Sky Air World Rwy Excursion

[feenix]

Rumour has it that Sky ran their E-170 off the runway at HIR causing tyre damage. Anyone heard anything more

[witwiw]

Heard likewise, but information is a bit short on the ground. Must be someone who knows .....

[cnic]

just spoke to a friend that was on the flight, the plane did a go around on the first attempt to land. The second attempt was rough with loud bangs and bumps with the aircraft swerving sideways and fish tailing, then they taxied normally to the gate. In the light of day it appears that they missed the runway and the bangs and bumps were the aircraft hitting runway lights and blowing tyres, also the wing has recieved damage from hitting the ground. From what I was told everyone in Honiara thinks they were lucky to be in one piece today, and that the aircraft will need major work before it can fly.

[sayallafter]

Any idea of the conditions at the time and the runway used

Also wondering if the E170 have the fuel for a diversion (guessing Santo at around 640 miles) after already having one shot or would have been committed to landing at HIR.

Sincerely hope the reports of damage are over stated.

Unfortunately the BNE - HIR route has not been all that kind to the SAW operation.

[sayallafter]

Would say that SAW would have had the SON WX, it would have to have been one of the flight plan ETP diversion airfields. Somehow I would think that SAW would not have got that wrong!!

Also if an immediate diversion was required to make SON, no problems with the legalities there, at least the fuel is there for the approach and the divert ............anyway appears you answered my question, one shot and still have the fuel for a 650mile divert, not bad after what must be almost a 3 hours flight.

Regards Munda as an alternate....that would have to be an issue with CASA surely, Airline Ops approval is their domain and as they do the approvals, surely, they would have monitered the divert destinations.

[OFFSET 2R]

I was also in the area when the aircraft diverted, they immediately asked for the latest WX for SON, I would have thought that that would be the most prudent thing to do.

You would have diverted relying only on your forecast no doubt.

Have flown the 737, and on the rare occasion have diverted after one approach. No big deal.

We all know the 172 won't do 650 nms. The fact you call yourself down3gr33ns, does that mean you have a retractable rating?

You are the only one to use the term "defacto alternate"

Sorry, as a professional pilot, that does not compute.


Offset

[OFFSET 2R]

1. Yes they requested a TAF and actual!, what would you have asked for?

2. Yes what other reason would I have diverted for?

3. Yes, your termonilogy!

4. C172, is it the aircraft type you are on at the moment?

Offset

[OFFSET 2R]

"As an aside, there was significant industry talk that Munda was being used as a defacto alternate - a bit of a concern as it is a sub-standard (jet) strip, no navaids, difficulty in getting TAF's etc. Can anyone confirm??"

"Significant industry talk" What does that mean? You with your pissed friends at the bar!

"Can any one confirm??" anyone at the bar confirm what what was said!

What a joke!

Offset

[once bitten]

I'm sorry ... but does anyone yet have any FACTS relating to this alleged incident?

[sayallafter]

I think the term is "TECHNICAL" alternate, not DEFACTO.

With regards WX requests, well isn't that what professional crew do, so points on the board for that one.

d3gr33ns, whilst I would be the first to admit that the most practical minimum size aircraft for the BNE - HIR - BNE route would be a 733, (Good on Our Airline) the fact remains that most commercial jets (using ETP. divert points etc) could be planned.

The fact that the E170 could shoot the HIR approach , and still divert to SON is pretty impressive,

BUT I guess that one needs to look at the payoad being diverted. Flt crew may look at KG per mile, but the BCounters look at things differently..

Must say, I have always wondered why SAW has such a hard-on for the BNE - HIR - BNE route.

Low yield and now this!

[sayallafter]

I am sure that the facts will dribble in and eventually hit the press..... but I would have to suggest that cnic, witwiw and feenix may be the most accurate and up to date reference to this incident in the short term.

[feenix]

Offset 2R ,have you not had your medication or am I missing something. The post was about an incident in Hir involving E170 operated by SAW. Instead you start bad mouthing Down 3gr33ns. In answer to your answers when I divert I ask for actual wx not a TAF I should already have. Diversions occur for all sort of reasons and not just wx and for the life of me I don't know where you got that Down3 gr33ns flies a 172 as he didn't say so and it is not in his profile. So therefore offer something constructive to the original post or go back to GA and your 172's

[feenix]

I heard further last night that the aircraft taxied in normally and it was the ground engineer who found the tyre damage and grounded the aircraft which seems to back up cnic's post. It must still be unservicable as I noted Our Airline B737 did their Emerald flight last night.

[Ralph the Bong]

I can see Offsets' point here: You either have a legally held Alternate, or you dont. Black and white, simple.

It sihts me to tears to hear this rot like 'Technical Alternate", "De-facto Alternte" and the like. I've read Jepps and AIP, AERAD you name it and there is not one, NOT ONE, reference to a "technical" alternate.

The use of these terms should really be considered a CRM 'red flag'.

[sthaussiepilot]

The SkyAirWorld Pilots involved acted accordingly....

They dealt with the situation as best as possible.

The weather was definatly not the best of weather it was rather lousy.

The Aircraft will need some work, but will be up and running soon-ish

____________________________________________________________ __

[captaintunedog777]

Amateurs :cool:

[sthaussiepilot]

They were not amatures...

They delt with the situation accordingly, and as best as possible for this situation.

[Black Maria]

They delt with the situation accordingly, and as best as possible for this situation.

sthaussie, can you elaborate as to what the situation was?

[sthaussiepilot]

Lets just leave it at Bad Weather

[pervert]

Bad Wx.... Broken at 400', pissing rain, CB's, VOR intermittent, can't understand a word from Henderson flight service, 2 Otters and a helicopter with ETA's the same as you and wait for it their VFR, this is a standard bad day at HIR.

I almost forgot to mention the dog's there is always dog's.

[Black Maria]

Perv,

what a great (and sadly somewhat accurate!!!) description.
ROFLMAO :D

[witwiw]

From the local newspaper, for interest.

solomonstarnews.com - Jet goes off runway in Honiara storm (http://solomonstarnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2476&change=71&changeown=78&Itemid=26)

[Capn Bloggs]

Air traffic controllers helping pilots land when the weather is bad. They obviously don't work for AsA! :}:E

Just kidding!!!! :p

[once bitten]

FYI ...

solomonstarnews.com - Jet goes off runway in Honiara storm (http://solomonstarnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2476&change=71&changeown=78&Itemid=26)

[TheNews]

HEY Ralph The Bong -
It is not always as simple & black & white as you seem to believe. There are plenty of operations on this planet (maybe outside of your area of operation) where the 'legally held alternate' (the only one suitable on paper) is not necessarily the best / safest place to divert to in practice - and that fact is known before departure.
Many, many operators rely on this principle to be able (a) to operate according to the law (as opposed to not operating at all) and (b) still operate with maximum safety margin possible.

[Sal-e]

I am going to be very blunt about this.
This is what happens when governments and certain business individuals with personal interests/agendas play around with aviation in this part of the world.
Time and time again, many many wiser advice had touched this on the matter of the correct type for this region. The 737 has had decades of experience serving the people of the Solomons. The opportunities were made available again and again but were resisted again and again by the few idiots who are out to make a name (and fortune) for themselves. Pressure has been put on the pilots in this instance to land. It will happen again, possibly with disasterous results.
I said I was going to be blunt. But peoples lives are at stake here.

[lordofthewings]

Whats the max fuel a 170 can carry? what would be the fuel load generally over the top in HRI? I would have thought you would leave Aus with full tanks as fuel is cheaper in Aus, the turnaround time in HRI could be quicker or really just have less complications and if you couldnt get in leave enough fuel to get you to Santo, Vila(30 more minutes) or even Noumea.

[O2]

Good luck finding someone to turn the lights on in Santo.....

I'd be using Vila/Noumea

[witwiw]

If, as it has been suggested, the E170 can only make one approach before heading immediately to the alternate, then why did a second approach get made, particularly when there were reported storms? Would seem to be putting all your eggs in one basket at the expense of maintaining a safer option. Once committed to a second approach then it appears the alternate provision is seriously compromised - and consequently more stress for the drivers. From what I recall of the E170 operation when it was being done for Solair, there were always payload limits (a/c was never able to leave BNE with more than about 50 pax) so's they could take full tanks, hence it doesn't seem too swish in the endurance area.

Was the second approach made without waiting for a possible improvement in the weather, if so could possibly indicate a bit of "get-in-itis" due not having the fuel to do so? Or maybe the alternate had turned to poop as well!!

Any updates on the damage to the aircraft?

What time did this happen? Newspaper report said 8:00pm so I question the following:
2 Otters and a helicopter with ETA's the same as you and wait for it their VFR

[captaintunedog777]

Seriously. Listen to you clowns. This is all bloody speculation who the f$%& knows what went on unless you speak to the crew or someone else in the know. Have you people got too much time on your hands. Maybe this, maybe that, i heard that etc etc etc

I am totally convinced the future of aviation in Australia is in the s%^$t if anyone of u actually works in the industry.

[nick2007]

Seriously. Listen to you clowns. This is all bloody speculation who the f$%& knows what went on unless you speak to the crew or someone else in the know.


well said... but it happens all the time on these forums, it is a "rumour network" after all.

[lordofthewings]

captaintunedog777, bit touchy on the subject going from your response.
must say as an engineer having been a flying spanner around the pacific, its nice to know who your flying with, and there experiences and history for this very reason. It is a rumour network, but youd be supprised how usefull some of the info is

LOW

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

...It is a rumour network, but youd be supprised how usefull some of the info is...

I'd be very surprised actually, however I wouldn't be surprised at how much of it was bollocks though! :hmm:

Let's wait for more info from someone who actually knows something worth passing on, shall we, instead of just speculators or people with an agenda! :oh:

Good post captaintunedog777! :ok:

[Black Maria]

witwiw

I think you might find that;

Originally posted by pervert...........2 Otters and a helicopter with ETA's the same as you and wait for it their VFR

was maybe a tongue in cheek generalization of ops normal at Henderson, rather than anything factual about this incident.


At least I took it that way.

[witwiw]

OK, looked at that way, maybe. However, posted immediately after sthaussiepilot's post it initially had the appearance as confirmation of the circumstances etc.

[sthaussiepilot]

As it was posted, this did happen.

I informed you guys as much was deemed I was allowed to reveal.

captaintunedog777, I belive many people here (myslelf included) are in the Aviation Industy, many as Pilots..

Also I spoke to both of the Pilots aboard the Aircraft.

(And No Sorry, but I will not elaborate more on this at the moment, or it could be my job, and I might loose the pilots of that flight as my mates)

[tipsy2]

this is a high capacity aircraft that has had an incident, like Qantas, or many other operators


The operator is not "like QANTAS" inspite of some flight numbers.

There is no similarity, none what so ever.

tipsy:=

[lucky101]

From a reliable source, there was some gouging and cuts in one tyre from striking a runway edge light ( or two ), so both wheels on that leg were replaced and aircraft returned to service.

[Centaurus]

It is many years since I operated into Honiara with a 737-200. Arriving late in the evening before last light with heavy rain in the vicinity was always a bit worrying. If I recall there were either no runway lights then or if there were, they were unreliable. If you missed out on the first approach due blinding rain on the windscreen then the decision had to be made whether to have another go and risk not getting in - or diverting immediately to whatever was the nominated alternate.

Of course the decision of when to divert was made before top of descent so there would be no dithering around at low altitude of will I or won't I risk another go at landing. In any case it didn't really matter what the weather was like at HIR - what was vital was the weather at the nominated alternate.

Regardless of the politics implied to by some respondents here, I must say I sympathise with the crew in their situation of low cloud and rain and whether or not to divert after the initial attempt to land. It was my experience of bad weather night arrivals at HIR that the weather conditions rarely improved for a couple of hours - not like Australian type Cb where you could hang around for 15 minutes until the heavy rain abated and you could most likely get in. Until the next wave of heavy rain came through. Nauru weather in the wet season was that type. But not HIR - that stuff stayed there for hours.
Must apologise if this is a bit of a nostagic ramble for the good old days of dicing with HIR weather but like I said I am glad I wasn't flying that night into HIR.

[galdian]

AAAAAHHHHHH....what the heck, here's the grenade

Just wondering what Lion Air think of their recent purchase (SAW) flying like ........... well, they fly themselves??

Suspect Lion may have bought in primarily as an entry to Oz operation, partly to associate with a country less associated with incidents/accidents than themselves.
Maybe Business Stragegy 101 that didn't quite work out as expected. :)

Very glad all minimal damage, corperate damage??????????????

Cheers all.

[lordofthewings]

The only people that give a toss about the pacific islands, are people that will be able to line there pockets like anything else..You SALe are most likely one of these.
Why do people get so upset when they are compared to Qantas, unfortunately QF is the benchmark, like it or not.

[mates rates]

Casa needs to take a very close look at the fuel policies of these operators.This is a 3rd world operation with unreliable wx forecasts and navigation facilities.The PIC is on his own!!The 737-200 is a very marginal operation on HIR.Don't know about the E170 but you need a genuine alternate and fuel to get there.If that means sacrificing payload to carry the PIC's minimum fuel effecting profit margins YOUR COMMERCIAL DEPARTMENT HAS THE WRONG AIRCRAFT.

[lordofthewings]

Mates rates you are spot on

[ithinkso]

Mates Rates has got it in one. It is unbelievable that SAW would use Santo as an alternate. As most people who operate in the area know, Santo is unmanned at night. There is no PAL system to activate the lights.

This means the nearest alternate is Vila. Honiara approaches generally get you down to around 450' Agl in a Cat C aircraft. The 170 maybe a Cat B, This results in even lower weather minima.

To be frank, if you cant get in from 450', on a straight in approach, then you are going to have no chance getting into Vila, even if the weather is slightly marginal.

The only answer is Noumea.

From reports,(insider), the aircraft arrived at the terminal with 3 tonnes left in the tanks. This will get you nowhere near Noumea. In fact it will only get you barely to Santo.

The reason why the aircraft didnt divert, is simple, they couldn't. It would have been worse if they had diverted to find Santo unmanned. If they had fuel they would then proceed to Vila, also to find it unmanned until 30 minutes prior to the arrival of the Air Van boeing, which is always around midnight.

This sounds remarkably like a near death experience.

(ps: Mundah as an altenate...wow, last time I was there there was still live ordinance lying around the fringes of the tarmac, take a walk and have a look)

(pps: Gouging on one tyre?? The damage was caused by the tyreS hitting the concrete blocks the lights are set in. Minimal damage doesnt take days to repair. The aircraft was required to return to Aust with no pax. Does this suggest to you that it was just a couple of blown tyres,????? get real)

[blackbandit]

Very impressive skid marks. VERY IMPRESSIVE INDEED!

[pervert]

Indeed my good man!....... Minima....keep her comin down.:D

[_SKYGOD_]

Tea anyone?...No?...ahh

[pervert]

Personaly I give us 1 chance in 3!

[_SKYGOD_]

One ping Vasili, one ping only.

[Capn Bloggs]

Very impressive skid marks. VERY IMPRESSIVE INDEED!
C'mon! Where are the pics???

[blackbandit]

Too far to walk out, too hot, and basically just too damn lazy on my behalf, I mean, I am black after all

[pervert]

Black......your halfcast, your light brown.

[sthaussiepilot]

:ugh::ugh::mad::mad:

Sal-E, There is NO Issue with the Embraer 170 (or in any other case the 190, or 145) the issue here was the landing.

And then the Fuel....

There is NO issue with the aircraft, (from what the posts say) it is just how the aircraft is used....................................


(Sorry for the later reply, too many in between, so I figued Id add this.... haha)

Ithinkso,

Yes I was told the same basic thing, was was unable to release more information on it, but I guess since its out... Oh well...

[Windy Chester]

Honiara seems to be one of those places where all those holes in the cheese seem to line up, especially at night ,unless things have changed recently.
You get a weather forecast an hour before, to find that it is nothing like what you experience on arrival. You never seem to know which navaids are actually going to be working when you arrive there. You arrive at night to find you can hardly see the runway, due to the high grass covering them. The list goes on.

[Sal-e]

The former Air Nauru has never diverted from HIR in over thirty years. There has been numerous missed approaches but never a diversion. You can quote me on this. Moral of the story? B737-300 or later series is the ideal type for HIR with regards to payload and sufficient alternate fuel requirements.
Lordoftheringhole, you are wrong again. I do not have vested interested as you so accuse. Just a pacific islander who is fed up with operators run by the ones wanting to line their pockets using the wrong equipment at great expence to a nation.

[ithinkso]

I have personally heard the old "Air Nauru" simply overfly because they didnt think they could get in. Get real Sal-e. Those sort of remarks only reduce any level of credibility you may have once had.

Honiara in itself, is NOT a difficult airport. It has straight in approaches with low minimas. Its only gotcha is its isolation, and the fact that its' most appropriate alternate, Vila, IS a difficult airport that is much more likely to suffer weather problems and approach difficulties.

TID EDIT

[feenix]

Until recently when Air Nauru achieved pax rights again they always overflew HIR unless they landed for a fuel stop. I have only been in the Pacific region for about 10 years and do not know of any AN HIR diversions or overflies due wx. Not trying to defend Sale because I can't go back that far but don't mistake tracking over HIR enroute to INU as an unintentional overfly.

[myshoutcaptain]

ironic as it may seem , but has anyone seen page 2 of the latest Embraer Operational Support newsletter ? :}

[Sal-e]

ithinkso,
now now, what warranted that bit of character assassination?
You are right, the -400 nor the -300 hadn't been in Nauru for thirty years. During the days of the -200, there were in-cruise diversions. Even those at least didn't have to use Santo but Nauru as their alternate.
But never for the -400. Why? Simple. Sufficient reserves for a look-see and a few attempts. How do I know? Because I didn't just 'hear' like you did, I was there from day one. Were you? Stop being a w@nker and a colonialistic, condescending prick.
It's the other dodgy outfits who have vested interest other than what's good for a nation.

TID EDIT

[feenix]

myshout captain I haven't seen it so could you post a copy or tell us where we can read it

[vee tail]

My shout good to see ya keeping up with all the inflight literature. Did ya read last issue of zoo:ok:

[myshoutcaptain]

VeeeeeTail - I most certainly did ... ZOO is a wonderful publication.

Feenix - the article was just explaining the re-release of a DVD/CD-ROM from Embraer titled " Not running off the end ".

it is a concise , straight-forward 20 minute video , a resource designed to serve the needs of Airlines is disseminating prevention techniques and inmprove safety on the E-Jets family

I've looked for a link but can't find one.

[feenix]

Is the 170 back in the air or still grounded

[Sal-e]

I hear that the operator's days into HIR are numbered from a reliable political figure. I say it couldn't happen sooner.

[ithinkso]

Sal-e, you are perhaps a bit idealistic.

These airlines are not about nation building. They are businesses. IF they are unviable, they will simply go away. Make no mistake SkyAir World, if they are unviable, will simply go away.

Air Nauru,( i think its going by the name of Our Airline), will also go away shortly. It is amazing to those who have any intelligence, at all, that if they can't fill one machine, why would they even consider going for a second one. Both of their machines requiring major maintenance in the very near future.

OA, is not a viable airline, it is simply a vote in the UN.

Perhaps Sal-e should leave his comfort zone, and get out and see how the real world works.

You see, most pacific countries, due to lack of education, think they are at the centre of the universe. The world revolves around them, and owes them a future. It's a sad, but nonetheless true statement. Pacifica will continue to be a back water, with small airlines popping up and going broke as long as the indiginous nitwits have their fingers in the till. When they get real and get back the expats, they might have a chance.

So frustrating dealing with the ignorance of people like Sal-e.

[ithinkso]

By the way Sal-e, there was never a diversion to Santo, simply because it was not available for use for aircraft over 19.000kg until maybe 6 years ago. The strip was upgraded to allow the Air Vanuatu 737 to operate into it. One again, this was not for a profit, this was merely a political stunt. Air Vanuatu is still paying for it.

Son ia only available for use by Air Vanuatu's ng via dispensation.

Ps: The reason RON, (the 400 that was repossessed), could have a few goes, and a stooge around, is because it was Fu..ing empty. Full of fuel. Just goes to show that, as always, the unviable entity simply goes away.

TID EDIT

[sthaussiepilot]

SkyAirWorld wont just "go away" it will remain... it is being backed by the Soloman Government, as it has replaced "Soloman Airlines"

It will be needed, at the very worst it would cut flights, however never abandon Honiara (Yet, or in the forseeable future)

And at the worst, it would go back to Charter Operations...

[feenix]

ITHINKSO and STHAUSSIEPILOT
How do you fit so many inaccuracies in only two small posts.
At least some people try to have a go instead of being so called sideline experts like yourselves

TID EDIT

[sthaussiepilot]

I working off of what I'm told, and informed by,

1. SkyAirWorld Employees (Are the only things that I post on here)
2. News (I dont post, as they speculate)
3. Word of Mouth (Is frequently wrong)

And Explain How We're wrong, and what makes you think your right..:mad: As I'm fairly sure that what I post is confirmed by SAW Managment and Pilots!

[donkey punch]

sthaussiepilot you sound like a fool, sky air world has not become SOLOMONS national carrier (You can't even spell!), stop listening to a few hopefuls who have nowhere else to turn. ithinkso sounds like the only one who knows the score. i have seen the loads, i don't think they will last much longer unless someone has deep pockets!

[ithinkso]

There is no Deal witht the Solomon Government. They could be perhaps lining pockets of an opposition member, with a vested interest perhaps.

Solomon airlines is definately alive and remains the national carrier. SkyAir World, will be gone within the next couple of years, especially when Maq Bank wants their money back. They too have another aircraft arriving later in the year. Smart, no work???

As they say: Time to spare, fly Sol Air, Want to die, fly with Sky.

[flightfocus]

Possible Thread Drift On:

Looking at the satellite pics of HIR via Google Maps (date taken unknown) it looks like there is a MASSIVE paved undershoot on Rwy 06.

For those that know - what's with that? :eek:

So did the incident acft land Rwy 06 or Rwy 24?

[Sal-e]

Those were made by the Russian aircraft that Australian Express was using back in 2001 I think.

[pervert]

"it looks like there is a MASSIVE paved undershoot on Rwy 06."

I believe it's what is left of the old runway that didn't get upgraded many moons ago (not the upgrade the Jap's did a few years ago so Solies would sign to let them continue whaling), but it's in such a **** state it's not even counted as stop way now.

"So did the incident acft land Rwy 06 or Rwy 24?"

First go was on 24 then landed on 06, well on the grass next to 06 any way. Close enough is good enough isn’t it.

[Skystar320]

I personally think that the EMB-170 is the wrong type of aircraft for that....

[Johnny_Fabulous]

EMB 170 definately the wrong type.....737NG perfect.

[vee tail]

Sky star good to see you are adding your usual unjustified crap on this thread too:ok:

[sayallafter]

vee tail

Sky star good to see you are adding your usual unjustified crap on this thread too:ok:

I'd say if you read this and the other threads relating to the use of an E170 on a BNE-HIR-BNE route, you would probably see that Skystar320's comment is on the money, which has been pretty well justified by a lot of posters.

BTW, (at least in using a E170 on this route) the saying...."How to make a small fortune out of aviation, .....start with a big one", comes to mind!!!


Happy reading :ok:

[MyNameIsIs]

pervert's right, the undershoot is old runway (at least thats what I've been told when I was there). It's origins I am unsure about but can say one thing: you wouldn't want to try it out! It is in a pretty poor state!


Anyway, I'm keen on some photos.... anyone?


Oh yeah, a few Otters and some chop-chops buzzing around HIR in marginal weather, grass taller than the runway edge lights and dogs on the runway, good times, good times.

[pervert]

I forgot about the grass taller than the runway lights also forgot about the PAPI 1 white 2 pinks and a red......on slope....I think!

I've been told that the length of the runway dates back to WWII then the first time they paved it they paved the whole lot.

[Skystar320]

Sky star good to see you are adding your usual unjustified crap on this thread too

How is that crap? The EMB-170 is completly the wrong type of aircraft to fly this route and its been well documentated!

[Animalclub]

Is the Fosters Tree still there close to the airport approach?