Now time for some better news - Troops out of Iraq 2009

[VinRouge]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4381398.ece (http://www.pprune.org/forums/http//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4381398.ece)


And also this:

George Cross Awarded (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2445513/Royal-Marine-who-jumped-on-grenade-awarded-George-Cross.html)

[BigBusDriver]

As a civilian I dont quite understand why the Marine is getting a George Cross instead of a VC. Was it not an enemy grenade he threw himself on??? Can anyone explain the protocol behind the George Cross as opposed to the Victoria Cross in this case?

[VinRouge]

I believe (and therefore am probably wrong) that the VC requires an officer to be present to witness the act and write it up. Hence why many GCs awarded to chaps that do heroic acts but unfortunately didnt have the right person present? :confused: I think I read somewhere once there had to be more than a 90% chance that the person receiving it croaking it in said incident.

either way, cant take an amazing award from the chap for something I know I and many others would most definately not have the balls to do.

Wikipedia is awesome:

The Victoria Cross is awarded for
“ ... most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice, or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-modopshonours-0) ” A recommendation for the VC is normally issued by an officer at regimental level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_British_Army), or equivalent, and has to be supported by three witnesses, although this has been waived on occasion.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-Crook204-22) The recommendation is then passed up the military hierarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_hierarchy) until it reaches the Secretary of State for Defence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_for_Defence). The recommendation is then laid before the monarch who approves the award with his or her signature. Victoria Cross awards are always promulgated in the London Gazette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gazette) with the single exception of the award to the American Unknown Soldier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_the_Unknowns) in 1921.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-NAMUK-23) The Victoria Cross warrant makes no specific provision as to who should actually present the medals to the recipients. Queen Victoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_of_the_United_Kingdom) indicated that she would like to present the medals in person and she presented 185 medals out of the 472 gazetted during her reign. Including the first 62 medals presented at a parade in Hyde Park on 26 June (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_26) 1857 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1857) by Queen Victoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Victoria), nearly 900 awards have been personally presented to the recipient by the reigning British monarch. Nearly 300 awards have been presented by a member of the royal family or by a civil or military dignitary. About 150 awards were either forwarded to the recipient or next of kin by registered post or no details of the presentations are known.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-24)
Worth Noting this:

The Victoria Cross (VC) is the highest military decoration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_decoration) awarded for valour "in the face of the enemy" to members of the armed forces of some Commonwealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) countries and previous British Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire) territories. It takes precedence over all other orders, decorations and medals. It may be awarded to a person of any rank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_rank) in any service and civilians under military command, and is presented to the recipient by the British monarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_monarchy) during an investiture held at Buckingham Palace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckingham_Palace). It is the joint highest award for bravery in the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) with the George Cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross), which is the equivalent honour for valour not in the face of the enemy.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-Modclub-1) However, the VC is higher in order of precedence and would be worn first by an individual who had been awarded both decorations (which has not so far occurred).Interesting bit here though, perhaps another petition to increase it to whatever those snivelling toads over in Westminster get paid (including the free pad in London):

This is payable to both VC and GC winners:

Annuity

The original warrant stated that NCOs and private soldiers or seamen on the Victoria Cross Register were entitled to a £10 per annum annuity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annuity_%28financial_contracts%29).[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-40) In 1898, Queen Victoria raised the pension to £50 for those that could not earn a livelihood, be it from old age or infirmity.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-41) Today holders of the Victoria Cross or George Cross are entitled to an annuity, the amount of which is determined by the awarding government. Since 2002, the annuity paid by the British government is £1,495 per year.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-42) As of January 2005, under the Canadian Gallantry Awards Order, members of the Canadian Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces) or people who joined the British forces before 31 March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_31) 1949 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949) while domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland receive $ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_dollar)3,000 per year.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-43) The Australian Government provides the two surviving Australian recipients a Victoria Cross Allowance under Subsection 103.4 of the Veterans' Entitlements Act 1986.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-44) In January 2006 the amount was $A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_dollar)3,230 per year which is indexed annually in line with Australian Consumer Price Index increases.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-45)[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross#cite_note-46)

[BigBusDriver]

VR,

I've also read the '90%' figure in regards to the VC and remember reading a news report shortly after the event when an officer mantioned that you would expect '9 out of 10' people who did this to die. I remember that quote as sticking out in my mind as a way to establish early on that this act did in fact warrant a VC.

I mean, good lord if you dont get a VC for leaping on a grenade what do you get one for?? An hour in the company of Gordon himself??

[VinRouge]

See, unlike the yanks, we dont get them in our lunchboxes! :ok:

(Only joking, some exceptionally brave medal of honour winners, vietnam etc, one helecopter crewman that did something very similar to the above, threw themselves on a lit countermeasure flare in order that the aircraft didnt catch fire...)

Found it:

Medal Of Honor Winners Vietnam A-L (http://25thaviation.org/history/home21e.htm)
EVITOW, JOHN L. Rank and organization: Sergeant, U.S. Air Force, 3d Special Operations Squadron. place and date: Long Binh Army post, Republic of Vietnam, 24 February 1969. Entered service at: New Haven, Conn. Born: 1 November 1945, Hartford, Conn. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Sgt. Levitow (then A1c.), U.S. Air Force, distinguished himself by exceptional heroism while assigned as a loadmaster aboard an AC-47 aircraft flying a night mission in support of Long Binh Army post. Sgt. Levitow's aircraft was struck by a hostile mortar round. The resulting explosion ripped a hole 2 feet in diameter through the wing and fragments made over 3,500 holes in the fuselage. All occupants of the cargo compartment were wounded and helplessly slammed against the floor and fuselage. The explosion tore an activated flare from the grasp of a crewmember who had been launching flares to provide illumination for Army ground troops engaged in combat. Sgt. Levitow, though stunned by the concussion of the blast and suffering from over 40 fragment wounds in the back and legs, staggered to his feet and turned to assist the man nearest to him who had been knocked down and was bleeding heavily. As he was moving his wounded comrade forward and away from the opened cargo compartment door, he saw the smoking flare ahead of him in the aisle. Realizing the danger involved and completely disregarding his own wounds, Sgt. Levitow started toward the burning flare. The aircraft was partially out of control and the flare was rolling wildly from side to side. Sgt. Levitow struggled forward despite the loss of blood from his many wounds and the partial loss of feeling in his right leg. Unable to grasp the rolling flare with his hands, he threw himself bodily upon the burning flare. Hugging the deadly device to his body, he dragged himself back to the rear of the aircraft and hurled the flare through the open cargo door. At that instant the flare separated and ignited in the air, but clear of the aircraft. Sgt. Levitow, by his selfless and heroic actions, saved the aircraft and its entire crew from certain death and destruction. Sgt. Levitow's gallantry, his profound concern for his fellowmen, at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Air Force and reflect great credit upon himself and the Armed Forces of his country.



Balls of steel!

[FlapJackMuncher]

Interesting to read that the VC could be sent in the mail.
When I say interesting I mean unbelievable.

[Green Flash]

L/Cpl Croucher's body armour and backpack shielded everyone from the blast

I like that bit.:)

When the bang went off he was thrown through the air and suffered just a nose bleed.

And some laundry?:}

Nice one, Cpl Croucher:ok::ok::ok: I would imagine he would have been rewarded enough to know that his mates hadn't been fragged.

[mystic_meg]

one helecopter crewman

Think you'll find it was an AC-47 gunship, aka DC-3, aka Dakota :ok:

[NutLoose]

Out of Iraq by 2009? is that because Bush's cronies intends to move them all next door?........


I do hope it's true, and not just all of the short term political bulls**t we get to make Brown look good at the cost of others..... Still waiting on the promised referendum over the European Treaty we were supposed to get as well, yeah right!............ I will believe it when the last man steps onto UK soil.

[moosemaster]

Nut, you, I and everyone else here knows that he giveth with one hand and taketh with the other, just like every other politician.

The last time he announced a troop reduction in Iraq, he used it to cover up a troop increase in Afghanistan!!

I predict things will not improve noticeably for anyone, whether they wear cabbage, growbag or denim.

OH, btw, this guy should DEFO have gotten the VC, not the GC.

It smacks of denial by HM Govt that there is in fact an enemy out there who is trying to kill our guys. VC all the way!!

[Wader2]

The GC and VC rank equal. The reason given for it being the GC was that he was not under fire or in the face of the enemy. Although it was an enemy grenade it was not in the heat of battle but never-the-less a most remarkable and selfless act.

There was a case in Aden in, IIRC 1965, when an ADC threw himself on a grenade thus saving the Governor and others with him. I think he got the GC too.

The odd one out may be Malta. Malta was awarded the GC when very clearly the island was resolute in the face of enemy fire. Maybe it should have been Malta VC.

[wonderboysteve]

The odd one out may be Malta. Malta was awarded the GC when very clearly the island was resolute in the face of enemy fire. Maybe it should have been Malta VC.

But was that not because the population of Malta was civilian, and the VC can only be awarded to military personnel?

[Wader2]

No, civilians are eligible:

NAM Online : Exhibitions : The Victoria Cross (Online) (http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/exhibitions/vc/page2.shtml)

an 1858 warrant extended the eligibility of the VC to ‘non-military persons’ serving with the forces. Five civilians have been awarded the VC.

The key word is probably serving and of course the Maltese were not, as a whole, serving.

Although the 1920 Royal Warrant made provision for awards to women of the nursing and hospital services, as yet no woman has won the VC. This could change as many women now serve in operational theatres.

[XV277]

The GC was introduced specifically to deal with civillian incidents of tremendous bravery - it's use for military awards not in the face of the emeny is (almost) an incidental to that introduction - no doubt seen as a way of recognising acts that wouldqualify for a VC if in battle.

hence why it was awarded to the RUC, and to other civilians in non-combat situations - police officers, a train driver, the BOAC stewardess and a 15 year old boy who rescued his family from a burning building.

[Wader2]

XV277 - heros all, unlike some that the media proclaim as heros. Mind you, those entering burning buiildings etc and who often get awards for life saving etc possibly also deserve the GC as their lives may indeed be forfeit.

[CirrusF]

As a civilian I dont quite understand why the Marine is getting a George Cross instead of a VC. Was it not an enemy grenade he threw himself on??? Can anyone explain the protocol behind the George Cross as opposed to the Victoria Cross in this case?


The VC is equivalent to GC, but VC is only awarded for heroism in the face of the enemy. So although it was an "enemy" grenade, he was not acting in the face of the enemy, so he gets GC instead of VC. Same applied to Peter Norton, of RLC, who did the "longest walk" across a suspected minefield to check for possible boobytraps. Unfortunately he was seriously injured on the way back when he stepped on another IED.

To get the VC, the recipient has to act directly in the face of the enemy.

The citations for the awards do not depend on the the account of an officer (though it helps). There normally have to be three witnesses, though that requirement can sometimes be waived too. There was one VC awarded to a NZ RAF pilot on the recommendation of the captain of the German U-boat which he died attacking.