless]

See if you can find a sports injuries clinic. They are often more on the ball. Chiropractic is very mixed. They have a very woolly view. If you want to be told that this bit of the spine affects your goolies then well and good. Osteopathy was and is the most effective treatment for me. If you end up with surgery then see a neuro surgeon not an orthopod.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

My 2 cent's worth, having spent more than a year being told by a "military-specialist" orthopaedic surgeon that I was never going to fly again in the world of military aviation, is to get yourself a decent chiro/physio/whatever (with the emphasis on decent!), as having the right person on the treatment side can & will make a world of difference.

Halfway through my "year of pain" I switched physio/rehab folk and the difference was outstanding... result: 4 years later & I'm fit, healthy, and still in a career....

[Lord Harry Flashman]

Thank you all so much for your constructive posts.

I have had MRI which has confirmed herniated disc at L5/S1. I am now waiting (Lots of waiting already) for referral to civvie orthopaedic surgeon for advice on the options of surgery or "conservative" treatment.

Do you think it is worth contacting a service orthopaedic surgeon bearing in mind the "you will never fly again examples"? I am very concerned that surgery may lead to lost of ejection seat cat.

I am currently doing rehab exercises but they seem to have had little effect so far (3 weeks since commencement).

As I spend most of my time laying down i will start researching into osteopaths. Further advice much appreciated many thanks for your help so far.

[228 OCU]

I could not agree more with maxburner. I have had a spinal injury since my last flight, and it is of the utmost importance to get the correct diagnosis unless you want trouble in the future.


All the best.






If in doubt BANG OUT.

[hungryhorse]

Yyyyeeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! Hhhaaapppyyy Wwwiittthh Tthhaatt Ffeellaa!!!!!!

[Dan Winterland]

I had experience of this many years ago. I hurt my back putting on an immersion suit one day. The RAF doctors poked and prodded, tried physiotherapy and eventally suggested surgery. I was in pain for years. Then one day, the Chinese receptionist at a hotel in Washington saw me holding my shoulder and suggested I went to someone she knew. So I went and saw a traditional Chinese medicine bonesetter in Chinatown who stuck his thumbs under my shoulder blade, said "Aaagh" knowingly - then pressed hard. Something went pop, and I never suffered again. He charged me $20 for a five minute consultation.

I'm not suggesting that Chinese traditional medicine is the answer, but get away from the RAF system.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Pretty much exactly what Hempy said. Had a number of titanium pins placed in my back and flying again six months after the surgery. Chiropractor almost put me in a wheelchair. See a neurosurgeon rather than an orthopaedic bloke. Not FJ so no idea what effect it'll have on ejection cat but my back is pretty bullet proof at the moment except for the occasional anti inflammatory about three or four times a year.

[fayslag]

LHF, feel sorry for you mate. I came out of the mil a couple of years ago and still suffer with back pain. Although my back problem was recognized by the mil (visits to the Osteo paid for etc) and a visit to Headley Court which was brill, you will get little help when you leave. The Gazelle screwed my back up and even now I cant sit down for longer than 5 mins without the old lumbar cushion. There are a few AAC guys who have had the op etc and it has been successful for most. Make sure you get a decent Osteo/Chiro as there are folk out there that will charge a fortune and it may not make the slightest bit of difference. It is worth getting an xray prior to treatment so you/they can see the problem.

I have spent literally thousands on treatment and now I just do stretches and walk etc and have binned the visits. My back is just the same as if I'd been to the osteo every fortnight!

To reiterate, ensure you get a good diagnosis and ensure you get the best treatment whilst you are still serving! Good luck!;)

[k1rb5]

Harry

I've had problems with a herniated disc at L5/S1 for a while. Surgery was the only thing that worked for me.PM me if you want the details of the man who can help you.

K1rb5

[The Real Slim Shady]

LHF

Ejection seat flying is not the be all and end of all of aviation.

You can still fly the large civilian type airplanes and have your tea served by a sweet smelling young lady......or young man :ugh:

Big picture, springs to mind.

[NorthernSID]

I flew Tornado, actually burst a disc, had (minor) spinal surgery & was flying 6 weeks later!

Burst L4/5 & effectively had a hydraulic leak (disc fluid) into the electrical system (spinal column) which was messing up the nerve transmission

Physio was useless

The simple version was to remove the hydraulic fluid from the electrical system & all was fine

Technically it was a hemi-laminectomy (I think), where they made a semi-circular hole in the projection on one of the vertabrae to allow them to reach the fluid & suck it out

Because there was no alteration to the structure of the spine, there was no ejection seat issue & it was merely a case of post-op recovery

I was fortunate that the GP that refered me was an av-med specialist & refered me to a doc who he knew had done the exact same op 12 months previously - I was in Saudi Arabia at the time & he was a BAE doc

Consequently I have been fine & flew for some 2 years before retiring. My back is now better than it ever was - no twinging or anything

If you want to talk specifics further, please PM me

[Lord Harry Flashman]

Cheers for all the helpful posts and PMs. I don't feel quite so lost now. I am seeing a chiro at the moment although I havent noticed much improvement as yet (Only had 2 sessions). Still waiting for surgical opinion. There seems to be a lot of opinion that surgery should really only be a last resort. Progress is painfully and frustratingly slow, I didn't realise how long these back problems take to fix. Thanks all.

LHF

[c130jbloke]

LHF check your PMs :ok:

[Not now I'm busy]

Flash, I got a back injury riding a Mk 10 seat. Be esp careful about the amount of 'bed rest' you get - there be lower back complications...

Your SMO can refer you to a Regional Rehab Unit (RRU, unsurprisingly). They run absolutely excellent 2 week Courses to get you back (or in my case start) working out and running.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

May one suggest avoiding the chiro for herniated discs. The barstewards almost put me in a wheelchair and charged like a wounded buffalo for it. A slight tweak to a misaligned spine is what they're for, if you have pain and weakness caused by herniated discs, the only way out is surgery. I went various routes myself to avoid having surgery and things only got progressively worse. I ended up dragging a foot while walking in a classic case of "drop foot" and being unable to sit for more than five minutes without intense pain. Surgery sorted all that out almost instantaneously but I was warned that the longer you leave it the more damage occurs as a result of the nerves being compressed by the herniated disc. If it's required, best to get it done sooner rather than later.

Currently have six pins, two metal cages and two connecting rods bolting spine to pelvis, no pain and full use of all the bits previously affected.:ok:

[threeputt]

Had sciatica for 20+years and nothing seemed to help. In hope more than anything else my GP referred me to a surgical consultant at PMH Swindon who recommended a "Caudal Epidural". Basically this is an injection of anti- inflammatories, under general anesthetic, into the lower coccyx.

Not sore in any way and all done and dusted in 20 mins. Result ....no pain for over a year (fingers crossed that it lasts).

It worked for me :ok:

3P

[Lord Harry Flashman]

I have just been seen by a surgical consultant (who could not answer questions about getting back to flying as he was civvie!) He has recommended the epidural injections that you speak of. Does anyone else have experience of this type of treatment? Assuming it makes me pain free, is it as simple as getting A1G1Z1 restored and going flying or is there more to it?

LHF

[Sideshow Bob]

LHF,
I've had both lumber and cirviacal epidurals (due to having disc degeneration), normally when I've had these done I've had nerve root blocks done at the same time (blocks the pain). First time I had it done it lasted 3 months, second time was 3 days!!! So as you can see the results vary. Hope this helps.

[Mister-T]

Whilst I am not FJ I have am Rotary Pongo pilot whom had prolapsed disc op and returned to flying albeit I was grounded for a year. It was specified at the time that were I FJ (Ejection seat) I would not return to that role but more harrowing was the news that I might over time make the whole matter very messy and maybe unoperable if I continued to leave it go unsorted.

I would recommend the MRI that was suggested on an earlier post and make the best decision from there.

[SLLC]

LHF - sorry to hear about your back issues; looking at this thread it is clearly a common issue.

I swapped a serviceable back for a bug**ered one back in June thanks to the truly wonderful people at Martin Baker. I am now fighting to get my med cat back. Apart from the micro-fractures of the vertebrae I have had no specific diagnosis of the pain I am currently suffering and despite constant physio and about 2 hours a day in the gym for 3 months I am not yet recovered. I have therefore been referred back to a military spinal surgeon and will have another MRI and bone scan. It's all taking a while though.

Not had any experience with osteopaths and thankfully no talk of surgery yet. I have had all this through the SMO and on-station support and am happy with it thus far - I think I have been very lucky with the physio we have though. I'll keep you up to date on getting the bang-seat cat back if and when I have any luck with that. My point being really that it may take a while to get it sorted...as it happens our staish jumped out many years ago and still suffers - his advice was apposite therefore - take the time to get it sorted.

[Lord Harry Flashman]

I'm sorry to hear about your back SLLC; it makes my problem seem simple in comparison. I understand that it is a long term problem but at the same time I find that hard to accept (If you know what I mean?), because I am imaptiant!

I am weary of this epidural pain treatment, as I think pain lets you know what you can and can't do. I think that blocking it will probably lead to unknown injuries, revealed when the blocking wears off. I don't know for sure if that is the case and would appreciate advice from anyone who knows about it. Thanks all for the replys so far.

LHF

[941]

A ruptured disc at 5l meant that I could hardly walk. Chiropractor nearly crippled me for life. Get to Headly court - yes, demand it! They are fantastic and the advice will be realistic. Be prepared for a long haul. It took me 1 year and 3 weeks before I could fly again ( no ejection seats though) but I managed it with physio only and no invasive surgery. Results for surgery are very mixed, so be careful. The best surgeons are not in the military! Also, get walking and swimming. No running, jumping, cycling or lifting, just steady walking. In swimming, no crawl or anything like that, more like just floating around to get relief from the pain (floating in the bath is good as well)! In "late spines" at Headly court the PTI said - 200 situps, 200 stepups, 200 pressups and a 2 mile run, then we will break for a coffee at 1100 - and I could do it!!! An unbelieveable prospect for the cripple that had arrived there a year earlier. Now years later I get the odd tweak if I do something really stupid but I ski, play tennis, ramble for miles and dig the garden (very carefully). Courage, my Lord, there is a light at the end of the pain filled tunnel.

[hippocrates]

You may find the patient info section of this site useful.
Welcome to BASS.ac.uk (http://www.spinesurgeons.ac.uk/index.asp)
Knowledge is power.
The spinal surgeons at QMC Notingham have a vast experience of spinal problems relating to fast jet flying and ejection.

[Pontius Navigator]

get walking and swimming. No running, jumping, cycling or lifting, just steady walking. In swimming, no crawl or anything like that, more like just floating around to get relief from the pain (floating in the bath is good as well)!

Very true. Best buy we made was £500 for an above ground pool 16x10 and 3 feet deep. Plus £200 for a heater. Warm day just lazy like in a bath. Brilliant.

[nickyjsmith]

Try Graham Brown at the Royal Orthopaedic, he is an orthopedic physician so no knives. He is an ex RAF doc and knows his stuff.
He is a sports injury specialist, i had a back problem that went on for 5 years, saw 4 ortho surgeons and a neuro with no chance of a fix. The only help was a local oesteo but it usally only helped or a few weeks.
This doc diagnosed me correctly and offered a treatment with 90% chance of 100% fix. My problem was ligament damage, he used prolotherapy and after about 9 months it was pretty much back to normal.
Basically its a way of tightening and strenghtening ligament, worth a look anyway.
All the best gents.

Nick.

[icarus sun]

Get mri scan first to see the problem ,then best doctor you can afford.

[Reader not a writer]

Joined RAF 1983 left 2001 all on FJs (minus training, but all on bang seats)
Had a few back problems due to sport injuries before joining.

Back problems increased in intensity (pain) and frequency yearly.

Diagnosed with a "curveture of the spine problem" in 1987 and fitted with a taylored fibre-glass "back-brace" (considered today as bloody stupid)

Spent on average 3/4 days per year where I could'nt walk without the aid of sticks. Suffered in ignorince until I found someone through friends, who worked magic for about 12 years without the RAF being involved.

Left the RAF and spent even more time sitting down, either flying or driving.

Situation progressively over the next 3 years became terrible and was averaging 2.5 months/year off flying.

Eventually went private to a NUEROSURGION on the 11 Aug ----, got an MRI scan 19 Aug ----, results 21 Aug.

Diagnosis L4, L5 prolapsed discs. The MRI scan showed major potential damage to the nerves running off the spinal chord towards the legs. The picture looked like 2 burgers (bulging out pressing on the nerves) from a bagel (vertabre) that was half the size needed to cater for the sandwhich.

Options:

1. Continue to suffer and use anti-inflam when things bad, but never get better.

2. Have microdisectomy to solve the problem, but possibly (2% chance) of paralysis.

3.OR 98% chance of a life without pain and full mobility.

I took option 3. and was operated on 26 Aug . Went back to flying 17 Oct and have lived a life without the constant pain that I had endured for many years.

Get the odd twinge but now feel 10 years younger, 3 inches taller and walk miles with no pain.

Surgery was 3 years ago, cost me 4000 pounds and I consider it the best money I've ever spent

Just my experience for those who might be interested.

PM me if you want to talk.