MERGED: Qantas Decompression ?

[speedbirdhouse]

Are the holes in the Swiss Cheese lining up??

From Today's, "Australian".

-----------------------

Qantas flight 'plunges as door pops'

July 25, 2008

A QANTAS flight plunged 20,000 feet after a door 'popped' mid-flight, passengers are reporting.

The plane has just made an emergency landing in the Philippines following reports that a door "popped", causing depressurisation, during a flight between London and Melbourne.

Qantas is refusing to confirm the incident, but passengers who have called Herald Sun Online say oxygen masks dropped from the ceiling during the incident.

Others said the plane suddenly plunged from 30,000 feet to 10,000 feet.

One passenger reported the pilot did 'an amazing job' of controlling the craft.

Flight QF 30 was due to arrive in Melbourne around 10pm tonight.

It was one hour from Hong Kong when the incident occured.

The plane is now on the tarmac at Manila airport with all passengers - the majority of them Australians - on board.

[capt787]

i think its just Murphy Law ~ 'if its possible to happen, then it will happen'

[Green gorilla]

Not saying this is a minor event but every thing will get to the media now.

[drshmoo]

Qantas Lames deserve to be treated a lot better than the current crap that they are dealing with. I hope that there were a few in management and their families on that flight. It may give them some better insight as to the REAL seriousness of the business of flying and not just showing shareholders and boardrooms flashy numbers at the end of the financial year.

As our aircraft get older and our maintenance gets more removed from our experienced local LAMEs, the more this will continue. I for one hope things like this - make the bean counters wake up as to the true value of GOOD maintenance. I fly these aircraft, the bean counters fly the desk (smelling of rich mahogany of course:ok:)

[-JLS-]

I did have to laugh at the sensationalist "plunges" 20,000ft....like they lost control of the aircraft or something....

[priapism]

I'd like to be a fly on the wall of the QF department of spin doctoring right now!

[Critical Reynolds No]

"plunged"!:ugh:

Isn't that what you do when you try and unstick the sink?

[Ngineer]

Not saying this is a minor event but every thing will get to the media now.

Whilst I agree that QF maybe under the media spotlight, from a LAME's perspective it is utterly frustrating to watch an airline that was once known for it's impeccable safety standards reduced to this. It's been one thing after another, and of no co-incidence as some imply.

Of course we must manage cost control/cutting to remain competitive and profitable, however people currently managing Engineering have no idea or experience on how to carry this out in a safe and effective manner.

When we do suffer our first hull loss, a lot of lessons will be learnt. Hopefully this may also spur a much needed shake-up of our incompetent air safety regulator.

[beaver_rotate]

From Qantas plane in emergency landing (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=603727)

"There was a huge explosion," Mr Higgins said.

"We found out later that there was a huge hole in the side of the plane.

Ahhh say what now????

Can someone explain or is this media beat up at its best!??!?

BR

[airbus_galley_girl]

It seems the aircraft is a 747-400:ooh:

[airsupport]

Re some previous comments, is this in any way to do with off shore maintenance? OR do you just mean maintenance cut backs in general? :confused:

[NAMPS]

Maybe the use of the term "emergency descent" wasn't quite as sensationalist as the word "plunged".

[Critical Reynolds No]

Apparently it has a 2metre gash.:ok:

[Van Gough]

When we do suffer our first hull loss

I'd bet that management would buy a new aircraft and change regos and still say they had never had a hull loss. Wasn't the Bangkok incident a write off?

[-JLS-]

Haha, I just saw a brief news update on TV for this story....complete with footage of a 737 landing.....are they using 737s to fly to London now?

[bekolblockage]

It seems the aircraft is a 747-400

Correct. VH-OJK

[Cessna Capt]

doors popping open and holes in things....sounds like another day in GA

serriously though, ever snice QF has gone overseas for some of their maintaince needs they seems to be an increase of incidents. Hurry Up CASA and just make that report into overseas maint orgs public

[Sydney2006]

Was VH-OJK on ACA sometime last year about the staples in the wiring from Singapore maintenance?

Good to know it landed safely

Aaron.

[Clipped]

"There is a big hole in the belly of the aircraft near the right wing about three metres in diameter," he said.

WTF .. skin fatigue?:confused:

[Red Jet]

Speaking from the Manila airport, passenger Dr June Kane says she heard a loud bang from underneath the plane, and saw debris fly through the cabin.

"I'm looking at the plane now and on the left hand side, just forward of the wing, there's a gaping hole from the wing to the underbody," she said.

"It's about two metres by four metres and there's baggage hanging out so you assume that there's a few bags that may have gone missing."

[Critical Reynolds No]

:eek:Surface to Air Missile?:eek:

[Ngineer]

Apparently it has a 2metre gash.

Crickey! Sounds like there gonna need some pretty bloody big staples to put that back together!

[tasdevil.f27]

Another passenger report said they could see through the hole from inside the cabin? The poor chap was pretty emotional and shaken so could be over doing the hole sizes etc, be a scary ride for them.Would QF being kicking themselves that they never got some 777's right about now? I know holes etc can happen to any aircraft, but the 747's seem to be having some issues of late.

[QFinsider]

Accountants need be kept away from anything involving operational experience. I said it with QF2 into Bangkok.

Management lack any operational experience. Smart ass graduates knowing the price of everything, yet the cost of nothing....

We were lucky AGAIN.
Well done guys!

[Critical Reynolds No]

Ua 811 - 24/2/1989?

[lowerlobe]

Just saw a pic on the afternoon news...it appears to be a reasonably large hole where the starboard wing joins onto the fuselage.(spelling)

T

[Sunfish]

Is this an aircraft that was sent overseas for maintenance and overhaul????

If so, might this be an example of an inspection that got signed off "overnight"?

[ANstar]

Wasn't OJK the one that had corrosion issue back in Feb whilst having MX done in avalon?

[takeonme]

Who's gonna be the first to put pics up?

[barrheadboy]

dustin hoffman might be eating his words in the near future. if dixon and his cohorts continue to run qantas.

[ANstar]

Pic here

Qantas plane door pops open on flight from London to Melbourne | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24076247-5001021,00.html)

[Critical Reynolds No]

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j288/fizzychops/bags.jpg

[Keg]

Far out Brussel Sprout! Well done to the crew!

I think that's termed a 'near miss'. Let the games begin between the engineers and the company about where this aircraft was serviced and dealt with.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Im not sold on this being a bad maintenance event. Perhaps a more sinister beginning?
Good work crew!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzz

[StickWithTheTruth]

From the Herald Sun.

The big question is... what is the pilot thinking to himself, pictured here?

Who can think of the best caption?




http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/hole.jpg

BREAKING NEWS: Passengers have described how they feared their plane would disintegrate after a "massive" hole appeared mid-flight.
The plane made an emergency landing in Manila (http://www.worldairportguide.com/airport/240/airport_guide/South-East-Asia/Manila-Ninoy-Aquino-International-Airport.html) about 1:20pm after the cabin depressurised due to the hole in the fuselage.
Got a picture or video? MMS it to 0404 333 444
Readers' comments: Qantas emergency (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/comments/0,22023,24076145-661,00.html) Sources report the hole, near the cargo door, was ''several meters wide'' and caused what passengers describe as an "explosive" depressurisation.
Melbourne woman Dr June Kane said passengers were stunned by an ''incredible boom''.
''There was wood and newspapers flying past me and a woman who I was talking to in first class and then oxygen masks fell down,'' Dr Kane said. ''The moment it happened I thought we were going to plunge to our deaths.

''There was an incredible boom. Everyone thought the plane would disintegrate. (The hole)
goes right under the plane. It's about 2 metres by 4 metres.

''Baggage was flying out.''
The International Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/25/asia/AS-Philippines-Emergency-Landing.php) quotes Manila International Airport Authority deputy manager for operations Octavio Lina as saying that several passengers vomited after they disembarked.

"There is a big hole on the right side near the wing," he told the newspaper's website, saying it appeared to be 2.5 to 3 meters in diameter.

He said parts of the floor had collapsed to reveal cargo underneath. The ceiling around the area also collapsed.

"Upon disembarkation, there were some passengers who vomited. You can see in their faces that they were really scared," he said.
The flight was travelling between London and Melbourne.
The pilot has just addressed passengers in Manila confirming there was a large hole in the aircraft and that the cause of the incident was unknown.
He was greeted with rousing applause from passengers.
Qantas (http://www.qantas.com.au/) this afternoon confirmed there was an incident, saying flight QF 30, carrying about 350 passengers, was forced to make an emergency landing in Manila after de-pressurising at cruising altitude.

An emergency room was set up at the airline's head office at Mascot after the incident was reported.

Senior airline executives there were being briefed continuously through the afternoon by aircraft engineers.

Qantas this afternoon was still trying to establish how a large hole came to appear in the fuselage outside the baggage compartment.

The 747-400 jet had flown from London via a stopover in Hong Kong.

Passengers who have called Herald Sun Online say oxygen masks dropped from the ceiling during the incident.
The plane then made a rapid descent 30,000 feet to 10,000 feet as the pilot brought the craft lower to deal with the effects of the depressurised cabin.
Passenger Brendan McClements said there was a sudden "gust of wind" through the plane.
''There was a degree of surprise - people questioning what it was,'' he said.
''There was a rush of wind as the air pressure came down. It got people's attention. It was then a matter of getting the masks on.''
Another passenger described how children burst into tears after a "quick bang" reverberated throught the cabin. She said the plane plunged, but then stabilised after about five minutes.
Mr McClements, the chief executive of Victorian Major Events, praised the pilot and crew.
''The crew were terrific they did a great job. Everyone gave them a round of applause as we landed.''
Mr McClements said the faulty door was on the "driver's side" of the plane, just before the wing. He said there was ''a big gap where the door used to be''.
He said other passengers seemed in ''resonably good spirits''.
Another passenger reported the masks fell from the ceiling, the plane "dropped suddenly" and there was a "fairly explosive" depressurisation.
One passenger reported the pilot did "an amazing job" of controlling the craft.
Flight QF 30 was due to arrive in Melbourne about 10pm tonight.
It was one hour from Hong Kong when the incident occured.
The plane is on the tarmac at Manila airport with all passengers - the majority of them Australians - on board.
"Qantas can confirm Qantas flight 30 from Hong Kong to Melbourne has been diverted to Manila," a Qantas spokeswoman said.
"The aircraft is on the ground and being inspected as we speak."
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has been notified of the incident and its director of air safety is being briefed by Qantas officials.
A spokesman said depending on the extent of any mechanical failure, Australian investigators may be required to fly to Manila to conduct an investigation.
ATSB director of aviation safety investigation Julian Walsh said the 747-400 had suffered a large hole in the underside, front forward section of the aircraft below the passeenger floor.
Mr Walsh said the hole - below what is known as the R2 (right front) passenger door, had been opened up in the cargo area of the plane, but it was unknown whether it had been caused by loose cargo, an internal component breaking away, or an exterior projectile such as an engine impellor.
"The informatino we have is there was damage to the fuselage ... it is a serious incident," Mr Walsh said, adding a team of ATSB investigators were preparing to fly to Singapore.

He said the hole has caused a rapid depressurisation event in the aircraft which caused oxygen masks to be deployed in the cabin.
The pilot then initiated a "controlled descent" from 29,000 feet to 10,000 feet.

An official at Manila airport's accident investigation section said the Qantas aircraft had experienced a problem with one of its doors, possibly as a result of the fuselage damage.

[Howard Hughes]

what is the pilot thinking to himself, pictured here?
That's the last time I am having the curry...;)

[Jed Clampett]

Well done Capt JB and crew. I know the curries are good out of HKG but that one had just a bit too much spice.:eek:

[Going Boeing]

I apologise for speculating but the large oxygen bottles (13 I believe) for both pax and flight crew oxy supplies are along the starboard side of the forward cargo hold. An exploding oxy bottle could have done the damage shown in the above photo.

[Capt Kremin]

We'll never hear the end of this one from JB.:eek:

Well done to the whole crew.

[AussieNick]

Woah, now that would be a rude shock. Can't wait to see the ATSB and CASA reports on this.

Good work on the crews behalf. And great to see the media up to their old tricks, Plummets lol

[Ngineer]

If that was a bomb it will be interesting to see how it got on our aircraft. And if it did, then the passenger/owner should have been on board as well, and should be discovered in due time.

Either way the crew deserve a big pat on the back.

[Clipped]

Cargo fire or O2 bottle let go?:confused:

[DrPepz]

QF VH-OJK Corrosion Issues :( — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3862862/)


From the above thread, VH-OJK was last maintained in Avalon in Feb/Mar 08, where they found significant corrosion. The LAMEs can't blame offshore maintenance for this one!

[QFinsider]

I wonder how the extra drag and the accompanying emergency descent would have placed the aircraft if were on the way to Joburg or across the Pacific.

Makes the DPD "pre flight" consideration a lot more relevant.

[Capt Fathom]

If it was an Oxy bottle as some speculate, I guess all the passengers and crew took a big, deep breath as they started decent! :E

If you weren't in the young & fit category, you'd be feeling a bit ordinary at the end of it!

[woollcott]

OK, OK, lets just look at this logically...................
Would appear the possibilities are :

1) Corrosion / fatigue issue. Kind of surprising, but definitely the most likely. Tear appears to terminate on a frame - so you could assume the structure has done its job in limiting the "growth" of the damage. Whether there are fatigue issues due to poor maintenance practices or poor inspections will remain to be seen.

2)Explosive device / dangerous cargo. I dont want to go there about a bomb, and an illegal cargo (gas cylinder, fireworks etc etc) is unlikely. Both would have been in containers a reasonable distance from the fuselage skin.

My bet is 1)............

I'm afraid the reputation of Qantas has now been damaged almost beyond repair.

[Islander Jock]

The big question is... what is the pilot thinking to himself, pictured here?
"I wonder how long it will take for this to appear on PPRUNE"? :ok:

[QFinsider]

I wonder how the extra drag and the accompanying emergency descent would have placed the aircraft if it were on the way to Joburg or across the Pacific.

Makes the DPD "pre flight" consideration a lot more relevant.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well done that crew.

Even the media report seems well written.

What is he thinking?

"**** ME that is a big hole!!!"

[SilverSleuth]

Apparently (and this is according to channel 10) It is the actual aircraft that carried the pope. Now that would have got real headlines had it happened 24 hours earlier.

[Clipped]

"Mine is the red bag, please".

[tipsy2]

Interesting picture.

Looks very much like a bit of the wing to fuse fairing has departed company from its usual position.

That of course is not as spectacular or sensational as " door pops "

I see the skippers name mentioned. Trust a fish head ex PCK QFI to get his face in the paper.

tipsy

[Voidhawk9]

"I'm glad they aren't taking the picture from behind me" :eek:

[Keg]

Doesn't that mean it's JB's shout now that he's got his mug in the paper? :}

[PPRuNeUser0182]

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6164917,00.jpg :sad:

[CaptainMidnight]

I wonder how the extra drag and the accompanying emergency descent would have placed the aircraft if it were on the way to Joburg or across the Pacific.
Those SY - Joburg flights go a LONG way south at times - so the pucker factor would be high for quite a while getting to a suitable AD.

[Transition Layer]

Apparently (and this is according to channel 10) It is the actual aircraft that carried the pope. Now that would have got real headlines had it happened 24 hours earlier.

Wrong...I believe OEE did the Pope Charter. Nice try Channel Ten.

[HEALY]

"S.O. #####, can you check to see if we have CDL relief for this one"

[longlegs]

Aahhh. Haven't been to D&G for quite a while but how refreshing to check for news on a very significant event for QANTAS and 747-400 operators worldwide and get to read the same old tired rhetoric from the same old crowd. Outsourced maintenance, dispute pilots etc. How dull, uninteresting and irrelevant given the event.

If you don't like your boss, the employer, your job, your colleague or the industry, do what your wife told you. Get out!!!!

Disappointing. :zzz::zzz::zzz:

PS Go your hardest when you play the man not the topic in your reply. I don't expect anything else.

[CTMike]

How can i convince management i dont want to fly this?? "I know from past experience that they will just want to get a EA and continue on". You wont be able to see it with a new wing to body fairing on.:ok:

[Newgen]

Cargo fire or O2 bottle let go?:confused:

Hmmmmm....

There are 2 horizontally mounted crew oxygen bottles just fwd of the "hole" in the fuse. By the looks of it, the hole is around the area where the first of the vertically mounted pax oxygen bottles are located, along with some flow control regulators. As stated by clipped, there are also cargo fire bottles in this area.

When I saw the pic for the first time, I instinctively thought oxygen due to the location. It will be interesting to see what the investigation findings are. In any case, hats off to the crew and pax for an injury free safe landing.

[maggot]

Who mentioned the dispute?? jb is a long time q pilot longleggs... pass on the peace pipe

[PLovett]

"I wonder how long it will take for this to appear on PPRUNE"?

On multiple threads.:ugh:

[DutchRoll]

It is not, repeat not, the aeroplane which carried the Pope.

That was VH-OEE, one of the youngest 400s in the fleet (the youngest? I can't remember if we have an OEF). I spoke to one of the LAMEs who helped send it off when we arrived at SIT just after the Pope had left.

[inthefluffystuff]

Ah did those bloody eel staples come loose?

[Ngineer]

If there was an oxy cylinder at this station then it looks like its goooone.

[B.Dawson]

Hmm ,I wonder if closing down heavy was such a good idea after all.What do u think DC MH and FOD?

[DH 200']

"Where the hell are we going to get enough duct tape for that?"

[bekolblockage]

Definite signs of the skin blown /curled outwards.
Looks like the wing root fairing just parted company due to outward pressure.

[Going Boeing]

where is the skin of the cargo container - and why has it ruptured?

The aluminium skin of the baggage containers is very thin and would be easily ruptured (ie blown apart) by the force of an oxy bottle letting go. The fuselage skin is much stronger but was no match for this force.

[Ref + 10]

"It was only a small hole when we left..."

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

In the photo that Information Charles posted (close up from slightly behind the damaged area) it appears that the side of the ULD closest to the fuselage wall has gone as well.

There's an awful lot of metal and fibreglass missing from that area!

I wonder how much, if any, collateral damage there is along the leading edges of the wing/stab, and whether there was any damage to the engines as a result of debris impact.

Let's hope that an official, initial, finding isn't too long in coming - it'll help calm everyone's nerves.

[Capt Kremin]

Or maybe the problem came from inside the ULD.

[Feather #3]

Problem there, Doc; he wasn't in GA!

G'day :uhoh:

[Fris B. Fairing]

It is not, repeat not, the aeroplane which carried the Pope.

This misreporting is doubtless a consequence of painting the class name "Longreach" on the nose of every Qantas 744.

[B A Lert]

Wonder what might have been the outcome had this incident occurred west of Hong Kong? There for the grace of God....

[JaseAVV]

VH-OEJ is the youngest 747-400ER in the fleet I believe.

It was the one our Olympians came home on wasn't it? The Red aboriginal arty one.

VH-OEE (the one the pope flew home on?) is another newish 744ER.

The incident aircraft (VH-OJK) is a standard 747-400.

If this was an 747-400ER that hole would be right next to the auxillary fuel tank in the forward cargo that only ERs have.

Flight crew earn every cent they get paid.

[Keg]

I'll tidy it up for you Doc:

"I thought I left this sort of 5hit behind when I got out of the NAVY!".

:ok: :}

[tipsy2]

Fris, I think you are being to lenient and generous towards those purveyers of scribble that populate the so called news organisations.

tipsy

[Jed Clampett]

Has anyone heard or read any scant praise for the crew from our beloved leader GD yet. Needs to take a leaf out of WW's scrapbook on how to deal with your staff after an event.:mad:

[Dixondik]

"Dixon told me it was 500 mile an hour tape."

[tipsy2]

There will be many of JB's former students from 1FTS that will tonight be claiming they taught him all he knows.:cool:

tipsy

[Green gorilla]

They earnt every cent they are doing what they are trained

[Brian Abraham]

How can I convince GD it wasn't my fault.

[SOPS]

I am listening to the BBC World Service. Thr reporter just aked a passenger.."how far did the aircraft plunge before the pilot regained control":ugh:

Why cant these idiots ask someone with knowledge before they open thier mouths?

On another note, have not heard much from GD..too busy adding up the bonus?

[Gear Down & Welded]

Fris, Yes I did have a quiet chuckle when the noobs on Ch7 said the other day that the aircraft carrying the Pope was called 'Longreach'... but I digress!

Well done to the folks up the pointy end! :D:D:D:ok:That's one way to get your attention!

Not wanting to dispel the O2 theory but since cans are only made of thin aluminum, and most have holes in them already since they tend to get the crap belted out of them by the bags I think that the 8psi of differential put paid to the side of the ULD when the hole let go.

Looking at the pics it is in no way related to UA811, that was an issue with the door itself unlocking in flight, something long since fixed (thank god). As you can see in the pics the door is still closed an locked... and I assume it'll stay that way until the ATSB want to get in there tomorrow sometime.

Let's not get the cart before the horse folks... this report will make some good reading!

[woollcott]

Looking again, I think it would have to be an oxy cylinder - they live at Sta 720 - Sta 780 - exactly where the damage is.
However, the presence of luggage would seem to indicate an explosion came within the container unless the bang was big enough to damage and open the sides of the container - but it would have to be a very big bang!

More of a worry, a pax is quoted thus:

"I'm looking at the plane now and on the left hand side, just forward of the wing, there's a gaping hole from the wing to the underbody," she said.


The pic shows damage on the R/H side - unless of course, there are 2 holes......

This might explain:

Peter Gibson from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority says initial reports indicate a problem with the air pressure in the cabin.
"The pilot has some pressurisation warnings about a door on the left hand side of the aircraft, but exactly what went wrong is still being determined," he said.

Could there be 2 different areas of damage?

[Gear Down & Welded]

am listening to the BBC World Service. Thr reporter just aked a passenger.."how far did the aircraft plunge before the pilot regained control"

Why cant these idiots ask someone with knowledge before they open thire mouths?

On another note, have not heard much from GD..too busy adding up the bonus?

Should be a minimum qualification of PPL before you can comment or report on aviation matters....:ugh:

As for Lord Voldemort... he's working out how many more to lay off to pay for this and increase his bonus! :mad:

[StickWithTheTruth]

What a classic witty thread thus far. No theories, no assumptions and no smut :ok:

[Tankengine]

"I wonder what the Manilla allowances are these days!":ok:

[mr.tos]

Ahhh capt, did we cover this in the walk-around :}

[Howard Hughes]

When is the next shareholders meeting? Some of you learned shareholders might need to ask some pertinent questions!;)

[Acute Instinct]

Oh god, better mobilise the crisis unit? Why? Better ask the Exec Director of Engineering, it may be another xenophoblic event.

[Howard Hughes]

This is Qantas new aircraft, it is called the Mark V Comet...;)

[Anulus Filler]

"Lucky that big piece of swiss cheese blocked the hole!!":ouch:

[enemy commander]

for crying out loud -lets cut the jokes.this is a damn close run thing-
i am just glad every one got out of this alive-

we all know a lot questions will be asked -
1. IED?
2. OXY BOTTLE?
3. FATIGUE CRACKING?
4.THE CLOSURE OF H245 B744 HEAVY MAINT AND THE CONTRACTING OUT OF MAINT INCLUDING AVV.
5. MANAGEMENTS ROLL IN THIS

great work tech crew and cabin

[ReverseFlight]

I am booked to fly on QF30 soon, but at least I still have faith in Aussie pilot training. However, I'm not so sure about these 744s until the real cause is found - don't want to end up like Aloha in '88 or (worse) Valujet in the Florida Everglades in '96.

As my flight instructor would say: "Whoever worked on this aircraft also worked on the other ones too …"

[Cool banana]

More of a worry, a pax is quoted thus:

"I'm looking at the plane now and on the left hand side, just forward of the wing, there's a gaping hole from the wing to the underbody," she said.


That is was an passenger would say when they are looking at the aircraft from the terminal.

[Alex 009]

With one less 744 around for (lets assume) a few months, does this mean the classics will be around for a little longer...

By the way full credit to the crew:ok:

[Ngineer]

Maybe this is more of a question for a 744 Eng/Airframe LAME.

Maybe the wing to body fairing may have been loose enabling the airflow to rip it from the airframe. I noticed that the portion that is still intact is possibly tied to the airframe using tie-rods. Does the missing part also use tie-rods? If this is so, as the fairing seperated, maybe the tie-rod mounts damaged the pressurised area as they were pulled away (thus causing the explosive decompression). Seems strange that the fairing has come away clean (screws and all) on the fwd-most area.

[murrayatwell]

Well its been said by the ALAEA for a while now, that is that the system has been degraded to a point where a major incident was looming and that it was only a matter of time. The ALAEA were right unfortunately, thank GOD we did not lose that Hull, it’s about time the guardians of safety were shown a lot of respect and the incompetent people at the top responsible are held to task.

To the media, do you think the Australian public should be satisfied with paying a premium for a service that is flawed, let me see, 747 400’s VH OJO and VH OJQ staples in the Emergency Egress wiring, possible result pax unable to find path to exit in dark or smoke filled cabin. DO YOU EXPECT AN ORGANISATION TO BE PERFECT, well Sir the public do expect that from your organisation. VH OJM, 4 off Generator failure, aircraft has no power other than standby battery and is twenty to thirty minutes from ditching. Latest serious incident VH OJK, has major structural failure and is very lucky to land at all, check out the story about United’s door failure and how may pax ended up in number three engine. Very similar!

Please go and look at these incidents and talk to the people that maintain, or sorry, attempt to maintain the standard. No Geoff, the unions are not playing the safety card, your system is failing and you have forgotten or perhaps you never knew that safety is no accident.
:= :ugh:

[Clipped]

"Ladies and gentlemen - the reason your flight was delayed (descended) is because of the current LAMEs PIA and Go Slow campaign".

Whoops, one week too late .. bummer. Next excuse.

[Alex 009]

'That was one hell of a seagull!'

[stiffwing]

PW must be wondering what he's got himself into.I bet CM is thanking his lucky stars that his recent announcement gets him out of a huge mess.

[Howard Hughes]

Hey Muzzer take your vitriol and disdain for Geoff to the other 'serious' thread, we are having fun in here...;)

Once there, you may notice it has been pointed out that this aircraft is maintained in AUSTRALIA, albeit by contractors...:rolleyes:

[Cool banana]

we all know a lot questions will be asked -
1. IED?
2. OXY BOTTLE?
3. FATIGUE CRACKING?
4.THE CLOSURE OF H245 B744 HEAVY MAINT AND THE CONTRACTING OUT OF MAINT INCLUDING AVV.
5. MANAGEMENTS ROLL IN THIS



Also have to ask what was in that ULD (Cargo bin)- maybe an undeclared DG ?

Just have to standby and wait for the outcome..

[Howard Hughes]

If I had to bet on the cause, my money would be on undeclared Dangerous Goods in the hold...:eek:

[Millet Fanger]

Can't put too much credence in your 'possibility'. The rest of wing-to-body fairings stayed attached, they would have had plenty of airflow after the first one parted ship. Also the departure of the structure missing wouldn't have opened up one of the pax luggage cans as pictured.

[Green gorilla]

Good training and sticking to the book first words out of the captains mouth WHAT THE FCK WAS THAT.

[murrayatwell]

Good point, but I think you should learn to understand words, the system is failing. What matters is that the problems are identified and rectified. Not that you care.

[Ngineer]

Thanks Millet. I thought that if explosive decom is strong enough to collapse a floor of an airliner then it could easily suck some contents out of a ULD. Alot of ULD's loaded onboard are not well secured. There may also have been a pallet loaded on, or some empty space in the hold, allowing the ULD to have some contents sucked out. Either way, 8 psi diff escaping from that hole is alot of force.

[Big M]

"The Missus will kill me, she was adamant that I was never to bid for another Manilla trip"

:E :E

[tobzalp]

Have not read the thread but you will be pleased to know that as far as OZ ATC knew QFA30 was still coming as we had details that put the aircraft within the airspace then we called the Air Traffic Control Centre of Excellence in Indonesia who said 'Ummm whaaat? Whhhooo? We know nothing, we have no estimates for QFA30'

They did not pick up that the thing never showed up and our OZ flight data dudes tracked down the aircraft in Manilla.

Outstanding.

[wrobinsyd]

Not the old FOD that did it but the new meaning for FOD..FOD

Looks like a good insurance claim to me and a possible write off!

[worry-wort]

I wonder if VH-OJK will be one of the 22 aircraft QF will
"retire" due to the high cost of oil.

Another way of preventing a write-off perhaps?:O

[StickWithTheTruth]

Looking closely, no big deal really, just a fairing, may have actually been an oversized seagull if they go up to 30k ft that is.

[wrobinsyd]

Makes the bottom line look good.

A little hole thats all.... or air leak!

Its not a major problem just like a little water in the MEC.

Maintenance who needs it?

[P.O.M]

Quote:
where is the skin of the cargo container - and why has it ruptured?

The aluminium skin of the baggage containers is very thin and would be easily ruptured (ie blown apart) by the force of an oxy bottle letting go. The fuselage skin is much stronger but was no match for this force.

I thought with all the hieghtened security and anti-terror actions carried out in the last few years the luggage containers were supposed to be able to contain a small IED :confused: or are these stronger units, due to costs, 'optional extras' :}

Good work by all the onboard crew :D

[KING GEORGE II]

just got off the the net, and had some dialogue,but i''m told that this is a direct result of the bad behaviour of the qantas engineers

[worry-wort]

Gee I wonder if GD will mind retiring 1 more aircraft (due to the high cost of oil of course)

[thunderbird five]

Channel 10 report:

"Video from a passenger just in, showing the panic on board......."

Everyone seated calmly in the rubber jungle, one chick even still had her lunch tray in tact.


What some pilots will do to avoid flying through Australian TIBA...

[wrobinsyd]

Good news we only lost 3 percent

SAY NO MORE

EXCEPT

FOD FOD
:yuk:

[NSEU]

You just have to knock the top off an O2 cylinder and it will punch its way through concrete walls (that's without ignition). I really think you'd see far more damage if one let go.

Corrosion seems far more likely. How many skilled Sheeties and NDT experts left the company when Qantas shifted its 744 major maintenance from Sydney to Avalon?

Rgds
NSEU

[sky rocket]

Maybe it was hit by a wayward golf ball from a Bangkok driving range.:p

[wrobinsyd]

You just have to knock the top off an O2 cylinder and it will punch its way through concrete walls (that's without ignition). I really think you'd see far more damage if one let go.

Corrosion seems far more likely. How many skilled Sheeties and NDT experts left the company when Qantas shifted its 744 major maintenance from Sydney to Avalon?

Rgds
NSEU


You are right the monkey did it... and he knocked the top off the oxy bottle.

Just when they got rid of the banana dispenser in the flt deck..
:D

[The cougar]

Mr Spruce Goose, this is far from a joke. This is serious stuff! GD is to blame for putting foolish lower management into positions they have no idea about, and all they are taught is to cut costs. The ALAEA had direct communication with GD and when asked some questions he clearly had no idea! Lies by his minions. Do not ever take this current event as a joke it could have been horribly worse, i repeat horribly worse.

[I16]

Last time this frigging thing is going to be the pope's special return flight ...

[Keg]

Hey cougar, upperlobe and anyone else that keeps dragging this thread to the issue of QF management. If you really want to keep flogging this horse then there is a thread running on D&G Reporting Points where you can sound off to your hearts content and I and many others may even support you. :ugh:

However this thread was created for an entirely different reason. If you'd read the start of this thread instead of seeing it as yet another opportunity to get stuck into Geoff et al then perhaps you may have noticed this:

The big question is... what is the pilot thinking to himself, pictured here?

Who can think of the best caption?

So how about you blokes take your gripes to a thread where they're probably much more appropriate and leave this one for those of us who would also like to see the funny side of the piccie and poke crap at JB (the captain) along the way. What you guys have done isn't thread 'drift' but thread 'hijacking' and it's incredibly poor form. :rolleyes:

[The PM]

"Hello, Bunnings? I'd like to book for the in store demo on gap filling...."

[QFinsider]

The obvious part of this matter(other than the hole) is the incredible inability of the CEO to praise the actions of both the technical aircrew and the cabin crew. His acidity is sad to see.

It is one thing drilled into our pilots know your emergency descents, despite the continued encroachment of non operational cost cutters. Whoever was in the seat (both of them) did a great job...

It is for this sort of day that JB and indeed PW get paid theso called ridiculous amounts of money "management" claim..

1000km an hour and 30,000 feet is not supportive of human presence. Managing the risk is something not lost on aircrew, me included, everytime I see the faces file on and off aircraft.

The sooner we have managers with an operational background, the sooner we recognise the value of experience and close the chapter on this sad experiment Dixon has embarked upon, the safer we collectively will again become.

[SOPS]

There is a video on BBC NEWS | News Front Page (http://www.bbc.com/news)

[Miraz]

Well, that's one way to clear the blocked galley drains...

[urkidnme]

Those olympians better bring back the medals to repair this one!

[PyroTek]

Mr McClements said the faulty door was on the "driver's side" of the plane, just before the wing.

Mhm... :ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Far more exciting is the video nearby of the torpedo from HMAS Waller wallering that US destroyer. That is one big bang. :eek:

Well done to the QF crew.

[Spotlight]

Gear Down and welded. Good point! Does Peter Gibson have the bare minimum of a PPL?

A big peel off it looks to me. But then, I am over qualified.

[burna]

"You just have to knock the top off an O2 cylinder and it will punch its way through concrete walls (that's without ignition). I really think you'd see far more damage if one let go."

Well, not quite concrete but maybe a few sheets of aluminium.
YouTube - Scuba Tank - Valve Cut (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyINNUaXa8Q&feature=related)

Since when did the CASA media contact become the PR spokesman for Qantas?
News Video - 25-Jul-2008 (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200807/r275481_1163396.asx)
Gibson, I expect next you'll be next making appearances to assure the public that the ATC staffing crisis is nothing to be concerned about. :ok:
CASA, why don't you concentrate on you own business, Christ knows you have a hard enough time getting that right!
Oh...wait a minute...that's right...Qantas runs CASA.

[ejectx3]

Qf1 made the 19th hole, so this would be the 20th? :ouch:

[maxgrad]

I said I was going to have the curry, this is what happens when both drivers have the same thing!

[VBA Engineer]

After watching some of the onboard passenger videos, may I also say WELL DONE to the cabin crew for keeping the brave face and keeping both calm and confidence in the passengers. :D :D

All too often their role seems to be viewed as trolley dollies.

Regards,

An Engineer.

[Sunfish]

1. You won't see GD praising anyone except himself. He is a narcissist.

2. Not a bomb. No scorch marks, shrapnel damage, smoke in the cabin, fire and upwards failing floor of passenger cabin as well. An explosion is an overpressure event.

3. There is no way a fairing failure could have triggered this. Boeing's FMEA committee would have seen to that in the design phase.

4. Unless I'm mistaken, there is a chunk of skin in the middle of the hole that appears to be missing and is at the bottom of the China sea.

5. It will be interesting to see if this aircraft ever returns to service. I'm not sure it will considering the location of the hole, but what would I know?

[ling_woo]

Sounds like you have some theories Sunfish - care to share?

I think the corrosion issue is a strong one but it's too early to tell. We'll have to let time and the investigation play themselves out.

One's thing for sure, Geoffy boy's got another grey hair.

[VH-XXX]

I know there are shortages on raw metals at the moment overseas, but this is going a little far!

[Fris B. Fairing]

Fris, I think you are being to lenient and generous towards those purveyers of scribble that populate the so called news organisations.

tipsy

Maybe we should give them some credit because with this incident we have entered a new era of aviation reporting. Registration and Constructor's Number on the same page - and what's more, they match.

[Di_Vosh]

They got me out of crew rest for This? :}:}

[flying-spike]

"You reckon the wing root is stuffed, you should see the seat covers!"

[woollcott]

Concerning the future of the aircraft - it is a relative easy job. New skins, a few stringer splices and a few frame changes (all as per SRM 51 of course)
Problems will be lead time for parts from Boeing, and the lack of skilled sheeties, that have all long departed Qantas due to the usual reasons.
I expect the A/C to be grounded about 6-8 weeks.

[Roadrunner]

Speaking of Q and maintenance etc.

I was on QF168 row 38 on both sectors starting out on Thursday this week and noticed a rather loud and unusual noise below and just behind me not long after TO. I thought it might have been as the slats were moving into the fully retracted position. My other thought was that it was possibly an electric hydraulic pump seizing. The flight proceeded to CNS with nothing said.
On the second sector there was a similar sound but not quite as abrupt or loud and I think it was just as the slats retracted.
It's normal to hear weird sounds on the ground and in the air, in the airbus, however, having some experience in the front and back of the 76, I have not heard that sound before.

Anyone heard similar sounds from the 76?

Cheers

[Ngineer]

Whatever has happened here has been the result of a number of contributing factors. I doubt that a single mistake has been the cause of this incident. If there was a fairing failure (or oxy cyl, or corrosion), this would not have been solely due to a design flaw, but due to a series of events leading to this failure.

Design flaws from an aircraft manufacturer are not uncommon, hence the need for AD's and SB's. In fact some flaws have had devastating repurcussions in the past.

I'm not ruling anything out. Corrosion is a good possibility (door 2 right gets used alot on transit, and when it rains it's not uncommon for water to dribble down below the main deck).

I agree with another post about SYD heavy maint. This was closed down because GD stated we needed to vacate by 2009/2010. There are now plenty of rumors about this being leased to third party heavy maint MRO's. We lost a first class facility here for sure, very dissapointing.

[Going Boeing]

Roadrunner, the B767 main landing gear does not have any uplocks. When the pilots select the Gear Lever to "Off" after gear and flaps have been retracted, the MLG settles onto the MLG doors which do have locks. It is quite normal to hear/feel this especially if you are seated near the rear of the wings.

[vortsa]

I should get a bonus for diverting to Manila, labour is cheaper here.

[an3_bolt]

....nothing a few staples and a bit of 1000 mile per hour tape couldn't fix.....:p

[hewlett]

Roadrunner,

Possibly the Air Driven Hydraulic Demand Pump.Cuts in when hydraulic load is high such as when flaps and gear are retracting simultaneously.Located LHS immediately aft of wing.

[DutchRoll]

I think GB is quite right. Roadrunner, we can often feel the same clunk from the cockpit when the landing gear hydraulics are depressurised by putting the gear lever "off" immediately after the flaps finish retracting. You don't tend to notice it all the time though. Just a quirk of the 767.

I shouldn't speculate I suppose, but at least allow me to apply "Occams Razor": Old aeroplane with known corrosion issues. Hmmmm. Seems like corrosion/fatigue is really the most likely culprit.

The other theories are a bit out of left field (except for the oxy bottle one - certainly a possibility), but everything will be investigated, obviously.

[K9P]

I just want to give Billy Boeing a big kiss

[The Colonel Lives]

Looking at the photos I suppose we can all agree that we can see bags trying to force their way out of the hole. It would appear that the trigger that caused the the damage was sufficient to rupture the internal containers to allow this to happen or the trigger for the damage came from the containers maybe more likely. If corrosion did create enough fatigue for decompression then I personally have doubts that the container would have damaged. Extremely lucky that all that rush of air did not cause primary structure failure ie floorbeams. Usually damage can increase significantly when other objects are dragged out with the high pressure air. Looks like the bags did everyone a favour by partialy blocking the hole and / or stemming the flow of air exiting the aircraft. If oxy bottles in the area might of been a slow leak plus + spark = bang. Investigation will probably resolve all speculation tho.

[Ngineer]

Hey cougar, upperlobe and anyone else that keeps dragging this thread to the issue of QF management. If you really want to keep flogging this horse then there is a thread running on D&G Reporting Points where you can sound off to your hearts content and I and many others may even support you. :ugh:


Well said Keg!

PS: what were the pilots thinking? Thanks QF Management for all the cost cutting in engineering:}

Just kidding.

[Millet Fanger]

You are living in the past. QF don't need skilled and knowledgeable sheeties any more. There are 'amazing' new ways to tackle some of the problems that previously were left to QF engineering to rectify. Take a step onto the bridge of trust, peer through the FOG, look at other possibilities.

Back in the old days when smoking was allowed on a/c, pressurization problems didn't exist as the nicotine in the smoke would plug any holes in the airframe. Well it is no coincidence that just one month ago QF cabin crew were instructed to start selling duty free 'cancer sticks' again. Profit is all that matters, stuff the customer silly enough to buy them, get them to smoke on OJK and soon enough that hole in the side of the a/c will be plugged. Save a sh!tlo@d on those expensive sheeties as well.

[Islander Jock]

EFFO, get onto engineering and see if we can fly this as a permissable unserviceablity.

[rodney rude]

Manilla??? Why he go Manilla???

We would have go Melbourne no problem. We get there. It just little hole. Wooses.

Capt Hu Jin Rude
Air China

[BigGun]

Well, not quite concrete but maybe a few sheets of aluminium.
YouTube - Scuba Tank - Valve Cut (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyINNUaXa8Q&feature=related)

The gauge on that tank seems to reed around 330 psi the ones on the ac are alot bigger and have a minimum pressure of 1800psi @20degC

[burna]

Qantas passengers arrive in Melbourne - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/26/2315254.htm)

"Steve Winchester was a passenger on the plane and says aside from the exterior damage, a hole opened up on the cabin floor."

Could this be a floor vent to stop floor from collapsing?

[Wod]

"Well bugger me!"


(As an aside; a number of people on this and other threads keep trying to put this aircraft in Manilla. Manilla can be found in NSW well to the left of the HKG-MEL track)

[geoffrey thomas]

BTW GD did praise the crew in several releases but that has not been picked up by the media as yet.
Best
Geoffrey Thomas
Air Transport World

SYDNEY, 25 July: Qantas has arranged for a replacement aircraft to fly to Manila tonight to collect the passengers from QF30, which was diverted earlier today en route from Hong Kong to Melbourne.
The replacement Qantas B747 aircraft is scheduled to depart Manila shortly after 11pm local time and is due to arrive in Melbourne on Saturday morning.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the airline was sending an investigation team including Qantas engineering personnel to Manila tonight to carry out an investigation.
Mr Dixon praised the pilots and cabin crew for the way they handled the incident.
“This was a highly unusual situation and our crew responded with the professionalism that Qantas is known for,” he said.

[relax737]

Colonel, I tend to agree. If the container is ruptured/torn, then the force required to do that must surely have come from within indicating explosion possibly caused by DG's.

I don't see a rush of air past the container causing it to fail; it may be that there is damage to the other side as well, and then the damage may well have been caused by an outrush of air taking the path through the container.

Width only small pics to see the damage, it is difficult, if not impossible, to make any sort of determination.

I hope it can be tracked back to maintenance, or lack of, for the engineers sakes. The reasons are twofold; if it wasn't a maintenance issue then they have egg on their faces over their claims that QF mgt are at fault over outsourcing services, if it is,then they look good and have a case for what they're chasing.

And yes, any sort of credit from the CEO was conspicuous by its absence, although it's what we train for every few months, and is public credit due?

[Awnick]

" i thought pterodactyl's were meant to have TCAS"

[burna]

I don't see a rush of air past the container causing it to fail; it may be that there is damage to the other side as well, and then the damage may well have been caused by an outrush of air taking the path through the container.

You're forgetting that the air inside the container is at the same pressure as the cargo hold, so when the cargo hold decompresses the container also has to decompress rapidly or it will burst.
My understanding is those containers are not designed to hold pressure.

[horserun]

"With a bit of luck this wont be the only hole in Manila I will climbing into":E

[7feet]

From the limited photos available, I cannot make out any suggestion of a torn edge from the baggage ULD. Also from the photos it would appear the baggage is still neatly stacked, I would have thought that most of the baggage would have been sucked out and now at the bottom of the sea.
Maybe what we are seeing in the photos is pallet loaded baggage, restrained by netting.

[HotDog]

QF InsiderThe obvious part of this matter(other than the hole) is the incredible inability of the CEO to praise the actions of both the technical aircrew and the cabin crew. His acidity is sad to see.


SunfishYou won't see GD praising anyone except himself. He is a narcissist


Geoffrey Thomas
Air Transport WorldBTW GD did praise the crew in several releases but that has not been picked up by the media as yet.


Would an apology be in order?:rolleyes:

[NSEU]

Well, not quite concrete but maybe a few sheets of aluminium.

The bottle in the video seems to be much smaller than the 747 bottles, but irrespective, there has been an incident where a bottle has put holes in several concrete walls before coming to a rest in the street outside.

The pax O2 sidewall bottles are mounted "up/down". The hole looks like it's inboard/outboard.

Rgds.
NSEU

[VH-Cheer Up]

I didn't think the cargo containers were even the slightest bit sealed, so they would likely decompress about as fast as the external environment (i.e.the hold).

The question still not really answered is whether those bags seen trying to abandon ship were actually in a baggage container, or were they loose, or netted?

I thought everything went into a container on 74s. If so, what broke the container?

[Redstone]

Hmmm, corrosion? I'm not 100% convinced yet. A corrrosion problem in that area would have probably been along the production "lap joint" where one sheet plate coming down the side of the fuse overlaps the next continuing on down, or perhaps where some sheer ties or stringers attach to the frames and skin. Very unusual (read never seen it myself) for corrosion to just appear all by itself out in the open on the inside of the fuse like that. I would expect that if the lap joint in that regon of the fuselage were the suspect, then there would not be a hole, but perhaps it would have opened up Aloha style, like a zipper.

[Long Bay Mauler]

I just saw the American ABC news footage.

Good to see the hosties continue with a drinks service with portable oxygen bottles on!!!!I am sure everyone deserved a drink.

Now thats the spirit.:ok:

[NSEU]

"I thought everything went into a container on 74s."

Not everything. You can have netted cargo, live animals, cars, etc...

Re explosive decompression...

I think people are failing to realise how much force is on the fuselage at altitude. With a differential pressure of say, 8psi (8lbs on one square inch), on a square metre of fuselage skin, that's about 12,400 lbs of force.. i.e. about 5 and a half metric tonnes (someone check my calculations, please :P).

Rgds.
NSEU

[burna]

I didn't think the cargo containers were even the slightest bit sealed, so they would likely decompress about as fast as the external environment (i.e.the hold).
We're talking about one of these, right?
Dimerco - your china logistics specialist (http://www.dimerco.com/dimerco/en/container.asp)

Has sides on it.

Capacity is 14,300 litres. With the hold going from something like 10.9 psi to 4.3 psi that container suddenly contains something like 36245 litres extra of air.
ie. Is under 6.6 psi o pressure.

This air has to escape through the small gaps around the doors of the container almost instantly, i it can't then it will blow th container out somewhere.

NB. Sums done in a rush, may be off a bit.

This is my understanding, have been wrong once or twice tho'. Just the once or twice mind!

[Redstone]

I have seen frame webs cracked through before, and sheer ties cracked through, just thinking out loud after looking at that picture again that it would have had to have been multiple structural failure over quite a sizable area, all load paths are redundant, and a 747 airframe is built very strong. I dont ever remember seeing suitcases loaded loose on a pallet, crayfish ard mangoes yes..... but not suitcases.

The ULD's are usually half size cans, and do not have "doors" that seal, just a canvas flap that has pins to lock it "closed" if hold was full then cans would have been close to butting up against each other, I still reckon something would have had to "breach" the skin of the can.

[mypilot]

This incident reminds me of a similar incident of Aloha Airlines flight 243 on the 28th April 1988 where they had a larger explosive decompression.

Wasn't that due to ignoring corrosion of the air frame?

Maybe Qantas had exceeding the number of the cycles on the plane or are not servicing the plane fully to save money?:=

[leffe]

Whats the name of Qantas' new 747?


The manilla folder!!.....:D

[digiteyes]

OEE was first registered 31 Oct 2002

Our current 'youngest' 744 is OEJ (Wunala Dreaming) 16 may 2003

[Major-Domo]

The hole is in the wing root area of the starboard wing. Looks like it could have been an explosion or metal fatigue from the way the metal is curved outwards.

[relax737]

I hear what others say about the container being pressurized the same as the hold environment, but the containers I'm familiar with aren't even close to airtight. They have ripstop type material sides with clips/bungee type fixings holding the sides taut.

I may be wrong, and whilst the interior of a container is at the same pressure as the hold, I couldn't see one of those containers depressurizing and causing damage to its skin. I could see the fixing allowing the sides to flex out and allow air to escape though. One would assume that if one container is damaged as in the picture, then all will be similarly damaged.

Pure speculation on my part though, as it is on the parts of those who post here on this incident.

[DEFCON4]

When did this aircraft have its last D check and where was it carried out?
Was it done in Australia or OS?

[teresa green]

It looks like part of a container at the top of the picture, and the fairing has come away very cleanly at the bottom. A explosion of some sort? Just speculation of course. What will be certain that the company will run the great witch hunt so the top of the ladder have a scrapegoat. Once more QF survives a tragedy, how do they do it?:ooh:

[P.O.M]

DEFCON4
From BBC News - BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Engineers 'had fears over plane' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7526637.stm)


A Qantas spokeswoman has confirmed that the plane did go through maintenance checks at the facility mentioned on the forum, but that "nothing out of the ordinary was detected during the checks".

"The most recent maintenance check on this aircraft were for a 'D' [most thorough] check in Qantas's Sydney facility in 2004 and two 'C' [regular] checks in Qantas's facility in 2006 and 2008," she said.

If the containers do have open sides with sash straps it may explain the look of the luggage looking like its falling out a tumble drier...

I wonder how this one will be blamed on the rising cost of oil/fuel??... :}

[LAME2]

The hole is in the wing root area of the starboard wing. Looks like it could have been an explosion or metal fatigue from the way the metal is curved outwards.


Botton edge appears straight. All other edges ragged and bent/torn.
Why is that so Proffessor?

Following an explosion all edges would have been ragged/torn and burn/heat marks apparent.

Baggage not scorched or burnt. No heat apparent in this incident

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/galleries/1304999/0142318150085.jpg

[Trojan1981]

Not going to speculate on cause, Just a well done to the crew for doing what they are trained to do and showing spectacularly why they deserve to be paid so well.

Captain was John Bartells, apologies if already posted.

How Capt John Bartels saved a Qantas jumbo | Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24079908-2862,00.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/trojan1981/JohnBartels200XQantasCaptainA4G-.jpg

[blurter8]

It is speculation, and i repeat only speculation that CEO Gerff Dixon has been treated with Oxygen after actually aknowledging the outstanding efforts of both Technical Crew and Cabin Crew in this nasty incident. It is speculation in spectacular form that Gerff was actually able to speak of employees of his Company in such a glowing, warm fuzzy manner. It is strongly thought that following a dose of the old 02 that Gerff will actually
retract his comments and forcefully deny the spoken acollades.
Once again, speculation only at this point.
Stay tuned!

[relax737]

Well it seems that either TJ's knowledge hasn't grown since he last flew a 747 or it may be the reporting.

6 minutes from 29,000 to 10,000??? Seems like an awfully long time for an emergency descent. 3-4 minutes would have been an outside figure.

'All they would have known is that there was a hole in the aircraft somewhere"?? Well I could agree with a significant leak, but not necessarily a hole.

Of course, we have to allow for the reporting, and only some of what has been reported, or even none at all, may have actually been said.

The 'terrified, screaming' passengers would have know exactly what was wrong, like the one who reported that the 'undercarriage had ruptured"!!!

[Transition Layer]

How Capt John Bartels saved a Qantas jumbo | Herald Sun

....Yesterday, Capt Bartels and his co-pilot, Werninghaus Bernd, had less than a minute to launch an emergency drill that saved all aboard Qantas Boeing VH-OJK.....



What about Wacky the S/O in the crew rest? I'm sure he was working hard too!!! haha

And it's Bernie Werninghaus, not the other way round...

[RYAN TCAD]

JB says...

"God damn - i gotta dump my shares in Qantas fast! Hmmm, come to think of it, i need a dump too"!

[BBJ flying spanner]

Fair go fellas if you have ever used and been part of any engineering in third party maintenance organisations i would listen intently to your mutterings. But as i suspect you may not. Well i have and i have every respect for the guys in these facilities, whether by choice due to a layoff or just trying get the bucks as an expat they provide a service that is very professional. The maintenance of the aircraft leaving the facility is only as good as the customer team doing the supervising of the aircraft and being clear on the expectations that is required.
I have been involved with various overseas MRO's throughout Europe for 5 years and never had an issue with the quality of work from these facilities.
I have met ex QF LAMES around the world (currently on 100.00usd an hour which is a little bit more than the 40.00usd an hour that you get at QF) who are very experienced and all say the same thing the best thing they ever did was leave QF.
I am saying you are barking up the wrong tree with an attack on overseas MRO's who have been given approvals by the local regulatory authority plus CASA and the operators QA.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers
EX QF LAME of 20 years

[DutchRoll]

That might be true in some cases BBJ, but a LAME I spoke to just the other day told me that one frame we recently got back from overseas maintenance (SE Asia) was a bucket of sh*t.

Then he spent quite some time detailing exactly why (like, exactly what items they'd missed or hadn't done properly, and what had to be re-done in Sydney), until I told him to please stop.

So I don't doubt that it's true that some MROs overseas are great - in fact I'm certain the majority are. However I don't think we're always sending our jets to those ones! We're sending them to the cheapest ones. And like my trusty electrician says: "buy it cheap, buy it twice".

[SRM]

From experience very good Capt and a very nice guy.

[Ngineer]

Fair go fellas if you have ever used and been part of any engineering in third party maintenance organisations i would listen intently to your mutterings. But as i suspect you may not.

Mate, these are the same mutterings that we hear from QF Engineering management, some of whom have never turned a spanner on an aircraft. I remember working in heavy maint syd when we used to do alot of customer contract work. We got to see the condition of other operators coming in for a 'd' check. The difference was amazing to say the very least. Our Classics were in prestine condition compared to theirs. The same could be said about working customers on the line.

Qantas did not get it's immaculate safety record by chance, which is what I interpret people as saying when they pass off Qantas Engineering as just another MRO. Every person I have met who has made this comment has never worked in Sydney Heavy when it was around. I have, and yes I have worked in other overseas MRO's.

I am not peronally attacking overseas MRO's when I state this, just defending Arthur Baird's legacy.

[RYAN TCAD]

The other saying Dutchroll is - 'you get what you pay for!'

Bo!

[flyinggit]

Over 200 posts after just a couple of days, voyeurism perhaps? We humans are a species that love to 'watch'


FG

[relax737]

BBJ, you make good points, and they are not lost on me.

I've been part of a few SE Asian airlines over a lot of years, and when their maintenance is done by organizations other than their own, they send their own engineers, and the work is supervised and signed off by those engineers.

I have seen some damned good maintenance come out of those orgnizations, as well as some ordinary maintenance. The standard delivered was directly related to the standard of the airline's own maintenance and their own engineers!

Do QF not send engineers to supervise their maintenance by third party maintenance organizations?? If so, then QF engineers must accept some responsibility, unless of course it was totally unrelated to maintenance, and than can be the case with corrosion.

My contention is still that it originated in a baggage container, so let's see.

Re QF's safety record Ngineer, we won't mention Bangkok.

Thank you for your kind words in the following post QF Insider. Seldom does a maintenance F*** up manifest itself in such a noticeable way as this incident, but there are many, so even though there are those who contend that QF's safety record is due to maintenance, that can hardly be said with any authority.

As an aside, I contribute to a few other forums, music and model aircraft flying mostly, and never does anybody call another an idiot regardles of how stupid their post seems.

Perhaps you could do with anger counselling.

And no matter how much one attempts to put the blame on cost cutting, management policies, or causes other than the flightcrew in the BGK incident, if those up front had put it on the ground where it should have been on the ground, then it would have stopped. That is inarguable, even if they had reverse on three and full power on one, even with the shortened runway.

[QFinsider]

is fine to mention bangkok you idiot in repsect to a systemic failure...Maintainence had no part to play in the golf course. Was confined to idiot cost cutting and the actions/omissions from a flight crew...


Oh and the only reason they are reporting that p*i%# Dixon is horrified is that;

1. APA hadn't bought QF allowing him to paprachute out before it all fell apart.
2. The tool can't exercise his optikons when the rest of the market realises how lucky QF was AGAIN!

[Going Boeing]

Posted by Bug-a-lugs

Good to see the hosties continue with a drinks service with portable oxygen bottles on!!!!I am sure everyone deserved a drink.

Now thats the spirit.

If you are familiar with airline operations, you'd be aware that following a decompression and below 14,000' the flight crew will order cabin crew to "commence follow up duties". If you are aluding to the same bit of footage that I saw, the aircraft was in level flight at 10,000' and the flight attendants were carrying out the required duties in a very professional manner. :ugh:

[Ngineer]

Relax feel free to talk about BKK if you wish (QF engineering was up there putting it back together), and as I said before those that play down Qantas engineering are usually those that have never turned a spanner on an aircraft or worked in Sydney Heavy. 9 times out of ten they are manager's who are trying to justify shutting it down and outsourcing. I can only share what I have seen.:rolleyes:

[flyer_18-737]

Thoughts on if it should be scrapped????

[IAW]

Easily repairable...won't be scrapped.

[Captain Marvel]

The Captains name has been mentioned, but what about the First Officer and Third Pilot - relief Capt? Would like to see their names also up in lights as no doubt it is was a sterling crew effort.

Also congrats to the cabin crew for a job well done - from passenger reports in the media you did a great job!

I hope Geoff Dixon personally congratulates you all!

[Trojan1981]

:ok:The Captains name has been mentioned, but what about the First Officer and Third Pilot - relief Capt? Would like to see their names also up in lights as no doubt it is was a sterling crew effort.

Also congrats to the cabin crew for a job well done - from passenger reports in the media you did a great job!

Sounds like they all did a very professional job.

[virgindriver]

Qantas Corporate Insider of Mascot. You are 100% incorrect. Knowing one of the guys who was instrumental in returning OJH to the fleet I know for a fact that the repair job was significantly cheaper than the used value for the airframe let alone a new replacement airframe.
Posted by: Keg of Sydney 5:12pm July 25, 2008
Comment 101 of 142

I seem to see this name every forum I visit!

[AEROMEDIC]

(Dixon) "Thanks for your efforts..............and here's your 3%


:ugh::ugh::ugh:":ugh:

[relax737]

NGineer, do QF engineers supervise maintenance done by external engineering facilities?? Do they sign off that maintenance on completion?

Honest answer required please.

I'm not attempting to put engineers down; I believe they are underpaid and deserve better, but do they supervise that overseas maintenance?

Trojan, you're right. The other crew members should be mentioned in dispatches. I dont think for a second that any of them are heroes, merely doing their jobs, (and they were well done) but no mention of them is implying that the Captain did it all alone, and that is quite obviously not the case.

[QFinsider]

Dixon could not personally say anything to any of the crew.

I will fall over if he does, he possesses neither the humanity, humility nor personality to speak to anyone face to face....

I hope he does go and shake all their hands.
That is the Captain, F/O and S/O (or 2) and indeed ALL the cabin crew. To do that would mean "engaging" with the staff. The Oldmeadow playbook doesn't allow a thank you to staff....

[QFinsider]

Oh and for those that don't know, it may well have been an S/O flying with either of the other two in the other seat. Given their distance from Hong Kong, I suspect either the Captain or the F/O were in the crew rest(which is on the flight deck but a distance away from the control seats) ...Perhaps the as yet unnamed S/O deserves a pat on the back too :ok:


As to Bangkok, The ATSB report identifies the systemic failures including the cost cutting measures, inadequate definition relating to pilot flying/ not flying roles and the actions of the pilot not flying. The aircraft itself was in fact serviceable. We were lucky then, we were lucky on QF2 and we were lucky here. Joburg is along way depressurised.........

[soldier of fortune]

FLY NAVY

GOOD WORK JB AND CREW :ok:

[baffler15]

Qantas Wallabies beat the All Blacks 34-19........

At least the money that Qantas is spending on the Australian rugby team is paying off!

[stiffwing]

If the incident occurred north / abeam of Manila, then the s/o would almost certainly been on his/her break.(s/o normally gets first break in a 3 "man" crew, certainly with QF) I'm sure he/he would have done a sterling job if part of the crew on watch at the time.
I have no doubt JB and BW would have done it beautifully.. Is the RPLL 06 ILS still out?

[fatcat69]

"did you see that flack gun over singapore!!!, they really hate Dixon too"



How much did it cost our brand to see 4 kids crying with the wife looking on with tears and the father say I thought I was going to die...

Ill tell you......500 times what these fools saved by closing and destroying the foundations of a once great airline. But dont worry they spent $500M last year on ads detailing the service our customers dont get because all the service staff are pissed off and the proud history that no longer exists due to foolish cost cutting.

Thats two close calls now, god bless all those that fly and lets hope they can keep our customers safe because there are hundreds of little latent failures now built in just waiting for the cheese to line up.

Cox on TV looked like a scared rabbit, wish his family was onboard so he could see what it all really means. 11km up is a long way down!!!!

[woollcott]

Have supervised numerous O/S maint checks.

Unfortunately, 2 or 3 QF engineers cannot possibly watch every bloke doing every task. You would also be surprised at the amount of work that gets done in the wee hours...............

[teresa green]

The skipper's had enough shocks without shaking Chicken Littles hand. Top performance from all the crew. And from my LAME son, he doubts fatigue (he is engine and airframe) despite all our complaints heavy engineering in QF has been spot on, he maintains a Phase Check would have picked that problem up re corrosion (which it does all the time) and even though QF gives him the Sh#ts he reckons they are still one of the best operators going around. Time will tell.

[Metro man]

Does the 744 have panels between the baggage compartment and the cabin designed to fail in the event of a sudden decompression ? Allows the pressure to equalise quickly rather than buckle the cabin floor.

[Farman Biplane]

Haven't had the time to check thru the 12 pages to see if it has been asked.

Was this aircraft the one that was repaired and returned to service after the Bangkok overun accident?

[F.Nose]

"What the hell was Santa doing flying around at this time of the year?"

[Going Boeing]

Was this aircraft the one that was repaired and returned to service after the Bangkok overun accident?

No - and what's the relevance?

QF1 BKK overrun VH-OJH
QF2 Bkk AC electrics failure VH-OJM
This Event VH-OJK

[Centaurus]

Interesting to find out if the emergency descent was conducted at high speed or low speed. General advice in Boeings general is to descend at the IAS that was current if structural damage is suspected. In other words if the aircraft is still in one piece after the initial structural failure, then it will probably stay that way providing you don't exceed that speed significantly in a dive. Usually means gear down to keep the rate of descent high and the IAS low.

[wessex19]

John B. Great job. If you at all ever get on this site or anyone who is friends with him does, could you get him to PM me as one of his old CO's (who is in our sub branch) from his navy days would like to say g'day. I was having a quiet beer with him this afternoon chatting about what happened and he asked me to pass on the message if i could.

also; move over Kevin, Robbie Deans for PM:D

[NSEU]

Does the 744 have panels between the baggage compartment and the cabin designed to fail in the event of a sudden decompression ? Allows the pressure to equalise quickly rather than buckle the cabin floor.

not designed to fail.. designed to work :} There are panels held in with springs and pop out if there is a pressure difference.. They are re-usable.

They can be annoying when you lean on one by mistake during maintenance... thankfully not large enough to fall through :O

Rgds.
NSEU

[Capt Kremin]

QFInsider, all of the Qantas heavies have phoned JB to thank him. Dixon and Borghetti included.

[LapSap]

You've alluded to the fact that the recovery was not quite as straight forward as it might have been. Care to expand on that?
Given that they were only an hour or so into a 9 hour flight with 350 pax, I take it they've landed significantly over MLW. Any damage to the LE flaps?

[The Voice]

If I may ask a question which is NOT in anyway meant to be inflamatory - if the acft was so close to the DEP point, other than obviously being overweight, is there a reason why it didn't land there when able rather than continue on over the briney?

[Fris B. Fairing]

But dont worry they spent $500M last year on ads detailing the service our customers dont get because all the service staff are pissed off and the proud history that no longer exists due to foolish cost cutting.
fatcat69

Not to mention the fortune they gave some outsider to come up with a grotesquely deformed clone of the flying kangaroo and a similarly deformed corporate logotype. What did that achieve? Change to create the illusion of progress.

[vortsa]

If I may ask a question which is NOT in anyway meant to be inflamatory - if the acft was so close to the DEP point, other than obviously being overweight, is there a reason why it didn't land there when able rather than continue on over the briney?

Simple answer to that question..... maintenance repairs are cheaper in Manila.

The truth is that it doesn't matter where the aircraft went the repairs will be done by the Boeing recovery team. Any major repair that is outside the SRM and will probably require re-jigging the fuselage and major structures is done by manufacturer. They don't want to do a repair and then find the aircraft requires more trim to fly straight.
Can recall an Ansett DC-9 once had a major corrosion repair in top fuselage and after that the crew found it difficult to land with out lots of elevator/stab trim.
Don't expect to see it in the air for at least a few months.

[ampclamp]

Congrats to the frankly stupid guesswork and speculation that has led to the "rust bucket" headlines.it was lifted from an on-line forum be it here or elsewhere.
I'm the first to comment and criticize where necessary but providing hacks with this sort of poorly researched, uneducated & very damaging headline helps nobody.

[austnav]

Surely if it was any other Australian airline, CASA would've grounded the fleet in question by now.

I bet the goverment will not let that happen, How sure "Absolutely":suspect:

[A. Le Rhone]

From Today's Fairfax press (apologies if already posted):

Aviation writer Ben Sandilands said Qantas and its passengers were lucky the disaster happened near an airport. "If it had happened on some other Qantas routes we'd be reporting that they were sending the warships out to pick up the bodies."

Where do these muppets come from? Why are they allowed to make such unchallenged statements of complete effluent?

[bekolblockage]

is there a reason why it didn't land there when able rather than continue on over the briney?

Unfortunately, as soon as you depart Hong Kong towards Oz you are heading "over the briney".
Incident occured beyond the HK FIR boundary which extends to about 220NM to the SE of HK and they would have been closer to Manila by that stage.

[brakepac]

The holes are definitely starting to line up.
The longer we go without an incident the closer we are to catastrophe.
I fear that we are too close now and soon there will be a black hole in the ground with a red tail sticking out of it. :(
GD, DC, PG & co can you now see that this airline game is not about greedy profit, it is about integrity and long jeapordy of aircraft maintenence and keeping and nurturing the experience on shore.

Cut the profit and keep the reputation and safety intact.
Roadshows, lean sigma, safety obeservations, housekeeping, joint working committees, amazing people and all that other bulls**t you ram down our necks day in day out doesn't mean s**t when the families of 350 dead pax will be asking why did this have to happen........?

[Qantas 787]

ampclamp (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/260520-ampclamp) - that is the part of this story which is really getting to me........the media. They have absolutely no idea and quote people with thier own agenda such as union leaders and some guy from a website. :*

The media's coverage of this story is nothing short of disgraceful. 5% of it is facts, the rest is them speculating and reporting blatant errors (like the aircraft was the same the one the Pope was on). Then they come up with thier own "theories" and run with them. The "Rust Bucket" front line was pathetic. The media don't hate to answer to anyone and know nothing about aviation. In saying that, the name "Qantas" seems to send reporters into a frenzy as they try to put as many phrases like "terrified passengers", "feared for thier lives" etc into thier story. They want to drag the name of the airline through the mud at every opportunity.

Once again, well done to crew for thier efforts, especially JB. Why the media were camped out in front of his home yesterday, I will never know.

[Capt Kremin]

The details of the situation that the crew were faced with will come out in due course. The SMH already has part of the story, no autopilots. Everything was hand flown from the beginning of the incident. There were other serious system failures which occurred simultaneously with the depressurisation.

Any intimation that the crew went to Manilla due to cost considerations is so far off the mark as to not dignify with a response. It was simply the closest major airport.

[packrat]

1.Pax Oxygen bottle located in the vicinity of the hole in the airframe is missing.
2.Locking handle on R2 Door was in vertical position(not horizontal).
Speculation is that the Oxygen bottle exploded and punched a hole in the skin

[Keg]

Kremin, I haven't read that report but obviously written by a journo who hasn't thought about where he or she would like to land if they had a hole that size in the aeroplane! :ugh: :rolleyes: :mad:

[neville_nobody]

The smh article was another beatup. 'Pilot lands in instinct' etc etc. How about paying some credence to all the sim training that gets done to prepare pilots for such events. The author makes out that this was the first time the guy had hand flown an aircraft :rolleyes:

Apparantly Ray Hadley had it on good authority that the pope had flown in this aircraft and was happy to broadcast this fact. :ugh:

Pilot relies on skill to land crippled jumbo - Travel - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pilot-landed-on-instinct/2008/07/26/1216492803343.html)

[Qantas 787]

Quote: "Apparantly Ray Hadley had it on good authority that the pope had flown in this aircraft and was happy to broadcast this fact."

Hadley is an idiot. He regularly doesn't do research before getting on his high horse. Most of the media also seem to think the same thing because "Longreach" is on the side. :ugh::*:E The media's lack of knowledge and understanding of aviation is embarassing.

[Capt Kremin]

The article is indeed crap, but journalists obviously believe we always land aircraft by "pushing a button" anyway. By remarking that the crew landed manually, they inadvertantly cottoned on to one of the systems failures (one of many) that this crew encountered.

[Stationair8]

Congratulations on a job well done by the crew of QF30.

Its a pity that the dumb journalist's and other media muppets don't have to go under rigorous training every year to maintain their qualifications!

Watched three different news reports on Saturday night, not one got anything factually correct or near the truth. For example the Alohoa airlines accident that they all quoted happened in 1998, 1975 and 1999, and the aircraft involved was a B747, B727 and aging airliner. I thought 1988 was the year and a Boeing B737.

Another journalist quoted the pilot used instinct to descend the aircraft, another said the pilot contacted authorities and asked for advice. Yet another raised concerns about rust being the cause.

ABC had some British aviation expert quoting that it wasn't a terrorist attack, one must be a bloody expert if you can be in Britain and look at media footage and determine the cause!

[The Voice]

Thanks Bekol .. my misconception that the incident happened closer to Honkers ..

[AN Flyer]

I'd bet that management would buy a new aircraft and change regos and still say they had never had a hull loss. Wasn't the Bangkok incident a write off?

What, and ruin the perfect (Jet) safety record? - No no, VH-OJH is still flying ;-)

[Metro man]

not designed to fail.. designed to work

Thanks NSEU, that's a better way of putting it. :)

Anyone know the website that's being quoted on SKY News ? The one where the engineer warns of corrosion and GD denies everything.

[griffin one]

Second guessing the three pilots decision to divert to manilla is an easy attack while pruners sit at their laptops(shame on you all). Also shame on all the so called lames and wanna be investigators with the trumped up theories of what went wrong. "Rustbucket headline" just about shows why everyone should keep their traps shut until the investigation is complete.
The only response to this INCIDENT,should be well done to the professional crew for doing what Qantas has trained them to do, and for handling the the situation.Well done to the slf for keeping cool.Maybe its about time we looked at the positives instead of bashing a brand.

[stoned philosopher]

This is fact. Just last week someone noticed that an oxygen bottle about to be fitted to a 744 had been freighted in from Hong Kong. It raises the question if they are now being overhauled in Asia, not suggesting at all that there might be a quality issue.

Stoned P :zzz:

[brakepac]

Here we go again ,Typical uneducated media idiots reporting on something they know nothing about.
I heard one reporter on Friday night state that a large hole had blown out of the undercarriage of the aircraft........

GIVE ME A BREAK you flogstick

[Matt-YSBK]

Oxygen bottle question ?
What do they make the Oxygen bottle's out of for the 747. I have no large jet experience but in smaller aircraft i have seen Steel, Aluminium even a composite type bottle. In any case i would guess these bottles are rated for many 100's of times more pressure then they are filled to. Just thinking of gas cylinders in general they are overengineered (that's why you don't see some ones bbq exploding ever weekend) Usually when you hear of some sort of trouble relating to a gas bottle some one has knocked it over or hit it or some such and the valve has sheared off. I could imagine something like this happening then it would blow of with some force and could puncher the skin with the valve. The corresponding fluid hammer of the explosive decompression would tear the skin to the tear strips (as designed) and that front faring would get blown of by the escaping air. But something serious would surely have to have happened to the bottle. It's not the movies. They don't just explode. I would suggest even if they had not been checked for 25 years and had corrosion all over them.

Sorry I rambled. What where the bottles made of ?
And what is the orientation of the bottle in the hold. (is the valve at the top is it on the wall lying down with the valve facing the rip in the skin. is there a collar around the valve is it steal)

[preset]

When the incident occurred the aircraft was approx 300nm from MNL which was definitely the closest airport. I know that for a <fact> so no more speculation on this point pls. Aircraft was dumping fuel en route to MNL as you would expect, don't know what weight he landed at.
For info ILS 06 is still out of service but rwy 24 was in use at the time. MNL offered QF30 either rwy for landing as soon as they were in radio contact but don't know which one he actually used.
It was all handled very nicely by the crew :D

[Islander Jock]

Just been reading some of the MSN stories on this. :yuk:
They really master the art of whipping up the ignorant into a frenzy and keeping them there.