Pilot Letter about UAL MGMT (get ready for a long read...), UAL 895..7/26/08

[ryu2]

Repost from another forum; disclaimer: I'm not the original author.



Captain *********
ORDFO *****

July 30, 2008

Captain Steve Wallach, Master Chairman, UAL MEC
Captain Keith Rimer, System Chief Pilot, United Airlines

Dear Captain ***** and Captain *****,

I am writing to you to share my concerns about a recent diversion experience and the related safety, operational, and people issues. Following my letter is a copy of a newspaper Op/Ed that I was handed when I got off of my flight from Saigon today. It was written by a respected Hong Kong businessman/publisher/bookseller who was onboard flight 895.

On July 26, 2008 I was in command of United flight 895 from Chicago to Hong Kong. We elected to abandon our approach in Hong Kong on July 27th, due to reported microburst activity on the field, two aircraft performing missed approaches, a Swiss Air jet ahead of us in a holding pattern, and three or four other aircraft in front of us waiting for an approach, as well as the fact that there were two or three more thunderstorm cells lined up immediately behind the first cell over the airport and rapidly approaching. As we turned toward Macao it became evident that a line of storms was rapidly approaching that airport. On downwind a level four or five storm was just outside the final approach fix and the Chinese controllers attempted to fly us into that storm. I actually had to raise my voice and tone with the controller to get him to turn us toward the airport. While we were still heading outbound on downwind, but in rapidly deteriorating visual conditions, and without any guidance in terms of a radar vector, the controller cleared us for the approach, leaving us to guide ourselves to the localizer – in short, it was a difficult, stressful, and “on your own” kind of situation. Despite strong turbulence and zero visibility in dark, heavy rain off to the left and in front of us, we could see the airport to the right and executed an immediate right turn onto the localizer keeping the airport in sight. We touched down with about 18,800 lbs of fuel and taxied to a hard stand.

Over the next several hours the Flight Operations Duty Managers, *******, and *******, as well as our Dispatchers: *******, *******, and*******, did an outstanding and supportive job, and I take no issue with any of their actions. It is clear to me that virtually the entire Flight Operations Management team at United Airlines today is the best I’ve seen in nearly twenty-four years. I wish I could I say the same for other departments.

You should understand that the flight from Chicago to Hong Kong was scheduled to be 15:25 block to block, and that we were scheduled to arrive Hong Kong at 16:45, or 03:45 Central Time. Due to turbulence the flying copilot and I were able to get very little sleep on our breaks. I believe that I napped for almost three hours and was groggy when I woke up. Thus we were operating on the back side of the clock, fatigued (as much as one normally would be on these flights) and were thrust into a stressful, difficult, and potentially dangerous situation. We knew that we didn’t have all that much time before our duty day became a problem but were hopeful to turn the aircraft quickly.

We parked at a hard stand away from the terminal and coordinated with dispatch and the local operations people (non-United) to fuel the aircraft for our return to Hong Kong. Within just a few minutes the storm that was approaching hit the airport and with heavy rain and lightning the airport and ramp were shut down. I ensured that the passengers and crew were fully advised and constantly informed of any and all information as we received it. We were told that the Macau ramp would be closed for at least an hour to an hour and a half due to the weather and lighting. In fact, the ramp ended up being closed for several hours.

After about an hour on the ground, tired, adrenalin pumped and dumped, and virtually up all night, we were told by our dispatcher that Operations Control (OPB) said that we would be out of duty time in about thirty minutes, at ten minutes after the next hour. It was obvious that we would not be able to turn the aircraft as we didn’t even have fuel and the ramp was still shut down.

At ten minutes after the next hour (still without fuel) I asked dispatch for a phone patch (through SATCOM) to Crew Scheduling (CM). You should know that the SATCOM was extremely unreliable and intermittent during the entire ordeal. We were continuously disconnected and had to call back numerous times each time we attempted contact, which added to the difficulties and frustations. I believe that I spoke with ***** at OPBCM, but I may have the name or scheduler wrong. I stated that we were told that we were out of duty time, or about to be out of duty time to which he replied, “No you’re not.” I explained what we were told. He repeated that we weren’t out of duty. I asked him when we’d be out of duty. He replied, “In three minutes.” The first officers and I looked at each other in astonishment. It was as if the crew scheduler was playing a game. For all intent and purpose when a 747 is sitting on the ground in Macau, with the airport shut down, no fuel, and no way to go anywhere for at least an hour, three minutes is a formality, a semantic, and ******* could have stated at the outset that we would be illegal in just a few minutes. For all practical purposes we were out of duty time and not in the mood to play games. But what we got from Antoinne was reminiscent of a discussion with an adolescent about bed a bed time. A cockpit crew that has been flying all night, is de-stressing from a hairy arrival and approach at an unfamiliar airport on the other side of the world with 300 passengers onboard, and who are working their butts off to take care of said passengers, do not need this kind of nonsense from a crew scheduler.

The conversation turned to the question of the crew waiving duty time to get the airplane to Hong Kong. Mr. Tilton has explained that employee morale is not his problem and has violated his promise of “shared sacrifice, shared reward,” thus leaving most pilots I know to feel demoralized, disconnected from the company, and feeling like there is little hope that United will survive in the long run or that the company cares about us at all. So once the operation falls outside of the contract most of us feel that it is not unreasonable to be compensated at a reasonable level commensurate with our responsibilities, roles, and obligations. ******* said that United would offer us each five hours of pay to waive our contract and fly the airplane to Hong Kong. I am personally not motivated by money. In my case my mother is suffering from lung cancer and my time off to care for her, to help her with various issues and needs, or just to be with her as much as I can is more important to me than five hours of pay. I explained to the crew that I would rather have my next trip dropped than to take money. The copilots agreed and we all decided that we would waive the contract for a paid trip drop. It seemed a no brainer to us because a reserve would be paid to sit around anyway whether they fly or not – so this was no cash out of the companies coffers.

I explained to ******** that as long as we were not too fatigued to fly by the time we got fuel that we would waive duty time if the crew desk would drop our next IDs and pay protect us. ******** said no, that the crew desk doesn’t make deals with pilots, and that they were offering five hours, take it or leave it. I explained that I didn’t understand how this was a smart decision on the company’s part as five hours of pay is cold, hard cash, and that a reserve flying our trip is going to get paid whether he flies or not, and that we would get paid if we flew our trips and so it would be cost neutral to the company. ******** said no. It seemed as if there was some kind of contest going on, a contest of wills, that rather than make a good and smart business decision, the crew desk was determined to stare us down seemingly believing that there was no way that we would refuse their deal. We were told numerous times that there were no hotel rooms in Macau available, and that the last ferry out of town was either booked or not operating – this information kept changing. But the overriding theme seemed to be, you guys have no choice but to accept our deal. I then asked the FODM, ********** for assistance. He said that it was out of his control but that he would bring it to the OPB manager. The OPB manager denied the request.

We were now out of duty time and committed to the airplane since we were not at a gate and there was no way off the airplane while the airport and ramp were shut down.

Over the next several hours we were informed by OPB (through dispatch) that:
· There was not a single hotel available on the island of Macau.
· There were no flights available from Macau to Hong Kong.
· All of the Ferry boats were booked and unavailable.

When requests for information about helicopter service (which is scheduled and regular) were requested the idea was dismissed by OPB and CM.

It was clear, based on information that we learned later about what our options really were, that United Operations wanted us to feel that we had no alternative but to fly the airplane out of Macau. We were rapidly approaching the point of no return in terms of fatigue.

We continued to share all of the information with our passengers that the company provided, including that they could not get off the airplane because it was no longer under Portuguese control, and was now under Chinese control. I wanted them to understand the situation. We did our best to keep them informed, comfortable, and safe. The flight attendants did a professional and excellent job. Despite this the passengers were getting frustrated, angry, belligerent, and furious with United Airlines. When I would bring this to the attention of OPB it seemed as if they didn’t care. It seemed as if they were happy to let us stew on the airplane with the passengers because we refused to waive the contract. We were being punished. Once again, after an hour, I requested (almost begged) OPB to accept our offer and suggestion to drop our trips and let us get the airplane and passengers to Hong Kong. The entire ordeal could have been over in another thirty minutes as the fueler was enroute. The response was an abrupt, “No!”

Meanwhile the fueler showed up and told us that he had no idea how to fuel a 747. First Officer****not only went out to supervise but actually did the fueling. Without the actions and knowledge of First Officer **** the aircraft would not have been fueled. I was handed a fuel slip and put it on the forward lower EICAS display along with other paper work for the next crew. The next day, in Hong Kong, we were asked if we had the fuel slip. I told operations that we left it on the airplane.

I advised OPB (through Dispatch) that the passengers were getting hostile and angry, and that there were belligerent individuals coming to the cockpit. Despite the fact that we kept the passengers informed, and that many of them were thanking us for the job we were doing, they were furious with United because the information I was giving them (from OPB) about hotels, and ferries was contrary to information that they were receiving from their cell phones and computers. I apologized but told them that I was merely passing along what I was being told. It was getting so bad that I told OPB and CM that I wanted to get off the airplane. We were ordered to remain on the airplane until further notice, this came from the OPB and CM managers. We were told that the company was now “mounting a rescue operation,” or a “recovery operation”, I don’t recall the exact terminology, and that they were going to bring pilots in from Hong Kong via ferry boat. I asked how long this would take. It was now approximately 7:00 PM in Macau (6:00 AM CT). The crew had been on duty for nearly twenty hours. They told us that they were anticipating a 22:45 (L) departure (10:45 AM CT) and that we would have to remain with the aircraft until then. This would have put us on duty and on the airplane for five minutes short of 24 hours.

Meanwhile a passenger came to the cockpit and advised us that he knew that there were rooms in Macau at the Venetian Hotel. We called CM again and asked for rooms. They told us that there were no rooms and that even if there were that they don’t book rooms and that we would have to work through HKG operations, despite the fact that we had no means to contact HKG operations.

CM continued to stare us down as if to see who would blink first, as if they thought that at some point we would give in and just fly the plane to HKG. What they didn’t realize was that at this point we were well beyond being able to fly safely due to fatigue.

I instructed First Officer ***** to borrow a cell phone from local operations and reserve four rooms for us at the Venetian. I called the FODM who authorized me to book the rooms and to be reimbursed. The hotel had only five rooms available which were all suites. I booked the rooms with my personal credit card.

We received information that the flight attendants were out of duty time and that they needed to call the Flight Attendant Crew Desk (OPBSK) and speak with *****. The flight attendants had been doing an outstanding job of representing United and taking care of our customers, and were making the most out of an intolerable situation. I am convinced that if it weren’t for their actions we would have had a mutiny on board. Numerous passengers came up to me and thanked me for the way that the crew was treating them despite the information (or lack of it) and support that we were getting from Headquarters.

The purser came to the cockpit and we attempted communications with OPBSK’s *****. At first ***** was very pleasant. And for the most part the tone of her voice remained that way through most dealings. She told the purser that they were out of duty time and requested that they waive their contract to fly back to HKG with the new pilots. The purser asked what was being offered as incentive to do this. ***** said that the company would offer 5 for 1, or 1 for 5 (I don’t recall now). The purser advised that she would talk to the crew. After discussion the crew decided that they wanted the time and also wanted to deadhead home from HKG on their scheduled flight as they were tired from the diversion ordeal. ***** told them that they would have to work their flight home and that it was either the credit time or nothing. The purser advised that the crew would thus not waive the contract and would like to be put up in Macau at a hotel for legal rest. ** ***** advised them that there were no hotels in Macau available and that they would have to deadhead to HKG. The purser advised that they were out of duty time and that they would waive their duty time to deadhead to HKG in exchange for the offered credit time. ***** now rescinded her offer of credit time in exchange for duty waiver because the flight attendants weren’t going to work. She said, “You can’t have the 5 for 1 since you’re not flying, and since there are no hotel rooms in Macau if you get off the airplane you’ll have no where to go, and so I’ll just show you deadheading to HKG to work your trip home.”

I sat in my seat shaking my head. ***** was certain that she had the flight attendants in a box. She resorted to vicious power playing to intimidate them into flying and accepting “her deal” or they would be forced to deadhead and defacto waive duty time by default because United would not provide for, or even attempt to provide for their needs in terms of a layover in Macau.

The purser told ***** that this was not acceptable and that the crew needed to layover in Macau. ******* said, “There are no rooms so we’re not offering you any deals.” The message was loud and clear; we’ve got you by the short hairs. Once again the company was showing no compassion, no respect, and no empathy or understanding to a crew that was going through a seriously fatiguing and physically demanding situation after twenty hours on duty. The passengers were beating up on them on one side and the company (through *******) was bashing them on the other side. At this very moment I felt more disconnected, more mistrustful, more embarrassed, and more disgusted about working for United Airlines than I have ever in my nearly twenty-four year career—because what was being demonstrated wasn’t a single individual being cruel, or lying, or harassing – it was virtually the whole operations department other than the Dispatchers and FODMs.

At this time First Officer ***** handed me a slip of paper that read that there were fifteen rooms at the airport hotel, The China Hotel, which he learned from a passenger. I advised the Purser who advised **. *****. ***** tone did change now. It went up a few notches in pitch. She said that the information was wrong and that there were no hotels. I took the microphone and advised her that she was wrong, that we had confirmed and reserved the rooms, and that the flight attendants needed vouchers. She said that there would be no vouchers and that the flight attendants would have to pay for the rooms and expense them. I told her that I would pay for the rooms on my credit card and that United Airlines would reimburse me.

I asked the Dispatcher to get the OPB manager on the line. When he answered I expressed my disgust with the entire manner in which we were all being treated, in the intimidation, and harassment, and that for the life of me I couldn’t understand how he could make a decision to strand three hundred people at Macau, destroy so much good will, discount the excellent work we did in landing there safely, all because he wouldn’t allow us to drop our trips which would have cost the company nothing. When one considers the cost/value equation for this disastrous fiasco, the good will lost to passengers and employees, the bad feelings created, etc. … well, I sure hope that someone will be accountable for the carnage.

After the aircraft was towed to a gate (towed because I was so fatigued after 23 hours of duty, as well as dealing with WHQ, that I felt it unwise to start engines and taxi the airplane under its own power), the passengers were let off, and we received clearance from the FODM to leave and go to our hotels before the next crew arrived.

At the hotel we requested that our IDs be updated before we went to bed so that we would know what was going to happen the next day and so that we could finally get some rest. This was not to be. I was forced to wake up early (after only five hours of sleep) and check my computer to see if an update was done because I had no idea what kind of rest requirements we needed and I could barely tell someone my age much less figure out a duty day and rest time. In checking the computer it had not been accomplished. I called OPBCM and requested this be done. It took about another four phone calls and five or six hours for ***** to accomplish this. Meanwhile he told us that we’d have to take a ferry boat from Macau to Hong Kong at 17:30 leaving the hotel at 16:30. I told him that until the ID was updated that I would not go anywhere because I didn’t know if I’d had legal rest. In conversations with me he was rude and continuously cut me off every time I tried to explain anything. It got to the point that I had to have First Officer ***** speak to ***** because I grew tired of his nasty attitude. Eventually, after ***** updated our IDs with the proper times, we learned that we didn’t have enough rest and couldn’t leave until 19:45. I had been dealing with this mess since about 10:00 AM until approximately 15:00 – so much for a restful layover.

After discussions with First Officer ***** I was concerned that we were being forced to ride on a public ferry boat that was neither inspected by ALPA, approved by ALPA, or had any type of security or screening for passengers. I spoke with **** (HKCS Manager), who apparently arranged the ferry boat ride, and she assured me in no uncertain terms that the boat was not for the public but rather for guests of the Venetian Hotel. I asked her specifically, “Are you saying that nobody can just buy a ticket on the ferry?” She said, “Yes.” I queried the hotel manager who told me that what ***** told me was not true. I called the FODM with my concerns and reservations. I told him that I was uncomfortable riding on a ferry in any case, and very concerned that United Airlines was forcing me to ride on public transportation with no security measures onboard. I told him that there were other options including a helicopter. The company has used this option many times in the past. I also told him, because I didn’t want to disrupt the operation anymore than it had been, that if he ordered me to go that I would, but that I wanted this reflected in my CALREC or ID. He said that he would do that and that we were ordered to go on the ferry.

It is clear to me that the company was using intimidation and the threat of having no where to stay to push the crew into flying the airplane. The outright hostility, punishment, and complete lack of cooperation and respect that was directed toward my entire crew, simply because we chose to respect our contract, a contract that the CEO has clearly informed us is ours and that we must live by for the foreseeable future, is intolerable. All of it could have been easily avoided if the OPB Manager had simply made a wise and cost effective business decision.

I have learned (from the article below) that the passengers finally made it back to Hong Kong at 2:30 AM, about 10 hours late.

Respectfully,
/s/
Captain *******

[sevenstrokeroll]

The deal for a dropped trip is part of the gotcha.

Either you are too tired to fly or it is illegal to fly...but I feel for the pilots.

At one time, United would have done the right thing...take care of pax and crew...now its money and decisions are made by people in a nice comfortable office building thousands of miles from trouble.

Stories like this make me glad I didn't choose international flying. go to new york LGA, divert and you get stuck in EWR...at least EWR is part of the USA and you can take a cab.

YIKES

[Dream Buster]

ryu2,

The only thing to do is walk away. No pilot, no fly. That's what the passengers expect you to do. It works every time. Don't let the muppets get you down!

DB :ok:

[rvv500]

I was a passenger in that flight and can vouch that whatever the Captain said was true. The Captain was Garry Kravits. It was a complete mess by UAL and we reached Hong Kong at 2.30 AM on 28th and I reached home at 4 AM after being 33 hours on the road as I connected to UA - 895 after coming into ORD on a domestic leg.

It was ridiculous, the way in which the whole incident was handled.

[topjetboy]

Without steps I suppose it would have been out the DV window into a dark, wet hotel-less night.
I worries me to see how bad it can get.

[Xeque]

This forum has publicised the many failings of 1-2-Go/Orient Thai and it's CEO Udom Tantiprasongchai.
It seems to me that the actions taken by United Airlines management are not dissimilar.
Udom is accused of pushing crews into accepting 'hours over the top'. What's the difference with what UAL attempted to do with their crew stranded at Macao?

[Iver]

This is shameful actions from UAL management. The pilots did a great job under stressful conditions. I will avoid flying UAL in future if management want to cut corners.

[Check Airman]

Thanks ryu2. Where was it originally posted? I'd love to see what pax had to say.


I applaud that entire crew for how they treated the situation. I hope UAL learns a lesson after putting pax and dedicated crew members through the ordeal.

[Lurking123]

It does highlight how much has an aircraft commander's decision making responsibility been undermined, whilst at the same time he is faced with unnecessary grief from a department that is established to support the operation. Anyone out there who still remembers Tenerife?

The possibility that van Zanten was in a hurry to commence the delayed flight due to Dutch regulations on exceeding crew duty hours.

Easy for me to say sat in my comfortable armchair, but I would have walked after being treated like that.

[Finn47]

Link to the opinion piece by the passenger here:

The Standard - Hong Kong's First FREE English Newspaper (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=5&art_id=69304&sid=19954957&con_type=3&d_str=20080730&fc=8)

Incidentally, I first came across this letter to UAL mgmt while reading the blog of Joe Sharkey (the reporter travelling on the infamous Embraer Legacy in Brazil) and subsequently at Airliners.net. Only, both of those stories seem to have disappeared into thin air now. Wonder why?

[Oftenfly]

In reply to Finn47, I suspect the reason the posts on Sharkey's blog and Airliners.net were withdrawn, or removed, is that they printed the letter without redaction. A little judicious googling will probably locate both those posts in Google's cache; you'll find it fairly simple to locate Sharkey's post there. Oftenfly

[Airbubba]

The deal for a dropped trip is part of the gotcha.

Either you are too tired to fly or it is illegal to fly...but I feel for the pilots.



...that for the life of me I couldn’t understand how he could make a decision to strand three hundred people at Macau, destroy so much good will, discount the excellent work we did in landing there safely, all because he wouldn’t allow us to drop our trips ...

The captain is whining that the company wouldn't buy his demand for a custom non-contractual trip drop, that kinda weakens the fatigue and safety argument in my mind. And the ferry boats weren't inspected by ALPA? A thousand violins...

This is legacy union mentality on a very legacy failing airline. We'll see how much longer it lasts.

I've flown on UA 895 in business class several times, the service is not red hot by international standards. The cabin crews are, shall we say, quite senior and have attitudes.

The Captain was Garry Kravits.

Hmmm, I know that name from somewhere...

[midnight cruiser]

Hmm - Willing and able, ...

but not without a "special deal"

:rolleyes:

[fleigle]

I know quite a few UAL crew, they continue to be royally shafted, I don't blame then one bit for being angry and frustrated.

[pacplyer]

UAL may not survive since they are currently in the Pan Am, TWA model in a world of oil company monopolies and two-fisted middle management.

Nobody on that airplane's going to come back to UAL unless they have to. I know I wouldn't. Why should a pax stand for being lied to about hotel room availability etc, and then made a prisoner in a metal tube while stegosauruses with an attitude refuse to serve them water and bitch at them like they're going to go to jail if they try to use the head? For nearly 24 hours? What if somebody has a medical condition? Arteriolar Thrombosis is no laughing matter. Deadly leg blood clots can kill you three days later.

While the pilots are perfect gentlemen imho and try to consider everybody's perspective (safety, pax, FA, workrules), I've witnessed this UAL middle management mexican standoff a few times and it reminded me of a bunch of lawyers all breaking out their ringed binders trying to decipher complex ambiguous contractual language....

Maybe UAL needs to go to the SWA model and sack about eight layers of middle management. Then let the people in the field make the common sense decisions, not some power-hungry turd in a sky-scrapper in Chicago...

Meanwhile give me Cathay, Singapore, EVA anyday.....

[ryu2]

I first saw the posting on Flyertalk. They seem to have taken it down as well, but the Google cached version is here:

Pilot Letter about UAL MGMT (get ready for a long read...), UAL 895..7/26/08 - FlyerTalk Forums (http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:w68RHIcjuogJ:www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D851184+site:www.flyertalk.com+ferry+boa t+that+was+neither+inspected+by+ALPA&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

Let's hope PPRuNe has more fortitude to stand up and keep this post alive.

[rigpiggy]

Pretty simple, your illegal don't fly the airplane, don't taxi it. Find a hotel, and sleep, add the necessary time to the rest until your legal, then report for duty. If you had any issue who do you think is going to get hung out?

[742]

I have to say that there is a lot of blame to go around here.

First, UAL management. A diversion from HKG to MFM is hardly an off the wall scenario. If you are going to carry 300+ passengers your first priority should be to take care of 300+ passengers. MBA degrees notwithstanding.

The Captain lost the high ground when he made moving the airplane part of a deal. You are legal or you are not. You are safe or you are not. Anything else comes the morning after with a call to your Chief Pilot.

But I do feel for the crew and passengers. Before I retire I would again like to ride on an international flight on an American airline where the management actually gives a d*** about running the airline.

[Muizenberg]

I flew for UAL as a flight attendant based in London in the early to mid 90's. This is a typical reaction from the morons in Chicago. Completely out of touch with the operations side, esp. Internationally. Blatant disregard for Pilot/FA agreements. The customers were viewed as a problem, and only feedback from high yielding 100K plus customers was vaguely listened to (according to the useless masses at EXO). Friends who are still there say things have become 100's worse since chapter 11...

Unfortunatetly UAL have turned once loyal dedicated employees into extremely demoralised workers...wonder how long they will last...Someone give Tilton and his mob of incompetents their marching orders.

[FrequentSLF]

SLF Here.

The issue IMHO is that 300+ PAX were stranded in the aircraft because the Captain and the UAL were unable to reach a deal.
UAL management actions are :mad:
I find the Captain actions questionable, he did use 300+ as bargain bin to get what he wanted, he did show why PAX are called SLFs. At the end he got his hotel room, while the PAX stayed on the a/c...:ugh:
I am ready for the bashing, however IMHO he is as guilty as UAL management.

AN

[Brian Abraham]

Peter Gordon got it right in his opinion piece I think. My bolding for those that think the crew deserve to get a hit as well. Management need to get out of the office and see what goes on at the coal face. While I go along with rigpiggy's take (Pretty simple, your illegal don't fly the airplane, don't taxi it. Find a hotel, and sleep, add the necessary time to the rest until your legal, then report for duty. If you had any issue who do you think is going to get hung out?), as sevenstrokeroll said "I feel for the pilots."

My final reflection on the day is that frontline staff, those that actually deal with customers, are one of a company's most important assets. In this case, the impeccable crews on the plane seem to have been let down by less-than-entirely-adroit departments elsewhere.

And the next time - in an election campaign or a discussion of economic woes or a minimum wage - that someone complains about "the workforce," I'll remember that this is just another term for "people" and that it's people that ultimately make all the difference in the world.

[TeachMe]

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I read it the weather was the ultimate decider. Enven if the crew had accepted the offered deal, nothing would have changed because the the crew were out of time before the plane could fly.

The complaint to me seems more about the games being played and lies by the people on the other end of the phone. As I read it, these games and lies made the pilots more tired and made the situation worse.

[HM79]

Managment 101:

Passengers come and go; employees stay forever. If you treat your employees well then your passengers will be well treated.

A concept almost totally ignored by the airline industry.

[FrequentSLF]

Managment 101:

Passengers come and go; employees stay forever. If you treat your employees well then your passengers will be well treated.

A concept almost totally ignored by the airline industry.

A professional will perform his/her duties at his/her best no matter how is treated. Saying that, as professional, you are treating a paying passenger badly because you are not happy with your management is very deplicable.
Furthemore when all PAX are gone, what are you going to do?

AN

[jetopa]

This is an interesting thread and I enjoyed following it so far...

But: why is a Captain (or the rest of his crew) of a transport category aircraft unable to calculate the maximum allowable flight-duty and ensueing rest-time by himself? :confused: Even if the flight has been crossing several time zones.

That's the kind of stuff I was asked to do for both my European and FAA ATP written test - many years ago.:bored:

I don't understand. Am I missing something here...?

[Check Airman]

But: why is a Captain (or the rest of his crew) of a transport category aircraft unable to calculate the maximum allowable flight-duty and ensueing rest-time by himself? :confused: Even if the flight has been crossing several time zones.

The crew was well able to calculate their duty time. The clown at the other end of the line was just playing the fool when he said the crew wasn't out of time. As the text states, if you've only got 3 minutes of duty time left, for all intentions and purposes, your duty period has expired.

[christep]

While I have lots of sympathy for the crew being buggered about by people back in the us, what on earth is this all about?

After discussions with First Officer ***** I was concerned that we were being forced to ride on a public ferry boat that was neither inspected by ALPA, approved by ALPA, or had any type of security or screening for passengers. {and so on}
Will United crews only travel on private vessels or vehicles with an armed escort or something? What on earth is wrong with taking the Macau to HK ferry?
It's not like you're in the depths of Africa or something - these are first world territories.

[Roadtrip]

Been there, done that with a scumbag 747 freight outfit. When things even start to get stupid, as the captain you have to TELL operations what's going to happen. No negotiation. No bargaining. No holding out for a better deal.

Park it at the gate and say "My crew will be at the hotel, and we're not answering the phone until 12 hours after we check in. Good-bye."

I got tired just reading this debacle. I dare say that an accident investigation board would have come to the conclusion that the crew was too tired to continue from the outset.

It's sad to see that United, and other once-great carriers have such incompetent management.

[Wizofoz]

But: why is a Captain (or the rest of his crew) of a transport category aircraft unable to calculate the maximum allowable flight-duty and ensueing rest-time by himself? Even if the flight has been crossing several time zones

Because under FAA regs, there AREN'T any limits on duty time for an augmented crew. What is being discussed is a CONTRACTUAL limit which can be waived by mutual agreement.

Th FAA FTL regs are decades behind the rest of the world.

[A-3TWENTY]

Frequent SLF,

Don`t be stupid...

If the Capt`s decides to go after a 20 Hr journey and something happens , for sure you would be questioning why the Capt decided to go.

Sorry Sir , This is one of the most stupid posts I have ever seen in this forum...

Shame on you:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Capot]

Reading between the lines of Capt Kravitts' letter, even before getting to the comments about the ferry, I have the impression that the people he was dealing with in UAL and he deserve each other.

His intention in publishing it is clearly to discredit UAL, and he has achieved that in spades, if what he describes is true as I am sure it is.

It's a pity that he discredits himself as well, after doing what was obviously a fantastic and professional job of getting the aircraft down safely in the first place.

As someone has pointed out, he cannot very well play the fatigue and safety card when he was quite prepared to extend his own and the rest of his crew's duty so long as the price was right.

But if I were running UAL, I would sack those who fought him over that issue so stupidly.

And yes, any one of the hundreds of pilots I have worked with not only can work out the FTL aspects of situations such as this, but would insist on doing so and making his/her own decisions accordingly.

[DingerX]

What evidence do we have that it is he who leaked this letter to the public?

The only time to negotiate from the flight deck is when a Hostage Rescue Team is enroute.

[FrequentSLF]

Frequent SLF,

Don`t be stupid...

If the Capt`s decides to go after a 20 Hr journey and something happens , for sure you would be questioning why the Capt decided to go.

Sorry Sir , This is one of the most stupid posts I have ever seen in this forum...

Shame on you:yuk::yuk::yuk:

Would you please point out in where I posted what you are calling stupid?

Thanks

[Ancient Mariner]

From the letter:
After discussions with First Officer ***** I was concerned that we were being forced to ride on a public ferry boat that was neither inspected by ALPA, approved by ALPA, or had any type of security or screening for passengers. I spoke with **** (HKCS Manager), who apparently arranged the ferry boat ride, and she assured me in no uncertain terms that the boat was not for the public but rather for guests of the Venetian Hotel. I asked her specifically, “Are you saying that nobody can just buy a ticket on the ferry?” She said, “Yes.” I queried the hotel manager who told me that what ***** told me was not true. I called the FODM with my concerns and reservations. I told him that I was uncomfortable riding on a ferry in any case, and very concerned that United Airlines was forcing me to ride on public transportation with no security measures onboard. I told him that there were other options including a helicopter. The company has used this option many times in the past. I also told him, because I didn’t want to disrupt the operation anymore than it had been, that if he ordered me to go that I would, but that I wanted this reflected in my CALREC or ID. He said that he would do that and that we were ordered to go on the ferry.


Wimp. I can't believe that I actually trust these people with my life.
I'll have my union qualifying arlines next.
Per

[J.O.]

Those of you who are so critical of his security concerns regarding the ferry might want to remember that UAL's view on employee security was changed forever thanks to 9/11. While I may think it's a bit of an overreaction, given that many of their colleagues in the flight deck and cabin gave their lives that day, I am willing to give them a bit of a break. A history like 9/11 is pretty hard to shake when it affects you personally.

Frequent SLF:

You accused the captain of treating his passengers badly. There's much evidence, including a newspaper editorial, to indicate that he (and his crew) in fact were the only UAL employees who treated the passengers well under very difficult circumstances. The fact that you can't see that is unfortunate.

[etrang]

He wasn't prepared to travel by ferry, but was quite happy to travel by a helicopter, in fact he asked twice, that had also not been inspected and approved by ALPA.

[FrequentSLF]

O. J.

As Capot rightly pointed out he was ready to extend his duty time as long as the price was right. In matter of fact I fully agree with the whole of Capot post.
I am not questioning if he shuld or not extend his duty time, I do not agree on how the whole issue has been dealt with. I see that the only loosers were the PAX. And both UAL and Captain could have handled the situation better.
I do wonder if the PAX and the journo would have the same opinion on how they were treated after reading the letter.
AN

[jetopa]

@ Wizofoz: thanks for the clarification!

I am wondering, why the driver of a public transport vehicle is even considering to head on to a more 'convenient' destination after having been on the road for such a long time.

Tired people make bad decisions and I wouldn't like to be a passenger on such an airplane, boat, bus or whatever. There must be a published ultimate flight-duty limit somewhere, after which you call it a day. Also for US-carriers.

[flash8]

I hungrily started searching for 411A's (predictable) take on the situation - but he's nowhere to be seen? No doubt we will hear in due course :)

[rogerg]

I had a lot of sympathy with the captain until I saw the bit about the ferry. We call them "jobsworths" Seems like the whole airline deserves each other.

[J.O.]

Frequent SLF:

Point taken, and I agree that being willing to extend if the price was right does on its face seem a bit "prostitute-like". One would think that it's either okay to extend or it's not, the price be damned. But it's a whole lot easier to second guess his actions from the comfort of our keyboards. Having been there a time or two in my career, such situations are dynamic and one manages as best they can. I'd like to think that someone freshly awake and alert would not have been willing to do it "for a price", but I could be wrong. It's also fair to say that negotiating a schedule change or an overtime payment is hardly new in the industry, and in fact is commonplace at many airlines, including UAL. I'm pretty sure that he'd had similar negotiations with crew scheduling in the past, probably with success in getting what he wanted. So when they were resisitant to his idea, it no doubt struck an already tired nerve. Hence the long scathing letter to his union.

All that said, I still believe he cared for his pax better than his company did. Many folks would have walked off with little more than a goodbye announcement.

As for the opinion of the journo, I took the time to forward a copy of the captain's letter to him. I don't know if I'll get a response, but I'm monitoring the web site to see if he writes a follow-up.

J.O.

[John Holmes junior]

Guangzhou is just 50nm north of Hong Kong. It just takes an hour by bus, plus train services every 15 minutes to Hong Kong. It has 2 runways at least 11,000 feet each in length. UAL should use this as a better alternative since they know the Flightdeck/cabin crew will be exceeding duty time if ever they misapproach in Hong Kong. I've been operating in and out of Hongkong the past 6 years, and usually when the weather is crap...ferry service to macau come at a standstill. 300pax can easily be transported to hongkong easier via guangzhou than Macau.

Just my 2 cents...

[LHR_777]

posted by etrang:

He wasn't prepared to travel by ferry, but was quite happy to travel by a helicopter, in fact he asked twice, that had also not been inspected and approved by ALPA.

That's a fair point. Also, Captain Kravitts' talks about wise and cost effective business decisions, then wants a private chopper over the Macau-HK ferry. Interesting...

posted by 742:
But I do feel for the crew and passengers. Before I retire I would again like to ride on an international flight on an American airline where the management actually gives a d*** about running the airline.

Try taking a ride on Continental. Generally, their management do a good job of giving a d*** about running an airline.

[IcarusRising]

Shame on both parties involved in this fiasco. What Legacy !!!!

[411A]

Also, Captain Kravitts' talks about wise and cost effective business decisions, then wants a private chopper over the Macau-HK ferry. Interesting...

Sounds like the good Captain has quite an attitude...:rolleyes:
Hardly surprising when you think about it.:}

[FrequentSLF]

J. O.
I'd like to think that someone freshly awake and alert would not have been willing to do it "for a price",

it no doubt struck an already tired nerve

Pretty worrying...if such was the situation, how the safety of the PAX would have been ensured if he did extend his duty time? Is there a max duty time, which is not negotiable?:hmm:

All that said, I still believe he cared for his pax better than his company did. Many folks would have walked off with little more than a goodbye announcement.

I fully agree.:ok:

As for the opinion of the journo, I took the time to forward a copy of the captain's letter to him. I don't know if I'll get a response, but I'm monitoring the web site to see if he writes a follow-up.

Thanks for mentioning that, otherwise he would have received twice the same request. :D


AN

[Tjosan]

That's a fair point. Also, Captain Kravitts' talks about wise and cost effective business decisions, then wants a private chopper over the Macau-HK ferry. Interesting...

Not a private chopper, there's a regular helicopter service out of Macau.

[golfyankeesierra]

I think there's a little too much emphasis on how hard the diversion was. untill the apron being closed it doesn't seem much out of the ordinary. Usually they are at the end of the flight, usually to an previously unknown airport, often due to weather and it's also usual that you have to do your own fueling.
Long and stressfull day? Yes!
Reason for compensation? Yes, but not at passengers cost!

We are not paid the bigs bucks to fly the plane from A to B only. The autopilot does that.
We're paid to fly it from A to B and handle the problems you encounter! Part of the deal (and it makes work interesting).
Otherwise you should be a passenger yourself.

BTW Personally I rather divert after a longhaul with relief-pilot's then after an 9 hour flight without relief. Not only because of the rest but also because of the extra hands on the ground.

[Globaliser]

I had a lot of sympathy with the captain until I saw the bit about the ferry.Only SLF here, but I felt the same. When I got to the bit about the ferry not having been inspected by ALPA, it was a bit like the thirteenth chime of the clock: that which makes you start to doubt everything that has gone before.

[TeachMe]

JH Junior,

Guangzhou is a better choice in all ways.... except Chinese visa. HK and Macau do not need a visa for most people, thus passanges can get off the plane and perhaps go to a hotel or such if needed. In Gaungzhou unless you have a visa already or are chinese, you will be stuck on the plane or in the departure lounge.

[ShortfinalFred]

411a - so predictable.

[bartboeykens]

I'm afraid it's a problem of the american people in general. Why would I be afraid to turn my back to somebody when I just walk on a street anywhere in the world? Neither am I afraid to take a public bus, train or ferry, even in uniform. I would n't even think of chartering a private chopper, I'm just european

[Perwazee]

"...Ual 985

I'm afraid it's a problem of the american people in general. Why would I be afraid to turn my back to somebody when I just walk on a street anywhere in the world? Neither am I afraid to take a public bus, train or ferry, even in uniform. I would n't even think of chartering a private chopper, I'm just european."

Guess you have not been on buses and trains in India and Pakistan.
:p

[llondel]

Is it possible that the stuff about the ferry and helicopter were merely a way of getting back at the people who'd failed to do anything to help the flight earlier?

[411A]

Is it possible that the stuff about the ferry and helicopter were merely a way of getting back at the people who'd failed to do anything to help the flight earlier?

I suspect so, tit-for-tat, so to speak.
Let us not forget that some at UAL had an ALPA 'action' a few months ago, something about not wearing hats, and the disruption it caused to one flight.

What it amounts to is grown-ups with childish actions.
Never a pretty sight....:hmm:

[jetjackel]

Got a dozen stories like this myself flying for rat **** non scheds over the years.

UAL is having an internal nervous breakdown.

Money? not fatigued. No money? fatigued.

Attempting to "cut deals" while 300 pax sit in UAL coach seats. Spoiled brats.

Couldn't confirm the ferryboat was ALPA approved. My favorite part.

You guys better wakeup and start "asking" to "go the extra mile" or you might find yourselves on the "dark side" flying for companies like Spirit and Allegiant, making plumber wages.

[pacplyer]

Yep. I think you're right jetjackel.

But guys the ALPA approved ferry stuff, is probably not revenge or leverage, but likely just paranoia on the part of the Captain. Recall, he said it was his first trip over there, I think.

Macau has had a reputation in the past for gangsters and casino shootouts. Not sure if I'd want to board a ferry in bad weather with a dozen out to lunch, PMSing battleaxes making my life hell all the way over there! With my luck they'd pull their sky-witch prune-face routine on the "bamboo gang" or even worse you might run into some of your former passengers who were treated like dirt from another flight!

While 411a blames union mentality; I blame management for causing the union in the first place.

[FrequentSLF]

From Macau website.
TURBOJET operates almost 24 hours per day. Journeys between Macau and Hong Kong are hassle-free and convenient. The ticket price ranges from HK$142 in Economy class on weekdays for day service to HK$176 Economy class for night service. Tickets in Super class range from HK$240 to HK$275, and VIP cabins for 4 to 6 persons are also available at prices from HK$960 to HK$1,650.
The new CotaiJet high-speed catamarans connect customers between Hong Kong and Taipa Temporary Ferry Terminal in comfort. Operation hours are 07:00 to 17:00 at Hong Kong Macau Ferry Terminal every day. Shuttle buses are available from the Taipa Temporary Ferry Terminal to The Venetian Macao-Resort-hotel when you disembark from a ferry. The new CotaiJet service offers a choice of 3: Cotai Class, Cotai First and two of Cotai VIP Cabin (8 seats per Cotai VIP Cabin). The ticket prices range from HK$134 to HK$146 for Cotai Class and from HK$236 to HK$252 for Cotai First. Cotai VIP Cabin for 8 persons is available from HK$1,888 to HK$2,016.
Catamarans from the First Ferry offer roundtrip sailings between Macau and Kowloon, arriving at the China(HK) Ferry Terminal in Tsim Sha Tsui. Travel time is approximately 60 to 75 minutes. The ticket price ranges from HK$140 to HK$275. Economy class passengers are allowed to carry on board, free of charge, one piece of luggage not exceeding 20 kg in weight and Super class passengers are permitted one piece of luggage not exceeding 30 kg. Please note that the sum of length, width and height of the luggage may not exceed 158 cm (62 inches).


Travel time 60 to 75 min. VIP Cabins!
Well... hardly a dangerous or unconfortable trip!
Non approved by ALPA!
What about the PAX waited several hours for a crew replacement!

AN

[BenThere]

making plumber wages

Those were the good old days.

[free at last]

It is a very nice way to travel! Boeing made turbo-jet boats. If its made by Boeing I am Going!!!:)

[Huck]

he said it was his first trip over there, I think.

Obviously....

I cannot abide this desperate need for approval from lackeys back home. Make your decisions, cope with the scene onsite, go to the hotel. Who gives a **** if crew skeds has an attitude? And if you're in crew rest - disconnect your in-room phone and sleep. Call skeds in 12 hours. No requirement to field phone calls in your room.....

Captains make more money than anybody in the company except for upper management and the executives. Don't expect to make friends when you're making hard decisions.

[411A]

I cannot abide this desperate need for approval from lackeys back home. Make your decisions, cope with the scene onsite, go to the hotel. Who gives a **** if crew skeds has an attitude? And if you're in crew rest - disconnect your in-room phone and sleep. Call skeds in 12 hours. No requirement to field phone calls in your room.....

Captains make more money than anybody in the company except for upper management and the executives. Don't expect to make friends when you're making hard decisions.

Yup, 'tis a fact.
I do believe that the concerned Captain was just trying to make a 'statement'....and he failed, in spades.

Or, as I would prefer....an malcontent, not worthy of the position in the LHS.

[PAXboy]

Capot
But if I were running UAL, I would sack those who fought him over that issue so stupidly.Indeed but, when considering human nature (and having been in commercial employment for 30 years in various industries) it appears the folks back home who treated the crew and pax so badly - thought that was what their mgmt wanted. They would not have been working on a whim, they would be carrying out instructions that had been used before and that their only interest was to win on their terms, irrespective of the human beings that had paid for their flight to be safe and their fellow employees.

DingerX
The only time to negotiate from the flight deck is when a Hostage Rescue Team is en route.On the other hand, it may be said that the modern Captain is trained to negotiate at every turn, so as to gain the best outcome for all concerned? May be and May be not.


Whatever the detail, this airline sounds like it needs Gordon Bethune to 'do a Continental' on it.

[captjns]

Its amazing how unfatigued a crew can become when the deal $$$$$$$ is right!

Either you're too tired to fly or not! By the way were the available hotels in MACAU ALPA approved? If not sleep on the airport bench??? provided they are ALPA approved too.

[411A]

Its amazing how unfatigued a crew can become when the deal $$$$$$$ is right!


Exactly my point, captjns, primadonnas of the highest order.:eek:

[speech]

First Officer****not only went out to supervise but actually did the fueling. Without the actions and knowledge of First Officer **** the aircraft would not have been fueled.

While I liked the ALPA approved ferry boat very much, that one was my favorite. OMG :eek: You mean he actually had to get out of the cockpit to supervise refueling. Maybe it was even raining and he got wet...

And then they wonder why we don't roll the red carpet for them in business aviation :ugh:

It's actually more sad than funny.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Isn't it a good feeling to belong to strong union oriented airline?

Muppets.

[captjns]

Kind of surprised to see this thread was not originated on Airline Pilot Central. But then there probably would not be too much sympathy to those UAL lads.

I must say I was riveted to my screen about the issue with the fuel slip and the fact that the F/O had to supervise the fueling of his jet. Call in the union facilitators, for I can see some type of post traumatic in the wings.

[vapilot2004]

Firstly, two points possibly misunderstood here:
Contractual duty time is an entirely different animal than regulated duty time. The conversations between OPS and the flight deck crew were about the former.

Comments about the FO and refueling:
In Cap. Kravit's letter, he clearly states that the FO actually performed the refuel and did not just 'supervise.' The point is moot anyway.

Now to understanding the position this Captain was in from my point of view:

After having been manipulated and toyed with regarding hotels, transportation and duty times, I cannot blame this UAL Captains attitude towards the ground-dwelling management muppets. OPS bozos blocked each and every attempt of this mans quest for rest for himself and crew.

The offer of five hours pay was laughable when you consider that after the hairy arrival and hours on the ground in the aircraft, they would have had to resume their roster duties for a song. The crew was being cheated out of a well-deserved rest period that was contractually valid. The trip-drop offer should have been an amenable end to the impasse.

When you look at how UAL and other domestic airlines have basically cherry picked their pilots unions spoils under the guise of restructuring, the frustration of this pilot should be understood, especially by anyone in the business that has felt the pain of loss of hard-won contract points while management wizz home after their eight hours with benefits and bonuses intact and still flowing freely from the company coffers.

Finally, the 'unapproved' ferry comment may be laughable to some from the warmth and safety of their homes, but can you picture yourself and fellow crew huddled together with their bags en masse on a public transport in this (and I hate the term) post 9.11 world? Let's be real here and know that not all union rules are for mere comfort and convenience. The forced ride was OPS way of adding further insult to injury here.

[FrequentSLF]

Vapilot2004

Contractual duty time is an entirely different animal than regulated duty time. The conversations between OPS and the flight deck crew were about the former.

Point taken, therefore the Captain was only interested on what could have been his own benefit. He was not looking after the PAX. I can understand that he was looking at his own perosnal benefit, pitty that he blamed the managment for the PAX suffering, while he was also a factor in the equation.

The offer of five hours pay was laughable when you consider that after the hairy arrival and hours on the ground in the aircraft

Why it was a hairy arrival?

Finally, the 'unapproved' ferry comment may be laughable to some from the warmth and safety of their homes, but can you picture yourself and fellow crew huddled together with their bags en masse on a public transport in this (and I hate the term) post 9.11 world? Let's be real here and know that not all union rules are for mere comfort and convenience. The forced ride was OPS way of adding further insult to injury here.

Please read my previous post about the ferries.
Why the helipcter services would have been OK?

AN

[411A]

....but can you picture yourself and fellow crew huddled together with their bags en masse on a public transport...

Yeah, boozing it up in one of the suites.
Oh, the unfairness of it all....:rolleyes:

Primadonnas again.

[vapilot2004]

Please read my previous post about the ferries.
Why the helipcter services would have been OK?


Mr AN, I agree the ferry was not the real point and Cap knew it but had
reasons for his objections fully sustained in the rule book anyway.
The point was the impotent pencil pushers were playing silly and
small-minded power games from their tiny desks to the very end.

They attempted to maneuver the man and his crew into a corner
and as a final jab to their dignity as 'valued' employees, forced them
to leave the place by boat when a perfectly serviceable helo
was available and not completely out of line in cost.
I believe that his complaint on this point was the principal
involved and not the particular mode of transport.

[ShortfinalFred]

More armchair quaterbacking from 411a allied to his preachey hatred of any unionised workforce. If I read him a'right then its OK for the company to screw the workforce on every element of the compensation and work contract, but woe betide the serfs if they ever do anything other than roll over and offer back more.

There's certainly a good lesson here - dont negotiate - leave the company with the passengers - go to the hotel and take legal rest. If you are fatigued, thats the end of the debate. Frankly, if you do anything else you are open to a law suit anyway. One touch of a wingtip when taxying and your career is most likely over. Its obvious - there is no debate.

Dont do their lying for them either - let the station manager or designated handling agent come up with a pack of bullcr*p about "no hotels". As to positioning back to HK - do you as a responsible Commander in a post 9/11 world place a crew of perhaps 18 to 20 plus American Citizens in uniform on what amounts to a public bus, presumably prior to being asked to operate? Note the tragedy of an American Citizen knifed to death at the Olympics by a random member of the Chinese public. I would be very hesitant to do that as a Commander with a duty of care to my crew.

And 411a's standard retort - all Captains are "prima donnas". I dispair, which is presumably what 411a wants. Are you a schizophrenic 411a, that you participate (presumably) in an industry where you hold such contempt for the participants? I suggest that there is something seriously wrong with your need to undermine and or attack "fellow professionals", (and I am assuming here that you do still fly in command on a large public transport aeroplane on international routes - hence the quote marks around my use of the term "fellow professionals"). If a Captain does anything other than roll over and accept an endless degradation of the terms of his career he's a "prima donna" - doubtless you like your serfs nice and compliant? I think you have an agenda fulled by a hatred of ALPA and a new-found sense that management's compensation package can be enhanced only by screwing over their "fellow professionals" on the line, (and I now use the quotes for irony), at each and every turn. I think this agenda colours everything you write and devalues it accordingly.

[vapilot2004]

Apologies for my late response to this other fair point you have put out here for discussion, AN.

Point taken, therefore the Captain was only interested on what could have been his own benefit. He was not looking after the PAX. I can understand that he was looking at his own perosnal benefit, pitty that he blamed the managment for the PAX suffering, while he was also a factor in the equation.

The inconveniences to the passengers, in order of root cause would have been number one, the weather, followed by some inflexible company pinheads 12Km to their west and then the local airport authority for hindering both disembarkation and any re-bookings. The flight deck crews choices were not in the top three on my take of that afternoon, evening and late nights malaise.

Even if the Captain and crew had decided to turn the aircraft themselves
after the fueling was finally accomplished some five or more hours in, the time saved for passengers in my best estimation would have been under two hours.

Meanwhile, the entire crew would have been on duty for practically one solar day with no reasonable amount of rest nor compensation in sight for their efforts.

[FrequentSLF]

vapilot2004,

I agree with your evaluation but note this sentence from the letter

Once again, after an hour, I requested (almost begged) OPB to accept our offer and suggestion to drop our trips and let us get the airplane and passengers to Hong Kong. The entire ordeal could have been over in another thirty minutes as the fueler was enroute. The response was an abrupt, “No!”


I understand that he was ready to fly the aircraft to HKG. This was after the weather delay. But since his "offer" was not accepted he did not waived his duty time. I estimated that happend before 19.00 (L).

In response to another post. For most nationals (including USA citizens) Macau does not required entry Visa for stay up to 30 days (no return ticket required).

Cheers
AN

[411A]

And 411a's standard retort - all Captains are "prima donnas". I dispair, which is presumably what 411a wants.

No, Fred, not all Captains, just a few.
Sadly, these folks make far more waves than they are entitled to, and paint all of the rest with the same broad brush.

And yes (to answer your question), still in Command of a large public transport wide-body jet aircraft.

[WindSheer]

As usual the 'pen pushers' fail to appreciate the insecurity and emotion associated with being so far from home, whilst exhausted on a dark blustery night. This alone is pressure enough to deal with, without recieving added pressure from a complete team of clowns in a warm comfy room close to home.

Absolute joke!!:=

[PAXboy]

Irrespective of who was right and who was wrong (and it was probably in the middle somewhere as most human disputes are) I think that the folks in the office could benefit by accompanying a crew for a tour of duty and the flight crew could benefit from sitting alongside the desk crew for a week.

If people in a company start to understand the jobs of those on either side of them in the supply chain - then the company will work better. The larger a company gets, the further apart the components become. Eventually, they cannot hold together and the chain gives way. This letter describes a chain at breaking point.

[411A]

Now THAT's a prima donna Captain.

Sorry, Dan, it most definitely is not.
It is the chain of command, working as it should.
The chairman of the company I work for calls the tune about where we fly, what hotac is provided, what transport is used to/from the airport and, askes my advice about operational matters.
He does not determine how much fuel I uplift, whether I need a tech stop (or not) for the route to be flown, does not provide licensed dispatchers (we do this ourselves) and the contracted handling service files the flight plan and provides the weather, notams, and passenger/baggage arrangements.

In short, no interferance from the head shed, and we, the FD crew, determine whether we operate in accordance with mandated regulations, including flight duty times.
That is what we are paid to do....not tell the company about magagement areas.

The UAL Captain in question was just making excuses.
If he and his crew were out of duty time, it's off to hotac.
As it should be.
Further, the said UAL Captain was only trying to bargin for a better deal, and in fact, was not looking after his passengers in a reasonable and prudent manner, by trying to bargin to drop trips in order to extend his flight duty period.

A typical ALPA dimwit.

[Huck]

If people in a company start to understand the jobs of those on either side of them in the supply chain - then the company will work better.

I'm told that newhire pilots at UPS spend a day riding in one of their delivery vans.....

[ShortfinalFred]

411a's loathing of ALPA displayed for all to see. Just because you are a bigot it does not confer legitimacy to all your pronouncements. You are famously selective in ignoring issues that dont fit your union-hating agenda too, but I guess thats a characteristic of bigotry anyway.

[rigpiggy]

I remember a BBC series called "back to the floor" might be time for mgmt, to relearn the system

[411A]

I remember a BBC series called "back to the floor" might be time for mgmt, to relearn the system

On the other hand, it might be high time ALPA folks actually began the task for which they were hired in the first place...to fly passengers safely to their destination, and to not play these same passengers in a game of one-up-man-ship...with management.

ALPA.
Lorenzo was right...ALPA doesn't have a clue.:yuk:
Never has, never will.
None, nada, zip.
Proven...time and time again.

[ShortfinalFred]

411a - change the record mate, we've heard the anti-ALPA rant too many times.

[FrequentSLF]

The UAL Captain in question was just making excuses.
If he and his crew were out of duty time, it's off to hotac.
As it should be.
Further, the said UAL Captain was only trying to bargin for a better deal, and in fact, was not looking after his passengers in a reasonable and prudent manner, by trying to bargin to drop trips in order to extend his flight duty period.


That's the point. What amazes me is that is also trying to portrait himself as the good guy while all the others are the bad ones.
He said that he kept the passengers informed about the situation, I do wonder if he updated the passengers about his personal negotiations with UAL...
AN

[All Smiles]

As far as this UAL Captain on this forum: only those who are on the brink of fatigue know the limits. In his case: precious time with our families is our biggest motivator. I have known pilots with children and wives with cancer or other life-related events to hold to a picket line for the bottom line; and in this Captain's scenario: a fellow family member's health, and the help you can bring to it can seriously outweigh the stress and fatigue that you PLAN to experience once you get home. The FAA is VERY specific about our flying conditions whilst under Stress, Fatigue, and Emotion. If you have not had an experience as an airline pilot YOU do not understand the implications of violating these FARs. As a person, think about knowing that you could have extra time with your dying mother (think of your mother now) and truly understand the caring, family person, and loving motivation that this Captain had in this scenario. He chose less pay over time with his mother. For those of who have not lost a love one you do not understand that KNOWING you can spend more time with them is more valuable and will motivate you out of any fatigue situation!! Those of you with any heart or compassion may possibly begin to understand the motivation of family over pay; those that criticise here are merely greedy.

Please understand I don't know this Captain, I've only read this forum, and it relates to my priorities: time with my family. Life is not merely work. I would take the $1000+ less pay to have more time with my family at any point.

As far as the ferry: Americans are not valued or well-liked outside of the U.S. right now. Do I need to tell you this or are you blind and deaf?! Americans currently are harrassed and assaulted all over the world; even those who never supported this derelict U.S. President. Have you missed the rioting and picketing? A security issue, of course. And not necessarily for a European or Asian. If a chopper costs nearly the same as a ferry, and as a large crew actually ends up cheaper; why not provide this simple service after a long trip and night? Management is just plain arrogant at this point.

But those of you who criticise clearly will not be as good of Captains as this man has been. He's been praised by his passengers. We can only do our jobs so well with people like you criticising. Reading this forum is like reading about all of the negative people in life, who don't actually care about the importance of life: the comfort and safety of our passengers and most importantly, our families.

Good luck out there.

To this Captain, and myself experiencing a similar scenario I say :D.

[ZQA297/30]

Most professional pilots have been in similar situations at least once or twice, perhaps more times, in their life.
On your own, in some God-forsaken place that you are unfamiliar with.

The complicating factors are usually.
Crew duty limitations, contractual or legal.
Weather.
Tech problems.
Handling problems.
Communications.

To the Ops dept you are now just one big headache, and they will do almost anything to keep the flight alive.
They will book you on "airlines" that you would not even allow your mother in law on. They will put you in hotels where the rats are as big as dogs, on top of a freight marshalling yard, and air conditioning is a 50/50 hit and miss deal.
They will bend the truth, and play semantics with words and intents, just to complete the flight.
Safety drops to the lower end of the priority list, its about getting the flight done.
If you are not willing to bend the rules, you are likely to be labelled as "troublesome" by your management.

That is why there are unions. And why unions get involved in the suitability of hotels, and transportation.

And to someone who asked about armed guards; I have been scheduled into a country where we had an armed backup car follow the crew bus to and from hotel because of several incidents of armed robbery.

I have never even seen the ferries talked of, and they are probably luxurious and safe, but I continually read and see reports of overloaded ferries sinking in bad weather in the far east, so I would be very leery of jumping willy nilly on said ferries unless someone I trust had done the research.

I dont know about the airline under discussion here, but in my day, the limits to be applied were the most restrictive of either the legal limits, or the contractual limits, which were encompassed in the ops manual. Once it was in the ops manual, an "approved document", it was legally binding unless the legal (regulatory) limit was more restrictive.

I must add the caveat that I am retired since 2004, and flew for an airline that had an impeccable safety record, and by and large the ops people were a bunch of very decent guys, but pressure changes the nature of the game. I suspect that not much has changed since my day.

[Globaliser]

As to positioning back to HK - do you as a responsible Commander in a post 9/11 world place a crew of perhaps 18 to 20 plus American Citizens in uniform on what amounts to a public bus, presumably prior to being asked to operate? Note the tragedy of an American Citizen knifed to death at the Olympics by a random member of the Chinese public. I would be very hesitant to do that as a Commander with a duty of care to my crew.Americans currently are harrassed and assaulted all over the world; even those who never supported this derelict U.S. President. Have you missed the rioting and picketing? A security issue, of course.On your own, in some God-forsaken place that you are unfamiliar with.
...
I have never even seen the ferries talked of, and they are probably luxurious and safe, but I continually read and see reports of overloaded ferries sinking in bad weather in the far east, so I would be very leery of jumping willy nilly on said ferries unless someone I trust had done the research.OK, I'm only SLF here, but I do have to ask if you guys are for real.

We aren't talking about God-forsaken places here. We aren't talking about cowboy parts of the Far East with poor safety standards. We aren't even talking about China, for goodness' sake.

We're talking about Macau and Hong Kong - firmly first world countries, and about as cosmpolitan as you could find anywhere. Thousands of Americans live here, together with just about every other nationality under the sun. And nobody cares.

This is the bit of the letter that went way beyond reason and jumped firmly into wild paranoia. And that therefore calls the individual's judgement into question.As usual the 'pen pushers' fail to appreciate the insecurity and emotion associated with being so far from home, whilst exhausted on a dark blustery night.And I have to ask this: While I can understand being exhausted on a dark blustery night, what on earth is someone doing flying long-haul airliners if they are going to come over feeling all insecure and emotional just from being in ... well, another first world country? Wrong job, perhaps?

[411A]

And I have to ask this: While I can understand being exhausted on a dark blustery night, what on earth is someone doing flying long-haul airliners if they are going to come over feeling all insecure and emotional just from being in ... well, another first world country? Wrong job, perhaps?



No, Globaliser, you are not somehow 'odd' to question this scenario.

Clearly, the UAL Captain was totally out of his league, and in fact, more than likely, should never have left the US mainland, with his completely 'left field' attitude.
In short, he simply could not cope with the situation he found himself in, and therefore was looking for excuses.

Fact.
Never send a 'boy' to do a man's job.

The UAL Captain?
Just another little boy in tall trousers.:rolleyes:

[40&80]

Having read this lot... I am nolonger so sad about failing the UAL pilot selection "StayNine" tests in 1967.
Also having failed this test....It also prevented me being hired by
Eastern Airlines and other great American Airlines like Pan Amm and National.....with all the "Right stuff" selected how could they all have failed?
Possibly...The management was the "Wrong Stuff".

[John Marsh]

All Smiles wrote:

'For those of who have not lost a love one you do not understand that KNOWING you can spend more time with them is more valuable and will motivate you out of any fatigue situation!!'

I'm intrigued by the concept of being motivated out of fatigue. Surely fatigue is not merely an unmotivated state. In this context, it's a condition of reduced ability to function. Which could be fatal.

[411A]

Fatigue, my foot.
Many junior pilots cry 'fatigue' all day long.
I say...bull cr*p.
Many of these junior pilots don't know the meaning of the word.
They go out and disco all night, then cry 'fatigue' at the least opportunity.
Sorry guys, won't pass muster.

Then we have the folks who say.....'but our families are important, we need more time with them.

Airlines don't give a rats a**about this.
When these pilots walked through the HR door, they asked for a JOB ...OMG, what an absolute surprise

The scenario is, either these folks put up or shut up...management doesn't care...they will simply move on to the next guy/gal...and there are plenty in line.

[ShortfinalFred]

411A what a crock of pure Sh*t you talk, a crock of cr*p. You are unfit to command an airliner let alone unfit to hold a management position in any airline. If fatigue is irrelevant, if any quality of life issues are irrelevant and flight crew experience within an airline worthless as you assert then I dont want to be anywhere near an airline where your principles apply, either as a passenger or indeed in the same airspace. What was your outfit called? I doubt very much that a responsible airline insurer would want to underwrite such an airline either.

Who in the future will want to enter the airline industry when it becomes, as you so enthusiastically urge, a sweatshop with no interest or concern for the safety critical component, the thing that keeps your wife and kids when they are passengering on that airline you despise alive when the chips are down. If you think through the logical consequences of your statement you are advocating the ruination of your own profession. But I dont think rational thought is your strongpoint really is it, not with over five thousand posts slagging-off your own profession to your name? More of a reflex action really. Says it all.

[ZQA297/30]

To illustrate my point, the stories below show what can happen in "God forsaken" places (in this case Philly and Piarco) .
When the excrement hits the ventilator, the Capt is left with tons of theoretical authority, but no power to get anything useful done.
Unless you are the John Wayne type, like someone we know, in which case you jump out the cockpit window on to your horse, and ride off to find the cavalry.
Wimpy ALPA types, cry your eyes out.


(Tongue in cheek warning for those with thin skin.)




[

[411A]

<<Who in the future will want to enter the airline industry when it becomes, as you so enthusiastically urge...>>

No less than at least four applicants for every one pilot hired.
In other words...thousands.

Climb down from your ivory tower, Fred.
Do you really believe that line pilots have any advantage to lever a more favorable deal from airline management?
The recently aborted BALPA 'action' versus British Airways should provide a clue...provided of course that you are prepared to actually read between the lines and thereby truly understand the situation.

ALPA is a dead duck.

[J.O.]

Funny, I don't find 411A's postings offensive at all. But then again, that's because long ago I made him the one and only member on my IGNORE list. It's a wonderful feature, and it keeps the stress level much lower on what can sometimes be a pretty frustrating forum.

[cockney steve]

I can *sort of* see where 411a is coming from.

Too many people today are locked in a "them V us " attitude. all out for what they can GET....no thought of commitment to GIVE,just trying to get away with the least possible input.

possibly the pilot on the O.P. could have been firmer with the tossers he was dealing with.-bargaining certainly removed any high ground he may have occupied.

In extremis, phone the Managing Director! Make it your business to know HOW to contact the "top dogs".....they'll be well pee'd off if their leisure (or business) is disrupted because some "manager" doesn't!....they get paid good money to insulate the big-cheeses from this sort of crap

It's drastic, but it works! any employer who's crap enough to ignore you, or allow y"sanctions" to go unchecked, is not worth working for anyway!

I've always gone "the extra mile" for employers/customers.Ultimately went self-employed over 30 years ago....no manager dictates to me :)

[411A]

Yup, cockney steve, has got it right...in spades.

Die-hard ALPA/APA guys are only trying to pi** into a hurricane...it just ain't going to work.

BALPA folks found out recently....wonder when ALPA/APA folks will wake up?
I can only laugh at their present antics.

[rogerg]

BALPA/ALPA who cares, just do what you have to do to get the job done. A lovely feeling.

[pspcz]

how embarrassing, to use these two sentences in the same context

"On July 26, 2008 I was in command of United flight 895 from Chicago to Hong Kong"

"I explained to ******** that as long as we were not too fatigued to fly by the time we got fuel that we would waive duty time if the crew desk would drop our next IDs and pay protect us."

Clowns like this are the reason why we are treated as a necessary evil. Either you can fly the aircraft safely or not...end of story.

[Checkboard]

We elected to abandon our approach in Hong Kong ... but in rapidly deteriorating visual conditions ... the controller cleared us for the approach,

So, a cruise diversion to a visual approach (ILS assisted) - about as simple as it gets, short of an actual visual arrival at your destination. :ok:

leaving us to guide ourselves to the localizer

Well, "Boo Hoo"! :hmm:

with heavy rain and lightning the airport and ramp were shut down. ... the ramp ended up being closed for several hours.

Frustrating, but you give a PA, crank back the seat and close the eyes until it opens. Nice rest, no bother. :zzz:

I am personally not motivated by money.

You turned your nose up at five hours pay in order to insist on a "paid trip drop" - tens of hours worth of pay, for nothing, and a guaranteed stay at home! :suspect: I have (legally) extended duty several times to get the job done, without pay. Five hours extra for a 30 min hop to my original destination would be sufficient, I think.

It seemed a no brainer to us because a reserve would be paid to sit around anyway whether they fly or not

Not motivated by loyalty to your fellow crew either then? :D Happy to sit at home on full pay, with no chance of a standby callout, and enjoy the time off by forcing the standby (who also have families) to fly, even though you're not sick or unable to operate? :mad:

Without the actions and knowledge of First Officer **** the aircraft would not have been fueled.

Don't know how to fuel your own aircraft, and have to rely on the FO? Sounds like the FO is a bit more competent!

they were going to bring pilots in from Hong Kong via ferry boat. :yuk:

Sounds like a sufficient test to see if US citizens are murdered on Macau ferry boats then. Wonder if the incoming crew were complaining about not getting a chopper ride?

The hotel had only five rooms available which were all suites. :{

Didn't think of trying the hotel you used for the Cabin crew then? Save the company a few dollars?

I was forced to wake up early (after only five hours of sleep) and check my computer to see if an update was done because I had no idea what kind of rest requirements we needed

Forced to wake up early?? Really?? Perhaps the computer update wasn't done because they expected you to sleep for a decent period!

I could barely tell someone my age much less figure out a duty day and rest time.

What were you doing for the hours you were on the ramp while it was closed?? Didn't think to actively monitor the situation and possible forward requirements? :ugh:

I told him that I was uncomfortable riding on a ferry in any case, and very concerned that United Airlines was forcing me to ride on public transportation with no security measures onboard. I told him that there were other options including a helicopter.

Tested by the inbound crew? But you used it anyway - so not "very concerned" after all eh? ;) Helicopter flight ( Heli Express Limited / Macau / Hong Kong (http://www.helihongkong.com/?structure=003) ) $HK2200 per passenger, ferry "HK$142 in Economy class on weekdays for day service to HK$176 Economy class for night service. Tickets in Super class range from HK$240 to HK$275," - and you seriously thought that after refusing more than five hours pay, they were going to get the entire crew (or did you just mean yourself) an express heli ride?

All this, and so convinced you did a good job that you wrote up a couple of pages on it!! :rolleyes:

[TheChitterneFlyer]

There's been some pretty harsh words said within this particular thread, but thank God that many of the respondants aren't on the Jury of any Board of Enquirey.

After such a very long duty day/night it's been my experience to be treated in a similar manner. Initial contact with crewing always commences low-key, but then gets ramped-up over the process of time. It's perhaps easier and less stressful to continue with an extended duty to another airport rather than trying to direct/organise a nightstop for pax/crew and aircraft. However, we all know that we are tired and that any further 'incident/accident' will lead to our own heads being put onto the chopping block, and it's those fears that are historically proven to be correct. Once that you commence to try and do any bargaining with crewing... you've lost the game; especially so within modern air operations that are steered by finance. Know the rules; and then act accordingly. If you've ben on duty for 24 hours... take 24 hours rest; however, you can't sleep twice in 24 hours, so you end up being just as knackered as the day before; except it's cumulative.

In conclusion, it's always going to be dangerous ground... especially on PPrune; where all of the 'experts' will judge you from the comfort of an armchair.

TCF

[411A]

... especially on PPrune; where all of the 'experts' will judge you from the comfort of an armchair.


Remembering, of course, that a few here have been in the business for quite a long time.:}

[Rananim]

In the old days you would have just called the CP and sorted it out.CP's were management,they sat on the board.And the CP knew you personally,you werent a number.A good CP would probably have said no to the chopper ride and said something along the lines of "Ill see what I can do" to his paid trip off.Quid pro quo.Sounds like this skipper was born in the wrong generation.
Checkboard's line by line dissection of his actions is going too far the other way.A happy medium is comfortable.Fatigue is a real issue in longhaul and crews need to be looked after just a little bit better than shorthaul guys.

[Checkboard]

Fatigue is an issue in all operations. This guy told crewing he was willing to operate - he just refused because an extra five hours pay wasn't enough for him.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

As indeed I have!

[411A]

Fatigue is an issue in all operations. This guy told crewing he was willing to operate - he just refused because an extra five hours pay wasn't enough for him.

Yup, in a nutshell...that's it.

The UAL Captain...a turkey of the highest order....IE: simply not fit for long-haul ops.

Why are we not surprised?:rolleyes:

[ShortfinalFred]

And why am I, or indeed anyone else, not surprised to see 411A's self-righteous pronouncements scattered all over this thread? Frankly, anyone who'se got the time to make OVER FIVE THOUSAND posts to his board, the great majority of which condemn his fellow pilots as easily-replaced lackeys, just can't be in full time longhaul flying and/or lacks for a real life and some sanity.

I am begining to think the "ignore button" on this board may well have its uses!

[vapilot2004]

And why am I, or indeed anyone else, not surprised to see 411A's self-righteous pronouncements scattered all over this thread? Frankly, anyone who'se got the time to make OVER FIVE THOUSAND posts to his board, the great majority of which condemn his fellow pilots as easily-replaced lackeys, just can't be in full time longhaul flying and/or lacks for a real life and some sanity.

I am begining to think the "ignore button" on this board may well have its uses!

He's got his good points. :p
I gather Mr. 411 has come up from the ranks long ago and has observed a few things about unions, airlines and such. Now I'm not saying that we are anywhere near detente on unions, him and I. :E