TIBA?

[flyinggit]

I read this morning about a J* plane coming close to a US Learjet in ozzy airspace. A friend of mine whom is a 'bus driver' said it could happen more & more seeing that not enough ATC personel are available to monitor & regulate our airspace. I wonder if the US plane didn't know of our airspace rules enough to end up in this situation?
I'm not really exposed to TIBA but am sure some are in here, comments?

FG

[boree3]

Read somewhere this morning that "they never got closer than 15 miles" which is 3 times the ATC separation standard. Looks like 5 miles is good enough for Airservices in TIBA airspace.

Ask any controller how often he/she uses 5 miles and they`ll say, basically never as i like to sleep at night! There is a time and a place wher i may use something between 5 and 10 miles but headings or speeds or both will be pegged.

From memory the Lear and a JST aircraft were at the same level ( FL240?) and never got closer than 15nm. Where they converging, diverging or just 15nm abeam as they passed? Either way it doesn`t sound good.

[crank1000]

So was it a US registered Learjet or simply a US made Learjet? Sort of gives you the impression it wasn't Aussie crewed. If it was crewed by Americans then it certainly would have mentioned it in the article.

If you want to make a statement like that surely you must also say that the Airbus was French made? The way it was written, ie without clear facts such as the exact details of the supposed incident makes me think that there's mountains being made out of molehills. I know that ATC have been running bare bones but if this incident was as serious as it is made to sound, then it would have been on here the day it happened.

Once again I think our infomedia friends are making news out of nothing. Bring on the ripping if I'm wrong!

[aviatorguy]

Yup. Gotta love the spin from Airservices. 5 nm may be correct, but only under radar control, right? Funny that the radar control bit was missed out. Misquoted perhaps? ???

[ozmahseer]

I have not read that article, a link anyone?

Were the aircraft in radio contact prior to 15 miles?
Did they get a RA or even a TA?
If they were going head to head they would have 1 to 2 min before impact so TA not really an option? check my maths on that one.

IF they were in contact, and they were aware of eachother then what is the conern? Where does this 15nm figure come from?

TIBA is a joke, however any examples used to further the cause need to be rock solid, this one appears not to be. More concerning the AsA and CASA's revelation that this is an "international practice". Lets say that the Lear was crewed by US pilots, how the hell would these guys know about TIBA? Sure its in the AsA published AIP, but why on earth would a US pilot have that? What about Jepps, well in the ATC "AU" pages its there, but once again the US pilots would not have those they would have the "AUSTRALIA" ATC pages which is a condensed version (and last time I looked no TIBA in there). Perhaps to address this there is now a YSHO notam listing TIBA, 10 out of 10 for tin plating but I'm not sure it will achieve much.

[ForGreaterSafety]

Booree 3 said "Ask any controller how often he/she uses 5 miles and they`ll say, basically never as i like to sleep at night!"

I would say I use it every single day that I am controlling. You might want to stipulate what type of controller you are talking about. ie: Enroute, Approach, Tower etc.


Cheers

[somniferous]

THE Civil Aviation Safety Authority is investigating an air traffic control report that a US Learjet came within 60 seconds of a possible collision with a Jetstar Airbus because of confusion about uncontrolled airspace.
Robert Mason, the head of the air traffic control union Civil Air, last night described the incident as "very concerning" and an example of the havoc that uncontrolled airspace is causing.
However, a spokesman for the Government's air traffic control manager, Airservices Australia, played it down, saying there was "no safety occurrence and no breakdown of air traffic control safety standards".
An Electronic Safety Incident Report of the incident, written by the air traffic controller on duty and obtained by The Australian, states the incident occurred last Saturday after a section of airspace on the Melbourne to Sydney route suddenly became unmonitored at 7.30am due to an air traffic control staff shortage.
A shortage of controllers has increasingly forced large chunks of Australian skies to be left unmonitored in recent months, forcing pilots to rely on themselves and other pilots to avoid collisions.
The ESIR indicated the declaring of uncontrolled airspace on Saturday caused confusion among pilots of several aircraft.
The worst of these was when the pilot of an American-registered Learjet flying from Wollongong in NSW to Melbourne baulked at climbing up into uncontrolled airspace despite being cleared to do so. The report says the pilot failed to climb "apparently due to uncertainty with proximity traffic" in uncontrolled airspace.
As a result, the plane stayed on its course at 24,000ft, which caused it to veer into a different controlled airspace near Canberra. This alarmed controllers because Jetstar flight 720 from Hobart to Sydney was heading north at the same height, and time, through that sector.
The incident report says the Learjet was "briefly uncontactable" because the pilot was on a different frequency and that the controller was "concerned" about the risk to northbound air traffic, especially JS720.
"The two aircraft passed within 15 nautical miles abeam of each other southwest of Canberra," the ESIR said.
Mr Mason said yesterday; "Aeroplanes passing 15 miles apart may seem like a lot ... but they are travelling so fast that in some scenarios there can be less than 60 seconds to react and avoid an accident. This incident is a clear example that the current system related to (uncontrolled airspace) has an unacceptable safety level."
However, an Airservices spokesman said the 15nm separation was three times the required limit in that sector. A spokeswoman for Jetstar said the airline had not been notified about the ESIR.
CASA confirmed last night it was investigating the incident.
The Australian last week revealed warnings from air traffic controllers than many international pilots did not know the safety procedures for flying through uncontrolled airspace.
Civil Air has called for a sweeping review of the safety of passenger jets flying through uncontrolled airspace.
Few countries in the world have uncontrolled airspace. CASA maintains that flying through uncontrolled airspace -- while not ideal -- is safe, but Qantas and Jetstar pilots have been instructed to avoid flying through it when possible.

[boree3]

For Greater Safety, last time i looked it was 5 miles in en-route, which, and i stand to be corrected, was the type of airspace that the JST aircraft and the Lear would have been in at FL240.

The point i was making. albeit poorly ( off doggo ) is that the article implied 5nm is good enough in TIBA. Well, i`d say someone is smokin something if aircraft "miss" by 5nm is good enough. Tell that to the pax. down the back.

Without knowing the full details of the ESIR ( i don`t have access but i`m sure a copy or two is floating around by now ) 15nm abeam and no closer is near enough for me if both aircrew were aware of each other. Now if for some reason this was not the case then 15nm is not safe enough for me or my family to fly. Whats your 'margin of safety'.

[max1]

For Greater Safety,

The standard is 5 miles, 4.9 miles is not a standard it is tea and bickies time to explain what went wrong.
What boree3 is saying that you would not run aircraft ONLY 5 miles apart in enroute airspace as you would have no wriggle room if the speeds changed.
It seemed pretty obvious what they were on about to me.

[GaryGnu]

Ozmasheer,

I had the same concerns re availability of TIBA broadcast info in International documents.

TIBA is an approved ICAO procedure (ICAO Annex 11 Attachment C). It is also reproduced in the Jepp World Wide Text document that I had a look at yesterday (ATC page 475 for those interested if my document was not a company tailored one). It is not only in the AU pages as far as I am aware.

Whether all overseas pilots operating in Australian airspace have access to the information I do not know. Perhaps given recent publicity the various operators will take steps to ensure they do.

I do agree that the TIBA procedures are insufficient for ensuring separation in airspace without ATS being provided. 5nm sep IMHO is waaay too close in TIBA airspace and to claim it is the standard, as a spokesman did, is decpetive.

The bottom line is that it should not be happening in Australia and the fact that it is is a great indictment on the long term management of Airservices and CASA.

[Funk]

According to CASA and AsA the 10 years I spent as an Area Controller were a complete waste of time and I really wasn't needed. Can someone just pass that on to the flying school at Coffs where I spoked to the young vfr student lost in IMC west of Coffs...I could go with a littany of lost pilots, helping guys (GA & RPT Jets) trying to find their way through the crap weather to get north of Casino. But hey my colleages and I (alongwith AsA) were taking money under false pretences as we were not really needed.

When you're sitting in your cockit at M.83 at FL320 I hope you're comfortable with someone at the same level who may or may not be on your frequency and may or may not have a working TCAS passing 15nm in front :ok:

[amberale]

Actually the separation standard is 1 nm.

Tolerences are then added to this dependant on the airspace and surveilance system.
So in TMA within 50 nm of a radar head the tolerences applied to each "paint" are 0.8 nm.
0.8 + 0.8 = 1.6 + 1nm for the separation = 2.6. This is rounded up to 3nm.

In enroute the tolerences are 1.6.
1.6 + 1.6 = 3.2 + 1nm sep =4.2. Rounded up to 5nm.

Those tolerence figures are approximate. I'm a long way from my copy of the books but you should get the idea.

Outside of radar/ADSB coverage the standards are 20nm or 10 minutes longitudinal.
Lateral [I think, it's been a long time since wielded a spanner]
30nm either side of track for DR.
That is 61nm between aircraft tracks at the same level.

8nm either side of track for Rnav
That's 17nm between aircraft tracks at the same level.

If no one is looking at the radar which standard should it be gauged on?

AA

[Louis Cypher]

I'm very reliably informed - the "lear" was a citation, US rego, but a 'local'; Oz operated & crewed

[ForGreaterSafety]

Boree and Max 1, all you did is reinforce my point. Yes, the standard is rounded up to 5 miles (thanks Amberale) but not in all airspace and not everyone who reads this is a controller. So when boree said that if you asked any controller if when he used less than 5 miles, he would reply never. Well, that is incorrect and I was suggesting that he should clarify his arguement by saying what controller in what airspace. So asking about my margin of error is really a moot point. I am talking about no controller ever using less than 5 miles. No agro here just suggesting a clarification.

Cheers
FGS:eek:

[Dixondik]

Word getting around the traps:

CB APP have lost/are loosing a number of controllers, AsA looks at the College instructors to jump into the hot seat (APP), if only there was someone there to train them.

Next Radar course starting in August will not actually commence the 'course' till next year due to lack of instructors. They will most likely assist TGOs, take out the rubbish each arvo etc.

If anyone sees this improving, take a closer look.

[flyinggit]

Ok so now we are talking about a Cessna instead of a Learjet. Almost every time the press refer to a small jet it's a "Learjet". One often hears a US rego plane, I wonder how long they can operate here in Oz as US reg?
So with TIBA there are no seperation standards? I guess not to some degree 'cause yr not under any radar control etc. Not being involved in that level of flight I'm learning at others mistakes.


FG

[aussiegal]

I concur with Louis and True, it's a Citation, based at EN, OZ crew, US registered.

[DoctorBoner]

So with TIBA there are no seperation standards?

There is NOTHING.

[amberale]

FGS no worries.:ok:
I thank dog for 3nm every shift.
"I've got 3.2" :8
"you need 5 for wake turb you idiot":E

I understand the sector folks being reluctant to monitor 5nm for 30 minutes on a 1000nm scale screen though.

AA

[ER_BN]

AA,

Concerns are right....

Do you really think AsA has ever had any evidence that 5nm is safe at a range greater than 500nm??

I don't think so!!

Controllers are separating without a standard every day.

Would CASA care, I doubt it??

ER_BN

[ForGreaterSafety]

AA,
Absolutely that would be too painful.

FGS:eek:

[max1]

FGS,
So why didn't you just clarify it then?

[WELLCONCERNED]

AMBERALE,


If you want to be precise, the separation 'standard' is NOT 1NM.

The separation "STANDARD" is that the 'probability of overlap" is less that a predetermined target level of safety for a particular application - most often in en-route airspace the TLS is 5 x 10E9 fatal accidents per flight hour per flight dimension.

The range of separation "MINIMA" that controllers are allowed to use is based on navigation certainty, intervention capability and surveillance fidelity - hence with low fidelity surveillance [procedural] and low fidelity intervention capability [HF radio, and low navigation capability [RNP10] the minima might be 20 minutes. In high fidelity environments - radar, VHF, etc, it might be 5NM.

By the way - the lowest separation minima authorised for ATC use between IFR flights is 1000 feet - vertical!

TIBA is non-controlled airspace - there are NO separation standards or minima. If aircraft 'miss', then TIBA has been effective.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

If aircraft 'miss', then TIBA has been effective
If pilots of 'possibly' conflicting aircraft ARE aware of and communicating with each other to arrange a 'miss' ... then, 'as ordinary as that is' (with possible closing speeds upwards of 900Kts) .. TIBA (as a last line contingency) has been effective!
.
If either or both pilots do NOT know of the other traffic and therefore do not have a mutually discussed 'resolution plan' .... TIBA has NOT been effective in so far as 'luck' has played a substancial part!
.
There is a world of difference between the two!! :=

[SM4 Pirate]

There is a world of difference between the two!! If a man screams in space... if a tree falls in the woods... if two miss in TIBA...:}

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

.... Indeed Pirate ;)

[tobzalp]

Wellconcerned

If you want to be precise, the separation 'standard' is NOT 1NM.


I suggest you read MATS.

It is 1nm between the possible positions of the aircraft. It is precisely that, 1nm. How you determine the 1nm has nothing to do with some folder carrying ******'s formula.

[ForGreaterSafety]

Max, not mine to clarify. It was Boree's post, I was merely trying to point out the I would use less that 5 miles.

Cheers

[max1]

FGS,
The incident occurred in what should have been enroute airspace, the aircraft were not vertically separated, therefore the radar standard, which CASA mouthpiece stated,should have been 5 miles.

Please fix up the syntax on your last post, and stop acting so superior. I visit the site to discuss, 'listen' to others opinions, and also put my point of view.

You seem to enjoy playing little games. Please let me know how, in this instance, you could justify less than the quoted 5 miles.

[Spodman]

If you want to be precise, the separation 'standard' is NOT 1NM...I suggest you read MATS.This is more-or-less off topic, but you will only find the 1 NM stuff in the Orstralian MATS AFAIK, the ICAO standard is based on the probability model, Oz complies with stuff like the cross-track tables, doesn't with that magic 1 NM. And I agree, all bets are off in the TIBA.

[ForGreaterSafety]

Max, I don't think I am superior at all. I would consider myself an average controller with much to learn. But since you've asked my opinion in this instance, I would not use any separation as it's not controlled airspace at that time. I agree that if it was airspace that required 5 miles I would not use less than that. If it were airspace that required 3 miles I would not use less than that. My simple request was that Boree clarify what type of airspace he was talking about. I just don't think he should have left it at, no controller would ever use less than 5 miles, when reality is that it is used every day in many ways.

As far as sounding superior, you're a bit hoity toity aren't you, asking me to fix my syntax when I type 'the' instead of 'that'.

Get of your high horse.

[ozmahseer]

Get of your high horse.

It's OFF not OF ;)

Sorry I couldn't resist it.

[max1]

FGS,
And that instead of than, but that is by the by.
You seem to enjoy seeing yourself as the wise mage sitting on the mountain telling people they are wrong, whilst not pointing out the error.
You must be fun to work with.
Controller " XXX requesting FL 370"
FGS " Not available"
Controller "XXX requesting FL 350"
FGS " Not available"
Controller"XXX requesting any higher levels"
FGS " What level does he want"
Controller "Is FL 330 available"
FGS "Not available"
Controller " So when do you move into management?"

[Quokka]

...but you will only find the 1 NM stuff in the Orstralian MATS AFAIK, the ICAO standard is based on the probability model, Oz complies with stuff like the cross-track tables, doesn't with that magic 1 NM. And I agree, all bets are off in the TIBA.

There is the Australian MATS... and then there is ICAO 4444. Agree on TIBA... if they missed, then TIBA worked. There is no Separation Standard.

Whether one is comfortable flying in TIBA is a different question.

A passenger purchases a ticket for a flight and, in doing so, believes that they are paying a premium that ensures that they will arrive at their destination alive and safe, to the maximum extent possible. Unless they are in aviation and understand the reality, they will firmly believe that the flight is being monitored and controlled by an Air Traffic Controller for the duration.

Is it morally correct to board a passenger on a flight that will pass through airspace subject to TIBA and not inform the passenger that their flight will not be subject to an Air Traffic Control service? Is it morally correct to deny that passenger the choice of whether to continue the flight in the knowledge that there will not be an Air Traffic Control service... or not board the aircraft because they personally deem the risk to be unacceptable?

[wolf_wolf]

So should the airlines therefore refund that portion of the ticket price to the passengers? The ones they didn't tell about flying through TIBA as per Quokka's 'moral' point?

direct.no.speed - this has been the best comment I have read of this thread of late... well done sir ! Simple, but fundamentally the crux of this whole argument... :ok:

[Capt Claret]

The ones they didn't tell about flying through TIBA

Can you imagine the pandemonium at the airport. Pax would have to check in three hours before departure so that they could have TIBA explained prior to making a decision whether to board or not, just to attempt an on-time departure.

[ForGreaterSafety]

You seem to enjoy seeing yourself as the wise mage sitting on the mountain telling people they are wrong, whilst not pointing out the error.
Is it
mage (mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifj) n. A magician or sorcerer.

or




sage 1 (shttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifj) n. One venerated for experience, judgment, and wisdom.

adj. sag·er, sag·est 1. Having or exhibiting wisdom and calm judgment.
2. Proceeding from or marked by wisdom and calm judgment: sage advice.
3. Archaic Serious; solemn.

Which one do you think max?

Cheers ozmahseer, missed that one.

[makespeed250kt]

QUOKKA, You mean to say there aren't enough blokes(and girls) to stand around waving ping-pong bats or to look out of the tower with their bino's?

The average punter wouldn't have a clue how they get from A to B.

[max1]

I should have remembered
'They drag you down to their level, and then defeat you with experience.'

[Quokka]

...waving ping-pong bats or to look out of the tower with their bino's?

Gotta love those bino's... get a good couple of thousand miles range out of them... :ugh: As for the ping-pong bats... two decades later and I'm still waiting for mine... :{

[Renjay]

As an ex controller, I must make the following very cynical statement about TIBA operations.

If TIBA is supposed to be safe (with no traffic restrictions, pilots make their own decision to enter and self separate etc); then why have ATC at all? :\

Make all airspace TIBA (because Airservices and CASA believe and tell the flying public and politicians that it is safe) and let everyone self separate. It would surely help reduce costs!!!!!!!!! :ugh:

[wolf_wolf]

Careful Renjay - for some sectors, it could well be on the cards... Ain't NASA already working on it ?

[Jerricho]

Somebody at work here in Canukastan forwarded me the link to this Courier Mail article (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24048495-27197,00.html). Wow.

Good luck guys and all the best The rest of the world appears to be watching.

[SM4 Pirate]

Was there a TCAS alert today in TIBA North of Sydney? RA or TA? Perfectly safe international practice, NOT!

[Mickster]

So if you're flying along enroute (IFR) and are then advised that the airspace you are in is shortly becoming TIBA. Do you then get a reduced cost of the airspace if you remain in TIBA or a you still paying full price.

On several occassions we (the crew) have elected to climb to remain outside TIBA. Purely a safety consideration though.

TIBA = Traffic Incidents Barely Avoided :}

[Gear Down & Welded]

Quokka,

Should they also explain when they fly into HVB, BNA, etc that they would be arriving into uncontrolled airspace too?? Bet 99.999% of the pax wouldn't know that either!

Times like this, whilst Joe Public should know it's probably best for the continuation of the industry they they don't.

Does that make TIBA acceptable NOT in the SLIGHTEST! But would mass hysteria and 0 travelling public improve the situation... maybe by eliminating all RPT and CHTR being no pax an all, but that isn't the right solution is it!

[tobzalp]

TIBA and DTI are vastly different.

[RektlSfinkta]

From my experience as an ATC for the last decade or so, I would have to agree that the general public have very little idea of what or how we do our job. However, I expect that most would understand that not having a controller watching over their aeroplane when there should be is not a good situation. There doesn't seem to be much happening to correct the staffing situation requiring the use of TIBA, so perhaps a little mass hysteria amongst the general public might encourage some action. Then again, maybe not.

[Here to Help]

YouTube - Lose Controllers Lose Control - TIBA Air (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=tjtJaFtd9Xs)

[Philthy]

...but you will only find the 1 NM stuff in the Orstralian MATS AFAIK, the ICAO standard is based on the probability model, Oz complies with stuff like the cross-track tables, doesn't with that magic 1 NM. And I agree, all bets are off in the TIBA.

Doc 4444

"Lateral separation shall be applied so that the distance between those portions of the intended routes for which the aircraft are to be laterally separated is never less than an established distance to account for navigational inaccuracies plus a specified buffer. This buffer shall be determined by the appropriate authority and included in the lateral separation minima as an integral part thereof."

Having said that: TIBA = no separation, therefore no separation standard. :eek:

[Roger Standby]

ATC reduced services/TIBA (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ztPCSL5Ks)

[Maisk Rotum]

I work for a large airline that flies four aircraft and hundreds of passengers into and out of Australia every day. I was amazed that on a recent flight there three of my crew were not aware of what TIBA is and did not check the notams to see if it was going to affect them. One was a check airman. When I tried to explain what it means and the procedures to employ, one of them said "but in Australia there is ADSB so it will not affect us"!!!! Aaaaarrrggghh.... I went further into the explanation and said that the procedure can be found in Jeppeson. Undetered by my speech one of themn went to the Jepp, looked briefly and then proclaimed that it had been removed so therefore it didnt apply. I picked up the Jepp turned to the page and handed it to him in disbelief.

[phew_they_missed!]

Scary...but entirely unsurprising.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

Scary...but entirely unsurprising.
.. wot phew said :ooh:
.
.... **** en hell! :uhoh:

[Jabawocky]

We all want to know which operator.......:E

[Howard Hughes]

Undetered by my speech one of themn went to the Jepp, looked briefly and then proclaimed that it had been removed so therefore it didnt apply. I picked up the Jepp turned to the page and handed it to him in disbelief.
The reference can be a little hard to find for the uninitiated...;)

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

... H.H ... true, we understand it is in the Oz annex .... but!
.
... the issue is not where it is hidden in the doc's, rather I was amazed that on a recent flight there three of my crew were not aware of what TIBA is and did not check the notams to see if it was going to affect them. One was a check airman.
I repeat .... **** en hell! :uhoh:

[bushy]

Better get used to it. I reckon you are practising for high level NAS.

[Maisk Rotum]

It depends which Jepp package your company uses. TIBA is not an Australian animal- it is an global (ICAO) thingy so it appears with all the other ICAO stuff in the index. Hard to find..... NOT. Our company just uses the abreviated Australian pages amounting to just a dozen or less and TIBA is not in there. The procedure started life as an IATA initiative for places like Africa and Myanma and was called something like Inflight Broadcast Procedure.

[tasdevil.f27]

Launnie Tower is on CTAF all afternoon & evening. :\

[Jabawocky]

BUGGER!!!

Does that mean my universal map is now invalid? :eek: Time to reprint!

http://file043b.bebo.com/2/large/2008/01/25/00/4525920200a6707299238l.jpg

[makespeed250kt]

Fear not, for it will all be resolved in 12 days time!

[Capn Bloggs]

Airservices - will you PLEASE stop changing that effing TIBA NOTAM! Trying to spot the changes in three full pages of text every time it is re-issued is driving me insane! :ugh::=

[By George]

I have been Off Shore for some 7 years now and it saddens me that the only TIBA Airspace I have seen, is North Africa, Ujung, and Australia. We are third world now and for a former leader in Aviation, this is sad.

[Lord Flashhart]

I agree with Bloggs. Africa must be more advanced than Australia, they don't have a 4 page notam about how to make a position broadcast. I'd be using the 1 mile offsets as well if I were you, just like in similar airspace in China, Yangon and Africa. It is embarrassing to explain to foreign nationalities on the flight deck why a supposed 1st world country like Australia has TIBA in its Airspace. :ugh:

[tasdevil.f27]

http://images.fotopic.net/yui814.jpg

[james michael]

Tas

Be kind to our 'overseas' colleagues.

One is off with a severe bronchial until the weekend, another smashed his wrist including two days in hosp the op was so intense, and they are probably all working a few shifts more than required to prop up the system. Not a very big relief pool in Taswegia :)

But I luv the map :D

[tasdevil.f27]

Yeah mate i know whats happening with the tower staff, good bunch of blokes i might add. No way am i having a go at them as i know they have been doing lots of overtime etc. Always said playing sport is bad for the body :ouch:

Just imagine if they were all off sick, what a mess it would be with every tom , dick & RPT aircraft all playing on 118.7 :\:eek: and throw in some fog for good measure.

The tower boys do a good job, only when they arent there is when certain incidents happen.

[bazza stub]

I wonder if we are still charged enroute fees when there is TIBA. CTAF-AHRRRRR Me matey :}

[undervaluedATC]

I wonder if we are still charged enroute fees when there is TIBA. CTAF-AHRRRRR Me matey

actually, bowing to industry pressure, Airshambles has started refunding navcharges for TIBA affected flights.:\

and they are trying to use that as another reason to not give us a payrise! :ugh:

[Bill Woodfull]

Hey, just realised only two more days folks and the staffing probs are all fixed!

I suppose that means no more TIBA and this thread will die, its been a pleasure folks.

But seriously, can anyone from the School College Academy of Knowledge Learning and Cerebral massage confirm that a senior HR type with a moniker common to an ex Kiwi cricket Captain, a Nobel prize winning biologist and pharmacologist, and WW2 spy cum novelist...dropped a statement in an address recently to you good folk that was the verbal equivalent of the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch referance staffing across the firm?

[Bill Woodfull]

Indeed, looking at the assoc forum, it was a corker.

But I can't post it here because its would then be hearsay and then Mrs Woodfull's little boy Billy may get his botty smacked.

But! If someone heard it with their own ears and relayed it here even with some paraphrase its all good I believe.

...and then you will roll around laughing.

[Howabout]

Can't see why Billy - it is a rumour network.

[trueline]

Yes, Bill, Ms 007 said there were heaps of applicants, so attraction wasn't a problem.

The average retirement age is 58 and there were only 15 resignations last year so retention isn't a problem.

There is a staffing shortage but no 'crisis' as it's only a matter of evening out the numbers across ATC groups.

See! All fixed!

[Howabout]

Mad Hatter's tea party comes to mind as well as something about the emperor's clothes. Are they actually paying these people, or is it work-experience?

[Bill Woodfull]

heaps of applicants, so attraction wasn't a problem.

The average retirement age is 58 and there were only 15 resignations last year so retention isn't a problem.

There is a staffing shortage but no 'crisis' as it's only a matter of evening out the numbers across ATC groups.


Nunnannannanna... (twilight zone music). Wow, so we have integrated some into earth life with jobs etc.

Did anyone ask how many moons had her planet and did they have quirky names like the moons on Jupiter and Saturn? How many days constituted a year and how many hours in a day (and do they sleep ;))?

[Ell85]

Hi all,

I'm currently a PPL with a question regarding this controlled airspace/non controlled/ seperation minima and it's about jet* so I'll post it here instead of bugging the flight deck forums.

On a flight back from Japan in a Jet* airbus I had the pleasure of a window seat even though it was dark at some ridiculous time in the morning (3amish it was a while ago I can't remember now) and looking out the window I saw the lights of another aircraft.

Now given from a distance it can be hard to judge altitude particularly at night this aircraft appeared to be roughly the same altitude as us heading the same direction on a converging course. I continued to watch, wondering where it was headed watching it get closer and closer then suddenly I could see the red and green lights on both wings and the strobe as them or us had made a course change and it was now head on with my side of the aircraft. I wasn't particularly worried though it was close now and I was starting to wonder who was going to change course to avoid the other.

In the end I thought we were going to have a mid air collision. The aircraft passed us ridiculously close below us with a nose down attitude descending away from under our tail and also banking left away from us. It was so close that despite the fact it was the pitch black of night at 40,000ft I could clearly see the tail of the aircraft under it's lights and the fact the plane was whitish/grey colour (probably just dirty) with no logo/ colours painted on the tail of what I assume was probably a 737 or the like.

When the incident occured we would have been somewhere in the region west of Guam.

Just looking for comments/thoughts on the incident/non incident. I did look in the International section of the next Crash Comic CASA released to see if there were any mentions about close encounters but found nothing.

[ferris]

This is probably not the right thread for your "enquiry", but just to assure you that you probably passed many, many other aircraft on your trip that were just as close, but you didnt notice. Some points;
1. If you think you could tell the pitch etc of the other aircraft on a black night, you are kidding yourself. It may have looked that way to you, but the aircraft was most probably straight and level. It is possible that you saw the aircraft turn, as it crossed a point in space- a virtual road-sign. Perfectly normal.
2. As you dont mention an abrupt manouvre by the aircraft you were travelling in, it was not a TCAS event, as both aircraft manouvre in such things. You would have felt it.
3. The sep standard vertically was probably 1000', which given the size of airliners, seems very close to the naked eye.

It's a shame that you can't visit the cockpit anymore, as someone such as yourself with an interest in aviation would learn a lot. One thing you notice in the black of night is how the opposite direction aircraft LOOK like they are at your level, right up until the last seconds. TCAS benefits the crews SA immensely.

There are other possiblities for your scenario (mil due regard out of Guam), but by far the most likely is that you were under standard separation and there was nothing wrong.

The other thing is you were not in Australian airspace. You have far more cause for concern in Australian airspace, where you may be in TIBA, without your knowledge, and not under the protection afforded by ATC. The Australian authorities dont consider ATC necessary, and own a business called Airservices Australia whose function it is is to provide many highly paid people to spin for the media (should they enquire about the third-world air navigation system), make plans, fib to the government, collect taxes without doing anything, and print brochures. They also benevolently export a finite amount of knowledge and experience to parts of the world who do provide ATC.

[Bill Woodfull]

We are 20 Air Traffic Controllers overstaffed"
Phew! I just read on the Assoc forum that 24 controller have recently resigned* at Melbourne Centre for other pastures/sand (most still working serving 'notice')...I thought for a sake that we may be understaffed when they flick their IDs at one of the many managers awaiting to catch such things as these individuals leave the building on their last shift...but you have put my mind at ease.

Lucky no one has resigned at Brisbane Centre, Sydney TWR and TCU, the Regional Towers and the three other TWR/TCU combos.

Lucky eh?

*Resigned to other employment NOT retirement or VR

The other thing is you were not in Australian airspace. You have far more cause for concern in Australian airspace, where you may be in TIBA, without your knowledge, and not under the protection afforded by ATC. The Australian authorities dont consider ATC necessary, and own a business called Airservices Australia whose function it is is to provide many highly paid people to spin for the media (should they enquire about the third-world air navigation system), make plans, fib to the government, collect taxes without doing anything, and print brochures. They also benevolently export a finite amount of knowledge and experience to parts of the world who do provide ATC.
I read that and the only emotion is...sorrow.

Can someone explain to why the govt NEEDS $60M in profit from the rebadged Titanic II now the SS Alan Woods moored at Constitution Ave? Whats the budget Surplus...$17Billion? Whats wrong with revenue neutral?

Australia. Collapsing healthcare, higher education and transport infrastructure. BUT, where you can get paid more for digging a trench in the Pilbara than flying an intercontinental jet aircraft with 300 on board or keeping 8 of the damn things from hitting each other but close enough to minimise fuel burn.

We've come a long way.

[ER_BN]

Bill,

Yep, the world is crazy...

My only comment is that the Pilbara trench digger actually does something productive....most of the people TFN has employed over the last couple of years are natural oxygen thieves....

They continue not to get it...

They think it is a militant few...

They think it is industrial...

Most of them have never worked in a safety based industry before...

All of them do not get the core business....conflict resolution...

Well if their theory was correct surely the most vocal would be staying to appreciate the theoretical enormous pay rise that is supposed to happen...

Strangely, they are all going OS.

As someone on the professional association forum said it so well....

The PNR is past and here are the most likely permutations:

1/. Despite TFNs promises TIBA and Staff Shortage NOTAMs continue after Sept 1 when the miracle of staff was supposed to happen...

2/. The problem gets worse...

3/. The Accelerated negotiations drag on for ever..

4/. The problem gets worse...

5/. Finally long after TFN gone finally the controllers are offered a salary respectful of the job they do and the amazing productivity they have achieved over the last 5 years.....wait for it...

6/. The problem gets worse....

[Ell85]

The other aircraft was definatly banking in a direction away from us... I didn't say it and it's kinda hard to explain but I could see the furtherest away wing poking out from beneath the other side of the aircraft, I could partially see the underside (Sorry hard to explain... imagine a 2D drawing :ugh:). I assumed it was a non event I just couldn' believe seperation minima could be so small 1000ft in airlines particularly at night when it is hard to see... Anyway thanks for answering I know it's not really the place to post but it's kind of an odd post for someone who's only got 130hrs on Cessnas.

[Quokka]

Never be afraid to ask the "stupid" question.

Often, it's not stupid at all... but a step to awareness and understanding of something very important. You may be surprised at how often someone will think, or say to you, I'm glad you asked that question... I didn't know either.

We often take for granted what we know and forget that it needs to be communicated to those who may not know... or consider that they don't need to know (the God complex?). The weaker ones will use the phrase "it's common sense" to justify their inability to educate and mentor. A non-aviation employer I used to work for used the phrase "educate your customer" constantly, to emphasise the need for understanding and communication. I used it in Air Traffic Control in Australia a few times only to hear in reply "why should we, they should know"...or... "it's not my job to educate them". If we have an opportunity to close a hole in the Swiss Cheese, however small, shouldn't we jump at the chance?

EII85,

Today's Cessna pilot with 130hrs is tomorrow's A380 Captain... or Air Traffic Controller. ;) Keep asking those questions and keep questioning your understanding. Good luck.

[Bill Woodfull]

True enough.

Hope to talk to you on the radio sometime Ell85 (and if I take you off the star, slow you to 210 with 30 still to run - sorry in advance, its the numpty in front or that recalcitrant thunderstorm ;) ).

Obviously you'll be flying an A380 for Emirates if we are having a chat because I'm thinking that my time in this wonderful land may be limited to my retirement years if the Slapstick Show from Constitution Ave continues.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Could someone please kindly remind me - what does TIBA stand for?

[peuce]

Traffic Information Broadcasts by Aircraft

[undervaluedATC]

you mean it does not actually stand for

Thoroughly
Incompetant
Bureaucratic
Administration ?

[Roger Standby]

Printed on the back of my doggo shirt...

TIBA is not Aboriginal for Welcome to Australia.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Ah, I think I used to know those as Mandatory Broadcast, as in MBZ. Or is that something different?

[No Further Requirements]

It's like an MBZ, but sometimes hundreds of miles across. And with closing speeds of 1000 knots......

MBZs were promulgated for busy-ish circuit areas. TIBAs a short notice removal of ALL air traffic services - control, alerting, emergency services etc etc. Third world stuff really, right here in Oz.

Have fun.

Cheers,

NFR
The Departed

[BeGoneTFN]

I'm sure someone mentioned OXYGEN THIEF, I'm sorry but from what I've heard that titled is already reserved for a southern district ALM.

On reflection however, I'm sure given we are describing those in the AWB (hope you had a great xmas in july) we can make an exception on this occassion as it really is an apt desciptor!

BgTFN you :mad: wit

[Jabawocky]

NFR
The Departed

Are you off to a land where soil drainage is not a problem?

J:E

[whymefly]

Once upon a time Mr Ford developed the production line, he used it to make lots of cars, then others adapted this for other things.
now 100 years (almost to this week) TFN is trying to use the same theory in ATC.
Thing is TFN doesn't get that the production line could close down for the night, maintenance, when multiple staff get sick, or when the power fails, or any number of other reasons. AND THEN can be started up again where everything stopped.
Sorry Greg, but you obviously don't get the fact that air traffic can't be arranged to always be in an orderly assembly line fashion, coz of: medical flts, emergencies, numerous met conditions, and of course every bl**dy airplane trying to land at the same airport at the same time.
Because of this there has been a workforce of x number of highly qualified professionals hired and trained up to ensure that all of these airplanes actually reach their required destination safely beit early/late/on time.

Maybe those in the AWB may like to review their attitude to their revenue earners (and I'm including the Firies and the techs in this), and improve the conditions they work under.

By this I mean: provide an environment that encourages people to want to work for ASA. IE pay them an internationally competitive wage, provide reasonable and sustainable hours of work and leave entitlements (not neverending requests for overtime, or deferment of rec or long service leave), provide ongoing training to ensure that they remain the best people doing their job, and where reasonable allow the people doing the job to have some input into the way things work (and input doesn't mean yep I heard you thanks for that Yawn bye now).

If ASA doesn't get this, then more will leave for greener (or other) pastures.

Remember, the international market place is changing rapidly and there is still considerable growth in air traffic. And Greg you weren't in the business in the early 80s, but Mr Ronald Reagan gifted the rest of the world masses of qualified ATCOs in the early 80s, their replacements are now also able to take early retirement, but with these guys leaving the game there is no longer a glut or ATCOs in the middle east or anywhere else.

Work it out, our value is only going to go up, and if you don't do something intelligent soon, life in Oz aviation is only going to get worse for the travelling public, and the poor bu**ers who remain in ASA trying to keep up the standards.

I got out recently, but good luck to those still hanging in there.

WMF

[missy]

Australia’s air traffic control agency is relying on hundreds of hours of overtime as it struggles to fill shifts in airport towers, a union analysis of internal rostering documents shows.

The staff union representing the nation’s air traffic controllers, Civil Air, has warned that understaffing problems at Airservices Australia are so severe they threaten to undermine its ability to provide air traffic services.

“The consequences ultimately are a reduction of air service provision, which could mean airspace closures, potentially, or a restriction of services or hours,”, the union’s executive secretary, said. “The potential for that to happen is quite real.”

The claim has been strongly denied by Airservices, which says there is no shortage of air traffic controllers. It says there have been no airspace closures and no reduction in its ability to manage airspace safely and efficiently.

From The Guardian, 23-Jun, Christopher Knaus

[12-47]

Really? Mate of mine reckons they gave $3-500K golden handshakes to 200 or so controllers, many of whom were sitting on 7 figure super packages. Astounding if true.

[NO WAY ASA]

100% true. 2 guys in my tower walked off into the sunset with 400k+ packages - and good luck to them, they’d both out in near 40 years as a controller and were given an offer they couldn’t refuse.

Problem is we are now two controllers short and are struggling everyday to staff the tower. It’s happening all over the country. Unfortunately kids these days don’t want to commit to a career with a 50% failure rate and a 5 year training bond to boot. And to be honest as a controller you are essentially locked into the same career.

[tossbag]

50% ? I heard an entire course failed in the college recently.

[Chris2303]

That's as much a reflection on the instructors as it is on the students

[UnderneathTheRadar]

That's as much a reflection on the instructors as it is on the students
As much? More....and more again on Air No-Services

[tossbag]

That's as much a reflection on the instructors as it is on the students

It could also be a reflection on the selection criteria.