One-Two-Go Grounded!

[InvestigateUdom]

The DCA has finally revoked One-Two-Go's AOC due to public pressure over the fraudulent check rides and complete lack of credible training records.

Posted on the 12go website is the following message: * Due to an overhaul on our systems, passengers will be able to book for flights until 14 July 2008, One Two Go Airlines would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused. Not clear English, but it still says it all. They are shut down.

See proof of fraudulent check rides and OG269's black box recording on the InvestigateUdom (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php) petition site timeline. (The checkride fraud is dated June 4, 2008. The blackbox info is June 12, 2008.)

Additional signatures on the petition for an open and transparent investigation into the crash of OG269 are always appreciated.

[Xeque]

The message currently says

* Due to an overhaul on our systems, passengers will be able to book for flights until 31 July 2008, One Two Go Airlines would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Has that been changed since you first saw the message?

[rolibkk]

The message was changed from 14th to 31st. Either they paid some money to the DCA or the order to revoke the AOC is still pending. Don't forget here in BKK such issues can be delayed for months if one has the right connections.

[ChristySweet]

1- 2 Go site is stating can book up until July 21 as of just a minute ago.
There is absolultely no mention of any " grounding" in any news source...

[411A]

I wouldn't get too excited about all this.
This has happened all before with Udom, and his previous Orient Thai...the guy is as slippery as an eel.

[InvestigateUdom]

Don't forget, the FAA is returning to Thailand soon to wrap up the IASA audit.

I wonder if revoking the AOC for fraudulent checkrides and failure to train and then postponing the revocation until convenient for the airline will help Thailand retain their category 1 rating in the US?

[Pom Pax]

There is absolultely no mention of any " grounding" in any news source...
Might I respectfully suggest that you guys are reading something into this that is not there.
My interpretation of the message would be that they are upgrading their online booking system.

[B747-800]

FAA will threaten Thailand with downgrading to CAT 2! Don't you think so?

[Bob Hawke]

The slippery eel will do a deal. Brown paper bags go along way. Hopefully there pressure on TG will not allow this to happen as the audit from the FAA is just to much to gloss over with abit of tea money.

[bkkfly]

As I know:

Udom has disappeared to China along with his daughter and family in order to avoid FAA and media: source OG cabin crew.

Flight attendents are also over their duty time. In addition F/A of OG can no longer fly on OX flights after FAA investigation. Many will lose their jobs.

If Thailand's status is downgraded TG will no longer be able to fly US.

A large amount of money has been paid to DCA to allow OG to remain flying despite the revocation order. Authorities are scared of the neg publicity and damage to an already fragile tourist industry should the airline be grounded (which incidently also carries the national colours).

As another post states Udom has been throught this before and is a very capable "greaser". The only hope is the attention of foreign media will now be his downfall. Have a look at the recent interview with him on the Austalian channel 9 sunday program where he is shown smoking in the office defending his airline at the same time. The program succeeds in making him look like the real creep that he is.

I think we should start emailing the DCA....

[CargoOne]

bkkfly

If Thailand's status is downgraded TG will no longer be able to fly US.


As far as I remember if FAA downgrading the country from Cat 1 to Cat 2, it means that existing services can be maintained but no extra routes/frequencies until the problem resolved.

[InvestigateUdom]

FAA category 2 is restricted as CargoOne describes.
FAA delisted is a ban.

[rolibkk]

Pom Pax, either you are one of them or a real optimist. No system upgrade takes 4 to 5 days. What they do is basically let the passengers believe that they still can fly until the date mentioned. The date gets updated based on the information OX receives from DCA. Initially it was the 14th, then it moved to 31st, now it says 21st. If DCA decides to postpone the release of the findings, you will see the message being updated.

Do you really think they would post a message saying: "as we are under investigation by the DCA and the chances are high that our AOC is going to be revoked soon, you can only make bookings until 21st July".

[411A]

Udom has disappeared to China along with his daughter and family in order to avoid FAA and media: source OG cabin crew.


Ah yes, the usual 'reliable source'.:rolleyes:

I suspect that 1-2-go will have it's AOC suspended for a short period, the furor dies down, then business as usual, once again.
Thai culture, like a leopards spots, do not change.
Time will tell if I'm right.

[ChristySweet]

Well yes I agree that's how things have happened in the past, in ThaiLieLand but you have a quite a determined group of people working on this and we aren't going to let that happen - are we???
It's easy to say "Oh, no one can change anything.." but that really isn't true.
More often than not, one woman can change everything- look at Candy Lightner in the US , she changed the entire aspects of driving drunk in America after losing her child to a drunk driver- she founded MADD
I think Bonnie Rind will do the same for Air safety and we must all help her .

Any idea when NTSB coming I'd love to talk directly to them??
I will compile a e mail list too ..

[ZFT]

Bangkok Post 16 July 2008

Someone's telling porkies!!!

AVIATION

One-Two-Go ponders temporary grounding

Founder approaches 'a painful decision'

BOONSONG KOSITCHOTETHANA
The founder of One-Two-Go Airlines is taking a long, hard look at the possibility of ceasing the budget carrier's flight operations in a damage-control exercise at a time of skyrocketing fuel prices and declining traffic demand.

Udom Tantiprasongchai told the Bangkok Post that he was seriously pondering whether to ground One-Two-Go "temporarily" on mounting cost pressures and poor business outlook.

"I'm not lying to myself about the reality of the situation. A painful decision needs to be made," he said.

One-Two-Go is one of the three Thai no-frills carriers, all of which are struggling with fuel prices that have doubled in the past year to above $170 a barrel.

Nok Airlines, 39% owned by Thai Airways International, is also facing troubles, since last July losing 114 million baht. Nok recently won a reprieve from shareholders to continue to fly after the management committed to a rehabilitation package including downsizing of operations, halving the fleet, and cutting salaries of senior staff.

With the package, Nok hopes to return to a break-even point over the next six months and turn a profit in the following six months.

Meanwhile, Thai AirAsia is fighting to curtail losses this year, adopting some methods that are unconventional for low-cost carriers, to boost revenues and keep seats filled even it means they do not offer any profit margin.

The no-frills carrier could be in the red again this year but hoped the losses would be less than in 2007, chief executive Tassapon Bijleveld has said.

Mr Udom's plan to suspend One-Two-Go was also influenced by a sense of betrayal from his two local rivals, which earlier agreed to adopt a survival package a few weeks ago but failed to follow through.

It was agreed that the trio would avoid price-cutting while increasing fuel surcharges, raising fares, reducing capacity and dropping low-traffic routes.

Mr Udom said domestic fares needed to go up by 30% from current levels to about 2,500 baht per leg.

The average domestic fares charged by Thai Airways International is roughly 2,200 baht, compared with 2,000 baht for One-Two-Go, and 1,500 baht for Thai AirAsia and Nok Air.

Fuel surcharges would need to increase to better reflect high fuel prices. Starting on July 5, One-Two-Go raised its fuel surcharge by 100 baht to 850 baht a leg. Fuel now accounts for 70% of its total operating costs, according to Mr Udom.

The higher percentage of fuel is due to its use of eight ageing and fuel-thirsty MD 80 series jets.

"In this kind of environment, anyone can go (bust) anytime," he said.

As a prelude to to a more drastic decision, One-Two-Go has cut frequencies on several routes, with the number of Bangkok-Chiang Mai and Bangkok-Phuket flights down to 21 a week from 28, Bangkok-Hat Yai halved to seven a week, while those to Chiang Rai and Nakhon Si Thammarat are down from seven to two flights per week.

Mr Udom said he was considering the futures of 700 employees working for One-Two-Go in case of a shutdown, though he did not rule out retrenchment possibilities.

Options for the employees could include accepting severance pay, leave-without-pay arrangements, and enrolling in some training courses.

The closure of One-Two-Go, which started flying in December 2003, may not be for good, he said. "If the situation improved with fuel prices being lowered and the profitability outlook was better, we could be airborne again."

Mr Udom declined to detail the financial impact that the airline industry downturn had had on One-Two-Go, saying only, "We are financially sustainable."

But he insisted that the parent carrier, Orient Thai Airlines, would continue to operate, flying chartered services and scheduled flights to Hong Kong and Incheon near Seoul.
Earlier this year, Orient Thai branched out into freight service by creating the country's first dedicated cargo carrier, Orient Thai Cargo, deploying two used Boeing 747-200Fs, acquired from Japan Airlines.

[bkkfly]

The crew centre informed us Udom has gone to China along with his daughters. Interestingly, several pursers and senior attendants were sent on an all expenses paid trip to Singapore. This was to avoid FAA investigators as initial investigations have revealed that OG crew were often rostered to fly OX and vice-versa. Most OG cabin crew are not certified to fly 747 and OX are not certified to fly MD's (or trained on safety equipment). (I the Phuket crash the surviving female attendant was OX not OG!!!) this has never come out.

For the record it's not true that OG has lost its AOC. It is still under consideration by the DCA. I have spoken with Khun Chaisuk at the flight standards bureau at the DCA who told me that it is under consideration and the decision will be released on Monday. However Thai DCA is totally corrupt and I have no doubt with money paid to the right people OG will continue to fly (should Udom want it to).
On the day of the Phuket crash, pilot Arief had already completed 5 or more sectors. He had commenced at 5:00am. He was also fasting as it was the month of Ramadan and had not eaten anything since before dawn. Obviously this too was a contributing factor that I don't believe has yet been investigated.

My friend who was cabin crew on the flight and survived told me that she was paid not to tell the DCA how many sectors she had completed that day as it was over the regulated limit. She too had commenced at 5:00am and completed 5 sectors and at the time of the crash she was asleep in the bulk head crew seat. She is now working in the crew centre as her injuries prevent her from ever flying again and Udom wants to keep her “contained”.
Further update: Several of OG’s MD’s have been parked away in HK.Is this to avoid examination? Crew on OX charter flight from HK to Phuket today called to say they had seen them parked along with the defunct HK airlines aircraft.
I hate to say this, but there is no way UDOM or OG/OX is going down. Udom has too many connections in Thailand and unfortunately Thailand is still too corrupt. Thai people working for the airline are too scared to speak out (piss the big guys off and you can just disappear here). Those who do speak out are the “farang” pilots who have already left back to the safety of their own countries and they are just branded as complainers. Face it, the reality is that OG/OX will fly until the next crash which only then will be Udom’s demise.

[Xeque]

bkkfly
I have to take issue with you on one point.
In Islam under special circumstances if one's work might be affected, the Ramadan fast can be broken. You may make up the time by continuing the fast later.
When I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia, our drivers, those commuting between Al Khobar and Kuwait, were allowed water and food during their journey as long as the fast was 'made up' later.
No-one can be sure that this was a contributing factor in the Phuket crash.

[bkkfly]

Xeque I take your point. You are right that no one can be sure fasting was a contributing factor but it also cannot be ruled out. Was Cpt. Arief fasting or not? I guess we will never know. What is known is that on the day he had already exceeded his hours.

On another note, isn't Udom so clever? now claiming the airline will be closed down but due to financial considerations. So far avoiding any mention of the AOC in the local press. Got to give it to the guy :D

[bkkfly]

Xeque I take your point. You are right that no one can be sure fasting was a contributing factor but it also cannot be ruled out. Was Cpt. Arief fasting or not? I guess we will never know. What is known is that on the day he had already exceeded his hours.

On another note, isn't Udom so clever? now claiming the airline will be closed down but due to financial considerations. So far avoiding any mention of the AOC in the local press. Got to give it to the guy :D

[InvestigateUdom]

Regarding Arief's state: whether a lack of food and water and medical issues contributed to his fatigue, the black box tells us Arief - by far the more skilled pilot - was uninvolved in the landing. Monti flew it alone until he too stopped flying the airplane 19 seconds before impact.

Regarding Udom's "cleverness": I think it's sad.

[bkkfly]

Expect to hear some good news on Monday 21st. Word from the crew centre is that OG will close on Monday. Of course Udom wants to call it "temporary" so that he can avoid any termination payments. Instead he will say staff have been offered leave without pay/ training. However I think once closed it will be difficult for OG to start up again.

On another note:

OX is currently being chartered by a Chinese tour company for flights from H.K to Phuket. 3 of the F/A's rostered for this package are from OG and have no training at all for OX 747's. I just don't understand how this terribly dodgy operation can continue. How can the DCA be turning such a blind eye??? and these people belive in Karma? Just venting some anger.:ugh:

[rolibkk]

Low-cost carrier One-Two-Go will suspend its operations from July 22 to September 15, making it the first airline victim of record oil prices.





Founder and CEO Udom Tatiprosongchai said the unrelenting rise in oil prices had forced the airline to shut down temporarily.

During this period there will be a reorganisation to prepare for a return to business.

"The company has been losing money for months, and we cannot continue like this," said Udom, adding that One-Two-Go would resume operations when the situation improved.

Two of its rival, Thai AirAsia and Nok Ai, are still in service but facing the same cost pressure.

Both have revised their business strategies and rescheduled some routes.

Udom said One Two Go had been operating based on actual costs while other players had different strategies. In a statement, One Two Go said high oil prices were hurting the global airline industry.

Airlines world-wide have cut 30 per cent of their flights and raised surcharges to stay in business.

One Two Go was the country's first low-cost airline, starting its service in December 2003 with a Bangkok-Chiang Mai flight.

It ran into trouble when one of its planes crashed in Phuket, killing 90 passengers. Rumours abounded that it could face regulatory problems due to its safety record.

Udom declined to comment on this issue.

Relatives of the victims in the Phuket crash have started a web-site, www.investigateudom.com (http://www.investigateudom.com/), to campaign for an investigation into Udom's business conduct.

It was alleged that Udom had misled pilots into flying unsafe planes and paid bonuses for those who worked beyond the legal maximum of flying hours.
Chaisak Angkasuwan, director-general of the Civil Aviation Department, could not be reached for comment yesterday.

Bangkok's Independent Newspaper (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/07/19/headlines/headlines_30078459.php)

[India Four Two]

How can the DCA be turning such a blind eye???bkkfly,

If that's the case, how about a phone call or an email to the CAD in Hong Kong?

Comments and Enquiries (http://www.cad.gov.hk/english/contactCAD.html)

Would they be interested?

[SOPS]

so what was the 1 2 GO 747 parked at Dubai this morning? I know I did not make it up...I put my 777 next to it and then stood under it as I waited for the bus

[rolibkk]

Quite common here in Thailand. Udom knows too much about the happenings in thai aviation. If the DCA goes against him, he will uncover a lot of stuff that was kept secret over the last years which would affect the industry as a whole. That's why such agencies like the DCA usually go against the small fishs which have no influence or are too weak to react and fire back.

E.g. Chaisak Angkasuwan's son was made IT Manager at OX a couple of years back without having any clue about IT or the airline industry. One way of saying thank you to the director general for helping protect OX ... why do you think Chaisak Angkasuwan shuts up now? I mean he was the most outspoken 20 minutes after the crash already knowing that it was the wind and weather and nothing else.

The son later on moved to Nokair, but that's a different story.

Oh well ...

[rolibkk]

OX 747 at DXB? Most probably trying to cash in as much as possible during the last week of ops. School Holidays in UAE I've been told and a lot of locals flying to Thailand (just try to book a seat on EK or TG ...). Guess Udom got some charter deal. He just needs to make sure that he gets is A/C out before 22nd .

[bkkfly]

SOPS, I think Udom is trying to get all of 1 2 Go MD's out of Thailand to avoid them being investigated. Several are now parked in HK too.

Latest from crew centre: Message was sent to all depts today that last of OG's flights will be on the 22nd. We have been told on the 23rd Udom himself will be addressing press conference at Amari Water Gate - Pratunam hotel. I will post more details as soon as I get them should anyone be interested in attending and making some noise.

We now have to ensure the operation does not get going again. A lot of cabin crew are heart broken but so are many families that lost loved ones and I know it is only a matter of time until another accident occurs if this operation continues.

RoliBKK is spot on. Chaisak is as filthy as Udom and equally corrupt. However he is scared of media attention and earlier this week when I spoke with him he was paranoid about being filmed.If anyone is inclined to stir him a little try requesting a media comment from him. He speaks good English. His direct number is +6622861956 mention you are from a TV station and he freaks out.

[bkkfly]

Thai Airline One Two Go now One To Stop
Bangkok Post 19/07/2008
(dpa) - Thailand's first no-frills airline, One-Two-Go, has suspended all operations for two months for "financial restructuring," media reports said Saturday.
One-Two-Go, the country's first low-cost airline, started operations in December 2003 and is now the first to fall victim to escalating world oil prices, the airline's top executive said.
"The company has been losing money for months, and we cannot continue like this," founder and chief executive Udom Tatiprosongchai told The Nation newspaper.
On Friday, the airline announced the suspension of all operations from July 22 to September 15. It has 700 employees and eight MD 80 jets.
A One-Two-Go plane crashed on landing during a heavy downpour on Phuket Island in October 2007, killing 90 people on board.
Relatives of some of the victims have started a website, www.investigationudom.com, to campaign for an investigation into Udom's business conduct in managing the airline, claiming that he forced pilots to fly unsafe planes.

[bkkfly]

The OX 747 currently parked at Phuket chartered by Chinese travel group has had to cancel departure 3 times now as engine number 3 keeps failing to start. PAX have boarded twice now and then been returned to Metropole Phuket after engine 3 failure! OX will again try to take off for HK tomorrow. I know one FA who is crewing on that flight who is OG crew with no training on 747 aircraft.

Why has the Thai press failied to report at all on the AOC revocation and continue to maintaining Udom's line that temp closure is just for a restructure? Surely there has to be a journo out there who can smell something, no?

Correction to my earlier post Udom's press conference will be at Amarin hotel Don Muang on 23rd.

[InvestigateUdom]

Families blame lax safety for budget airline crash - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4364087.ece)


LAWYERS for the British and American families of victims of an air crash in Thailand are seeking £125m compensation in the US courts in a case that may shed a harsh light on cost-cutting and safety standards at some budget airlines.
The lawsuits follow the disaster on the holiday island of Phuket when an MD82 airliner operated by One-Two-Go, a Thai low-cost carrier, crashed on landing in heavy rain and wind on September 16 last year.
Eight Britons were among the 89 people who died. There were 41 survivors, some of them badly burnt after the plane slewed off the runway, hit an embankment and caught fire.
The captain, Arief Mulyadi, 56, from Indonesia, and his Thai co-pilot were killed on impact. Thai press reports say government investigators have reached an initial finding that pilot error was to blame.
Since the accident the airline has denied allegations by some of its former pilots that crews worked excessive hours and that maintenance standards were lax.
“We believe the air crash was completely avoidable and those responsible should be held to account,” said a statement from the parents of Alex Collins and Bethan Jones, a British couple who died.
“While we accept that nothing can bring Alex and Bethan and the other people who lost their lives back, we are keen to make sure we prevent this from happening again.”
Some British relatives of the victims have lent their names to an internet campaign by Bonnie Rind, an American whose brother died in the crash, calling for prosecutions in Thailand. Rind is also asking for an inquiry by the US National Transportation Safety Board.
She has obtained numerous documents, including what she says is a transcript of material from the flight recorders. Rind said she was confident that the chilling details of the transcript, which appear to show confusion on the flight deck, were accurate.
Flight OG269 from Bangkok was buffeted by heavy weather as it came in for landing. After a warning from the control tower of wind shear - a sudden, violent gust - the Thai co-pilot, who was flying the aircraft, opted to “go around” for a second approach.
However, according to the transcript provided by Rind, neither he nor Arief engaged the correct controls after retracting the wheels. As the MD82 continued to sink towards the runway, the co-pilot’s last words were, “You have control.” There was no response from Arief.
For 15 seconds the engines could be heard idling as the MD82 descended, then for four seconds they roared to full power as an attempt was apparently made to save the aircraft.
Two seconds before the crash a wind shear alarm went off. Then there was silence.
“It was clearly pilot error,” said Rind, a software engineer with a background in aviation. “There was no evidence of anything wrong with the plane.” She believes the captain was incompetent and was probably suffering from fatigue.
Arief had a history of freezing at the controls during crises and had been working excessive hours, according to a documentary by Australia’s Channel Nine television.
Crew rosters showed that at the time of the crash Arief had worked longer than the 110 hours a month allowed by Thai regulators. These rosters were handed to the authorities by the makers of the documentary. The programme interviewed François Wurst, a former pilot for One-Two-Go, who said he was flying with Arief on a charter for the United Nations in 2006 into Kabul to pick up Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, when the Indonesian “mentally froze” during rough weather on the approach.
Other former pilots gave hair-raising stories of shoddy maintenance and pressure to work excessive hours as the airline cut costs when tourism collapsed after the 2004 tsunami. They claimed there were constant faults with electronics, hydraulics and engines on the fleet of MD82s and Boeing 757s.
Udom Tantiprasongchai, the founder of One-Two-Go, has firmly denied the allegations.
James Healy-Pratt of Stew-arts Law, a London firm acting for six Britons, said: “The families and victims are taking action in the US courts to force One-Two-Go to prove that they are not a low-cost, low-safety airline.”
The American courts are involved because the Thai airline has business connections in the United States and the plane was made by McDonnell Doug-las, later bought by Boeing. The MD82 that crashed was first delivered to American Airlines in December 1983.
US lawyers intend to name Boeing in the lawsuits, along with One-Two-Go, its parent company Orient Thai Airlines and Grandmax Group, a company connected to them which leased the doomed aircraft.
The action will be closely watched in the London aviation insurance market because One-Two-Go and Orient Thai are insured by syndicates at Lloyd’s, plus other insurers.
Udom said the company had paid medical expenses and other costs for survivors and had settled claims in 26 cases.
“We, with our insurers, are trying to resolve the remaining claims as quickly and fairly as possible,” he added.
Yesterday Thai media reports said One-Two-Go is to cease flying “temporarily” due to cost pressures caused by oil prices and market conditions.

See www.InvestigateUdom.com Proof and Evidence (http://www.InvestigateUdom.com) for details.

[InvestigateUdom]

Bangkok Post | General news | Pilot error blamed for crash (http://www.bangkokpost.com/210708_News/21Jul2008_news008.php)

ONE-TWO-GO AIRLINES

Pilot error blamed for crash AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK
Pilot error caused the fatal crash in Phuket last year and was the reason behind the grounding of One-Two-Go airlines, Chaisak Angsuwan, the director-general of the Civil Aviation Department, said yesterday.
His statement contradicted one from the budget airline on Friday, which cited problems including rising oil prices and strong competition as the need to temporarily cease operations and ground all eight of its MD 80 series planes.

Mr Chaisak said pilot error while trying to land at Phuket international airport on Sept 16 last year prompted the department to ban the entire MD fleet from service.

Investigations found the plane and maintenance were up to standard, but the way the pilots worked needed to improve to meet international requirements, he said.

The decision to ground One-Two-Go was based mainly on the inquiry by the National Transport Safety Board of the United States and the assessment of the department. The 56-day suspension will start tomorrow.

The temporary ban will only apply to the MD 80 aircraft. All 747 jets flying for Orient Thai airlines, which also belong to Udom Tantiprasongchai, the owner of One-Two-Go, are allowed to keep operating, but improvements are expected within 30 days, Mr Chaisak said. He refused to go into detail.

On Sept 16 last year a One-Two-Go MD-82 crashed in strong winds and heavy rain while trying to land at Phuket. The accident left 89 people dead and 41 injured. Transport Minister Santi Promphat said he was briefed on the report by the department chief on July 11.

The decision to suspend the budget airline will be announced at a press conference today.

Mr Udom said he accepted the results of the investigation, which pointed out faults by the pilots, and promised to make improvements.

A source at the department said the agency had informed One-Two-Go about the need to improve its performance, but nothing was improved.

The agency planned to ground both One-Two-Go and Orient Thai, but later decided to let Orient Thai continue operating. The source said the agency was not satisfied with the no-frills airline after finding that checks by the pilots were not being carried out properly.

[Finn47]

Latest "breaking news" says, the AOC of One-Two-Go as well as the AOC of Orient Thai have both been suspended for 30 days due to poor safety, and criminal charges are to follow.

Bangkok Post Breaking News (http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=128976)

[rolibkk]

30 days grounding, then all back to normal. Nothing will be done. Maybe Udom is going to play some golf and Chaisak drives around his new E-Class Benz he did get from an undisclosed donor working for a well-known airline.
It states that aircraft maintenance was up to standard - of course does it say that, coz otherwise the DCA would have to investigate itself and it also says that they will file criminal charges ... most probably against the employees and foreign pilots that leaked all the information to the foreign press.
They keep Orient Thai flying as Udom needs to use that money to pay for Chaisak's new car ....

[InvestigateUdom]

I have to agree with rolibkk that we need to keep the pressure up.

[afvap]

i agree with you

keep on doing pressure.
I ask anyone who wants to help us to contact "investigateudom" or me.

Thailand: world is now hearing and looking at you!

[MrXrules]

Phuket Air crews are being forced with this same behavior and acceptance of operating in this not so legal enviroment.
Thai DCA has has done audits and never found any problems with the duty time violations even when a incident was happening and in progress while on the property in KSA.
Blind ones these DCA types.

[InvestigateUdom]

Updates from Thailand make it clear deals are being made as the duration of the AOC revocation and affected parties changes by the hour. We've posted a list of questions (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php) we think the press should be asking.
(See right column, July 22, 2008)

[afvap]

lepetitjournal.com - AVIATION - One-Two-Go suspendue et peut-être poursuivie (http://www.lepetitjournal.com/content/view/29578/1013/)

[InvestigateUdom]

Kajit Habanananda is a managing director of Orient Thai and One-Two-Go.
While Udom may be out of favor with the new head of the DCA (notice Vituchai is gone), Mr. Kajit, a "former adviser to the deputy minister of transport" (according to the Chiangmai-mail), seems to be in favor.

To learn more about Mr. Kajit and his political connections, read this:Past International President Kajit "KJ" Habanananda (http://www.lionsclubs.org/EN/content/lions_leaders_pastpres15.shtml)

[rolibkk]

.. and he recently entered politics as the founder of a new political party.

[InvestigateUdom]

I suppose we can conclude that aviation safety isn't a primary platform for the new party.

[flaps22]

Could someone explain to me why Orient Thai's 747'300 is still operating out of Dhaka ?? I was under the impression that if they got their licence pulled this would mean no flying !! They are under a wet lease to Biman so still operating under a Thai licence ,so correct me if I'm wrong!!:confused:

[InvestigateUdom]

In the past week:
One-Two-Go and Orient Thai had their AOC revoked for either 30, 56 or 60 days for excessive flight hours and fraudulent check rides (the proof of which have been publicly posted for months on our site petitioning for a proper investigation into the crash, including the actions of the CEO Udom Tantiprasongchai).
DCA Deputy Director Vittuchai - a close friend of Udom's - was either removed from his post or is no longer the press contact for the DCA after the FAA, the press and our petition site complained about his claim that the crash of One-Two-Go/Orient Thai OG269 was "unavoidable" and due to "windsheer". (You can also see the black box transcription on the petition site. It shows that windsheer was hardly a factor. The crash occurred because the captain Arief was incapacitated and the F/O Montri was incompetent.)
One-Two-Go/Orient Thai's managing director Kajit Habanananda is a close friend of the new DCA Deputy Director Chaisak. After a brief meeting between the two friends, Orient Thai was allowed to continue flight. (If you can read Thai, you can see the statement of AOC revocation on the petition site.)Details and proof are publicly available at www.InvestigateUdom.com (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php)

[rolibkk]

It's one of those offical letters from any Thai Government Agencies. While it does state that it affects the AOC affects Orient Thai and One-Two-Go, it also says that it concerns MD 80 operations.
Do they have AOC for different types of aircrafts?

This leaves Udom with a legal loophole to continue to operate other aircrafts. Can they do anything? Not really. Coz if they go against him, he could file a suit in one of the courts (administrative court?) that the order issued by the DCA is confusing/not clear/wrong.

Problem solved for both: DCA saves its face with the order. Udom can fly his 747s and save some money for not having to fly the MD80s. And the way I judge him he will not have to pay any salaries to his staff as most of them are on a one or three month contract allowing him to avoid any employment laws.

[411A]

About the only time 'ole Udom didn't get his way was in September 1999 when our company repossessed one of his TriStars for non-payment of lease.
We took it right out from under his nose and there was nothing he could do about it...as it was newly US registered.

[westafricaops]

Is it a known fact that Orient Thai has its A.O.C. supended?
Also, Is it a known fact that Orient Thai has lost the UN charters?

If both of these are true why was -UTK (Orient Thai B747-300) seen departing Dhaka, Bangladesh TODAY?
(A few years back the only reason for Orient Thai to be in Dhaka was to pick up UN troops)

Wes Afra

[spk]

OX is stilled allowed to operate the 747 fleet since the audit did not find problem with that fleet.

[westafricaops]

The rot is in whole barrel!!! It is not in just one apple!!!
Trust me-I know first hand-I flew the 747 at OT for one year.
Udom also employees 'cheap' Indonesian and Philipio pilots on the 747 fleet.
I always assumed that if an A.O.C. is suppended it covers everything the airline flies. Stupid me! :ugh:

Wes Afra

[b747heavy]

Two OT 747's in HKG early morning of the 29th (around 3am), which means they are on a night turn, i would say one from BKK, the other from HKT?

[magicmorris]

The OT 747 has been a regular in DXB over the past few weeks!

[MilktrayUK]

Just going through my in-box and found the following email. I am subscribed to the FCO travel advice for a number of countries, including Thailand. This email was send by the FCO on 25th July.


This email is to advise you that an article matching one of your interests has been published: Thailand.

This advice has been reviewed and reissued with an amendment to the Air Travel section (1-2 Go airlines suspended for 30 days from 22 July 2008) . The overall level of the advice has not changed.

(see travel advice legal disclaimer) (http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-living-overseas/travel-advice-by-country/disclaimer)



Please click on the link to view the article: here (http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-living-overseas/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/thailand)


The link to the full article is Thailand (http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-living-overseas/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/thailand)


Air Travel

Don Muang Airport (the old international airport) re-opened for some domestic flights on 25 April 2007. You should check with your airline which airport your flight will arrive at and depart from.

Orient Thai 1-2 Go Flight number OG269 from Bangkok to Phuket crashed on landing at Phuket airport on Sunday 16 September 2007. Over 80 people were killed, including 10 British Nationals. You should be aware that the Thai Civil Aviation Department suspended 1-2 Go operations for 30 days from 22 July 2008. As 1-2 Go does not operate to the UK or the EU it has not been possible to assess their safety standards.


The European Commission has published a list of air carriers that are subject to an operating ban or restrictions within the European Union. The list can be found at the following link: http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/safety/flywell_en.htm (http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/safety/flywell_en.htm).


It is good to see that the travel advice is made available through the regular channels in the UK at least. This site contains the official government advice for travellers and is referenced by travel agencies / tour operators as well as business.

[InvestigateUdom]

Orient Thai's AOC specifies MD-80s and B747s. To the best of my knowledge, since the AOC specifies both types, there is no legal way of suspending the AOC for just one type. Despite that, Orient Thai is flying.

[411A]

To the best of my knowledge....

Could well be the reason...:}

[westafricaops]

Biman aircraft suffers technical glitches for 2nd time in 2 days

A Boeing 747-300 aircraft of Biman Bangladesh Airlines Ltd suffered technical glitches on Friday at the Dubai International Airport a day after it faced similar trouble in Jeddah.

On Thursday, Biman's Dhaka-bound flight from Jeddah was delayed for about 20 hours due to hydraulic fail­ure of the same aircraft.

Biman leased the aircraft from a Thai airline on June 2 for a year to minimise flight dis­ruption.

The aircraft remained grounded for a day due to tech­nical problems about 15 days ago, Biman sources said.

"The Dhaka-bound flight left the Dubai Airport at about 8:00am Friday (Bangladesh Standard Time). But it had to return to the airport following a fire warning from its internal system, which was later proved false," a Biman high-up told The Daily Star last night.

After a while the aircraft tried to take off, but failed due to technical glitches, the offi­cial said adding that the stranded passengers were flown to Dhaka by another flight.

The aircraft was scheduled to leave for Dhaka at 9:00pm yesterday about 30 hours behind schedule, Biman sources said.

"The Boeing 747-300 plane that Biman leased from Orient Thai is having technical prob­lems repeatedly," the official said, adding that they will face problems in operating hajj flights if the aircraft is dogged by technical glitches.

Airport sources said Biman had to reschedule its Kuala Lumpur-bound flight twice as the Boeing 747-300 could not reach Dhaka in time.

The flight, originally sched­uled at 10:00pm Friday, had been rescheduled at 8:00pm yesterday. Later, the schedule was changed again, airport sources added.

This is UTK. Very sad, UTK was a very nice and reliable aircraft when OT received it from KLM. I guess besides low budget pilots Udom also employs low budget mechanics. Hence the phrase, "if you want to die-fly Orient Thai!"

Please tell me how a Certificate suspension only effects one fleet and not the other?

Wes Afra

[Baccara Bar]

West Afria Ops is correct. Orient Thai's maintenace is **** just like One To Go. Same mechanics working on OX and One To Go and are just told by Udom to fix nothing. Udom also recruits cheap pilots who cannot get a job anywhere else. They do not think laterally and just do as they are told. This is the truth. Attack Udom and shut OX and One To Go down and do not allow Udom to start any other airline.

[InvestigateUdom]

A translation of the DCA document regarding One-Two-Go and Orient Thai's AOC revocation is available on the InvestigteUdom.com petition site. (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php) Here are a few highlights:
DCA inspectors notified Orient Thai management of the excessive working hours of the pilots after the accident of (and presumably related to) OG269
Orient Thai management acknowledged the truth of excessive hours at that time and continued to fly hours in excess of legal maximums.
"OT [Orient Thai] had no Quality Assurance for self-inspection"
"Flight operation officers did not obtain fudamental training and procedures in case of emergency"
"Flight operations officers of OTG [One-Two-Go] had to work with those of OT [Orient Thai], meaning their duties were inseparable" It's worth reading the whole document. Just go to the petition site and scroll to bottom or look for Aug 5. (And please sign while you're there.)

[itaintgoingtothemoon]

i've noticed nok air leased 73's are being returned to lessors. so far 2 have arrived in SBZ this week.

whats the story, down sizing or worse?

[ZFT]

Don't put Nok in the same catagory as Udom's rubbish. Nok are suffering economically hence the downsizing.

Nothing dubious at all.

[rolibkk]

they're downsizing ... from 9 airplanes to 3. 66% reduction of capacity has nothing to do with the economy, but it is pure mismanagement. Just a bunch of useless people than at OX. They might have a better image, but they are neither less corrupt than OX nor do they pay their suppliers any better.
But agree, actual ops is much more professional and airplanes get better maintenance - but that's de to the influence and support of TG.

[Xeque]

This was taken yesterday (Wednesday) lunchtime at Suvarnabhumi as we taxied out.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s113/Xeque22/EVA003.jpg

Doesn't look like Udom's getting any flying done at the moment.

[Virtual Reality]

Saw a B747-300 (UTM??) in HKG on 13th Aug morning........:confused:

Wonder why the aircraft is still flying............:eek:

[misd-agin]

“It was clearly pilot error,” said Rind, a software engineer with a background in aviation. “There was no evidence of anything wrong with the plane.” She believes the captain was incompetent and was probably suffering from fatigue.
Arief had a history of freezing at the controls during crises and had been working excessive hours, according to a documentary by Australia’s Channel Nine television.
Crew rosters showed that at the time of the crash Arief had worked longer than the 110 hours a month allowed by Thai regulators. These rosters were handed to the authorities by the makers of the documentary.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The crash was Sept. 16. Had CA Arief flown 110 hrs in September or are they talking about the preceeding 30 days?

[InvestigateUdom]

You can see the rosters for yourself. See the petition proof link (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php). Look for May 1, 2008. You'll have to figure the number of hours for each leg.

Both pilots were in excess on hours. Montri was the flying pilot.
The excess hours indicates just one of the many highly foreseeable systemic failures. See the black box information, posted on June 12, 2008, to see how it all played out in the final moments

[misd-agin]

The "proof link" just shows the duty times, not the flight times.

I'm surprised you don't have the actual flight time provided ("you'll have to figure the number of hours for each leg") since someone is touting "more than 110 hrs of flight time" but then has a link to their duty periods, which is different than actual flight time.

[InvestigateUdom]

The flight rosters documents are proof because they are the actual rosters used by Orient Thai/One-Two-Go.

When I analyze the routes, it appears that both pilots flew in excess of 100 hours. That's flight time, not duty time. Obviously duty time would take the numbers considerably higher. (Btw, both pilots were scheduled for more flights that day.)

Of course, no one need trust my calculations. Everyone can see DCA deputy director-general Vitichai admit the pilots were in excess of legal hours on the Australian TV program.

Or a person could read the DCA's document stating the reasons for suspending Orient Thai/One-Two-Go's MD-80 fleet. In addition to a number of dangerous and illegal actions by the airline, such as fraudulent check rides, no QA for self-inspection, a lack of fundamental training for emergencies, the document listed excessive flight hours after management had been previously warned of their excessive hours.

Please sign our petition (http://investigateudom.com/) asking for a independent and transparent investigation into the root causes of the crash of OG269. The video and an English translation of the DCA document are available on the petition site "Proof and Evidence (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php)" link

[InvestigateUdom]

Apparently One-Two-Go has removed several engines from the MD-80 fleet and is trucking them off the airport at Don Mueang Airport.
Also, at least one airframe (+ engines) has been re-registered under a US "N".

[blandy62]

Vitual Reality, Flights to HKG are operated by OrientThai not OneTwoGo...

As for the aicraft, if you saw HS-UTM, it's a 747-100SR/SUD not a 747-300

[Earl]

This also happened with Thaisky a couple of years back.
After the Tristar operation went down and the crews not paid they leased an aircraft, MD-80 if I remember correctly.
When they failed to pay the lease payments the ground engineers removed the engine to prevent the leasing company from repo the aircraft, due to non payment on the lease.
Perhaps the same thing going on here?

[b747heavy]

In late 2005 or early 2006 (cannot remember exactly), Udom had a 757 repossessed by a US company. Their inspectors arrived and spent several weeks going through maintenance documents and logbooks in an effort to locate the original serial numbered parts that arrived with the aircraft when the lease was accepted. I remember taxiing past the 757 fleet (3 at the time) with two of them in pieces as they were now finding the missing parts and refitting them to the original aircraft. :ugh:

Around that time, Cho had copied a letter on the copy machine and mistakenly left one behind. I was by chance using the machine after this and noted the letter which stated that the aircraft was to be returned to the lessor for non-payment of lease fees. I cannot remember the exact figure, but Udom was in the red by many many months and to the tune of several million dollars (of the US kind).

:hmm:

[Thaihawk]

Earl

The MD-80 you refer to being used by Thaisky was registration UR-CDR and the engines were re-installed at Don Muang just after that airport closed and the jet then departed.It is unlikely it ever flew any commercial flights with Thaisky.

[InvestigateUdom]

We've obtained a video of an Orient Thai UN charter flight. The flight attendants are on the aircraft for over 24 hours.
A description of the video's contents and access to the video is available on the Investigate Udom Proof and Evidence link. (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php) Look for Aug 18, 2008.
(If you don't speak Thai, you might want to stick with the description of the video.)

[InvestigateUdom]

A kind traveler took a few photos of One-Two-Go aircraft sans engines:
See the InvestigateUdom image site (http://investigateudom.smugmug.com) click on the "Relevant Photos" gallery.

[ChristySweet]

Error? No mention of pilot's failure to fly.


Bangkok Post | General news | One-Two-Go, Orient Thai still grounded (http://www.bangkokpost.com/270808_News/27Aug2008_news11.php)

<<<AVIATION

One-Two-Go, Orient Thai still grounded

AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK


Orient Thai Airlines and its budget carrier One-Two-Go have been grounded for another two months for failing to bring pilot training up to standard. Aviation Department director-general Chaisak Angsuwan said yesterday the two airlines had failed to correct shortcomings since they were first suspended for 30 days on July 22.

The suspension period had therefore been extended for another 30 days, from Aug 21 to Sept 20.

If the two airlines continued to fall short of the required standard their operating licences would be cancelled, Mr Chaisak said.

Neiother (sic) airline had sent their MD-80 pilots for refresher training as required. They had failed to produce operation management and flight safety manuals, and to introduce a quality assurance system.

Mr Chaisak said the investigation into the crash of One-Two-Go flight OG269 at Phuket airport on Sept 16 last year was caused by a combination of human error and bad weather. The plane crashed in heavy rain and high winds while trying to land, claiming the lives of 89 passengers and crew and injuring 41 others.

Company chairman Udom Tantiprasongchai admitted yesterday the airlines had not sent all their MD-80 pilots for re-training.

He said there were more than 60 pilots, so they had to wait for their turn. This would take at least another 30 days.

All 10 of the airlines' Boeing 747 pilots had completed their retraining.


Orient Thai now operates only one daily flight from Suvarnabhumi airport to Hong Kong.>>>>>>

[ChristySweet]

To remember those who lost their lives in the Thai Orient/1-2 Go crash that was
wholly preventable.

At Phuket Airport, September 16, 2008 as near as possible to the site of the crash and at the same time
of day 3:30 PM ( Afternoon)

Also, there will be demonstrations in front of Thai Embassy in France and perhaps

Washington, DC to protest the Thai DCA's
( Dept. of Civil Aviation) apparent lack of regulatory authority regarding this
airline company . ( Corruption)

The U.S.A. FAA is considering , and being aggressively lobbied to downgrade
Thailand's Aviation safety standard.
More details to follow

[InvestigateUdom]

We are told a number of the Orient Thai 747-200 pilots are not properly qualified for their aircraft. Redacting the names of the pilots seems appropriate at this time. The reasons for lack of qualification are:
No ground school (2 pilots)
Qualified for the Airbus 330, not the 747-200 (1 pilot)
Qualified for the 747-400, not the 747-200 (1 pilot)Can someone confirm this information?
www.InvestigateUdom.com (http://www.pprune.org/www.InvestigateUdom.com) promoting a transparent and proper investigation into the crash of OG269.

[B772]

I was told a number of years ago some L1011 F/O's did not have any formal training. It was obtained "on the job.".

[Geragau]

Heard from some sources that quite a few former " unqualified " Orient Thai pilots migrated to fragrant harbour to seek their fortunes as big wigs in HKA............then caused quite a ruckus there! Any truth to this?

[Flight Detent]

Well...

2 X no school + 1 X Airbus qualified + 1 X -400 qualified...

I'm guessing in that bunch that there's nobody that actually knows either how real airplanes work nor the slightest clue how to fly one!

Ooops, no computers...no can do!

Thank God for professional Flight Engineers!

Cheers...I think...FD...:ooh:

[ACMS]

An x CX chap joined very early in their operation and was told he would get sectors of line training then a check.

His first sector BKK HKG was the training AND check. Second sector was solo.:eek:

He had flown the classic before but not in quite a few years.:bored:

[Arfur Dent]

Yes - I know the guy. Surprised really that he did it. In CX pilots converting back to the Classic do a full course including groundschool, sim and 12 sectors. Then solo. That's quite a difference.
How is such a lack of qual allowed by our (so called) regulators.

[InvestigateUdom]

We've received proof about dangerous and illegal actions at Orient Thai/One-Two-Go.
We've also receive proof, evidence and credible testimony about major failures at SkyStar Airlines and Phuket Air.

If you are interested in a summary of the information provided to the FAA - all known by the DCA - see the InvestigateUdom.com Proof and Evidence page (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php). Look for Sept 15, 2008

[b747heavy]

From their website, updated on the 12th Sep 08...


"September, 12, 2008

Dear Valued Passengers

Due to the recent uncertainty of Thai political situation, please be informed that One Two Go scheduled services for all domestic destinations will be resumed at later date than originally plan on 15th September, 2008.

Thank you for your kind understanding


Regards,
One-Two-Go Airlines."

Anyone see those MD's moving from VTBD??? They would be needing a few engines if anything is be believed?

[InvestigateUdom]

Pictures of the engine-less airplanes on our petition image site (http://investigateudom.smugmug.com/).

Fuel prices, political unrest, bad weather. Udom never takes responsibility.

[ChristySweet]

reprinted from InvestigateUdom.Com

<<<<A Summary of the Information Provided to the FAA on Thai-based Aviation
In our efforts for a proper investigation and accountability into the crash of Orient Thai’s
One-Two–Go OG269, we have received documents, photographs, and crew allegations demonstrating improper behavior of various Thai airlines and of Thailand’s civil aviation
authority, the DCA.
The evidence and allegations make it clear that prior to, during, and after the crash of OG269, the Thai DCA knew or should have known that Thai airlines were continually compromising safety. While much of the evidence suggests outright corruption and incompetence, even taken in the best possible light, DCA oversight of Thai aviation is
inexcusably lax.
Information we received came from pilots and personnel working for Orient Thai Airlines, One-Two-Go Airlines, SkyStar Airways and Phuket Air. The vast majority of this information
was known or could have been easily discovered by the DCA, including:
1. Airlines regularly falsify check rides. In one case, XXX informed DCA Deputy Director-
General Vitichai [sometimes spelled Wittichai] of 4 fraudulent check rides taking place in
December 2007. No action was taken by the DCA upon XXX’s notification. Nor was any
action taken after we made the material public. The DCA finally took some action just
prior to the FAA’s recent visit. No management was every censored.
2. We have very credible testimony from pilots who learn of passing sim checks they have
never taken.
3. We have very credible testimony of pilots who are not qualified for the aircraft they fly.
4. The airlines regularly require their pilots to fly in excess of the maximum legal limits
(110 hours a month in Thailand) and ICAO (100 hours a month) with full knowledge of
the DCA.
In an effort to show oversight in hindsight, the DCA recently ordered the pilots to
produce historic flight summaries for the FAA. Out of fear of being the scapegoats for
the excessive hours, some of the pilots refused to provide such paperwork.
5. The airlines regularly conduct maintenance malpractice.
A. Severe problems that have been “squawked” (made known by the pilots to
maintenance personnel) are often reported by maintenance personnel to have
cleared up or been remedied, only to reappear for the flight crew.
B. Inspections are frequently done on paper only.
C. Heavily documented cases where improper maintenance and illegal flights nearly
lead to catastrophes include:

•
At Orient Thai, a serious issue with a left engine thrust reverser on a
747 was ignored. One western-trained pilot resigned due to the airline’s
refusal to stop flying the aircraft. The thrust reverser sleeve eventually
separated from the aircraft – in mid air. The aircraft could have lost a
wing but fortunately did not.
•

Phuket Air needed to ferry an aircraft from Saudi Arabia to Jakarta for
an engine change. In order to legally fly the aircraft, the engine that
required replacement needed to be deemed serviceable. Papers were
signed and it was suddenly “serviceable”. Unfortunately, the engine
came apart during take-off, dumping engine parts including the entire
turbine for miles. The DCA had just 4 days previously audited Phuket
Air’s maintenance department. [There are publicly available pictures of
the separated turbine resting in the parking lot of a Saudi hotel.]
•

Three weeks after the first attempt to fly the Phuket Air 747, Phuket Air
violated numerous crew, maintenance and civil regulations and the
terms of their insurance why the flew the 3 engine 747 to Jakarta. Both
flight events were highly public and the sequence of events could not
reasonably have been unknown to the DCA.
6. At the time of the crash of OG269, Orient Thai had no training manuals, no safety
manual and no safety program all of which must be monitored by the DCA.
7. The airlines regularly operate in violation of the Minimum Equipment List (MEL). For
some airlines, the MEL is only a copy of the Master Minimum Equipment List (MMEL).
Both are gross violations of ICAO standards and very unsafe.
8. At least one airline regularly flies overweight because of an inability of the staff to
properly track and convert weights between metric and English systems.
9. A lack of clear boundaries between the airlines and the DCA both creates opportunities
for corruption and makes it clear that the DCA is aware of Thai airline violations of safe
procedures:
A. The DCA runs a program in which a DCA agent works in the DCA office for 5 days a week and then flies 2 days a week with their assigned airline. The airline pays
the DCA agent’s salary for the days spent at the airline. Besides conflict of
interest based on the payment and responsibilities of the DCA agent, these DCA agents are themselves exceeding duty time by working 7 days a week.
[A few days before the FAA’s recent trip to Thailand, the DCA altered the
program to 1 flying day per week for agents.]
•

DCA agent Praphon is assigned to Orient Thai’s One-Two-Go fleet. As a working pilot there, Agent Praphon is aware of and complicit in the
airline’s violations of ICAO and legal standards, including fraudulent and
frequently non-existent training and re-currency programs, lack of
required manuals and training program, and excessive flight and duty
hours and maintenance fraud.
1. Proof of these frauds by Orient Thai are publicly available and have
been given to the FAA.
2. Several pilots allege Agent Phraphon regularly extorts Thai First
Officers to pay for prostitutes on the Chaing Mai route.
B. DCA Deputy Director-General Vitichai and Orient Thai and One-Two-Go CEO
Udom Tantiprasongchai are “golf buddies”. Their relationship and its particulars
have led to credible allegations that the DCA overlooks Orient Thai and One-Two- Go infractions and that DCA Deputy Director-General Vitichai protects Mr.
Tantiprasongchai’s interests. There are credible allegations of bribery, including allegations from witnesses to such bribery.
•

In one well-known incident, a scheduled 747 flight was delayed by the Flight Engineer because the landing pilot had overheated the brakes.
Rather than tolerate the delay, the pilot physically removed the flight
engineer’s bags from the aircraft and departed – with passengers – but
without the Flight Engineer. The incident was widely known and was
documented by the Flight Engineer. The DCA took no action.
•

DCA Deputy Director-General Vitichai admitted on camera that Orient
Thai’s One-Two-Go pilots were vastly over hours in the crash of OG269.
He further acknowledged that Orient Thai Airlines had provided crash
investigators, including the NTSB, with fraudulent flight hour
information. However, he never notified the NTSB of the fraud, even
though lead investigator Jill Andrews of the NTSB ghost wrote the crash
investigation report for the DCA.
[In February 2008, we informed Ms. Andrews of the fraud. In May, we
provided her with the true rosters. In June, Ms. Andrews completed the
crash report. The DCA has not released that report.]
•

In February 2008, long after he had the OG269 black box information
and proof of excessive flight hours, knowledge of an improper training
program and lack of a safety program at Orient Thai and One-Two-Go,
DCA Deputy Director-General Vitichai told the press, “No punishment will
be imposed on any agency or personnel after completion of the
investigation [into the crash of OG269] because the accident was
beyond control.”
[The immediate cause of the crash was flight crew error during a bad
weather landing. One pilot appears to have been incapacitated and the
other to have panicked. The root causes of the crash are shown here.]
A Category 1/Acceptable rating would require the FAA to conclude that the DCA licenses and oversees air carriers in accordance with ICAO aviation safety standards. It seems reasonable to expect Thailand could only achieve a Category 1/Acceptable rating after:



The DCA decertifies every airline that provided it with fraudulent information.



The DCA dismisses every manager and agent who accepted such obviously fraudulent
information.



A newly reconstituted DCA shows an ability and willingness to competently oversee Thai
civil aviation. If the FAA does not find Thailand in compliance with the ICAO standards, then the FAA must
demote Thailand’s ranking to Category 2/Conditional or to Delisted/Unacceptable.
It is difficult to understand how the FAA itself could be performing appropriate oversight and have provisionally concluded that the DCA performs oversight in accordance with ICAO standards.>>>>

[HotDog]

Christy, I'm not trying to defend Thai Orient, Udom or Thai DCA but lets get the facts straight.
In one well-known incident, a scheduled 747 flight was delayed by the Flight Engineer because the landing pilot had overheated the brakes
Rather than tolerate the delay, the pilot physically removed the flight
engineer’s bags from the aircraft and departed – with passengers – but
without the Flight Engineer. The incident was widely known and was
documented by the Flight Engineer. The DCA took no action.

The flight originated in Phuket and it was a L1011 with an ex Cathay flight engineer pilot convert in command. The rest of the story is fact. No action was taken by DCA but the pilot is no longer employed by Thai Orient.

[FlexibleResponse]

Yes - I know the guy. Surprised really that he did it.

I'm not. Bull**** and ego have a lot to answer for.

[afvap]

still grounded!

Bangkok Post | General news | Airlines' grounding extended (http://www.bangkokpost.com/190908_News/19Sep2008_news10.php)

[ChristySweet]

About the 747/ or 10-11 w/o flight engineer,
...go to InvestigateUdom.com to update that information, perhaps it's a typo.
If you know of this specific instance of safety infraction , please consider every bit of signed testimony helps .

Thank you .

Christy

[Bob Hawke]

I saw Orient Thai Cargo 747 in HKG three days ago. Does that mean they are still operating or has someone else got hold of these ragged old frames and not changed the colors yet?

[Xeque]

Others have mentioned an OT aircraft at HKG earlier in this thread. I guess it's possible that one of the OT fleet was out of Thailand when the rest of the fleet was grounded and has remained outside (based in HKG??) to enable it to keep flying. I would think that this would require the cost of several crews stationed at various destinations or some imaginative crew planning to be able to do this with only one aircraft :suspect:

[rolibkk]

The DCA suspended MD80 ops only. 747 are still allowed to operate. Unbelievable, but that's how it is. Wonder if the cheating, ignoring rules, not doing proper maintenance, faking reports etc. only affected MD80s .....

[piratepete]

I am one of the people so prominently mentioned as having "failed" to have passed on safety concerns to the then management of OX.This is complete rubbish and upsets me.The complete opposite is in fact true.You cannot be effective in this situation as an employee if you have an antagonistic approach, you must use persuasion (CRM)......and hope that reason prevails.I did all I could to get them to introduce SMS, QA(OPS), etc etc etc......but was ignored so moved on.Dont shoot the messenger.

[ChristySweet]

Pirate Pete,
No one is blaming this on employees . This is criminal mismanagement by Udom and until he's at least indicted, you must understand that all the safety infractions need to see the light .
Yes you were ignored now please, come forward and testify at the site ... InvestigateUdom.com
I don't trust Thai DCA to do its job.

Do you??

[Nippon1]

A B747 is based in Dhaka operating for Biman in "One-to-Go" livery.

[InvestigateUdom]

The OT UN video (http://investigateudom.smugmug.com/gallery/5749659_Gb99z) is no longer password protected. (It is still in Thai. See the UN video synopsis (http://investigateudom.com/files/OX_video.pdf), if you don't speak Thai.)

6161 signatures on the Investigate Udom petition (http://www.InvestigateUdom.com). Have you asked your friends, significant others, parents etc to sign? If not yet, please do. We thank you.

More news soon....

[Rookie56]

One Two Go to fly again
Thai low-cost carrier One Two Go Airlines is expected to resume
flights next month after passing safety audits by Thailand’s
Department of Civil Aviation (DCA), the Bangkok Post reported.
The airline’s founder, Udom Tantiprasongchai (pictured), confi rmed that
the carrier was close to re-securing its Air Operator Certifi cate, which
has been suspended since August. Meanwhile a senior DCA offi cial said
that One Two Go had only a few points in its fl ight operation manual to
be adjusted, a process which is likely to be completed by 20 October.

[InvestigateUdom]

It's the order from Orient Thai COO Cho Ting Tsang to the flight scheduler - and copying Udom Tantiprasongchai - giving detailed instructions for the falsification of the flight rosters and requesting falsification of the log books after the crash of OG269 on Sept 16, 2007.
InvestigateUdom.com proof and evidence link (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php) Look for Oct 8, 2008 (at the bottom).

Udom is not in jail. Udom continues to run the airline. Now that this email has been made public, Udom and the DCA are sure to cut Cho loose. (Where we expect he will face charges in the US.)

Look here on the InvestigateUdom.smugmug.com, our video and picture site. There you can see DCA Deputy General Vitichai admiting he had receieved fraudulent rosters (http://investigateudom.smugmug.com/gallery/5737966_hXppV#354372047_KLMxn-A-LB) from Orient Thai back in October, 2007.
Vitichai still works for the DCA and in fact leads the crash *investigation*. [ha ha] Udom still owns and runs Orient Thai/One-Two/Go.

Oversight? Safety? Professionalism? Competance? Care or Concern for human life? Legal?
No. No. No. No. No. No.

More soon.

[Scouser1]

Just read that latest email re falsifying the records- it's truly shocking! Why aren't these clowns in jail?

[kristofera]

Having read the email on Bonnie's website I'm just wondering: has the email along with source information (email headers, witness testimony as to how it was extracted etc) been provided to the relevant [law enforcement] authorities? I'm assuming that the headers and other information needed to authenticate the origins of the email is available and preserved somewhere.

[InvestigateUdom]

Are there a credible authorities in Thailand?
I ask the question seriously. Names and contact information appreciated.

[ChristySweet]

I.U.,
No I do not think there are credible authorities in T land....
The ONLY way to change things is for outside pressure, If the US FAA is failing to accurately rate Thai aviation then there is a last resort. Protests
I posted this before and it was removed, perhaps Mod will allow re post.
The day that 1-2 Go resumes flying to HKT I will protest at the airport at time of its landing .
It would be nice to have some company , or others at Bangkok or Chang Mai airports.



Fly Thai..and Die !! or
One-Two...Die !!

[ChristySweet]

Well, At least The Nation printed my letter...As did the Phukette Gazette

Sometimes wishing for the Stars gets you the Moon.
If we call for arrest and prosecution of Thai DCA Officials.. maybe they'll roll on Udom..Maybe

Have to admit after watching Air Crash Investigation last night on the Alaskan Air deliberate mismanagement on maintenance causing the crash in 2000 , not greasing the screw in the tail controlling flight surfaces - no arrests were made then , either.
Is the US FAA corrupt or just incompetent, too?


Bangkok's Independent Newspaper (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/worldhotnews/read.php?newsid=30084318)


<<<<<<Aviation authorities negligent in restoring licences

I am in utter disbelief that the Thai aviation authorities are even considering the return of One-Two Go/Orient-Thai's operating certificates after grounding the airline, following the Phuket disaster, for disregarding safety regulations.

The airline's executives should be arrested and indicted for the murder of those passengers. And perhaps the head of the Thai aviation authorities, too.

Tourists beware: none of these censures would have come about had it not been for an American woman exposing mismanagement and oversight that the Thai authorities could no longer ignore.

I urge anyone who may be flying within Thailand to read (at www.InvestigateUdom.com (http://www.investigateudom.com/)) the astounding list of accusations about the authorities' apparent inability to properly regulate the airline industry.

The US FAA is being lobbied aggressively to downgrade Thailand's safety rating. Failing that, the US congress will be petitioned to stop funding the FAA rating programme as an utter waste of taxpayers' money.

CHRISTY K SWEET >>>>>>

[tbavprof]

From today's Bangkok Post (http://www.bangkokpost.com/161008_News/16Oct2008_news11.php)

And of course, the whitewash brush is out again. The foreign devils are the cause of all problems.

Mr Wuthichai said the department wants Thai executives to take over the management of One-Two-Go. He argued foreign managers who were running the airline were so obsessed with making profits that they arranged schedules which prevented pilots taking refresher training or resting sufficiently between flights.
This attitude was definitely a threat to the safety of pasengers.
Foreign executives were only interested in making maximum profit without being concerned with the improvement of pilot efficiency, he said.
He expected Thai managers would emphasise quality standards, understand Thai corporate culture and promote Thai-style services.
It also demanded Thais make up at least 40% of the airlines' pilots. and

If One-Two-Go passes its re-evaluation on Monday, the public can be confident of the safety of its services, he said, adding the department applied strict controls on all airlines operating in Thailand...The department attributed the tragedy to a problem in cooperation between foreign and Thai pilots.I wonder if the NTSB report came to the same conclusion?

[InvestigateUdom]

Credible reports that Orient Thai is flying the One-Two-Go MD-80s while the AOC is still revoked, while using an Orient Thai call sign. (BKK is showing the departures as 747s.)

If you've seen this or have a picture or log of such an event, please contact [email protected].

My sincerest thanks.

[spud]

One of their MDs was at HKG yesterday. No idea of the callsign or flight number.

[411A]

All those calling for Udom's airlines to be permanently grounded are pi**ing into a typhoon...it will do little good.
The fix is in....unless of course another deadly crash occurs.

Then....maybe.

[Thaihawk]

MD-82 HS-OMH has been reported as test flying at Don Muang during September.

[InvestigateUdom]

Test flights don't take passengers to and from HKG.

[bkkfly]

As far as I know none of the MDs are fitted with life rafts only inflatable slides so it would be illegal to by flying them to HKG.

[extreme P]

As far as I know none of the MDs are fitted with life rafts only inflatable slides so it would be illegal to by flying them to HKG.

You could not be more wrong.

[Earl]

Forget the life rafts.
Flying for any reason without a AOC or suspended AOC is not allowed anywhere.
How did they even get a flight plan for this????
You are all barking up the wrong tree here.
This is not even allowed in Darkest Africa.
If this is true someone should notify the insurance company, sure they would want to hear this.
And what idiots operated this flight knowing this!

[anartificialhorizon]

I think you may be over reacting a little bit Earl....

Just because one of their a/c was up in HKG does not mean they are flying without an AOC etc..

It could be on lease, test flight, been sold, ferry flight etc etc etc ...

[Earl]

True, could have been sold.

[InvestigateUdom]

These are Orient Thai commercial flights that are substituting the use of the MD80s for the 747s.
Udom's still in charge. (Since we made Cho's letter public, he's been fired.)

[ChristySweet]

I thought I'd read Cho is American.. Is he in Thailand or America?

[FrequentSLF]

These are Orient Thai commercial flights that are substituting the use of the MD80s for the 747s

Has been proven?

[Xeque]

There you are - up front - left hand seat - taxiing out and behind you is an MD80 in 1-2-Go livery but responding to ATC with an Orient Thai callsign.
What do you think? - really? - What do you actually make of that? - Sheesh!!

[FrequentSLF]

There you are - up front - left hand seat - taxiing out and behind you is an MD80 in 1-2-Go livery but responding to ATC with an Orient Thai callsign.
What do you think? - really? - What do you actually make of that? - Sheesh!!

I was just asking...

I seen various reasons why the aircraft was there (as posted by anartificialhorizon). And I repeat my question "it has been proven?". I can hardly believe that HKG will let a flight take off o land with out AOC... that's why I am asking...but seems that raising questions on this thread is not allowed

[InvestigateUdom]

It's irrelevant. Orient Thai - including but not limited to One-Two-Go - had the AOC revoked for the MD-80s. See the DCA order (http://investigateudom.com/files/news12goEnglish.pdf). Neither Orient Thai nor One-Two-Go can legally fly those airplanes.

I'll make two quick forecasts here:
The DCA will suddenly announce the Orient Thai had been given back their AOC before these flights (about 2 weeks ago.) Trouble is, that will contradict an interview Witichai gave to the Bangkok post (http://www.bangkokpost.com/161008_News/16Oct2008_news11.php) on Oct 15. So they'll have to come up with a more creative creation.
Eventually, all blame for the crash will be put on Cho Ting Tsang. He's the American. He can be cut lose. You can see that happening in the interview above where foreigners are blamed. Eventually, Udom and Witichai will make a move to try to pin the entire blame on Cho.Christy: Cho is naturalized American. He worked for Orient Thai/One-Two-Go in the US and in Thailand, traveling between the countries.

[The Codfather]

I believe that 2 of the thai 747 are being bought to Europe to be sold on. Think they are going to cargo operator in Europe, :hmm:

[InvestigateUdom]

That may be, but they're also substituting the aircraft for regularly scheduled Orient Thai 747 flights.
Monday October 13, 9am OX203 out of Hong Kong was a One-Two-Go MD80. It took off 07Right.

[fdr]

Photo taken on 11 OCT 2008 at HKG of OTG MD80.

JetPhotos.Net Photo » HS-OMC (CN: 49479) One-Two-GO by Orient Thai McDonnell Douglas MD-82 by Dennis Chow (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6384503&nseq=0)

[b747heavy]

but in the Bangkok Post article, it states the following:

"One-Two-Go's parent company, Orient Thai Airlines, resumed services on Sept 20, when the department restored the operating licence of the airline that uses MD80 aircraft."

(my bold)

OTG may still be on the ground, but it looks like OT is in the clear for MD operations. I do not wish to defend Udom, but the DCA has reinstated the MD AOC for OT, just not for OTG as yet. We all know it is the same bucket of sh!t management running both airlines, however I suspect that the DCA has now mandated that the operations structure and manuals for OTG are more formally separated from that of OT, to better distinguish the two? :ugh:

That will not fix what has happened or what is going to happen, it just means that the DCA has found a way to keep Udom's head above water long enough to ensure that before their golf memberships and cars get too old, they get new ones before too long. :E

[Towerman]

Udom is currently in Tokyo with JAL where he is "buying" a batch of B747-300 aircraft - in reality these are going to Kabo in Nigeria and Udom is making a nice mark up apparently he has exclu:bored:sive rights with an agency called Jalux to first refusal on all their disposals. He had the same 3 years ago on a batch of A300 Freighters

[tbavprof]

So let's see...In August, both AOC's are suspended. And on 20 Sept, the OX AOC is reinstated.

And in that 4-6-weeks, OX manages to re-configure their fleet from B74's to the MD-8's, train and certify all crews, and resolve all the maintenance and FOM issues that caused the suspension of the AOC of the carrier that was the source of their new fleet.

Yeah, right.

[b747heavy]

tbavprof,

In actual fact, the MD fleet already belonged to OT....if you look at the legal case against OT (provided on Thailand must investigate Udom Tantiprasongchai (http://www.investigateudom.com)) you will see the "Wet Least" agreement between OT and OTG.

I am sure you all know the difference, but just in case, "Wet Lease" means that the aircraft come with crew...that already belonged to OT...

In clause 11.0 of that agreement, it clearly states that the Lessor (OT) will be responsible for providing four sets of crew with each aircraft.

What I am getting at is the fact that OT already had all necessary equipment and resources to re-launch the MD operation under the OT banner without having to worry about the effects on OTG. I can only imagine that any rectification work required by the DCA was directed at OTG only and not that of OT (be it all the same at the end of the day)?

Again, I am not condoning what or how Udom runs his airline, but the facts need to be observed if any effect against OT or OTG is to be achieved.

[InvestigateUdom]

Another set of Orient Thai maintenance logs showing maintenance fraud and dangerous flight: InvestigateUdom (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php) look for Oct 22, 2008
(Also some older insurance documents.)

[tbavprof]

B74, I understand the wet lease, but have a difficult time reconciling your explanation with this information provided when the OX AOC suspension was lifted.

While One-Two-Go has been grounded, sister carrier Orient Thai Airlines has been permitted to continue operating. But Wuthichai (ed: Director of DCAT) says Orient Thai is only permitted to operate its Boeing 747s and is barred from operating Boeing MD-80-series aircraft, the aircraft type that One-Two-Go operates.One-Two-Go has 30-40 pilots but these are only about two weeks through their pilot proficiency checks (PPC), which normally take one month to complete, says Wuthichai.
These PPCs involve simulator training and One-Two-Go has had to send its pilots to a simulator centre in Madrid, Spain because the one it normally uses at Japan Airlines is unavailable, he says.
Wuthichai says DCA inspectors have been accompanying the pilots on these overseas trips,
Normally there is no need for inspectors to be present when the pilots are doing their simulator training but this is "a special case", he says.Free month in Madrid for DTAC inspectors! That is some serious oversight. Now I understand the delay.:ok:

[ChristySweet]

Remember though , these quotes are translated into English and can be quite unreliable.

[50100]

I believe Orient Thai is now doing the Hajj for Garuda out of Jakarta.

[B747-800]

I believe Orient Thai is now doing the Hajj for Garuda out of Jakarta.

i think i listened to them today enroute to jeddah. watta shame!:ugh:

[Earl]

Garuda HAJ was done by AAI for many years, what happened?
A half way decent company, not like these Thai ones, fly anything , no rules or regs allowed.
Even down to the sim checks, all pencil whipped, yet the Thai DCA allows this to continue.
Either fly or go home as they say, even if you are overdue by many months.
Been there done that.
What a low life operation with these Thai ones that operate using threats and intimidation.
Starts at breakfast in the hotel.
Manager says you wont be paid for this and that as stated in your contract etc.
You fly overtime and its not paid according to the agreed amount before you flew this.
Going to the aircraft you see MEL cat C items that have expired months ago and still open.
No go items signed off as we don't have the parts, signed off as airworthy and in the log books like this.
You say if you are going to lie at least make the paper work look honest in case we are ramp checked.
Yet you complain about this to the C/P you are labeled as a troublemaker.
All fire warnings have to be considered as false, even when they burn a hole through the engine cowling.
Same aircraft shells an engine out, parts all over the desert, all covered up.
Yes these all happened just a short while ago with a Thai ACMI company.
Better jobs out there folks.

[ChristySweet]

Earl,
Can you be specific, what airlines are doing this?
Is Thai air is included in your round up of " Thai airlines"?
Would you consider writing a letter to US FAA/ and NTSB as they are keeping Thailand at a category 1 "safe" status ( I believe).
This is what pisses me off - this whole country is nothing but one big lie and those people on Flight 269 were suckered into believing Thai commercial aviation is regulated properly .
This is what I want to uncover, just so people know and can make an INFORMED choice on whether to visit T land or not

[Rookie56]

Seems One-Two-Go might be flying again soon. Bangkok Thailand business, economic,market (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/11/13/business/business_30088326.php)

[411A]

..on whether to visit T land or not
Wouldn't make any difference...folks will visit Thailand anyway....for the obvious reasons.:E

[InvestigateUdom]

folks will visit Thailand anyway....for the obvious reasons If by that you mean the cheep sleazy sex trade, you risk obfuscating a real problem.

Many people would be willing to shrug off illegal, corrupt and dangerous aviation if those put in harm's way were only the sexual deviants who prey upon children. However, because Thailand markets herself as an exotic, friendly and affordable tourist destination, many of the travelers to Thailand are recent college grads and young retirees. These past, and potentially future, victims are not getting what they deserve.

The only route to aviation safety is accountability.

[411A]

The only route to aviation safety is accountability.

Do you really believe that Thai International, or indeed any other foreign airlines that operate to Thailand, are in such a poor state as Odom's operation?

If so, you are sadly mistaken.
You will get absolutely nowhere trying to besmirch Thailand's reputation with such tactics...except to be totally ignored.
In other words, you are a fool.
Why am I not surprised....:rolleyes:

[InvestigateUdom]

411A: Did I misunderstand your "obvious reasons" comment? If so, please clarify.

[411A]

Did I misunderstand your "obvious reasons" comment? If so, please clarify.

More than likely.
A pleasant inexpensive holiday with friendly local folks is a good reason, don't you think?
Painting the Thai aviation scene with such a broad derogatory brush is uncalled for, IMO.

[InvestigateUdom]

411A: You said: "Painting the Thai aviation scene with such a broad derogatory brush is uncalled for".
What, specifically, was my "broad derogatory brush" of the Thai aviation scene?

[ChristySweet]

Thailand, the government and her people have no regard for safety , in any aspect of travel, in any aspect of life.
This is the dirty lie, that's it's a safe destination.

Phuket Air is also dangerous according to pilots on this forum , in this thread .
We know Thai DCA didn't do its job with 1-2 Go and Orient Thai, why would it do its job with any other airline.
Perhaps Thai Air is safe, ( voluntarily ?) but who knows in this country innundated with corruption?

And just WHY hasn't Thai DCA completed one investigation into 3 separate incidents involving deaths on Thai airliners?

[FrequentSLF]

Thailand, the government and her people have no regard for safety , in any aspect of travel, in any aspect of life.
This is the dirty lie, that's it's a safe destination.

Those are very serious accusations and offensive to the Thai people. I do understand why you have been banned from the Thai forums.

I agree with 411A

Do you really believe that Thai International, or indeed any other foreign airlines that operate to Thailand, are in such a poor state as Odom's operation?

I will also add that TG is member of the star alliance, do you think that the other members will let the PAX to fly on an unsafe airline?

You want to go after Udom, do it but in your quest you should not generalize.

[ZFT]

On previous posts, I have urged you (and InvestigateUdom) to stop generalizing. Unfortunately that fell upon deaf ears. Now you are being quite insulting and derogatory against a nation, a nation you appear to be a guest of, if your profile is factual.

You are now probably having a negative impact on your apparent quest due to your general attitude to Thailand and its people.

Again, as stated before, I fully support any actions that dispose of the dross within this industry but I cannot agree with your constant inference that everything here is bad.

I totally agree with both FrequentSLF & 411A posts above.

[Xeque]

Yes IU. I have to agree with the previous posts. By all means go after Udom - he's a gangster and he needs to be taken down. But to generally paint Thailand with the same, negative brush is neither fair nor accurate.
There is a lot here that's very good, just as there is a lot that is very bad, But then, you can say that about most countries in the world.

[InvestigateUdom]

411A, ZFT, FrequentSLF, ChristySweet and everyone else following this thread:

We are all following this thread because we have concerns or interests related to Thai-based aviation. I suggest we stop the factually non-specific and ad hominem language of these past few posts, as they make the thread not worth reading and this is too important a subject to tolerate such degradation.

I will take some blame here for misunderstanding 411A's initial post about people coming to Thailand "for obvious reasons". (In my part of the world, I actually do occasionally have to tell people that not everyone going to Thailand is looking for sleazy sex.) In my response I was careful to ask if he meant the sex stuff. Apparently he did not. ("obvious" to 411A was not obvious to everyone.)

Regarding the important issues being covered in this thread. Is the trouble with Udom and Orient Thai/One-Two-Go? Is the problem with the DCA? Could it possibly be with the Thai people in general?

Here is what is publicly known:
There are very significant issues with Udom and any airline he might run. IMO, he should be banned from aviation worldwide. Most people reading this thread have seen the proof. Many of the people following this thread in Thailand deal with or have dealt with Udom on a regular basis. They have lived this reality.
There are very significant issues with the DCA and their failure to provide oversight of Thai-based aviation. At a minimum, cronyism prevents them from doing their jobs. Much more likely - and I have very credible allegations to the point - the DCA (particularly but not limited to Witichai) is corrupt.Since the DCA is unable or unwilling to do their jobs in overseeing Thai-based aviation, this causes Thai-based airlines to be only as safe as their management prefers them to be. I have proof (and am in the process of taking it public) of serious deficiencies at Phuket Air and Skystar. The issues are similar and, at Phuket Air, even worse than at Orient Thai. Because the DCA doesn't do it's job, travelers all over the world are unknowingly endangered.

[rolibkk]

Cambodia's Siem Reap Airways International and all carriers from Angola have been added to the European Commission's 'blacklist' of banned airlines.

Siem Reap Airways is owned by Bangkok Airways and operate A320.

So either the guys in Brussels are blind or something is definitely suspicious here ....

[Earl]

Thailand is a great place, people are friendly, you can walk the streets and feel safe , food is excellent etc.
Just a couple of these ACMI airlines leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to operations.
I did hear that the C/P resigned recently from the airline I was referring to and things should improve dramatically, unless they appoint another one like this.
Quite a few left because of this C/P due to his threats and intimidation forcing crews to fly like this or go home.
I really don't think the head managers at the time cared that they were losing all there crew, but think they know why now!
Maybe they can turn it around and be a good company.
Go to Thailand and enjoy.
But I will say if the Thai DCA was doing its job correctly this thread would not exist, lots of things they have let slip past them.
Serious issues!!

[InvestigateUdom]

One-Two-Go continues to fly regular Orient Thai routes Hong Kong to Bangkok. They've been flying this route since approximately Oct 11th. Too bad One-Two-Go has a suspended AOC.

See Witichai say they are still suspended (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/11/13/business/business_30088326.php). Or maybe he hasn't noticed OTG flying out of Bangkok?

[ZFT]

411A, ZFT, FrequentSLF, ChristySweet and everyone else following this thread:

We are all following this thread because we have concerns or interests related to Thai-based aviation. I suggest we stop the factually non-specific and ad hominem language of these past few posts, as they make the thread not worth reading and this is too important a subject to tolerate such degradation.I would suggest that both you and ChristySweet review your own posts before suggesting what I and others should post.

Stick to Udom and the like and I will have no need to respond. Carrying on trying to drag this country and/or the good operators down with wild, false or inaccurate statements will only illicit further responses from me which you will have to tolerate.

[InvestigateUdom]

I proudly stand behind everything I've written.
Have a good day.

[ZFT]

Confused - certainly not. I admire IU for what she is trying to achieve. Where Udom and his ilk are concerned, I fully support the objective.

My issue is and always has been the occasional drift against everything within Thailand. There are many good things here, many good aviation people.

Unfortunately, there is also the rubbish whom hopefully will get their just deserves.

[ZFT]

ZFT, are you sure.

Yes, positive. Her quest against Udom is without doubt justified.

[PanzerJohn]

As someone who spends a lot a time in Thailand and in the air there I fully support this thread and its aims. The thais attitudes to safety are not as ours. Spend time there and see the states of the buses with worn out tires and brakes, drivers falling asleep at the wheel due to lack of sleep or alcohol are common. Taxis can be downright dangerous. Part of this is , I think due to the fatalistic mai pen rai attitude of the thais, broadly speaking, **** happens. Health and safety just doesn't exist there, if you ever see a Thai constuction site you will weep.
The inate corruption present in state institutions from the Prime ministers office right down to the street cop after some tea money poisons most things and allows crooks like Udom to flourish. Thats the way things are and always have been, its going to take a long time for things to change, if they ever will. Still a great place though.

[ChristySweet]

Is Thai Air safe? Who knows?

I apologize if I set off a debate on Thai fatalistic culture that is totally inappropriate for this forum- but I'm adamant that Thailand is not a safe destination for air travelers.

It's not just 1-2 Go, it's also Phuket Air and SkyStar That we KNOW about. And these airlines are not safe because of Thai DCA ineptness, corruption and possible criminalty .
So ....Again,

Why hasn't Thai DCA completed one crash investigation in 3 separate incidents involving deaths?

Let me add...
If it weren't for InvestigateUdom, 1-2 Go would still be flying with all the unsafe practices still in place .
Already Thai aviation is somewhat safer because of her incredible efforts , BUT NOT YET SAFE ENOUGH.
So please, get on your knees and thank her.

[ChristySweet]

Brent Boerkamp, Netherlands
"My girlfriend and I didn't knew that flying in Thailand was so dangerous since we have horrible experienced it last year. So many people have lost their precious lives, and so many families have lost their loved ones. Can you sleep at night 'mister' Tantiprasongchai? I can't...
I thought that the FAA would be our safety guards and protecting us against mala fide airlines and aviation authorities but now I know they don't, they will only reward them. Is this the new standard?! Do you like to gamble and let your family fly in Thailand?! FAA, you have the power to stop this kind of criminal activities, why do you look the other way?!"

[tbavprof]

First off, let me say that Christy's original comment that sparked this debate was over the top. And I agree that, should she wish to start a consumer boycott of Thailand, she's certainly within her rights, and totally inappropriate for this forum.

As someone who rides a scooter in LoS everyday, anyone would have a hard time convincing me that transportation safety is Priority #1 around here. But again, this isn't the appropriate forum for these types of discussions.

What is legitimate IMO, is a discussion of endemic corruption, the structural components of the Thai aviation industry and regulating authorities, and their effects on the safety of air transportation here.

If you start at the lowest levels, there ARE plenty of people here in the industry and government who DO care about safety. IU wouldn't have been able to gather the documentation she has on out and out criminal behavior at 1-2-Go, and a preponderance of evidence suggesting complicity by DCAT, unless that was true... even at 1-2-Go.

Going up to the carrier level, I would agree that PG, TG, and SGA/Nok operate at a much higher standard of safety than others overseen by DCAT. However, I wouldn't overgeneralize that there aren't individuals in those organizations who place safety further down their priority list. And I especially wouldn't aver that DCAT or any of the aviation-related state enterprises are immune to pressure and influence from TG. The structure of the state enterprise system, the interrelations and transfers of personnel between industry and government regulators, and even practices such as DCAT Safety Inspection Officers being carried on the payrolls of industry participants invites questioning of the appearance of conflict of interest, at the very least.

At the CAA level, the whole country must be painted with a broad brush, no matter how unfair to individuals or individual operators.
Dear Garuda,

While it's true you've passed your IATA audit, we have concluded that the Indonesian CAA is still FUBAR. We regret to inform you that the ban on your airline operating in European airspace will continue indefinitely.

Should your local CAA ever meet our standards, we invite you to reapply for traffic rights.

Best Wishes,
EASA
*Fake letter to illustrate a point of discussion.And, based on what's been posted even in this thread, it's clear that the FAA (through its IASA program or interminable delays implementing NTSB recommendations) and EASA (as noted with the Siem Reap ban) are either totally incompetent, or themselves subject to influences that keep them from making Safety-First decisions. So it's not exclusive to Thailand. As actions by these two bodies are widely viewed by the traveling public as the sole indicators of air transportation safety reliability, especially when planning trips abroad, to question the information contained in their pronouncements seems legitimate.

Blue skies.

[FrequentSLF]

One-Two-Go continues to fly regular Orient Thai routes Hong Kong to Bangkok. They've been flying this route since approximately Oct 11th. Too bad One-Two-Go has a suspended AOC.

What about Hong Kong Authorities? Why are they allowing such flights?
Maybe an official letter of clarification to Hong Kong CAA (if that is the name).
I hardly believe that Hong Kong will let an airline without AOC on their airspace.

[tbavprof]

What about Hong Kong Authorities? Why are they allowing such flights?

Possibly because the flights are operating as OX, and they have a certified copy of the OX AOC (no details required) on board?

[FrequentSLF]

Possibly because the flights are operating as OX, and they have a certified copy of the OX AOC (no details required) on board?

I apologize for my ignorance, however I have to ask how is possible that an AOC is valid in one country and not in another one? Is clear that the EU is not recognizing the AOC issued by the Indonesian CAA, however here we are talking about OX using OG planes and crew. OG has not a valid AOC, therefore HKG should be aware of it.

[tbavprof]

Suspension of the OX AOC was lifted in September. And the HKK authorities would be well aware of suspended and revoked certificates.

The bottom line is that as long as the flights operate as OX under the OX AOC, they're 'approved', know matter what the paint job.

The part that hasn't been explained yet is, that part of the translated announcement lifting the OX AOC suspension included a bit about the MD's being specifically excluded from OX's operating authority...74's only.

Surely if that were true, the HKK CAA could be diligent enough to question the details (and not just the copy of the certificate) of the operating specs of a recently suspended operator. I'm sure there's probably a slight delay in getting the clarifying details from Bangkok, but no problem in the meantime.

[Joker's Wild]

As someone who is more than a little familiar with the Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department and their capabilities, I would caution against suggesting they could be "diligent enough to question the details" of any operator having had its AOC suspended. In fact, on many levels, the HK CAD and the Thai DCA are not so different, it's just that the HK CAD are better at hiding their ineptness.

Apologies for any thread drift.

[MACH.85]

Just spoke to someone in OX/OG ops. They have been advised that OG will resume domestic services on or about 03rd Dec 2008; that's in just under 3 weeks.
Seems the Thai DCA may have been "satisfied" with the corrective actions that OG were told to rectify.
OG or OX, same mob, but thats Thailand. Looking the other way.

[spk]

Yep. One-Two-Go bought a half page ad in Thairath (the most popular Thai newspaper) announcing the come back.

[InvestigateUdom]

spk: Are you able to provide an English translation of the ad's content?

[tbavprof]

Seems the Thai DCA may have been "satisfied" with the corrective actions...

Or a couple of months expenses-paid in Madrid as training "observers."

[ChristySweet]

I will demonstrate at Phuket Airport the day 1-2 Go resumes landing. Anyone with me? Do not be afraid.
Investigate, Indict, Convict and then Punish To The Full Extent Of The Law, Udom Tantisomprongchai (sic?) for 90 deaths of flight OG 269 on Sept 16, 2007. And demote Thai Land's inexplicable OK safety rating
Need talking points for paper to be handed at out at Demo..Can help, please IU?

PS: Good to be back. I was " Persona non Grata " for a nasty PM I sent . Sorry to have lowered the standard of discourse but the recipient..nevermind

[ChristySweet]

InvestigateUdom. Com inaccessible as of this morning Sunday November 23 Are you offline BR?

Can we shadow? I have 6 site available

[InvestigateUdom]

I'll post some suggested talking points. Thank you for asking.

[InvestigateUdom]

Talking points:
Orient Thai and One-Two-Go are unsafe.
Orient Thai and One-Two-Go do not follow international safety-standards.
Fly a safer airline. Don’t fly Orient Thai or One-Two-Go.Supporting evidence:
Orient Thai and One-Two-Go have inadequately trained pilots
Orient Thai and One-Two-Go have no culture of safety
Airline travel is supposed to be safe. See www.InvestigateUdom.com (http://www.pprune.org/www.InvestigateUdom.com) to learn more about the unsafe practices and systemic failures at Orient Thai and One-Two-Go.People with better marketing chops invited to improve these statements.

[InvestigateUdom]

I wrote a little blog posting on The Nation (http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/AviationSafety/2008/11/25/entry-1) regarding the failure to bring real change or safety to Orient Thai or One-Two-Go. If you share these concerns, please share the link.

The rumor I hear is that current group of MD-80 captains won't be pushed around. Apparently, it's the OX 747 pilots who are particularly scary right now....

[Pak Mike]

From my perspective as a regular passenger, the efforts here to expose all of this are highly commendable.

But a couple of points:

(1) Why do those in the know (pilots, engineers) wait for an accident before bringing out all of these issues. I'm not pointing the finger here, I have the highest respect for your profession, but shouldn't there be a mechanism to alert the flying public of issues before an accident happens.... or is it that we the flying public don't give a toss until lives are lost?

(2) How about Air Asia Thailand, is that an accident waiting to happen as they operate under the same rules/regulations and administering authority in Thailand? On top of that they must have incredibly slim profit margins, and I am amazed at their fast turn around times.

Again, my appreciation at the efforts being made here.... somebody has to do something!!!

[arcticfan]

And why is it that the E.U has banned all Indonesian carriers, and, Australia(for one) has decided to let them continue services to Australia ???

[InvestigateUdom]

Pak Mike:
A number of pilots did try to expose the truth before the accident. We have the letters they wrote and the evidence they used to corroborate the claims. Their letters were addressed to Udom, to the DCA and to ICAO. Nothing was done.

I spoke with the ICAO representative stationed in Bangkok, the rep said he simply forwards any letters he receives to Witichai at the DCA. He was so casual and uninterested, I asked if he actually read the letters! (He did not say yes.)

Here are the quick notes I took after the call (the evidence I refer to in this conversation is the proof of fraudulent checkrides from Dec 2007):
I'd been specifically told to speak with Mr. Graff. What a waste of time. After listening to him tell me safety wasn't what they do, nor do they assess the airlines or the facilities or the oversight, I finally said, "Forgive me for being rude but, what is it you do *do*?"

Apparently he provides support to Vittuchai, if Vittuchai asks for it. If I send him any of the information I have, he sends it on to Vittuchai. He's happy to do that, and offered several times. I told him that was unnecessary, as Vittuchai had already collected $$ from Orient Thai on the information. (He actually laughed.)

I asked what it is ICAO does to inform the travelling public. He said we were free to go to the ICAO website, hunt thru several menu to the flight safety network exchange info, search on Thailand, read the various reports, and then make an informed decision. He managed to say all of that without laughter.

It really is amazing civilization hasn't self-destructed yet.

[austhai]

Found this on a Thai job site.... scary stuff. No mention of safety in the statement. License Dispatcher - Thailand - JobsDB.com (http://th.jobsdb.com/TH/EN/Job.asp?R=JDBT080573412)
QUOTE:
Company Description



IF YOU'RE A HIGH-FLYER
.......Then we can offer you your dream job......



Orient Thai Airlines Co., Ltd


With our experience and expertise in airline business of more than 16 years, we always realize that our business operation is based on the idea “Be truthful to be a pride of Thai”. This is our primary goal and mission, which contains of the fair prices, indulgent services, opened mind and friendly as the true Thai way, always sincerely take care and responsive to customer’s needs. Moreover, we commit to improve our services on the basis of the fundamental of accuracy, appropriateness and fairness for benefits of our customers.

We are seeking for dynamic, competent, and new challenge candidates for the following positions

[ChristySweet]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/261108_
Business/26Nov2008_biz32.php

( gee, what colour shirt should I wear to distinguish myself from PAD or DAD or whatever protest group takes over the airport that day? )


BOONSONG KOSITCHOTETHANA
One-Two-Go Airlines is preparing to resume flights on Dec 5, after being grounded since July 22 for safety and operational deficiencies. Executives of the privately owned budget carrier, which suffered one of Thailand's worst air crashes, yesterday confirmed the re-launch and have begun accepting reservations.

The airline recently passed a series of rigorous audits by the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) of various aspects including safety, quality assurance systems and organisational structure.

The DCA suspended One-Two-Go after discovering substandard safety and management practices, and falsification of documents by some pilots who had misstated their proficiency.

The suspension coincided with a wave of litigation in US courts against the airline by relatives of victims of the Sept 16, 2007 Phuket crash. An MD-82 jetliner operated by the carrier crashed in strong winds and heavy rain after attempting to land at Phuket International Airport, leaving 89 dead and 41 injured.

One-Two-Go is re-starting its flights cautiously on a limited scale in order to gauge market reaction, given the image problems it has been facing.

It will initially offer seven daily flights between Bangkok and five major domestic cities _ Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Phuket, Hat Yai and Nakhon Si Thammarat. The flights will be operated by MD-80 series jetliners with 172 seats.The carrier has seven of these rear twin-jet aircraft in its fleet which can operate a lot more flights than what it currently has planned.

''We want to see how passengers react to our relaunch and to proceed from there,'' a senior One-Two-Go executive said.

The airline continues to maintain its ticket-sale terms, procedures and offerings as before its grounding about five months ago.

Its tickets are marketed at fixed prices inclusive of fuel surcharges and other extras, with prices dropping on a sliding scale depending on how advanced the bookings are.

For instance, a one-way ticket from Bangkok to Chiang Mai costs 1,950 baht if booked three days prior to departure, 1,650 baht if booked 14 days in advance, 1,350 baht for 30 days and 1,200 baht for 60 days.

[Pak Mike]

InvestigateUdom:

Pilots being the professionals they are, would have expected letters to Udom, the DCA and ICAO.

However the point I was making is getting this out to the traveling public BEFORE there is an accident, so at least we can make an informed decision on who to fly with.

Then I raise the question, are there any other operators in Thailand in the same boat, and accident waiting to happen, and raise the question regarding Thai Air Asia. How are they different from One-Two-Go?

[InvestigateUdom]

Regarding getting the word out before a crash: After the crash, there were a number of "aviation journalists" faulting the victims, saying passengers need to vet an airline for its safety. However, there was no information available (aside from a bit on pprune.). Even now, a traveler can only find the information on pprune, investigateudom.com. Thai media can not report on the situation. Getting the word out is difficult.

Regarding other Thai airlines: At this moment, there are 4 Orient Thai pilots were are unqualified for the 727-200 theys fly. DCA agents have been told. Orient Thai continues to endanger the public. We have similar proof of issues at Phuket Air and Skystar airways. The DCA provides no oversight. They take $$ in exchange for looking the other way. Therefore, any airline is only as safe as they choose to be. Or in the case of Orient Thai, Skystar and Phuket, only as safe as the captain of the aircraft at any moment in time.<-- CORRECTION: This should read 747-200!

Perhaps others on this thread will comment on Thai Asia Air, or you could ask on another thread. I would be intersted in the responses.

[Sharpie]

Gee investidateudom,

quote:

"At this moment, there are 4 Orient Thai pilots were are unqualified for the 727-200 theys fly. DCA agents have been told. Orient Thai continues to endanger the public. We have similar proof of issues at Phuket Air and Skystar airways."

You make it rather difficult for anyone to arrive at a qualified or rational decision based upon your quote without sufficient facts provided; I thought that Phuket Air and Skystar were quite reasonable and I hope to fly to Inchon next Sunday with SS. Give me more info and I'll go with another carrier.:hmm:




you make it

[stickyb]

Both One2Go and Orient Thai are featured on Wikipedia, along with some of your concerns. A lot of people look there for information. Why don;t you spend some time inputting to the Wiki Articles?

[PAXboy]

ChristySweetgee, what colour shirt should I wear to distinguish myself from PAD or DAD or whatever protest group takes over the airport that day?
Whatever you wear, I don't think that you will last long. The military are going to be on the watch for ANY kind of protest and will assume that it is political - which your protest would be!

You will have to consider your actions very carefully as getting arrested will simply mark you as 'another of the students' and, I strongly suspect not get your cause identified. A great pity.

[InvestigateUdom]

Its rather tough to prove someone doesn't have a qualification. The DCA was informed, and it was suggested they investigate. Of course, that has not been done.
If you are new to this thread, go to Thailand must investigate Udom Tantiprasongchai (http://www.investigateudom.com) click on the proof and evidence link (http://investigateudom.com/timeline.php). In this case, though I have no proof to show, I know it to be true. Someone asked and I answered.

stickyb: Thanks for the suggestion. We've actually updated wikipedia an number of times. Each time someone removes the changes. (At one point the editor of the articles was using the ID of Udom N. Tantiprasongchai. Another time it was someone from a aviation consulting firm in Bangkok.) Udom can pay someone to watch the articles and edit them immediately. Unfortunately, Wikipedia has a lot of trouble dealing with that sort of corruption of information.

[Thaihawk]

Correcting on of the above posts,One to Go or Orient Thai do not operate any Boeing 727-200s.

[InvestigateUdom]

Typeo. 747-200. Thank you for the correction.

[Earl]

I just wonder that with all these lawsuits going on if the people will collect anything at all.
I flew for a company in Thailand that was leasing a Tristar from a European owner.
We all left once we were cheated on the salaries.
It seems the leasing company took this operator to court for non payment on the lease in Thailand.
Thai courts ruled that he was trying and would not allow the said aircraft to be returned to the leasing company.
That airplane to this day remains on the Thai registry.
This was the issue for the Skyeyes Tristar freighter.
I am not against Thai people in any way, I do think that most of the companies there operate or at least try to correctly.
Just a handful of them need to be shut down.