Daily Mirror Today.

[paddyfactor]

MIX-UP LEAVES RAF CREW DEFENCELESS

EXCLUSIVE

By Chris Hughes 14/07/2008 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/07/14/mix-up-leaves-raf-crew-defenceless-89520-20643023/2008/07/14/)

The crew of an RAF Hercules troop carrier spent three weeks in Iraq without any weapons after customs officers forced them to hand them over.
They had a stopover in Qatar but the authorities there claimed they did not have the correct paperwork for their SA80 assault rifles and 9mm revolvers.
The six-man team were astonished to learn that a British Air Commander decided they should leave their arms and fly on to Iraq without them in the incident four weeks ago. They were told they would get them when they left Iraq.
But all service staff must carry guns at all times. A RAF source said: "It is a disgrace that we are putting our people at risk like this.
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"Someone screwed up by giving our people the wrong paperwork and when the guns were taken off them they were told to fly on.
"But you cannot have a Hercules crew entering Iraqi airspace without them all being armed in case they run into trouble. If the plane was forced to crash land they have to have guns to fend for themselves until a rescue team arrives.
"Also in Basra everyone has their own weapon to reduce the risk of hostage-taking." He added: "If that had been a US plane there would be no way the Yanks would hand over their weapons." The MoD said: "We had to change our processes for a while. Standard procedures have resumed."
HAUL
The Hercules can carry up to 128 passengers or 20 tonnes of freight

One crew? I think it may have been all crews. Still who needs weapons in a war zone if you have an auth saying they are a desirable but not essential item.

[sikeano]

It is reported in the Daily Mirror,
Say no more, :yuk:

[flipster]

No smoke without fire, perhaps!?

If true, however, this is an utterly disgraceful way to treat our crews. Boy, we can make ourselves look damn foolish sometimes; our coalition partners *(and AlQ) must be laughing their socks off at us.

[nigegilb]

It is true and it continued for some time. ACC taking military risk decisions? Think we have been there before haven't we. Everyone knows about this at Lyneham.

[angels]

silkeano - The red tops have been doing a good job exposing a lot of the ****e that servicemen and women are having to put up on their tours.

Don't just slag them off in a knee-jerk fashion. The quote at the bottom of the story certainly seems to confirm it (along with nigeglib'ssubsequent reply).

On to the story itself. Utterly pathetic of course, but when they got to Basra, wouldn't they have been issued with some weaponry?

[taxydual]

Surely it is not beyond someone's remit to fit a secure personal weapons cabinet onboard an aircraft for eventualities such as this.

Beggars belief!!

[ninja-lewis]

Surely it is not beyond someone's remit to fit a secure personal weapons cabinet onboard an aircraft for eventualities such as this.

It's probably in BAE's remit... :eek:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"On to the story itself. Utterly pathetic of course, but when they got to Basra, wouldn't they have been issued with some weaponry?"

And just remind us how they get to Basra........................

" Surely it is not beyond someone's remit to fit a secure personal weapons cabinet onboard an aircraft for eventualities such as this."

And that addresses this problem how.............................

[sikeano]

I am just being cynical, as I remember it was Daily Mirror who first reported that British Army were abusing Iraqi prisoners by printing pics which were later found to be false, and they were on and on claiming to be Anti War while our boys and girls were getting killed
That stance did boost the morale of the armed forces i am sure



Hence my two pence worth to Daily Mirror

[RAF_Techie101]

It's ok, jsut wave your deficiency chit at them - they'll probably have not been issued with rounds anyway, you'll have to go to stores once you've engaged the enemy and are certain you need to fire back...

[nigegilb]

sikeano, good point and one that the author of the piece, Chris Hughes is well aware.

One suspects the newspaper is keen to make amends?

[taxydual]

In my day, down the Route (sorry, if I sound like a when I), anything we didn't want Foreign Customs Officers to see, we packed the items in bag/holdall/box of sufficient size, attached an On Her Britannic Majesties Service label on it and declared it as a Diplomatic Bag.

Or is that not cricket these days?

At least we didn't go 'defenceless' into a war zone.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

So you suggest the smuggling of weapons into an Islamic state is a good idea............................................good grief :rolleyes:

[C130 Techie]

Surely it is not beyond someone's remit to fit a secure personal weapons cabinet onboard an aircraft for eventualities such as this.

You would think not. However, many have tried and failed believe me!!!

[taxydual]

1. Diplomatic bag scenario isn't smuggling. How do you think foreign embassy staff get their hardware into this country? What the eye doesn't see etc etc

2. I've deleted the details of 2, but I've been there, done it and worn the tee shirt.

Oh, and James Bond I am most certainly not.


Perhaps an analagy? RN warships in foreign ports, as well as carrying big bangy stuff, do they not also carry small arms? The Customs of whatever country they visit don't have fits of the vapours when HMS whatever docks.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

As someone who is directly responsible, on behalf of the aircraft captain for dealing with customs I can tell you that the " Diplomatic bag scenario" as you suggest IS smuggling.

If you think smuggling of weapons into an Islamic state, especially considering the high regard we are currently held in the Arab world is sensible, then so be it but I doubt very much if you will find many current AT crews who would agree with you.

[BackfromIraq]

9mm revolver?

Semantics, I know, but even so...

[taxydual]

Seldom,

I hear what you say (God, that's an awful phrase), but, trust me, I do know about Diplomatic Bags.

Also, I would argue, that AT are not 'smuggling into' but are 'transiting through' States, Islamic or otherwise.

Pedantic, perhaps. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxx
TD

[flipster]

So, we believe this story is true (I have had it confirmed myself)?

In that case, could someone have a quiet word with this 'air commander' and remind him/her of their responsibilties as a leader and suggest they look at what happened when Sgt Roberts was sent into a threat area without the correct equipment.

This decision smacks of expediency, at best, or of a lack of backbone, at worst, to make a conscious decision to put in harms way, without any apparent life-or-death operational imperative, the very people to whom they owe the greatest allegiance - ie their subordinates. I hope the 'commander' is thoroughly ashamed of these actions and if not, they need a close look in the mirror if they are to regain any credibility at all.

This is the sort of thinking that denied proper protection to ALL Hercs after the loss of XV197.

[Pontius Navigator]

We had document boxes at Waddo. They looked like ammunition boxes and had watertight seals etc.

The boxes were taken to the Foreign Office where diplomatic seals were added and then brought back to Waddo to be filled. That way it avoided couriering material unnecessarily around the country.

The seals were attached in such a way that they only 'appeared' to secure the boxes.

Once, on returning from overseas, an eagle-eyed customs official insisted on looking in one of the boxes. No dice. Impass.

The solution was for box and courier to be locked in the secure cage until a senior, and appropriately cleared, customs officer could be brought. A couple of hours later he came, words were said, and box and courier were released. The box was never opened.

Rather than trying to bring the weapons into Qatar, had they stayed in the aircraft, airside, with a crew member/RAFP, is it possible they would have been OK?

[jayteeto]

What goes around, comes around. RAF Lyneham in the mid 90's saw Jayteeto going to Gutersloh on a Herc to pick up a Puma to fly to Aldergrove. They took away our aircrew knives and removed the miniflares and Day/night flares from our LCJs. Told us they were illegal. Even British Airways let us take aircrew stuff if it went in the hold!!

[downsizer]

As always the full story.:ugh::oh:

[Alber Ratman]

This thread is so full of codswallop. :ugh:
From someone who has passed through the Died.

[cazatou]

SFFP

Regarding "Smuggling" weapons in a "Diplomatic Bag" - when I did it the Air Attache came in person to our Hotel to collect the "package".

But then; I could just be pulling your leg - couldn't I?

PS Sorry, I forgot to mention - I was the Aircraft Captain.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

If it's in a diplomatic bag then it's not smuggling................however if it's in a bag made up to imitate a diplomatic bag with no genuine diplomatic seals or accompanying paperwork, as was suggested then it is smuggling...............and if you ever were an aircraft captain you would of course already know that :=

[cazatou]

Yup.

The stuff ended up where it was needed - by hand of Aircraft Captain.

It happens that Aircraft Captains sometimes get tasked to carry items that other crew members need not know about. I remember a Customs Officer at LHR asking me to open the briefcase I was carrying:- I refused. He looked at me and said " Don't tell me - you have one of those letters". He was absolutely correct and he gave way gracefully once I showed him the letter.

You do not need to know what was in the briefcase.

Of course - I could just be winding you up. If, however, you are who you say you are; you will know that what I have said is correct.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

During your time in were you ever familiar with the term RTFQ........:rolleyes:

SHOP, SHOAC and SHOE etc are completely different from what was suggested in that they are formal and authorised means of transporting by air classified paperwork and equipment. They will have the relevant paperwork supporting there authorised movement, ergo that is not smuggling.

However as was recently suggested. which I countered, manufacturing something to resemble a diplomatic bag, that has no supporting and authorising paperwork or seals etc then placing weapons into it for the purpose of taking it into a foreign country is smuggling.

As I said if you were an A/C Captain you would of course be able to understand this subtle but very important distinction :=

[kkbuk]

taxydual, foreign customs officers don't get on board our warships as we are considered to be more or less like an embassy. Any intrusion would be considered to be a diplomatic 'incident'

[larssnowpharter]

9mm revolver?

They do actually exist.

But that begs the question: 'What feckin good is a 9mm?'