Joyce the new CEO of Qantas

[toolish]

Wow, I think I am first with some news for once

[speedbirdhouse]

Yeah.

Bad news for Qantas that is..........

[QFinsider]

I can't believe it more of the same..
I knew a change was in the wind, but that idiot.

I begin the process of looking for a new job.

[Keg]

What's the source? :{

[S/H 737]

Don't you think it is again interesting timing of the news. D**on again controls a masterfull stroke by announcing the change to save his tail before he is tarred and Lynched for the latest debarcle ....any thoughts ?????

[Merlins Magic]

QANTAS has named Alan Joyce, the head of its Jetstar offshoot, as chief executive of the airline group.
Mr Joyce becomes chief executive designate from today and will take over when outgoing chief Geoff Dixon steps down after the company's annual general meeting in November.

Qantas (qan.ASX:Quote,News) chairman Leigh Clifford said Mr Joyce was an outstanding executive with wide experience in all facets of the airline industry.

"Alan will assume the role of chief executive designate from today and will also join the board of Qantas with immediate effect,'' he said.

"Geoff and Alan will work together over the next four months to ensure a smooth transition and continuity.''

Mr Dixon will remain available to Qantas on a consulting basis until March 31 next year.

Mr Joyce has been with Qantas since 2000.

He previously worked for the defunct domestic carrier Ansett and Ireland's Aer Lingus in senior management roles.

"Alan is, we believe, the best person to take Qantas forward in what is a very challenging environment,'' Mr Clifford said.

Mr Clifford praised Mr Dixon, who he said had led Qantas through numerous challenges since his appointment as chief executive in 2000.

"Qantas has successfully adapted and responded to the myriad challenges the industry has faced since 2001 and is duly recognised as one of the best managed airlines in the world,'' he added.

Meanwhile, it's been revealed that US authorities ordered airlines to check on-board oxygen cylinders just months before a huge hole was torn in a Qantas jumbo jet in mid-air on Friday, nearly causing a disaster.

Officials said an oxygen back-up cylinder is missing from the aircraft, and have ordered Qantas to inspect all such bottles on its fleet of Boeing 747s.

The Qantas Boeing 747 was flying from Hong Kong to Melbourne on Friday when an explosive bang led to a sudden loss of air pressure in the cabin.

The plane, which had originated in London and was carrying 365 passengers and crew, plunged 6,000 metres before stabilising, then made an emergency landing in the Philippines capital Manila.

An investigator from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, Neville Blyth, told reporters in Manila yesterday that an oxygen back-up cylinder was missing.

"It is too early to say whether this was the cause of the explosion,'' Mr Blyth said. "But one of the cylinders which provides back-up oxygen is missing.''

He said investigators had ruled out terrorism.

An initial inquiry would take two to three days and a preliminary report on the findings should be released in two to three months.

Qantas shares closed at $3.49 on Friday.

[chockchucker]

I wonder what Peter Gregg and John Borghetti are thinking this morning?:E


Wouldn't be surprised to see a few resume's being updated.

[Keg]

Out of the frying pan into the fire. :{

I wonder if Alan knows how to expand the business and improve service rather than continuous cut backs on staff and resources?

[steelcraft]

Who will be the new JQ CEO?

[captaintunedog777]

Excellent for the Jetstar boys. May the legacy of Jetstar continue to live and prosper.

[dragon man]

i thought the board was stupid, now i know. The airline is so far gone that they needed to go outside to get a new CEO and start a fresh. Not good for the future.

[oneday_soon]

Interesting timing! With all the unwanted press about the 747 in Manila at the moment, interesting they announce this now. Not trying to divert any attention are they??

[Bumpfoh]

I would suggest a lot of internal movement shortly in the lower and upper management sectors, as Joyce will want to surround himself with yes men and advisers to continue the current smoke and mirror's campaign being ravaged at JQ.

Has a familiar ring to it, just like the GGM ACS (Line Maintenance) at QF engineering!:E

[ron burgandy]

Geez, What's AJ going to do with the 2500 filthy polluted pilots at QF. What a sad day.

[stiffwing]

At least that will secure a resounding NO vote for the LH EBA. Only a fool would accept it in its current form with Joyce getting the nod. We need all the protections that we can get, methinks!

[golfjet744]

what can i say. :yuk: Outstanding decision. Time to give up on that Aussie icon and start looking after number one.

[S/H 737]

Don't you think the long Haul union already delivered a low cost cabin crew to the company seems like they might become the norm, I am not sure if a no vote will get a look in ???

[jet.jackson]

Phuck!Phuck! Phuck!
Joyce is aligned with no one...except Dixon...they are the same height.
There will be some executive resignations in the next few months
Borghetti and Gregg will be pissed off !

[Capt Fathom]

If Qantas was a dog, you'd put it down!

[Transition Layer]

Ah f*ck it!!! The worst possible outcome...a little leprechaun.

[Autobrakes4]

That job "flying rubber dog*#$#" out of Hong Kong is starting to look good now! :{

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

A sad sad day for what once was a great Aussie institution.

:eek: :* :( :{ :ugh: :uhoh: :yuk: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Clipped]

Leigh Clifford said Mr Joyce was an outstanding executive with wide experience in all facets of the airline industry.


Obviously.

He can start by displaying his flying skills then show us how to inspect an oxygen bottle.

OMG, what has Clifford done?:{

[DEFCON4]

Joyce is a dixon clone...short, angry,dysfunctional.
At 42 years old he is going to be around for quite awhile.
Just when you think things at Qantas couldnt get any worse..this happens.
VR is being touted for November....definitely time to go.
Give it 6 months and Qantas will have a new name and livery.

[QFinsider]

It was a perfect time to bring together the organisation. Appoint someone to be force forgood. As the storm clouds gather bringing the staff together would be a good way to face the oncoming challenges. Instead they continue the direction of divide and conquer ably assisted by a short camp wannabe pilot who didn't make the grade...

Sad really

[mohikan]

Every Mainline pilot is a dead man or woman walking.

The JQ guys must be wtting themselves laughing at the opportunities this now presents to them - A380, B747-400 - all on 50% less.

The skys the limit

[flyer_18-737]

Can you all shut up

This is great, Go Joyce

[Islander Jock]

He is not very popular in some airport management circles either.

[assasin8]

My watch must be wrong! The date display says it's July 28th! But now I really know it's April 1st!!!:ugh:

[blackguard]

What are you?.....a relative.
Or has there been a laying on of hands?

[Transition Layer]

I'm pretty sure Flyer_18-737 is "Aircraft" reincarnated...

[genex]

Dear gloom and doomers,

Your new CEO has opened up new routes for the Qantas Group for the first time in recent memory
Helped persuade the Board to buy 787's when previous management had missed the entire 777 era
Fended off low-cost competition and bought a whole new market segment and it's revenue onto Qantas Group premises and airplane
etceteraHis height and accent are only relevant to this topic as insofar as they are the catalyst to show the venom and insularity that inhabits a few small corners of the mainline world.

For those of you who want a good future in JQ and QF and hence rely on an injection of drive and purpose at the very top, this is a great day. Those who prefer to see the downside, even of a win in Lotto....get lives now. This is not a rehearsal.

[AlphaLord]

The appointment of Alan Joyce as the CEO of Qantas is an indication that there was a distinct shortage of suitable applicants.

[Qantas 787]

I think it is a good choice. I have a lot of time for Joyce - I think some f you need to talk a cold shower and cool down.

I am just happy Gregg was not the choice- it would have been a disaster if he got the job. JB wouldn't be happy - this was his chance so I wonder if both will be trying to get jobs elsewhere.

[arkmark]

Boy this makes things look good for Virgin.

As Qantas inevitabely adopts the Low Value Carrier model, all Virgin has to do is have the flexability to move to appeal to the market that QF will inevitabely leave behind.

The LVC model was fine in it's day but it's getting old now.

For all you boys and girls at Qantas this is a sad day.

You might recall that Jet Star's web site used to pay homage to Impulse and it's culture. The minute Joyce began his reign over impulse, he squashed the culture with total disregard for those who had worked so hard for so long to keep the place running through the hardest of times.

This is what you have to look forward to and there is no use fighting it.

As a passenger, my opes are that I will still have some sort of choice in the future not to have o fly the low value model.

[cuzzybro]

FOG, lot's of FOG, Glorious FOG!!!! :}

[Muff Hunter]

To all our brothers at QF...welcome tho the world of the LCC..:sad:

He will not stop until he has driven the T&C's of every pilot in this country into the gutter...

This will be an interesting next couple of years..

[The Professor]

Joyce has proven himself to be able to ballance the demands of the business with strict cost control while growing jetstar substantially. He is viewed within the industry as being extremely capable and like Walsh at BA, is being bought in to wield a cost cutting axe with a sharp edge.


Dixon was not as effective at cost cutting as Joyce will be.

[DutchRoll]

Future Wikipedia entry?

Qantas

Qantas, originally an abbreviation for "Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services", was the largest Australian airline from its small beginnings in 1920 until its breakup and demise in 2010.........

Hey Prof, does that praise for Joyce's abilities include Jetstar flying half empty aeroplanes on its international routes, or cooking the books to hide the cost-shifting to its parent company?

[P51D]

Excellant choice. Can't believe the vitriol and anger of some. Pre-judging Alan before he's been given a chance, nasty personal accusations on all sorts of things with no basis of fact, although I'd like to think professional airline pilots would have more decorum and certainly more balanced views. The world has changed for airlines and if you think the industry will go back to where it was, with fuel costs and carbon trading etc squarely on the agenda, get out and do something else where you'll have just as much time to contemplate why you would have definately been a better choice than Joyce.

[Ka.Boom]

When younger did you have a diet rich in Aluminium?
The cost cutting at qantas has seen service and safety levels plummet.
If Joyce makes any further cuts he will be responsible for a hull loss.
Dixon has only just escaped that depressing eventuality by the skin of his sagging jowel.
Qantas is an unhappy place now.Under Joyce it will become morbidly depressed

[Van Gough]

Who knows? He might be able to balance the cost cutting with paying people what they are worth and re-engage the workforce. :ok:

[Merlins Magic]

Anyone want to make a guess on what GD's Golden Handshake will be worth.

[Mstr Caution]

The jury is out on Joyce for me as QF CEO, I'm going to have to wait & see what transpires.

He is no longer CEO of Jetstar, so his major obligations are now with mainline.

So welcome to mainline Joyce, come & play with the big boys & learn to piss in the long grass with a premium operation & established unions to deal with.

Dixon was worn down by the ALEA's engineers, so what better job could Joyce do?

Unlike Jet*, Qantas is not a protected species hand fed by a parent airline.

As to mainline being transformed into a LCC, I doubt it. I think, as has been in the past there will be a continous focus on cost.

MC:8

[DutchRoll]

.........if you think the industry will go back to where it was, with fuel costs and carbon trading etc squarely on the agenda, get out and do something else.......
Spoken like a true management stooge. No-one seriously expects "the industry to go back where it was".

However Qantas will likely be a sh*t place to work under Joyce. He has absolutely zero respect for employees unless they roll over on everything he says and take it right up the clacker in every possible position. He is not interested in safety in the slightest (that info comes direct from an extremely experience flight-safety pilot who once applied for a high-level safety management position there, then withdrew after the conditions and culture permeating down from Joyce became apparent during discussions about the job).

As for me, I don't need the money, so if Joyce destroys Qantas Mainline by shifting it to a LCC model and thinking Australian mums & dads will still take holidays on budget carriers during a slowing economy and difficult economic circumstances, it'll be sad, but won't have a significant effect on me. I have other things I can do.

[Wod]

Seems a sensible choice to me. Right age; right background; already across the strategic issues; but like anyone else he'll need his share of luck.

Some of the comments here about JQ and Mainline QF miss the boat.

The official, well-publicised, plan has always been to move marginal routes to JQ first, and then expand JQ to pull back market share by exploiting emerging Low Cost markets. Mainline growth was always forecast to be lower (but growth nevertheless ) .

Nett result - group growth and increasing market share. Seems a sensible plan to me.

It's only 787 delivery delays that have slowed it down.

[Mud Skipper]

Here's an extract of an interview he did with CNBC about half a year ago.

It'll be interesting to see how even applied to become a pilot many years ago:}, changes now he's to be in charge and responsible for the whole show or will the perceived balance of power Geoff vs Marg. reverse with Leigh vs Alan.
How absolutely controlling will he be or will the board under Clifford be more hands on than perhaps missing in action in the past?

Perhaps it'll be interesting to re-read this interview in six months time.

CNBC PODCAST

Welcome to Managing Asia I’m Christine Tung

The low-cost airline industry is picking up here in Asia but so is competition.
One late starter, Jetstar Airways, has managed to stay profitable from the start.
Today we meet the man navigating the Australian budget carrier.

Alan Joyce is a high flyer in every sense of the word, his familiar with airports flying at least once a week to oversee his companies operations, he is the CEO of Jetstar Airways, the low-cost subsidiary of Australian airline Qantas. Joyce who has been in Aviation for 19 years says he’s hooked on the industry, even applied to become a pilot many years ago.

Joyce; I think when you get the smell of jet fuel in your nostrils you get addicted to the industry. I’ve now been 20 years just about in the industry and I started straight out of university and have never looked back.
We have a benefit we believe in new aircraft

Tung; Joyce didn’t make it as a pilot but his career took off. He worked for Irish airlines Air Lingus before joining Australian airlines Ansett Airlines in 1996, he left a year before it collapsed to join Qantas, but Ansett’s demise made a big impact on him and the countries aviation industry.

Joyce; Absolutely at Ansett in its last few years wasn’t aggressive enough to protect it’s position. Didn’t get it’s costs out, didn’t manage it’s business effectively, and I think it teaches you in a business that you have to act decisively and fast and not underestimate your competition otherwise you could end up as a dinosaur as Ansett did.

Tung; Joyces big break came when Qantas appointed him to set up a low cost subsidiary in 2003.

Joyce; We went in very skeptical because not full service airline had ever successfully set up a low cost carrier, so a bit of apprehension but great excitement at the opportunity that that created, it’s something you have to grab when opportunities like that only come across your life once so it’s something you have to grab when it does.

Tung; In May of 2004 Joyce launched Jetstar Airways, he had built a business model from scratch, tapping on the experiences of seasoned players around the globe.

Joyce; We went through every low cost carrier that we could research and we decided to look at what we thought were the best examples of what.. of the best low-cost carriers in the world and try to learn from them. At the same time we took all the failures and particularly the failure that were set up by full service carriers and tried to learn lessons of what went wrong so we didn’t repeat them. We knew we had to be the lowest cost operator and we targeted a ten percent cost level below Virgins. So how did we do that, we said lets look at every aspect of the airline and figure out how we could get an advantage, we developed what we called production driven scheduling where the aircraft returned to its home base every night and the aircraft is on minimum turns so we maximize the rostering of crewing and the aircraft and today we think our cost base is 15 to 20 percent below Virgins, its grown every year since our operation.

Tung; You talk a lot about crew but one big part about how you control cost is to keep the wages of pilots low, that met with some opposition unions who said that this was eroding pay and conditions, how did you deal with this very sensitive issue?

Joyce; Well one thing I’d say it wasn’t keeping the pay of pilots low, I think we pay the pilots a fair amount and some of the salaries and a Captain in Jetstar still can get paid, by flying over the 75 hours a month - when he gets overtime, still can get paid close to $200K dollars a year in salary.

Tung; But these unions are very demanding.

Joyce; But they are, and Qantas pays a lot more for the same aircraft. For our view was always that Qantas was overpaying and and and that was a legacy issue over a period of time and the market was very different. We work, we’re very engaged with our pilots, most of our pilots came from two organizations, Impulse Airlines and Ansett Airlines, and they they they knew what it was to go through a failed organization, that was our business. Now our Chief Pilot is an example, when Ansett, he came from Ansett, massive amount of experience of flying the A320 which we fly. When Ansett went bust he was gardening for a living, he was mowing laws and he was dumping grass into containers, um he did that for a number of months, couldn’t get a job. When Jetstar started and we paid decent wages, decent opportunities, um he was so engaged to get back into the employment field as most of our pilots are.

Tung; So how did you get the unions on your side in the end.

Joyce; We ended up going around, we do roadshows all the time to our staff we communicate to the staff about what the competition is like, why we need to be competitive on cost, why our market dictates to us if were not competitive on cost we could be out of business. We explain to them the logic of the returns we need to give to shareholders for investment. The explain to them the opportunities for growth, and their a sensible bunch of individuals, cleaver individuals, they listen, they understand your logic and the persuasion of argument and discussion and get them engaged in the business is the way we’ve always moved forwards.

Tung; Since its launch, traffic has surged, gaining more than 15% market share within Australia. Joyce attributes a large part of Jetstars success to its independence from it’s parent carrier.

Joyce; A lot of the failed low-cost carriers set up by full-cost carriers, failed because they didn’t get the right cost base and they ended up compromising, we call it death by a thousand lashes and the they compromises happen because you’ve decided you’ll get Qantas to do this and and little bits at a time.

Tung; You didn’t want to get caught in that?

Joyce; And we didn’t want to be caught in that, so we decided we had to be zealots, completely independent, different city, we’re in Melbourne, Qantas is in Sydney, um and you know that gave us a huge independence, has it’s own stand alone operation and it’s costs are real and that’s what we achieved.

Tung; How do you balance the need to stay independent and yet still enjoy some of the synergies that your parent offers.

Joyce; That’s that’s having the best of both worlds which I think we do. So when we buy fuel, er, we do that as a group activity because there’s a benefit to both so we go out there and put our our fuel purchases together and get a massive discount. But other things like Engineering, you know Qantas is a lot more expensive, so we don’t, when we tender it and find them expensive we don’t use them, we go else ware. And it’s that absolute commitment to using the lowest cost supplier in every category and what benefits the organization and we find that’s really important.

Tung; By the time Jetstar took off, your domestic rival ,your biggest rival, Virgin Blue already had a four year head start, what did you have to do to catch up?

Joyce; Well we started very big at the start and that did cause a few teething problems. Because we started with 15 aircraft, that was one of the important things, to get to that critical mass. And Secondly we had to spend, we spent a lot at start up, we spent 20 Million on marketing the brand, with in, and we got a lot of publicity, we did a lot of stunts, a lot of things to get publicity. And within a few months of operation we had a 98% brand recognition, unheard of, which really helped because we had to beat Virgin, such a great brand, we had to have something that was very well recognized and that would mean a lot of spending, a lot of commitment and we’d pay back the money within the first year.

Tung; Today you own more than 15% market share of the Australian domestic market and you are facing new competition from Singapore’s Tiger Airways. What are you doing to protect your turf?

Joyce; Well our turf is the low fares leadership and having the lowest costs to deliver on that low fares leadership. And we are doing everything in our power to make sure our costs are below those of Tigers so we can economically sustain delivering those airfares and that commitment. Um, it’s great having, um, more and more competition because I think it keeps everybody on their toes, it’s bought an air of excitement back to my organization, challenge is always very good. The new boy on the block always get the publicity but were very much focused also on Virgin because that’s still the bigger threat for us going forward.

Tung; Today in Australia you fly to around 20 destinations, can you continue to grow without cannibalizing your parent Qantas business?

Joyce; Yes, I think over- over the last few of years we’ve discovered with the flying community that is a relationship of how the two airlines work together to decide on routes, we, we have figured out how to use both brands, sometimes we’ve made a mistake like we used both brands on Hamilton Island and it did cannibalize Qantas and Jetstar wasn’t making money, it didn’t work. Qantas is no longer going to Hamilton. Recently we’ve had a major success in Honolulu, both carriers flying to Honolulu, both are making money, Qantas never made money on Honolulu. Qantas is just growing it , Jetstar is just growing it, our competition is suffering because we are both doing very well. So we’re learning as we are going, how to use this very successful pincer movement, two brand strategy to get the best for both airlines and it’s a very effective tool.

Tung; In the last three and a half years you know Jetstar has tripled it’s size, carried over 22 million passengers, you now operate a fleet of twenty four aircraft, where do you see Jetstar three to five years from now?

Joyce; Well we see it even being bigger, we’ll probably be in three to five years, we’ll probably be ten to twelve times the size when we originally started, we’ll be mostly an international carrier, most of our revenue will come from overseas. We’ll have a fleet of probably close to a hundred aircraft by that stage which will make us one of the biggest players in the region and there’s not many airlines in the world which are up to that size, we have the momentum to keep on growing at that rate and have a Pan Asian brand that’s equivalent of Ryan air of Europe or Southwest of the US.
:}

[Jet_A_Knight]

After all the chest beating and slandering of anyone and everyone at Jetstar, by the usual QF astronaut suspects, and for years now - this is truly poetic.

[surfside6]

Joyce is an outsider.
He has no support group or friends in Qantas(apart from Dixon)
There will be those who will seek to undermine him.
Joyce will be fighting battles on may fronts.
The resentment in Qantas may well make him a lame duck CEO.
A general is impotent without the support of his troops.
Making Joyce the CEO may awaken the sleeping giant of employee unity and fill it with a resolve Joyce may well find impossible to resist.
Strap in...its going to be an even bumpier ride

[Mud Skipper]

Jet_A_Knight,

Don't get too excited, Joyce was charged with setting up JetStar seemingly regardless of how it effected Mainline.

Now he's to run and answer for the whole show don't think for a minute he'll be JetStar's friend if that business is not performing. Indeed, of anyone in the company, he must have the best idea of what sh*t is hiding in which JetStar cupboards. If the recent, unfortunate, job cuts in Adelaide are anything to go by then I wouldn't be gloating too much from the LCC side of the fence - Joyce would have been in the centre of the loop of that decision whilst at the same time negotiating this new position.:rolleyes:

[QFinsider]

"Joyce didn’t make it as a pilot but his career took off".


Sort of says it all really.


Astronaut hardly, but the chips on the shoulder that Joyce posseses have benefited those who also posess them. It is this acidic culture I had hoped would be a thing of the past.

As for me I think the economic perfect storm will be far beyond the ability of the little fella. It is that ignorance and his repetition of the Dixon mantra that will in my opinion, mean the company is looking the wrong way when it gets swamped.

[Mstr Caution]

Have to agree with you Mud Skipper.

Joyce's "charge" whilst CEO of J* was to do the best for J* & I all realise that was at the expense of QF mainline.

Now in charge of mainline & knowing where the expenses are hidden, his obligation is to mainline & the board & the brand.

Clifford is no dummy, Joyce wouldnt have been appointed if the way forward advertised by Joyce wasnt to Cliffords liking or indeed the future strategy not Cliffords own.

MC:8

[packrat]

Joyce was annointed in late March.
The difficulty has been finding a suitable candidate to replace him at JetStar.
In the next few days/weeks another announcement regarding Joyce's successor wil be made..
Prepare to be further surprised.

[max autobrakes]

May you (we) live in interesting times!:{

[an3_bolt]

Come - on Packrat - tell us......... this is a rumours forum - tell - tell all!!!!

Does it have anything to do with another person who has announced their retirement from QF within the last week?

[mrpaxing]

there is a major restructuring coming. AJ certainly will bring some of his own trusted people along and dispose of some of the current qf crop. i think PG/JB may have to update their CV's. AJ is not a good communicator therfore it will be more difficult for him to engage/get respect from the current QF staff.
lets also not forget how much Leigh Clifford dislikes unions, therfore the GD style of confrontation will continue. Time will tell but it certainly wont be any better then before.:oh:

[blow.n.gasket]

Mav, you still got that number for that Bus driving school?
1-800-JETSTAR I think. :bored:

[MrWooby]

Mstr Caution, the problem is that Joyce is not in charge of mainline and has no obligation to mainline, he is in charge of the Qantas group. His only obligation is to extract maximum profit from the group.

By appointing him as the new CEO, the board has telegraphed their intention that they believe the way forward is the continuation of the current plan of reducing mainline and growing Jetstar.

[genex]

How many of you Jetstar/Joyce haters are the same people who urged JQ pilots not to sign the EBA a few short months back. "You'll get a better deal if you stick with AIPA and wait a few months"......hmmm....and these are the same clowns telling everyone the sky is falling in because Qantas, the "Flying Sheltered Workshop and Airline Museum" has a new CEO.

Ho bloody hum.

Advances in the airline industry and aviation as a whole have come from people who do....not featherbedded pilots who bleat.

[Dale Hardale]

Wooby is right - expect more of the same with Jetstar expanding and QF shrinking. All part of the master plan to migrate Qantas mainline costs to a MUCH lower level.

Not a good move for any JQ drivers to become involved with the AIPA who will now be even more determined to try and protect their future.

[Gearupandorrf]

Something like: "Welcome to Qantas, a wholly owned subsidiary of Jetstar Airways P/L".:*

[blow.n.gasket]

It's fairly obvious now as to what the "Dixon Plan " was/is.
JetStar to grow to a 100 fleet plus airline.
Obviously at Qantas' expense.
All very well, but where do you think all those pilots needed to fly those aircraft are going to come from?
Forget 457 visas.
The overall crewing establishment of a combined QF/JQ ,with forecast growth, won't change, only the mix will.
It's obvious that for JetStar to grow Qantas must shrink and it's only logical that a large number of those "polluting Qantas pilots " will be working for the LCC offshoot? (Is that soon to be parent?)
Is this what was meant by soon to be ex-Chief Pilot Manning when he waxed lyrically about how they ? (management?) had given up trying to convince Qantas Captains of managements vision.
The future of the company lay in it's S/O's and F/O's.
Just look at how the payscales in JetStar have been pitched.
For a Qantas S/O or F/O to take an upgrade under a JetStar type contract will mostly mean the upgrade in rank without a corresponding upgrade in pay or conditions.
Faced with the alternative I'd say most will jump.
However Qantas Captains by and large will be looking at a sizable pay cut.
Leaves you to wonder what if anything they can do.
Leaving the present EBA open would be an obvious tactic to gain some form of negotiating leverage over the new management team and try and extract some sort of guarantees.
No wonder management never expected to "win over" those individuals.
This is going to make for some very interesting group dynamics.
One question that springs to mind is the concept of a "group opportunity list" once there becomes no differences in cost.
What sort of a seniority integration list will evolve?
Interesting times indeed.
Here's to the future, what ever it may bring.

[Wingspar]

Qantas share price down....

Could have something to do with Manila but the CEO selection has hardly been taken well by the market!

Is this guy the answer to the QF problems?

[desmotronic]

DJ Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon's Strategies To Be Continued - Joyce28/07/2008 03:02PM AEST
MELBOURNE (Dow Jones)--Qantas Airways Ltd.'s (QAN.AU) new chief executive-elect, Alan Joyce, Monday said he plans to continue the strategies forged by current boss Geoff Dixon.

"This is a change of baton," Joyce, the current head of Qantas' budget offshoot Jetstar, said at a media briefing.

"There'll be a continuation of a lot of the strategies that Geoff has employed and particularly the two brands strategy and the segmentation of the business which I think are important for our future."

Joyce was anointed earlier Monday as Dixon's successor and will take up the role after the company's annual shareholder meeting on Nov. 28. Dixon, who has led the company since 2000, will stay on in a consultancy role until March 2009.

Asked about the likelihood of increased consolidation in the aviation industry given the effect of soaring jet fuel prices, Dixon told the briefing he believes strongly in consolidation.

"I think there will be consolidation at a much more rapid pace," Dixon said. "And personally, and I'm on my way out...I do not believe that Qantas will not, someway or another, consolidate with some other airline some time in the future."

Joyce said he agreed that if the current high fuel price continued a lot of airlines won't be economic as stand alone entities.

"I think Qantas will keep an eye out for opportunities," Joyce said.

Commenting on trade, Dixon said Qantas was "doing better" than he would've thought given the fuel prices and turmoil in financial markets.

"We're trading pretty well," Dixon said. "We're still pretty confident of the future but it's difficult times."

[Captain.Que]

The pilot EBA almost completed
The LAME deal done
CC EBA done and dusted for 5 years
Dixon Departs
Joyce arrives
The decks are cleared.
Now read the fine print in these new awards.
The detail will provide some clues as to the direction of Qantas under Joyce.
Some employees will be working under the JetStar banner whether they like it or not.
Qantas is morphing into a new corporate creature.
One that most of us wont like.

[tenretni]

All this Doom n Gloom!

Now let me get this straight....... Joyce gets the top job at QF.

So what does he do?

According to some of you lot he deliberately and with ruthless zeal destroys the airline thus biting the hand that feeds him.

And all this because he thinks his pilots are overpaid right?

Is he really that stupid?:=

[desmotronic]

Every experienced GA/regoinal driver in the country should be stoked it's Joyce's trainset now! :D

[Teal]

The crikey.com.au take on it all...

Dixon ejects as Qantas jumps for Joyce

Ben Sandilands writes:

While Geoff Dixon appears to have been ejected from Qantas faster than an oxygen bottle can burst through the side of a rusting jet, tips about an announcement of his successor were being made weeks ago. The shock however comes from Alan Joyce, the CEO of Jetstar, being named designate chief executive over the favourite Peter Greg, the CFO, and the second favourite, executive general manager John Borghetti. With hindsight there were clues from Jetstar people that Joyce was indeed the man, including jokes about how good the giant Airbus A380 would look in Jetstar colours. Dixon achieved incredibly good things for Qantas shareholders, and the Australian Government, since he turned into a taxpaying enterprise an airline that more than recovered all the losses it had incurred between being nationalised by the Chifley government upon the end of World War II and privatised in 1993.

His critics, however, damn him for also diminishing the Qantas brand by under resourcing maintenance to the point where the airline stood more for unreliable and dirty jets than quality flight, and safety was eroded to the point where overflowing sinks nearly brought down a 747 when they shorted most of the electrical system. It is a controversial legacy, and it's a fair bet to say Dixon won’t give a damn. At the recent media conference announcing job cuts at Qantas he was challenged about the legacy he would leave when he left. He replied, "I don’t even think about my legacy." At that conference Dixon said he expected to leave around mid February, when the first half results for the current year are released. Joyce is very much a non-legacy man too. He has driven Dixon’s agenda for rooting out legacy mindsets and entrenched work practices in Jetstar in pursuit of a new mass market for low fares and undermining the old Qantas ways until, eventually, its procedures and standards would be those of the budget carrier. It had been widely expected that Jetstar will in effect take over Qantas. But not under Joyce.

Coincidentally, there are signs of problems with the Jetstar model during high fuel prices and economic uncertainty. Dixon is on the record many times recently as saying demand was drying up at the low fare end of the market. And his critics had argued that he was also disguising the subsidising of Jetstar through the transfer of assets from Qantas. How Joyce deals with the new dynamics of high oil air transport is the big unknown.
One bean counter replacing another it seems.

[lowerlobe]

Whatever your view of the CEO elect is......it is the timing of the announcement that I find curious.

Is this an attempt to deflect attention from the aircraft in Manila or is this one incident/crisis too many for GD?
Qantas, the "Flying Sheltered Workshop and Airline Museum" has a new CEO.
I understand that some do not care for history and tradition genex but I guess that your partly right in that J* does operate under the umbrella of the Qantas group.....so the sheltered workshop analolgy would be close to the mark....

However,if J* is lucky enough to survive as long as Qantas has and build a reputation as Qantas has then you might be in a position to make remarks like that in around 80 years or so...

[max autobrakes]

Now that Joyce has won the pot of gold ,so to speak ,and is now ,or soon will be, the "face" of Qantas, I wonder if maybe he could now afford some dental work along with some elocution classes mixed with some speech pathology!:}

[Annulus Filler]

Can anyone confirm whether Alan Joyce is an AUSTRALIAN?

Could this be another example of Qantas outsourcing?

[Sistema]

Qantas. The world's most experienced f%$*UP!

[Teal]

Can anyone confirm whether Alan Joyce is an AUSTRALIAN?Irish-born, Australian citizenship I believe.

[mrpaxing]

dual citizen, aussie and irish. once again ben sandilands puts the Qantas story it in a rather good context.:zzz:

[motoboy71]

Silver and Orange paint ????
I Hope they have lots of White and Red Paint for all the JQ aircraft that are going to be painted ....
mark my words over nite JQ will become QF ......:ouch:

[fearcampaign]

It will be a very big challenge ahead for Alan Joyce now he is in charge of the entire Qantas Group.

He did a very good job in helping to get Jetstar off the ground and this is his reward.

One also needs to take in to account that he had the benefit of Qantas backing when purchasing shiny new aircraft(at cheap prices) with well established infrastructure already in place provided by Qantas.Not many stand alone LCC's have this backing in the formative years.

People are keen to draw quick comparisons to Michael O Leary from Ryanair.
Let us not forget that Joyce has simply copied the Ryanair/Easyjet/Southwest model.
He may well be a good manager but he is no visionary. A very good copycat perhaps.This does not make him a poor manager however.

Mainline has an old fleet so it will be interesting to see how he will also handle the other aspects of the Group such as Frequent flyer/ Freight/ Holidays e.t.c.

I think the doom and gloom prospects are overplayed.Jetstar is a low cost product that could not compete on premium routes as it is not a premium product.It has and will continue to have its place just as mainline will continue to.

I wish him all the best for what will be a tough job ahead.If he treats his staff with respect then perhaps the outcome could be positive for all employees and shareholders.

Lets give the man a chance.

[SumFingWong]

What is the perfered alternative ??

Dixon ?

Gregg ?

Borgetti ?

Amongst those names, surely Joyce dosent sound so bad..... does it ??

[drshmoo]

The new CEO
http://www.tonyskansascity.com/tonyskansascity/Leprechaun.jpg

and a look into the future

http://www.rideagainstaids.com/DSCN0306small.JPG

[Kiwiconehead]

Does Joyce actually speak to staff, if so that's an improvement on Darth, if not, no change.

Darth has alienated the entire workforce - if Joyce wants the company to survive he needs the staff on side.

[ballhopper]

At least he will assist the engineers to do dual safty checks
two be sure,two be sure

[bulstrode]

Whoever or whatever Joyce may be lets hope he has a very broad broom and gets rid of some of the management deadwood who get paid large amounts of appearance money for doing very bloody little except carrying a clip board around in one hand and a coffee mug in the other.

[Tester Call 121.5]

Wow, everyones an expert. Good luck to him. He has my full support. If it all turns dickie after a year or so, the slagging can begin.
Let's not **** in our nest yet.
A bigger issue is which airline will QF merge with in the near future.
Air NZ no doubt.

[DEFCON4]

Unfortunately for Qantas the number of potential Airline CEO candidates is pretty thin.
In this part of the world there are probably three or four people who would fit the bill and they are very happy where they are.
Joyce is young,an outsider and has considerable experience in the airline industry.
The fact that he is a prick was probably a bonus as far as dixon and the board were concerned.
As has been mentioned the Qantas management culture wont make his life at the top easy.
Like him or loathe him he has a tough job to do in a tough industry.
Having met him once or twice he is not that impressive...just a little bit too full of himself.
Anyway he was probably the only real choice available.
Borghetti and Gregg are too old and really dont have any fresh ideas.
The fact that he is not a family man means he can park a bed at Coward Street and burn the midnight oil without distraction.

[The Hill]

Interesting call motoboy71, absorb Jetstar into Qantas, bit like Freedom and AirNZ, after all its all about "consolidation"
never a dull moment

[AlphaLord]

Over the years a number of partners have been considered as likely Qantas bedfellows...Sing Air,Air NZ,American Airlines and even at one stage JAL.(though JAL was a fleeting consideration)
Given the right circumstances it may even merge with itself...paint all the Qantas Group Aircraft red and white with 787s and the A380 P/C and J/C only and everything else low cost regional and domestic.
Whatever happens all these aircraft on order have to fly somewhere,so expect some growth and increased frequencies over the next 10 years

[ElPerro]

... Qantas will likely be a sh*t place to work under Joyce. He has absolutely zero respect for employees unless they roll over on everything he says and take it right up the clacker in every possible position. He is not interested in safety in the slightest (that info comes direct from an extremely experience flight-safety pilot who once applied for a high-level safety management position there, then withdrew after the conditions and culture permeating down from Joyce became apparent during discussions about the job).

As for me, I don't need the money, so if Joyce destroys Qantas Mainline by shifting it to a LCC model and thinking Australian mums & dads will still take holidays on budget carriers during a slowing economy and difficult economic circumstances, it'll be sad, but won't have a significant effect on me. I have other things I can do.

You know you have an old job you could walk back into DR :) Although this: He has absolutely zero respect for employees unless they roll over on everything he says and take it right up the clacker in every possible position. does sound like your old workplace ;)

I think your argument fails a simple logic test. A company who's goal is profit maximisation is not going to shift profitable premium routes onto the low cost model when you look at the strategic landscape.

From a strategic management point of view (my point of view), Joyce was leading an airline attempting to enter a market. Existing Market - Existing product leads itself to a penetration strategy - the strategy being Cost Leadership / Focus. The QF Model lends itself to a Differentiation (Focus). Joyce isn't a dumb man and knows the different.

He would know the strategic framework that each airline operates within. Jetstar - Price Differentiation , Qantas - Image / Support / Quality Differentiation.

It may sound like management speak but he wouldn't get the job if he didn't know it.

Ultimately customer demand on each route will decide who gets it, if most want price leadership then Jetstar will get it, if most want quality/support/image they'll go with QANTAS.

Relax, he's not going to turn QF into Jetstar (Note: I'm not suggestion he'll be saying 'pay rises all around!' as he still needs to keep costs under control).

Good luck to the man.

[PPRuNeUser0182]

Wow! :ok: A thread that hasn't been hijacked by the engineers! Won't be long though.

[JetA_OK]

Any truth to the Trevor Jensen rumour as the new CEO of Jet*?

[bauble]

Obviously damning myself but...
Almost everyone who posts here would appear to be complete morons.

[ampclamp]

like it or not he's the new boss and I reckon a big broom will be wielded soon enough.
Either that or he'll be white-anted sooner or later by the entrenched interests or disgruntled ambitious types.
He may surprise us all yet.Important to keep an open mind.

Information charles, I'm an engineer, hope thats ok with you.

[Mstr Caution]

Mr Wooby

Maybe I should clarify my statement.

Joyce was initiatiatially responsible for Jet* only, now he is charged with the responsibility of running BOTH mainline & jet*.

Since his new responsponsibilities now include the wellbeing of Qantas mainline maybe his focus on J* may change? Didn't Dixon state recently that:

a. J* will no longer operate at the expense of mainline
b. Lesiure travel is softening
c. Mainline was the performer

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only logo's I saw during the press conference today had kangaroos all over them.

Fear Campaign, I agree give Joyce a chance. But whilst mainline tech crew out number J* crew at a rate of about 5 to 1 & an oustanding EBA on offer, I know which way the odds are stacked. Joyce couldnt afford to have mainline crew working to rule.

If J* were going to be the real growth vehicle, wouldn't Joyce stay put? As previous posts stated wasnt QF going to be J*'s subsidiary?

Kiwiconehead, Joyce does speak to staff. Remember he told the J* crew he was going to employ foreign crew under 457 visas.

The Hill, Yes, already considered. If J* repaint aircraft into Qantas livery, mainline will be short of a few Fo's.

Jet A_OK. That will surely see the end of them then.

[Pundit]

Qantas will roo this day!

[DutchRoll]

Actually, no ElPerro, I don't have an old job I could walk back into, or at least there is no way on this planet I would even try.

There are other reasons I don't need the money from this job. Not a cent.

That being beside the point I suppose, Joyce has quite flagrantly lied to, deceived, and brazenly insulted QF mainline pilots before, and there is certainly no reason to believe that any of this will change. He is also obsessed with costs to the point that, as I alluded to previously when talking of safety, he appears blissfully happy to sacrifice anything for a short-term gain.

I remember seeing a program some years ago where a fairly well known and highly respected (and honoured) CEO of a huge, successful multinational company was talking about how he ran things. One point: cost-cutting, while necessary occasionally, is a short-term and unsustainable way of maximising profit. Another point: in industries dependant on heavy equipment, you have to continuously invest in new equipment to stay competitive.

While so far pleasing to shareholders who can see no further than this year's dividend, Dixon now finds himself in a bind. A relatively old, inefficient, and increasingly problematic fleet with a downturn on the horizon, patched up by a few purchases here and there (of vastly different aircraft types of course), substantial delays in the new hardware, an unhappy and unmotivated workforce, and with competitors chomping at his heels with shiny new efficient jets, good service and reasonable prices only kept at bay by Australian Government restrictions! If you were a stockbroker, you'd be a nut to have a "buy" advice on QAN, and Joyce is a carbon-copy of Dixon.

Dixon's legacy is going to be of a company backed into a corner - a situation Joyce is unlikely to change. Things just couldn't get any better, eh?

[Cost Index]

balls deep: Bwah ha ha ha :}

[ElPerro]

Actually, no ElPerro, I don't have an old job I could walk back into, or at least there is no way on this planet I would even try.

Actually you do. You just haven't asked the right people. I know you..

There are other reasons I don't need the money from this job. Not a cent. I don't doubt that!


That being beside the point I suppose, Joyce has quite flagrantly lied to, deceived, and brazenly insulted QF mainline pilots before, and there is certainly no reason to believe that any of this will change. He is also obsessed with costs to the point that, as I alluded to previously when talking of safety, he appears blissfully happy to sacrifice anything for a short-term gain.

Surely you could point to a risk-management assessment of JetStar's to prove your point.?

I remember seeing a program some years ago where a fairly well known and highly respected (and honoured) CEO of a huge, successful multinational company was talking about how he ran things. One point: cost-cutting, while necessary occasionally, is a short-term and unsustainable way of maximising profit.

To apply that logic to all companies is false. It depends on the strategic situation the company resides in. To quote Rod Eddington: "But you should never arrive assuming that, say, just because you have seen a problem at Ansett or Cathay Pacific and you knew the solution there, that the same problem had the same answer,

Another point: in industries dependant on heavy equipment, you have to continuously invest in new equipment to stay competitive.

True enough (See Sir Rod).. however QF has done pretty well on the global scene when looking at return on equity.

While so far pleasing to shareholders who can see no further than this year's dividend, Dixon now finds himself in a bind. A relatively old, inefficient, and increasingly problematic fleet with a downturn on the horizon, patched up by a few purchases here and there (of vastly different aircraft types of course), substantial delays in the new hardware, an unhappy and unmotivated workforce, and with competitors chomping at his heels with shiny new efficient jets, good service and reasonable prices only kept at bay by Australian Government restrictions!

Doesn't sound too much different to most carriers. True, some have their 380's off the line first, but strategically speaking QF isn't like many of the US carrier's flying the MD's etc.. Do yourself a favour and hop off the jet in LA and go for around around the US. You'll miss QF pretty quickly (especially given your job! ;)

If you were a stockbroker, you'd be a nut to have a "buy" advice on QAN, and Joyce is a carbon-copy of Dixon.[/quote] Yes but you are assuming that people only have the option of buying airline stock. Even the old CEO of American Airlines said that airlines are a great place to work but a crap place to invest...


Dixon's legacy is going to be of a company backed into a corner - a situation Joyce is unlikely to change. Things just couldn't get any better, eh?

I think you'll find his legacy is leaving an airline that was one of the most profitable in the world, where it was based in a country with a population less than California.

[Lodown]

Bauble, you retard!

Almost everyone who posts here would appear to be complete morons.

Read a few of my posts. I hate to keep up appearances. :}

It seems obvious that there aren't many posters here in line for a HR job.

Talk of mergers? There goes the seniority scale. Everyone back to zero if that happens.

The writing has been on the wall for ages now. If you haven't been cultivating employment opportunities with other operators and encouraging a flexible home and family lifestyle, then you've got a lot of work to do. Hope it doesn't happen, but plan as if it will.

[captainrats]

A little slice of management speak served with some well chosen quotes and you presented a dish that is oblivious to the real problems Qantas faces.....
1.An aging fleet that requires considerable maintenance from diminished resources ie tangible equipment assets and personnel
2. A Disengaged workforce that been largely managed on the basis of fear and intimidation.
3.A poor equipment mix
4.A severely depleted aircraft spares inventory.
5.An IT system that borders on the neolithic
6.A shrinking international market.
7.A yield that has been thinly maintained by constrained capacity.
8.A marketing department that couldnt sell ice cream to the Arabs.
9.Aircraft interiors that displaying distinct signs of age.
10.Operational disarray.
The spin doctors have you conned.
The Qantas work environment is toxic.A staff member was put on a disciplinary charge because he told a detrimental Dixon joke.Another fellow derided the whizz bang Blackberry because it is not 3G.He too is on a disciplinary charge.
If after reading the above you still believe that everything at the Rat is hunky
dory then perhaps we could talk about a bridge shaped like a coat hanger that is for sale at a very competitive price.
After watching Joyce on the ABC this evening it is surely evident that he is nothing more than a dixon clone albeit without the contemptuous snarl.With a little practice in front of a mirror no doubt he will soon master that as well.

[ElPerro]

1.An aging fleet that requires considerable maintenance from diminished resources ie tangible equipment assets and personnel
2. A Disengaged workforce that been largely managed on the basis of fear and intimidation.
3.A poor equipment mix
4.A severely depleted aircraft spares inventory.
5.An IT system that borders on the neolithic
6.A shrinking international market.
7.A yield that has been thinly maintained by constrained capacity.
8.A marketing department that couldnt sell ice cream to the Arabs.
9.Aircraft interiors that displaying distinct signs of age.
10.Operational disarray.

You sure you don't fly transport in the Air Force?

It begs the question. Which Airline do you think gets a tick for all of the above 10 points?

In fact what is QF's return on assets vs other global airlines?

[captainrats]

1.Emirates
2.Singapore Airlines
3.Etihad
4.Qatar Airlines
Now go on with usual rhetoric about government support,not a level playing etc.etc.

[Much Ado]

It should go without saying that the next child that posts anything even vaguely defamatory about Mr Joyce et al will be banned.

If anyone ever wondered why management holds our profession in such low regard the answer is in this thread:ugh:

It just beggars belief that some here may actually hold a mainline command..or aspire to such.:mad:

[ElPerro]

BigRat:

Emirates: Ahh of course: Proceeds in 2008 from sale of property, plant and equipment 3,336,640,000 AED (963 Million Australian Dollars) Nice way to make the balance sheet look black!
Singapore: The Group earned a net profit (delta) ... to equity holders of -21.4%m than a year ago.
Etihad: Etihad to break even by 2010 (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/518580-etihad-airways-to-break-even-by-2010-?ln=en) Need I say more?
Qatar: Akbar Al Baker, said yesterday that Qatar Airways could launch a low-cost carrier...."We already have registered a name for the low-cost carrier, and have aircraft ready for the budget carrier. We will look to offer better and lower prices than others.

QANTAS: EOY 2007: Net profit after tax of A$618 million

Big cheer for Dixon...:D

I suspect (especially given the Qatar Airways suggestion) you get you airline stock tips from CNN advertisements when stuck in hotel room's with nothing to watch ;) You know when they say "Your five star airline" it's just an advertising thing !

[ling_woo]

El Perro, are you suggesting that SQ are making a loss then? Because that would be quite inaccurate.

[TMAK]

Ling...I think he is suggesting profit return will be lower this year? than last year.

Interesting thing is all these airlines treat their staff very ordinary...the mid east are expanding hence have new aircraft...SQ is different, they keep replacement going instead of maintaining theirs...and it gives a more fuel efficient fleet.

[captainrats]

The ten criteria listed and that you questioned said nothing regarding profit.
The criteria listed were a result of of over zealous cost cutting(at Qantas) in order to achieve profit.
Lets have this conversation in 12 months time when AJ has continued on his merry cost cutting way and Qantas posts an enormously reduced profit and the operation of the airline is an even bigger catastrophe than it is now.
Its relatively easy to cut costs...you just dont spend money on anything and voila your bottom line is improved.
Dont buy any groceries,cut off the phone,the computer,dont do any repairs on your house,no car repairs,sell the lawn mower and at the end of the year you have lots of money in the bank but you have lost weight and you are living in a hovel.Of course your wife and kids are very very upset.
Being clever with your revenue base on the other hand requires skill and creative thinking....both lacking at Qantas.
You are defending the indefensible

[genex]

Not thinking about revenue?????

Exactly how much revenue do you reckon the QF Group would have right now if it had taken strategy advice from AIPA and not started JQ, leaving the low fare market to VB and the back couple of rows of some clapped out second hand 767s?

You are indeed dreaming.

Qantas new CEO has a track record of revenue generation. And of making money on routes where the Legacy carrier couldn't.

This is the best piece of new you guys could have heard...if you finally get over the venom and spleen venting. As the moderator said...these posts alone have given the Mr. Joyce a perfect word picture of AIPA and its orchestrated tactics. Which by the way use members money which is tax deductible and hence I'm paying for. Must write to the ATO.

One day someone will start a Sky Gods thread for jokes and pictures. In fact that's a good idea.....must think about it.

"How can you tell a Sky God?......You can't he already knows everything"

Promise...good bottle of '389 for the best Sky God joke.

[Henry Winkler]

Much Ado. Get over yourself. It's ok to throw insults at Dixon but not at Joyce? At QF pilots but not Jetstar? And your comment about "Mainline Captains" is Just out of line. You sir are a bias W@#ker.
Go on Ban me. With a prick like you as the Moderator, I'm finished with PPrune.


Anybody find it Ironic that an unemployed pilot named genex is the bloke throwing insults.

[hi-speed tape]

spud phucker

[swamp monkey]

..............bwahahahahaha........ the pictures are great.

So many people upset and nothing has happened yet.

Surely aviation has taught you one thing: It hasn't happened until it's happened.

[Jabawocky]

Hey Henry,

Take a look over your shoulder.........This thread was about Mr Joyce, I dare say the reason Much Ado addressed his comment about defaming comments about Mr Joyce et al was in encompassed the rest like dixon and Godfrey and anyone else for that matter.

J

[titan uranus]

Much Ado..I'm with you.

This thread is a bloody embarrassement.
It just goes to show just how sheltered some of these "professionals" are as to how the world operates.
I hope someone's lawyers are watching it closely. I'm sure they wouldn't mind a wee chat with Transition Layer and co. But then again, these are busy intelligent people who would probably look at it like some petulant child just called them names, and disregard it in an instant.

[Sky.Rider]

When you startup any business...airlines included....the first dollar you earn is revenue growth .Revenue growth continues until your product has satisfied the market demand for your product.The revenue will then fluctuate.
Joyce is not responsible for revenue growth.It was a a natural function of tapping into a niche market that had previously been ignored.
Revenue is not to be confused with profit as you seem to be doing.
Profit begins when you cover your costs.Costs in Jet* case that were already being covered by the parent Qantas Group.
Lets wait for this years annual report and see if we can determine not only revenue for Jet* but also its profit as a percentage of the total group.

[captaintunedog777]

One major point you clowns fail to understand. Qantas is an ASX listed comapny. Its books are open, particularly to the big stock broking companies. You clowns also fail to realise why Adelaide crew were the last to know about the base closure. It affects the share price. No one is meant to know until the ASX is notified.

It would be hilllarious if AIPA and the other draconian unions were to run Q or at least act on the their advice.

[fearcampaign]

I am afraid I agree with Genex here.Perhaps I am really losing it.

Everything has been blown way out of proportion IMHO.

Jetstar has a market for its brand and so does Qantas.
Joyce clearly stated that he would continue with the two brand strategy.

He is not going to place Jetstar on a premium route against Singair or Emirates.Neither would he place Qantas on a leisure route.

There may be however a market through Vietnam or Thailand to other Euro destinations for JQ. Each Airline within the group has its strengths.

Joyce needs both Jetstar AND Qantas.In the same way he also needs Jetstar and Qantas pilots.The shareholders also need both groups of pilots just as it has needed its engineers.

Time to get back to our jobs and stop bitching at our fellow pilots.Let us not lower ourselves to a Jetstar versus Qantas pilots slagging match.I've met a few dickheads in both camps but overall the vast majority on both sides are great people and true professionals that any CEO should want to look after.

I am sure the ex Ansett pilots in BOTH Qantas and Jetstar would be the first to remind us to be thankful we still work for a solvent company.

Safe flying everyone

[Keg]

1.
...how much revenue...if it (Qantas Group) had taken strategy advice from AIPA and not started JQ, leaving the low fare market to VB and the back couple of rows of some clapped out second hand 767s?

AIPA's position was never about not starting up J*. AIPA's position was all about QF honouring it's agreement with AIPA about giving us a seat at the table to discuss operations of the LCC as was written into various EBAs at the time.

2. As the moderator said...these posts alone have given the Mr. Joyce a perfect word picture of AIPA and its orchestrated tactics.

I don't recognise any QF long haul crew on this thread who have displayed venom toward Mr Joyce. That would also make your assertion of it being 'orchestrated tactics' by AIPA to be a lie.

3. Which by the way use members money which is tax deductible and hence I'm paying for. Must write to the ATO.

Knock your socks off. It's the law.

The rest of your post is just the usual trash. As usual you play the man and not the ball. I note that on a couple of different threads you've mysteriously disappeared once the obvious distortions in your posts have been highlighted.


"How can you tell a Sky God?......You can't he already knows everything"

Nice to know see the chip on the shoulder hasn't diminished any though! :rolleyes:

[mrpaxing]

there is a future for both airlines in their respective markets. If history is anything to go by then AJ will be a little clone of , no not GD, but the chairman LC. remember if there has ever been an anti union guy out there it LC (his history in RIO will support this view). I suspect this is a major reason the board decided on AJ because he comes with less baggage then the rest.it is however interesting how quickly one forgets some of the realities in the current environment. airfares and the way they are sold to the public is what i call an artform. since J* was launched i have looked on many occassions online getting the best fares to HNL or BKK. majority of times i found Qf to be cheaper then J*, if you book in advance. i have many friends who tried the J* experience and they wont ever travel on them again internationally. given that QF is not there they will go to any alternate carrier. Fortunatly GD had the bonus of an booming aviation market. AJ will have a much tougher time. :*

[SumFingWong]

GENEX: You wanted a sky-god gag ??


Q: What does a QF captain's wife do to her ar$ehole just before sex ??





A: She drops him off at the airport.

Can we make it a bottle of tanqueray ??



Oh and my mates at JQ tell me that Joycey pax's JQ regularly and always pops up front to say G'day..... Dixon never did either !

[genex]

Keg.....I was for the first time ashamed to call myself a professional pilot when I saw some of the pics that were posted here on this thread the last few days. They rank with the monkeys pic that was posted during the EBA.

You're right....it probably isn't orchestrated....but it is simply nasty, way beyond the pale. I understand the frustration you guys feel....but there are two parties in an EBA and you folks forgot that in unity is strength. If Geoff upset you its because he could.....there was once a world where a pilot union leader could have stared him down and said "there has to be another way, lets find it" and it would have worked.

Jetstar, where I have many good friends, and Joyce are not the enemy. But you wouldn't know that from many of the posts recently. If they weren't from AIPA members thats good.

Thanks

[Bolty McBolt]

Thread Drift

Have heard AJ was once an engineer or has actual hands on maintenance experience of aircraft.

If this is true, perhaps there is a future for engineering as he will be able to see through the smoke mirror show put on by characters whom run it now.


But I did enjoy "the Chaser" calling AJ a prique on national TV over his employment policy :D

YouTube - Alan Joyce on The Chaser's War on Everything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJsJaoIIrvQ)

[Jabawocky]

From what I have been told by a J* Capt is that AJ is not a bad guy at all. Quite approachable and willing to engage.

Maybe he is the answer to all the folk who complain about management disegagement.

Try getting a fresh new outlook and as a whole company, work together, new a/c coming, the rough patch will pass, and you never know, many of you might enjoy your jobs again!

Its all about attitude they say.......

J

[Teal]

Today's take on it from crikey.com.au

What sort of Qantas will Jetstar-Joyce deliver?

Ben Sandilands writes:

Former Jetstar boss Alan Joyce is taking over at Qantas just as the Jetstar model runs into real problems. The lower fare paying passengers, those that were suckered by a five-cent fare in one direction and screwed with a $200 fare return, aren’t rocking up like they once did. Source: Guidance from Geoff Dixon, the Qantas CEO in the executive departure lounge. Reason: The so called ultra low fare customers that spawned Ryanair, the Jetstar template which is currently losing financial altitude faster than QF 30 did when it dropped in on Manila, can no longer afford the petrol to get to an airport, never mind being gouged for the parking.

Jetstar International is in serious trouble in Japan because it is considered an insult by consumers, and doesn’t have the support of the major tour wholesalers who control on-line and off-line leisure sales. Dixon’s decision to replace many Japan flights with Jetstar services is not just bad strategy according to tourism insiders, but a factor in the disastrous collapse of Japanese travel to Queensland. The myth that Jetstar somehow saved Qantas from the wicked Virgins is also turning into a problem. By the time Jetstar started flying in 2004, Virgin Blue had already stopped the massive and unsustainable rate of expansion it underwent through 2002-2003. Instead it began replacing near-new jets with brand new jets bought outright or at better leasing rates.
Before Jetstar, the Virgin Blue share of contested domestic routes was measurable by DOTARS data on passenger numbers boarded. It sat at just over 30%. It is still hovering around 32% and looking at Virgin and Qantas capacity cuts, it could stay there even in a shrinking total market.

What Jetstar really achieved was to drive higher yield Qantas customers across to Virgin Blue (which had wisely stopped the involuntary face painting of persons in suits) when they were confronted with routes from which most if not all Qantas full service flights had been withdrawn. Jetstar is poison for regular business flyers, or "new world travellers" as Virgin Blue CEO Brett Godfrey calls them. The cosy little duopoly that has now emerged on the mainline domestic routes between Qantas and Virgin Blue is a division of the spoils in terms of regular travellers who normally fly economy and routinely pay around $250-400 for a one way flight between the SE cities without blinking.

Joyce’s other problem is that Jetstar is despised at many levels in Qantas, including senior managers who will presumably soon leave, who insisted that the original Jetstar offering be so bad that customers would know they were being punished for not paying rip off fares to the full service carrier. If Joyce had been freer to act on his instincts, Jetstar could have done enormous damage to Qantas and Virgin Blue. All it would have taken was a bit more legroom and check-in procedures and ticket conditions that didn’t treat customers like sh-t. But the real and legitimate agenda for Jetstar has always been higher productivity. It's an agenda for Qantas that’s stencilled on Joyce’s forehead.
Many in Qantas hope that Joyce’s alleged disdain for "legacy" concepts of engineering and piloting excellence vanishes (if it really ever existed).

Jetstar’s worst incident, a bungled attempt at a foggy landing at Melbourne Airport in July last year, not only put lives in jeopardy, but raised doubts that the carrier even understood its obligations in the transitional training of pilots to the A320 airliner or the inadequacy of its flight standards oversights. The incident was inexcusable. Two pilots sat there wondering why a jet kept descending on lower than expected power without actually checking that the throttle was in the right detent and then blamed a system’s failure, an excuse that lasted as long as a snowflake in Surfers when the ATSB finally demanded to see the data.

Given the meeja hysterics over a trivial and routine problem with a Qantas flight that returned to Adelaide last night, it won’t get away with anything without intense scrutiny. But we may not have seen the full Alan Joyce in action. Now that some of the restraints of his Jetstar brief are gone so are all bets about what sort of Qantas it is that Joyce and the notably engaged chairman Leigh Clifford really have in mind.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Post # 22

Happened at B.A.too.

[oicur12]

I have refrained from engaging in the purile pprune debate concerning the "QF/JQ world is caving in" nonsense BUT I simply cannot overlook an implication presented by Captainrats:

"An aging fleet that requires considerable maintenance from diminished resources ie tangible equipment assets and personnel"

SQ has a reasonably young fleet NOW but dont kid yourself, they will be basket cases when still operating in thier twilight years. Case in point the poor state of the A310's and 743's when they were not factory fresh.

"A Disengaged workforce that been largely managed on the basis of fear and intimidation."

Do you really think the staff at SQ and QR are "engaged". "Managed by fear" is an apt term when referring to SQ, its how they do business.

"Operational disarray."

Yep, sums up QR very nicely and other big players such as CX couldnt strategize thier way out of a paper bag on most occasions.

You will not get sympathy from fellow workers at the airlines you mention, they are struggling with same issues you face, or worse.

So you think your new boss is a mean and nasty man that will try to make your charmed lifes difficult? Welcome to the real world my friend.

[ampclamp]

Nice to hear something positive.Open mind here.

If anyone expects a new CEO to come down and kiss lame's or pilot's backsides for doing what they do we're all going to be disappointed.

If he has any credo he truly does need to respect the workforce (and show it).The GD era was epitomised by a tough guy culture that was emulated thru out management.Every wannabe out Geoffing Geoff.
I expect hard nosed management but I also want to see see him talk to people meet them look at what we do and where.

I also want the empires that even Geoff could not find or disassemble brought down and less money spent on bull$#!^.
Still cant believe the agonisingly complex and non-standardised across the fleet paperwork that qantas have for fixing jets.
For all the money spent on IT its one of the major sources of frustration in engineering.Utter crap.200 million on marlin had better work .

Train more apprentices and give AME's some hope of a career as LAME.Train LAME's on more types and get better value out of them.Half licences or not trained on this variant or that tail or category costs so much.

A more open , consultative culture in engineering would be most welcome.

Re-insert spleen now.

[virgindriver]

From what I have been told by a J* Capt is that AJ is not a bad guy at all. Quite approachable and willing to engage

Would that J* Capt have a last name starting with J as well?

[Sunfish]

While I was no fan of Mr. Dixon, I think it might be wise to wait and see how Mr. Joyce settles in before passing judgement. Personalities are not stable over time, and of course where you sit is where you stand on many issues.

You might be pleasantly surprised by the little fella, give him a fair go.:ok:

[QFinsider]

Sunfish, I sincerely hope you are right.

The mantra of the LCC will not be sustained as the economic storm clouds gather. The only way an airline will hold onto to revenue and more importantly yield is respect. That starts with the customer, who is sold a decent product, at a fair price and treated as such. That customer is then dealt with by staff, who are treated with respect. Ultimately back to the shareholder. Or so Walt Disney maintained, as did Gordon Bethune and a plethora of others.

His form to date suggests otherwise.

[genex]

QFInsider....who exactly told you that AJ doesn't respect his staff? I have not heard that from anyone I know who works there. He is tough....cost minded and single minded, not taking short cuts...Ask any Ansett employee if they'd like to have had someone like that running their company. I have heard that the JQ folks like him and that he actually believes what he says about safety.

[Zeus Ex Machina]

What is your version/understanding of "tough"?
Alan Joyce is "tough"?
Is he made of carbon fibre or does he beat people up?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Many of the posts here quite graphically display why pilots as a whole can be manipulated and screwed by intelligent corporate types. Obviously the average age on this thread would be about 10. How embarrassing.

DM

[dodgybrothers]

genex: absolute rubbish. If you think AJ and or any other CEO of an airline puts safety before profit you have been sucking on the management bong far too long.

If that was the case why would dixon take HM off shore or why jetstar operated without a manager of safety for near on a year or why all of the safety investigators with jetstar are FOs and do not have to be paid a %age of a capts wage? Its not because they have safety front and centre I can tell you.

[Zeus Ex Machina]

1.Mindless stirring
2.Venting of frustration
3.Posting of rumours.
4.Provision of information/disinformation
5.Trolling.
Take your pick.
Its a bit like TV if you dont like it ...turn it off.
You are not being forced to view this website

[Jabawocky]

Virgindriver

Sorry mate, of the few I know none have a J in their names at all.

J:ok:

[kotoyebe]

It would be hilllarious if AIPA and the other draconian unions were to run Q

Like the "draconian" Long Haul Cabin Crew union that agreed to a 50% pay cut for new starters?

[Lookleft]

Dodgybrothers- No different to the way Big Brother did business, not too many Captains are investigators there either. Jetstar do however now have the former head of safety at KLM as well as a former Chief Pilot of Ansett as Group Manager so I don't think they are short of experience. Even before that they had a former ATSB investigator who developed a basic investigator's course because there was no other in-house course available within the Group.

[aulglarse]

What a shame for AJ to go, no more credit card thrown over the bar and 'herr yer go boys, it's on me' until all hours!:ok:

[TurbTool]

I think genex and KEG could be good friends in another era.

AJ has done a great job at Jet* and no doubt will apply himself equally as well in his new position.

What say the jury remains out for a while and we all give him the fair go we Aussies are famous for.

[kellykelpie]

So what if FOs are investigators in JQ. Do you think you have to be a Captain to be a good investigator? This is precisely the type of thinking that needs to be overhaulled.

[Much Ado]

Your wish is my command....see ya!

[Keg]

Turbtool, I think genex and I probably agree on far more than we disagree.

To summarise my thoughts- and whilst I don't speak for all of my colleagues the conversations I've had with a lot of them would indicate that many of them share my thoughts.
1. Neither I nor the over whelming majority of my colleagues thought or think ill of the J* crew or consider them second rate operators.
2. I am bitterly disappointed that many forces (some who were previously quite high up in AIPA) keep working at having the pilot groups at arms length from each other.
3. I'm disappointed that J* crew signed on for a poor EBA when they had a gun to their head regarding the A320 instead of trying to work WITH AIPA for a better deal.
4. I'm disappointed that J* crew signed on for the widebody variation that confirmed that they'd fly the A330 for substantially lower conditions than the other operator of A330 aircraft in Australia.
5. I'm frustrated that QF keep being told how expensive we are as an airline when no one knows for sure how much assistance QF provided/provides J* both in start up and in an ongoing fashion.
6. I'm bitterly cranky that QF pilots and their representatives have constantly be denied a seat at the table to discuss crewing aspects of the LCC. This has been a concerted effort by J* management, the JPC and even the AFAP.
7. That crankiness ratchets up a notch when I recall agreements in EBA and promises made to the pilot body that we actually would get a seat at the table. The seat at the table involved not taking away a single command from current J* crew and seeing QF drivers who move across to J* sitting underneath the J* crew on seniority.
8. It ratchets up a further notch when I am told that the pilot culture of which I share a proud heritage would 'pollute' a relatively new carrier that has grown rapidly from GA RPT ops to heavy jets.
9. I'm frustrated that the premium product- which everyone acknowledges is still doing pretty well whilst the leisure travel segment is 'softening- is neglected with tired, thirsty aircraft whilst the low cost, low yield product is showered with newer and more efficient equipment.
10. I'm frustrated by a management that publicly states that it sees little value in it's people and that it's shareholders it's only priority and that this attitude impedes people's ability to actually do their job. That frustration continues when i see one of the prime architects and enablers of that strategy promoted to follow the already poisonous employee relations.

Any QF crew who aren't broadly in line with that view would probably be the minority and those who attempt to paint that alternative view as the majority 'sky god' view are either sadly mis-informed or trying it on for their own mischevious purposes. Perhaps Genex could tell us which side of the ledger he falls on.

So good luck to Mr Joyce. If the J* crew like the job he did for them then perhaps that's a positive start. Given his public disdain for me and my colleagues you can understand our hesitation in giving him a rousing welcome.

PS: QF too use F/Os (amongst others) as investigators. Some of them are internally trained. Many of them spent time with BASI and/or the ATSB prior to QF. Not ALL of the investigators are F/Os though which is the point I think the other poster was making. Nice straw man though kelly.

[The Hedge]

Trinity maths graduate flying high as new chief at Qantas

More than a decade after turning down a Ryanair job to move Down Under, Dubliner Alan Joyce was yesterday appointed chief executive at Australian airline giant Qantas.

The Tallaght-born maths graduate is expected to earn up to four times as much as Ryanair's Michael O'Leary, making him one of the best-paid aviation executives in the world.

"Any Aussie would be delighted to secure the position but as an Irishman I'm very proud," said Mr Joyce, who'll become Qantas's first non-Australian chief executive when he takes the reins in November.

The 42-year-old is expected to make as much as $7m AUD (€4.2m) a year, based on the outgoing chief executive's 2007 package, well above the €1m package Mr O'Leary scooped last year.

Since getting the nod from the Qantas board last week, Mr Joyce has been celebrating with his brother and wife who are in Australia for the occasion, while there have also been celebratory phone calls with parents Collete and Maurice back home in Tallaght.

"It's just wonderful," Maurice told the Irish Independent last night. "He seems to have a great forte for aviation, and we're very proud of him."

His wife Collete said Alan "hadn't changed a bit" since leaving Ireland for the jet-set life in Australia, and still "definitely" has his Irish accent.

"We were over there a few weeks ago, and he had us in Bali and the Gold Coast and Hong Kong," said Maurice.

"He's very good to us, he looks after his parents."

A maths and engineering graduate from Trinity College Dublin, Mr Joyce has frequently credited his parents for making sacrifices to put their four children through college. After university, the maths enthusiast started out at Aer Lingus, where he worked as a research analyst having been knocked back for a pilot's position.

He then moved to Australia in the mid-1990s after turning down a job at a rapidly expanding Ryanair in favour of working for Australia's Ansett, which went to the wall in September 2001. Luckily, Mr Joyce got out in 2000, swapping Ansett for Qantas, where he went on to head up the airline's low-cost division Jetstar with two former Ryanair executives.

He has built up a profile as one of Australia's more affable chief executives, shunning the trappings of a more executive lifestyle in favour of a down-to-earth approach and a newfound passion for Aussie Rules.

In recent years, he had been repeatedly mooted as a candidate to take over from outgoing Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon, and is also believed to have been offered the top job at Aer Lingus in 2005 following Willie Walsh's defection to British Airways.

At Qantas, Mr Joyce will head up a company boasting revenues of $15bn AUD (€9.1bn) last year, and profits of over $1bn AUD (€608m). Like most of the global aviation industry, Qantas has been battered by soaring oil prices coupled with weakening economic conditions, and earlier this month the Australian airline announced plans to axe 1,500 jobs and scrap planes to hire 1,200 workers .

Trinity maths graduate flying high as new chief at Qantas - Business News, Business - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/trinity-maths-graduate-flying-high-as-new-chief-at-qantas-13923272.html)

[fearcampaign]

Keg,

A great post.
I am yet to meet anyone in Qantas who has had a bone to pick with Jetstar pilots.

Most just feel sad that Jetstar are flying on an award that is inferior to that in Qantas.
The opportunity was there to lift conditions but sadly the small majority of idiots got in the way and ruined a great chance for unity.
Look at the pay packets of pilots where there is unified representation and compare it to our sorry lot.

Will we ever learn.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[pilotdude09]

What a joke.

The nerd couldn't even make it as a pilot now hes CEO who's going to kill the company even more. Usual policy cant hack a real job, get promoted :ugh:

There should have been a vote by the shareholders not by the board who are all so far up Dixons arse its not funny.

[TurbTool]

keg,

I am an admirer of your posts and your ability to argue the point and not the man. Please believe me when I say I understand and emphasise with your frustrations.

I can't agree with your assertions in regard to the JPC's intent as that body was not a party to the agreements you state were in place for your seat at the table. Their job was to look after Jetstar pilots.

Equally I enjoy the balanced view genex offers.

I know that great divides can be conquered with good communication and effort from those on either side.

You may not be aware that the new JPA committee is committed to facilitating a ballot of the Jetstar pilots, on Union affiliation/representation. I understand both the AIPA and the AFAP have been invited to provide their input to that process.

That aside many pilots at Jetstar have enjoyed firsthand the ability to speak directly and openly to AJ, expressing their view on AWA's, the latest EBA, and many other issues, at venues organised by AJ to hear those views.

He may even earn your confidence. Who knows?

[Flava Saver]

Keg, I've got to say, a great post.

Where i'm sitting, I see your frustrations. As a J* pilot, and paid up AIPA member, I hope sense will prevail and we achieve a unified group of people, proud of what we do.

Fearcampaign, i agree too. One thing I have to say is when J* techies are paxing whether its duty or staff travel and we ask for the jumpseat on Qantas, and get denied because the skipper has just viewed our ASIC and see the name on it, it makes for a wedge on our side sometimes.

Anyway, not wanting to thread drift here, but Alan is more than happy to chat with the troops at 'road shows' and always willing to put his company AMEX over the bar to buy us some beers etc. It may be a blow to some in QF that he's been appointed, but give him a go, you might all be suprised how approachable he is as a CEO.

[Keg]

Thanks for the vote of confidence all.

Turbtool. I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one. My observation is that the (former it would appear) JPC actively sought to keep AIPA away from any and all discussions regarding J*. As I said to both the QF Chief Pilot and Geoff Dixon at a meeting a number of years back, it's frustrating when long serving and loyal QF employees are treated in a second rate fashion compared to those who a few years before were working for the opposition or not even employed within the group.

Flava, glad that you see the usefulness of unity. AIPA isn't perfect (and none of us would attest that it is) but unity is a good thing.

[captaintunedog777]

Interetsing post Keg and some valid points.

However AIPA hs an agenda to cover QF pilots and not Jetstar. Try convincing the Jetstar pilots otherwise. There are a few cofused pilots in Jetstar land whom oddly enough are members of AIPA.

Had the EBA been voted down. There is no way they would get close to what they are getting now. If you call $200,000 a year for an A320 Cap woefull then I guess you are right about the EBA.

It would be nice to bring the 2 groups together. However not in this universe. It is in the pilots of QF's best interest to unite but certainly not in Jetstar pilots best interest.

Unfortunately AIPA missed the boat years ago. The Jetstar pilots certainly do not eed AIPA now.

[blackguard]

1. John Menadue
2.James Strong
Dixon has been remarkable......for being unremarkable

[captainrats]

"Tubby"Ward was an excellent CEO ...and a gentleman.
He was responsib for the J Class innovation in the days when Qantas led and the world followed.

[neville_nobody]

I'm frustrated that QF keep being told how expensive we are as an airline when no one knows for sure how much assistance QF provided/provides J* both in start up and in an ongoing fashion.

Yeah there is/was alot of smoke and mirrors accounting going on in regard to that.

I also loved in his last press conference how Dixon was 'suprised' that the QF premium product held up so well recently, and was the backbone of revenue. Yet Jetstar was suffering falling revenues. :ugh:

[Shot Nancy]

Talk about thread drift!
Oh come on CTD777. $200k pa (which is not guaranteed) for a J* A320 skipper is hard yakka and is well above your base conditions. I fly with guys who had jet commands in their late 20s on low coin. So what, what are you going to do in 15years time on the same low pay? The jet command fades. So the end (dollars on payslip) justifies the means? How often do you get to see the kids? Do you work to live or live to work? Quality of life is the decider for some.
Unified collective representation is the only way to go. Remember no matter how ****ty the conditions are someone will always accept them as they may be better than their current situation of say living in the bush and refuelling out of drums or living in a desert and dreaming of Oz residency. They will always come so accept it and concentrate on what you can change.
I do agree AIPA have their agenda as do most unions. Just remember who AIPA represents. They can do what they want as long as it does not affect the 744 skippers.

[1746]

Keg, great articulate post! :ok:
The sentiments you put so well are echoed in their own way throughout Qantas Engineering!
Harmony and unity are great assets yet to be realised by the bean counters!
If AJ can realise the capabilty and opportunities presented by an engaged workforce, the results will stun passengers, employees and shareholders alike!
If not heaven help us all.

[tenretni]

Interesting posts, however, ShotNancy and ctd777, you are both way of the mark with your opinions about AIPA and its agenda.

Trust me when I say to you that AIPA is interested in unity and strength in numbers so that we may advance the cause of all QF group pilots.

Nothing more nothing less. You see fellas, we know that by protecting and improving your lot in life we preserve what we enjoy.

Everyones a winner.

The initiative though, must come from both sides of the fence.

:)

[captaintunedog777]

Shot you really have no idea on the facts so I suggest you go and track down some crew and find out for yourself.

[indamiddle]

cabin crew have a minimum height requirement for safety reasons. maybe we could have the same apply to the CEO. at least we would have dodged FOG as well. will be interesting to see if the irishman has enough courage to try the inflight drinks and food, something FOG gave up for fear of what the hosties had done to it first.
30% of fuel is hedged, wonder if this cheaper fuel is shared between divisions? lots of ways to dodgy up the financial results between QF/J*.
J* cabin crew loathe the little fella, maybe something to do with a $5000 p/a pay cut for new employees without consultation with the union. when base pay was $38500 and now starts at $33500 he is not into buying popularity

[genex]

And maybe Prune should have a minimum IQ level for posters Inamiddle....

I guess AJ wishes he was tall. Maybe his mum does too. Maybe his tailor. Maybe he should have red hair and come from Fiji instead. What the heck....except to show your bias and arrogance....does this all have to do with the future of Qantas?

And Tenretni......

"Trust me when I say to you that AIPA is interested in unity and strength in numbers so that we may advance the cause of all QF group pilots.

Nothing more nothing less. You see fellas, we know that by protecting and improving your lot in life we preserve what we enjoy"


Amazing. Truly amazing. I am actually stunned. Is this a guarantee that AIPA will work to lift the T & C of every JQ pilot while preserving the right of all JQ pilots to fly the 787 in order of JQ seniority as they would have if there'd been no AIPA? However many 787s Jetstar gets?

Are there steak knives too?

Sorry...didn't mean to be frivolous. It's just so good to see AIPA's official (and may I say selfless though extremely patronizing position) finally published "No Jetstar pilot will live in poverty...".

Will....and here I cut to the chase....will AIPA take actual industrial action to change the JQ EBA to ensure this?

Or....will AIPA actually support the new CEO of the whole Qantas Group (of which AIPA pilots represent less than 7% of the employees)?

[Keg]

It's getting a little tired genex but let me once again put forward the QF pilot position. It's a position that is virtually identical to AIPAs. I note that you conveniently ignored this from my previous but I shouldn't be surprised as you tend to ignore my posts when I've shone the spotlight onto your distortions and game playing.

Is this a guarantee that AIPA will work to lift the T & C of every JQ pilot while preserving the right of all JQ pilots to fly the 787 in order of JQ seniority as they would have if there'd been no AIPA? However many 787s Jetstar gets?

For the umpteenth time, J* pilots get first crack at their own aircraft as per their seniority. QF pilots getting the opportunity to fly J* aircraft do so either with the 'protected' seniority number which already exist and continue to accrue at 7:20 of new hires or follow underneath the J* crew. For the record, the protected J* numbers in QF are now eligible to be F/Os. In a couple of years time they'd be senior enough for 737 captain slots.

Membership of AIPA and representation of J* pilots means that we'd be working together for the future benefit of both pilot groups- something it appears that you are against.

...will AIPA take actual industrial action to change the JQ EBA to ensure this?

You come across as a pretty smart guy and you're forever telling us how dumb we pilots are and conversely how slick you are and so therefore you should know that this is illegal under current legislation with heavy penalties. Therefore your comments here are one of two things. They are either completely uninformed and ignorant or they're posted specifically to obfuscate and distort the truth. Choice is yours.

...will AIPA actually support the new CEO of the whole Qantas Group (of which AIPA pilots represent less than 7% of the employees)?

AIPA and many QF crew have stated many times that we want a strong group moving forward. This hasn't changed. Will you support the new CEO of the QF Group if he kills J* international?

[allthecoolnamesarego]

What a joke.

The nerd couldn't even make it as a pilot now hes CEO who's going to kill the company even more.

Pilotdude09,

Since when does being a pilot mean you have the answers to everything?
What a ridiculous comment. Do you know why he failed? Could have been a physiological problem? You don't know and it is IRRELEVANT to running an airline. He will be in charge of maintenance, flight attendants, catering, transport etc. By your logic, he should be a chef, an engineer, cabin crew, and a bus/car/truck driver. He is a manager who has experience in the field. There is more to an airline than the pilots, dude!

[Lookleft]

Unfortunately AIPA also stated some nasty things in the Senate about the quality of J* and its pilots which got under the skin of its CEO. I'm not sure that it will be a simple case of let bygones be bygones. I think that all the pilots in J* who would be eligible for a protected number in QF are now all Captains so the MOU really does not have much appeal for anyone wanting to go to QF from J*. There is also the issue about funding the training. Why would you fork out money for an F/O spot when you are already in the LHS? The pay for your rating worked both ways.

[WhoFlungDung]

Genex, you crack me up.:D

[ElPerro]

The nerd couldn't even make it as a pilot now hes CEO who's going to kill the company even more.

So let me get this right. The measure of success in ANY senior airline job is whether you could make it as a pilot. I wish that were the case! It's not though.

Should the CEO of BHP be a successful pourer of molten metal? A successful miner?

Should the CEO of Holden be an expert assembler of cars?

Should the CEO of Fosters Group be a master brewer?

Should the CEO of RailCorp be an expert train driver?

If you answer yes to any of the above then you should not be a manager in any company.

[Yarra]

What is actually wrong in the appointment of the new CEO?. Has anyone got the names of people that they know would be a better choice?, if so why?

[Kangaroo Court]

Nobody asked me...I'd be happy to take all that dough!

[tenretni]

Let me ask you that question Genex.
Will you take industrial action to change the JQ EBA?

You see Genex, in all your wisdom you fail to recognise that AIPA or any other industrial body, is not a living being per say but a collective voice of its MEMBERS.

So how is it then that AIPA can call for industrial action when it does not represent JQ pilots as members?

How does AIPA gain a seat at the JQ negotiating table when the very people it seeks to represent turn a blind eye?

Mate you cant have it both ways.

As for steak knives the only one you need to worry about is the one your management is willing to put in your back.

[Angle of Attack]

Or....will AIPA actually support the new CEO of the whole Qantas Group (of which AIPA pilots represent less than 7% of the employees)?

7% of all employees? but a vast majority of pilots in QF! Comparing the percentage of AIPA members with total staff is quite frankly meaningless.

[midsection]

I was thinking along the same lines myself. It does go to show that some on here really have no idea.
Yes guys, operational crew make up a big part of any airline however it takes many to make it happen. Dont think for one moment you are the only ones at the sharp end.:ok:

[genex]

Tenretni

I am well aware that a union is the collective voice of its members. Have been a union member for a very long time.... and at times such as 1989 and the 19 years following, that was at no small cost....I'm not a JQ pilot but if I was I'd be still bruised from the battering and patronizing that the collective voce of QF pilots (via AIPA) has been giving their "lesser" brothers in JQ for years.

I would have thought that the simplest way of AIPA getting back in the saddle of truly wanting to represent all QF drivers is for AIPA to mount a "shock and awe" wildcat campaign to get a scope clause in the QF EBA(s) so all flying was covered by the one protected datal (from date of first joining a QF Group airline, past or present) seniority list...and this would include QantasLink and JQ as well. A 72 hour strike that grounded every jet with a Rat on its tail would be a good start to see the collective will of AIPA at work. If you were united as one then there'd be no sanctions.

Or....do nothing....except slowly work with the AFAP to build a decent single union, starting with tech and safety issues and let it happen gently, not as an overt AIPA grab for the 787 jobs and the destruction of JQ. What you need to see is that sensible pilots are able to balance and trade off lifestyle, future opportunities, pay, equipment and command opportunities. QFLink and JQ offer alternatives to the legacy model. Why force the dull greyness of uniformity on all...especially when "all" means a bunch of pilots no AIPA member would invite home to dinner?

If in addition to joining with the AFAP at a tech and safety level....and here we return to the thread....the Chairman of AIPA could ask the incoming CEO "how can the Qantas pilots best support new jobs, more promotions, more destinations and profitability?"....then you could get somewhere. That would be an act of some statesmanship. Or there's the alternative.........

[Led Zeppelin]

All these motherhood statements about the inclusive nature of the AIPA and how rosy things would be under the one umbrella is just a smokescreen.

Membership of AIPA and representation of J* pilots means that we'd be working together for the future benefit of both pilot groups.....

With QF mainline having 4 times the number of pilots as JQ, if the sh!t hits the fan, where would a vote by AIPA fall. Certainly not on the side of the JQ pilots.

Comments in the courts (Canberra) several years ago by the AIPA reflect the true, and as Genex says, the "patronizing" attitude of some of the AIPA executive and members - they despise Jetstar and everything it does. They see JQ pilots as pariahs taking their flying.

Any move to get JQ pilots under AIPA coverage is a HUGE mistake. I wonder if KEG would have the same attitude if he was in Jetstar looking at things from different coloured glasses?

The AFAP is not the perfect answer, but in the current industrial climate, a more preferable option for JQ pilots.

[Keg]

Led, I've been banging on about pilot unity for much longer than J* has been in existence.

This is the AIPA burst re Joyce as CEO. It should take care of genex's concerns. :rolleyes: :ugh:

“The Australian and International Pilots Association today cautiously welcomed the appointment of Alan Joyce as Qantas Chief Executive Officer and say it represents an opportunity to improve relations between the people who have made Qantas a success – pilots and other employees - and senior management.

If the recent events of Friday’s QF30 incident proves anything, it’s that aviation is not simply “just another business” – teamwork and listening to employees is the key to maintaining the historically high Qantas standards. Our hope is that Alan Joyce has been thinking about the same things.

There is no doubt Qantas is going to face significant challenges in the future and that those challenges will require all parts of the company to work together.

With Alan’s appointment we look forward to further opening the lines of communication between Qantas senior management and pilots.

Today is also a landmark day with Geoff Dixon standing down as CEO.

Despite our disagreements over the years, it’s timely to reflect on the fact that Qantas is now better placed to take advantage of international developments in the aviation industry than it was when Geoff took over the reins and he deserves credit for that.

Aviation attracts passionate people and Geoff Dixon certainly falls into that category. We wish him well in what will undoubtedly be an active retirement.”

[DEFCON4]

A drovers dog could have run Qantas over the last 10 years with a commonsense approach.
It would be in a lot better shape than it is now if someone else other than Dixon has run the place.
Dixons success is myth.

[teggun]

G'Day Keg,

Just wondering where does the Qantaslink pilot group fit into the overall scheme of things, considering at this stage they don't have any jets to bargin with.

Cheers

[Keg]

Seniority wise? It's the stated aim of AIPA that all pilots employed by the group go onto a group seniority list. That way it doesn't matter whether you start as a Dash 8 F/O, a J* A320 F/O or a mainline S/O you can ultimately bid for a 744 command, A380 command, 787 command, etc, etc. Obviously there are some issues to get across in terms of ensuring that people don't feel hard done by.

As quick example, I don't think we should consider datal seniority to fly the 787- which genex suggested we should do. The reason I say 'no' to that is that I know that most J* drivers wouldn't have the seniority to fly them. There are currently 1100 QF drivers with start dates prior to 1995. I wonder how many J* drivers have that sort of seniority? (As a side issue, this highlights genex's lack of thinking in blind attempts to take a shot at QF drivers. He throws up a daft suggestion that would see the mainline pilot group ostracised by everyone- CEO, shareholders, public and most importantly, those that we seek to work with as colleagues.

So the way to solve the 'group opportunity list' is to quarantine your own flying first and then open it up to the wider group after all your current crew have had the opportunity to bid for it. Current regional guys and gals get first crack at regional commands. They get access to mainline commands on datal seniority after all current mainline crew have passed it up. However if a J* command came up then that goes datal after all J* crew have passed it up. Anyone who joins after a particular date is pure datal seniority no matter where you start your flying career in the group.

How close are we to that now? Not very. Why? The Qantas 'group'- and many others like Led Zepplin and genex- don't want their pilots being that collegiate and working together. They much prefer us running each other down in a bid to see who can do things more cheaply.

[teggun]

Thanks Keg,

Hopefully in time, all will be resolved.

Cheers.

[Muff Hunter]

Keg,

I like the idea of a group list where we can all pick and choose our job discriptions so to speak, but I fail to see where this would benefit the JQ pilots....

At present most JQ pilots who have started in the past 2 years will have a command in the next 2 years and those who won't get one can take a FO spot on the 787..

At present why would a JQ pilot go to QF when they could only take a S/O positon (other than for the cash)

If JQ pilolts could transfer to mainline and collect mainline salaries I see this as the only way this will work!! (don't think this will ever happen)

Also, I believe the group list would only benefit QF pilots (careers not cash) at the present time....

[indamiddle]

hi genex, i think keg is closer to the mark. we are both ignorant, not arrogant. sorry if the crack about booster seats bothered you for some reason.... lighten up and get a merged seniority list under one group, something that will never happen in the f/a ranks due to a short range outlook mentality

[FGD135]

Congratulations, Alan Joyce - you have big shoes to fill.

Farewell, Geoff Dixon. Although you were not as touchy-feely as some here would like, history will come to show you as one of the top ten airline executives of all time - you were magnificent.

[blueloo]

Did you get a free pack of "Manpons" for that wonderful statement FGD135?

[packrat]

Are a size 7...not that big really.

[Shot Nancy]

There are about 17 J* pilots who joined before 1995.

[Keg]

Thanks Shot Nancy. Interesting numbers.

Muff, fair question. What's in it for the J* crew with a group list. The current captains? Probably very little. The current F/Os? Very little in the short term although they may like the opportunity to bid onto a different long haul (or short haul) fleet in 10-15 years time). What's in it for the QF crew? Current captains? Nil. Current F/Os? Bugger all although some would go. Current S/Os? Lots. They get the opportunity to get promotion before some person on the street. Given that they've been part of the group in a lot of cases for a few years I reckon that's OK. Keep in mind that we haven't yet drawn the line in the sand as to where the GOL starts. Current J* crew still get first access to the upgrade to captain but those not yet employed by J* with effect from (say) 1 Aug 08 will suddenly find themselves behind 2500 QF pilots in terms of the GOL. Of course this latter fact may explain why some of those not employed by J*- like Led and I think genex isn't either if I recall correctly- are so anti the GOL and pilots working together. It would mean that the upgrade they have in mind in three years time when they start with J* once they're finished with whoever they're with at the moment in 12 months time will now be behind the 2500 QF pilots and however many regional pilots who joined the group before they did. Of course they don't publicly state that but you can see it in the rabid way they attack any mere mention of pilot unity with QF mainline pilots.

A GOL does nothing for me either. I have my command training and assuming I knock it over then my life is pretty good. I see no need to consider J* in the short to medium term- unless someone makes me an offer I couldn't refuse! :ok:

So, pay and conditions then. Under a GOL you go to the pay and conditions you bid for. If I bid for a J* 787 command- once all the current J* crew have had the chance to knock it back- then I go on J* terms and conditions. If you bid for a mainline 744 F/O slot in a few years then you go on those terms and conditions.

However, personally I'd like to see pay and conditions ironed out across the group so that an A320 gig is the same as a 737 and no difference in terms and conditions between J* and QF for the 787. It may be a pipe dream but it's worth at least discussing and working towards. That may mean that QF drivers accept a little less, it may mean that J* drivers get a little more. It may mean that QF drivers get no less and J* drivers get a bit more again.

[Muff Hunter]

Nice one Keg....

Here's hoping anyway.....with the looming election for the JQ guys it wll be interesting to see how AIPA approach us to get us on board..

There is still a lot of sceptism when it comes to AIPA, especially after Ian Woods comments a few days ago in the Herald Sun..

[max autobrakes]

What comments were they, Muff?

[neville_nobody]

Keg I doubt that Jetstar will cop such huge pay rises! It's a long way up from Jetstar to Virgin not mention then to QF 73 wages.

[Led Zeppelin]

this is an extract from the Herald Sun.


...........AIPA had been arguing it would be good financial sense for the 787 to start service with the higher-yielding Qantas rather than the low-cost offshoot Jetstar ......

and:

However, he (Ian Woods) believed the enterprise agreement had secured the future of Qantas pilots as operators of the Boeing 787.

Once again, AIPA is barely concealing the fact that 787 flying should be started by Qantas mainline.:=

Jetstar pilots should be under no allusion as to the intentions of the AIPA - and it has nothing to do with a mutual "love in".

More like a lube free shafting.:ugh:

[genex]

So if JQ wanted, for all the very best of reasons, to hire DEC 777 Captains and F/Os next year to provide a chunk of the crew for the initial delivery group of 15 787s', AIPA wouldn't let them?

As for me, your humble servant Genex.....I have no desire to ever be on a QF seniority list and if I were ever lucky enough to fly a 787 I'd rather be trained by an experienced 777 training captain than a warmed over Qantas 767 driver.

However, the contingency is, as they say, an unlikely one. I am happily ensconced in my garden wondering whether to bother putting a new oil seal on my beloved rotary hoe.

Out of interest....given the published and anecdotal pay rates for QF S/Os, would they really want to move over to JQ? I am assuming that S/O time in any case wouldn't count as actual experience to get you directly into the left hand seat of a 320 and certainly not a 787.

I'd be guessing that JQ would want to see a QF MOU S/O (how about that for a bunch of acronyms?) put through his/her paces for 1500 hrs in the right seat of a 320 before letting them have any further career progression at all. Conceivably some 767 F/Os might want Cruise Captain jobs on the JQ 787 which would lead in time to 320 commands then eventually back to the JQ 787 left seat, years and years before they could ever get that job in QF mainline, if and when they ever get some 787s. But not, though, if the AIPA GOL list were ever to be implemented.

Back to the hoe.

[packrat]

Do you ever work?
All you do is stir the pot with comparatively nonsensical assertions.
For an outsider you seem to have opinions on everyhthing.
Opinions seemingly based on information you glean from the Sydney daily telegraph.
Was that a "Skanky Hoe"you were getting back to?

[Keg]

Ah Led. I knew you'd be along to take a poorly worded and out of context media statement and use it as an excuse to continue to expand that chip that resides firmly on your shoulder.

For the record, EBA8 states that it covers the flying of 787s in Qantas livery. It secures us as 'operators of the 787'. Anyone without a chip on their shoulder and some basic comprehension skills should be able to realise that this doesn't necessarily mean that we'd be operators of all of them. J* still get to crew their aircraft. :rolleyes:

Further, if you'd read into other discussions on these forums over the past few weeks there has been a number of contributors- myself included- who have discussed the wisdom of persisting with a tired and fuel thirsty domestic product in the 767 for the next five to six years when J* international is already flogging around on (supposedly) efficient A330s. It's no secret. Besides, I thought that you were previously of the mantra that the assets should go to where they get the best return? Surely replacing the 767 domestically is going to get a far better return than flogging the 787 on low cost 'softening' (Dixon's words) international routes. So surely AIPA is actually talking in the shareholders best interests with this? :E

Genex, if QF felt it needed that experience then they have ways of doing it. That said, I question whether or not it's needed. You can't tell me that between QF and J* that they don't have the experience needed to bring in a new type such as the 787? Seriously? QF has a truck load of experience on Boeing twins, ETOPS operations, boeing aircraft, etc. The flight instrumentation set up on the 787 is similar to the 744 and the systems are similarly set up to the 767. I've seen the panel diagrams for the 787 and they are broadly consistent with both the 767 and the 744. Further QF does have recent history of bringing in DEC for an identified need.

This would make your post ignorant at best.

Out of interest....given the published and anecdotal pay rates for QF S/Os, would they really want to move over to JQ?

Some possibly would in order to get the promotion....particulary if they've not been in QF too long and want the window seat.

I am assuming that S/O time in any case wouldn't count as actual experience to get you directly into the left hand seat of a 320 and certainly not a 787.

So time spent in GA and then in the back and front seat of a 744/A330A380 isn't doesn't count as 'experience' but someone coming from GA straight into the right hand seat of an A320 is OK for J*? You're seriously deluded! :rolleyes:

You may be going back to the hoe but I suspect that you really live under a bridge like most trolls. :=

[Dale Hardale]

Surely replacing the 767 domestically is going to get a far better return than flogging the 787 on low cost 'softening' (Dixon's words) international routes. So surely AIPA is actually talking in the shareholders best interests with this? Keg,

I thnk this whole thing has much more to do with global issues in the context of getting the overall Qantas product down to a much lower cost base, rather than specific details of operating costs. This cost move is all the more imperative given the rising cost of Jet Fuel and the lack of hedging after 2009.

So I believe Qantas mainline in the future will be stripped of as much of the high cost components as possible, and these elements will be moved into the so called "low cost" vehicle.

Every one jokes about the fact that the Jetstar aircraft will be repainted in QF colours once this transformation is complete - but is it really a joke ?

I am not going to get involved in the AIPA or Jetstar pilot union discussions, just to say that I'm sure there are people on both sides who have very vested interests in the future as they see it.

[Ka.Boom]

The price of fuel is coming off historical highs as the speculators leave and demand softens.
All this conversation about costs will become irrelevant if fuel continues its slide and breaks through $100/barrell.
Qantas manegement have used every instance of drama over the last ten years to drive down costs while still making greater profits and paying more bonuses to Execs.
While the LC model was necessary for the domestic market it has also been used as a weapon to frighten mainline( across all departments)when negotiating EBAs.
All this nonsense about Jet* being a global force is vacuous nonsense.Look at its network and fleet size....puny.
Harbison makes this stuff up after 2 bottles of "76 Grange supplied by his good friends at Qantas.
Look at the foreseeable global airline picture and it becomess abundantly clear that there will some real opportunities for those that are cashed up and are capable of providing a premium product

[mach2male]

Qantas is cashed up but its current product is rubbish.
The brand has been trashed and the emotional connection with travellers(particulalry in Australia) has been irreversably severed.
There is another thread somewhere on PPrune where this has been discussed at length.
The trashing of the brand has been deliberate IMHO.

[Capt_SNAFU]

How do you get 2500+ mainline pilots onto jetstar conditions. You don't, well not very quickly. They want to pressure the mainline which is their job. QF mainline has five times the number of J* pilots. Much too valuable a resource to lose. All the scrambling of J* will get this and that ( like all the 787s) at the expense of the QF is rot. Where wil they get the drivers from?

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-

"The trashing of the brand [QANTAS] has been deliberate IMHO."

---------------------

I think you are right.

[newsensation]

Hi Keg,
In your grand plan were do the Regional Pilots sit, they work for a wholly owned subsidiary just like J*, is it a datal list??? Do you rule a line accross the seniority lists of Qantas Mainline, Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.

[Keg]

newsensation (great song by INXS by the way).

I think I addressed that on the previous page.

So the way to solve the 'group opportunity list' is to quarantine your own flying first and then open it up to the wider group after all your current crew have had the opportunity to bid for it. Current regional guys and gals get first crack at regional commands. They get access to mainline commands on datal seniority after all current mainline crew have passed it up. However if a J* command came up then that goes datal after all J* crew have passed it up. Anyone who joins after a particular date is pure datal seniority no matter where you start your flying career in the group.

Does that answer the question?

It means that a Dash 8 skipper who joined in 1992 would get the opportunity to bid for a J* 787 command before me. They'd be trumped by the QF F/O who joined in 91. They'd all be trumped by the current J* F/O who joined in 2007.....or whatever date we pick to start the GOL. To be fair that date should be sometime in the future so that current crew aren't adversely affected.

[Kangaroo Court]

Why should flying a 787 be all that hard? None of the others are! All this crap about a 767/777, Dash 8 or anything else is nonsense. They all fly pretty much the same way once you get 25/50 hours at the helm and about a dozen landings in.

[Keg]

I think it's only genex that suggested that the 787 was so hard that it required previous 777 experience in order to introduce it! :E The group opportunity list has nothing to do with what experience you need to fly various types, just what you want to bid for.

[Jabawocky]

Gooday KEG

Been watching this from the sidelines and can't help myself....... you know the story from elsewhere, but given another 18 landings on the 767 I might almost come up to scratch hey!!!!;)

OK.... you have had ya chuckle (:} :ooh:) now its back to your story......

J:ok:

[teresa green]

What a bunch of pessimists, give the bloke a chance it might not be as painful as you think. No need to take in laundry just yet, he is a determined little bastard, and will probably want to run things his way, and stuff Dixon once he gets his hand on the helm, at least he has been known to actually speak to tech and cabin crew, rather than Dixon who would prefer to run barefoot thru a paddock full of bulls%it, before even looking at you.

[Kangaroo Court]

Remember what those American Airlines pilots used to say about Robert Crandall? They said he was, "An ass-hole, but at least he's ours!"

He could be a total pain to the Washington folk and fought everything at the capitol. When he left American Airlines; the airline suffered almost immediately.

This Joyce bloke might be just what you need to whip it all back into shape.

You never know!

[D.P. Gumby]

I hope he now realises how much Qantas has spent on getting J* up and running and everything to do with J* has come at great expense to Qantas. I work in engineering and we do all their servicing with no recompense at all. Some money, "we have been told", has been paid, but engineering at the SIT and Base have not seen a cent. (Sounds a lot like Air New Zealand/Ansett demise)

Recently at a Managers meeting at which some Engineering personnel were in attendance. (discussion turned to Qantas Vs John Holland bid for A380 Engineering) We were asked if one of the new A380's which was being serviced by JH was in trouble, would we go to their aid as it was a Qantas aircraft. Well you could have heard a pin drop when they were told NO. That would be JH's problem and if this company wanted to give Qantas Engineering to JH then they would have to suffered the consequences.

Recently J* announced that they were not inviting Qantas Engineering to bid for the 787 contract as they were going to do all their servicing themselves. Where they are going to get enough experienced engineers with a new type license, to handle the 60 odd aircraft they're going to be getting, is beyond us.

I can't wait to see J* flounder out there with inexperienced LAME's and AME's. It should be fun to watch them try and operate on their own with out the support of Qantas Engineering.

Let's see if they win anymore Low Cost Airline awards when things turn to SH1T.

Best of Luck A.J. you have inherited an Engineering mess, which will need to be handled with a lot more diplomacy than your predecessor possessed.

[Reeltime]

What a laughable assertion that you need 777 time to train on a 787! Really genex, you're just losing it now.

Didn't this sort of crap get thrown around in the early days of glass cockpits?...'sorry son that 727 endoresment just doesn't cut it, you need glass time to fly this A310'

I think this was the attitude in the sandpit at one stage from memory.

Ok genex it's now clear where your hatred of mainline pilots comes from. You're still bitter that Qantas pilots didn't go on strike in support of the federation in '89...c'mon admit it.

I think YOU need to wait for spring, and smell those roses. Do it before your bile finally rises too high and chokes you.

[blow.n.gasket]

I'd like to see the stats on 1st time jet endorsed pilots of the Airbus variety converting to Boeing, just how well do they do?
Hasn't Boeing got some stats on this?
Aren't there a lot of low time Airbus only endorsed pilots in JetStar?
Can't wait to see the pass rate with min cost endorsements all the rage!:ok:

[thosecotos]

Recently J* announced that they were not inviting Qantas Engineering to bid for the 787 contract as they were going to do all their servicing themselves. Where they are going to get enough experienced engineers with a new type license, to handle the 60 odd aircraft they're going to be getting, is beyond us.

I can't wait to see J* flounder out there with inexperienced LAME's and AME's. It should be fun to watch them try and operate on their own with out the support of Qantas Engineering.



You might have to wait quite a while if you think JQ will flounder with Engineering inexperience? Are you really that far up yourself? I know a lot of their LAME's and they are some of the more talented and experienced guys getting around...they'll do just fine without you.

[genex]

Why on earth would Jetstar convert "low time" airbus pilots onto the 787?

Almost every Airbus pilot they currently have today would by definition have at least 750 hours more (and that would be say 350 sectors minimum) by next September/October when I guess the first crews would hit the sim. It will take probably 18 months minimum for the 15 787s to arrive so the lowest crews on the totem pole will be racking up even more hours by the time their turn comes.

I've never seen a JQ crew in action in the simulator but I have no special reason to think that they're of any higher or lower standard than anyone else at other airlines. If anything the fact that the young pilots go straight into the 320 right seat and do lots of sectors would mean their skills would develop faster than someone stuck in the back seat of a 744.

As for "Airbus only" pilots converting to FBW Boeings.....at my old airline plenty of guys did it and didn't seem to be a problem. I heard JQ have plenty of 777/744 captains on their books so I don't suppose getting the Boeing flavour into the place will be difficult.

[Keg]

As for "Airbus only" pilots converting to FBW Boeings.....at my old airline plenty of guys did it and didn't seem to be a problem. I heard JQ have plenty of 777/744 captains on their books so I don't suppose getting the Boeing flavour into the place will be difficult.

Given that it's not a problem to convert and that previous Boeing experience is of benefit, why do your previous comments deride the Boeing experience in Qantas? Why too do your previous comments indicate that previous 777 experience is required on the 777 if conversion to the 787 is so easy- even for those who have only have Airbus experience? :rolleyes: I know that when your inconsistencies are pointed out genex you tend to not bother with a real response so I won't hold my breath waiting for one. :E

[Chardy]

Hi friends - had a chat with a J* Asia F/O yesterday at WSSS...he wasn't aware of the forum so I have pointed him here.

To supplement some of Keg's offerings for our new friend - and as mentioned in the title I am not QF or J* - it's simply a question - are J* Asia tech on the same EBA's as J* AUS?

Cheers - and hey to all of you folks affected in whichever way by the new appointment - best wishes - hope it works out well for everyone concerned.

Chardster...

[genex]

Keg,

As a young genex, I was at an airline where they got their first jet (my dearly beloved 727) and no-one who went on it had ever flown a jet before. They managed very very well.

I'll bet if there were no jets in the world and the 787 was the first, then JQ or anyone else would manage that well too.

The issue is choice....if you had a choice, given the brother/sister relationship b/w 777 and 787, you would choose experienced 777 drivers to be your lead instructors. Its that simple.

In no way am I putting down QF drivers....hardly their fault that the airline never ordered 777s.

I would have thought that a 767 crew would have no trouble going onto the 787. Now that Manning has gone you should all press your new CP to open up the MOU.

[Dragun]

Thought this might interest some of you. In the spirit of CEOs actually being active in protecting and nurturing their relationship with staff and the airline (ANZ CEO comes to mind) have a look at this interview on Larry King with the CEO of JetBlue Airways, Dave Barger. Interesting part is how he took a 50% pay cut to prevent staff cuts...

CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0808/06/lkl.01.html)

[Ka.Boom]

Sunfish you have made many insightful posts over the years .The posts that you have made over the last few days would tend to indicate that someone has stolen your PPrune password.
Suggesting that AJ admires the IRA is a little....shall we say ...silly

[Condition lever]

Sunfish,

How about taking a slight amount of responsibility for your posts?
If you had actually bothered to conduct even the most cursitory check of the facts you ascribe to the "person" you ran into, you would have found out that AJ has never had anything to do with Ryanair - he was employed by Aer Lingus.

As for then going on to post that anyone is a "fan" of the I.R.A. - I hope AJ does a "Dick Smith" and takes you to court. I can't think of a more stupid statement (in a forum that has many) than this.

[Tidbinbilla]

Now that Sunfish has "soiled himself" - let's get back on topic, shall we?

We're not talking about who's dick's bigger, you QF and JQ types := it's about Alan Joyce.

Cranky TID

[Sunfish]

I abjectly apologise for alleging that Mr. Joyce is/was a fan or has any sympathies with of the IRA. I have no knowledge of this matter at all except hearsay from a person whose veracity I cannot confirm.

Satisfy you Mr. Tid?

[captaintunedog777]

You are a di%#head sunfish.

[Sunfish]

I'll watch you rot, tunedog.

[flyingins]

You can watch me rot while you're at it, Sunfish.

In not so many words I've suggested this to you before. Please let me do it again;

"Never miss the opportunity to shut-up". Here's your chance.

GO!

[Fantome]

I'll watch you rot, tunedog.

There seems a whiff of the Afrikaans. Grudge? Grudge? I don't have a grudge. A grudge is where I pork my corr.

Or work a similar accent round - "Where I come from we make fertilizer out of better than you."

[Much Ado]

Topic seems to be eluding you lot still...easily fixed.

Click