The NEW AOA, It is time!!!

[Saturn]

OK, we have all be whinging and winging for some time about all the issues . I am guilty of course. Now we have a new president and firstly, I urge you ALL to go to Youtube and search "HKAOA". It is a call to arms boys and girls!!!

We have a new president and new direction. The offices at CX city (across the street) will be manned daily.

NOW IS THE TIME folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We all are guilty of complaining but not doing anything. Lets do something! Join the AOA if you have not. Volunteer if you aren't and get invloved. DO NOT throw stones at our brothers and sisters at Dragon, get them on our side. None of this is their fault. As far as the Oasis guys, get them involved too. Splitting us apart is what THEY want. WE CAN'T HAVE IT. Let's fight the people we really need to fight. Let's take it back. Let THEM know NO MORE!!!

If you truly have had enough, NOW IS THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We can do it. Can anyone say LUFTHANSA!

Instead of spending energy here on the Prune, lets' spend it where it needs to be spent.:ok:

Come on WHO'S WITH ME????

YouTube - PPWHKAOA's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/PPWHKAOA)

[Phlap1]

Hooray

We have now discovered the next pilot DFO
And a payrise for John Findlay also long overdue
This will work, sign up folks,progress at last

[EngineOut]

Nice work Mr. President! :ok:

Now come on guys and gals, please join up!

[Svengali]

YouTube video has already been removed?

[Yeager]

That was quick.. Mayby the video went down into the same bin as the one of the former Chief Pilot - who got eaten by his own.. Nasty :ugh: :D

[EngineOut]

no video is still there, click the link in the first post.

Also, I believe SOs subsciption is only $200/month now.

[whodunnit2]

Thank you Mr. President. That certainly makes me feel a little better about my subscription fees. It's just really nice to see some effort being made in terms of communication.


Come on blokes share the video with all your CX mates so that it gets seen by everyone, not just the Pprune mob.

W2

[cpdude]

Very impressed and happy with some early decisions. Good work!:ok:

[bellcrank88]

A good start I would say. Now get off of your but, download the membership list and pick out a few of your free loadiing buddies to put the screws to and get them to join.

[JoeShmoe]

BTTT Go AOA

[iceman50]

Dream on people!:D:D

Think you are going to get support from those who will only join if the subs are only HK$2-300. Will they pay the 5% when it comes to it??

Too many "dreamers" have joined since the dispute and think that they are the only ones whose contract should now be fully protected - grow up people. Did you not realise or understand what you were getting into, everyone who has joined the company has had a contract "adjustment". Perhaps you just believed the spin and that "you" would be looked after, as you joined during or after the "troubles"!:ugh::ugh:

[icanfly2]

Great to see some positive leadership from the AOA, Thank you I look forward to supporting the cause in anyway I can. Lets give people a period to get onboard say 6 weeks and then go it alone, what matters is not so much numbers but having the drive from above to stick to our guns. If 55% of the workforce made a stand that would hurt the company. I agree with what was said indirectly in the youtube video - NO MORE FREELOADERS!!! If you not in the AOA then the AOA should negoitate with the company for and onbehalf of members only (surely this can be arranged) and benefits from those negotiations are soley for the members, ie a payrise given to 55% of the workforce. This makes sense for the company aswell it halves there extra salary expenses.

I will be passing the word on to all my fellow pilots who are non union.

Go the AOA and Paul W.

[A. Le Rhone]

Good luck to you. A good YouTube presentation too.

You will of course get the inevitable naysayers (the 'dream on' brigade) but don't let that dissuade you, you must and will improve that 55%.

To muck up the cliche: Divided we have fallen, so the only way to improve our lot (whining on PPRuNe doesn't do it) is to UNITE.

It's no use simply posting these icons on PPRuNe:ugh:and thinking that's your contribution to the effort. Join, use some industrial savvy, work cohesively and achieve your goals.

[Night Watch]

Mr President

Great start to the new job!

I choose to remain optimistic about the future, if we can do as you have mentioned in the video and increase membership.

[cpdude]

It always amazes me how something positive quickly gets shot down by some naysayer...iceman50...your a piece of work mate.:rolleyes:

[Saturn]

This is why I posted what I did. The storm is coming folks. We are just starting to get the wind.

[sirhcttarp]

That video is just plain offensive to those that do not receive housing allowance either by choice or by contract.

And now it seems the president wants to pressure those who already don't receive housing allowance to cough up money or else they're hurting those who do receive housing allowances' contract?

At least make an effort to recognize the GROSS difference in contracts and charge membership dues accordingly and avoid further alienation of potential membership by rubbing salt in the wounds of those who must suffer a severe reduction in disposable income or a severe reduction in quality and size of domicile due to an inflated housing price environment.

In fact it could be argued that those that do not receive housing allowance and join the aoa would be paying to degrade their own contracts. For example since some of the effort of the AOA obviously goes to securing other goals than pay rise such as the INDEXED housing allowance policy, then not 100% of the dues of those that do not receive housing will be used to fight for a pay rise. Therefore those that do not receive housing are getting back less than they put in.

Bullying and pressure tactics are not ways to increase membership. Unless you're the communist party.

[Saturn]

shritcrapp. Please make sure the AOA knows your grievance. They can't fix what they don't know. Please go see them at CX city and tell J.F. Thank you.

[MACH.88]

A bloody good start!! Let's continue to plod forward!

MACH.88:cool:

[ACMS]

Yep, well done Paul and GC.

Let's spread the word.

Enough of crap excuses fellas.


JUST JOIN UP.

You've nothing to lose.:ok:

[Liam Gallagher]

You started this thread with a stirring post urging us to join the mighty AOA.

However, some days ago, 7th July to be exact, you wrote this....

"The info on those Oasis guys who took the positions no-one else applied for IS FALSE! When the AOA did nothing about that I knew t was over. I have given up on the AOA. I did my part for years and now know it has all been in vain. The violations of just the current agreements have been unprecedented. You can disagree or agree but we had our chance and the AOA will NEVER be able to really do anything for us again""

I have added the bold.

Saturn, one of us is a confused chappie

and I suspect it's not me:eek:

[cpdude]

Liam, you may be right but thankfully we have an AOA willing to try! I give top marks to this president for early decisions and the gumption to want to fix things.

Just two weeks ago I too was very negative on the AOA. Given this video speech, I'm willing to give them another shot.

So, you can ask yourself, are you going to stand in their way and become just another hurdle or will you help them...help you?;)

[quadspeed]

A leader is, per definition, nothing without his followers.

Excellent move in this direction by the new president.

[Liam Gallagher]

Just two weeks ago I too was very negative on the AOA.

Try two days mate.... didn't you write some post that finished with "Me Me Me".... however did find this recent gem...

way anything will ever change is if people leave and/or stop coming. Otherwise, what you get is all you will get!

With you and Saturn as cheerleaders for the New President, PW* must get a warm fuzzy feeling..... I feel so inspired....

*For PW; read Ph!l W@lker or P@ul We@ther!lt (delete as appropriate)

[cpdude]

Liam, you sound like you would be happy if the new pres failed!:=

Days or weeks doesn't matter, if it's the same old stuff then nothing will change but when I see a change then anything is possible. Personally, I would rather see a change regardless of the method.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Great post guys, this is what we need, some momentum!!!
Any locals who feel they wont be represented, you need to get in touch with JF/PW and have a chat, if you choose to put your head in the sand then that is your own fault!!
All the ney sayers will continue here, doom and gloom, but what do they offer you as solutions....yeah nothing!!!! No-one can deny the failings of the AoA in recent times but its time to move on again and with this new GC and Prez there is hope!!!!!! Come on guys, put up or shut up!!!!!:ok:

[Liam Gallagher]

Don't try and deflect the flak; I have no issue with the New President; far from it...

I have an issue with you and Saturn. Am I really to believe a 7:15 Youtube video can turn you both into AOA cheerleaders?

If this President leads you in a direction ST wasn't prepared to (and I am not suggesting he will) and the Company responds with Negative Rostering and Contracts in Mailboxs and it all starts to get a bit uncomfortable; I wonder where your Sequins and Pom-Poms will be then?

Further, whilst you both were on here slagging off the AOA, it was known that PW was going to be the next President and his manifesto was available for all to see.... so why the big change once a short video is released. Perhaps if you spent more time keeping up with Company Politics and less time on here spouting emotive rhetoric, I would respect you both a bit more.

[Saturn]

Liam, please read my initial post again. I admit to what I have said. But I have decided to give it another try. No, it is not just the video, that is just silly isn't it. You can slag me and Capt dude if you like but again I'd ask to direct it where it needs to be directed. If the issues do not affect you nor does it bother you about your brothers and sisters at CX, then I guess you are just having a great career. There are a lot of us who are getting absouletely screwed by the issues and we need to at least try to fix it. I personally am ashamed of the lies being told by the 3rd floor. I am actually surprised these guys have given into what they know is flat wrong.

I have just decided to direct my energy and my fight to where it needs to be. I am also looking at other opportunities as if the issues do not got fixed, it is time to fly. There are still a lot of opportunities out there.

If we accept DEC's then what would be the point of working for CX. Here is our very last chance.

I ask that your refrain from copying and posting, it does no good. Thanks.

[cpdude]

Couldn't care a bit about having your respect Liam. :}

[rjmore]

At the very least it looks to be a step in a better direction. The other encouraging step is the use of the Wilson people to poll the group. I still didn't see much mention of us freighter pukes though other than the pax guys aren't happy having to fly them. We are here too, "wearing the same uniform". God forbid, now some of you actually have to fly with us :eek:

[Liam Gallagher]

I ask that your refrain from copying and posting, it does no good. Thanks

Does no good for whom? You perchance.. by demonstrating how inconsistent your posts are?

If people like CPdude and ACMS come on here trying to sell the "new AOA", I feel it is important to point out they have a posting history showing a gross misunderstanding of basic Company Politics.... readers are then free to make up their own minds as to validity of the opinions expressed in their posts..... I think it's all part of being in a free society and informed decision making.

[ACMS]

Pardon me?

What did you say?

posting history showing a gross misunderstanding of basic Company Politics

please cut and paste what I said in the past to deserve that remark mate.

[Fac6]

Liam, Cpdude and Saturn,

Could you ladies take your handbags and go private with your cat fight please? Can we stay on topic?

Whilst a simple Youtube vid is not going to spark a major revolution, it is nonetheless a positive step from the AOA president.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Yeah come on guys, time to move on, that is the general theme here, put your differences aside and smoke the peace pipe!!
I just watched the vid and thought it was well thought out with some good balanced views from the new Prez!!
Start recruiting peoples!!!!!

[Liam Gallagher]

At your service as always...

Just a selection from the recent Direct Entry Captain thread;

8th June 2008

... know a guy that was in Air Hong Kong back about 6 years ago ( the days when they operated the 747's in blue ) as a Capt.

We integrated some of them into CX into the Freighter fleet after we bought AHK? right?

So how come his date of Joining is shown as 1995 in Crew Direct and now he is checking out on the 400 PAX fleet as a Capt HKG base? ( I think he's flying PAX now )

Why isn't his DOJ around 2002? The date of the integration.

Only 3 basic factual errors there; but we all make mistakes. Loopdeloop and Firewall tried to put you straight. Still convinced, that some nasty-ex Freighter pilot was engaged in some underhanded plot, you responded on the 9th June...

All I know is that this guy was with AHK from '95. He was a Capt on the 742 classic and in 2000 he must have joined the CX seniority list. Now he's got a 744 Pax left seat based in HK on a fairly good housing allowance.

How'd he rate that after only 8 years on our list?

FAC6 and Fenwicksgirls nice try as peacemakers; ACMS, CPDude and Saturn have all come on here encouraging us to join the AOA. Whilst they are entitled to their views, surely I am entitled to examine their posting records and question them as to their credibilty as salesmen for the AOA. This is Pprune... not Cprune... debate is allowed here....

[ACMS]

yes so.....
I wasn't sure so I asked a question using 100% correct information ( without the guys name ) and was immediatly shot down for being an A:mad: trying to stir trouble...............nice types

[cpdude]

For the record...I encourage all but Liam Gallagher to join the AOA!:}:E

[so_tired]

liam, you wouldn't be an 89'er would you?

[Liam Gallagher]

and if I am?

[Saturn]

I do not of course mind debate at all. But Liam you have made it personal. How you have picked me out I do not know but what you did on the other thread was bizarre and just plain disturbing. To actullay try and hurt my chances at another possible employer is so :mad: up that I actually cannot believe we work for the same company. It is one thing to debate or disagree with me on the issues and you are quite right there but to write what you wrote is just plain deranged. WTF over??? I will not let you disuade me form the task however. We all now know your true colors as a distubed and deranged individual. I mean damn dude. This will be my last repsonse to you. I hope the moderator would take you off after your post to 411a about me.

Now back to our program

[so_tired]

"and if I am?"... nothing. i'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

and let me ask you (and everyone else) this.

do you think the aoa has a better negotiating position if

a) we have 10% membership

b) we have 55% membership or

c) we have 100% membership

not a tricky question, i think.

when nick and his mates read these forums and see us bickering amongst ourselves, they just laugh and rub their hands together! let's stop providing them comic relief and give them something to worry about instead!

[Liam Gallagher]

Dry your eyes Princess....

Back to the debate then; with your very recently new found enthusiasm for the AOA, can you (or anyone else) tell me what the main point(s) of difference are between PW and ST? Surely ST knew he had to increase the membership to make the AOA more effective.

PS Do you know much about 411A? Suggest you PM me the answer....

[Grivation]

pprune has a really good IGNORE function - and I've just added Liam :ok:

[Saturn]

Not looking back. Looking forward now. ST is gone. Join us or don't. Be part of the problem or the solution. I for one am going to really try and give it a chance if not I will just move on. That simple. We cannot be divided. We have been for some time and it is time now to regroup. We only have ourselves to blame.:ugh:

[ZAGORFLY]

Great Presentation.
Congratulation Mr. President. It was clear and simple like a CBT lesson unmistakably simple and effective.
I would join at once But i'm not in this industry.

good job !

[Liam Gallagher]

PW's message is the same as STs, which was same as MG's, which was the same as ND's, which was same as TP's. The greater the membership numbers, the greater the AOA's effectiveness.... Union 101...

Let us not forget that ND had over 90% membership in 2001; we can all debate how effective the AOA was in 2001, but what is not up for debate is that membership has dropped markedly since.... that's a fact... and the membership numbers dropped because of the POLICIES of the successive Presidents.

Impressive as PWs presentation was; its been done before. To get membership up let us hear some POLICIES.. what are we buying into?

Saturn and CPdude have recently found a new Messiah... and now me and the other 45% not in the union are expected to join with them in this leap of faith (I've always found it's best to look before one leaps). How is the new Messiah different than the old one?

Let's look at PW and ST. They are both seemingly likeable, hardworking, highly intelligent men. Both are "B" Scale Capts and both are ex-British Military Fast Jet. PW has served on the GC for a considerable time under ST and I understand PW was on the Negotiating Committee that reported back to ST in Aug 08 with the proposed deal that included extentions on A scales and what was to become COS 08...yes.. the deal you all liked so much...

To get me and, I suspect a lot of others to join, it's going to take some POLICIES to gain my interest. The prospect of taking on Cx Management knowing the likes of Saturn, CPdude and ACMS are watching my 6 doesn't quite motivate me to join.

[A. Le Rhone]

Perhaps there are some members that could better be done without!

[FlexibleResponse]

Sometimes I reflect on over half a century of life. And sometimes I just reflect!

And I find that I have to give some credit to the other-the-top tree-huggers, anti-war mongers and other extreme communist, socialistic bastards, ratbag extremists that infest the "civilization" in which we find ourselves.

I guess that everyone is entitled to their point of view regardless of how ridiculous some of those views may seem to the average Joe on the street.

Sometimes in considering the extremes and boundaries of ideas helps us discover and arrive at a happy medium in which most of us will find agreement and which serves to perpetuate the advancement of society in general.

So I would tend to accept ANY flight-deck crew-member to join the AOA.

[ACMS]

So Liam it seems you may be a fellow '89 er?

I am, and I'm proud of it.

Been there, got the teashirt and after all the BS of the last 20 years I can proudly say I'm still sticking with the union through thick and thin ( membership )

At the end of the day I would like better T & C's for all of us, we are after all fellow Pilot's aren't we?

How's about with try working together for a change for the common good of all instead of arranging sweet deals for ourselves ( A scale TC extendees on Auss bases for eg )

What the hell have we to lose anyway?

If Cx wanna bust us then so be it.

But don't give up before you begin.

[Liam Gallagher]

"So Liam it seems you may be a fellow '89 er?"

So ACMS it seems you are a fellow who can't be bothered to use the Search function; but hey why would you bother when bigotry and pidgeon-holing is an easy option.

This illustrates the major problem with the AOA; the membership fails to keep themselves informed about what's going on. How many times have you heard guys on the Flightdeck whinging about the volume of emails/updates they receive from the AOA; look how many failed to vote in the first RP vote. Look how many failed to participate in the recent Survey.

As aside, putting "The Management" on your banned list is regrettable. His posts are incredibly well researched, thought provoking, and I imagine only come about through effort on his behalf. I do not see why your blood pressure would rise; it is me (as a non-member) he is attacking. Of all the posters on this forum he is, by a margin, the cheerleader-in-chief for the AOA. I am also pretty confident that should things get tough, his gusset would remain dry, sequins intact and hands very firmly on the pom-poms.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Can you guys get a room or start your own thread, this is very tiring!!!! What started as a good discussion has one again degenerated into personal attacks and dribble. Either we get back on the thread or the moderator should drop this whole thread...come on guys!!!!

[JoeShmoe]

STFU:eek::eek::eek:

[Liam Gallagher]

Sorry guys/girls...my mistake.... The AOA is wonderful... no problems exist.....it's perfectly acceptable to post highly negative AOA comments one day and the next day pick up the pom-poms... my mistake for taking these individuals to task.... how dare I....

Happy?

PS Fenwicksgirl.... you want to debate. What are your new President's policies that separate him from the previous President?

[goathead]

Send me a pin please JF , I havent got one to wear , thru it away during MG'S tenure so I need another.....:)

[Fenwicksgirl]

Liam, no probs, thats fair enough!!
I believe the current Prez shows a "willingness" to tackle the problems we have and has a plan to go about it. First and foremost is recruiting, he makes it clear this is number one and that without good membership we cant expect too much. So on this, JF will be manning the members lounge at CX Mon-Fri to take questions etc. The GC has been given a mandate to tackle the membership numbers (i know this through contacts).
Once the membership numbers are respectable, the GC can then do their job more productively as they then truly represent the pilot body!!!
If the company still chooses not to listen, we have the numbers to apply some "pressure" to make the company see reason
So, anyway, whats your plan??

[Liam Gallagher]

The thing is... it's not my place to come up with a plan.... PW, ably assisted by your good self, Saturn, ACMS are trying to sell the Union to me; I am not trying to sell you anything.

Thanks for regurgitating the video... I did watch it... I was looking for, and hoping that you may point out, where in the video I can identify a point of difference between this "New AOA" (plucked from the title of this thread) and the old AOA's under ST, MG, ND, TP (ie the one's I chose not to join).

You say the "new prez" has a

"willingness" to tackle the problems...

are you saying the old AOA had an "unwillingness" to tackle problems?

You say...

If the company still chooses not to listen, we have the numbers to apply some "pressure" to make the company see reason

By "pressure" are you saying the "new prez" may ask me to go on strike should he get the requisite numbers? Don't you think I might like to know this before I join? Or will he only require me to wear my tie pin?

Don't get me wrong, I can see the value of belonging to an AOA representing 100% of the pilot body. To do that we have know and believe in the policies of the President... on PPrune awhile back there was a thread calling for "Same job... same pay"... where does the "New Prez" stand on that one?

[goathead]

What is the AOA going to do about our overdue payrise ? , I dont have any money left at the end of the month anymore.., inflation is killing me .Anyone else in the same boat?

Bloomberg.com: Asia (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=auW5yDyWokS4&refer=asia)

[ACMS]

I said you "may be a fellow 89 er"

goathead...............unless we improve the membership numbers we wont be getting anything extra, especially with the company having the fuel price "crisis" excuse.

[quadspeed]

It's not exactly rocket science, but some people just don't get it.

There is no them when it comes to the union. It is just us, with me being a part.

What is the AOA going to do about our overdue payriseWhat has the union ever done for me...They're just looking our for themselves.Pathetic excuses for guys too cheap to pitch in, leaving the rest of us to foot the bill.

[Numero Crunchero]

I must have a different view on democracy compared to most posters on Pprune. I don't remember reading prescriptive manifestos on how T+C's could be improved. So Liam et al, me thinketh we need the membership to tell us what THEY are prepared to do. With non-membership at 45% that tells me that 45% are happy with current T+C's and/or are not prepared to do anything about it. 55% are members and whilst many of us have been very unhappy with the way the past has unfolded, I personally feel now is the make or break time for my involvement. If in6-12months time we have 50-60% membership then we should do what IluvPx and everyone else suggests, disband the union and just act like we work on individual contracts for the likes of Asiana.


I have often been accused of being too optimistic - I hope the naysayers are wrong.

Two thoughts I would like to leave you with:
The past defines where you start from, not where you are heading.
CX, its just a job!

endat.

[goathead]

Apart from a "you tube " posting , in which the link was posted on this forum ( god knows how many from cx read this ?? ) , what else are they going to do to boost the membership , place an add in the crews news ?.....

[Liam Gallagher]

Actually, I read PW's manifesto and I recall that he did say something that no other president has said; a point of difference. As a non-member... it was one of those things that made you go hmmmm...

Given that nobody has raised it, I now consider I misread his manifesto (sign of being an aging rockstar). I will try and find a copy and re-read it and perhaps post it up.

My issue on this thread has been the cheerleaders referring to the "New AOA" and their inconsistent views on the AOA and their inability to define what is new. If I have consistently rejected the AOA, like 45% of the pilot body, what is new about this one?

The arguments being used to join may be valid; but are not new... you have to be in to affect change... you reap the rewards; how about bearing the costs.... have been used previously... ND in 2000 springs to mind. Next I imagine.. you are for or against us; however George W might have killed that one.

Good luck with your decision regarding the AOA... I am sure whatever it is, it shall be very well considered.

[goathead]

How is that going to work? , 20 people with 20 different agendas , lets start by getting on board of a couple of blood hungry lawyers..... more litigation and less individual agendas...committees just dont work , mark my words...:ugh:
JF have you sent me a new pin yet ?

[M89speedtouch]

do you think the aoa has a better negotiating position if
a) we have 10% membership
b) we have 55% membership or
c) we have 100% membership
not a tricky question, i think.

You don't need numbers you need balls.
DECs, 49ers, freighters, rostering = no balls.
No contract compliance = no balls.
Growing membership numbers with no balls is pointless.
Why increase the size of the rubber stamp?

[Humber10]

BALLS and real negotiators..... LAWYERS not pilots..... or atleast a team of lawyers with a panel of pilots. Well that's the way it's done elsewhere....:ugh:

[Hellenic aviator]

I agree with H10 - WE REQUIRE REAL NEGOTIATORS AND LAWYERS.

What makes us think just because we fly heavy metal worldwide, we can negotiate with morons such as Kim Jon Phil and his henchmen, and think we are making ANY progression ? I don't call 3% rise progression, I call it an insult.

:ugh:

[Oval3Holer]

Where are the lawyers suing the company for its violations of our contracts? NOWHERE!

What did the 90% membership do after the 49ers? NOTHING!

What did the senior First Officer members of the AOA do when upgrades to Captain were offered to fill the slots vacated by the fired 49ers? TOOK THE UPGRADES!

100% membership in the AOA will NOT cause the company to fear us or force them to provide us better CoS because the company knows that only a very small percentage of the AOA members would ever participate in any kind of legal activity (striking, working to rule, etc.) and that, other than the lawyers which the AOA either doesn't have, or doesn't use, is the ONLY way that a "union" can influence how its members are treated by the company.

It will NEVER happen, so this whole discussion about membership numbers and new leadership is moot...

[quadspeed]

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."

If I was part of Swire or Cathay management, I'd make sure someone was posting in the style of Oval3Holer.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Do any of you guys know how much lawyers and professional negs cost??
At 55% membership for one we cant afford it!!! Besides the AoA does get lawyers involved when needed! Also CX work within the cracks of our contracts, lawyers would not necessarily get us the results that we need in a time frame that would suit us!! What is needed is a strong membership with a willingness to act against the company when required, ie CC!!
Oval man, what can i say, except, what do you offer as an option to what we have. I have always said, the AoA stops the company doing what it wants when it wants, it doesnt necessarily have the power to stop them all the time!!

[Apple Tree Yard]

ANY talk of 'taking on the company' is futile with the present membership numbers. Until we have over 90% membership, we may as well shut up and spend our time developing some sort of coherent strategy. Most of you who 'rationalize' your decision to not be a member tend to be the first ones to whinge and complain about things. If you think you're going to see any improvement to your conditions while not contributing to the only organization that has a hope in hell of dealing with the company...well, you're bigger fools than I already believe you are. The AOA is not perfect...never will be. They are however the only organization that has ANY dealings with the company on an industrial level. Or I suppose you fancy your chances of an 'individual' pay raise if you drop by Nicks office and ask him how the wife and kids are...? Time to grow up boys. Join the AOA, or please, shut it. The first thing I ask someone who is whining now is 'are you an AOA member'. If the answer is no, I tune them out as they don't deserve further consideration. Perhaps a little history lesson: when the membership was almost 100%, we saw raises of 10% + per year. I don't think that will happen again, but we certainly won't see a whiff of such numbers at present membership levels. BTW, Lufthansa just awarded their pilots 9%, with further raises for the next 3 years.....oh, and they nearly all belong to their union.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Oval3holer (actually, you're probably a 4 holer....but won't go there): you sir are a first class idiot. After the 49ers, the membership provided substantial legal and financial help. I don't suppose you had anything to contribute to that effort...? No, thought not.

[Sqwak7700]

Besides the AoA does get lawyers involved when needed! Also CX work within the cracks of our contracts, lawyers would not necessarily get us the results that we need in a time frame that would suit us!!

Ah, I don't remember seeing a clause that excuses some people from a full command course and PCA, yet that is exactly what the company is doing with some pilots. That would be a case in court for unfair treatment, especially being that so many people fail the command course. Please name the last time that lawyers where involved and where on the company's case for violating T&C.

With non-membership at 45% that tells me that 45% are happy with current T+C's and/or are not prepared to do anything about it.

NC you are a wise man and I respect your opinion, but your assumption is flawed. You are begining with the false pretense that Union membership = pilots unhappy with contract; I disagree with that assumption. You're theory would be correct if you had some sort of evidence that showed the AOA has done something to improve the T&C, but such evidence is nowhere to be found.

Even when membership was over 90%, the company still got what they wanted, so how do you believe that getting everybody on board will change anything? Strong leadership has to lead the way with strong actions. Something that members like myself can take to non-members and say, "look at this, look what we achieved". At the moment, the best I have to offer to non-members is that they get this little gold pin to put on their tie.

You show me some actions, something to believe in besides talk, and I will show you membership increases. In my opinion, 45% non-membership says those pilots feel that their money would be wasted. I don't think that they are happy with their T&C, they just don't think paying AOA fees will change that. If you want to change that view you need to show them action. Pilot's are very rational thinkers, and what you are asking from them is sort of like "religious faith".

Up to now, all we have seen from the AOA is cooperation and submission to the company. Every update I receive reads "we will meet soon to discuss", or "we haven't reached an agreement, so this is what will happen". Or even "though you voted, we are gonna give you a chance to change your mind and see things our way".

That mentality, sir, really needs to change.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Squawk7700 you make very valid points that i think most members are feeling. I too am looking for more positive results with this new GC. I do feel however that the AoA gets a very bad wrap for the old question "What have they ever done?" I think most people would hate to think what life in CX would be like with no representation at all. I dont think the AoA is the answer to all our problems but they are the buffer we desperately need!!
90% membership must have been in the old A scale happy pilot days. Nothing against them but, pilots wont lift a finger to help themselves if the job is paying well and generally a good life. How times have changed, look what happened to Dragonair, i dont think CX is far behind. The next upturn in this industry will be interesting to say the least. 80% membership with most pilots very unhappy at work and with the company, with job options elsewhere, well now wouldnt that be interesting???
As i always ask, what are the options we have??? A strong AoA gives us our best protection and i really dont see it as being any harder than that??