Qantas 744 Depressurisation

[Flightsimman]

Greetings,

News article from the News Online website "www.news.com.au"

A QANTAS flight plunged 20,000 feet after a door 'popped' mid-flight, passengers are reporting.

The plane has just made an emergency landing in the Philippines following reports that a door "popped", causing depressurisation, during a flight between London and Melbourne.

Qantas is refusing to confirm the incident, but passengers who have called Herald Sun Online say oxygen masks dropped from the ceiling during the incident.

Others said the plane suddenly plunged from 30,000 feet to 10,000 feet.

One passenger reported the pilot did 'an amazing job' of controlling the craft.

Flight QF 30 was due to arrive in Melbourne around 10pm tonight.

It was one hour from Hong Kong when the incident occured.

The plane is now on the tarmac at Manila airport with all passengers - the majority of them Australians - on board.

[Romeo India Xray]

Proving nothing other than sensational journalism is not confined to the northern hemisphere :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I will check back later when some FACTS about the incident may have been posted.

[Willoz269]

Sounds like a pressure cabin problem handled "by the book"....people tend to think that the sight of oxy masks on descent is a sign of imminent death!

[Buster Hyman]

Just found out my Brother in Law was on that flight. I believe he's in a little bit of shock at the moment.:eek:

I'll see what I can find out.....

BREAKING NEWS: A QANTAS flight to Melbourne plunged 20,000 feet after a faulty door left a 'big gap' in the side of the plane.
The plane made an emergency landing in Manila around 1:20pm after a door 'popped' and caused an 'explosive' de-pressurisation during a flight between London and Melbourne.
Qantas is refusing to confirm the incident, but passengers who have called Herald Sun Online say oxygen masks dropped from the ceiling during the incident.
The plane is believed to have suddenly plunged from 30,000 feet to 10,000 feet.
Passenger Brendan McClements said there was a sudden 'gust of wind' through the plane.
''There was a degree of surprise - people questioning what it was,'' he said.
''There was a rush of wind as the air pressure came down. It got people's attention. It was then a matter of getting the masks on.''
Another passenger described how children burst into tears after a 'quick bang' reverberated throught the cabin. She said the plane plunged, but then stabilised after about five minutes.
Mr McClements, the chief executive of Victorian Major Events, praised the pilot and crew.
''The crew were terrific they did a great job. Everyone gave them a round of applause as we landed.''
Mr McClements said the faulty door was on the 'driver's side' of the plane, just before the wing. He said there was ''a big gap where the door used to be''.
He said other passengers seemed in ''resonably good spirits''.
Another passenger reported the masks fell from the ceiling, the plane "dropped suddenly" and there was a "fairly explosive" depressurisation.
One passenger reported the pilot did 'an amazing job' of controlling the craft.
Flight QF 30 was due to arrive in Melbourne around 10pm tonight.
It was one hour from Hong Kong when the incident occured.
The plane is currently on the tarmac at Manila airport with all passengers - the majority of them Australians - on board.
"Qantas can confirm Qantas flight 30 from Hong Kong to Melbourne has been diverted to Manila," a Qantas spokeswoman said.
"The aircraft is on the ground and being inspected as we speak."
The spokeswoman would not comment on the cause of the incident.
Sarah Wotherspoon, Mark Dunn, Matt Pinkney and Craig Binnie

My bold...for those who drive on the wrong side of the road, I think he means the right/starboard side of the aircraft...as you look forward.;)

Well done to the crew btw.:D

[Mr YSSY]

"Suddenly plunged" and "an amazing job of controlling the craft".

The day a journalist responds to a passenger comment like this with "and what leads you to believe that?" will be the day I'll walk through KSF international departures naked.

[cambruzzo]

Qantas plane makes emergency landing after undercarriage rupture

Posted 5 minutes ago
Updated 4 minutes ago
A Qantas 747 has made an emergency landing in the Philippines capital Manila because of a large rupture in the plane's undercarriage.
The plane was travelling from London to Hong Kong, and none of the passengers have been seriously injured.
Speaking from the Manila airport, Melbourne woman Dr June Kane says she heard a loud bang from underneath the plane, and saw debris fly through the cabin.
"I'm looking at the plane now and on the left hand side, just forward of the wing, there's a gaping hole from the wing to the underbody," she said.
"It's about two metres by four metres and there's baggage hanging out so you assume that there's a few bags that may have gone missing."

THIS IS FROM ABC.NET.AU

[Flightsimman]

These journo's don't understand that the "plunge" probably saved some lives!

Still though I think it's only a matter of time until "QF's" luck runs out (especially when they want to out-source everything).

I just hope I am not on one when it does happen.

[OliV2]

Let's just wait and see people.....a bit too early to start the standard QF beating .http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon9.gif The press reports are pretty poor at the moment. I don't think anyone can glean the truth from the crap that has been posted so far.

[priapism]

Yes ,

Despite the normal ordinary journalism -for the "Joe Average" fare paying punter , who has no idea about the procedure for decompression , this would have been a terrifying experience.

This is another significant incident for Q.F.

I can't wait for the photos of the damage to come out - I bet the Q.F spin doctors will do their best to limit photograhic exposure of the damage which, by early accounts will look rather bad.

You reap what you sew Q.F - I hope this bites the bean counters at Q.F hard on the arse.

[Buster Hyman]

Too late priaprism!

Ok, B.I.L. has sent me a photo, but I can't upload from my phone. Not a great picture, but from what I can see, the fairing at the wing root (starboard) looks like it has gone. As in, not there. The photo is taken front on, but from what I can see, the fwd cargo door appears to be in place, so if anyone has a better understanding of what is in that vicinity...:confused:

(For the record, B.I.L. was formerly a FSO...not prone to hysterical rantings in the press)

EDIT:Can't recall how large that panel is but after zooming in on the image, it looks like the missing section actually goes underneath the area as well.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Does anyone know the registration of the aircraft? I wonder if it was one of the three ugly sisters? (QF bought three used B744s a few years ago from two different asian carriers - and they've often been referred to as that...)

The comment about bags seen hanging out is a bit concerning.

Well done to the crew.:ok:

[Buster Hyman]

Non hysterical passenger quote:

"Probably looks worse than it is but, when you see the roof of the galley collapse with a loud bang...you tend not to have happy thoughts" :ooh:

[HotDog]

"I'm looking at the plane now and on the left hand side, just forward of the wing, there's a gaping hole from the wing to the underbody," she said.
"It's about two metres by four metres and there's baggage hanging out so you assume that there's a few bags that may have gone missing."

If the FWD Cargo door is intact, as Buster says; it sounds like a pneumatic duct rupture near the cross over duct. I don't think you can blame this on the bean counters though.:rolleyes:

[gchriste]

Source: www.smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au):

Melbourne passenger Sarah Lucas she was shocked to see a gash of between 1.8 and 2.4 metres where the wing intersects plane's fusellage.
Ms Lucas, who was flying with her 19-year-old sister Olivia, said she had believed a door had opened mid-flight until she saw the torn metal.

"We were in the business class cabin and we heard a loud bang. We thought one of the doors had become open because there was a lot of papers rushing through the cabin ... it felt like a gush of wind," Ms Lucas said.

[Buster Hyman]

If someone can upload images & PM's me an Aussie mobile fone nbr, I'll forward this piccy to them.

[OliV2]

So in the cargo hold? Could explain the "gust of wind" described by one passenger as the vents kicked in. This is going to be an interesting one.:confused: The "plunge" from 30k to 10k ft that the news reports are focussing on is just SOP for a decomp. so is hardly the point.

[gchriste]

Of course it is SOP, but it is never good PR. The pilots followed the SOP and did a good job by the sounds of it, but unfortuantly one wonders what the SOP contains for the spin doctors in this situation :}

[pacplyer]

Does anyone know the registration of the aircraft? I wonder if it was one of the three ugly sisters? (QF bought three used B744s a few years ago from two different asian carriers - and they've often been referred to as that...)

The comment about bags seen hanging out is a bit concerning....

Stellar reporting as usual.

Thank goodness the bags are O.K. It didn't work out so good for Aloha. Yep. Sucked one right out the roof......

[HALFPINT]

+61 424 175 003 - i'll email them to you

[Mech-prentice]

I'm told it was OJK. Tech Log is unavailable online: "Restricted".

My favourite eyewitness statement so far is that the hole is "on the driver's side".

[flyingfox]

Why the instant fury at the passengers and journos who use their 'own words' to describe an aviation incident. They don't know the terms, procedures and lingo. If a passenger describes a standard emergency descent as a 'plunge', then fair enough. Compared to normal profiles it is something of a 'plunge'. Use your own knowledge to decipher the 'code'. The worlds not going to end over an over excited report. Some of the passengers would have been somewhat agitated.
:E

[SUB]

I was told by a certain person that one of the oxygen bottles let go in the fwd cargo.

[griffin one]

Photo reqd before making assumptions,The media read here.Well done to the crew cabin and tech,for doing what you have been trained to do.
some of these so called media reporters wouldnt know how altitude vs oxygen works.

[Bravohotel]

The report I read it was QF30 HKG-MEL and some bags may have been lost (thats passengers luggage!!!!) hope no fisherman were hit in the South China sea......

[paulrcgb]

GMANews.TV - Latest Philippine Breaking, Business, Sports, Entertainment News and Blogs - Official Website of GMA News and Public Affairs - Latest Philippine News - BETA (http://www.gmanews.tv/index.html)

it's number 3 in the pictures in news.

[vortsa]

I think I can recall there was an MEL requiring a physical check of OXY every transit. Not sure if it was OJK

[OliV2]

Thanks for the yellow card Flyingfox. While you are correct, I think it is more the Journos we are having a dig out. The sensationalism in the press around aviation in particular is not helpful. Not just aviation either. Everything is a 'disaster' or a 'meltdown', every stock 'tanks', every plane 'plunges out of the sky' etc etc...dumbing down of news in my opinion. Anyway, for the record I also loved the "driver's side" quote. My other favourite at the moment is the girl who thought a door might have opened. Don't get me wrong, not having a go at her in anyway, it is just funny. Also agree with the poster who pointed out that press read this site.......

[Mech-prentice]

Why the instant fury at the passengers and journos who use their 'own words' to describe an aviation incident. They don't know the terms, procedures and lingo. If a passenger describes a standard emergency descent as a 'plunge', then fair enough. Compared to normal profiles it is something of a 'plunge'. Use your own knowledge to decipher the 'code'. The worlds not going to end over an over excited report. Some of the passengers would have been somewhat agitated.

I have no problem with passengers making mistakes. I do object to reporters editorialising and using phrases like "the pilot struggled to maintain control as the plane plummeted over 6000 metres". Thanks Channel 9 - that was completely unneccessary.

[Betablockeruk]

BBC seem to be quite level headed about the incident other than flashing it up as "BREAKING NEWS".

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Hole forces Qantas plane to land (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7524733.stm)

[vanHorck]

CNN shows a pic on TV. Looks like a big hole

[Cool banana]

Just saw a picture of the damaged area appears to be on the right just below the No2 MED and around the forward wing to body fairing. Nice rip in the skin, Also saw a number of passengers bags in the wing to body fairings area.

So has OJK been to Singapore for a heavy check lately?
Where is the staple gun this time?

[pacplyer]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and speculate (no photos, so don't string me up here.....) The driver's side down under is the right of course. Baggage/gapping hole also sounds like this could be on the right side if the ramp reporter thinks from a perspective of sitting inside the plane. Could this be a repeat of the UAL forward cargo door failure out of Hawaii?

IIRC, in that scenario, the "cat'sclaws" failed to grasp the locking pole securely; resulting in a "tear-away door." This is why 747's have visual viewing ports made of clear substance (plexiglass?) that (if they're not all scratched up like they always are) permits ground crew (if they know about this or can be made to care) to check and visually confirm the claws have actually grabbed something. Some MELs call out this procedure if anything else is inop.

As a crewmember, it always amazed me that anybody could see anything at all through those scratched up viewports! So you just wound up hoping that ground staff didn't get rough with the door handle, because a door light might not always be foolproof right? Used to make me wonder even after the A/D's S/B's etc....

Of course something more sinister could have popped that door....... Know what I mean?

Interesting. My hat's off to the crew on this one. :D :D :D

[fatcat69]

First pictures out, Hull breach behind the wing to body fairing with bags sucked out through the breach in the fuse and into the wing fairing.

Its aft of the crew bottles but right in the middle of a cluster of main oxy bottles.

Union says it was maintained in OZ.

Thankfully all ok.

[JohnMcGhie]

There's a good picture here.

Qantas plane door pops open on flight from London to Melbourne | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24076247-5001021,00.html)

This wasn't a "loss of cabin pressure" ladies and gents. This was "the loss of a large part of the side of the aircraft!"

Looking at this picture, you will forgive me feeling a little nervous about getting on a Qantas aircraft. Which, as some of you know, I have to, three times a month...

Whatever let go to cause this one, I suspect that it wouldn't have have done if Qantas were not flying elderly aircraft around with minimal maintenance, performed by the lowest-bidding contractor in parts of the world where ATSB supervision is even less effective that it is at home.

Cheers

[OliV2]

Pacplyer - fwd cargo door still in place, so seems unlikely.

[maggot]

any pics available on the web yet? links anyone?

[flyer_18-737]

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6164840,00.jpg
Looks like the Pilot hasn't got a clue either there..

[PAX67]

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/07/25/Qantasgash.jpg http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/07/25/qantas2_wideweb__470x354,2.jpg

[pacplyer]

Thanks Oliv2,

I missed that.

How do the lawyers say it?

"Withdrawn!"

Pretend I never said it......




Ah, thank you PAX67 and flyer18-737 for the pics

[vortsa]

Also located in that area more precisely are the cargo fire bottles. Quite large but not enough pressure I wouldn't think to blow a hole. Another thought is that for baggage to be spilling out then the cargo container bin must also have been ruptured.

[ampclamp]

Big pat on the back for the operating crew.:D:D
Sounds like a text book emerg descent to me.
Having been in one when a window turned into a jigsaw puzzle, even knowing exactly what's going on & with many years in the game its quite unpleasant.
Its important not bag anyone or anything at this time until the 'real' facts are known.

[rotorcraig]

From BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7524733.stm)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44861000/jpg/_44861901_cdc3a227-9e51-48f9-9419-26adfaa24bb7.jpg

RC

[NVpilot]

Great pics on BBC, professionally handled, kudos to the crew. :ok:

[Innaflap]

I've always wondered why the standard safety announcements don't include the fact that if oxygen masks drop, then the plane may well have to be rapidly brought down to 10,000ft where there is sufficient oxygen in the air to breath. Given that we seem to get this type of situation almost on a monthly basis it may help alleviate some terror!

[OliV2]

Agree on your earlier comment about the luggage Vorsta. That is why maintenance may not be an issue here just yet......let's all wait and see. I take it PAX67 was either on the flight or is relative/friend (perhaps father of quoted girl?) of a passenger. If so, hope you/they are ok and will have a slightly smoother ride home.

[Flightsimman]

Recent post from Airliners Dot Net !

Hey All,

Received this evening from sources serious corrosion issues have been detected on QF's VH-OJK while undergoing maintenance at AVALON. This is the first aircraft to under go cabin reconfiguration with the all NEW Premium Y/C cabin. Sources tell me the launch date has further slipped once to 5th of March operating the QF001 SYD-BKK-LHR route...
Let's keep our finger's crossed and hope -OJK recovers from her plastic surgery!

WTF is going on with Qantas and it's greedy mangement ??

:ugh:

[S/H 737]

just did a bit of research heard their were reported corrosion issues with OJK found at Avalon while fitting the premium economy seats. These are allegations as I have no evidence but i found it on another sight, I can not verify its accuracy .Could this be related??? The tear appears to be foward of the right wing between doors 2 and 3. The tear is just under the wing. I did not think there was a cargo door here,Could this be skin fatigue ???
ANy thoughts???

[Memetic]

Just called the BBC after the constant Radio 4 "Plunged" references got on my nerves.

They said, "well it did plunge".

I hope pointing out that that pointing out that the "plunge" was not as a direct result of the failure but was an immdiate trained for response by the crew to safeguard the passengers will get through.

I was promised it woudl be flagged.

As I am not one, I suggested they get an aviation expert to comment.

[harrogate]

Good quote by a passenger on 5Live.

"When we got off we saw a big hole that wasn't there when we left Hong Kong".

[ampclamp]

well memetic good call.:ok:

[Flightsimman]

What is going-on with Qantas and its dodgy engineers? If this was a corrosion event and corrosion was evident whilst undergoing Y+ fit-out then I cannot see any excuse why this was not pick-ed up?

WTF are you talking about Derek ???

Managment are the ones responsible for running this once wonderful company into the ground!

These are highly trained and qualified engineers (they only do as they are told and most of it is "shipped" away to other-shores where I doubt they are as qualified)!!

It's all to do with money my friend and the way QF are treating their staff at the moment isn't very nice.

I believe in "KARMA" and unfortunately this is what seems to be happening at the moment to the "Greedy" people in charge of Qantas.

I just hope that it doesn't cost a life!!!!!!

Pay the engineers the extra money they deserve.

Hang on to your staff and make less of a profit!

I just don't understand anymore............

:{

[MILSPEC]

also below door 2R galley area, corrosion ?

When was its last major check?

[Transition Layer]

vortsa,

I am pretty sure that last week OJK still had the MEL requiring a pre-flight check of the oxy.

CWT would be very close to empty on that sector, depending on exact fuel load.

[Hartington]

The BBC interviewed their "man in Manila" just before 0830 on the "Today" program. I can't remember his exact words but they were along the lines of "the plane is reported to have plunged but it's more likely this was a controlled descent".

[N2000]

From the picture in the Telegraph (UK, not Oz), it looks like the aircraft involved is JK.

Which aircraft was it that was damaged by a runaway loading vehicle in Melbourne recently?

[pacplyer]

Cats five said:
The luggage is in a container and is loaded at ground level, so the air in the container is at whatever the ground level pressure is.


Cats Five,

If you had a second answer, what would it be? :hmm:

[S/H 737]

I believe the aircraft was delivered around june 1991 , making it about 17 years old. Can anyone confirm this ?

[zumBeispiel]

FJM - Well Spotted! That belongs in the investigation report for sure:ok:!

Here's a link to the photo showing aircrew and hole - an interesting one for the ATSB to sort out ... http://images.theage.com.au/2008/07/25/167082/620qantas-620x0.jpg (http://images.theage.com.au/2008/07/25/167082/620qantas-620x0.jpg)

[Phil1980's]

I have the same feelings as you guys...wow that would be horrible to be in that plane...and that guy in the first few posts saying it's nothing...it is to passengers...and even me who would know they dive...I wouldnt know why it's decompressed, I could think that we have been ripped apart i.e this case...you dont go and tell a baby to stop crying you're being ridiculus it's just a man in a mask...
anyway a few different questions:

Q1. would the pilots know about the gusts of air if they are on the 2nd deck or would they have to wait for a phonecall from the cabin crew? or would there be a warning in the cabin?

Q2. What about the pax, in manilla with no vaccinations, I had to cancel my flight and hotel, i booked in the heat of the moment and realised that i needed vaccinations a week before and was going tommorrow from singapore to malaysia so i cancelled my flight because I could get bitten.
what if them pax had to go down the steps they would get bitten and get malaria or is that me not knowing what it's like.

[warrick1984]

The aircraft damages at tulla was VH-EBX witch is a 747-300. VH-OJK would of been delivered some time around 1991 like alot of other qantas 747-400s. Will be very interesting to find out what caused this.

[Bus429]

I wish people like Cats Five would read rather than contribute. Nowwithstanding the dross in this thread, there is a lot of professional and well-informed fact also available, probably from those that fly and maintain the aircraft. Read and learn.

[Phil1980's]

forget that post re-edited AIRFRAMES.ORG - Aircraft Database (http://www.airframes.org/)

[sevenstrokeroll]

OK:

could it have been an oxygen bottle carried as freight? if there was a bottle as part of the ship's system, isn't there an over pressure protection/blow out disc?

perhaps carried without permission as passenger baggage?

I am reminded of the United flight that lost a door...but this isn't close to the door.

and to all who hate journalists...how would the majority of us even know about this incident without them?

[Phil1980's]

OMG BBC RADIO 1 just said "the plane plunged 100's of feet!" so like 900 feet then? :ooh:

[Phil1980's]

OMG BBC RADIO 1 just said "the plane plunged 100's of feet!" so like 900 feet then? :ooh:

[darrylj]

was this the same aircraft which was on stand at T4 yesterday around 1100 - stand 423 ?.

[Jed Clampett]

darrylj, there would (should) have been 2 QF aircraft at T4 around that time. QF 32 to Singapore - Sydney and QF30 to Hong Kong - Melbourne. Both depart about 1215 local so it could have been either one you saw.

[Poof in Boots]

Unusual for the skin to fail rather than a door blow out a la Turkish DC10 etc. Do any of you remember BA's 747 100's and 200's that went to HKG (HAECO) for modifications and cabin upgrades (sunset 1 & 2) in the early 80's?

One 747-136 (G-AWNB I think) on the r/h/s forward of door 1R, the stringers and springers had detached from the airframe around the side area where the fuselage is almost flat. After that all the 747's had their "front ends" stripped down and modified. I think some of the work was subbed out to a company in Oz.

[Stierado]

BBC World just finished reporting on "the big hole in side of the plane" again with a lengthy interview involving someone on a phone.
This pax said that she had just been served tea in a pot :ok: when there was this curious "pop".:confused:....then stuff and debriss flew throu the cabin:eek:....etc etc.
After several minutes of speculation and the usual horror scenario stuff, the BBC interviewer returns with the most important question regarding this incident...:"What happened to the pot of tea ?":D

:mad::mad::mad:

wonder if the teapot needs councelling ???:}

Oh dear ....an "EXPERT" has just said it looks like a hole made by an AA gun..:D

[Guardsman]

OK chaps. We don't know what caused the problem. It appears that the crew handled it professionally. Suggest that all who are not ATPLs or cabin crew or engineers should keep quiet, and those who are should comment in a professional manner. Sorry to play the schoolmaster, but some of the postings have been dire.

[pappabagge]

Can't remember the exact type of material used for the forward wing-box fairing, but a little bell is ringing back there whispering it's a carbon-carbon reinforced, or carbon-reinforced fibreglass moulded section that is fitted aided by gravity in that the section "latches" onto retaining studs in the fuselage section, "hung" there and fitted, then the entire contact section bonded to the fuselage using epoxy and ultra-violet or infra-red heating to ensure the strongest possible bond betweene the two segments, prior, of course, to being spray-painted.

That particular area, together with, for example, radome hinge-joint areas and the lower sections of forward-facing cockpit window installations, have throughout the history of aviation been known blackspots for moisture intrusion... Wing box fairings aft are particularly susceptible to contact with ramp handling equipment (witness for example the number of A319 ULD-equipped incidents with Spanish-designed purpose-built "high"-loaders smashing serenely into the box), however the forward or leading-edge section of said wing-box fairing has an extrememly important function ensuring undisturbed airflow around the wing-root, over both the wing surfaces, along the fuselage and toward the tail section.

In this particular case, we do not yet know if it was an explosive decompression or if the incident was a result of a fatigue-induced "peel-away" of the bonded surfaces. In either case, the aircraft seems to have come off relatively unscathed; a blow-out would concievably have propelled detritis into Eng 3 and possibly Eng 4, the result of which would not make for bedtime reading.

It'll be interesting to follow this case through: the literature eagerly surrenders several seemingly similar cases, the most spectacular of which was the unintentional invetion of the B737 open-top Hawaii tourer.

God Speed.

[Arsy Duck]

A simple search on Google reveals a report that the a/c, VH-OJK, was found to have corrosion problems in February 2008. As the first of 2 744's for QF delivered in 1991, this report makes sense!

[gazbert]

From Norway's Aftenposten (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/article2559146.ece)

http://media.aftenposten.no/archive/00816/PHILIPPINES-PLANE___816172a.jpg

[Buster Hyman]

Hi all. Went offline unexpectedly sorry. To everyone who PM'd me, I apologise. As it turns out, PAX67 has posted an almost identical photo to the one I had (external) so unless you really want it, I wont tie up yer phone with a photo download.

Now, where are the conspiracy theorists? Aircraft took the Pope home...hmmmm...c'mon guys, this should've been on page 1!!!:rolleyes:

[worrab]

What an immensely strong aeroplane. Uncontrolled depressurisation is no joke. The forces on those exposed bits of airframe during the subsequent controlled, but fast, descent would be considerable and it's a tribute to the design that there wasn't massive disruption around the wing-root. I think we have an incredibly near-miss here. Hats off to the crew and also to the designers.

[Keygrip]

www.msn.com (http://www.msn.com) has a link to a very short story on it.

Headline says aircraft flying Australia to London - story says London to Australia. Certainly nothing like checking the fects before publication, eh?

Had to laugh at the last line of the story.

The passengers will be given hotel accommodation while the aircraft is being repaired, said Alfonso Cusi, the airport’s general manager.
How many nights will that be then?

[Taildragger67]

Vortsa,

Same thought crossed my untrained mind but was quickly followed by "but if something between the container and skin blew a hold in the skin, then the resulting decompression could then have ruptured the container" - rather than someting in the container being the root-cause.

Bit of speed-tape - bewdifuuul...

Well done to all involved in getting -OJK safely on the deck. :ok:

[Wader2]

The quality of Gazbert's picture looks as if another round of well-informed speculation is due.

If I put my theory forward, and it is right, then I can claim "I was right, I told you so."

But I won't :)

[MechanicalMan]

The Wing to Body fairing is a Honeycomb Fibreglass fairing attached to the Fuselage by screws, not bonded to the skin. If it failed it would not damage the Aircraft skin.

The Passenger Oxygen bottles are in that area of the Freight bay but i think the last one is in the area just in front of the hole, if you look closely at the pic you can see the rear edge of the velcro'd curtain that covers them. Also as all Passenger Oxygen bottles are connected to each other, if one bottle blew then I think all Passenger Oxygen pressure would be lost, but not entirely sure! The fact that all Passengers had oxygen I think rules that out.

- 747 Engineer

[patrickal]

Local TV in Boston is now reporting that the plane "plunged 2000 feet". I'll bet that the air at 28,000 feet is a lot easier to breathe than that thin stuff at 30,000. CBS News reporter out of London says "They are not sure if was an explosion, but it certainly was a "catostrophic" event. The lack of quality control, research and proof reading in professionial journalisim is stunning. I am to the point where I believe nothing they say or print.

[worrab]

But the BBC do it well:

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Hole forces Qantas plane to land (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7524733.stm)

[vortsa]

GAZBERT thank you for your close up pic it has given me more detail and am able to offer another theory on what might have happened and possibly the cause.

That fairing is notorious for being damaged by catering trucks, as it is adjacent to the galley door 2 right. Supposing the fairing was holed on its last transit and went undetected or a pre-existing hole re-opened. If the hole eroded in the air flow and opened up to a size that eventually blew the fairing off ( crew report of a door problem prior to event) then as the remnants of the fairing support structure twisted and turned in the airflow, a weakening of the pressurized skin eventually gave way causing the decompression.

I think an oxygen bottle may have fallen away but not because of its own failure, and the material coming out of the hole might only be the side wall lining and insulation blankets( heavy canvas covers)

Just another theory.

[tjc]

Any cred to potential burn marks adjacent the oxy/fire bottle access pnl?

Looks like the sparkies have a bit of work to do too.

[flyingfrog]

My favourtie report so far has to be from The TimesAir passengers' mid-flight terror as hole is blown in Qantas 747 fuselage - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4395076.ece) :eek:

Quote "Mrs Manchester claimed that 20 minutes after the plane first took off from Heathrow, she heard a loud bang near the faulty door. "You have to wonder if that explosion could have caused the second one," she said."

[Xeque]

In the BBC interview, the young lady passenger states that the Captain spoke to the passengers immediately after landing - I assume pre-disembarking. He stated that 'there was a hole in the fuselage' (or words to that effect).
My question is - prior to landing would someone have been able to gain access to the forward baggage hold to ascertain the damage?

[Duck Rogers]

Folks.

We have neither the time nor inclination to police this thread which is making repeated attempts to plunge (see what I did there?) to a level akin to that of the worst journalism. The easiest course for us is to issue thread bans to prevent people from dragging it off topic. Harsh but effective.

By all means have a caption competition but please have it in JB where it belongs. Not here where it will be picked up by the media, published and then slated by those of you who fed the journalists in the first place.

Your co-operation is assured. ;)

Thanks

Duck

[Rob White]

I think you have a pic is there any chance you could send it to me on email?

[geordiejet]

IS this not similar to an incident which occurred to a United 747 in the 80's? My mind is funny on it, but I recall a blowout or something of the main cargo door.

Yeah - that was to do with faulty locks on a door. That was my immediate thought when I heard this. But looking at the damage, I noticed the same cargo door is several feet away.

So I even checked close ups of the 744 to see if there was a door here and there wasn't. It's a strange case.

From what people on here and other sites are saying I do think something either exploded (not the O2 bottles) - perhaps cargo, or a loose container hit the skin from the inside (with great force), causing the hole, and loss of the section.

[Thalass]

If an oxy bottle fell away, then they're lucky they got down to 10,000ft as quickly as they did. iirc taking one bottle out would vent the entire system to the atmosphere.


Interesting theory, Vortsa, you're probably right there - though I can't remember exactly how much structure there is between that wing-to-body panel and the skin under it. It's certainly plausable.

[Buster Hyman]

Xeque. Not likely from anyone inside (its nothing like what Hollywood portrays down there!). It could have been reported to him by the tower on landing though.

[Surditas]

On the subject of journalists...

Channel Nine here in Australia (yes, yes, I know that "Channel Nine" and "Professional Journalism" are not phrases that are often seen together) said:

"After the explosion the plane did a slow descent from cruising altitude and then levelled at 25,000ft where the cabin pressure equalised."

That would have been interesting. Time of useful consciousness of around 5 minutes and death in about 30 minutes.

I suppose it would have saved Q some hotel bills. :rolleyes:

I understand that journalists might not know how to fly a plane, but the effects of hypoxia have been known for more than a century and it's not too hard to check on what the SOP is for any pressurised aircraft if there's a sudden loss of cabin pressure.

[Xeque]

Thanks Buster - I thought that might be the case.

[TOWTEAMBASE]

could this panel have been damaged by a hi-lo, or even a catering truck. from my experience, hi-lo's are a safe distance away from the part missing, unless its a 742 or 74SP. it could have had a knock at some point, and weakened over time. the catering trucks use the R2 door, never know, delayed flight, no banksman....it happens

[idydir]

The fuselage frames are missing.

Above the red bag is a stub of a fuselage frame.

May not be an explosion in the container, the baggage would have been ripped to shreds.

Doesn't appear to be any pieces of cargo container stuck in the hole either.

The Fuse frame in the centre of the hole is missing way up towards the cabin floor and can't see the bottom stub?

Could it have been damaged when loading the cans?

It would not be found until the next cargo compartment inspection.

[Thalass]

Buster: Actually you can get to the forward cargo via a hatch in the first class zone and the avionics bay. But there's carpet covering the hatch, and there would've been cans in the way in the forward cargo.


So yeah, they wouldn't have gone down there in flight.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Very interesting to see the luggage "escape" the baggage bin.

As to the theory of the AKE/C "exploding" due to the rapid pressure change, very unlikely. Bins aren't designed as pressure vessels. If you've ever seen one, they have a "curtain" on the front, this would be the failure point, and I can't really see it failing in an explosive manner.

I'm not one to speculate, but I wonder if the origin of the problem began in that bin ? Shouldn't be too difficult to tell as it's there to be examined.

Also looking at the close-up picture, has the cargo floor collapsed ?? Seems like the bags are very low in the hole, or is that a visual effect of them being outside of the hold and in the fairing ?

[NSEU]

The loss of the wing-to-body fiberglass fairing is significant, but not compared to the hole in the aluminium skin underneath. Damage by catering trucks is not going to precipitate the type of damage shown here.

A rapid decompression through the hole in the aluminium skin probably blew out the wing to body fairing.

The composite material panels shown here are not designed to retain cabin pressure (it's not a 787).

Please put to rest theories about gas cylinders in passengers bags.... Cylinders big enough to cause this sort of damage would easily be seen by x-ray screening.

I'm putting my money on corrosion (it's the area below the galley) and pressurisation forces. Corrosion inspection oversight?

Note that a lot of panels in the cabin would have popped open as they were designed to do to prevent floors/ceilings collapsing from decompression forces.

Rgds.
NSEU

[Buster Hyman]

Thalass. Yes indeedy. Nothing funnier than watching the FCL punters do their Lemur impressions when an engineer emerges from there!

TOWTEAMBASE. That fairing is just a cover to assist airflow off the fuselage to the wing (learned that in my Corn Flakes Engineering Degree). An impact there, whilst not desirable, would have to be very deep to penetrate the pressurised skin.

Plenty of speculative points but one thing is certain. Boeing build some tough aircraft!:ok:

[TOWTEAMBASE]

the baggage can come loose during flight, if the holds are not full, then there would be plenty of room for the decompression to suck out the baggage from the curtain. they are only held closed by velcro straps, and thats if they are actualy working. And having dealings with QF, they check,check and check again as far as ground handling goes, so very unlikely that any DGR made its way onboard

[Ex Cargo Clown]

The loss of the wing-to-body fiberglass fairing is significant, but not compared to the hole in the aluminium skin underneath. Damage by catering trucks is not going to precipitate the type of damage shown here.

A rapid decompression through the hole in the aluminium skin probably blew out the wing to body fairing.

The composite material panels shown here are not designed to retain cabin pressure (it's not a 787).

Please put to rest theories about gas cylinders in passengers bags.... Cylinders big enough to cause this sort of damage would easily be seen by x-ray screening.

I'm putting my money on corrosion (it's the area below the galley) and pressurisation forces. Corrosion inspection oversight?

Note that a lot of panels in the cabin would have popped open as they were designed to do to prevent floors/ceilings collapsing from decompression forces.

Rgds.
NSEU

Agree with most of that, but would a skin failure cause the baggage bins to fail as well ?

I'm not sure about that, I'm of the opinion that something has gone internally.

[wrobinsyd]

The frame being taken out shows that some force was applied to it, corrosion no chance underpants, lets talk force to do this type damage and its not a decompression.

OXY or a bomb thats for sure. iside the AKE can i would say

The B744 is the brick s*ithouse of the sky....

[sitigeltfel]

CNN have amateur video taken by a pax with the seat back screen showing the a/c at 10,000ft. The masks are down and the pax seem calm and the cabin crew doing a trolley service. There is the inevitable round of applause after touchdown.

[ICEHOUSES]

The stuff hanging out of the aircraft is not pax baggage from bins and looks more like cargo off a pallet, you can see the rope style tie downs off the pallet in the picture showed, it could be mail, cargo or pax bags on a metal pallet possibly, if there were ULD's in there I think you would see them showing possibly?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

The stuff hanging out of the aircraft is not pax baggage from bins and looks more like cargo off a pallet, you can see the rope style tie downs off the pallet in the picture showed, it could be mail, cargo or pax bags on a metal pallet possibly, if there were ULD's in there I think you would see them showing possibly?

I though that originally, but the straps you can see on the black bag are just on that bag, there are no pallet straps so I think you can discount that theory. Plus the straps on pallets are stress tested to enormous loads, there is no way they would allow the baggage to move like that, and it would be shrink-wrapped if it were pax bags on a PMC.

There is the possibility that the bags are from an AKC that didn't have a bin in front of it, and the curtain wasn't shut or failed. I'd love to see the load sheet for this aircraft :D

I can't see this investigation being too difficult, plenty of evidence, and thankfully an intact (mostly) aircraft.

[S/H 737]

How long would this aircraft be held out of service???
How long would it take to repair this???
What costs would be incurred ???

[infrequentflyer789]

The frame being taken out shows that some force was applied to it, corrosion no chance underpants, lets talk force to do this type damage and its not a decompression.


Yes, lets talk about force to do this kind of damage. Try this for size from UAL 811:

The Real Unfriendly Skies, Saga of Corruption, Rodney Stich, picture (http://www.montereypeninsulaairport.com/Skiescargodoor0pict.html)

Plenty of frame taken out there, but no "other" forces - just a failed door, and decompression.

[jhurditch]

VH-OJK

Serial number 25067 LN:857
Type 747-438
First flight date 21/05/1991

[jewitts]

My money would be on the fibre-glass honeycomb fairing failing first. As has been described by Mechanical Man (747 engineer), the fairing is screwed on. In the close-up photo, you can see the fairing at the front has failed (cracked or been pulled away from the screws) along the screw line. At the rear edge the screw holes are still there. However there is a bracket/strap still attached to the hull - lower centre. Is this used to attach the fairing in any way? (Perhaps mechanical man might confirm?) Is there a corresponding bracket on the upper half (where no metal exists now)? There is a scenario that the fairing came off due to wind pressure, and due to damage or failure of the leading edge screws. Once on the move, with the bottom bracket/strap already failed, the only retainer left would be this upper bracket ??? (if it exists) that, if it is like the lower one, seemingly is attached direct to the fuselage. (Maybe the fairing flailed around for some seconds) Coupled to a degree of corrosion at the same point, the force could be enough to initiate/propogate a crack, cause pressure failure and the rupture of the alu as seen. :confused:

[Orestes]

Anyone have any info on just how much of the cabin floor collapsed? As I recall, the infamous Turkish DC10/cargo door crash occurred due to the explosive decompression collapsing part of the aft floor, through which controls to the tail section were routed. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong!) that due to the high placement of the 747 cockpit, the flight controls are routed along the upper fuselage and not the floor in the area of this plane's damage.

[wrobinsyd]

true a 12 ft x 8 ft flap of a fwd cargo door applies no force at all, get real???


look at the skin its all blown out frame broken and torn the the decompression would not do this, have you never seen myth busters?

diff press wont do this

[Beanbag]

I'm with you IF789. There's no sign of charring on the exposed luggage which says to me there probably wasn't an initiating explosion. More likely a bit of the skin failed first and the decompression did the rest of the damage.
(NB statement made with no professional expertise, just eyes and a brain)

[VAFFPAX]

PHOAAARRR! That photo from Afterposten is good. You can see how the honeycomb ripped away from its attachments on the body and the wing, especially above the rivet line (on the wing). The fairing detached almost cleanly below that same rivet line. That does leave some puzzling questions.

My kudos to the f/crew for getting QF30 down safely, and to the passengers for keeping calm in what clearly was a serious situation.

S.

[WindSheer]

For f:mad: sake boeing..sort it out!
This has happened too many times over the years! :=

If this was a 'eastern' a/c the entire fleet would be grounded. I expect the FAA wil find a way to stop the Boeing/US economy taking a hit on this one!

AAAARRRHHH!!

[SVR]

I'm curious about the discoloration and apparent distortion of the inner skin around the forward edge of the (departed) fairing. Any suggestions?

[Volume]

The longitudinal laopjoint (the one that cause the Aloha incident on a 737) is running right acros the center of the hole. Worth thinking about when looking for the initial failure...

However, congratulations to the crew for a well done emergency procedure.

[Bus429]

Jewitts,
Surely the failure of the wing/body fairing could not precipitate that apparent damage? I'm only a humble B2 engineer so willing to be corrected.

[VAFFPAX]

The discolouration should be normal.

S.

[AirbusPhp]

Could have been an (illegally carried) camping gas cartridge or some sort, that went up in the bag (from underpressure or heat). Looks a bit like an explosion, though not strong enough to have come from a real bomb. Pictures from Lockerbie come back...:(

[dakstak]

More passenger accounts at the BBC

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Eyewitness: Qantas flight drama (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7525233.stm)

[idydir]

Isn't there a Fire bottle behind the sidewall here?

If so - can't see it or it's mounts?

also - can see a vertical support frame for the sidewall curtain on the fwd stub fuselage frame intact! (directional explosion???? maybe)

Can see screw heads still on fuselage skin where leading edge of fairing attaches, (brown strip on fuse)

Discolouration is corrosion preventative solution.

[ionagh]

There is a scenario that the fairing came off due to wind pressure, and due to damage or failure of the leading edge screws. Once on the move, with the bottom bracket/strap already failed, the only retainer left would be this upper bracket ??? (if it exists) that, if it is like the lower one, seemingly is attached direct to the fuselage. (Maybe the fairing flailed around for some seconds)

Certainly looks like the lower section failed first and the upper part ripped off afterwards judging by the damage. Odd that the fixing points of the lower section seem (relatively) intact. Just need a close up picture.

[Bucha]

From the images appears as though the initial failure was the pressure hull and the leading edge root fairing secondary damage.

Big question is - what caused the hull breach??

[hexboy]

The sensation seeking press are normally well supplied with phrases to use supplied by scared/terrified passengers as they leave the plane.
A lot of this fear and hysterical descriptions could be avoided if the Captain, once landed, could explain that a decompression took place resulting in a perfectly normal and controlled rapid descent being carried out by the flight crew. In addition,he could explain that cabin crew, ATS, and emergency services all performed as trained to ensure that this incident had a happy ending.
A lot of passengers are scared of flying, mainly through ignorance, and it would maybe also be a good idea that during the CC safety briefing at the start of each flight, passengers are informed that once the oxygen masks drop, there will be a sudden, fast, pilot controlled descent to an altitude where there is more breathable air.
Having been a somewhat nervous passenger myself I can confirm that now that I have a son who flies for an airline, those fears have gone purely due to many conversations with him on flying and the procedures taught and adhered to by all major airlines.

[er340790]

Hmmmm.......

First impression was similarity of damage to TWA 840 back in '86. Caused by a B......

Will try and find image.

TWA Flight 840 (1986) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_840_%281986%29)

[Pist n Broke]

NSEU i'm with your theory. Look at the fwd frame that is still intact. this frame runs the whole diameter of the aircraft and has the door hinges attached. Any explosive damage would be seen on the frame.

I would concur that a small area of corrosion 'let Go' coupled with rapid decompression and blew the rest of the skin and fairing out. The internal cargo wall bracing strut is still there which would have been damaged if any internal explosion happened.

The galley area around the door sill is renowned for spillages of coffee etc, which causes huge corrosion problems.

Seems someone may have missed a deep corrosion area on the last check.

Regards

Pist n Broke

[mover625]

Qantas will spend as much time and money as it takes to get the A/C back in service.
They did this after the BKK incident in order to maintain their record as the only carrier without a hull loss in their history.

[flown-it]

CNN female anchor..breathless with excitement.......jet plunged 20 thousand feet in 30 seconds. Doesn't anyone in journoland do a little mental mathmatics before spewing garbage?:ugh:

[Xeque]

Hexboy

I have to agree. After that part of the passenger safety briefing that says 'in the event of loss of cabin pressure .....' and the bits about looking after yourself before helping others a single sentence stating that 'the aircraft will commence a rapid decent to a level where you may discard the oxygen mask and breathe normally' would make a big difference.

[Big M]

I can't see this investigation being too difficult, plenty of evidence, and thankfully an intact (mostly) aircraft.


I remember this being said when the BA Tripler went in at Heathrow.
Still no definite answer there!

[taiar]

WINDSHEER, you wrote...

For f sake boeing..sort it out!
This has happened too many times over the years!

If this was a 'eastern' a/c the entire fleet would be grounded. I expect the FAA wil find a way to stop the Boeing/US economy taking a hit on this one!

AAAARRRHHH!!


WINDSHEER.....

You can't be serious.... (no this is not a line from airplane or aeroplane or flying high) where ever you are....

Not taking any credit away from Eastern built aircraft. We all know they are built like tanks.... but if you are to compare hours of service that Boeing product has put in and specifically the 747 vs. eastern built aircraft, I think we all know who is ahead... and like everything else in the world, regarless if its an engine or airframe metal...its a matter of statistics... and eventually after X amount of hours in service something has to give....

So don’t jump conclusions and start pointing fingers at Boeing or anyone else, lets all wait and let the professional investigators do what they do.. they have or will have the facts and data required and in due time will tell us what happened.

But for the mean time, with all due respect your remark is out of place.

[Desk Jockey]

Looks like the cargo blocked much of the hole. The gap left is not much bigger than an open outflow valve. Will be interesting to see what the cabin ROD was. Looks like it will be stuck there for weeks for repair, and thats after the authorities have finished with it.

[DownUnderFlyer]

mover625, it was not QF maintaining the safety record after the BKK incident but the insurance who insisted on a repair.

[Capt.KAOS]

This incident might explain the China Airline 611 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_611) crash?

[jewitts]

Bus429
Surely the failure of the wing/body fairing could not precipitate that apparent damage? I'm only a humble B2 engineer so willing to be corrected.

Just a theory, but epoxy composite can be as strong/stronger than metal (e.g. 787) and a partially detached fairing could catch a lot of air at cruising speed.
However I think Volume has made an astute observation...
The longitudinal laopjoint (the one that cause the Aloha incident on a 737) is running right acros the center of the hole. Worth thinking about when looking for the initial failure...
If you were fold the top piece of metal that is bent upwards back to its original position it would meet at the lapjoint. Also if you photoshop/enlarge the image, there is a very jagged piece of the multi-rivetted lapjoint sticking directly outwards.
So perhaps the initial failure was here, the pressure escaped downwards initially, cleanly blowing-out the screws/rivets of the fairing below this line. Then the wind pressure ripped off the remaining part of the fairing upwards. Hence no damage to the leading edge and no ingestion of any debris.

Anticipate some swift inspections...

[idydir]

Who insures Qantas??????

Self insured??????

Oh I see........

[SincoTC]

From flyingfrogs post #80

Quote "Mrs Manchester claimed that 20 minutes after the plane first took off from Heathrow, she heard a loud bang near the faulty door. "You have to wonder if that explosion could have caused the second one," she said."

Is it possible that what she heard was an improperly secured container or pallet breaking free during climb-out manouevres, and that this had impacted the fuselage wall and caused damage that later led to a skin failure? The pressure loss through this would have pressurised the wing root fairing and blown it off.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Why couldn't it have been something as straight-forward as an improperly secured baggage container or cargo-pallet that simply worked loose in-flight, puncturing the pressure-hull...?


Again, it's a theory I thought of, a bin loaded in the Left Position with no unit on the Right. Bin jumps the centrelocks and punctures a hole.

Only problem I'd have with that is where the whole is compared to the level of the freight floor, the fuselage appears to have failed at about half way up an AK, the bin would have hit the fuselage side with it's "flat side".

Also unit movements generally happen during takeoff or turbulence. It would seem unlikely to happen in S&L cruise.

This theory will be easy to prove/disprove when/if we find out the load plan of the aircraft, it will also help work out where those bags came from.

[Xeque]

Flown-it
CNN/Fox anchor bimbo - mathematics??? You jest - surely :)

[Flintstone]

Qantas will spend as much time and money as it takes to get the A/C back in service.
They did this after the BKK incident in order to maintain their record as the only carrier without a hull loss in their history.

An urban myth albeit one that QANTAS has done nothing to correct. In their early days QANTAS lost aircraft but then I suppose poling around Queensland and the NT pioneering mail runs and the like is bound to take a toll.

Back on topic (unusual here, I know) but can any licenced or qualified engineers or pilots confirm the number of hours on this airframe, number of cycles and any relevant AD's? Anoraks, hedge chimps, wannabees and MS desk flyers need not respond.

[MostlyModerate]

on the BBC Today programme, Evan Davies was interviewing one of the passengers. I quote .. " you must have wondered if you were ever going to get down ? "

Prat.

[whartonp]

I think that you might find that this incident is air-con related! A lot of kit down in that part of the A/C.

[vortsa]

If indeed there was freight loaded into the fwd cargo compartment then there would probably be freight pallets to spread the load on the cargo pallet. So any rapid decompression would cause a possible disintegration of wooden pallets. If the wooden fibers inside the cabin are analysed and found to be from the cargo then an explosion would have to then be again considered. A decompression would have taken the disintegrated pallets out the hole.

[NotPilotAtALL]

Hi,

From the first message to now ..it's plenty messages for bash journalists reports.
I will be the devil advocate and tell all this bashing is sometime completely unfair.
As nor the pilots or the airline will answer the journalist about a air incident (the pilots never accept or are forbidden to give answers to the news media for some reasons) they have only to rely to the comments of withnesses.
So .. how bash journalists when those (who try certainly to made good reports) have not acces to professional advices.
This is the withnesses who give the "sensationalists comments" ... not the journalists.
The journalists just reports the interviews of withnesses .... who are no professional of aviation.
Let the pilots explain events to the journalists ... and you will have good reports in the press :)

Cheers.

[lomapaseo]

Boy, I came into this thread late and it already is multiple pages deep.

As usual there is the 10-90 rule with only about 10% worth of really good stuff making it worthwhile to read these threads.

Some general comments.

The pressure vessel is the green you see in the excellent photo a page back. Everything else is secondary to the release of pressure.

Petaling outward is also the secondary stuff, so look for the initiation away from that. Look for multiple sites and scarring if it came from inside the vessel itself. Else look for linear lines suggesting prior cracking.

I'll just look for the 10% good stuff in the following posts in this thread :)

[Yamagata ken]

News.com.au has the Headline "
Qantas flight 'plunges as door pops"



The door didn't "pop" and the aircraft took a controlled descent. The contempt for journalists is due to their willfull ignorance and total lack of professional standards.

[Lord Bracken]

Some decent, non-sensationalist reporting from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/asia/26qantas.html

[Decision_Height]

Congrats to the crew :D.. and we all know Boeing builds em Tonka tough.:ok:

jewitt> I just don't see it.. interestingly the fairing edges are intact and attached to the airframe along its upper edges. The lower portion is stripped clean and it appears no fasteners.

The key thing that doesn't work for me in your theory if the fairing failed and then the support caused the pressure hull breach that area would be peeled away. It is but more from the contents trying to escape than being pulled up/away. Also given the mount is symetrical the support would be at the edge of the red object.

My money it's a pressure vessel failure of unknown cause (yet) and the fairing blew out due to the build up of pressure within.

[joojoo]

A couple of hundred VERY lucky passengers I'd say. What odds would you give on a plane surviving a major explosive decompression such as this? Less than 50%, probably more like 10%. No loss of hydraulic or elecrical systems, no breach (apparently) of centre fuel tank with 5 (I count) longitudinal frames completely severed.

Whatever the cause (corrosion, bad repair/maintenance, or a loose rhino) I wouldn't have liked to have been on the plane. The passengers didn't have the benefit of seeing the external damage and it's easy to say in the cold light of day that SOP is controlled descent to 10000ft, but I'm not sure I'd be pinning my hopes on it as the plane fell away from under me. I think I'd have been very much in the 'plunge' school of thinking!

[ionagh]

My money its a pressure vessel failure of unknow cause (yet) and the fairing blew out due to the build up of pressure within.

Agreed. However, I am intrigued that all the fasteners have gone on the lower fairing. The upper section could well be damage from the pressure hull failure, but the lower part??

[dj_lethal]

http://media.aftenposten.no/archive/00816/PHILIPPINES-PLANE___816172a.jpg



Section 42 extends from station 520 to station 1000. It contains an
upper deck, main deck, and lower lobe. The lower lobe contains the
forward cargo compartment. The forward end of the wing-to-body fairing
is attached to the lower lobe of section 42. Structural openings
contained in section 42 are two observation windows, one on the left and
one on the right, cargo compartment door, and a center electronic bay
access door.

many factors/questions why the quantas 747-400 have suffered a decompression.
bomb on board is impossible because of the formation occured during decompression

this info are based on what i've read in AMM and FCOM.

1.did the fairing panel are properly installed?
2.did the seal clearance dimension followed properly?
3.during the application of corrosion preventive compound,
did they follow the right amount?/missed some parts/or other subtstance
are mistakenly applied in the fairings?
4.is there any corrosion already in the nutplate/support structure/washers/etc.
causing it to fail?
5.or it is undersized/oversize causing to have a gap/cracks?
6.even the fairings/bolts have been covered by paint causing to a false reading during
installation
7.the skin of the aircraft, is there any traces of structural damage/cracks/dent
causing to have a gap resulting to some structural corrosion(moist/water/chemicals/etc)
8.In galley, Is there any leakage of water from the water/wasteline?
or drainage leakage causing the structures to have a corrosion?
9.during C-D check is there any modification/alteration?,
did they applied the proper corrosion preventive compound/teflon tape/sealant/skyflakes in the designated part specially in wet areas?
10.can be the depressurization blowout panel became inoperative/clogged
resulting to this kind of decompression?
11.Did the pilots/maintenance on ground set the Pressurization in manual mode
and pressurized the aircraft and exceeds to 11,000FT? causing it to popped out?

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/07/25/qantas2_wideweb__470x354,2.jpg



but still, many factors/reason why the 747 suddenly decompressed.
hope all mechanics/engineers/pilots will have a definite answer later on.

[slats11]

Congrats to the crew for getting it down OK. It could have been much worse.

I can't help but wonder looking at the pictures: world's spotlight about to fall on China, recent plot apparently uncovered in China, QF an attractive target in the eyes of some, over deep water - debris could have been very difficult to recover . Hopefully not, but you have to wonder.

Fortunately, this should be able to be very quickly excluded

[sevenstrokeroll]

perhaps a 747 pilot will confirm that the control cables run along the top and not the bottom of the aircraft.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I don't suppose anybody knows if there was any damage to the pressure vessel aft of the where the close-up photo shows ?

It is hidden by the fairing that stayed attached to the airframe.

[Buster Hyman]

The control cables run along the top of the fuselage.

[Porrohman]

Flintstone asked;
"can any licenced or qualified engineers or pilots confirm the number of hours on this airframe, number of cycles and any relevant AD's? Anoraks, hedge chimps, wannabees and MS desk flyers need not respond."


In the absence, so far, of definitive figures, it might be possible to get a (very) rough idea by looking at the cycles and hours the Qantas 747 that over-ran at BKK had done at the time of its incident; ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-438 VH-OJH Bangkok International Airport (BKK) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19990922-0) Extrapolating data from that would give about 75,000 - 80,000hrs and 11,000 to 12,000 cycles for the a/c involved in the Manila incident.

[PAXboy]

slats11Congrats to the crew .. and we all know Boeing builds em Tonka tough.
Congratulations indeed and the media seem to be catching up with that and giving the correct credit.

Boeing certainly did build them tough 30 years ago. But - do they build them as tough now...?

[787FOCAL]

yes. 747 skins, etc are still the same

[Capt.KAOS]

Youtube: 747 Emergency Landing - Qantas jet (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=D6-_1wnHz1g)

[Flybob]

Most cables run above the main cabin ceiling apart from the Aileron cables which run down the fuselage adjacent to the L1 / R1 area and the under the main deck floor each side, through the pressure bulkhead to the spoiler mixer and aileron controls. Basically above where this damage appears.
More of a worry is the proximity of the Passenger oxygen. This can either be in the fwd cargo right side wall (very close) or the Fwd cargo overhead cavity area. One other point, very close to this area are the 2 cargo fire extinguisher bottles. These would have been very close to this area and I would suggest that they might have contributed in some way.
Just a though!

[fleigle]

It is interesting to note that the composite fairing appears to have detached fairly intact, apart from the shattering in the upper part close to where (I assume) the orig. breach of the pressure hull is.
It is still amazing to see how thin the aluminium structure is.

[maddes]

ah priaprism - the facts are plane plunged from fl 30/33 to pretty low in xx minutes. If you had been a passenger no doubt you would have ordered another g and t and gone back to reading your favourite encyclopaedia. Pictures aside, and hack exaggeration understood, let's just say a plane full of pax made an emergency in Manila with a hole of whatever size in whatever side, upon landing the crew were lauded. No worries mate, keep sucking in those aussie cheeks - hope the Qantas shares don't dip too radically .. like the 744...

[Poof in Boots]

As for QANTAS being so safe and not having written off any aircraft, what about the 744 at BKK that overran?

It was not an economical repair and was technically a write off. Is that aircraft still in QANTAS colours?

Qantas Airline Crash in Bangkok, Thailand (http://www.avweb.com/news/news/184281-1.html)

[c46r]

NRK radio Norway quotes A Norwegian pax "The stewardesses sat on the floor with their oxygen masks on crying" really calmed the pax down no end !!!:ugh:

[wings folded]

Now the Daily Telegraph has got hold of footage filmed inside the aircraft, we can learn that:

"In footage shot inside the cabin on a passenger's mobile phone, a child can be heard crying as screens on the front of seats showed the altitude drop from 9,650 feet to 9,500 feet in a matter of seconds. "

I would hate to be involved in such a savage rate of descent. Unless I wanted to land sooner or later.

[luvly jubbly]

Just seen a pax video on BBC News 24.
Journos even mentioned that the emergency descent is standard procedure in these circumstances.

Pax seemed very calm, with light applause on landing.....

Video here:
BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Hole forces Qantas plane to land (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7524733.stm)

Well done crew.

LJ

[point8six]

Well done to the Flight Crew. I wonder if they suspected structural damage and limited the forward speed in the rapid descent? Gear down would always be an option in this case.
My guess from the photos, is that the damage appears less 'explosive' and more 'corrosive'.
An event with a successful outcome, that is often practised in the simulator, but rarely carried out 'in anger'.
Those who scorn the cabin crew for the tears obviously do not understand the ear pain and general disorientation, such an event causes.

[pappabagge]

- now having had the opportunity of perusing the okay-quality close-up I'm seeing what to me is an obvious "from the inside-out" blow, seemingly outwards from the upper portion where the torn-away piece of paneling has flipped upwards, but has been arrested from further upward movement by... what? The stronger resistance of the maindeck flooring/cargo deck ceiling? So following the path of least resistance, the force travels downwards, finds a weakness and exploits this, blowing both downwards and outwards. Notice the inverted "V" of the contact points of the fairing where the screws seen to still be intact, and the paneling has been pulled away what looks like directly outwards 90 degrees, loosing some of its force as it traverses rearwards (ergo more residual honeycombed paneling of the fairing evident in the forward-looking section). Note the complete extremities of the fairing from around halfway down and thereafter are missing, screws an' all.

Then as the outwardly-directed force moves ever further away from the origin of the Event, it slows further, travels downwards, now aided by the decompression effect itself where we see less ripping but more rupturing as a consequence of the transfer of energies over the surfaces and via changing resistance strata.

At least two stringers seem to have been breached and some four longitudinal spars. From an investigatory standpoint I'd give tonight's take-away pizza to see the load plan, load sheet and the cargo manifest for this flight. What would appear to be the "plug" here may be the (arguably adequately) netted and strapped-down flat bed pallet load, and what are the red sacks? Diplomatic Mail? Sure could be.. and way back in the days when this contributor got called out of bed in the middle of the night to examine load irregularities worthy of formal report, no checks whatsoever were made on the contents of DipMail - or Company Mail for that matter - pure conjecture admittedly, but then no stone such be left unturned.. However I'd have more expected to have found either DipMail or CoMail bulk-loaded in Cpt 5.

And I haven't seen that much bent metal since "Her Indoors" came home with my Toyota Previa in a similar condition a few weeks ago.

Funny no-one mentioned Baked Beans yet...

[nicolai]

Those who scorn the cabin crew for the tears obviously do not understand the ear pain and general disorientation, such an event causes.
Indeed, or merely general eye irritation from wind blowing around the cabin or dust in eyes or whatever. The idea that tears automatically mean fear and upset just isn't true. For me, it just means it's summer :(

[Slats One]

Am I the first to observe that there are no indications of explosive combustion in the photos we have seen so far. Given that most modern luggage is synthetic- nylon/polyester/vynl, plastic , one is forced to note that NONE of the luggage on shown shows any sign of heat, melting, burning, or molecular/ physical change.

The visisble red bag would perhaps show such if it is synthetic and had been subject to combustive force.

Therefore, unless they find chemical residue from a small, low powered combustive event, it is unlikely that this dmage was explosives related. My humble view is that we are likely to eb looking at a possible aleleged corrosion under the galley floor or FOD from ramp vehicles- or a moving LD container.

Of note is that in the internal galley/door 2 right shots, the internal trim on the forward edge of the door psot has been damaged. This may explain a possible initial cabin crew report of a door going or a main door warning light flashing on the flight deck.

Given that the interior door panel/post is showing damage, it is clear that the force of the so far unknown event did go thru the structure adn it is further evidence just how lucky QF are- and how stong Mr Boeing makes a 'plane.

At least it was not the old cargo door issue hey....

And yes, those frames are snapped sharp and randomly in an outward direction - very interesting indeed.

[infrequentflyer789]

look at the skin its all blown out frame broken and torn the the decompression would not do this, have you never seen myth busters?

diff press wont do this

Try looking up Aloha 243 then (fatigue failure plus decompression), or CAL 611.

Mythbusters (I believe from other reports - I don't watch it) disproved that firing a gun in a presurrised aircraft would cause a hole that would then tear it apart. Big deal - others have proved the same in real life (including pilots, recently).

What they didn't prove was that ED following other types of failure, eg. fatigue, doesn't cause significant damage, or indeed tear an aircraft apart. They would be silly to try and prove that, since there are plenty of examples of it actually happening.

[macnan]

Poof in Boots - the QF B744 that overran at BKK back in 1999 is still indeed in QF colours, reg VH-OJH. From all accounts (2nd hand obviously but widely reported) the cost of the repairs were huge and the hull should have been deemed a write-off on a cost analysis basis, but QF didn't want to lose the 'never written off a jet aircraft' claim so paid $100million (reportly) to fix the aircraft.

[Orestes]

I have thankfully never experienced an explosive decompression, but I have read that it is not unusual during such an event for the typical dust and small debris that accumulates for years in the nooks and crannys of a cockpit instrument panel to be suddenly blown up into the pilots' faces and eyes. Maybe they just had dirt in their eyes.

[Gertcha]

Will the UK AAIB be involved in this as the flight originated in the UK or will the fact that a stopover in HKG was involved override this?

[ABO944]

but I have read that it is not unusual during such an event for the typical dust and small debris that accumulates for years in the nooks and crannys of a cockpit instrument panel to be suddenly blown up into the pilots' faces and eyes

Crikey! If I ever have a explosive decompression on the old bird I fly, I will have to get a spade to dig out the crap from my eye sockets :}

[2ofsix]

The lap joint around stringer 40 ish will be my first conclusion. Its too far forward 50 inches of main galley so i doubt it would be corrosion from galley, beside when liquid escape from galleys it tends to corrode the floor frames first. Very unlikely to be the wing to body fairings that let go and ripped the fuse as the damage is too far back for that.
Happy to be corrected but this is my initial assessment from the limited visual data, will know more next week.

cheers

[lomapaseo]

Investigating body?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will the UK AAIB be involved in this as the flight originated in the UK or will the fact that a stopover in HKG was involved override this?

Yes, but probably not as the Lead.

Most likely Australian or possibly the state where it landed since a lot of investigation needs to be performed in situ.. Who leads it should have no bearing since the UK, Australian and US investigators will probably all particpate with experts and provide recommendations for prevention.

[Phil1980's]

Does anyone have a picture of what a pressure vessal looks like?

I mean the green thing and not the actual whole plane even though that is classed as one :)

[dj_lethal]

it's better to "EXPEDITE" than to stay longer in higher altitude!
staying too long will be more devastating..!

[ChristiaanJ]

I thought these days that passenger oxygen was via chemical generators and not cylinders ... I am NOT an expert ..just asking.Have you noted the age of the aircraft? That should answer your question.

[Little_Red_Hat]

The 747 oxygen system is fed from central tanks, not chem generators. therefore once activated it can be shut off. Also individual outlets can be utilised for medical cases.

As an ex-flight attendant, I'd also like to point out to the non-crew readers of this thread, that we are trained in decompression to:

1. Fit nearest available oxy mask

2. Secure self in nearest available seat, or, if unable, sit on the floor and hold on to fixed aircraft structure (either wedge self between seats or in other suitable space)

3. Instruct pax to do the same.

Hence reports of cabin crew "sitting on the floor" - they may well have been caught out far from their stations and with no aisle seats vacat (as is usually the case on Long Haul flights!!!) Second also the comments of 'tears' being eye irritation from dust/debris/cold... and possibly also the shock tothe system of inhaling air at -50 degrees!!!

[G-CPTN]

one is forced to note that NONE of the luggage on shown shows any sign of heat, melting, burning, or molecular/ physical change.
The visisble red bag would perhaps show such if it is synthetic and had been subject to combustive force.Explosions can occur without being chemical or generating (significant) heat - consider a child's balloon or even something like a football (although, of course, the force from either of these would probably be insignificant in such circumstances).

[shortfinals]

A bit of context from one of the flightglobal blogs. Would help if some of the journalists reporting on this story were to read it:

Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/)

SF

[VictorVector]

does this look like metal fatigue?

From the picture, the edges look smooth. If it were an explosion, would there not be jagged edges. The lower edges look as if a pies 'flaked' off. The upper edge looks as if is peeled off.

[Keefie]

I recall that many years ago a DC10(or Tristar) outbound from CDG, suffered decommpression while climbing. It transpired to be caused by incomplete closure of a baggage door.The result was loss of pressure in the hold ,but not in cabin which in turn led to cabin floor rupture and fatal damage to the control runs. This occurence sounds similar (although maybe frm different cause), so why no catastrophic floor damage?
:confused:

[sispanys ria]

Maybe because floor is equipped with bypass valves and blowable doors to prevent such occurrences...

[armchairpilot94116]

If I recall that would be Turkish DC 10-10 . Incomplete closure of a cargo door led to decomp which led to floor caving in which severed control cables?

[františek dobrota]

It was really "explosive" decomp... and without reliefe valves or blow-out panels...

Public Lessons Learned from Accidents (http://lessons.workforceconnect.org/l2/Turk/sum/)

[dixi188]

Flying Frog- post #80.

If Mrs Manchester did hear a loud bang 20 mins. out of LHR, this could have been the first piece of structure failing.

The remaining structure could then have held together for the 12 hour flight to Hong Kong (1 pressure cycle) and then failed on the next flight when the cabin diff built up towards max.

This failure would mean that the "fail Safe" load paths "Failed"!

However other design features appear to have worked. "Tear Stoppers" to limit the progression of splits in the A/C skin.

Just my thoughts from 39 years in aviation engineering.

[G-CPTN]

The remaining structure could then have held together for the 12 hour flight to Hong Kong (1 pressure cycle) and then failed on the next flight when the cabin diff built up towards max.What stage of the climb/cruise did the depressurisation occur?
What alterations to the freight/baggage load were made at Hong Kong?

The image in http://www.pprune.org/forums/4287721-post69.html is of good resolution and responds well to 'stretching' (load it into 'Paint' and 'Image' 'Resize' for users of M$).
The residue of film-wrap appears visible on the grey 'bag'.

[snowfalcon2]

I presume the investigation authorities, Qantas and CAA are busy doing their initial assessment. We might hear something official latest Saturday afternoon local time, or, as Manila is UTC+8h, morning European time.

I wonder if the incident location has been pinpointed? IIRC the lead investigating agency should be from the country overflown at the time of the incident, or if over international waters, the country of registration.

Edit: According to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, ATSB is dispatching a team of four investigators to Manila to assist local authorities with the investigation.

[enchrisg]

Forget Fairing failure initiating this amount of damage. Skin is the old waffle doubler construction I believe. Two sections of frames missing and the remains of at least two stringer repairs obvious. Other stringers seem to have failed pretty cleanly each side of the hole ? and the fwd frame has failed at some frame joint ?. And why the fillers under the frame feet ? Usually only do this if you replace a frame or skin. The remaining protruding forward Lap joint is very interesting as the lower skin is not connected to it ! And can you see the edge of a Lap joint scab repair ? Looking for the broken bits of frame or frame chord or safety chord but can’t see any - I believe that’s an intercostal sticking up in the lower part of the hole. This looks awfully like a structural failure, with some collateral damage. Don’t see any clues as to where the failure started but the experts will.
At a guestimate of 80,000 hrs and 12,000 cycles this aircraft would be deep into its ageing aircraft and corrosion control inspection programmes plus a whole raft of SB and AD inspections.
If the boffins rule out an explosion, Quantas/Boeing will be doing a lot of heartsearching about grounding the rest of their fleet. At least it’s not the crown skin.

[Poof in Boots]

"If the boffins rule out an explosion, Quantas/Boeing will be doing a lot of heartsearching about grounding the rest of their fleet. At least it’s not the crown skin".

The problem is enchrisg we are talking BOEING. The 737-200's were not grounded even after THREE hardover rudder crashes.

No one has an explanation for the BA 038 crash, yet hundreds of B777's still fly with yet more power down incidents.

A Concorde runs over a bit of metal off of a DC10 and the fleet is grounded, even though it has been flying for over 25 years with no previous loss of life and tyre vulnerability to debris a known Achilles Heel.

Make your own mind up.

[sispanys ria]

A Concorde runs over a bit of metal off of a DC10 and the fleet is grounded, even though it has been flying for over 25 years with no loss of life and tyre vulnerability to debris a known Achilles Heel.This is not really a good example ! No loss of life doesn't mean the aircraft is safe. AF and BA did operate this machine for years knowing its extremely bad records and numerous tires accidents (including many fuel tanks perforations), all with the blessing of the authorities...

It's wonderful to know 777s are still flying while the officials just cleared the crew (otherwise what's the point of the medals ?). It's good to know that medals can improve 777's operational safety on similar issues.

[Ricky1]

While reading this thread and watching the news I would have to agree that the level of journalism is dire. I understand that they want a big story and would like to make it as dramatic as they possibly can. However it would be better for all if they could try report the facts rather than shocked passengers with high adrenaline rushes.

From the 747 Operations Manual, here is the check list for Rapid Depressurization;

02.20.48
1. OXYGEN MASKS AND REGULATORS.................... ON 100% ALL
2. CREW COMMUNICATIONS..............................ESTABLISH ALL
3. ISOLATION VALVE (either)...................................CLOSE E
4. PACK VALVE SWITCHES..................................ALL OPEN E
5. EMERGENCY DESCENT (if required).....................INITIATE PF
6. PASSENGER OXYGEN (if required)..............ON/CK LT ILLUM E
7. NO SMOKING & SEATBELTS......................................ON E
8. P.A ANNOUNCEMENT.......................................AS REQ'D PNF
9. PASSENGER OXYGEN (below 10,000 ft.).................RESET E FA



As for the procedure for an emergency descent, well thats another checklist. They desent withen the aircraft disign limits. They basicaly get to 10,000ft as quickly and safely as they can.

So congrats to the crew as it looks like you delt with the problem to the book.

Anyone want some more information from the ops manual, pm

regards,
Rick

[snowy3000]

i totally agree with enchrisg (http://enchrisg). the stringers must have been spliced too make them weak enough to break.add x amount of years of corrosion, ,leaky honeycomb fibre panel to put it under pressure-one repair job too many.

[Private jet]

From the pics on TV it looks like its under door 2R. Theres a "strake" there to blend the fuselage with the root of the leading edge. I recall catering trucks regularly used to thump that area. The company (BA) put 2 red vertical stripes on the strakes to try and prevent this. Maybe it got thumped/damaged/punctured (and nobody owned up to it) the structure consequently weakened, which then failed when the pres diff went up.....who knows? anyway just a thought....apologies if this has already been mooted, can't read thru several pages of posts already...cheers.

[Blacksheep]

A nice walk through the visible damage enchrisg but who did the structural repair that the photo suggests was done earlier? :suspect:

...and was it carried out strictly according to the repair scheme drawings?

I don't think so.



BTW, check your PMs for a bit of personal chat.

[Beausoleil]

"If the boffins rule out an explosion, Quantas/Boeing will be doing a lot of heartsearching about grounding the rest of their fleet. At least it’s not the crown skin".

The problem is enchrisg we are talking BOEING. The 737-200's were not grounded even after THREE hardover rudder crashes.

No one has an explanation for the BA 038 crash, yet hundreds of B777's still fly with yet more power down incidents.

A Concorde runs over a bit of metal off of a DC10 and the fleet is grounded, even though it has been flying for over 25 years with no previous loss of life and tyre vulnerability to debris a known Achilles Heel.

Make your own mind up.


Commercial aviation achieves an accident rate of better than 1 in a million departures. Concorde had an accident within about 50,000 departures across the fleet. From what I understand, there was evidence of similar similar incidents that were "near misses". The probability is that concorde was significantly more dangerous than other models in operation.

I believe there are about 700 777s in operation. They must rack up more departures in one year than concorde did in its entire service. They have been in production for 20 years. Incidents like the BA crash are demonstrably rare and it is not unreasonable that the risk is seen as acceptable for them while that for concorde was not. The same went for 737 rudder hardovers and 747 failures.

[visibility3miles]

Disclaimer: I haven't read all the posts, but if I was a PAX or pilot or skydiver, I would call a rapid descent from FL 300 to FL 100 a PLUNGE, or one quick drop.

Don't whine/whinge if you don't like the reporting. POLITELY TELL THEM WHY WHAT WAS DONE WAS DONE WITH THE SAFETY OF THE PASSENGERS IN MIND.

Instead of whining at journos from a forum few people in the general public read (e.g., fare-paying passengers), I strongly suggest that everyone bothered by this description of a normal, life saving procedure:

PLEASE POLITELY CONTACT your local news media and explain how this is ROUTINE PROCEDURE designed TO SAVE LIVES in the event of loss of normal cabin pressure. Explain that at 10,000 feet (yes, US units), there is adequate air pressure, similar to that found on most flights, but that at 30,000, people who had not properly used the oxygen masks which immediately deployed might be at risk, so descending rapidly is done with the best intentions, not as a plunge, EVEN IF THE PASSENGERS MAY BE SURPRISED BY THE RAPID DESCENT.

[Infants can't clear their ears as easily as adults because their ear canal is shaped differently. (I assume you've all noticed the wailing "baby barometers" that are usually the first signal of a descent to land? They can't help it -- it hurts. Babies can clear their ears more easily if they suck on a pacifier, milk bottle, or some such...)
Likewise small children may have trouble clearing their ears because they don't know how.
Way back when, Cabin Crew used to hand out chewing gum or lollipops to young children for this very purpose, but it's another sensible courtesy that's fallen by the wayside.]

As to the passengers "getting sick" upon seeing the hole in the undercarriage... I'd be upset myself. Have the crew say again how grateful they were too the passengers for remaining calm and confident during the flight. CRM should include keeping the pax and CC in the loop and calm.

Congrats to the pilots and crew for a job well done.

[Phil1980's]

@Beausoleil....That's just a silly thing to say...to say it's the models fault...it wasn't concorde's fault that the DC-10 dropped debris all over the runway...any plane could have puntured their tire...

[herkman]

Mover 625 states that Qantas has never had a hull loss.

I do not beleive that is correct.

My understanding is that a L1049 was lost in Africa, when an engine failed on take off, the aircraft crashed off the end of the runway and ran into a ditch.

Aircraft I understand was a write off but no one I believe was badly hurt.

However as an outsider looking in, the creep toward bargain maintanance should be a cause of concern to all.

Regards

Col

[Falcon124]

QANTAS has had hull losses (see wikipedia: Qantas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas#Airline_incidents)) BUT it has never lost a JET.

QF1 into BKK was deemed by many to be a write off but was repaired at great cost.

So, still no jets lost - an admirable record but it's getting some nicks lately, between a 747 undercarriage failure in Rome, 747 electrical bus failure on descent to BKK, 717 heavy landing in Darwin and now this. Oh, and a few engine fires a while back.

[PJ2]

visibility3miles;

Many here, including myself, have spent time trying to educate the media and reporters, (most don't deserve the title, "journalist") and in the past I have done substantial media work directly related to aviation in terms of both industrial matters and more often flight safety matters. I was contacted only recently by an anchor of a national network with regard to an emergency (crew illness) and asked what I thought and "what it was like as a pilot to experience such a thing". I was offered about 15 seconds to say what I thought - an insult to any profession let alone one that requires patient comprehension rather than the oh-the-drama-of-it-all sensationalism which is all any newscaster is after. They don't have the time nor the inclination for anything more than that.

While there are a few true journalists who report intelligently and who ask perceptive or at least genuine questions, most have a short deadline, a cranky editor on steroids, no knowledge of aviation and no interest in further knowledge beyond what it takes to get the story out by the deadline because they've got to write another story on farm issues, the price of fuel or whatever.

I've been mis-quoted, lied to and (as the expression goes) had "tea and biscuits" with the VP for some things I tried to convey in the media but which were "misinterpreted" out of context. The risk for damage is significant and the reward for engaging the media is tiny by comparison. While I am a huge supporter of education and public relations because, again, this is a great industry, in times of ill fortune I don't blame airlines or pilots for staying away from the media. All you have to do is read what is written to know why.

I understand what you're saying, believe me, but having done it for years both in print and a bit on television where my first inclination is to patiently "teach", spending time explaining our issues in the cockpit, you have to appreciate that "understanding" and "knowledge" have a very short media shelf-life and, for media shareholders and advertisers such "human interest" stories don't capture nearly the ratings that sensational and exaggerated reporting does. To be blunt, ignorance is rewarded, understanding is not. I wish it were otherwise because this is an absolutely fascinating profession and industry which has tremendously interesting stories to tell, but for these very reasons cited, most in the media just don't want to know. That's just the way it is.

[G-CPTN]

I believe the claims refer to jet aircraft:-
While Qantas has never had a fatal jet airliner accident, the Australian national airline suffered several losses in its early days before the widespread adoption of the jet engine in civilian aviation. These were mainly biplanes or flying boats servicing routes in Queensland and New Guinea. The incidents between 1942 and 1944 were during World War II, when Qantas Empire Airways operated on behalf of the military. While strictly speaking not an accident, the shooting-down of G-AEUH is included for completeness.
More at:- Qantas fatal accidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_fatal_accidents)

[Dairyground]

The photographs, for example that in post #146, seem to show that the fairing failed in two distinct ways. The upper part appears to have shattered as if from an impact, but the lower part has left no significat remains, as if it had been torn away relatively slowly (in seconds or tenths of a second, rather than milli-seconds). Notice that the upper edge of the piece of honeycomb that is still attached seems to be inside the flap of the pressure vessel that has been bent upwards.

Still in that area, some of the metal under the remaining honeycomb appears to have been bent inwards, rather than outwards, although immediately below that, level with the outer red bag, there are bits of skin that definitely bend outwards.

This suggests to me that the initial breach was somewhere about the middle of the outer red bag. Absence of evidence of burning and lack of obvious damage to the items remaining inside the hull suggest that the prime cause was neither a chemical explosion nor the rupture of a gas bottle. So my guess as to the cause is rapid propagation of a crack or hole caused by some combination of fatigue, corrosion or impact.

By the way, what is the vertical bundle of wires that is visible just inside the rear edge of the hole? And what is the black rectangle at the bottom of the lower panel behind the hole? The bit hanging out appears to be too small (at least from the photograph) to be a cover, so is this something else that was blown out, if so a further indication that the primary failure was not of the fairing.

[Blacksheep]

...was significantly more dangerous than other models in operation.
Au contraire. I think you must mean that Concorde was significantly less safe than other models, which is not quite the same thing. If it were dangerous it would not have received a Type Certificate after more extensive testing and proving trials than any other aircraft, before or since, has ever been subjected to. Much safety evaluation is necessarily subjective, but the aircraft met the airworthiness requirements and was a safe machine.

If FOD results in penetration of a fuel tank or fuel system the result will generally be catastrophic for any aircraft. That is after all, why B737s now have armoured fuel tank access panels - but what were the chances of turbine disk shrapnel striking and bursting a small, ordinary fuel tank access panel, allowing fuel to flood onto the open hot section of an exploded engine and starting the Manchester fire? Such things are random events that can occur at any time, unrelated to aircraft type.

[Buster Hyman]

The FA had tears in her(his?) eyes. Could've been FOD, could've been the cold air, or it could've been that the FA was just plain scared...so friggin what? If this snippet interested me at all, it would be to see if the FA sucked it in & was a valuable contributor to the latter stages of the flight & helped bring order to the cabin.

I imagine that when this comment was made about the FA, it was during the descent when she, like the rest of the punters, was nothing more than a passenger during what would be a scary experience. I've certainly had my say about Cabin Crew over the years, but perhaps the people who were critical should take into account is that whilst there is years of training & repeated training for this event, what they cannot simulate is the fear that could be evoked & how individuals react.

[broadreach]

A few posters have suggested that shifting cargo might have punctured the skin. With a full aircraft, though, on a leg where there's plenty of cargo to boot, one would expect cargo compartments to be full. So, shifting isn't likely.

Those black and red bags, though, were probably stowed further forward and cascaded back when the original cargo or luggage was sucked out. What is that beam-like thing under the black bag at a 45° angle?

And looking at that remaining exposed stringer with the dark stain in the middle, doesn't the simplest possible answer just shout out corrosion as the most likely cause?

[sector8dear]

For what it's worth, looking at the close up picture, the metalwork of the pressure hull seems to be torn outward and quite distorted. Looks to me (no expert) like some fairly violent force involved here. Fairings apart, something more involved here to breach the pressure hull methinks.

[Leodis737]

What is that beam-like thing under the black bag at a 45° angle?


I think that's the frame that used to be vertical!
Image:Fuselage-747.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fuselage-747.jpg)

[mini]

Speculating... what the hell, it would be a two post thread otherwise...

My take on it so far is that it seems to be either corrosion or a result of previous collision with ground equipment. I don't buy the explosive device scenario TBH.

All got down in one piece, nothing else matters for the souls on board.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Well said Buster!:ok:

To those that have never had to resist the devils filthy out stretched hands,:mad:
I assure you, it will teach you something very quickly about your own character.

I will reinforce the fact that OAT of minus 40-50 degC, will definately make your eyes water.

Chr's
H/Snort.

[cats_five]

<snip>
The image in http://www.pprune.org/forums/4287721-post69.html is of good resolution and responds well to 'stretching' (load it into 'Paint' and 'Image' 'Resize' for users of M$).
The residue of film-wrap appears visible on the grey 'bag'.

Residue is visible but I'm not sure what that proves. It will have been subject to a lot of airflow from the moment of the depressurisation until landing - that could have damaged the film, rather than something inside the bag which is what I feel you are suggesting.

[Roger Dixon]

I have silently watched this forum with increasing fascination over a year or so. As an aging SLF with 45 years of winged travel under my belt, the Quantas incident makes me - sort of - want to say something, with your permission.

OK, you aeronautical experts out there can professionally speculate on causes such as the recent Quantas event. All good stuff (well, mostly anyway;) but let me make my somewhat earthy point. During an in-flight incident, the only people in the whole world that matter to the SLF are the folks up there behind the flight-deck door. I am constantly astounded at the skills and presence-of-mind displayed by airline pilots in cases of emergency.

Unashamedly, this posting is offered as a tribute to the gentlemen (and ladies) who can bring crippled airliners safely back to terra firma. In the final analysis, this is all that matters. Thank you.

[visibility3miles]

PJ2, I hear what you are saying. This is why I am trying to focus on the "plunge" aspect of the report.

Tell your local reporters that the plane did not "plunge" out of control. It may be difficult to believe, but most "journos", particularly those at local papers who can quote pilots in a general way, don't want to sound stupid.

Believe me, as someone who lives in the U.S., I am quite impressed that the reporting didn't escalate out of control.

I mentioned that babies and small children cry, when rapid pressure changes hurt their ears, in response to the fact that most early news reports I heard said that, "children started crying." So, the children crying in this case reflected the sudden decompression, not panic, and I specifically mention it as a compliment to everyone on board.

Anytime the news quotes passengers saying that a wind was whistling through the cabin has to indicate an unusual flight.

If anything, pictures indicate little luggage was lost, but I'd hate to have to fill out a lost luggage complaint on that flight...

Err, yes sir, madam, please wait over there and your luggage should float by any time now...

[DozyWannabe]

PIB:
The 737-200's were not grounded even after THREE hardover rudder crashes
Firstly, I believe it was two crashes and a recovery.

Secondly, any research into the investigation of those incidents will reveal that the NTSB covered every conceivable angle, but until they hit on the perfect storm that was a worn PCU valve plus thermal shock they could not replicate the hardover and reversal in the lab. It's true that Boeing did themselves no favours by trying to prove the crashes were caused by pilot error, but unfortunately until the technical design flaw was proven it was a legitimate line of enquiry.

Thirdly, Concorde was brought down by a perfect storm of its own. The tyre burst and even the fuel leak were not dangerous on their own, but the severing of electrical connections in the wheel well in the path of the leaking fuel provided the fatal blow by igniting the leaking fuel.

Predicting this kind of systems failure was in its infancy when the first 737 and the first Concorde flew, so to call either of them unsafe does both aircraft a disservice. They were safe by the standards of their time and that's all there is to it.

Glad everyone got down safely, this one looks interesting and I'll be paying attention. :)

[ozaub]

Yet again QANTAS is extraordinarily lucky – not just the Bangkok overrun in 1999 and loss of most electrical power on a 747 earlier this year, but also the long fuselage crack found in 2003. My article in Air Safety Week at http://www.aviationtoday.com/asw/categories/commercial/1891.html (http://www.aviationtoday.com/asw/categories/commercial/1891.html) explains structural fatigue and the limitations of “damage tolerance”. It also compares the QANTAS crack with a shorter one that downed China Airlines flight 611 in 2002

A more detailed account of the QANTAS damage is in para 8.3.2 of “A Review of Australian and New Zealand Investigations on Aeronautical Fatigue During the Period April 2003 to March 2005” at http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/3593/1/DSTO-TN-0624%20PR.pdf (http://dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/3593/1/DSTO-TN-0624%20PR.pdf). Here’s an extract
“In 2003, an Australian airline found a 30-inch crack in the rear fuselage of one of its Boeing 747-400s. The fuselage had lost so much bending strength it could have failed at any time.
It could have failed before the crack was obvious. Sealant hid the crack and stopped a leak. So, for this damage, there was no fail safety. When designing and approving the 747-400, to FAR 25 (Amendment 9), neither Boeing nor the FAA anticipated it.
It could have failed before the crack was detectable. So, for this damage, there was no damage tolerance. When developing and approving the SID (Supplemental Inspection Document), to FAA Advisory Circular 91-56, neither Boeing nor the FAA anticipated it.
It could have failed if a sharp-eyed mechanic had not seen the crack amid thousands of square feet of frames and stringers (like trying to find a needle in a haystack) at a 6-yearly check. The 747 would not have survived until the next one.”

[idydir]

Too hard to inspect structure behind the fire bottle - without removing it????

Oh well, i'm sure it'll be ok, after all we're not contracted to remove the bottle..... are we?

[b737800capt06]

"I have silently watched this forum with increasing fascination over a year or so. As an aging SLF with 45 years of winged travel under my belt, the Quantas incident makes me - sort of - want to say something, with your permission.

OK, you aeronautical experts out there can professionally speculate on causes such as the recent Quantas event. All good stuff (well, mostly anyway but let me make my somewhat earthy point. During an in-flight incident, the only people in the whole world that matter to the SLF are the folks up there behind the flight-deck door. I am constantly astounded at the skills and presence-of-mind displayed by airline pilots in cases of emergency.

Unashamedly, this posting is offered as a tribute to the gentlemen (and ladies) who can bring crippled airliners safely back to terra firma. In the final analysis, this is all that matters. Thank you."

I agree with Roger Dixson:ok:

As a pilot and SLF, it is thanks to people like Capt John Bartels that depressurisation is not a "plung" but a controlled flight level change.

Great Job to all crew on flight QF 30 :ok:

[pablo m]

I never realised there were so many experts on pprune. As an accident, incident and maintenance error investigator of some years, and 30+ years in the industry, lets keep the spekkkies way down and let CASA etc do their thing. The sort of misinformation from all and sundry on this does not help.
To the Tech and Cabin crew -well done, hope you are all well :ok:

[Intruder]

Unfortunately, the job of pilots and the job of journalists are exactly opposite:

The journalist's job is to turn a non-event into an event so he can get his byline on the front page or the TV news flash -- The checklist item 'Descend immediately to 10,000' or MEA' becomes "The airplane PLUNGED TENS of THOUSANDS of feet!"

OTOH, the pilot's job is to turn an event into a non-event, and make a normal landing at a good airport -- "What was that?!? Oops! Looks like we're losing pressure! "Loss of Pressurization checklist; squawk 7700, tell Control we're descending to 10; get clearance direct to Manila." Followed in a few minutes by by, "Good afternoon, folks. We have a problem, but it's under control. We'll be landing in Manila in a few minutes. We're a bit busy, but we'll have more information for you after we land. You can take off your oxygen masks now. Flight attendants, please prepare the cabin for landing."

[Nov71]

1. ITV reporting is definately tabloid compared to BBC's more restrained broadsheet version.

2. The photo at #146 appears to show a black 'paint scraper like object' piercing the green inner hull along a vertical seam about 3 panels below the bottom of the hole. Could this have been pushed through by weight shifting above (early bang), causing a slow puncture until an aerosol of hair spray etc in a soft bag on top against the hull 'exploded' causing the main damage (top of hole)

I note the luggage was not containerised, just netted and appears to plug most of the hole
Is the forward cargo hold pressurised?
The a/c was about 1 hour out of HK cruising at FL290

Just conjecture but we tend to forget aerosols can explode like hand grenades in low pressure environment, not just bonfires!

Finally, respect to all crew & pax aboard. I bet even the Captain went a little pale when he finally saw the damage.

[dream747]

Did the crew dump the fuel before they landed?

[Leezyjet]

Not sure if anyone picked up on this (only read up to page 6) but anyone else notice in this pic posted earlier :-

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/07/25/qantas2_wideweb__470x354,2.jpg

The door handle is cracked, and if you look very closely at the pics from the outside, the top and bottom flaps on door 2R are also cracked open too as can be seen in Pics 2,7 and 10 from the link below which would be consistent with the handle inside being in that posision :-

Manila, lo squarcio nell'aereo - Galleria - Repubblica.it (http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/esteri/aereo-manila/7.html)

Just wondered if this is of any significance due to the reports of a door "popping" in flight ?.

On a slight thread drift, it is possible to close the 747 doors and from the inside it looks normal, but from the outside the door doesn't quite engage properly and leaves a 1/2" gap between the door and the frame - not suggesting at all that is what happend here as from the outside pics, it doesn't look to be the case. I've had to re-open and close the door numerous times before removing the jet bridge when this has happend - but seeing this makes me wonder what would happen if it wasn't noticed before the a/c departed and if it closes enough to trigger the switch to show it as closed on the f/deck ?.

Back on track, word on the street says that the X-ray images of the bags loaded at LHR have been pulled to see if anything that shouldn't have been in there was loaded - this is just hearsay though from someone who works at LHR in T4, don't even know if such a system exists although I'm sure after Lockerbie it would be a good idea to keep the images of the hold baggage "just incase" - geddit (I'll get my coat).

:suspect:

[pacplyer]

Patrickal said:
Local TV in Boston is now reporting that the plane "plunged 2000 feet". I'll bet that the air at 28,000 feet is a lot easier to breathe than that thin stuff at 30,000. CBS News reporter out of London says "They are not sure if was an explosion, but it certainly was a "catostrophic" event. The lack of quality control, research and proof reading in professionial journalisim is stunning. I am to the point where I believe nothing they say or print.

Patrickal,

It really does beg the question, that if journalism is this inaccurate concerning aviation matters, and that they don't even bother to ask a pilot or mechanic or atc source if it's right; that they probably are just as inaccurate when reporting government, healthcare, or food safety stories to us. WMD's? Sure they had them, I read it in the paper...... :rolleyes:

Today's big company reporting is just another short-term money-getter. Retractions are rarely seen. := I'll get my no-holds-barred-news right here at PPRuNe with you other prunes thank you very much.

If crap is aired that doesn't pass the smell test, plenty of pros like the mechanics and engineers here will straighten us out.

Quite a great site for newsies to hang out at too and get their facts straight. Bursting-Ground-Pressurized-ULD's! Now that's creative!

[M609]

I just watched BBC World, they had an eldery gentelman reffered to as "Aviation analyst" in the studio, stating that ....."is was a case of an aircraft panel just giving away, since there was noe jagged edges or other evidence of explotion or other catastrophic even..." (paraphrase-ish)

Now, that´s a bit bold is it not?

[B777FD]

I have been studying the photos of the stuff hanging out damaged area and I am curious to all the references to baggage. I can't see any presence of a container - surely some of it would be visible? This leads me to think it is freight on a pallet and the stuff that looks like wiring is actually the parts of cargo netting. You can see what is maybe netting around the "packages".

Probably irrelevant I know but it did cross my mind that this incident may be DGR related. Unlikely that a pallet would shift anyway let alone in a lateral direction, and if it is skin failure due to corrosion (which I have read the posts about - very informative) would the vacuum from the decomp be strong enough to pull netted down cargo off a pallet towards the hole?

Just my thoughts and obviously speculation.

[Dio Gratia]

200804689 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200804689.aspx)

AO-2008-053: Boeing 747-438, VH-OJK, Near Manila Philippines

Occurrence Details Occurrence Number: 200804689 Location: Near Manila Philippines Occurrence Date: 25 July 2008 State: INTL Occurrence Time: unknown Highest Injury Level: None Occurrence Category: Serious Incident Investigation Type: Occurrence Investigation Occurrence Class: Mechanical Investigation Status: Active Occurrence Type: Airframe Release Date:

Aircraft Details Aircraft Manufacturer:Boeing Co Aircraft Model:747-438 Aircraft Registration:VH-OJK Serial Number:25067 Type of Operation:High Capacity Air Transport Damage to Aircraft:Substantial Departure Point:Hong Kong China Departure Time: Destination:Melbourne Vic.Crew Details:Role Class of Licence Hours on Type Hours Total Pilot-in-Command ATPL


Abstract

It is reported that the aircraft diverted to Manila with damage to the fuselage.
The investigation is continuing.

[pacplyer]

Quantas 744 Depressurisation
Forget Fairing failure initiating this amount of damage. Skin is the old waffle doubler construction I believe. Two sections of frames missing and the remains of at least two stringer repairs obvious. Other stringers seem to have failed pretty cleanly each side of the hole ? and the fwd frame has failed at some frame joint ?. And why the fillers under the frame feet ? Usually only do this if you replace a frame or skin. The remaining protruding forward Lap joint is very interesting as the lower skin is not connected to it ! And can you see the edge of a Lap joint scab repair ? Looking for the broken bits of frame or frame chord or safety chord but can’t see any - I believe that’s an intercostal sticking up in the lower part of the hole. This looks awfully like a structural failure, with some collateral damage. Don’t see any clues as to where the failure started but the experts will.
At a guestimate of 80,000 hrs and 12,000 cycles this aircraft would be deep into its ageing aircraft and corrosion control inspection programmes plus a whole raft of SB and AD inspections.


Shrewd observations enchrisg and others,

If I am not mistaken, this whole area is the notorious section 41, section 43 mod vicinity. These mods were carried out in the late 80's-90's because it is very easy to pressurize a cirular airframe shape, but very difficult to pressurize an egg shape as the 747 is. Circular structure is more predictable in stress anyalysis, load bearing risk, not to mention repair. Add to this cocktail the persistent corrosion issues under galleys or lavs; and then factor in management's ability to postpone mandatory million dollar repair programs for years and you have all the ingredients necessary for a drink called a widowmaker at midnight on the figurative airframe clock.

Every time a loud "oil-can" noise went off on climbout, the two guys up front looked at each other like: Is this the big one? :}

The fix they said? "Just write it up."

"Ground checks O.K! O.K to continue..."


BONG, BONG, BONG....


Ask not who the BONG tolls for. The BONG tolls for you..... The BONG tolls for me. :eek:

[Xeque]

The name 'Longreach' is painted in gold on the nose of the QANTAS B744. Can anyone confirm that this is the name given to the aircraft or is it something else. I ask because the same name is painted on the nose of the aircraft that overran at BKK - look at the photographs posted earlier.
Coincidence???

[rewfly]

I don't think this is the case, AFAIK Longreach is on many on Qantas's planes. And their website uses the name of Longreach as a type of configuration. Flying with Us - In the Air - Seat Maps - Boeing 747-438 Longreach (http://www.qantas.com.au/info/flying/inTheAir/ourAircraft/seatMap744)

[Capt Kremin]

All QF 744's have the generic "Longreach" written on the side of them. They are also named individually after Australian cities.

VH-OJH was the BKK aircraft. Contrary to what some would have you believe, the cost of repairing that aircraft was less than half of buying a new one. It was the Insurers decision to repair the aircraft, not QF's.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Longreach - I believe Longreach is the generic name given to all QF 747-400's, just as SIA called their first 747-300's "Big Top ". and their -400's Mega Top. QF delivered their first - 400 non-stop LHR - SYD which is a long reach. Min crew, no baggage - not even theirs I believe ! - and re-flightplanning in flight to reduce the contingency required stage by stage. Good effort. ( Sorry if the memory has made a few errors - happy to be corrected )

[xfsd]

Longreach appears on the side of the 747-400 throughoutt the QF fleet
Longreach is a Queensland country town that has historical significance to the origins of Qantas - it is also the home of the Qantas musuem where a 747-238 (VH-EBQ??) and VH-XBA a 707-238 are parked

[vortsa]

Longreach is the name given to the aircraft type, there is another name usually a city in Australia given to individual aircraft. James Strong tried to change that tradition by naming aircraft after human traits.
eg Inspiration, Admiration, and of course Stupidity.

[B777FD]

is where the head office used to be.

From the QANTAS website history section:

"In the words of McMaster, Winton was `the official birthplace of Qantas'. The first and only meeting of directors in the town was held on 10 February 1921. Qantas operations were then moved 160km south-east to Longreach, which was more central to the operational area.

Qantas' first office in Longreach was destroyed by fire. A temporary office was provided free in stock and station agent Frank Cory's plank-fronted store. Qantas later occupied the nearby Graziers Building until moving its headquarters to Brisbane in 1929. "

[Xeque]

Thanks Capt K
I knew all the aircraft had names like (I think) City of Hobart, City of Sydney etc. Longreach is a town in Australia I believe - hence my question.

[Mahatma Kote]

Looking at the high detail photo of the breach, is that the head of a golf putter I can see in the lower right of the hole?

It's gold coloured and has a large 'S' engraved on it.

That would indicate the pallet was carrying oversized luggage rather than standard bags?

[mark sicknote]

February 20, 2008: Three of four electrical systems on a Qantas Boeing 747 approaching Bangkok from London were lost due to water leakage in the forward galley. Cabin crew used blankets to mop up the leak, and the jumbo was forced to land on battery back-up. Now do please tell me this is a different aircraft. This is an area known for corrosion issues...thats where I'd be looking first. Best, Sicknote

[peter mcgrath]

Looking at the high detail photo of the breach, is that the head of a golf putter I can see in the lower right of the hole?

It's gold coloured and has a large 'S' engraved on it.



looks like part of a bag, "ST" and some other characters
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/962/20080726132717hq5.jpg

[Magic Fingers]

Funny how on the first couple of pages on this thread the usual suspects started bagging Qantas management. "Cheap Asian maintenance and Qantas bean counters caused this incident, our professional engineers in Australia would never sign out such an aircraft." Oh look, it was actually maintained here in Australia. Deafening silence.

Have a look at the threads after the 744 electrical bus failure a few months ago. Same initial whingeing. "Must have been cheap Asian workers with their staple guns that nearly caused our plane to crash". Whoops, looky here, it was just checked out in Avalon. (Please, don't take my word for it, go and look at the threads yourself.)

Everyone is so eager to lay blame where it suits them it could be mistaken for an American litigators convention.

Congratulations to the flight crew, cabin crew, and passengers for staying calm and getting so many of our countrymen back down safely.

[pacplyer]

Good enlargement peter mcgrath!

I gotta tell you,

It looks like the bottom of a steel pallet or an aluminum ULD container. STA = short for Station? Structural weight? Anybody know? Can't remember the structural "TARE" type loading container abbreviations now.

Not good, that's for sure......

The plot thickens..... This one's another cliff hanger.

[Mahatma Kote]

Thanks Peter McGrath for the blowup of the 'golf club' - now clearly a strap of some sort.

However, the blowup did show something else interesting. At the far right the metal panel edges are bent *in*, not out. The whole metal flap is obviously pushed out, but the actual edge has been rolled inwards with a semi-circular profile.

Peter, could you perhaps blow up that section and post?

[Little_Red_Hat]

In response to Leezyjet re: interior pic of door... if by 'cracked' you mean in the 'cracked position'... my guess is, this was done after landing.

If the door had indeed opened (even a bit) in flight, the crew may have been able to use a device on the 747 (restraint strap) which is designed to keep a door in the 'cracked' position should the need arise to vent smoke/fumes from the main deck... again this is purely guessing and may not have been possible AFTER a door is opened/has come open but I would hazard a guess most 747 crew would have had this thought cross their mind as a way of possibly securing a 'faulty' door - or one which they couldn't fully close???

[Xeque]

Fox news last night:
This was a virtually new airplane
Unbelievable

[peter mcgrath]

However, However, the blowup did show something else interesting. At the far right the metal panel edges are bent *in*, not out. The whole metal flap is obviously pushed out, but the actual edge has been rolled inwards with a semi-circular profile.

Peter, could you perhaps blow up that section and post?


Its getting pretty close to the limit of the resoluton, but for what its worth here it is.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8161/20080726140529ml3.jpg

[Capt Kremin]

Wouldn't a crack caused by corrosion normally follow a rivet line? If so, there are some jagged pieces of metal there that definitely aren't on a rivet line.
When more is generally known about some of the problems faced by the flight deck crew after the initial depressurisation, they are going to get an even bigger pat on the back. It wasn't straightforward and it was very well handled indeed.

[Spaz Modic]

and of course Stupidity.

:} I didn't know Turbo Tie wanted to name all the fleet after himself. :E

[Pugilistic Animus]

Try looking up Aloha 243 then (fatigue failure plus decompression), post 166---

Aloha, survived the emergency decent, but they weren't that high---

---if there were structural considerations--I'd decent at VTP/RA ---in order to militate [hopefully:\]--the effects of the failure---realizing a slower ROD will ensue---but many Explosive decompressions result from structural failure such as Aloha---


note---Some may say how may one know there was a failure?---well like the US Suprem Court Defines Obscene--'you know it when you see it'--I guess I just have to trust myself:eek:

PA

[Jerry B.]

How about the plane might have hit something like a mini meteorite? Shooting stars are a reality that can be seen if you are lucky. Why couldn't a plane run into one of these?