Sydney Ground Frequency Congestion

[emerald city]

Is Anyone else fed up with the congestion on Sydney Ground every evening? When is something going to be done before it grinds to a halt. Last night took the freaking cake!:*

[woftam]

Yes, it appears that whenever it is really busy it is because the two ground frequencies are combined. Why do they seem to do this at peak times? Staff shortages?

[virgindriver]

It's becoming a bit of a joke. We don't really need any more smart comments like "Why doesn't everyone talk at once" either. How are you mean't to get a word in edgeways on 121.7? I don't think it's the pilots' fault.

[Howard Hughes]

I don't have any problems at 3am...;)

[neville_nobody]

Not wishing to reminisce on 'ye good old days' however I think a ramp controller may solve the problem. That way all the pushback congestion is removed.

[greenslopes]

Waddaya expect in a banana republic...trouble is we keep telling all and sundry that we have the best system in the world!.........................yeah whatever.

[noip]

Sorry to seem like a defender of Sydney ATC, but ...

You reeeeeeellllllyyyy need to get out more.

JFK, LAX, LHR, even FRA ( I once spent an hour trying to talk to ATC - ok they had a failure).......

N

[Keg]

At least in SYD they don't favour one carrier over another! You may be able to speak to SIN GND but you won't get a push until SQ has gotten in front of you or otherwise delayed you.

[Yusef Danet]

Keg, that's not the impression non-red tailed driver get.

Many of us feel QF get a home ground advantage at SYD. It's their airport, or so it would seem.

Conversely, I wonder if Bris ATC have a small soft spot for VB.

[greenslopes]

Yes Noip I have been around and have the privelage of working in other areas, namely LHR,CDG etc and for the number of movements SY does get extremely bogged down....My point being will Oz atc ever acomodate that other folk around the world do the job as well if not better.

[Dragun]

That one controller with the deep voice and cuts the 'H' off his words really bugs. Full of smart @rse comments and attitude. Quite obviously on a powertrip, full of non-standard phraseology and a terrible controller to boot. Must be very annoyed at his paypacket.

" 'old short 25 and don't speak over me next time"...

BIT HARD WHEN YOU'RE TAXIING OFF THE RUNWAY AND YOU DON'T HEAR ANYTHING FOR A FEW SECONDS BECAUSE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY STRUGGLING TO WORK OUT WHAT TO DO BUDDY!! :mad:

[DoctorBoner]

My point being will Oz atc ever acomodate that other folk around the world do the job as well if not better.

Horsesh!t

I am an OZ atc and the crap the end user, the pilots get is, pathetic for a first world nation of such wealth. It is a friggin embarrassment.

Don't put this on the head of the fella/gal on the other end of the radio. We do the best with what we have got and get from the fools up top. The tossers in the ivory tower crow on about their world leading (insert project here) but can't even staff the bloody sectors.

[aussiegal]

Unfortunately, if it's the "busy" period then by its very nature the freq is going to be congested. I am sure the controllers do the best they can to get the tfc moving and smart comments by either party are an unwelcome distraction. Put yourself in the grd controllers position, they are monitoring the position of multiple acft and trying to sequence them out in a manner such that the taxiways aren't blocked, you are one acft of many and as such your movement on the apron or taxiway is simply a matter of priorities. From an atc point of view the priority is the acft already moving, if you're stationary, you wait.

[benjam]

I think they're pretty good. Here's to you Syd ATC.:D

[missy]

Is Anyone else fed up with the congestion on Sydney Ground every evening?

Yep, all of the ground controllers and their supervisors.

If anyone has some constructive ideas then I'm sure they would be considered.

Asking for their airways clearance more than 10 minutes in advance does the ground controllers no favours. It just means that there are more flight progress strips that they need to search before they can find your details, confirm the bay you said is what is already on the strip, work out the traffic relevant to your flight then respond.

Perhaps pilots should nominate the ATIS at ACD before asking for airways clearance. This would alleviate some of the chatter on 121.7. If we could rely on aircraft being on the bay they said they were on (at ACD) then perhaps giving the bay number and destination on 121.7 could be eliminated.

Recent (internal) discussions have centred on using a metering position so that after ACD you would talk to this position who would then release you to the Ground controller when the Ground controller was able to process you.

The processing of DOM2 and especially DOM3 apron traffic is difficult by the mix of companies and aircraft types. The cluster scheduling of the turbo props during the evening burst, especially in the 34 direction with aircraft going via the Glenfield SID means that the Ground controller simply runs out of holding points. The relocation of the holding points to 107.5m hasn't assisted either as now more and more intersections are blocked because the traffic northbound on TWY B won't taxi behind someone holding short of RWY 16R/34L.

Competing interests vying for use of the frequency operating from T2 that is operating at or beyond capacity. Any hiccups with delays, u/s aircraft, etc means bay occupied or a cascade of bay changes.

The SMR (Ground radar) is not able to alert the controller that the bay is occupied and if the bay changes then the system is not able to update the display. So even though you might say the new bay the ground label will display the old label. Very hard to disregard a key piece of information that in this case is actually wrong. Also, all the outbound aircraft need to be manually labelled by the Ground Controller. Find the aircraft in a list, highlight the aircraft, roll the track ball (mouse) over the aircraft on the display and then select!! That is for each and every departure. At least with ASMGCS this will be automated. Initial indications were that ASMGCS would be commissioned about now but it is some months away.

Generally it is those pilots who have taken the time to visit the Tower and actually plug and listen to ground when it is busy who fully appreciate the range of things that the ground controller needs to pay attention to.

If you would like to contribute then please sent me a PM. All responses will be acknowledged and if we can work something out that works then everyone will be a winner.

Missy

[Bedder believeit]

Missy, I wouldn't waste my time trying to justify your job to some of these turkeys. It has always amazed me that Aussie pilots (big generalisation here) think that they are the best in the World, and yet (some) think that Aussie controllers are second rate. Well let me say, that having worked in Oz for 20 years (including SY) then Dubai and Hong Kong for the last 18 years (not exactly sleepy hollows) and worked with controllers from just about every first world country that there is, I would put the controllers produced in Australia and New Zealand, at the top of the pile. Sure, there will be the odd jerk who will upset the astronauts (and us) with the odd smart remark, after all not everyone in a system is perfect. I could generalise, about what a bunch of idiots most American pilots seem to be, and believe me, just about every time one comes on the frequency they increase the workload two-fold, but hell, in the cockpit they might just be the bee's knees. I don't know what their "pole" skills are like, but I do know that they can be twice as difficult to deal with (incorrect read backs, taking wrong turns, taxying past clearance points etc) than some mainland Chinese pilot who can barely speak English.
By the way, we have recently commissioned the ASMGCS in Hong Kong and it beats the crap out of the old SMR that we had to manually tag up all the time.
Also, when are some of you people going to get off this "In Singapore (or where ever)...Singapore Airlines blah, blah, blah..." I have never ever seen or witnessed a controller anywhere favouring a home carrier. It's not practical. How can you say (Keg) that SQ gets in front of you when there may be 10 SQ's behind you. Controllers just try and shuffle their cards to create the easiest traffic resolution for themselves and their colleagues. The silly thing is, is that Cathay pilots say to me, "why don't you give us a bit of priority here (in HK)" and yet I'm sure that there are people around who say "In HK, the controllers are always favouring Cathay". Get real.

[Tower Girl]

Missy, the problem is that you just keep talking about it and never action any of the many suggestions that the controllers give to you and the other supervisors. Stop lecturing like a sage old sole and start managing before more controllers go down in a screaming heap.:ugh:

[Jenna Talia]

Missy,

Thank you for your descriptive and well written response.

If anyone has some constructive ideas then I'm sure they would be considered.

The first matter is to have that previously mentioned controller stop speaking to pilots like we are pigs whether he is on Ground or either Tower frequencies. I don't care how frustrating it gets. He is way out of line and behaves the same during quite times. It is also a disgrace that his supervisor allows it to happen. A Captain would never let a FO get away with that neither would a Flt Ops dept if the situation were reversed. I take it you know who he is as he appears the only one who does it. Decency prevents me from describing on this post what I would do to him if he spoke to me the same way outside of his tower environment.

If you know who he is than pass on my congratulations for his attempts to create an Us and Them environment.

The shame of it is I find all of the other controllers are totally opposite and great.

JT

[woftam]

Refer to post #2. Again I ask why do they combine both ground frequencies at what appears to be peak times? That is half the problem in my opinion. No wonder you can't get a word in. And yes, I DO think the controllers do a great job in most cases. It does get frustrating however waiting for a clearance to cross 07/25 on "Bravo" from the south when there is an A/C on short final for 16R and 07/25 is not a duty runway. Why the delay in getting a clearance to cross? :rolleyes:

[Awol57]

WOFTAM my guess is the controller shortage. Do you actually think 1 bloke (or gal) wants to do both those frequencies?!

I don't work at Sydney so I am not familar with the layout there, but I do work at another busy tower. The Aerodrome controller (or "Tower") owns the active runways, so the SMC has to ask to cross it. I assume this runway is active since you need a clearance to cross it. The runway may be released to the SMC for crossings and the like, but I don't know if that is the case at Sydney. Each aerodrome does things a bit differently.

Normally the main reason you can't ask is the other guy is busy doing something, or just doesn't answer you for whatever reason. If the SMC crosses that runway without permission, you will hear a lot more silence and not be going anywhere really fast.

[emerald city]

JT, from what I've heard the controllers hate him too. Apparently he is just a miserable old pig but management don't seem to realize that it is their job to keep him in his pig pen.

Had a quiet chat with one of the boys the other night. As far as the controller shortage goes I hear Sydney Tower is about to lose 5 more controllers, two to Dubai and maybe more to follow.

Woftam, my source told me the supervisors load up the controllers by combining the positions so that they can sit with their feet up doing paperwork. One supervisor is particularly good at sitting on the computer taking care of personal business while controllers sink under their workload.

I also heard a number of controllers have been stood down in recent days due to making mistakes after being overloaded. Ya gotta feel for the poor buggers.

Sounds to me like the controllers are being let down big time. :eek:

[missy]

Refer to post #2. Again I ask why do they combine both ground frequencies at what appears to be peak times?

From my experience Sydney Ground is split between 6am and about 1pm and from 2:30pm til at least 7:30pm. There are sometimes exceptions to the rule (Saturday arvo) but certainly it is being split more and more rather than less and less.

[GaryGnu]

Missy,

My (hopefully) constructive suggestion, would be to:

1. Reinstate the previous less onerous readback requirements. You know the ones - taxi clearance limit, hold short and crossing instructions. That doesn't mean to reduce the scope of instructions from the controller.

2. Start a strong education campaign with all operators about the reduced readback requirements. e.g a flyer as has been done recently with the TIBA procedures. Even if only the domestic operators comply then it has to be of some benefit.

My non-constructive/destructive suggestion, install a "follow the greens system" for night time ops:E. I know about the costs and bodies required!.

When the increased readback requirements were published the first thought I had was of Sydney on a busy day. I know there might be some bigger picture stuff that I am not aware of but those are my thoughts.

[Howard Hughes]

I thought the idea of the standard taxi routes was to alleviate some of the radio congestion (ie: Big Boy 412 clear to taxi, hold short of 25)? Although at the risk of answering my own question it does seem most of the congestion is from those entering/leaving the apron and waiting for bays to become available

[Ivasrus]

Comparing with other major international airports, they all have the terminals INSIDE the parallel runways. Makes taxiing and holding points a lot easier to manage. The SYD TWR controllers have an unenviable amount of runway crossings to deal with, let alone directors not feeding the required spacing, so give them a break.