How did Heathrow used to look ?

[diddy1234]

I was wondering if anyone had old plans of Heathrow (or even old pictures).

I was wondering how many runways were active when Heathrow first opened and how long each runway was (I know that the main two runways have been extended).

When was the tunnel made (For car access) ?

What was present before T5 ?

Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't cover much early history of Heathrow.

Thanks in advance.

RD

[treadigraph]

Original runway layout was a "Star of David" with parallel runways e/w, ne/sw and nw/se. There was originally a plan to add an additional runway north of the Bath Road, just about where BAA would currently like to build one!

Someone (Chevvron?) included an excellent link to a site plan from about 1945 a while back.

The T5 site was originally the Perry Oaks Sewage Farm. My company was part of the civil engineering team for T5 and my geotechnical colleagues helped prepare the site ready for construction, including remediation of the land! One of them does a good presentation on the subject.

Also, look back a few weeks to the Varsity thread - there was a cracking aerial shot of Heathrow in the 50s taken by one of our fellow forumites from a Varsity!

[chevvron]

Nah wasn't me, but I remember the tunnel was put in about '54 or '55. My parents used to take me to 'London Airport' by bus from our home in South Bucks during school holidays (Greenline [713?]from Chesham to Uxbridge then red LT bus, returning by green LT bus to Slough then the 353 back to Chesham). In the early days before the tunnel we got off the bus on the Bath Road and would walk across a taxiway to get to the public enclosure; later we walked though the tunnel (it was allowed in the early days but not now).
The tunnel was I believe constructed using the 'cut and cover' method rather than by boring; I think there was an airborne illustration in the 'Eagle Book of Aircraft' c1956.

[treadigraph]

Wasn't there a "pedestrian" tunnel parallel to the northern tunnel? I'm sure I rode me pushbike through it twenty something years ago! Has it been closed?

[The SSK]

This from an immediately pre-war map (sorry for the poor quality)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/TheSSK/LHRmap.jpg

[WHBM]

The original plan was the 6 star-shaped runways on the present site, and another three proposed north of the A4, which of course were never built. The 6 runways was not completed for some years, followed shortly afterwards by starting to close them off for central area buildings, so the full set didn't last long.

The tunnels opened in 1955 along with T2 (then the Queens Building) and were originally the current dual carriageway, plus the two small tunnels either side now used for cars (provided you don't have a big roofrack), but one was originally for pedestrians and the other for bicycles. T3 (then the Oceanic Building) opened in 1962. Until these openings the relevant flights (European and Intercontinental respectively) operated from the north side, strung out along the A4.

[S'land]

The attached shows work on "London Airport" in 1949.
YouTube - London Airport (1949) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-svhmFd214)

Like Chevvron I remember taking a similar route to Heathrow, but from Amersham, not Chesham. This was in about 1963 - 1964. I used to go with my father as my mother and sister were not interested in aircraft. I used to use a "Coronet 4/4" camera using 120 black and white film to take photographs. It was a very simple camera that I had had since I was seven years old (Christmas present). All the photographs were destroyed in some floods at my sister's house about ten years ago.:(

[chevvron]

Queens Building was the original central area terminal, but I don't think it was ever called Terminal 2; T1 was built to the north of it then T2 to the south, then QB became airline offices, crew reporting and flight clearance/AIS etc. There is a film occasionally shown on TV called 'Out of the Clouds' (starring the formidable James Robertson Justice as the captain of a BOAC Stratocruiser) which I believe depicts the interior of QB.
The original pedestrian tunnel which we used to walk through was the one now used for cars/taxis to the east of the 'main' tunnels.
S'land, you appear to be about the same age as me; I went to Chesham Tech from '60 to '67.

[India Four Two]

A very nice aerial photo taken in June 1956, from the recent Varsity thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/aviation-history-nostalgia/333015-vickers-varsity-2.html#post4213152

I've just noticed on The SSK's map, that pubs are listed very prominently :ok:

[treadigraph]

I've just noticed on The SSK's map, that pubs are listed very prominently

I noticed so much, it took me a while to realise that there was no airport, just a piddly little grass airfield... :}

[PaperTiger]

Weren't there seven runways ?
2 x 09/27, 2 x 05/23 and 3 x 14/32.

[WHBM]

starring the formidable James Robertson Justice as the captain of a BOAC StratocruiserModelled on BOAC Captain O. P. Jones I believe.

[The SSK]

Queens Building was the original central area terminal, but I don't think it was ever called Terminal 2; T1 was built to the north of it then T2 to the south, then QB became airline offices, crew reporting and flight clearance/AIS etc.

When I started with BOAC in 67 there were two terminals, Europa which became T2 and Oceanic which became T3 departures. The Queens Building was the BEA ops centre, also the entrance to the roof gardens which stretched across T2 and to the 'corner' where you could get a view of the nearer T3 stands but not the further ones. The next central area buildings were I guess the BOAC cargocentre just to the west of the tunnel entrance - I was working there by late 68 - then T1 which probably opened in 69 (at which point the other 2 were renamed/numbered) and also the T3 arrivals building, around the same time.

[Swedish Steve]

Weren't there seven runways ?
2 x 09/27, 2 x 05/23 and 3 x 14/32.

Yes but not all at once.
According to my Ian Allen London's Airports which was published about 1959
The RAF built 3 runways, an inverted triangle. A second triangle was imposed on top of this and during this work the original 32L was decommissioned and a new 32L built. The original 32L passed through what is now the T2 car park. By 1959 32R was not in use leaving 5 runways.
At this time the only passenger building in the central area was called the Short Haul Building, or the Nbr 2 passenger building (now T2). The new long haul building was under construction and was to be called the Long haul building or the Nbr 3 passenger building.
The Queens Building was never a Terminal, although there were two jetties leading to four gates on its airside, pax walked there from T2. There were three more jetties leading to six ground level gates on T2.

I used to cycle to LAP in 1963, cycling through the tunnel to the Central Area. Cycling was later banned, and a special bus was put on which carried bikes in racks at the back from the Northside area.

[S'land]

Chevvron;
I lived in Holmer Green from 1963 until uni took me away. I used to bike around the Chesham, LEY Hill, Latimer area a lot.

[pax britanica]

I liked the old map of the Heathrow area. I grew up in Stanwell 1957-1973 and lived 100yds from the prominantly featured Wheatsheaf PH. Not sure why thats highlighted as there were several pubs in Stanwell and Wheatsheaf was the smallest.

Used to ride bke from there to Cains Lane Bedfont which is shown on the map on the Heathrow side of the A 30 but at that time only the section east of the a30 survived. A great spotting spot and a popular one. If on Easterlies a much nicer place to watch the world go by was in Stanwell between the longford river and the duke of northumberlands canal which were diverted from the courses shown on the map to run parallel to the southern perimeter road which ran throw open countryside that was the SW corner of LHR down by the 10R as it was hold and 'block 79' where 10L originally started before the extension .
Happy days really quite a rural area in those days pre cargo village.

Oddly enough hardly ever went to the central area- a long long way round ona bike or a really poor bus service to Hounslow and thena connection to the north side and then another connection to the central area.

As to the runways 23R was often used for take offs witha strong SW wind -not uncommon and the flight path was just to the west of my house-some fantastic views as it was not ovr long and the big props didnt climb too quickly- exhausts flaming in the evening sky looked very dramatic. 08L also used quite a bit for landings and also great views .
Can remember 08r being used for take offs- smultaneous with 10R .

The SE -NW runways however seemed to hardly ever be used and were the first to disappear. I do remeber seeing a few landings on the more easterly one -perhaps around 1961 but never saw any landings from the NW.

So from my recollection LHR may have had six runways but it very seldom used more than 4 ( the two 10/28s and the 05/23 pairing.

I later flew numerable times from LHR but only once used anthing other than the main pair and that was returning from my honeymoon in a freezing March 1977 where our Trident 3 landed on 05R.

Bit of a ramble but for me a very interesting thread and one to reflect on just how much that little part of England changed in my life-the Wheatsheaf is still there though!
PB

[overfly]

Ach, we're all of an age, I was at Windsor GS from 61 to 68; used to cycle or hitch to LAP, remember the tunnels, pretty sure both side tunnels had a cycle way and a raised fenced footpath to one side. My memory of the terminals agrees with SSK; when I started with BEA in late 68 shorthaul cargo was still in Hangars 7 & 8 near Hatton Cross. Cargocentre opened in what, 71?

[Warmtoast]

Heathrow - 1950's

Reference has been made earlier to my 1956 photo of Heathrow which I have now copied here:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Bovingdon/BovingdonRadarCalibrationVarsity-LA.jpg

This shows the layout in June 1956 taken from 10,000ft looking east. The newly completed Europa Building, later Terminal 2 is in the centre island, whilst alongside it the Oceanic Terminal; later Terminal 3 is under construction. In 1956 until at least 1960 transatlantic traffic departed from the North Terminal alongside the A4. (I saw a friend off who flew PanAm to Baltimore from the north terminal in early 1960).

The Bath Road (A4) shows up on the left as the dark strip running top to bottom parallel with the north main taxiway & runway. In 1956 the M4 was but a gleam in the planner’s eye - the London bit of the M4 westwards opened nine years later in 1965.
On the right the A30 (the lighter of the two darkish strips) wends its way through the (then) rural delights of Middlesex towards Hounslow and London. Straight ahead and beyond the airfield boundary, just beneath the cloud line the A312 can be seen running left to right.

The pre-war map in post # 5 shows the adjacent roads layout.

Three years earlier on 8th October 1953 I visited London Heathrow to watch the start of the London to Christchurch (New Zealand) air race and took the following photo which shows one of the competitors, the first licence-built Royal Australian Air Force Canberra serial number A84-201.
Interestingly the background shows the girders for the new ‘Europa Building’, which was actually the first true terminal building and was opened by the Queen two years later in 1955. The higher girders outline what I think is the ATC control tower under construction.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/NZAirRaceCanberra2.jpg

[phil gollin]

Well - Heathrow used to look like this (well sort of) :-

http://www.framearch.co.uk/projects/T5/press_images.html

http://news.wessexarch.co.uk/2007/05/30/archaeology-at-heathrow-terminal-5/

http://www.framearch.co.uk/t5/

The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map: (http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=3827)

The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map: Heathrow's archaeology, including Stanwell Cursus is finally announced (http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146411025)

[mustpost]

This might be of interest - while reseaching RAF St Mawgan, I came across this which gives an indication of what the 'Very Heavy Transport Stations' control tower at Heathrow would have looked like...
RAF St Mawgan airfield (http://www.controltowers.co.uk/S/St_Mawgan.htm)

[Duckbutt]

And from the 'What Aerodrome' thread (p169) what it actually did look like:


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/ForWhichAirfield.jpg

Talking of the tunnels, as a schoolkid I often went spotting at Heathrow around 1960 and I can confirm what Overfly said that both of the two smaller tunnels did have raised walkways next to a railed off cycle track. I also recall that looking north from the Central area, just to the left of the main tunnels there was a tunnel stub as if boring had started but abandoned. Anyone know what the original plan was?

[Swedish Steve]

just to the left of the main tunnels there was a tunnel stub as if boring had started but abandoned. Anyone know what the original plan was?
There used to be tunnels from the terminals out to the outer stands before any piers were built. I remember busses going through these tunnels. They were each side of the main tunnels.

[Duckbutt]

Thanks for that Steve.

[WHBM]

Here's an oddball sidetrack for those who remember the somewhat strange looking custom-built road coaches that BEA used from Heathrow to Central London, a fleet of 65 in all. They were owned by BEA but operated for them under contract by London Transport. They came along in 1953 and lasted until 1966, so all through the period being discussed here, and I get the feeling that several will recall them. I do from the end of their time.

IAN'S BUS STOP: The LONDON TRANSPORT RFs (http://www.countrybus.org.uk/rf/RF6.htm)

One of their features was they had on the front indications of destination, able to be wound round like any other bus, but the points listed were all the BEA destinations, as they were operated one bus per specific flight rather than a general purpose regular service. You checked in at the town terminal, and your baggage travelled with you in the very large underfloor compartment of your bus. So you would see buses to "Milan" or "Stockholm" headed down Cromwell Road in Kensington alongside the regular 74 to Putney ! As the passengers were seated very high up they could look down, appropriately haughtily no doubt, on the hoi polloi on the pavement below.

It was only when reading the article I realised they always had semaphore direction indicators (well, normal for road vehicles in 1953 I suppose) which must have been more than a bit anachronistic once the M4 opened !

[diddy1234]

Thanks The SSK for posting the map. I always wondered where London Air Park was.

The map answers a few questions I had.

I like the pictures that have also been posted.

It would appear from the old pictures (I could be wrong) but the north East - West runway was in use first with some sort of terminal to the north of the runway.

If I use a recent map (like flash earth) I can see various taxi ways running North of the runway up to the edge of the airfield now where northern perimeter road is, it would appear that a terminal existed there.
location :-

Flash Earth ...satellite and aerial imagery of the Earth in Flash (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=51.47867&lon=-0.464795&z=15.7&r=0&src=msl)

Comparing the previously posted pictures it would also become apprent of the extension to the runways as well (extended further west).

If I am wrong then please correct me.

RD

[WHBM]

Diddy :

The area on the northern edge of the airfield you describe is that known as "Northside". This was the original terminal area from the day Heathrow opened, and they were still all in tents, then operators steadily moved over to the Central Area until the intercontinental operators were last to move out to the Oceanic Building (now T3) in 1961. Others can correct me but I believe most of the terminal buildings at Northside were wooden/temporary structures.

The area nowadays is occupied to a considerable extent by the large Pink Elephant car park. The original rough concrete surface of the ramp is still in use there for car parking, and if you walk around and look closely you can identify where aerodrome light fittings etc have been removed.

[avionic type]

FROM WHAT I CAN REMEMBER THE LUGGAGE WAS CARRIED IN TRAILERS TOWED BEHIND THE BUS CANNOT REMEMBER IF ANY WAS CARRIED UNDER THE BUS.:bored:

[The SSK]

There was still some freight activity on the Northside ramp in the late 1960s, I recall the N-reg C46s that Lufthansa used to use and I think I recall a Lufthansa Connie over there.

[chevvron]

The VIP suite was northside too until at least 1970; I was at the LATCC radar unit in 1970 when Nixon departed from this 'terminal'; his secret service helicopters must have caused havoc the way they were just circling around the north side.

[avionic type]

There used to be a pub in Hatton RD about where the road crossing the taxi way to TBJ is now as a 16/17 year old and the engineers who worked in hangers 2,3,4,[now freight sheds ]for B.O.A.C. sometimes went there for a small beer and eat our sandwiches at luch time [very cool we had an hour for lunch in those days]this was in 1947 long before "The Kremlin" TBA was built I think it was pulled down to make way the old 5and 6 Argonaut hangers.

[goudie]

I travelled on the BEA bus from Waterloo to LHR
in '56/57.
Flew in a BEA Dakota to Koln/Bonn airport, which then, was also RAF Wahn (where I was stationed). Most convenient. £11.00 return, Forces concession!

[kala87]

This is an interesting thread. Here's my memories of "LAP" in the 50's and 60's. My earliest recollection is on 30/09/58 when we flew in a KLM Viscount 803 from LAP northside to Amsterdam. I remember lots of aircraft parked very close together on northside, at around 0800 -0845. Looking at old photos of this area, it appears that in fact only a limited area was used for aircraft parking, out of the total area available between runway 28R/10L and the Bath Road, and aircraft were indeed parked very close, sometimes "double parked" one behind the other. Can someone explain if this was so, and why more stands were not provided. Also, why did KLM continue to use the northside area when the central terminal area was available from 1955 onwards?

Another question: Why was T3/Oceanic Terminal so long in being built, when the facilities at northside were obviously so antiquated and cramped. Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Paris Orly all had far more modern terminals for their long-haul passengers during the 1950's. The northside "terminal" (more like a temporary holiday camp structure) and aircraft parking must have been very cramped by 1961-62, when 707's and DC8's were regularly using northside before T3 was opened in 1962.

I too use to ride my bike through the tunnel in 1965 -1966. Setting out from our home in Hertfordshire, the ride would take about 3 hours, via St.Albans, Watford and Uxbridge, often with a bulky VHF radio in the saddlebag as well. We would arrive at LAP at around 0830, check out any ineresting freighters parked on northside (Capitol C46's, United Arab and Trans-Med. DC6's were common sights), watch some noisy departures if 28R was being used, then cycle through the tunnel for a day's aircraft spotting.

Regarding Runways 23/05, I can remember a British United cargo DC6A landing on 05L in 1965, and a Thai 747 landing on Rwy 23 as late as 1988.

Yes, night departures in piston-engined days could be spectacular. Super Connies and DC7's semed to provide the best pyrotechnics, probably due to the very high temperatures generated by the turbos in the Wright R3350 radials at take-off and METO power settings.

Happy days indeed.

[gruntie]

FROM WHAT I CAN REMEMBER THE LUGGAGE WAS CARRIED IN TRAILERS TOWED BEHIND THE BUS

Ah yes, Routemasters (standard length, front entrance, high-ratio diff....) with trailers. They followed on from the RF's.
Have a look at Ian's home page and click on "RMA". Ian's Bus Stop (http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.smith/buses/index.htm)

Aviation History and Nostalgia is bad enough. Combine that with London Bus History and Nostalgia and I'm in for a few sleepless nights. Oh, Nurse.......

[Warmtoast]

Just remembered I have an earlier photo of Heathrow as it looked in 1949/50.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Heathrowc19502.jpg


It's all a bit of a jumble, but the photo appears to have been taken looking west with the Bath Road (A4) on the right together with the original North Terminal alongside. Runways appear very short and I assume this is as a result of foreshortening in the image.

[Fokkerwokker]

Set off, as a 5-6 year old for Dar-es-Salaam from the northside in the early 50s. Aircraft was a BOAC HP81 Hermes named either Hestia or Heron. Anyone got a fleet list that matches names with registrations?

Arrived back a couple of years later on an Argonaut. Made further departures on a wonderful mix of more Argonauts/Stratocruisers and Britannia 102s. That was in the days when the BOAC Junior Jet Club had seniority numbers! :ok:

Can't actually recall if I made a departure from central area. Must dig out JJC logbook and check dates.

Would be nice to see some northside pics published.

FW

PS. I recall landing my Lockheed Trimoth on RW23 in a number of gales with a southerly component in them. Aaaaah the good old days!

[WHBM]

Aircraft was a BOAC HP81 Hermes named either Hestia or Heron. Anyone got a fleet list that matches names with registrations?
Too easy for us lot :)

Heron = G-ALDO. New July 1950, sold to Airwork September 1957.
Hestia = G-ALDT. New September 1950, sold to Skyways February 1955.

[Fokkerwokker]

WHBM

You are far too quick for me.

Many ta's!!:D

FW

[Warmtoast]

Would be nice to see some northside pics published

Well this is what you'd see as you entered northside.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Heathrowc1950.jpg

[beamender99]

FROM WHAT I CAN REMEMBER THE LUGGAGE WAS CARRIED IN TRAILERS TOWED BEHIND THE BUS


The original BEA buses were as shown near the bottom
Google Image Result for http://www.countrybus.org.uk/rf/RF50/366zBEA.jpg (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.countrybus.org.uk/rf/RF50/366zBEA.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.countrybus.org.uk/rf/RF50/RF50.htm&h=366&w=609&sz=39&hl=en&start=94&sig2=Lsz7AbW6_7QzBW4ftBwM3g&tbnid=U47U5HpNAon-rM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=136&ei=hOiQSJjkIIiC0QTimPShBg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbea%2Bbus%26start%3D90%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26 hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

THe baggage was carried at the rear.

The later BEA buses were Routemasters with a special dispensation to have a trailer.

Airport Buses (http://www.yellins.com/transporthistory/Bus/airport.htm)

The BEA buses ran from WLAT ( West London Air Terminal) in the Cromwell Road ( Now a Sainsbury's store) but the vehicle ramps are still there.
Check in was upstairs and boarding was down the stairs to the appropriate gate where the bus was boarded.

BOAC buses ran from The Victoria Air Terminal by Victoria railway station.

[beamender99]

An even older BEA bus ( assume it must be prior to 1953)

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3277232.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=2C48553CC6AAB74C47A94FBA036E68FBA55A1E4F32AD3138

More views of the intermediate bus 1953 -1966

BEA RFW on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/2581627426/)

Google Image Result for http://www.lbpt.org/vehicles/bea.jpg (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lbpt.org/vehicles/bea.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lbpt.org/bea.html&h=225&w=300&sz=17&hl=en&start=42&sig2=-CCl6w1HL2OxdxGZVY7Emg&tbnid=mW1rFqYZ_E6pLM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&ei=vQKRSPTYO6eu0gS3nYykBg&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522west%2Blondon%2Bair%2Bterminal%2522%26star t%3D36%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

[India Four Two]

This is what I love about PPRuNe - you never know where the thread is going to go.

Check in was upstairs and boarding was down the stairs to the appropriate gate where the bus was boarded.


How long before the flight time, did the bus depart and what happened when the bus arrived at Heathrow? Did it drive straight to the aircraft?

[India Four Two]

I was having trouble visualising the current airport layout on The SSK's map, so I made an approximate overlay, from a modern map.

It is hard to believe there was a complete grass aerodrome between the central area and T4:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/HeathrowMap.jpg

[gas path]

The SSK
Are you sure the map is immediately prewar? It shows the Colnbrook bypass and I thought that wasn't built until much later:confused:
The bypass was 3 lanes, one each way and a take your chance suicide lane in the centre:eek:
It shows the 'Punchbowl' pub, but not possibly the most famous of them all the 'Ostrich' located in Colnbrook high street.

[The SSK]

Found my answer in a previous thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/aviation-history-nostalgia/232271-airfield-clues-age-map.html).

Seems this is a 1940 revision of a prewar map, the roads lined in red, like the Colnbrook bypass and the GWR Extension, were additions since the earlier version.

[WHBM]

A bus thread .... This is what I love about PPRuNe - you never know where the thread is going to go
You wait - before long it will be "Tugs that used to push me back ....." :)

[S'land]

You wait - before long it will be "Tugs that used to push me back ....."

Quite right too. it is all avation nostalgia and history.

[olympus]

A few pics at LHR taken by me in 1958. Taken with a Brownie 127 so quality not the best!

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg150/gwpcrescue/scan0007.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg150/gwpcrescue/scan0006.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg150/gwpcrescue/scan0004.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg150/gwpcrescue/scan0003.jpg

[lgwpave]

for anyone who wants to see old maps, I have found an interesting site at :

www.ponies.me.uk (http://www.ponies.me.uk)

This is a very clever site where someone has scanned in OS maps from the 1920/30/40s and correctly positioned them. You can zoom in to nearly anywhere in the country.

The clever bit is the "Transparency Slider" at the bottom via which you can overlay the current road layout.

The Heathrow area does show "Heathrow Aerodrome", but not much else !!

Try it.

[shaky]

A film showing the early days of Heathrow can be found here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/films/1945to1951/filmpage_la.htm) or here (http://www.archive.org/details/london_airport_TNA).

[HZ123]

A little more as a policeman in 1970 for the BAAC the tower at Northside was used by the Police vehicle removal unit but was bulldozed that year I am sure. I never had the pleasure of going into it. Forward to the LHR - JFK first Concorde flight you could actually drive unchecked from the southside peri road past the Air India Hangar and park up alongside the runway and watch the aircraft as 100's did on that day, which was please? Off the Northern Oeri were a couple of Brittania size hangars and I recall 2 parked up Brits? in Northeast livery in 1970 and a cargo company Saggitair always coming in on full emergencys? Many hights were foggy and the the T5 sewage farm was all open to the public, it was often a very spookey place LHR, illegals living under T2 with cooking areas and beds and a civil defence room under the entry roadway.

[beamender99]

One of these hanger arches ( nearest to Hatton Cross tube station) is still visible. The others have a modern extention in front of them.
I understand that they are the largest unsupported arches of their era.



http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg150/gwpcrescue/scan0003.jpg

[Duckbutt]

I understand that they are the largest unsupported arches of their era.

They are not actually arches but beams cantilevered out from vertical supports either side of the opening.

That Britannia, G-AOVG was the plane me and my wife flew on from Luton to Basle on our honeymoon in 1972. It was with Monarch then.

Sorry about the thread drift, carry on!

[WHBM]

Are you sure the map is immediately prewar? It shows the Colnbrook bypass and I thought that wasn't built until much later.
The bypass was 3 lanes, one each way and a take your chance suicide lane in the centre.
A4 Colnbrook bypass opened 1929. 3 lanes, 36 foot wide road was common rural main road specification from the late 1920s until 1950s. Yes, it was rural then.

Great West Road, alias the Hounslow bypass, was a little later, and dual carriageway as to urban spec.

[that chinese fella]

What a great You Tube clip on LHR construction, gee you wonder how it ever got built without the lads wearing fluoro shirts and ear muffs! ;)

[beamender99]

Duckbutt

Thanks for your expert description. Your [pedant] was well justified.
I knew they were something special hence they are protected but I had no idea of the technical name.

( About ten years ago BA had to get English Heritage clearance before A/C could be installed A/C = Air Conditioning in the offices)
This presented big problems because the detailed building plans had been lost.

Looking again at the photo.
Behind the A/C tail appears to be TBC ( Technical Block C) under construction but still there with Speedbird House on the left.

So this view of the hanger still exists today but with the new road from Hatton Cross to North side passing in front of it.

[Valeman]

I recommend a book entitled Heathrow 2000 Years of History, by Philip Sherwood. First published in 1999 my copy is from the 2001 reprint. It is on Sutton Publishing and the ISBN is 0-7509-2132-3. The book contains many interesting photographs and maps, especially those in chapter eight. It is also vey thought provoking as to how the place has changed even since this book was published.

re the previous posts in this thread, thanks for the excellent pictures. I have only been at Heathrow since 1979 so am still really a newbie.

[caorider]

I first saw LHR in March 1963... a building site, a mess.
I worked there for 8 years until 1971
It is still a building site, a bigger mess, a place best avoided.
Great pictures!

[chevvron]

Returning to buses; anyone remember the film 'The Runaway Bus' with Frankie Howerd and Margaret Rutherford? Frankie was an airport bus driver employed by either BEA or BOAC; at a fogbound London Airport in about '53 (so you didn't see a lot of the airport) he has to transfer some passengers to Blackbushe - and gets lost in the fog in the army ranges near Bagshot!!

[S'land]

Good grief! I have not thought about "the Runaway Bus" in years. It was Frankie Howard's first film if I remember right. He was the driver of a BOAC bus. There had been a bullion robbery at Heathrow and the the thieves had stored the bullion on the bus. The crooked mastermind was also on the bus, but I cannot remember who it was.

[chevvron]

May be wrong - it's years since I last saw it but it has been shown on TV - it turned out to be Margaret Rutherford (thread creep - the 'original' Miss Marple)

[S'land]

Margaret Rutherford as the villain sounds right. A wonderful actress.

[Amos Keeto]

I am building a scale model of Heathrow in 1/400th scale as it looked in the '60s. Here is one of the photos of my model to bring back memories.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/LAP62big.jpg

[diddy1234]

AMos Keeto, wow that looks good.

I bet that was alot of work to do. Must have taken a while to build.

would you be able to post another pic of your model (like a general overview of your model airfield) ?

RD

[WHBM]

Amos Keeto : Looks like a great model.

Would an Air France Connie and the 727 in the background have been there at the same time ?

[Fareastdriver]

Does it matter.

[Fokkerwokker]

Don't forget the oil-stains under the piston a/c :}

[PaperTiger]

Would an Air France Connie and the 727 in the background have been there at the same time ?Yes, 1964 or 1965 IIRC. After that the Connies only put in rare "extra" appearances and all were retired by 1967.

[treadigraph]

Amazing, more pics please! Are those the Corgi models?

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Not to nitpick (after all, you're free to have deliberate anachronisms if you want), but I seriously doubt Air France 727s visited Heathrow in 1964 or 1965. There were -200 Advanced versions, which would put them at 1969 or so at the earliest, I think.

[norwich]

Amos Keeto, Supurb model ! Wow wish I had that amount of skill and patience ! Below is the bottom right hand corner of your photo ?

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/lap60s1.jpg

Look at the wide open spaces on this one ? and the BOAC ad on the fire station.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/lap60s3.jpg

BOAC maintenance area again, looking busy ?

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/lap60s2.jpg

All photos courtesy of Colin Laurie, with permission. Keith.

[PaperTiger]

I seriously doubt Air France 727s visited Heathrow in 1964 or 1965We're talking about LH 727s (see picture).

[Seat62K]

I remember that when the Piccadilly Line terminated at Hounslow West one had to catch a London Transport single decker (A1?) which, I think, ran nonstop to the central area and was, when I used it, frequently packed. This would have been the early '70s.
P.S. I, too, recall cycling into the central area.

[norwich]

I thought the bus from Hounslow West to central was 91B, may be wrong, we are talking almost 50 years ago ! spotting at London Airport !
Glory Daze. Keith.

[WHBM]

The A1 nonstop bus from Hounslow West station to the Central Area started in about 1969, and ran until the Underground was extended about 10 years later. They used old London single-deck buses from the early 1950s (AEC RF type for the technically minded) with their whining transmissions and thundering engines, and some seats taken out for luggage racks and more standing room. Eventually it was found the Underground was not as universally convenient as hoped and a new express A1 bus was started, this time from Heathrow to Central London. This lasted until the Heathrow Express came along.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

Every week in 'Skyport' there is a brief article about some kind of historical aspect of flying at Heathrow and/or Gatwick. This weeks issue covers the creation of the twin-bore tunnel from the A4 Bath road into the Central Area, and has a photo showing the work in progress.

[233SQN]

Some great memories here....

As someone who grew up in Hounslow (underneath 28R) and later lived in Harlington and Sipson I also have lots of memeories... here are a few (which seem difficult to believe in today's security driven world)

I remember the first BOAC 747 at LHR (G-AWNA??) .... it and a couple of others were parked on the North side but could be easily accessed from a service road off of the Bath Road. I went there one evening with my dad (1969?) and we just parked up and calmly walked around the "sound baffle wall" and explored the undercarriage of this unbelievable aircraft. No one seemed in the slightest bothered by us being there!

In the early 70s I would get the 82 bus from Hounslow garage to LHR, and with other urchins would go around the terminals collecting anything that was free.... timetables luggage labels etc (in fact I have just bought the 1970 ESSO guide to London Airport from Ebay... I used to get one a week in those days!).... but most of all sugar cubes from the cafés, we would then go to the edge of the balcony in T1 and drop them onto the heads of the poor sods siting in the public phone areas on the lower floor (sorry if I ever got you)

In the mid 70s everyone my age had a sports moped (FS1Es, AP50s etc). The airport tunnel (the smaller bike/pedestrian one) was the favored place for seeing how fast your bike could go... the gentle slope down and no wind allowed us Fizzie boys to see 50mph on the clock. Most evenings you could see boy racers whizzing through, chin on the tank!

I particularly remember one evening in the early 80s in the White Hart (Harlington). A girl I was with knew I was interested in aircraft and asked if i would like to sit in the cockpit of Concorde. A call was duly made and after the pubs shut we headed off for TB J (i think). It turned out her mate's husband was the foreman electrician on the night shift , and for small donation to their tea swindle you could get a guided tour of anything in the hanger that night (and for me that was 747s and Concorde). The ground systems were all powered up and I had great fun whizzing back and forth in the the electrically powered captain's seat. There were several other parties also going around... they had quit a little thing going!!

Other memories include seeing the plume of smoke from our back garden when the BOAC 707 lost an engine and caught fire ('67?).... and returning from Pirbright range as an ATC cadet and being caught in the Sunday afternoon traffic at the Crooked Billett on the A30 when Papa India crashed.

In later years, racing a guy in an MGB off the lights at Hatton Cross and in th ensuing burn up around the perimeter road the MGB spun and rolled on the very sharp bend on the Northern Perimeter road and he had to be rescued by a transit full of BA workers who lifted the car up for him to crawl out, and the Pan Am maintenance base on the south side that always had a 727 parked there...

Sadly it just not the same over there anymore....

[darrylj]

agreed-so so much has changed.

i remember the 105 bus route, with those jump on, jump off routemaster buses which used to travel from shepherds bush to heathrow, & was like soo cheap to travel on them just to see heathrow. it was like 20p return with those conductors too.

oh those were the days. i remember the first time my friend took me to heathrow when the bus fare for some days went cheap, i had no idea where i was really going, & when i got into the tunnel, i started nearly crying wondering where the hell we had got to...:eek:

i remember harry heathrow-the teddy bear, those security guards in brown uniforms who used to advise us to leave, but we didn't, that trolley tunnel next to T2 where me & my mates used to race each other on them!, the queens building where so much could be seen, the busy bus stations.

a lot of the times whilst at work, i look at things around the airport & try to place myself back in those days again. very early 80's.
i know they will never return, but the feeling of being part of that is such a good feeling.

[ATNotts]

233SQN

Darn good thing ASBOs weren't around in those days - and security wasn't "paramount"!!

[aviate1138]

Amos Keeto

Great Model.

If you have a wide angle lens I would use it and stop down to get the focus sharp from foreground to background. It will look more realistic and enhance your modeling skills.

Dirtying down is another skill entirely.

I used to do all that for a living. Decades ago.

[holyflyer]

Re the A1 bus service. RF's were not used:

The A1 Airport Express was introduced in 1969, providing a direct non-stop link between Hounslow West Underground Station and Heathrow Airport Central, as a forerunner to the Piccadilly Line extension to Heathrow. The route was initially operated by MBSs and later SMSs, and was withdrawn in 1977 when the Piccadilly Line extension opened.

The number A1 was reused in 1981 for London United’s express Airbus service between Heathrow and London (Victoria Station) via Cromwell Road. It was withdrawn in 1999 when Heathrow Express trains began running to Paddington. (cf London Transport Lettered Routes A–C (http://www.eplates.info/lettersAC.html))

[Geezers of Nazareth]

agreed-so so much has changed.

i remember the 105 bus route, with those jump on, jump off Routemaster buses which used to travel from shepherds bush to heathrow, & was like soo cheap to travel on them just to see heathrow. it was like 20p return with those conductors too.


I can remember going to Heathrow on the 140 route (RTs and Routemasters) for 3p each way (that's '3 new p'!), and then a further 3p to get into the Queen's Building viewing terrace.

I can remember the IRA car-bomb in the T1 car park, and everywhere being evacutaed into the area near the bus station - and Ronnie Corbett entertaining us while the 'powers that be' decided how they would get us out (since the tunnel was closed!).

I also remember the 140 bus route home on Sundays. Certain selected journeys would go through the cargo tunnel and out past the area where T4 is now, down to Hatton Cross, and then around the eastern peri-road to Harlington Corner. I have a vague idea that this was because the tube link between the Centre and Hatton X was closed for works on Sundays?

I can also remember somebody doing an oil painting of the view from the QB. He seemed to be there most Sunday afternoons, and looking at some of the older types in the picture I got the idea that he'd been painting it for about 40 years (and that was in the 70s)!

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Hazy recollection here. "Wasn't there a tunnel from Central to the cargocentre, not for public though" Does anyone remember the maps, published by one of the fuel companies, 1/6d if I remember correctly with a big map of LHR ( LAP) in the middle and colour pictures of aircraft around the edge. Amazing how many comets Aerolineas Argentinas, BEA, BOAC Olympic, Sudan, MSA, MEA, Kuwait and Egyptair/UAA included there are round it.
Thanks for the thread,
Be lucky
David

[WHBM]

Hazy recollection here. "Wasn't there a tunnel from Central to the cargocentre, not for public though"
You couldn't drive your car through, but public buses used it. Especially after T4 opened a number of bus routes went from T4 to the Central Area this way. There was a gateman at a barrier who let the buses and all the allowed internal traffic through. I can remember going through in London double deckers in the 1990s.

[saman]

A vague memory tells me that the cargo tunnel, which I think exited or maybe still exits twixt the corner of T2 and the T2 multi story car park, was open to the public for a few months while some work was being carried out on the twin tunnels sometime around 1970 ish. It was great for those of us who lived south of LHR since we could come into the central area from that side and save a lot of time.

[darrylj]

i remember as you entered that cargo tunnel, a bright blue-ish light on the tunnel side on slight bends..
what were they for?..a guide or something?.

[Mike Read]

From the summer of 1947 till Nov '49 I worked as a met asistant in the Met Office which was just west of the original control tower. I lived in Hayes and cycled to work through Harlington. The entrance to the airport was from the Bath Road so that would put the tower roughly where the entrance to the tunnel is now. The Three Magpies was on the Bath Road just west of the entrance. (Not shown on the map at the beginning)

There was a canteen which we walked to across the apron. No high vis jackets then! I remember AOA and /or PAA Stratocruisers and Constellations. O P Jones came in for briefings. He was easily recognisable but was just one of a long list of "gods" to a sixteen year old.

My first flight into LAP was in a Lancashire Airways Rapide from Bovingdon in 1949 where I was on a temporary attachment. They flew over frequently to give joyrides from just outside the public viewing area which was west of the Met Office. A female pilot was employed by them which seemed unusual to me. Even then I was a sexist pig. Also the GCA controller's patter was broadcast over the Tannoy in the public viewing area.

In Nov '49 I was called up for national service, trained as a pilot and for the next 42 years was paid to enjoy myself first by the King, then the Queen and eventually various airlines. Much better than working for a living.

[A30yoyo]

This photo on abpic shows the original Fairey hangar in the central area which lingered into the 1960s until Fairey's compensation for the requisition of 'The Great West Aerodrome' had been settled. It housed fire appliances and BOAC had an ad aimed at the crowds on the Queens Building viewing terraces....BEA's mid 1950s vintage maintenance base to the left in the distance

Convair 440, OO-SCP, Sabena (SN / SAB) (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1129917)

[233SQN]

This first shot is view from the Queens building in th every early 60's. The original Fairey Hangar is in th middle distance. The white "square building" on the corner of the hangar was the original Great West aerodrome control tower
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/elliott__bear/img074.jpg[/IMG]

.... compare it to the picture below taken in early 1930's!!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/elliott__bear/img075-1.jpg[/IMG]

[A30yoyo]

Excellent 233sqdn....never seen the Fairey control tower before....in the top photo the people plane watching are in the 'Passengers Friends Waving Base ' which was separate from and below the public Queens Building terraces and free and was entered through the Fortes restaurant in the Europa Building (T2)... it was open into the night so was handy for spotting the Alitalia arrivals about 2130 if you werent chucked out ...I was over there the evening the BEA Ambassador crashed at Munich and watched the info come through on the open tickertape terminals on the BEA pax desks

[white44]

At about 13yrs. of age (1951ish.) I took a flight from LHR sightseeing over London.

This was from Northside and ops. was I think a tent, or possibly a wooden hut.
We took off and landed on the grass next to the runway to the best of my recollection. The aircraft was definitely G-AGUF ( where is it now?).
In later years, while working at EMI in Hayes, I would stop and reggie spot from the car park area.

Try that now!!

[S'land]

The aircraft was definitely G-AGUF ( where is it now?).

Owned by Channel Island Airways it crashed at Ramsgate on 29 June 1957.

[A30yoyo]

This link to the Getty sister site JAMD has pics of Monique Rendall(nee Agazarian), pilot /proprietor of Island Air Services which flew the Rapide joyrides at LAP (LHR).G-AGUF 'Guffie' was her favourite. She had been an ATA ferry pilot in WWII

Jamd - Search - Search for "monique rendall" (http://www.jamd.com/search/?q=monique+rendall)

[KeMac]

http://http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj189/keef_010/Image001.jpg

[KeMac]

Interesting that the layout shows the position of the parallel third E/W runway in more or less the same spot they now want to place it and at the same length originally proposed for it (2000mt) although I think they are going for a longer one now.

[Warmtoast]

In 233Sqn's post above
The white "square building" on the corner of the hangar was the original Great West aerodrome control tower


Is this the same ATC Tower as it existed alongside the A4 (Bath Road) around 1950 as seen here?

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Heathrow-NorthSideControlTowerc-195.jpg

[233SQN]

No Completely different.... This tower was on the North side and was built as part of the military expansion, but continued in use into the civilian period.

The original control tower attached to the Fairey hangar wasn't really a control tower at all.... more of an observation area and flying control, and was in the middle of the airport

[Matt-Braddock]

Those of us with access to British TV may be interested in this ---

“CHANNEL4 Thursday 13:55 “Out of the Clouds” (1954) Excellent Ealing drama following the personal tales of the pilots and passengers of a bygone age during a busy day at London Airport. “

I have not seen the film before but it sounds as if it is along the same lines as “The V.I.P.s” (1963) that is also set at Heathrow.

[stevo76]

Here's a picture of Heathrow in 1945 on the RAF Museum website, the runway on the left is now rwy 9L. Hard to believe it looked like that!

Heathrow Airport, 1945 (From RAF Museum) (http://www.rafmuseumphotos.com/pictures_1043234/Heathrow-Airport-1945.html)

Stevo ;)

[captain_flynn]

KeMac's photo is interesting. Why were those runways to the north never built?

[A30yoyo]

The existing Star of David runways were embarrassingly under-used right through the 50s...the original triangular RAF set would probably have been adequate,lack of a decent terminal was a puzzle .... the date for the official abandonment of #7,8,9 scheme (or 8,9,10 if you're a cynic) is to be found in Philip Sherwood's Heathrow 2000 book, p77...on Dec 10 1952 the Minister of Civil Aviation announced that 'the additional amount of traffic which could be accepted by extending the Airport north of the Bath Road would not justify the expenditure and disturbance incurred.'


Having built 6 (actually 7 :)) runways they closed the most used one, 28R ,(now 27R) from about 1951 to 1953 to dig the road tunnel to the centre....must have seemed a long taxi to the Southside runway....28R/10L was closed briefly again in the Summer of 1962 when a Lufthansa 720B landed dramatically with its nosewheel up halting above the Central tunnel (see jamd link )(all OK ,plane was repaired)

Jamd (http://www.jamd.com/image/in-search/boeing+airplane/#524g2673622)

[denis555]

Does anyone remember the maps, published by one of the fuel companies, 1/6d if I remember correctly with a big map of LHR ( LAP) in the middle and colour pictures of aircraft around the edge. Amazing how many comets Aerolineas Argentinas, BEA, BOAC Olympic, Sudan, MSA, MEA, Kuwait and Egyptair/UAA included there are round it.

I remember it -produced by Esso - fascinated me for years looking at all the airlines depicted. Sadly I lost my 1965 version

http://www.ianbyrne.free-online.co.uk/essomaps/e62air.jpg

[233SQN]

they crop up regularly on Ebay... I bought one the other week for a couple of quid....

[denis555]

I must admit it - in fact I cut the planes out, stuck them on cardboard and played air raffic control on my bedroom carpet :uhoh:

[Amos Keeto]

It seems a long time since I uploaded a picture of my 1/400th scale Heathrow model in the '60s, so following several requests, here are some more. It's about to get a complete revamp with photo-quality infrastructure..watch this space!

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/8JULY083.jpg
Busy day with lots of activity - great variety of sounds with jets, turboprops and pistons galore!

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/8JULY084.jpg
A BOAC 707 about to start its take-off roll on 28L

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/8JULY081.jpg
An Air France Caravelle heads the queue for departures, followed by a Pan Am Boeing 707, TWA Super Constellation and an Aeroflot IL-62 (sorry, no TU-104 model available in this scale!!)

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/Britanniaarrival.jpg
A BOAC Britannia on finals inbound from New York


...and finally, here is what inspired me to capture all this in model form .
This is me (aged 11) on the roof gardens of Terminal 2 in 1961 with Loftleider DC-6 behind and lots of lovely BEA propliners! The wonderful '60s when you could take photos without a telephoto lens, no hassle,no terrorist threats and it always seemed to be sunny!

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/1961Adrian-age11atHeathrow-2.jpg

[S'land]

Very nice Amos. I know that I would not have had the skill, nor the patience for a project like this.

The wonderful '60s when you could take photos without a telephoto lens, no hassle,no terrorist threats and it always seemed to be sunny!

Funny, but I remember those days in exactly the same way. I think that they were the best days as you had such a mix of propeller and jet aircraft.

[captain_flynn]

Wow your model heathrow is amazing! Did you build it all yourself?

I was looking on youtube and found this interesting video about the construction of heathrow. It shows quite a few shots of heathrow from the air too..

YouTube - London Airport (1949) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-svhmFd214)

[Amos Keeto]

Yes, built it all myself. It is only the SE corner of Heathrow and is built on four 4' X 3' boards totalling 8' X 6'. The models are all diecast 1/400th scale made by Aeroclassics and Gemini Jets and are readily available.
Currently, I'm constructing the BEA Engineering Base so will post more photos when finished.

[captain_flynn]

Thanks for replying. I thought a few of those were gemini jets models. I think one of my BOAC VC-10 models is a gemini jets model. Mind you i've got about 200 models of all makes but they are all boxed. :ok:

Thats really impressive. How long did it take? Are you going to have the whole airport modelled or just certain parts?

[beamender99]

The Winter of 1947

http://www.topfoto.co.uk/gallery/1947Winter/images/prevs/1035254.jpg (http://www.topfoto.co.uk/gallery/1947Winter/default.htm)



Low level attack! Deep snow at London Airpot (Heathrow) brought flights to a standstill. Here a group of BOAC air hostesses attack the Station Deputy Superintendent in the lunch hour. 30th January 1947

[WHBM]

Here a group of BOAC air hostesses attack .....
Presumably nobody dared to do that to O P Jones !

[LAS1997]

Amos, what a great model layout. Like you my love for aviation started plane spotting on the Queens building, but some time later in the early 1970's. I had the pleasure of working at LHR for fourteen years and miss it terribly, there was such a buzz about the place as they say.

How did you manage to capture that BOAC Britannia on finals? I did not see any string!

[avionic type]

Please keep this thread going , as most of my life was at L.H.R. Heathrow, London Airport , this allows me to wallow in nostalgia, my time was 1947 to 1949 and 1954 to1994 working first for B.O.A.C then after RAF service B.E.A. /British Airways as for the building work it has never stopped since 1945 if you watch the film about the early days of the place it said it would take 6 years to compleat [that caused a smile]:hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:

[Sultan Ismail]

Amos
Your photos are fantastic, and brought back some very good memories. My first long haul from Heathrow was on the South African Airways Boeing 707-244 to Johannesburg via Isla do Sal. That was June 1969.

Earlier flights were in the Air France Caravelle to Paris and the Swissair Coronado to Geneva. Another Air France flight to Paris was in their Super Constellation.

I recall the SAA 707 had a ventral fin, something to do with longitudinal stability at the gross weights being used by SAA. In those days they were obliged to "go round the bulge".

Somewhere in my archives I have slides taken during the departure from Heathrow in the SAA 707, I was seated on the left hand side just in front of the engines. I also took pics as we arrived in Jo'burg, typical winter weather blue sky brown earth.

[avionic type]

I believe the Ventral fin was fitted by the order of the A.R.B of the time as the B.O.A.C 707s fitted with Rolls Engines would snake on take off and unless better stability was found they refused to give the plane a Cof A. if this is incorrect I'm sure it will be corrected. later 707s were fitted with a bigger fin

[Saab Dastard]

707 series ventral fin was discussed on PPRuNe last year:

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/362736-boeing-707-ventral-fin-story.html

SD

[rog747]

amos omg i recognize you from your 1960's pic !

i used to be there too always every school hols or weekends...about 1964 onwards, i am abit younger than you.
did you work later at LHR?

i then went onto work at LAP (well LHR i suppose) from 1974 for BA-northeast
on the trident 1e holiday charters (ex BKS stuff)
then eventually BMA ops and traffic/pax 1977 onwards...
my BMA traffic office eventually was in the old queens building.

this is a great thread,
my first flight ever was on a british eagle britannia trojan to barcelona for
our summer hols july 1964.
eagle had its own air terminal off high st kensington i think,
we used to get on the coach there.

why did they want 3 parallel runways when LAP was first built from the nw/se direction? 14/32?
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/337032-how-did-heathrow-used-look-2.html#post4299247
weird...
was that to launch lots of bombers against mr stalin should the need
have arisen?

marvellous reading all this,
lots of happy memories, thanks

just remembered being on the jump seat on flight deck of midland baby dc9 from teeside into LHR on rwy 23 (mega windy day)
that was over the big tower... the whole approach was like a roller coaster
captain was tony belcher, hehe

wot fun:ok:

[Capot]

This has been in an album for decades captioned "Heathrow when I first used it", probably by my father.

Can anyone confirm or deny?


http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/picshooter/LHR-Early.jpg

[WHBM]

Capot :

It's a well-known photograph which has appeared in several places. I believe it was featured as a still in the TV programme made in 1996 for Heathrow's 50th birthday. It also appeared in Propliner magazine. It tends to go with an exterior shot of the same tent, alongside which is the communications centre, namely a group of several traditional red telephone boxes standing at slightly drunken angles as they separately gently subside into the mud all around. Being 1946 my guess also would be that the tents were RAF surplus.

My guess is that it was issued by Heathrow in 1946 as a publicity photo. If your father was actually the photographer that would indeed be a find.

[Capot]

WHBM

Many thanks for that interesting response. The picture is an original contact print, on the photographic paper of the period, but he was definitely not the photographer.

I like to picture him in the WH Smiths, once he had dealt with the cables, while waiting to be invited to walk out to the aircraft, and picking up the picture as a memento.

Perhaps WH Smiths offered him a paper bag for 1d.

It would have compared favourably, in terms of comfort, to his 8 departures for Germany a couple of years earlier flying his Lanc; the final trip was a longish one to Belaria for 18 months with a long walk westwards to round it off.

[WHBM]

Capot :

Here's the pic on line elsewhere.

London Heathrow Airport History (http://www.airwise.com/airports/europe/LHR/LHR_07.html)

Good on your dad for his Lanc trips (mine was on Halifaxes, fortunately with as many landings as take-offs). If he was flying from Heathrow in 1946 he was quite possibly in a Lancastrian "conversion", which probably looked a little bit familiar ...... !

[Amos Keeto]

Well, I haven't checked this thread for a while and so many nice comments about my Heathrow model. Alas, it's currently 'wintering' (brrrr!) and dismantled in the garage,waiting for me to do more to it, which I will when it gets warmer and the days are longer, as I hate working under artificial light!

Here are some more of my model airliners on the layout. Many of these you can't buy commercially, so I have repainted some models and got a friend to make some 1/400th scale decals for them, giving me Cunard Eagle Airways, British Eagle, Cambrian, Starways and many more for the '60s era.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/Eagle.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/Vikings-1.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/Cambrianfleet-1.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/BEAVanguards2.jpg

No, I never worked at Heathrow, just had an urge to have a good record of
the wonderful times I spent on the Roof Gardens 'reggie spotting' with my Dad in the '60s. You could take photos without a telephoto lens, we had good summers then, no terrorist threats...life in Britain was good then!!

[Entaxei]

Reading these posts is throwing me back over 50 years, for what its worth, I started spotting at LAP (as was) around 1954, down the far end of the black Nissen huts that comprised London Airport Passenger Terminal, (the posh bit, nothing else was), but a land of magic to a young lad to go down the far end of the huts and emerge on the apron with the ladder stairs for the kites and sit under them. You could watch the connies etc., taxi in and turn in front of you before shutting down.

They were digging a big tench across to the centre and later filled it in to roof it over, we then moved to the roof gardens in the Queens Building, this was nicely situated on the corner of the aprons and taxiways, very good for photos and spotting, the commentator - Stan, vertically challanged and a smashing guy with his assistant Elizabeth, used to give a running commentary on the aircraft arriving and play classical music, an education in itself. No need for security then!!.

I joined BOAC in 1957 as cash office junior (took a cheque for £7 million to the Bank of England in the chairmans chauffeur driven Jaguar to pay Vickers for the fleet of Viscounts for the BOAC associated Airways - BWIA, etc.), moved to the photographic unit for 2 years - took a whole load of personal A/C photos over these years. Joined BEA in 1961 on office work, moved onto the hangers in production control around 1965 working on the aircraft, covered Viscounts, Comets, Tridents 1,2,3, Argosy, BAC1-11, Vanguards, Merchantman freighter conversions etc. Achieved my A,B & C, gliding certificates with the ATC and had about 30 hour power flying. Another education!!.

Is'nt nostalgia wonderfull, it skips over all the nasty bits and leaves this happy glow. If its of any interest, I have recently started scanning my old B&W negs, try on www.abpic.co.uk (http://www.abpic.co.uk) enter Brian Doherty then photographer then search, could be a while to complete, theres still approx 800 negs to load!! - with apologies for meandering from the thread.

Cheers Entaxei :ok:

[Amos Keeto]

Brian,

Thanks very much for adding to the wonderful memories. My first ever visit was in 1960 with the school and from then on, I was 'hooked'. Indeed the atmosphere on the roof gardens of the Queens Building and Europa Building was magical. The spluttering pistons engines, the whistling turboprop Viscounts mixed in with the 707s and DC-8s provided the 'background music', whilst the commentator announced information about arrivals and departures with Glen Miller music in between! You could never recreate such a mix, but I aim to do just that on my 1/400 scale model with all those background sounds! It'll be the nearest thing I can get to bottling nostalgia!

I've just checked out the Air-Britain site and what an incredible collection of photos you have uploaded. Did you ever take any in colour?

[A30yoyo]

The central one was part of the original triangular 3 runway RAF style layout....what is now 27R/09L was laid that close to the A4 road (in the RAF layout) because the Perry Oaks Sewage works couldn't be moved quickly...these were expanded to the Star of David '6' runway civilian scheme again avoiding Perry Oaks, making the central runway NW/SE redundant eventually buried under the Central Area Terminal

[alisoncc]

Have fond memories of visiting LHR - Hatton Cross, on a number of occasions in late '60's whilst working for RCA Aviation Div at Sunbury on Thames. Particularly when Pan-Am flew their very first just-delivered 747 there for an inspection by interested parties - which included me, in July 1969 or thereabouts. First impressions and comments were "They must have assembled it in a hangar as it couldn't possibly have flown here". Photos in AW&ST came no where near in conveying the immense size of the beast. Heck the 707 was king back then.

[Anthony Appleyard]

"what is now 27R/09L was laid that close to the A4 road (in the RAF layout) because the Perry Oaks Sewage works couldn't be moved quickly."

At first the Air Ministry came up a plan of a triangle of 3 runways including overrunning the sewage works, but Middlesex County Council refused, because it would need a replacement sewage sludge works building and a sewer linking it to Mogden near Isleworth, in wartime in the run-up to D-Day :: after a volcanic row the Air Ministry saw sense and had to change its plan.

[Anthony Appleyard]

233Sqn wrote:
> The white "square building" on the corner of the hangar was the original
> Great West aerodrome control tower

233SQN wrote: (http://www.pprune.org/members/190583-233sqn)
> No Completely different.... This tower was on the North side and was built
> as part of the military expansion, but continued in use into the civilian period.
>The original control tower attached to the Fairey hangar wasn't really a control
> tower at all.... more of an observation area and flying control, and was in the
> middle of the airport

Fairey's pre-1944 grass airfield also had a cluster of small buildings by its east edge, at least up to 1934. One pre-war map marks "Radio" by them. They started as the farm buildings of Gamble's Farm, which Fairey bought as part of its airfield. (Similar happened with pre-war Ringway south of Manchester: it included Firtree Farm on the south side of Yewtree Lane, and they kept its farm buildings as airfield service buildings.)

[Anthony Appleyard]

Are any of you old enough to remember the old Heathrow farming and market gardening village before the airport came in 1944?

Heathrow (hamlet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathrow_%28hamlet%29)

[rognjac1]

Reading this thread about the early days of Heathrow reminded me that I had some photos that I took there in 1962. They can be viewed at Flickr: rnewark2001's Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/liberator24/)
From memory, I think I was using a Minolta Autocord 6x6 twin lens reflex. Roger

[merlinxx]

Pic of the tunnel walk way brought back memories of walking back to Queen's from the "Peg" after lunch, too far over to the Silver Wing club !!!!:E

[gpugh]

Hi My father remembers landing a Tiger Moth there in 1945/46


Gordon

[Liobian]

Just found this thread - it's brilliant. Took me right back to the summer (around 1960) when my late Dad took me to London for a week. We did the museums etc. and spent a lot of time in the viewing patch on the N side, close by the statue of Alcock and Brown. He blagged us in to the (IIRC) 'Green Dragon' whcih I think was the staff canteen towards the eastern end of the N aprons. Recall it was full of guys in oily overalls. Guess they were from the BOAC Brits outside, along with early jets and the Panair do Brasil Connie which I eagerly 'spotted'.
I took distant photos of the Air France Connies which operated the Paris shuttle, the Aer Lingus Connie, and a BOAC DC-7 freighter with BEA cargo titles.
In later years, overnight coach trips to Farnborough saw us walking through the tunnel to the central area for brekkie, before bussing onward to the Show. It was a bl..dy long walk too !

[DaveReidUK]

spent a lot of time in the viewing patch on the N side, close by the statue of Alcock and Brown

Who have probably by now travelled farther being dragged around various locations at Heathrow than they did across the Atlantic. :)

In later years, overnight coach trips to Farnborough

Gosh, I remember those red-eyes from way back, Dragonflies at Blackbushe, cocooned Comet I's ...

Went yesterday, managed 2 hours before I got bored.

[Anthony Appleyard]

Heathrow - The Lost Hamlet (http://www.scribd.com/doc/57482167/Heathrow-The-Lost-Hamlet)

And see this link for what Heathrow looked like in the 1930's.

[Y44]

I haven't been through the entire thread but thus far I have not seen reference to the BEA Viscount (G-AMOK) which suffered an incident on the disused 15 Central in 1955. In low visibility the aircraft was instructed to line-up on 15R as it taxyed along the northern taxyway. On reaching 15 Central the crew mistook it for 15R and lined up on it. During the take-off roll the aircraft crashed into WIP along the runway resulting in just a few minor injuries to the aircraft's occupants.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Thereafter the stub that was left of 15C was known as Waites Alley, after the Captain of the Viscount.

[DaveReidUK]

Was it ever actually called "15C" ? In other words, was there a time when Heathrow had three operational 15/33 runways ?

I'd always been under the impression that the original 15R/33L (Runway No 3 in the "RAF" schema) was replaced by the new 15R/33L (Runway No 6) to make room for the Central Terminal Area at the same time (late 1940s) as Runways 4, 5 and 7 were added.

[Y44]

Can't say I actually know the answer to that one Dave. The only occasions that I heard mention of the runway during my time at Heathrow Tower during the 60s it was referred to as 'Central'. I'd love to know just how much use the runway got as I gather it must have been de-activated already around 47 or 48! Whatever, I always consider Heathrow to have been a seven runway airport!

[DaveReidUK]

Whatever, I always consider Heathrow to have been a seven runway airport!

Well technically it was, in the sense that the runways were numbered from 1 to 7, even if they were never all in use at the same time.

I must admit that when I first worked at Heathrow in the 70s, I could never understand why 10L/28R was Runway 1, but 10R/28L was Runway 5. When I eventually did some research into LHR's history, all became clear.

[Talkdownman]

Was it ever actually called "15C" ? In other words, was there a time when Heathrow had three operational 15/33 runways ? I'd always been under the impression that the original 15R/33L (Runway No 3 in the "RAF" schema) was replaced by the new 15R/33L (Runway No 6) to make room for the Central Terminal Area at the same time (late 1940s) as Runways 4, 5 and 7 were added.
RAF Runway No. 3 was designated 16/34. It was decommissioned after 2 years of use (1945-47) to make way for the civil 'Central Area'. 'Waite's Alley' was never a 15C/33C, it was the northern stub of 16 which was painted over as 'taxiway'. The word remains visible on Google Maps. Loads of stuff on all this (and the 1946 ten-runway proposal...!) in Philip Sherwood's book 'Heathrow-2000 years of history'.

"The [16/34] runway....had to be built to keep up the pretence that the airport was needed by the RAF...Its construction was opposed by BOAC because it was entirely unsuitable for civil aviation and it was subsequently abandoned...That this runway might eventually be redundant to the civil scheme was known when construction commenced...the period of use of the redundant runway will be less than two years. Its cost will have been £350.000 [at 1946 prices]"

[airsmiles]

So why was the redundant 16/34 runway deemed unsuitable for commercial use? A runway is a runway isn't it and usable by any aircraft?

[scotbill]

This was the 1957 aerodrome chart.
LAP - as it was then known - still had a green ident flashing beacon.
First based there in 1960. The staff car park for the Queens Building became the subsequent site for Terminal 1.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa453/scotbill/HeathrowChart.jpg

[A30yoyo]

Queens Building seen from the 1955 Central Control Tower
Air Aero 1920- (2 Folders) - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/938dbd872deeaa84.html)

T2 (Europa) Terminal interior looking NE
Air Aero 1920- (2 Folders) - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/ea857783db7e14c9.html)

T2 (Europa) Terminal interior looking SW
Air Aero 1920- (2 Folders) - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/cff1603ee773f4df.html)

T2 (Europa) Terminal from the 1955 CentralControl Tower
Air Aero 1920- (2 Folders) - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/ef92e86bc298a126.html)

View of Northside apron looking East from 1946 Northside Tower
Air Aero 1920- (2 Folders) - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/9ba58a0861bfeca6.html)

View of Spectators Enclosure ca. 1951 looking West from Northside Tower
Air Aero 1920- (2 Folders) - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/c44fa4b9a61c60e5.html)

Only the cars have changed :) ?
Air Aero 1920- (2 Folders) - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/b0c1439a0b0ebd18.html)

Northside apron view ca.1946, Bricklayer's Arms? (later The Air Hostess) and row houses visible on the Bath Rd (A4)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3360/4631880489_af2509468b_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7691137@N06/4631880489/)
Lancastrian G-AHBU (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7691137@N06/4631880489/) by Stephen Greensted (http://www.flickr.com/people/7691137@N06/), on Flickr

[A30yoyo]

You could see more military types at Heathrow in its first few years, e.g.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5098/5470266627_a119487c03_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/5470266627/)
WE139 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/5470266627/)by David Whitworth (http://www.flickr.com/people/dwhitworth/), on Flickr

and Air-Britain : Air force Heathrow 1952 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=Air+force++Heathrow+1952&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=50)

Air-Britain : Air force Heathrow 1953 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=Air+force++Heathrow+1953&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=50)

Air-Britain : air force heathrow 1954 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=air+force+heathrow+1954&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=10)


Air-Britain : air force heathrow 1956 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=air+force+heathrow+1956&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=10)

Air-Britain : Air force Heathrow 1958 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=Air+force++Heathrow+1958&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=50)

[Anthony Appleyard]

I found that the older man who used to run the snack shop in the Precinct Centre arch in Manchester University (UK), in 1943 had been a motorcycle dispatch rider, and he had to take a message to Heathrow when it was still countryside before the airport came, and he went to the Great West Aerodrome there (about half a mile each way, all grass) , and there he shook hands with King George VI.

[foreverhappy7]

I used to work in the old Technical Block 'A' in Hatton Cross at Heathrow and have loads of Really Happy Memories from then and wonder if anyone else out there remembers this place. I specificially remember my fun days in my purple triumph spitfire which are well collectable now though mine is sadly long gone, and there was one other girl there who had one also except hers was in
yellow and I wondered if she is still around and if she also has the same Happy memories of there, and how she is now, Would Love to hear back, Dawnx.:)

[76fan]

Great thread ...... I used to cycle from Ruislip Manor via Hayes and spent many hours/days "spotting" at Heathrow in the late 50's , just wish I had kept my spotters handbooks! The sights and sounds of Constellations, Stratocruisers, Vikings, Ambassadors, Yorks, DC 3's 4's 6's, Comets, Caravelles, smoke trailing 707's (and the horrible shrill Darts on the Viscounts as witnessed from the top of the Queen's Building), will remain with me forever.

63/64 I worked for a year in the Met Office at SATCC (where the controllers worked in pitch blackness at their radar screens) on the North Side Bath Road. My boss was Reg Needham, lovely gentle pipe-smoking man with a modern Triumph Herald, my transport very soon upgraded to my brother's 1927 Austin 7 ....

[IcePack]

Scotbill that chart proves it. LHR was nicknamed the Star of David.

[2 sheds]

I don't think that the Airport itself was so nicknamed (what constitutes a recognised nickname, anyway?) , but that pattern of all-embracing runway directions was certainly colloquially known as a Star of David pattern.

2 s

[DaveReidUK]

I used to work in the old Technical Block 'A' in Hatton Cross at Heathrow and have loads of Really Happy Memories from then and wonder if anyone else out there remembers this place.

TBA is still there, of course (it's a listed building, so it probably will be for ever). My abiding memory of it is how big it was and how long the walk from the front entrance to the canteen (my usual reason for visiting as a change from the runway canteen or Hatton Cross).

That, and almost getting run over on the roundabout by a mad woman driving a purple sport car ...

[Amos Keeto]

There is a superb new hardback book just published by The History Press entitled "Heathrow in Photographs -celebrating 70 Years of London's Airport" by Adrian M. Balch. It has colour photos throughout of many of the airliners seen there from its opening in 1946 right up to date. A lovely Christmas present for any Heathrow nostalgic aviation enthusiast. Check it out in WH Smiths, Waterstones and on Amazon!

[India Four Two]

but that pattern of all-embracing runway directions was certainly colloquially known as a Star of David pattern.


I'm sure that the designers thought they had found the optimum solution for the location of the terminal buildings - right in the middle of the runways. Little did they know how unsuitable that would become!

Two questions:

1. What is the Air Station on the chart?

2. When did the last diagonal runway close?

[DaveReidUK]

Two questions:

1. What is the Air Station on the chart?

2. When did the last diagonal runway close?

Can't help with the first question (there are actually two "Air Stations" on the chart), but the last cross runway (05R/23L) was closed in 2002.

[Jhieminga]

Here's the 1968 landing chart:
http://www.vc10.net/div/LHR_1968.jpg

[Warmtoast]

A30yoyo
Re. the photo of Lancastrian G-AHBU in your post #143. This crashed and was destroyed at Belfast whilst engaged in the Northern Island to mainland Britain 'Milkrun' on 3rd October 1947. Further details on PPRuNe here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/582405-avro-lancastrian-tales-12.html

[A30yoyo]

Boeing 707-351C - Northwest Orient Airlines | Aviation Photo #0718299 | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Northwest-Orient-Airlines/Boeing-707-351C/718299/L?qsp=eJwtjcEKwjAQRH%2Bl7NmDIljoTX9AD/7AkgymWJuwu9CG0n93Dd4eM4%2BZjUKeDas9awENpGAJiQ5UWPijNGz0Rl2y RGeas1haoNb1x75LYEuSF7fVi1t1I7LhGgKKIf7zu0TIr4KGNvzyo5MD5NGY zhfP46hl4rYB43Giff8CuwU0yQ%3D%3D)
airsmiles #141....34/16 (edit... not L/R) was closed because it ran right through the planned Central Terminal area
Jhieminga #154 23R/05L was closed soon after your map was released to allow building of T3 piers for the 747 (which entered service in1970) but 05R was certainly still used for a couple more decades on occasion...see top link

[DaveReidUK]

34L/16R was closed because it ran right through the planned Central Terminal area

Heathrow actually had two runways designated 16R/34L (at different times). The first of those was closed to create space for the CTA. The replacement 16R/34L (later 15R/33L) was further west and is the one along the line of which Terminal 3 Pier 7 was built. Both the older one (just) and newer one can still be discerned on present-day aerial photos.

23R/05L was closed soon after your map was released to allow building of T3 piers for the 747 (which entered service in 1970) but 05R was certainly still used for a couple more decades on occasion.Runway 05R/23L survived for another 30-odd years, as per my previous post, until 2002.

[A30yoyo]

India Four Two #152... the double triangle or 'Star of David' runway pattern evolved because Middlesex County Council would not or could not move the Perry Oaks sewage plant to permit the E-W runway to run through the middle of the site....accordingly the main runway was laid much closer to the A4 road (the 09L/27R we have now, corrected per DaveReidUK) with crosswind runways 23/05 and 34/16 making up the first triangle....the second inverted triangle allowed a second E-W runway to pass to the south of the sewage plant (the latter finally removed a half century later to permit T5 construction.)

[DaveReidUK]

India Four Two #152... the double triangle or 'Star of David' runway pattern evolved because Middlesex County Council would not or could not move the Perry Oaks sewage plant to permit the E-W runway to run through the middle of the site....accordingly the main runway was laid much closer to the A4 road (the 27L/09R we have now) with crosswind runways 23/05 and 34/16 making up the first triangle....the second inverted triangle allowed a second E-W runway to pass to the south of the sewage plant (the latter finally removed a half century later to permit T5 construction.)

The County Council's intransigence turned out to be of benefit in the end.

With a runway through the middle of Perry Oaks, it would have been very difficult to construct a second parallel runway either to the north or south with sufficient separation to allow even semi-independent operations on both.

accordingly the main runway was laid much closer to the A4 road (the 27L/09R we have now)I think you mean the present 27R/09L, more usually referred to as 09L/27R (the convention with runways is to put the smaller number first).

[pax britanica]

Re the purple sports car woman . I was hit by mauve Spitfire in my Mini Clubman at the Hatton Cross A30 junction going north. She was in the centre lane ansd iwas in the LH one and she just drove into me as she assumed I was turning into the airport.

I heard from the insuarance loss adjuster, ex copper, (her hubby was a lawyer and he sent me a very nasty letter trying to make me admit it was my fault) that she was a bit too well know for driving incidents (as Dave Reid points out -has to be the same woman) for that to have any credibility.

Dawn, a close friend of my wife's from those days (they both worked at Speedbird London radio) also possessed a shiny red spit.

Talk about memory flashing back on a prompt

[DaveReidUK]

That, and almost getting run over on the roundabout by a mad woman driving a purple sports car ...

For the avoidance of doubt (as the lawyers say), I was pulling the OP's leg about that part. :O

[bcgallacher]

About 1954 or so I flew into Heathrow in a BOAC Argonaut.The journey took about a week due to 3 returns from flight with an engine feathered.The customs facility at that time was a large military style tent or marquee.

[treadigraph]

The journey took about a week due to 3 returns from flight with an engine feathered


From Scotland? Blimey... ;)

[A30yoyo]

DaveReidUK....are you sure about the runway pair in direction 15/33 being initially designated 16/34? It's new to me and I thought there was visibly a 10 degree slant relative to the original central 16/34 and it was all before the magnetic shift.
The position of Perry Oaks sewage plant continued to dictate the layout of Heathrow, preventing T4 from being built between the runways instead of on Perry Oaks (as T5 eventually was)

[DaveReidUK]

DaveReidUK....are you sure about the runway pair in direction 15/33 being initially designated 16/34? It's new to me and I thought there was visibly a 10 degree slant relative to the original central 16/34 and it was all before the magnetic shift

Runways Number 2 (the original 16/34) and Number 6 (the later 16R/34L, subsequently 15R/33L) were dead parallel, as can be more easily seen in this 1955 photo than in present-day ones:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Aerial_photograph_of_Heathrow_Airport,_1955.jpg

[briani]

Fascinating - have just read the 'Heathrow Thread' for the first time - I spent a few happy years based in the Central Area with BEA Flight Servicing. Looked after departure snags on Viscount (700 and 800 series) Elizabethans, DC3 and finally Vanguards). Memories of the York freighters and Super Connies take-offs when on night shift - loved the sound of those powerful engines.

[bcgallacher]

Treadigraph - My omission - the flight was from Singapore,my father was an engineer with the old Malayan Airways.

[Hussar 54]

Some interesting Heathrow nostalgia here....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Om7kdR_Pg

In fact there's a quite a few in the 'Look at Life' series with aviation content.

[gyp]

Some tales from the very early days (1947) included here.

Early Days at Heathrow (http://www.a-e-g.org.uk/early-days-at-heathrow.html)

[Midland63]

For the avoidance of doubt (as the lawyers say), ...

Ha! I'm a lawyer (retired) and use that expression regularly, conscious that I'm often adding to the doubt considerably!

[Anthony Appleyard]

It is likely off-topic here, but see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathrow_(hamlet)

and the external links listed at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathrow_(hamlet)#External_links

for Heathrow when it was country and a village before the airport came.
And:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Heathrow_Airport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_West_Aerodrome

[GeeRam]

Another Heathrow landmark will soon be no more, as after 15 years since R23 became defunct, the famous old gasholder at Southall with 'LH' on it in big letters on the approach to R23 is finally being demolished, as the last part of the old Southall Gas Works left.
Demolition started a few weeks ago, and as of this morning the top third or so is now gone, with only the bottom half of the 'LH' now visible.

[DaveReidUK]

I always thought it was there to help Lufthansa pilots :O

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/640x480/173008_49ac10b8_d353c6e7ca13230e1af09b2d2fb8bf0fa16f17ba.jpg

[GeeRam]

I always thought it was there to help Lufthansa pilots :O

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/640x480/173008_49ac10b8_d353c6e7ca13230e1af09b2d2fb8bf0fa16f17ba.jpg

Don't think the Luftwaffe, I mean Lufthansa :E ever needed our help in finding places in the UK.......

Pan Am and Air India on the other hand.............. :ok:

[G-ARZG]

Lufthansa 707 came close on 28 April 1964, Wiki tells us. Only a red flare from ATC prevented them joining this less-than-illustrious club. "There but for the grace of Gott.."

[DaveReidUK]

Lufthansa 707 came close on 28 April 1964, Wiki tells us. Only a red flare from ATC prevented them joining this less-than-illustrious club. "There but for the grace of Gott.."

Some pilots just won't take "NO" for an answer. :O

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/568x379/landmark_4_a9ce3451bdfce43277f8e73ea9000bd2a148471b.jpg

[briani]

hello - brings back happy memories - I was a Radio Mech. based in the wooden hut which appears in front of the fire station, on the apron. Access was through a pedestrian tunnel which ran from the Central Terminal building surfacing just behind the Viscount.

[Chris Scott]

[...] Runway 05R/23L survived for another 30-odd years, as per my previous post, until 2002.

In the 1990s, BTW, what was by then designated simply Rwy 23 was available for landing only and its reciprocal was not available, except for taxiing.

It may have been mentioned before but in the summer of 1955 long-haul ops were still conducted from marquees and huts on the North side. Seemed quite primitive - even to those of us arriving from darkest Africa. I see that there used to be a parallel taxiway north of the contemporary Rwy 10L/28R. Was the North terminal north of that taxiway?

[DaveReidUK]

In the 1990s, BTW, what was by then designated simply Rwy 23 was available for landing only and its reciprocal was not available, except for taxiing.

Yes, in an earlier thread the consensus was that 05 was officially withdrawn in 1993, although it probably hadn't been used for some time prior to that. It was certainly in use when Terminal 4 opened in 1986, but obviously not by the time the T4 remote stands (441-457) were opened.

It may have been mentioned before but in the summer of 1955 long-haul ops were still conducted from marquees and huts on the North side. Seemed quite primitive - even to those of us arriving from darkest Africa. I see that there used to be a parallel taxiway north of the contemporary Rwy 10L/28R. Was the North terminal north of that taxiway?

The terminal, and main apron, were to the north of the parallel taxiway, with a smaller apron to the south.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/871x507/northside_view_reduced__616612ad486bfac7bef82c876753cc3590e3 83c2.jpg

[treadigraph]

Re 23/05, I did see 23 in use often during my visits to the Queen's Building in the '70s/'80s but never 05.

Odd memory just popped up of a BA 747 landing on 23 (only widebody I can recall seeing doing so) and a large sheet of flame emanating briefly from No 4 while reverse thrust was in action.

[kcockayne]

Re 23/05, I did see 23 in use often during my visits to the Queen's Building in the '70s/'80s but never 05.

Odd memory just popped up of a BA 747 landing on 23 (only widebody I can recall seeing doing so) and a large sheet of flame emanating briefly from No 4 while reverse thrust was in action.
I remember seeing a KLM DC8-60 srs. going downwind LH for 05R in 1971/72 , viewed whilst on duty at LATCC, West Drayton. It was during a period of strong NE gales. Wasn’t the only a/c using 05 that day !

[Meikleour]

I have landed twice on 05 at LHR : Oct 1974 suspected burst tyre and May 1975 unusually strong wind.

[dixi188]

I seem to recall in the '90s that 23 was available for landing if winds were SW above 20kts or so, but 1 or 2 hours notice was required to clear the T4 remote stands.

[Chris Scott]

I remember seeing a KLM DC8-60 srs. going downwind LH for 05R in 1971/72 , viewed whilst on duty at LATCC, West Drayton. It was during a period of strong NE gales. Wasn’t the only a/c using 05 that day !




Many of you will remember that G-ARWE, which had experienced an engine fire after take-off on Rwy 28L in April 1968, expedited a landing on the then Rwy 05R. From afar, the subsequent pall of smoke was a chilling sight.

Conditions favouring the use of the comparatively-short Rwy 23 for landing by large a/c in the 1990s would obviously involve a limiting crosswind component on the westerly runways. That could be a southerly W/V gusting over about 30 kt, but more commonly a SSW, with gusts from the SW. In the case of a south-westerly, the gusts tend to come from the WSW, which reduces the advantage of Rwy 23. Similarly, in the days when Rwy 05 was still available, the most benefit over the easterly runways would have been when the W/V was between north and NNE.

Today, the absence in South-East England of any large runway catering for a southerly or northerly gale is less than ideal, although Stansted sometimes does the job. In that respect, Heathrow has lost the plot. Whereas the Dutch have Schiphol...

[DaveReidUK]

Today, the absence in South-East England of any large runway catering for a southerly or northerly gale is less than ideal, although Stansted sometimes does the job. In that respect, Heathrow has lost the plot. Whereas the Dutch have Schiphol...

Interestingly, in a strong SW wind, Heathrow disregards the runway alternation programme and uses 27L for all landings, because the BA 747 hangars can cause unpredictable gusts on the 27R final approach.

[topoverhaul]

I landed on 05 at 1610 on 19 Nov 1991 after 20 minutes in the hold and an SRA from around the Southampton area. Not sure if it was used after that but as mentioned above, was not abandoned until 1993.

[Chris Scott]

I landed on 05 at 1610 on 19 Nov 1991 after 20 minutes in the hold and an SRA from around the Southampton area. Not sure if it was used after that but as mentioned above, was not abandoned until 1993.

An approach that has evidently stuck in your mind in the succeeding years... What was the W/V?

Dave,
Yes, in a strong sou'wester 27R is a bit like Rwy 27/26 at Gatwick used to be before they removed the 1960s hangars from the south side of the landing threshold. Sporting...

[snooky]

I remember one winters evening about 1985 a trident choosing to use 05 for landing and causing some delays. Apparently the captain wished to be flying the last trident to land on 05.

[Peter47]

I don't remember the date but I certainly remember seeing a concorde overhead coming into Heathrow at Northolt Park station one day in the 90s.

[Groundloop]

I remember once hearing Heathrow Tower telling an Air France Caravelle on approach to 23 to "Keep your speed up, I have a Concorde behind you".

[22/04]

Landed 23 in a PIA 747 c.1990

[Airbanda]

Lived in or around Harrow over various periods between 1980 and 1986, part of it on Bessborough Rd looking towards Harrow Hill. If the landing runway was 23 we'd get a constant procession of airliners, including widebodies and Concordes, passing our front window.

Later, using the commuter service from Euston, would be aware of odd days when there was a stream of airliners crossing the line in Kenton area. Stopped by mid nineties IIRC.

[Fokkerwokker]

During strong southerly, south westerlies I landed on RW23 a few times in my GF TriMoth.
Twas interesting!

[seafire6b]

Back in November 1969 and never having departed from that runway before, I was happily surprised to note our 707 was taxying out for take-off from 23L, giving me some new views during our take-off roll. Then, very soon afterwards, despite my previous LHR flights, it was another new experience to see the ''LH'' beacon flashing past beneath us.

Incidentally, they say these things come in threes - later, all of us passengers (except one!) and also the crew, were extremely surprised to learn we would actually be en-route to Havana!

.

[pax britanica]

Never landed on 23 but returning from our honeymoon in 1977 England was gripped in some bitter weather and a strong NE wind meant our T3 from faro landed on 05. We seemed to fly right over head LHR at maybe 6000 ft turning left to the north of the airport then a long downwind leg to the west before turning back towards final approach . I think from my airband radio days they used a radar controller based approach with constant changes in heading of a few degrees and advice as to above or below glideslope not ILS as 05 didnt have it ( the wooden approach light poles were a give away that 05 was the Cinderella of LHRs runways )

Of course stretching my memory back further I can remember lots of take offs and landings on the parallel 23R/05L mostly prop stuff and a vague recollection of a BA DC3 Dakota landing over Bedfont on the long long gone Se-NW runway that i think went when T3 was built.

[PAXboy]

Only time I was on 23 was a landing in a Manx Viscount from IOM! As they were phased out in 1988, this was a couple of years before.

[chevvron]

A 2nm termination range SRA was the only way of making an instrument approach to runway 05R although I stand to be corrected.
The controller would pass advisory heights or altitudes at 1nm intervals rather than saying above or below the glidepath.
Wooden approach light poles were in common use at many airfields; they had to be 'frangible' ie would collapse easily if accidentally touched by an aircraft.

[DaveReidUK]

and a vague recollection of a BA DC3 Dakota landing over Bedfont on the long long gone Se-NW runway that i think went when T3 was built.

Heathrow has (had) three now long gone SE/NW runways over the years. The first disappeared to make room for the Central Area and was replaced with a parallel one further west, which in turn was closed when Pier 7 was added to Terminal 3. The third one went, I think, when T1 was being built.

[pax britanica]

Chevron
thinking about it a bit I seem to remember there was a more accurate aid than SRA -Precsion something radar?, where the controller gave a running commentary of turn right 3 degrees , just below the glide etc . all very small corrections. (of course I can remember that from 196X but not what i had for breakfast today )

ATC also asked aircraft to report crossing the Thames which I think was at Laleham nr Staines -no outer marker on that runway and also reminded the crew to check wheels down and locked . At some point nearer the runway they just announced cleared to land approach completed and I assume left it to the crew to decide to land or not at decision height
The other thing about 05 R was that the approach passed over a massive fuel farm at about 100-150 ft so any undershot was going to end in a mega catastrophe.

[kcockayne]

Chevron
thinking about it a bit I seem to remember there was a more accurate aid than SRA -Precsion something radar?, where the controller gave a running commentary of turn right 3 degrees , just below the glide etc . all very small corrections. (of course I can remember that from 196X but not what i had for breakfast today )

ATC also asked aircraft to report crossing the Thames which I think was at Laleham nr Staines -no outer marker on that runway and also reminded the crew to check wheels down and locked . At some point nearer the runway they just announced cleared to land approach completed and I assume left it to the crew to decide to land or not at decision height
The other thing about 05 R was that the approach passed over a massive fuel farm at about 100-150 ft so any undershot was going to end in a mega catastrophe.
You will be referring to Precision Approach Radar (PAR); which had, in addition to the horizontal radar map & guidance, also a vertical radar showing the descent profile of the a/c - so enabling the controller to give accurate checks to the a/c in range, track & height. As opposed to the Surveillance Radar Approach; which could not give an accurate check as to whether the a/c was on the correct descent profile - only an advisory height based on the distance from touchdown & associated height based on a 3 degree glide path.

[GeeRam]

Lived in or around Harrow over various periods between 1980 and 1986, part of it on Bessborough Rd looking towards Harrow Hill. If the landing runway was 23 we'd get a constant procession of airliners, including widebodies and Concordes, passing our front window.

Later, using the commuter service from Euston, would be aware of odd days when there was a stream of airliners crossing the line in Kenton area. Stopped by mid nineties IIRC.

As mentioned already, landing on R23 didn't officially stop until 2002.

I lived right under the R23 flightpath in Greenford, from the early 60's right up until the last use in 2002 (in two different houses, but both under the flightpath)

As a kid I used to spend hours sitting at my bedroom window watching the line of aircraft coming in from the north-east.

Don't ever recall any take-off's on 05 though, and certainly never saw a landing on 05 during my time on site building T4 during the summer of '81, and back there again through 1983-4.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I did a few take-offs and landings on 05 when I was an ATCO there - always a bit scary!!

[DaveReidUK]

The terminal, and main apron, were to the north of the parallel taxiway, with a smaller apron to the south.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/871x507/northside_view_reduced__616612ad486bfac7bef82c876753cc3590e3 83c2.jpg

While idly perusing Google Maps' aerial view of the current Heathrow, I was delighted to discover that the southern part of the original apron (top centre of the photo, with what looks like a lone DC-3 parked) is still intact, as is the taxiway that used to connect it to the runway.

The current Northern Perimeter Road runs along the line of the old parallel taxiway at that point, and the apron is the tarmac area roughly opposite the Renaissance Hotel's main car park.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/637x262/old_northern_apron_18e5b28bb4f42e30584b54e5f6270dba9353ccba. jpg

[Bergerie1]

Does anyone have some pictures of the old BOAC building 221? It was on the north side and used for the crew reporting offices up until Terminal 3 was built.

[dixi188]

GE historic imagery goes back to 1945 although I think it is more like 1950. There are several old airliners visible on the north apron.
Who can identify them?

[KING6024]

Nah wasn't me, but I remember the tunnel was put in about '54 or '55. My parents used to take me to 'London Airport' by bus from our home in South Bucks during school holidays (Greenline [713?]from Chesham to Uxbridge then red LT bus, returning by green LT bus to Slough then the 353 back to Chesham). In the early days before the tunnel we got off the bus on the Bath Road and would walk across a taxiway to get to the public enclosure; later we walked though the tunnel (it was allowed in the early days but not now).
The tunnel was I believe constructed using the 'cut and cover' method rather than by boring; I think there was an airborne illustration in the 'Eagle Book of Aircraft' c1956.
I used to cycle from Watford and through the tunnel when it was first open and spend the day on the roof of the Queen Elizabeth building,I seem to recollect there was an announcer detailing all the movements.I was about 13/14 at the time.

[DaveReidUK]

Does anyone have some pictures of the old BOAC building 221? It was on the north side and used for the crew reporting offices up until Terminal 3 was built.

Alas no, but I remember it well. My girlfriend (now my wife) worked in BOAC Flight Ops Planning, next door in Building 224.

[WHBM]

If only BAA had portrayed the third runway as a "safety realignment of 23" rather than a "new" third runway, they would have gained about 20 years over the HACAN lot.



The terminal, and main apron, were to the north of the parallel taxiway, with a smaller apron to the south
Article in Propliner magazine, quite a while ago, by someone who was in Ground Control in the 1950s, described these arrangements. The apron coaches were operated under contract by London Transport, using the vehicles which also did the run to Central London, or the previous generation of these. It was regarded as easy work compared to regular bus driving, so tended to be staffed by the most senior drivers, close to retirement. They would hesitantly pick their way across and around the live taxyway, and found this new-fangled radio thing in the cab a bit beyond them, or even the stand numbers. In winter rain and fog, with aircraft landing lights blaring at them, let alone props whizzing round, there were a number of interesting encounters.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

In reply to the original questions, Heathrow looks much as always - a huge building site with its own airfield!

[pax britanica]

HD you are dead right. I wonder if there has been a day in the life of LHR since say 1960 when there wasnt a large (lets say equivalent to a 6 story office block or bigger) going on somewhere on the airport or failing that something akin to a pretty large piece of roadworks.

Its abi of an irony that the original LHR was one of the few UK Gov projects that started out with a huge amount of excess capcity for movements and a huge amount of development space for longer runways (the 09/27s) and terminals . Of course that couldnt last and so from some point, in the 80s, maybe expansion on a strategic scale, was wilfully ignored.
What no one in politics seems to understand is that airports are all about scale and connectivity and ideas like 'runways in the SE of England being effectively interchangeable is nonsense. No one would look at growth on the London to Manchester rail route and say lets build an extra line to Leeds-they are all in the North and can be substituted.

So once you have a big hub airport you have to expand it - improving capacity at a secondary airport is no use at all nor is building new airport miles from anywhere going to work because you have to move tens of thousands of people and build ultra expensive new rail links through congested suburbs to reach it causing as much disruptionsthe airport itself.

[chevvron]

In reply to the original questions, Heathrow looks much as always - a huge building site with its own airfield!
In all the years I visited I always wondered 'will they ever finish building it?'

[Brian 48nav]

Chevvron,

Not Green Line route 713, that IIRC came through South Wimbledon from Dorking ( ? ) on its way through London to Dunstable or was it Luton? It was paired with route 712.

I think yours may have been 703 or one of the other numbers before 710. My Green Line history book is somewhere in a cardboard box along with all my bus and aeroplane books from the 50s!

[chevvron]

Chevvron,

Not Green Line route 713, that IIRC came through South Wimbledon from Dorking ( ? ) on its way through London to Dunstable or was it Luton? It was paired with route 712.

I think yours may have been 703 or one of the other numbers before 710. My Green Line history book is somewhere in a cardboard box along with all my bus and aeroplane books from the 50s!
You're probably right; its so long since I lived in Chesham I can't remember.
By the way, I cancelled my Arsenal direct debit several months ago and they've now sent me a Silver membership card; what should I do?https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif

[Brian 48nav]

chevvron

Continuing our thread drift - I got to the top of the Red Membership several years ago to be told I was being upgraded to Silver. I said I was never going to use the extra benefits, particularly as I hope never to go to London again and asked to remain on the Red list. Not possible they replied, so I cancelled my membership. Now they are trying to get me to rejoin! BBC Breakfast this morning - G reveals he is an Arsenal fan! Top man!

Back to LHR - hindsight is a wonderful thing but what a shame that somewhere like Blackbushe didn't become the capital's main airport.

[chevvron]

chevvron

Continuing our thread drift - I got to the top of the Red Membership several years ago to be told I was being upgraded to Silver. I said I was never going to use the extra benefits, particularly as I hope never to go to London again and asked to remain on the Red list. Not possible they replied, so I cancelled my membership. Now they are trying to get me to rejoin! BBC Breakfast this morning - G reveals he is an Arsenal fan! Top man!

Back to LHR - hindsight is a wonderful thing but what a shame that somewhere like Blackbushe didn't become the capital's main airport.
The usual government interference. Shortly after the US Navy spent loadsa money developing a European airbase at Blackbushe, Gatwick opened but because of its horrendous weather record (compared to Blackbushe, which had always been a 'No 1 Div' for Heathrow traffic) no-one wanted to move there so the decision was made to close Blackbushe in order to force the independent airlines to move to Gatwick.
The US D of D even offered to fund an extension of Blackbushes main runway to 10,000ft and build a parallel 7,000ft runway, but to no avail; Gatwick was there and people were gonna use it!