Engine Off's in R22's

[Doinmabest]

For those who fly for "Queen and Country" - who is the Guru of EOL's in UK? I am planning a visit in August and September and would like to spend some time with an instructor who is advertised, within the industry, as being 'spot on' with the skills necessary to achieve a safe EOL - not only in an R22 but transferable across the spectrum of Helicopters.

DMB

[oldbeefer]

If you can do a 'safe' EOL in a 22, you can do it in anything! Of the 20 or so types of singles I have flown, the 22 is the one I dislike most for this exercise. You are right to seek advice on who to go to, though. Some QHIs I have flown with (admittedly some time ago) were quite dreadful!

[Flingingwings]

Mike Green at Helicopter Services, Wycombe Air Park. :ok:

[MK10]

Derek Jones @ HJS helicopters if you make it as far as Scotland.
He was head of training when Bristow were at Redhill, is ex military and has a display licence for the 22.
Time in the air with Derek is never wasted!

mk10

[ReverseFlight]

I'm a long way from England but curious to ask if Quentin Smith still works at HeliAir at Denham ? He's the son of the great Mike Smith who owned the same company. Quentin takes the R22 to its limits and you will learn a hell of a lot from him. With a bit of luck you might even get to fly with the old guru himself - a very nice gentleman.

[Bravo73]

ReverseFlight,

FYI, Mike has now retired. (Well, he's certainly sold his share in Heliair but I don't know whether or not you could still persuade him to show you a few EOLs in an R22.)



HTH.

[Draco]

I learned much from flights with both Quentin and his father - but they aren't for the faint-hearted!!

Glenda Wild was a fantastic tutor on these, but no idea what she is up to these days.

[tegwin]

The guy who did my skills test with me....John Lane I believe....owns/runs Heliflight at staverton airport(??)...

Did several full down landings with him....including a full down auto from 500ftwith a 360degree turn (with him very much on the controls I hasten to add!):eek:

Need to practice to get as good as that.....:E

[JCR]

Without....er....blowing my own trumpet...... please feel free to contact either Eric or me at EGLG.

JCR

[Vertical T/O]

Mike Green at Helicopter Services, Wycombe Air Park. :ok: Can't agree more. Brilliant. He makes it look natural.

[TheVelvetGlove]

If it was an auto from 500 AGL starting at zero airspeed with a 360, you were playing with fire.

Rate of descent in that maneuver in an R-22 well exceeds 2000 fpm ROD. Not smart. Had a CFI demonstrate that one a few times with me onboard back when I was clueless, and he almost lost it on the last attempt. Pointless cowboy flying. Not recommended :=

[jemax]

Mike Horrell MFH Helicopters Peterborough Conington, has in excess of 20k hours all piston, countless hours crop spraying in robbo's. Amazing skills without any excessive showboating. Could put it down every time under any circumstances.

[BHenderson]

TheVelvetGlove,

I've also been involved in a 500' agl, zero airspeed, 360 degree auto to the ground. Granted it was in a H300, but I think this is a valid manoeuver for photo flight pilots and the emergency services to practice. Was the instructor practicing his skills for this reason or was it true risk taking?

The guys at Helicopter Services have excellent reputations.

[TheVelvetGlove]

True risk taking when it was demonstrated to me.... I admit that there is some value in the maneuver, but it has little value when demonstrated to a pre-private pilot....

[darrenphughes]

Teaching 500agl 360 full down to pre-private pilot. Talk about jumping the gun!!!

[ReverseFlight]

Bravo73, I haven't spoken to Mike Smith for a long time and last time when I met him he was on the verge of retirement age although he still preferred to continue flying. I wonder what he's doing these days.

[tegwin]

Just to clarify....the 500ft with 360 turn was initiated at 50kts to demonstrate an engine off right where you dont want one on an aproach....

Deffinately not a cowboy trick and if anything one of the most usefull experiences of my flying career to date......It was more of a demonstration rather than a lesson!!

[Dragpin]

Mike Green has a wealth of knowledge and experience with EOL's on all types of single engine helicopters. If your flying into any of the London Airports, he would one of the closest.

He is at Wycombe Air Park most weeks.

01494 513166

[bladegrabber]

Roy Bayliss at Sterling (Norwich) taught me a lot about EOL's and how to do them with confidence

[skypest]

John Lane performed a 720 degree full down auto from 700 feet on the way back from my trto skills test which was pretty impressive. How he kept up with the RRPM I don't know.

How do you judge The best EOL? Is the best the safest and the most accurate? Or the most show offish?

Anyone who has done A few thousand on these is going to be pretty good I reckon.

[tegwin]

How do you judge The best EOL?

Um....Isnt it simply a landing which all the ocupants can walk away from:eek:

[SEL]

I have flown with both Mike Green and Jon Lane and would heartily recommend them both. I would also add that Jon Lane is not a risk taker but a very measured and professional pilot.

I'm sure there are a lot of good FI's out there who still do them, see the names mentioned in addition to the more famous ones. As for whether you should do EOL's in the R22, I think the answer has to be yes. A student/pilot doesn't want their first full down auto to be for real.

Draco, I would also vote for Glenda but the last I heard, she was in sunny Hawaii. Obviously the draw of the Midlands wasn't quite enough...

[Paul Cantrell]

As for whether you should do EOL's in the R22, I think the answer has to be yes. A student/pilot doesn't want their first full down auto to be for real.

As an active FI in the States, I have to agree. I think a little before solo a student should be shown what a full down looks like in the R22 (or any helicopter) so that if they should have to autorotate they understand what the difference is between a full down and a power recovery.

Full down autos in the R22 are easy to do as long as you are willing to take some slide. Where people start thumping them down is when they try to get really short ground slides.

[ReverseFlight]

Paul, my understanding is that FAA CPL(H)s are not required to do full downs unless they get to CFI training.

In Australia, you will find full downs are a syllabus requirement for CPL(H)s and must be demonstrated by the student during his flight test. I have visited several of the top helicopter schools in this country and can confirm it does form part of their CPL(H) training.

Another major difference is that while our FAA counterparts normally land on concrete runways with long slides, the Australian pilot mostly lands on grass with very little forward movement after touchdown. This is achieved by holding off the flare until the moment you start to sink, checking up on the collective to load up the rotor, levelling ship and then full up collective to cushion landing. Most if not all the forward movement would have dissipated by touchdown, if done properly.

[the beater]

I often wonder just why most instructors with the option prefer to carry out EOLs to a grass surface. The robinson landing gear is designed to deal with downward force by allowing the landing gear to spread, relying on the cross tubes' flex to absorb this energy. The ideal surface, therefore, would be something hard and smooth. Concrete or tarmac is ideal. No chance of digging in and nosing over, and a surface that allows the landing gear to articulate in the way that it's designed. I'd rather pay for a new cross tube than a new tail boom.
And the sparks look amazing at night.
Allegedly.;)

[KenDoddsDadsDogsDied]

Mike Horrell is your man. Nothing flashy, definately no drama, measured, tidy and totally controlled. Always boosted my confidence after a few with him. Based at Conington Peterborough.

[VfrpilotPB/2]

I may be sticking my neck out a little here but, but if you are flying a Helicopter you may need to cope one day with silence, if you have not felt what is feels and sounds like, how will you cope with it, when I was doing my training at EGNH (UK), I was shown the full auto to skidding in the grass three times, twice in the R22 and once on the R44, and then it was shown how different it is in speed and feel in the B206, so in total the Cfi's did it four times with me, then whilst under their eagle eye and with their hands following everything I was doing I carried out two full EOLs in the 22 and one in the 44.

Whilst I admit to feeling nervous when I was asked to perform this it really gave me a boost in the overall feelings I had in my own ability to try and be a good pilot and made me feel that I could look after myself any pax and the Heli if the Donk stopped.

During the same period I was shown on several occasions what an engine failure in the hover was like again all the way down to the grass, along with the same on the B206.

Now I dont think my instructors were trying to enter the " Watch This" competition, in fact after I had been awarded my license I felt I owed such a lot to the instructors( one Lady, one keen young man, and a soon to be North Sea Puma man) who had been instrumental in teaching me and impressing me with the knowledge to join the small band of Pilots who enjoy flying Helicopters, like many others I understand fear, it is this basic feeling that stops me from ever taking risks. Although leaving the ground under mechanical means always carries a risk with it, I am sure all of you will understand what I mean.

My regards

Peter R-B
Vfr

[Helinut]

Tis a considerable while since I did ab-initio instruction, but I would be interested to know whether VFR's experience is typical of what happens these days [in the UK]. When I learnt and when I instructed ab-initio on R22s pretty much every sortie finished with an EOL, if there was a decent wind. Is that no longer true?

The grass v. hard surface thing seems to be pretty much a "which side of the Atlantic" are we kind of thing. The disdavantage to EOLs on tarmac/concrete is that you wear out shoes and damage skids. I believe that places like the Bell factory fit special extended shoes. You certainly learn to keep it straight on grass or suffer the consequences.

I have over 2000 hours in an R22, most of it instructing, but getting on 10 years ago. This experience counts for nothing re: EOLs. Currency is the key IMHO.

[Bootneck]

I'm certain somebody must have pictures of the Bristow 22 with upward swept skids. :E No names necessary, just the piccies. :E

[ReverseFlight]

beater, I agree it is no big deal to replace skid shoes and in fact it is a normal recurrent expenditure for all FAA helicopter schools in the course of auto training.

I think the Aussie mentality is that if you are unlucky enough to have an engine failure over any surface which is not a concrete runway, you can have a fair crack at it if you've been trained to auto onto grass. And there's a lot of grass out here.

[Paul Cantrell]

Paul, my understanding is that FAA CPL(H)s are not required to do full downs unless they get to CFI training.


This is true, but what I was saying is that you should demonstrate a few to students before they solo so that they can see how a touchdown is different from a power recovery.

In Australia, you will find full downs are a syllabus requirement for CPL(H)s and must be demonstrated by the student during his flight test. I have visited several of the top helicopter schools in this country and can confirm it does form part of their CPL(H) training.

I personally think it should be required for the CPL is the USA as well. It's crazy to me to think that a commercial pilot should not be able to land after an engine failure.

Another major difference is that while our FAA counterparts normally land on concrete runways with long slides, the Australian pilot mostly lands on grass with very little forward movement after touchdown.

It depends on the school, but I agree that the majority of USA schools teach to pavement. The school I learned at and first taught at taught to the turf, and a friend's school here in Boston taught to the turf. I like to do both: the pavement at first because it is more forgiving, and then graduate to turf as the pilot in training gains experience because in real life an off airport landing is typically not going to be to pavement.

[topendtorque]

the Australian pilot mostly lands on grass


If he is lucky I suggest.

Given that we are having the biggest mother of all droughts, most cities have been experiencing class six water restrictions, there ain't a lotta grass to be had.
Perhaps practising zero, zero's onto some sandy Beach would be a good idea.:suspect:

[Paul Cantrell]

I was instructing in an Enstrom at one airport and a guy walked up and mentioned that he had flown in that particular Enstrom with a rather famous local radio station traffic reporter.

He described the flight he had and how much he enjoyed it, and how Joe had done an autorotation at the end of the flight. Feeling pretty good about my own abilities in autorotating I just nodded.

He then mentioned that at the bottom of the autorotation, they landed on the dolly (is that what you call it in UK/OZ? helicopter platform on wheels?).

In any case, I asked him: did Joe bring the power back in, and then hover to a landing on the dolly?

Nope - full down auto right to a landing on the dolly!

There were enough other stories about Joe (including his over dozen engine failures over the years) that I tend to believe the story...

[ReverseFlight]

Paul, I remember when I learnt my PPL(H), I was sent solo cross-country having only done power recovery autos. The thought still haunts me.

I only started doing full touchdowns to grass at CPL(H) level. I have never done one to pavement but I see the logic in building up confidence before going on grass.

As you probably know, the pavement touchdown is used extensively in Tim Tucker's R22 training video. I get the feeling that he wants the FAA to do it that way.

[cyclic phenomenon]

Another recommendation for Mike Horrell at Conington. Completely drama-free full-down autos and a very modest, decent guy with 40 years in piston-engined helicopters. A great teacher, and hard to find somebody with more hours on the 22.

[Doinmabest]

Thank you all for your input. As usual this topic tends to raise a deal of interest. Your help with pointing out the instructors to visit, leads to Mike Green, Jon Lane, Mike Horell and Derek Jones.

Are their mobile numbers and email addresses public knowledge? If not please contact me by email.

Some Background – (an ex RAN beefer) I have over 18k hrs helo, with >14k instructing in R22s. I teach all emergencies, and EOLs would be 80% of my autos. Auto can be cruise, after T/O, finals, low level 20’ or 500’ AGL hover (straight ahead not 360). Typically a student will do in excess of 30 engine off landings themselves by the end of their licence in order to develop their competence and confidence. All are given unannounced and touch wood – no bent airframes to date. I believe it is all a matter of RATE and ENERGY control.

I am looking forward to comparing notes and skills.
DMB

[topendtorque]

Doinmabest

hey man, you wouldn't happen to have a surname commencing with T would you?
and a previous penchant for negative G maneuvres?
just wondering if I might have met you in a bad dream somewhere.
tet

[miket_68]

Had a test flight with him earlier this week.

Took the scare factor out of auto entry and then just a few feet from the ground I realised we were doing a full landing.

Cant see what all the fuss is about, maybe it was more him than me on the controls but is sure felt VERY safe.

I WILL be doing some more with him the the future.

[Simonta]

Tis sad to hear that Mike has retired but, he deserves it!

I was lucky enough to do my PPL at Fast when Mike was the CFI there. Fantastic instructor and flyer, never left me with anything other than confidence and admiration. Most of my instruction was from Tom Saunderson but I took a handful of lessons, and my test with Mike.

He broke EOLs up into 4 phases for me which worked a champ. As he said, get it into auto in the first place and make at least a reasonable show of the flare and you won't die. For the last bit, he described it as a quick stop followed by an engine failure in the hover. That did it for me and on the few occassions after that I have taken it to the ground, it all seemed fraught but doable.

Mike also pretty much insisted that every lesson included EOLs and we usually finished a trip with one to the field, probably about 50/50 power recovery vs putting it down. I think I did 3 or 4 to the ground, always with Mike closely following through. Was never quite sure how much of a successful landing was down to me or Mike :)

He did do a real one at least once. He was giving an experience flight to a lady, I think in January with lots of moisture and nice and cold. He pulled in carb heat on the downwind and the knob came off in his hand! He figured that there was a high risk of a stoppage if he lowered collective so decided to come in over the field high and do an auto. Sure enough, when he dumped the lever, the donkey went on strike and he plonked it down for a 0/0 with no drama. I assume that the lady didnt know anything was wrong but often wondered what she thought when the blades stopped whirling and it all went quiet....

I reckon if anyone could get it down, Mike could whatever the scenario. Of course, the reason for this is yes, he's a brilliant flyer, but perhaps more importantly, he never put the ship somewhere he couldn't get out of if it all went belly up..

Cheers to you Mike. Happy retirement and thanks for everything you gave me. Not flying at the moment, cash flow doesn't allow, but do get the odd trip now and then...

Simon T. Thruxton.

[Flingingwings]

Simon,

Are you sure Mike G has retired????? My understanding was he 'retired' from Thruxton as opposed to ACTUALLY taking retirement ;)

Last saw Mike at Wycombe and he's still listed as one of their pilots on the Helicopter Services website :ok:

FW

[Bravo73]

FYI, Simon, it's Mike Smith who has retired.

[ekardj]

Agree that you can't get better than Mike Horrell. I was quite happy to drive 50 miles up A1 for instruction for PPL a couple of years ago. Great pilot and instructor and great fun as well. Also you get the benefit of a very friendly atmosphere at Conington airfield where fixed wing and rotor pilots mix well (see latest pilot mag). When you have had enough of EOLs then I recommend doing his spray course up in the Derbyshire peak district where you can really hone your skills.

J D

[Doinmabest]

Gentlemen
I thank you for maintaining the discussion on an intriguing topic. However my arrival in UK is drawing nie and I have only been given Mike Horrel's contact details.

Is anyone current on the emails of Jon Lane, Mike Green or Derek Jones?

And
Topendtorque

You could be right on the ID. I am still out there on the edge hoping to instil some respect into the newbies.

Suprises me as time goes by and old standards are forgotten that the helicopter never forgets. It's roll in life is to crash. We, the gullible ones, just chose to spend our lives preventing it. Survival must by default be a measure of success!!

Kind regards
Chris Townsend
Just DOINMABEST

[Pandalet]

Mike Green can be contacted through Helicopter Services: Helicopter training Buckinghamshire and helicopter tours (http://www.helicopterservices.co.uk/maininfo.htm)

Yell if you fancy a beer and war stories audience while you're here :ok: