Night Autorotation training

[dragman]

Gday all

Interested to hear variations on the theme of how night autos are taught in a basic trainer such as R44.

This could cause some interesting arguements.......

Cheers DM

[Elan Head]

The same way as during the day, to a lighted runway, taxiway or helipad.

[darrenphughes]

I would agree with night autos to a lighted runway, taxiway or helipad but I don't see why you would restrict yourself to just those controlled area's during the day if the instructor is familiar with the area(power lines, obstructions, etc).

There's a lot to be said for assessing what kind of spot your student picks during the day and how he/she gets to it. But I don't see any valid reason to practice autos over unlit terrain that is not guaranteed to be free of obstructions after dark(unless you have NVG or some funky equipment like that, but even that won't help too much with power lines)

Although that being said, I have called engine failure on a few students that decided it would be a good idea to fly me over dark unlit terrain during night x-countrys. I did have them power recover above 500ft AGL though. Those little lessons were more about decision making than autorotations.

[Canuck Guy]

If you don't like how things look after you flare, turn off the landing light.:}

[Elan Head]

Re darrenphughes' comments, absolutely, no reason to restrict practice to those controlled areas during the day; just keeps everything happier at night. Re: landing light – yup! :ok:

[dragman]

Certainly agree with the points raised so far, I was really angling after some thoughts on if or how anybody would change the flare.

[oldbeefer]

We teach autos to a flare recovery to the hover at the base of the 'T' (five lights). No problems with it and the flare is as by day.

[krobar]

I've seen some guys teach night auto's at 40kts without a flare, and just a yank on the collective at the bottom. The idea being that the landing light is pointed at the crash-site during the final phase of the auto.
Opinions vary, and I've found a lot of students struggle with depth perception at night. To cushion a unflared auto at the precise moment isn't exactly something you practice enough to get good at it.
A good old 65kt auto with a flare should keep you alive.

[JCR]

A certain person with the initials DD used to say, with a grin, "Only bats and t*ats fly at night......."

:)

JR

[Hughes500]

Constant atitude auto ( approx 35 kts depending upon type) No flare, when you see the individual blades of grass ( hopefully ) pull lever. Was told that problem with flaring is you will lose a bit of spatial awarness. Not sure but that was how I was taught at Wallop and how I teach now

[vaqueroaero]

I will always try and do some kind of flare, but do not ever try and zero out the air/groundspeed. I have seen guys do it with runway lights off and only using the landing lights, then see them doing it with runway lights on and landing lights off. I'm afraid that my cojones aren't that big.

Then I was introduced to these wonderful little pieces of equipment called NVG's.........full downs are now much easier!!!! Spoiled I guess.

[Rotorbee]

I learned it to an unlighted runway. As soon as you see the runway (or just anything for the matter) in the beam of the landing light, flare. Worked like charm. Depth perception is the same as during the day. It stops more or less at 10m. From there on it is experience of the brain. Therefore the more night autos you do the more they give you the same sight picture you are comfortable with during the day. Except for a lot less details and in the peripheral vision there is just nothing (except the grinning face of that sadistic CFI). That makes judging the hight more difficult.
:E
It is rather useless to do night autos to a lighted runway. There will never be one, when you need it the most. It is an emergency procedure after all.

[JohnDixson]

When the US Coast Guard put their single engine HH-52's into service, they implemented a night autorotation training sequence that was an autorotation by the numbers, so to speak, utilizing airspeed, radar altitude and the attitude indicator. They trained to the water. One of the pilots at SA, Kurt Cannon, who was later killed in the S-67 crash at Farnborough, trained them up on this procedure.

John Dixson

[Canuck Guy]

I was first taught doing full downs to a runway in a R22. Auto as normal and when you get the sensation of ground rush near the bottom, flare for count of "One... Two..." and then level off. Cushion with collective for a run-on. Thing that screwed me up the most were the upslope illusions of the lit runway at night.

Makes a great spark show!

[Bravo73]

"Only bats and t*ats fly at night......."

Well, I know that I'm not a bat. So, that must make me a... :eek:


;)


Shoudn't we update the phrase? How about "Only bats and t*ats fly singles at night"? :E

[Decks]

We do them in the S61 sim to the water at night and its totally on numbers. Basically the same as an IFR auto.
At 200'... 20 degrees up, at 75' ...level and at 50' start the pull.
It works really well and the sim will tell you if you crashed. You can even do them on a tail rotor drive failure though it sometimes feels like it's as much about luck as it is about technique....
Not sure I would be too keen about practising them in any single engine for real over unlit terrain...even with a power recovery at 500'. If the engine doesnt respond you'll be very lucky to survive.
;)

[ianp]

Some chat going on here on constant attitude vs variable flare technique. Both are valid techniques, unfortunately they both rely on visual references to fly them.
Advantage of the constant attitude at night vs the variable flare is that it all happens a lot lower height, ergo you might stand a chance of seeing something to enable you to cushion landing. The drawback is that you will probably have a higher run on than from a variable flare.
Either way an engine off at night with no electro optics would be very exciting. (Final word on the constant attitude thing, don't go too slow or it will all go very wrong)!
:)

[dragman]

Interesting to see that both techniques are being taught. I was taught constant attitude, but given the "ideal" :sad: circumstances would more than likely flare. It obviously it makes sense to have both in your weapons cupboard.

Any more suggestions? Thanks all for your thoughts so far

DM

[topendtorque]

I remember watching a mob of reservests doing them into Aneheim stadium, in Hueys.


at the time we were convinced, night time was definately for drinking, but we put it off one night to struggle gamely through our required night bits.

[Arm out the window]

Constant attitude works, but it's worthless unless you happen to be lucky enough to be autoing into a footy field or a big flat paddock where you can run on as fast as you like - as we're all told on GF1, it's the forward speed that kills.

[speds]

Flying B205s over mountainous desert at night in the 80-90s we used to carry pyrotechnic parachute flares to aid emergency landings. Transit altitude was 2-3000ft AMSL. The brief was to pop the first flare as soon as the emergency warning came on and then turn downwind. Pop the second flare at 1500ft AMSL in autorotation then turn back into wind.

Practised the technique many times to full auto landing (throttle at idle) on a sand strip.

The first flare gave enough light to pick the landing spot. The second flare gave enough light to employ variable attitude flare to slow/zero speed touchdown and it (the flare) usually landed, still burning, within 200yds on a still night. The Huey had the most forgiving autorotation characteristics of any helicopter I've ever flown.

[krobar]

So its true, a night auto needs a good flare, or two... :D