Lockheed Electra

[411A]

Our company has the opportunity to purchase 4 Lockheed L188 freighters, and we just might put 'em to work, if certain conditions are met.

Does anyone have the typical fuel consumption in climb and cruise?
Also, max payload would be helpful.

Just might be able to put a few crews to work if the numbers pan out...especially fuel cost.

[mierda]

Call Atlantic Airlines in Coventry UK, I think they operate Electras

[The Pig]

You can email them at [email protected]

They currently operate 6 examples of the L188 here in Europe.

[Lowrider2]

:ok: From what I can remember they will burn approx. 3000 to 4000 lbs an hour at cruise (average total) and can carry nearly 40,000 lbs of cargo.
Still one of my favorite aircraft and will fly for ever if they are maintained.
If you don't stay on top of the maintenance they will kick your butt. They are not hard to maintain but again don't let them get ahead of you.

[forget]

Our company has the opportunity to purchase 4 Lockheed L188 freighters,

Two crew or three crew?

[RampTramp]

Forget,

As far as I know, the 2 man crew is a UK CAA dispensation, not sure if the FAA ever bought into it.

[411A]

As far as I know, the 2 man crew is a UK CAA dispensation, not sure if the FAA ever bought into it.

No, the FAA never did.
In FAA-land, three FD crew, minimum.

[forget]

See 'Reeve Illusion'. (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Reeve-Illusion-(Atlantic/Lockheed-L-188C(PF)-Electra/0895492&tbl=photo_info&photo_nr=3&sok=WHERE__%28reg_%3D_%27N2RK%27%29_&sort=_order_by_photo_id_DESC_&prev_id=0938867&next_id=0832962) Don't ask.

[A and C]

With a typical load the fuel burn was 5000Lb for the first hour and 4000Lb for each hour after that.

I have to agree with all that Lowrider says, it is still the best airliner that I have flown for the pure pleasure of hand flying.

[411A]

Thanks for the info, folks.
We have sent out our tech rep to have a look at the aircraft, and he is an Electra maintenance expert, from the ONA days....long ago.

*ONA, Overseas National Airways, a very long time Electra operator.
They made a pile of dough with these airplanes....perhaps, in these times of higher fuel costs, they can be put back to work, earning their keep.
Sure hope so.
Find a niche...and fill it.:ok:

[Aeroguy757777]

Two crew Electra's, they must be crazy! They are were not designed to fly without a FE.

[forget]

They are were not designed to fly without a FE.

Correct. Then they were re-designed to fly without a FE.

[CargoOne]

I've seen Atlantic Electras are 2-crew with modified cockpit. Is that a 3-rd party STC, not Lockheed?

[Lowrider2]

Do these planes have Hamilton Standard props or Aero Products Props?

There is an outfit in Jacksonville Florida called Merc Air I believe, that is run by Don Deyo who still does maintenance on Electra's and would be my choice to evaluate the aircraft. He still conducts training courses on the aircraft and overhauls parts.

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

411A,,
Is the proposed ops in the U.S.? There may be a market for it.
Drop me a line as I have a few ideas on the matter.
I am a Logistics, Transportation consultant in my spare time.
SFD.

[Flight Detent]

Errrr....

by "2 crew" I hope he means Captain and Flight Engineer...

anything else would be, well, silly.

Cheers...FD...:mad:

[Saturn]

Hey 411a check your PM's. I will come fly for you tmo.

[XL5]

A Google map search of KYIP (perhaps should be renamed KRIP) shows a bunch of Electras lined up with several DC8s - Zantop logo type. Bet they have the information you're after although at the current rate of bankruptcy Zantop may well have gone the way of the dinosaur should the picture not be somewhat recent.

Edit: After a second look, one of the DC8s is a cannibalized TransCon and some of the the Electras are missing engines and props. It would seem that the grim reaper of economic viability has left his mark and that Google has photographed a boneyard.

[XL5]

Flight DetentErrrr....

by "2 crew" I hope he means Captain and Flight Engineer...

anything else would be, well, silly.

Cheers...FD...:mad:

Errrr....surely you mean Captain and Second Officer? Anything else would be, well, totally redundant.

[Aeroguy757777]

I totally agree with flight detent, it's suicide to fly an Electra without FE!

[forget]

Aeroguy757777, Will your third and subsequent ( :uhoh: ) posts make such edifying reading?

[JennyB]

Wouldn't say it was suicide to fly an Electra with 2 crew, they can always take a flask of tea with them.

[stanstedsteve]

Quite often seen at Stansted Essex UK, on the alphas cargo stands, used for mail runs, great planes they sometimes need an airstart to get them going.

[Michael Ochsbigg]

Well, what a machine! I spent 7 years flying around Europe in it- it's the best handling machine I've flown so far.
To chuck in my two pence worth - our company used 100lbs per minute in the climb. In the cruise, assuming a max take-off weight of 116000lbs, fuel burn started at 5000lbs per hour decreasing by approx 200lbs per each flying hour thereafter with an endurance of up to 9 hours.

Max payload obviously depended on the dry operating weight of each airframe but max payload is generally considered to be 32000lbs (14.5 metric tons)

Regarding the 2 crew operation - Lockheed originally designed it to be operated by 2 crew, ie captain and first/second officer, but the unions in the USA at the time wouldn't allow it so Lockheed had to give the FEs a job hence a 3 crew op.

Airspray Canada were the first company to operate the Electra with 2 crew as the Canadian CAA were the first to approve it. Based on that, the UK CAA also allowed it to happen. The modification is simply to duplicate a couple of circuit breakers near the captain so that he can operate them in accordance with any abnormal check-list that requires it.

From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.

[forget]

From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.

Aeroguy757777, you're on! :uhoh:

[Aeroguy757777]

CRM issues with a FE, you need to tell your boss to hire some proper FE's. They have saved and will save many pilots lives. Most pilots have a very limited knowledge about the aircraft they're flying and a good FE will keep them out of trouble.

[Sid Starz]

Here we go again......

:ugh:

[Dengue_Dude]

My experience of 3 man crew ops and CRM issues is true.

Nobody wants to be first to take a piss because he KNOWS the other two are going to talk about him!

Single pilot ops is best - the skipper flying with all his mates :)

[A and C]

Two crew Electra's are just fine 98% of the time but when the work load is high and a technical problem rears it's head you are going to need the engineer or things will get forgotten. As we all know that is when accidents happen.

It is interesting that two of the three UK opperators did not take away the flight engineer when they could have saved a lot of money by doing so, I can only conclude that they had flight safety reasons for doing so.

As to the comment about the FE being the sorce of CRM problems, this is one of the strangest comments that I have seen on these pages over the years, I would love to see the hard evidence to back up that statement.

[Sid Starz]

This really is just raking up old previously discussed issues - search back for the Electra at Cologne thread for the full debate. Suffice to say, the Canadians allowed 2 crew operation first in arguably more challenging flying situations that Atlantic's. The FAA, UK CAA and Lockheed were all involved in the planning and implementation of Atlantic's 2 crew STC.

There is always an argument for the 3rd person on the flightdeck - however in this case I can say with experience that in my opinion, 2 crew worked well - anyone who hasnt experienced it just has to understand that. I experienced both 3 and 2 crew and so I believe I am qualified to comment on the matter.

[JennyB]

A and C,

The only remaining UK operator of the Electra is the one that has gone two crew, also think that you will find most of the serious incidents were with the 3 crew Electras operators.

[Lowrider2]

"JB" I think that is because the 3 crew operaters were around much longer than the two crew and the only operation going on at this time is really the two op.

[A and C]

I can see your reasons for thinking that the 2 crew Electra worked well and respect your reasoned veiws, however for me the workload when things go wrong is just that little bit too high for 2 crew. I suspect it depends on how you do the risk assesment.

JennyB

Your points are not very well put and seem to be based on a rather "rose tinted" veiw of the 2 crew Electra, I suspect if you had been painted into a corner by circumstance when flying the Electra you mght be taking a more balanced veiw of the work load reqired to keep the operation safe (Sid Stars is and he seems better placed than most to comment).

I remember a vey old BA 707 skipper telling me that no on needs a Flight Engineer when things are going well but you can,t do without one when the sh1t hitts the fan!

[CargoOne]

I could be wrong but I heard somewhere what Electra was originally certified with 3-man cockpit purely due to an old FAA rule requiring FE on aircraft over 80000 lbs MTOW?

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote CargoOne
I could be wrong but I heard somewhere what Electra was originally certified with 3-man cockpit purely due to an old FAA rule requiring FE on aircraft over 80000 lbs MTOW?
Not without good reason apparently.
Be lucky
David

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I believe that many airlines in the (a long time ago) US were operating the 737 and DC9 with FE's due to union scope clauses. How you have an FE in one of these planes is a mystery.

So, who's trying to sell their Electra's then? I would have thought the old Zantop planes had been standing for too long to be viable?

[Bigt]

Whilst the debate `rages` about the cockpit area I would be keen to hear views from those who loaded the aircraft. Ive seen them with cargo doors fore of the wing and aft of the wing and some with both doors. Any good reasoning for this?

[Saturn]

I don't think there are many left other than the six at Atlantic. Zantop or whomever is chopping up all the birds in Yipsilanti Michigan I think. The Reeve birds are all, well except one, at Air Spray. The simulator in Seattle is still being used by Atlantic. I do not think there are any pax airplanes left as I think Air Spray used them for parts. The combi at Coventry has no book/manuals for it so it sits idle. I would love to fly her but it will be tough.

[stellair]

YouTube - Lockheed Electra start up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ECu_-SOKo)

For those of you that need to forget the 2/3 crew bull**** and remember how aviation used to sound :ok:

[Lostinspace]

Why are the engines upside down?

[Dorfer]

"Why are the engines upside down?"

They arent, its the world thats up-side-down. :}:}:}

[411A]

could be wrong but I heard somewhere what Electra was originally certified with 3-man cockpit purely due to an old FAA rule requiring FE on aircraft over 80000 lbs MTOW?

No, not wrong...correct.
An old regulation from the post DC-4 days.
Gosh, CargoOne, you must be older than dirt...just like me.:}

[411A]

Ok, preliminary indications are...at least three are flyable, with fairly good time until the next heavy checks.
This project looks like a starter.
Funding in the works now.
Thanks folks for all the help, greatly appreciated.
CV's will be requested in due course, on 350, when details finalized.
AOC already available.
Base, west Africa.
Possibly also...Kuwait.

[Flight Detent]

Just wondering...

Has the 2-man conversion (:mad:) moved the position of the starter button and fuel/ignition switches, and do these airplanes have the "start valve" light mod?
I think it would be very difficult not to compromise the normal engine starting procedure without being able to:
1/ easily reach the abovementioned button and switches,
2/ being able to read the bleed air manifold pressure gauge at starter cutout,
3/ monitoring the fuel/ignition switch when shifting from low to normal RPM or viceversa.

And many other details that I consider essential for normal/safe operation!!

Also, I'd love to witness a windmill start on the runway with a 2-man crew!!

Cheers (I think)...FD...:uhoh:

Oh..I almost forgot, the engines are not upside down, it's just that the gearbox is that way with reference to the C-130.

Interesting....Kuwait...spent quite some time there, 3 years, operating B727 and B747 for Kuwait Airways up to late '94.
Bet it's changed a lot since this Iraqi war has started........

[G&T ice n slice]

No, THIS is a propper aeroplane

YouTube - DC7 running up engines to max power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui076ypBZYg&feature=related)


(hope i got the link write)

[Saturn]

I'm ready! Packing my bags now. Can't see there being many L188 drivers available.

[411A]

Can't see there being many L188 drivers available.

Want to bet?:rolleyes:

[stellair]

Can't see there being many L188 drivers available

I'll also take that bet.........

And the tax free Capt pay is ?????...........:confused::E

[NG_Kaptain]

"YouTube - Lockheed Electra start up

For those of you that need to forget the 2/3 crew bull**** and remember how aviation used to sound"

Sweet!!!!:)
One of my early companies had two DC6's and one Electra. I flew the DC6 (as FE).
Now have a window seat.

[saffron]

411A pay particular attention to the wings;they are of an unusual construction,basically made out milled aluminium planks which have a habit of corroding,very expensive to replace (the wings strength is in the planks) Your surveyor should particularly watch out for corrosion here,it can be very subtle. Worked for Air Contractors who used to operate the beast,good a/c but as has allready been said you must have top notch engineers & a generous maintenance budget (whatever your budget was ,double it,trust me!)

[411A]

And the tax free Capt pay is ?????...........

To be decided...however, rest assured that top notch tax-free salaries together with 4/5 star accomodation.
Make no mistake, the crews (both maintenance and FD) are the heart of the proposed operation, and will be compensated accordingly.

Yours truly will have it no other way.
Period.

However, whiners need not apply (when the time comes, that is...:E

The Colonel and I have learned a long time ago that the best should be paid well for their efforts.

[Saturn]

Sounds good to me. I really wanna fly that L188. There may be some L188 drivers but am curious about flexiblity and living in said domiciles. Again, I am ready today.

[glhcarl]

411A pay particular attention to the wings;they are of an unusual construction,basically made out milled aluminium planks which have a habit of corroding,very expensive to replace (the wings strength is in the planks) Your surveyor should particularly watch out for corrosion here,it can be very subtle. Worked for Air Contractors who used to operate the beast,good a/c but as has allready been said you must have top notch engineers & a generous maintenance budget (whatever your budget was ,double it,trust me!)
What is unusal about Electra wings being made out of milled aluminum planks? Name me one large transport aircraft (except for the 787) that doesn't have wings made from milled aluminum planks! Additionally, the wings get their stength from the spars, stringers, webs, and milled planks (skins) all working together.

As for corrosion, the last Electra left the production line 50 years ago. You will find corrosion on all 50 year old aircraft.

[WhalePFE]

From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.

You have got to be S...... me! I flew the "mighty orion" as an FE for 22 years and no Captain in his right mind would fly without an FE. It is truely am awesome airplane. Definately a three man cockpit. Maybe the CRM issues were from the right seat???;)

[CR2]

411A... Loadmasters ? :E

[Flight Detent]

Hey WhalePFE,
We probably have a lot of experiences in common, I'm a 10 year operator of the P3B/C for the RAAF, retired from there in 87 to fly B727.

You're absolutely right, an awesome airplane!

You might like to PM me, we may have crossed paths somewhere!

I've worked with VP-4 and VP-31, as well as the annual RIMPAC exercises out of Hawaii.

Cheers...FD...:ok:

[WhalePFE]

FD

PM in your box! I flew as an FE from 88-05 in squadrons on both coasts and all over the world.:ok:

WhalePFE

[Top Loadie]

I know a few excellent L188 loadies who may be interested...

:cool:

[phantom32068]

If you are looking for the one main person in the world that knows more about the electra and teaches L-188 ground schools and knows where all the L-188 are and is ferry L-188 today, and he also is the main parts supply for the L-188 is Mr Don Deyo of Merse Air. The number is 904-786-7200, Fax No. 904-781-5676 and can supply all the preformance numbers you want and usefull load pay loads and data you are interested in. He also furnishes ferry crews and maint. personal for the aircraft. He knows both P-3 and L-188 thoughly.

[411A]

411A... Loadmasters ? :E
__________________
CR2


Quite likely, eventually.

[Earl]

Quote Michael Oshshbigg:

From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.

Earl:
Wow seen some same issues in the sim with Saudia back in 2006.
Never did quite know what happened to these
Bangladeshis that had a problem with a F/E and CRM.
But they just went back home for some reason., bet they know why now!

[freighterone]

To specifically answer your question 411A the following may be helpful:

MTOW: 113,000 Lbs (51,255Kgs)
MZFW: 90,000Lbs (40,823Kgs)

Usuable fuel: 5,520 US galls.

Max Structual Payload: 30,645 Lbs (13,900Kgs)

Fuel:
Start and taxy: 300 Lbs
T/O & Initial climb: 200 Lbs
Final manoeuvre: 300 Lbs

Climb F/F: ISA + 10 5,180 PPH at MTOW

Max. Alt at MTOW: ISA + 10 21,000' (37 mins)
ISA + 20 18,000' (34 mins)

Cruise F/F: ISA + 10, MTOW & TOCW (104,750Lbs): 4,000PPH

Air NM/1,000 Lbs on cruise at TOCW 104,750Lbs: 78.5

Average descent fuel: 550 Lbs.

Holding F/F: 3,600PPH

Also the wing planks were a structual problem and needed ultra sound checks on a regular basis due to cracks occuring or existing cracks getting larger.

Good luck with the venture if it goes ahead.

[Fred Gassit]

How fast are they? I've been told 3rd hand up to 350-380kts TAS, sounds like a fun machine.

[fastener]

To wrench, the Electra is a Babe!!! I loved working on them. If you do not stay on top of them they will run away reliability wise and cause you much pain and suffering. You MUST get a survey done by by someone who knows these machines intimately or you will have problems. Due to the age of the components etc you will have many " Why the F^&ck is it doing that"? moments. They are not fire and forgets and need to be looked after 100% or the operation will suffer. You will need very good engineering staff and lots of spares.

[Earl]

Good link with some specs.
Lockheed L-188 Electra - Aero Favourites! (http://aerofavourites.nl/locele03.htm)

[corsair]

Ah, the Electra. That start up video brought it all back. But for a twist (of the dagger) of fate. :sad: I would have started my career in the right seat of one of those fabulous aircraft. As it is my memorable highlight remains taking the right seat alongside two ground Engineers as we started up and taxied out for a compass swing. A marvellous moment for a then inexperienced light aircraft pilot to be sitting on the flight deck of a four engined turboprop with all the provenance of the Electra.

They had their maintenance problems though. Many is the three engine ferry I remember. Not to mention the issue with the wings mentioned earlier.

Great aeroplane though.

[Saturn]

Check your pms, aol mail, yahoo mail and climb350. Thanks again.

[Saturn]

Does he have a website? Thanks.

[Stearperson]

The only Electras flown in the states with 2 pilot crews that I know of are actually P-3s.
Firefighting P-3s regularly fly in the US with just 2 pilots on board.
The FAA began allowing this in 1990 with 2 type rated pilots.
This rule was modified after a short time to allow only the captain to be type rated.
I flew these planes for several years with good results and did not see a need for an F.E.

4000 punds per hour is a good figure and 300 kts is the cruise speed one would expect.

[captainwillie1]

Zantop ceased flight operations in the mid 90's except for a couple tired DC 8's, which were operated on a seperate certificate. The hanger is still there, as well as a few airframes and engines. I understand the company had a lot of spare parts, not sure if they have been liquidated yet or not.

I flew the Electra for about 8 years. Great airplane. Yes, the 5,000 the first hour and 4,000 an hour thereafter is a good estimate on fuel burn. If I remember correctly, we could put about 30,000 pounds in the back plus three hours of fuel. Or, 30,0000 pounds of fuel and 2,000 pounds of ballast in the back. Yep, thats seven hours of fuel at normal cruise.

We operated the Electras on a hub and spoke in the US, similar to a UPS operation, but hauling oversize/overweight cargo. It was also popular in Europe and we wet leased aircraft and crews to Channel Express, who was and may still be an Electra operator. Have flown this bird in Europe for UPS, TNT, and Channel. Amera (Emera?) Aire, out of Vienna also still uses L188's, so ya might give them a call.

No, ya need 3 to fly this plane. Anyone operating without FE's is nuts, as he is the busiest person aboard.

ONA? Man, that goes back a ways. I started driving this bird back in 87 and that was way before then.

Let me know if ya need any more info. I have an old Zantop flight manual, if I can find it. And ten years of war stories....ha ha ha.

Captain Willie

[Sid Starz]

Busy doing what exactly?? A lot of F/E's made a huge thing of playing with oil cooler flaps, when if you just leave them faired on the ground and at 20% once airborne you can just leave them there. Or maybe busy accidentally switching off engines instead of switching on engine anti ice...?
I respect your opinion about needing the F/E if you haven't seen two crew. Believe me though, its great, its more enjoyable, its easier and when you get the chance, if the F/E will let you (!) just try some 2 crew operation and see for yourself how it works.

[411A]

Three versus two, an endless debate....although, having said this, I have always found the professional Flight Engineer a very valuable asset...BAR NONE.

Younger guys...perhaps don't have a clue.
Not trying to judge one way or t'other, just my experience, which stretches over thirty five years with the PFE.
Don't leave base without one....is my motto, and that is how we will run our proposed operation.
411A will be the flight ops director, and will have it NO other way.
Period.

[mmeteesside]

Amerer Air sold their L188's a little while ago, they only have a Fokker 27 and a 146 (saw they added that recently) now. Operating for TNT I think.

[dixi188]

Capt Willie 1.
Channel retired their last Electra in 2002 or 3 I think.
The only European operator still with the old gals is Atlantic Cargo Airlines of Coventry UK.

Did I fly with you in the early days of Channex Electra's in 1990 or 91?
The only Zantop Willie I can think of is Bill Slocombe. Is that you?

[teaboy1]

I think we should move with modern technology, and yes the F/E is finished. Next to go will be one of you experts, then the other one will be gone..The L188C will be long gone also. Next thing you know there will be a predator technology. Goodbye to you all, you will cut your own throat's to save your own lives.Then guess what, it will be an engineer sitting in that seat on the ground.

[phantom32068]

The person that knows where and how much and has the spare parts for the electra Is Don Deyo Jax Fla. 904-786-7200. There are two weights on the electra, depending on which gear it has on it. So when you are figureing the weights you have two different ones to figure on. I have to disagree with the person that said two seats are better than three. Having over 10,000 hrs turbo prop time. The P-3 fire bomber that went down had two seats. For the fuel burn and the realiability and weight carried, there is no other aircraft in its class tat can come close to it. Once again the man that can answer any question on the Electra is Don Deyo.

[JennyB]

"Not trying to judge one way or t'other, just my experience, which stretches over thirty five years with the PFE."

And your experience of either 2 or 3 Electra operations is how extensive??

[Flyinghighest]

I can't claim to have all the experience since I'm fairly recent on the Mighty Electra as an engineer working for the UK based cargo airline.

So far I've had the pleasure of sitting along their aircraft a fair few times now but all I end up doing is yawning because the mod they did has taken all the necesity out of having a FE onboard. And to be honest the difference in quality of maintenance you can get out of a travel weary FE compared to a well rested engineer waiting on the ground is not to be underappreciated.

And I've even had time to see my first apparent (it was gear box) engine failure and the pilots didn't get particularly upset about it. Very well managed indeed.

Sure, the FE fills a purpose but to say that it's dangerous to fly without one seems, to me, to be a stretch.

I'm very curious to see what happens with this new venture though. The Electra is a lovely aircraft and deserves to be in the sky, not retired.

That's my 2 cents...:)

[phantom32068]

The three electra's came on line and grew to 9 electras and after comming from CAM Air which had 9 electra's and being the DO of Training and Cheif FE for two Airlines with Electra's and over 10,000 hrs both P-3/ Electra, I think I think I am qualified.

[JennyB]

phantom32068

Think you'll find i was quoting 411A, if you actually read my message.

And Chief F/E? So no obvious experience of Lockheed Electra 2 crew operations then, would be something akin to Turkeys voting for Christmas to expect you to find anything good about a 2 crew operation.

The P3 firebomber that came down had a 2 crew operation? Care to mention all the crashes that the Electra has had with 3 crew?

[saffron]

glh carl,
there is a big difference between a skin and a plank,any electra engineer knows that the wing is not of the usual airliner constuction,these planks have had a corrosion problem. Because the planks are much thicker than your average wing skin they have a much greater stuctural load,the corresponding spars & stringers are lighter,an engineering trade off,whilst it is not economical or practical to reskin an airliner wing,many electras have had their wings replanked.

[glhcarl]

Saffron:
there is a big difference between a skin and a plank,any electra engineer knows that the wing is not of the usual airliner constuction,these planks have had a corrosion problem. Because the planks are much thicker than your average wing skin they have a much greater stuctural load,the corresponding spars & stringers are lighter,an engineering trade off,whilst it is not economical or practical to reskin an airliner wing,many electras have had their wings replanked
The Electra wing planks as you call then are the wing skins. Large aircraft wing skins range in thickness from 1/4" to 3/4" and are machined from large planks of aluminum. If I remember correctly the Electra planks are 1/4" to 3/8" thick from inboard to outboard. As for the corrosion problems, name me one Lockheed aircraft that hasn't had wing corrosion problems?

Again I ask you to name me one large aircraft that doesn't use machined planks as wing skins?

By the way one of my job at Lockheed, for a short period of time, was at the Electra desk in the product support center.

[tonytech2]

The L188 wing is an extreme example of the use of milled skin. The planks were hogged out to on the inside to include integral risers (stiffeners) by giant milling machines and then stretched to removed the warping this induced. I worked Electras at Lockheed New York during Project Uptilt which changed the angle at which the engines were mounted to the wing to reduce the horrendous vibration. Of course, they then required later reworks of the engine mounts and wing due to the whirl mode failures causing loss of several aircraft.
Later I was at EAL at JFK on the Electra phase check line. Lockheed rep told us that they had found milled risers cracking off the planks, in some cases as much as 30-feet - that is feet - these were on some foreign reg aircraft whose owners didn't believe in inspection.
The EAL Electras had doubler patches all over the wings and inside the dry bays the landing gear trusses which were forgings had a lot of repairs as well. Only the small need apply to get into the little access door in the trailing edge.
When I was acting manager at DCA I escorted a Navy P3 squadron commander out to look at an Electra - (the predecessor of his aircraft).
His comment, on seeing all the doubler and tripler repairs on the wings was, "Holy Sh--t, it must have done thirty missions over Hanoi." He couldn't believe all the patches.
At Newark in late 70's, Zantop asked to borrow our hangar to repair an Electra - they were fueling it and had noticed a waterfall coming out from under one wing - one plank had actually broken right across. Completely severed. It took a very large triple-layered repair taking a couple of weeks to engineer and install.
So keep a very close eye on your structure.

[glhcarl]

tonytech2,

Thank you, you did a lot better job describing the Electra's milled wing plank than I did.

[Newforest2]

This company is advertising a L.188 flight simulator for sale.

Retro Aviation (http://retroaviation.com/index.htm)

[NG_Kaptain]

Go and look at the military section at Airline Pilot Central, there is a thread on a P3 that survived a 5 turn spin from 5,500ft and some interesting photos of what the wing survived and still got the guys home. :)

[411A]

Latest news.
Electra is out due to really far advanced corrosion.
What is in?

Valsan modified B727.
Three aircraft planned.
Advertising for crews will begin in due course.

[CargoOne]

727 startup those days? Is that for cocaine or diamonds traffic?

[JammedStab]

So if I come over onto the 72, what are the chances of eventually moving to the L10?

[411A]

So if I come over onto the 72, what are the chances of eventually moving to the L10?

Possible...however, the B767 is a better possibility.

[JennyB]

" Valsan modified B727.
Three aircraft planned.
Advertising for crews will begin in due course."

Please make yourselves comfortable Ladies and Gentlemen, the first flights for Walter Mitty Airlines are preparing for takeoff

[Saturn]

I was getting my hopes up on the L188. really bummed. 727 it is then. I figured it would be hard to get the old girl flying again. Sad really.:{

[Newforest2]

An old report on the Valsan conversion for those of us less familiar with it.

BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY: Advances; Rebuilding Planes to Cut Airport Noise - New York Times (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DE1F3AF93BA25752C1A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all)

[OldCessna]

Hey 411A what about the L1011F

There's 2 on the market

[411A]

Hey 411A what about the L1011F
There's 2 on the market

Even more, actually, however...the airplane is too large for our (present) proposed freight operation and...they are owned by an absolute d*ckhead which we will absolutely not do business with, under any circumstances..

[OldCessna]

No the 2 available are now not owned by said "d...head"

[411A]

...the 2 available are now not owned by said "d...head"

Oh yes, now I remember, yes these are available.
I will check and find out, as it might be viable, if the volume of uplift is as anticipated...our guy in LIS is checking on this now.
We are attempting to combine this project with a north American one, to make it more attractive to additional investors.

[galaxy flyer]

411A

It is indeed a sad day to hear that you are moving to a Boeing product. :ouch:

[411A]

It is indeed a sad day to hear that you are moving to a Boeing product.

Fuel costs call the tune.
Now, having said this, the Electra might yet get a second chance, if the corrosion and wiring issues can be overcome.
Not sure yet, still under intense discussion.

[Saturn]

I am keeping my fingers crossed! Where are these L188's out of curiosity? And is that sim in Seattle still working???

[Toddes21]

Hi,

Sim in Seattle is working brilliantly due to a very talented ex-Raf engineer that has pulled her back from the brink, I was there recently and she never fell over once. Is now owned and operated by Atlantic Airlines. :ok:

[glhcarl]

Fuel costs call the tune.
Now, having said this, the Electra might yet get a second chance, if the corrosion and wiring issues can be overcome.
Not sure yet, still under intense discussion.

Lockheed is opening a mod line in Marietta to re-wing a number of P-3's. Maybe the Electra's could get in line!

[Yoth]

My understanding is that the noise regs will ground the electra in Europe in 2012. Is this the same in USA?
I know that Atlantic Airlines are considering replacements for this eventuality.

[WhalePFE]

My understanding is that the noise regs will ground the electra in Europe in 2012. Is this the same in USA?
I know that Atlantic Airlines are considering replacements for this eventuality.

Since when is a L-188 noisey?:confused:

[AircraftOperations]

The Electra is Stage III, N'est ce pas?

Atlantic are considering replacing them with ATPs, but I understood that was due to the 8 tonne max payload of the twin engine ATPs making better commercial sense in the present nightfreight climate than the 14 tonne 4 engine L-188.

[carholme]

This link is from a Canadian web site which shows an interesting separation of the upper wing and also some good shots of the aircarft used on icebreaker patrol in the days when aviation was a lot more enjoyable.

Regards

carholme

[carholme]

I guess it would be a good idea to post the link.



AVCANADA • View topic - What happens when a P-3 (CP-140) Stalls and pulls 7g's? (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=45445)

carholme

[forget]

You'd wonder about the veracity of the rest of the report when 'they' can't recognise a left wing from a right wing. :bored:

[glhcarl]

You'd wonder about the veracity of the rest of the report when 'they' can't recognise a left wing from a right wing.

And they have no idea what a wing spar is?

[lolder]

I was an Electra co-pilot for Eastern Air Lines in 1966-1967. It was certified in the US for a three-man crew. The Electra Allison 501 turboshaft engines are a constant rpm engine. They had two speeds, one for flight and a 30% lower one for ground operation for noise reduction. The airplane had 115 VAC 400 cycle power with four direct coupled generators. Only one engine generator had a two speed gearbox to provide power for the whole aircraft on the ground at the ground RPM. Their were at least four different AC buses. Before takeoff, the three non-gearbox engines were shifted to flight RPM and the generators came on line and the flight engineer shifted the AC buses to these engines. Then the forth engine was shifted up. The reverse happened after landing. The FE was extremely busy. Everything on the aircraft was AC including the hydraulic pumps for the flight controls. Eastern had an accident at BOS where thousands of starlings were ingested right after takeoff and caused all the engines to surge in RPM and the AC generators all started tripping on and off the line due to automatic underfrequency protection. Due to loss of hydraulic power, the flight controls "froze" and the aircraft crashed. The forward cockpit floor under the pilots was raised a few inches and the rear edge of that had at least three flip up doors that protected the hydraulic bypass handles that allowed manual flight control. The FE sitting in the center position for TO was supposed to lift the doors and pull the handles if necessary. The bird ingestion happened too fast for that to occur. After that accident, on every TO, the doors were lifted to the open position to allow faster access to the bypass handles. I cannot imagine operation of this aircraft with a two-man crew. If the lower-speed ground RPM was abandoned, that would reduce a lot of the routine work but the FE panel was huge with all the hydraulic and electrical system controls.
Once the nacelle and wing was beefed up to prevent the "whirl mode" cause of three inflight break-ups, the aircraft was safe and reliable and a dream to fly. I think they seldom changed the brakes because of the massive reverse thrust available.

[lolder]

We taxied onto the departure runway at EWR one morning when everything was covered in ice due to an overnight freezing rain. You could taxi a L 188 with prop pitch control even without any effective nose wheel steering or braking effectiveness. As we sat in the center of the runway, the FE shifted the engines up to the flight RPM. Even at flat pitch, the airplane started to slowly slide sideways off to the left side of the runway. the Captain advanced the power levers a tad and the aircraft regained rolling traction and moved slowly directly forward. He said, "Tell them were cancelling and going back to the gate. We don't get paid to do this". I had never realized most runways are designed 1 1/2 feet higher in the middle.

[galaxy flyer]

I am also an EAL alumnae, '84-'89, March 6th to be exact. I'm surprised Lockheed didn't have at least some hydraulics powered by engine driven pumps. The BOSFO had a number of ex-Electra pilots who loved it to a man, especially during slowdowns and flying the Shuttle VFR. Did the Electra have "system" trips and where to, if they did.

GF

[lolder]

They flew all over but were being replaced by the jets. In '66-'67 they still flew over much of the EAL system. I had a turnaround JFK BAL BDA BAL JFK. It paid about 8 actual hours. The leg to Bermuda was about 2:30. We filled for FL 230 and it took forever to get that high. One winter night we flew VFR from DCA to LGA at 5500'. Visibility was unlimited. I think the barber pole was 320 kts and we were at it. The ground speed with a tailwind was 400 mph. The ground really rolled by fast. That was before the 250 kt limit. The Allison division of Rolls Royce is still making the engines for the C-130J but it is now a two spool engine. All the previous Electra, Orion and Hercules were of the related single spool 501 type. It was a mechanical relay airplane. You didn't write anything up until after the first landing jarred things loose. Any pilot could get in it, have somebody start it for him which was push button anyway and go out and fly it with little training required. The amount of starlings ingested in the BOS crash was hundreds and was a one in a billion event.
The Electra had 4, 60 KVA 115 VAC, 400 cycle generators. It had air-cycle HVAC machines and a freon system for extra on the ground cooling. The side panel in the walls of the cabin were electrically heated so the person sitting next to the window didn't get cold. It was probably high maintenance by today's standards. Since there are so many C-130's and P 3's still flying, engine and prop overhaul is still available. Airframe and systems parts are another story as we've seen from the beginning of this thread about the corrosion.

[Lowrider2]

A few L-188's are still flying in Canada and I get a chance to work on some once in a while. Still my favorite aircraft to fly (FE). Lots of parts still available if you know who has them (I do).

[lolder]

I've seen the "Ice Pilots" info about Buffalo Air L-188's and was not impressed. To start one they had a turbine APU strapped in the rear cargo compartment and ran a starter hose from it to the external air pressure connector. They had to fiddle with the APU to get it started.

[galaxy flyer]

iolder,

What did they use for nav equipment to BDA?

GF

[lolder]

A half hour before departure at JFK, a mechanic showed up with a suitcase sized portable manual Loran C receiver and strapped it into the Captains flight bag space to his left and connected it by a 28VDC plug and an antenna connector. As co-pilot, I had to check it out which I did. The month I flew the trip I had a different captain each trip. None of them knew how to work the manual loran. Of course we had VOR-DME for about 350 nm of the 700 nm leg. The Captains would fiddle with it half an hour and give up. I could usually cajole them into letting me sit in the seat and "practice" getting a fix. You couldn't really miss Bermuda and there was no other airway traffic so if you got off course 50 miles it didn't matter. In practice we were never off more than about 5. This was when Eastern had applied to the CAB to fly to the Pacific.

[lolder]

We also had a nicer permanently installed loran C in the L-1011's though still manual. We used it on JFK SJU. The flights frequently flew through the dusk hours when the loran C transitioned from ground wave to sky wave. If you matched a skywave slave signal to a groundwave base signal or vice-versa your position error was tens of miles. You had to take fixes every fifteen minutes or so to make sure you were on the right waves. Most of the Captains didn't care because of you take off from JFK and head 180 you arrive in SJU. They'd done that in DC 4s, 6s, 7s and Connies for years. You just hold that 180 heading. The westerlies that push you off course are cancelled by the trades that push you back. They usually equaled out. There was a rumor from the '40's that a JFK SJU DC-4 got lost and had to fly back NORTH an hour to get to SJU.

[tonytales]

As a Tech Service at EAL I flew a lot of jump seat. I remember riding a DC-8-61 out of SJU to JFK. No need for Loran, we just followed the bright anti-collision light on the Pan Am B747 with its INS. It was much higher than we were and easy to follow.
The L-188 Electras were in system use in 1967 for I had to go up and run a maintenance FAM course in Cleveland and Montreal for EXPO.
After that last hurrah, the Electras were only on the EAL Shuttle, DC_to LGA or EWR and LGA or EWR to BOS. Toward the end of their service at EAL they booked an L-188 charter from LGA (I think) to SJU and then one of the islands. First problem was to find an aircraft that still had the HF wire aerials installed. Second was to install the sets and make them work. The third was to find one of the old plug-in LORAN sets and install it and get it to work. Aircraft was spruced up inside, rafts and emergency gear restocked, galley equipment reactivated (Shuttle had no food service) and the shuttle ticket carts removed.
I put my most L-188 experienced Tech Supervisor on board the charter as we knew SJU hadn't seen an Electra in many years. Off it went. As he reported the aircraft did fine the first hour. It had not flown for more than an hour for years being in Shuttle service and it began to wonder why it wasn't being landed. There were little problems at first. The LORAN set was to the left of the Captain and sat on its mount. It required my Supervisor to force it down against the disused contacts and hold it there in order to operate. He got a shock if he let up on the pressure. As it flew on, various instruments began to give up. The engines however performed perfectly. As a grand finale the potable water tank in the ceiling between the lavs split open a seam and dumped its water in the aisle. EAL in SJU had to charter a Caribair aircraft to finish the flight down to one of the islands.
Regarding the horrific pictures of the sprung wing planks, it happened before but on the ground. During a structural repair inside the wing fuel tanks, paper cups were used to hold the fasteners. In accordance with Murphy's Law one was left inside. On refueling it inevitably found the fuel vent and blocked it. With the huge area, even a small differential pressure builds an enormous force and it sprung a plank loose. The aircraft was repaired but that was many, many years ago when it was in regular service. Somehow I doubt this one will be.
The Electra with all its quirky air-conditioning systems (Freon, air-cycle and electric heat), electrical system full of relays performing bus switching, electrically driven hydraulic system and stiff planked wings was a challenge to maintenance. I did love the engines though.

[lolder]

In late 1977, EAL worked out a deal to put an Omega receiver on the L-1011's. They paid $25K each when INS's were going for $100K. I forget who made them ( edit- Collins LRN-70 or 80? ). There was an operating book put in the FE's desk that was usually missing. You had to initialize your position on them at least 15 minutes before moving the aircraft. If you didn't do that, they didn't work right. You could turn them on at least 1/2 hour before moving and they went through a long automatic initialization and figured out where they were on their own. They didn't drift with time as INS's did as they operated as a VLF hyperbolic navigation system using 8 world wide stations. They were accurate to a couple of miles. They were never required for dispatch as the manual loran C's were still installed.

[Lowrider2]

"Ice Pilots" demonstrate that the old girl can keep on going and do it quite well.
Ansett in Australia used a system call "combustor" to start their L-188's in remote areas. The combustor used compressed air bottles, all steel starters, injecting fuel into the starter air duct and igniting it. Flames would shoot out of a starter exhaust port in the engine cowl. Usually scare the hell out of someone that had not seen it before. Engine would spin up very fast.

[tonytales]

I believe Lockheed offered some built-in high-pressure air bottles for combuster type starts. Not used on EAL Electras. Some DC-8 had a cobuster on nbr. 3 engine. 3000-psi air was stored in the MLG oleo legs in a chamber above the oleo portion. There was also a small tank of 60/40 alcohol-water that was injected, mostly to improve mass flow I think. EAL also modified on Electra by installing an APU in the aft baggage area. It was gone by the time I arrived in 1964 as it was too noisy (or so I was told). That aircraft had no aft LH fuselage pneumatic ground connection to the confusion of ground crews.
Little known fact, first few EAL Electras had provision for a speed brake on fuselage belly midships. I opened a large screw-installed belly plate for a phase-check inspection and there was a cavity under it with hinges and mounts for a hydraulic actuator and capped hydraulic fittings. Of course with those huge flat face of the props there was no need for speed brakes. Later aircraft had skin with no sign of this.

[Four Turbo]

Yes, early build included air bottles in the wing for an engine start. I believe they were not a great success and disappeared quite quickly. Standard air start inlet was under no.3. This was also the first in the start sequence, so groundcrew had to uncouple underneath a running engine. So some airlines installed an inlet on the rear port fuselage, behind the cabin door. This was a much better option, but NOT all airlines paid for this mod. so not all aircraft had it. Various APU options were discussed to get over the need for an air start unit at route fields; I am not aware of any great success.

[Four Turbo]

Further thoughts and memories! Air bottles just supplied compressed air to the starter turbine. No combustion along with that. Another option Zantop used at one of their outstations was a large (15 ft long 6 ft cylinder) which was filled with compressed air over several hours. Supply was from a compressor attached to a car engine. This was a one shot wonder. Blew for 20 seconds or so; if you screwed up the start there was no way back! In view of this an Air Start Unit was the standard option at route fields. One foggy morning in Finland I could not get into Helsinki, so went to our company alternate Turku. Before shutting the last engine down I got ALM to check they had an ASU. Thumbs up. As No 4 wound down they asked how many volts we needed from this ASU! So one had to be trucked in from Helsinki over the day. Cost £800 from memory. Happy days

[lolder]

I kind of thought the Eastern L-188's had APUs in the tail. There was an exhaust port there with a screen over it. We were told that was to protect the APUs from 250 kt. birds flying into your rear. Maybe they were removed at some time. I have a friend at United who said they windmill started a Viscount engine at the gate with propwash from a DC-6 ( or 7 or Connie maybe ). They used ropes wrapped around the prop hubs on DC-3s also. As co-pilot on a CV 440 we checked the auto-feather of each P & W R-2800 on taxi out. You let the RPM drop a little and disarmed it did the other engine. One night at DCA, I let the RPM get a little low doing this and both engines loaded up and quit. As we coasted to a halt in front of the Atlantac Aviation ramp. The very gruff Captain said: "Gee, that never happened to me before". Ground control said: "Eastern continue taxiing...........Oh, I see you've lost them both". The ships battery was never kept in good enough condition to start those big engines and we barely got a call off to operations for a power cart as the battery voltage charged downwards from 24 v. It took them 1/2 an hour to get us started again. Miraculously I didn't get bawled out by the Captain.
A Buffalo Air DC 4 froze one night in the far north after the ground electric engine heaters tripped a circuit breaker and no one noticed until morning. They couldn't unfreeze them with the electric heaters and had to fly in a big Janitrol space heater.

[tonytales]

Re Lolder's remark re EAL Electra's having an APU:
No, except for the one L-188 they tried an APU on, none of EAL's had an APU and that one was long gone by 1964. For off-line charters, we did have a stripped down portable GT unit that could be shipped in the baggage. It had to be removed and set up on a baggage cart. I personally never saw it.
More usable, there was also a long ground air starter hose with a coupling at each end. If you had a jet needing a start and had a second aircraft with running engines you connected them by the hose. The coupling that went into the running aircraft had a forked fitting protruding out of it. It held the flappers of the aircraft check valve installed at the ground connection open. Turn on pneumatics and you supplied the other aircraft.
Best description of a B747 with an inop APU was that it was as helpless as a whale on a beach. It required external AC power and two huffer units to get it going.

[lolder]

Being a L-188 co-pilot I wasn't concerned with all the operational details. It was a cushy job. The FE was as busy as a one arm paper hanger shifting engine RPM's and electrical buses just before and after take-off and landing. I don't remember any APU info other than the screen over the hole at the back tip of the tail cone. The L-188 was the biggest source of hearing loss on the airline. On the ramp at ground RPM they were a screaming banshee. At TO power they were the quietest. In cruise flight, there was an RPM and Phase sync for all 4 engines to reduce mid-cabin noise. When the Phase sync was on, each propeller kept the same angle relationship with the ones adjacent that was pre-calculated to produce the least noise; a very temper-mental fancy gadget.

[turbroprop]

Atlantic had an Electra with an app. Fitted in aft lower fuselage. Rearly used as it was unusual not to get an air starter.

As for the prop sync and top temp control. Way too advanced to have been designed in the 50s. Convinced the systems were stolen from some wreckage at Roswell.