Is my flying school being a little unfair?

[Nathan1986]

Hi everybody, Im Nathan, i have recently started to learn to fly. I have been taking lesson towards my PPL, I have been saving and saving to get myself in a position where im able to afford it. Now i knew from day one that flying is an expensive hobby/career path.

I visited my flying school last week for a lesson i had previously arranged, the lesson was at 9am and was the first of the day. which made me unable to contact them before i set off to query the weather situation. I arrived and after speaking with the person involved with taking payments and organising lessons at the reception desk, she told me to go and have a chat with my instructor. We chatted for about 20 mins. he was giving me tips and advice and areas i could improve my flying.

I returned home and thought very little of it. A week later i returned and went for a lesson in the air with my instructor, i know the price of my lessons are £130 per hour. When i landed i was informed that id actually been 70 minutes, 10 minutes over my arranged time and was liable to pay an extra £21 for the time i went over, she also said i forgot to ask you for the payment of £30 for the groundschool i recieved last week. I was'nt made aware i was going to be paying for my chat with my instructor and was a little frustrated as i am flying on a strict budget as most of us are. I guess what i find worse is that i have read nearly all of the groundschool books back to front, over and over. So the £30 i spent on groundschool i actually gained nothing from. I did not have the extra money with me at the time and was told to bring it to my next lesson.

I guess really i just want to know if this sort of situation is common practice and i just need to make allowances or as my dad keeps telling me "they've had my pants down"

Thanks for your advice guys

Nathan

(also it was my instructor who kept track of time, and there was no traffic)

[Lawn Mower]

Tell them where to stick it!

30 quid for a twenty minute briefing. They are taking the piss.

[BigGrecian]

Flight time they are perfectly entitled to make you pay for.

The ground briefing seems a little excessive at PPL level - unless they mentioned it upfront. Bare in mind there is minimum ground school time required (Note this will be for approval of course not necessarily in LASORS) and most schools charge for this in the brief/debrief time. If it was post flight and pointed out errors/good points/way to improve your flying then it is a genuine service as part of a flight instruction and generally you should expect to pay for it.

[Nathan1986]

Thanks for the advice, im in a no win situation i feel, if i was to question it i would feel awkward flying with these people, and on the other hand ive only had a few lessons, the start of this month i ayed £130 just to join the club, so i could be stubborn and refuse to pay the £30 and risk losing an extra £100 when i joined the club!

Thanks Nathan

[Whirlygig]

Agreed that flight time should be chargeable. However, it is also loggable so overall won't make any difference to your overall PPL hours, just maybe a dint in your weekly cash flow.

On the other hand, if your instructor was talking to you about improving your flying, then I would say that it's a briefing and you shouldn't be charged for it. Groundschool would be "chalk and talk" and typically involve theory etc on say, Met or Nav. I'm not aware of there being any minimum groundschool time for PPL; I had none!

Cheers

Whirls

[Shunter]

The only groundschool I had for my PPL was the radio course, which was money well spent. But that was structured, booked in advance, and I knew exactly what was occurring.

Quick, friendly chats over a brew in the cafe are NOT groundschool, and I think your dad is right; they're trying to take advantage of a student who doesn't know any better.

Keep it polite, but just mention to them that you're not comfortable with being charged for what was never anything other than a friendly chat, and certainly wasn't pre-notified as groundschool. Don't feel bullied into not saying anything. They're almost certainly not going to jeopardise the potential revenue from a full PPL course over it.

[jxc]

I am not aware of any mandatory ground school for ppl just 100's hours for ATPL's and i am just about to take my skills test :E

[Shunter]

jxc - you're incorrect. It's 60hrs compulsary groundschool for the ATPL exams. LASORS, Section J.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

No longer involved in UK flight instruction but I think that what you relate is a damned poor show.
One course of action would be to check what the club rules are about briefing charges and the rates, if any. Then buttonhole the instructor and, reminding him of your previous chat, ask him if that constituted a chargeable briefing because you were unaware that it was anything other than the usual airman two way chat flow.
In the meantime, you could be searching around for another place to train, perhaps a school would be no more expensive? Should have thought that a club with an attitude like that would cost you more in the long run than the £100 to cut and run. If they are going to try and hit you with £30 for what should have been free of charge, how much more will they cheat you. You'd better rack up another three or four conversations before you leave them and that will be your £100
Never heard of a set minimum briefing time schedule for PPL flight training, a ground school syllabus perhaps, but that's a different story. Also must admit to being quite prejudiced against flying clubs as places for learning to fly, finding them in general, self serving and amateurish. One further labours under the illusion that there are some very self esteeming big fish in the teeniest of ponds and that they are perhaps sometimes stuck there through some fault of their own. Will take correction on that prejudice as it comes.
Good luck anyway.

[rons22]

20 mins chat with very experienced instructor is sometimes worth paying for. If his advice really improved your flying pay for it. If it was just chit chat then run away from that club.

i just want to know if this sort of situation is common practice and i just need to make allowances or as my dad keeps telling me "they've had my pants down"

Unfortunately flying schools are operating in very tough commercial environment and any opportunity to pocket few £ is welcome.
I used to have instructor who used to briefe me in the aircraft and I was paying for it as a flying time. I was 21 at the time and didn't dare questioning his methodolgy. :O
More advanced training gets even worse as when you fly multi engine aircrafts it cost about £400/hour or almost £7 a minute. :ok:

Who said flying isnt fun?;)

My advice: agree everything in advance, check all the prices carefully and be firm

[cavortingcheetah]

:)

Not being a fan of flying clubs, one wonders what this initial £100 has bought the poor fellow? Perhaps some subsidised drinks for the motley crew at the bar in the middle of the morning?
Perhaps that is very cynical but such was the situation at the last flying club, in Norfolk, the doors of which I entered in order to sign on to teach flying and promptly exited in disgust.:{
A really good flight school such as Bill S used to run, and I hope still does, is an excellent training place. That's the sort of place for the ab initio student to learn to be a pilot.:ooh

Edit: Perhaps this might be a good time for Nathan to drop those who are up to speed with these things, a clue as to where he lives. That way perhaps someone could come up with the name of a flying school (or, heaven forfend,a club:yuk:) near where he lives. If nothing else, it might make an interesting comparison one way or the other.

[1800ed]

At my flying club, we only pair for the time in the air. As the instructors famously say, 'Anything we do on the ground is free, so lets get it right here first'. Means I always get thorough briefings before trying anything new and if a lesson is canceled because of the weather we do a briefing for the next lesson instead.

[jxc]

OK I stand corrected

[Mercenary Pilot]

While I do think that instructors are entitled to charge for their time, and a lot of students would certainly benefit from a more detailed explanation of the groundschool subjects, charging for a chat is totally taking the PlSS! Sadly it's very common in the UK flight training industry to rip off (potential) pilots so I would just be pleased that your experience has only cost you £130 to find out that it's a shoddy outfit.

Take your cash elsewhere, there are lots of good clubs/schools out there who would be happy to take on a new PPL student.

Remember, YOU are the customer!!!


:ok:

[BigGrecian]

Remember, YOU are the customer!!!

True.

However, any decent school will also value that you are :

A student first, Customer Second.

Ie your training is incidental to the money you spend. You must meet the requirements and no amount of financial/time pressure should influence the standard required at the end of training.

[silverknapper]

Agree with most of the above Nathan.

They sound like a bad lot so walk now before they cost you even more. Also get your (brief!!) training records from them and your time thus far will count.
However you must walk away. If that is their attitude it will only get worse as you become more involved with them.
I am disappointed on 2 levels:
1.The management shouldn't be trying to profit to that extent from a chat.
2.I am disapointed in an instructor who keeps a clock running whilst talking to you.

I remember an ex instructor of mine, Mr Jones who was excellent at telling me things as they were. If the clubs owners were pressuring him to make me fly in marginal conditions he would take me aside and counsel me as to his thoughts. Lovely chap, now flying bigger things.
I agree with everying Mr Cheetah writes in these forums, everything. However if I may disagree on just one thing it is this. A lot of clubs are out to fleece you, but if you can find a good one I believe it is invaluable to your development as a PPL. You will be able to chat with many people of varying levels of ability and experience, for free!! You can go along if anyone has a spare seat, watch what is happening. Also I was fortunate enough to receive free flying for maintenance flights, some 40 hours in fact.

Most of all stick with it. Enjoy it. You have come to the right place to be kept informed.

God luck

[Nathan1986]

I'd just like to thank everyone for their advice, I think i may look for a flying school elsewhere, I did feel a little hard done to, as much as I value an instructors time and knowledge, it wouldnt have been a problem if i had been made aware of the cost beforehand. I feel dissapointed and let down by the club now and will enquire about flying somewhere else. I live in north west england, i did not name the school as i thought it to be a little unfair considering i was asking your opinions without "naming and shaming" when for all i know this could be common practice.

On a lighter note i find it very re-assuring coming on and talking to you guys, im really impressed with the amount of positive comments such as "dont let this stop you" and "keep flying". Im sure many of us are in the same boat when it comes to boring people to death when we talk about flying. I think that throughout the training process almost everyone feels like they will never get there and feels like giving up when things get tough. I really think that this is a great place for people to get a good old kick in the backside!!!

Cheers guys!

Nathan

[civil aviation]

There may be genuine members' clubs but, sadly, many 'clubs' are actually fronts for flight training businesses lining the pockets of CFI's and some instructors with students' cash. Hence the horror stories about how many hours and briefings many people are milked for before they were 'ready'.
If you are on the pay-as-you-go route, success will usually cost you a lot more than you imagined or they told you. The alternative is a fixed-price course. Booking a course will involve committing cash up-front but, if you go to Florida, you should save a small fortune and qualify in weeks.
In both cases, beware of and ask about the price of essential extras such as exam fees, and fuel surcharges

[bartonfly88]

130 pounds is crazy expensive, in canada its $119 an hour in a 172, Theres lots of people flying at the club here from englan and india and I geuss thats the reason.

[bartonfly88]

they must be payed an hourly rate as opposed to flight time

[Speed bird 002]

You should NAME AND SHAME the flying school involved. Atleast that would then make them change their ripping off tactics. :mad:

If i was you, i would bloody name and shame them, and then use your hard earned cash else where.:D

[Re-Heat]

It is disgraceful that any business would fail to advertise a charge before charging.

While it is true that time with an instructor is valuable for experience, they should only consider charging if they present a structured groundschool course as part of a PPL package.

All else is briefing time for flight training - for which you are already paying an agreed charge per flight hour.

[A and C]

Let me take a guess!.........................Cabair?

[Shunter]

Cabair? In the north west? Do me a favour...

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Perhaps not Cabair, it's a club that the poor fellow is/was training at.
It might be that it appears on one of the lists on this cumbersome website. One must be able to trim the things down but such niceties are beyond African dogs.
Maybe Nathan would like to asterix the offending organization and post it back so that those who advocate naming and shaming will know and he will not be compromised by having directly revealed the mob?

Today's Pilot - For people who fly (http://www.todayspilot.co.uk/index.html?http://www.todayspilot.co.uk/ltfg/ltfg_regionR.asp?region=South%20West%20England)

:E

[smith]

I remember I was at UKFT in California, between lessons was talking to my instructor in the tea room area nothing formal and not scheduled in any way, next day landed with a bill for about $50, was not happy to say the least and questioned it, still ended up paying!!!

[119.35]

I think you should name them as you could be saving someone else making the same mistake at some point in the future. Pprune is full of 'debates' on particular schools, this is how it allows people to use the information as part of their decision making process. It's admirable that you don't want to 'name and shame' them but all you are simply doing is passing on details of the experience you have gained of a particular outfit, so that others can benefit from your experience.

When I did my ppl recently, the school I went to operated a 2 hr slot booking system. That allowed aircraft walkaround, full brief and de-brief and you were only charged for actuall flying time. That normally gave you ample time and opportunity to discuss the specific lesson or anything else to that matter. If there wasn't a full days flying booked for the school, I could stay there all day chatting to the instructors if I wanted to, with no hint of being charged extra. In fact, they positively encouraged me to pop along and have a chat about things and said I could also study for the exams all day long there also.

As far as paying for 'ground school' was converned, I only paid for 2 sessions and it was made clear that I was receiving proper 'ground school' This was on a day when the weather was a wash out and I was given the opportunity to have specific tuition on something in a class room environment. One of the sessions was on PFLs and it was by no means mandatory and was £30 for an hour, but it was worthwhile to cover something which is a bit more complex in detail. And that 1 hour turned into about 2 hrs classroom tuition for £30.

So it's important with any school that it's made clear what is classed as ground school and what you are likely to be charged for!

That's just to give you an insight into how another school operated and to illustrate that they aren't all the same! I think it would have cost me about £20k for my ppl if I had to pay £30 for every little chat!

So don't have any qualms about naming them (possibly after you have found another one) to allow others to help make informed decisions.

Good luck with the rest of your training!!

[init2winit]

A couple of words of caution:-

1) You may well save money by paying for the course upfront but be carefull if you go over the hours allocated. You'll have to find some more money to cover that. Also if the club/business/school goes bust you may well loose all that money. I worked for a school that went under and alot of students lost alot of money.

2) Aviation is a small world. If you name the club it may come back to haunt.

Personally I would name them and I think 119.35 you should name your club too, good and bad.

[18greens]

Hi,

First I think all charges should be clear and up front.

Second I think ground school should be charged for especially if the instructor is paid on a per hour basis. After all you pay your plumber from the time he leaves home, not just for the time he has a spanner in his hand.

I always charge for the long briefs (Circuits, PFL, NAVx, Complex conversions) because to do them well takes a good few hours and I'd rather be flying than sitting in a classroom on a hot day. As someone pointed out £20 on good ground school saves more than that in the air.

18

[helimutt]

As an ex instructor my take on this is as follows:-

You pay a 'per hour' rate for your flying or an agreed amount for a 45 hour ppl course. Included in that is the cost of the briefings because the PPL syllabus as per the JAR syllabus, includes a briefing before each exercise. (How else are you to understand what you're supposed to be doing without structured ground school?)

If you wish to pay for extra tuition then you ask for it and have it at a time separate to your flight training, ie when the wx is too poor to fly or on an evening. That way it is agreed what you are paying for (ie instructors time) and also you can pay for as much or as little of the tuition you need for passing the ppl exams.

If you aren't advised by an instructor that you will be charged for his time, there and then, I wouldn't expect you to pay.
There are some real 'suckhole' instructors around and sounds like you met up with one of them.
In this present economic climate, it's easy to say the schools are trying to fleece as much cash out of students but in reality, they should be treating the students with a bit more respect as that is where their income is from.

Find a different school Nathan. Sounds like they might just 'extend' your training, using the excuse you need further training and make more out of you than is really necessary. Think about it. If you're happy with this sort of practice you've experienced then carry on. Personally, I would change schools.
There are some really good instructors out there.

[A and C]

Nothing in the posts from the guy who is being ripped off gives any clue to the location, so how do you know who it is not !?

[THE WELSH WIZARD]

Have a look around for an other school my friend, any one charges me for any thing with out telling the price first, isnt a good person/club to trust.

Sorry its the way i feel!

Good luck nathan.

Just take it on the chin and move on fella.

Regards

TWW :ok:

[JohnRayner]

At my club I pay for the hours I fly, the exams I take and any named ground school I sign up for. I've had hours of little chats with my instructor, on no fly days mostly, and they haven't cost me a penny. Especially the first hour where he told me what I'd be paying for and how much everything was likely to cost!

So no, I'd say what you experienced is not the norm, spend your money elsewhere.

Cheers all.

Oh, and the hours you fly are the hours you fly. It all costs the same, and adds up the same in the end. I've had the odd 1.1 hour lesson, and the odd 0.9 hour one, the point is you should only pay for the time you fly, which'll be on the tacho. (I think!)