Lear 45XR approach speed question

[Bruce Waddington]

All,

I have recently completed training on the Lear 45XR.

The Lear procedure is to fly the approach at Vref plus one half of any gust, but with no other airspeed increment. For example, in a steady state wind the approach speed would be Vref.

On previous equipment we, or the FMGC, always added an increment (minimum of 5 kts, max 20 kts) to Vref depending on the steady and/or gusting wind.

What are you other Lear pilots doing?

Thanks in advance,

Bruce Waddington

[Oluf]

Hi Bruce

Ref +10 is normal plus half the gust. No reason in my opinion to fly it ref, as it will bleed off the 10 kts quickly if you need it, and it gives you that nice little buffer if there is a shear or some bumps.

:ok:

O

[CL300]

I havent flown personnaly the 45XR, but I flew the 23,24, 35 and 31A;

With the old wing 10 to 20 kts were almost necessary in order to keep the wings and the nose where you wanted it; With the 31A and no more wingtanks, Vref was enough a speed to make it happen.

The industry as a whole retain the concept to add all the effective wind plus the full gust limited to 20 Kt, not only on Learjets but also on falcons etc..

Verf is Vref, and should never change, you BUG Vref according to your configuration this gives you your V2 in case of go around, and you fly Vapp = Vref+correction.

To add +10 is the old school, a time where the runways were always long enough, this is a mistake and should not be teached and better be banned from any sensible operation.

At Vref your aircraft is already 30% above your stall speed, and since this is the speed at which you should crass the threshold at 50ft, you are not going to bank at 30° at this point are you ?

Follow your company sops, and calculate the runway requirements when crossing at Vref+10 ( take the weight it is equivalent to and if JarOps 1.67 factor) can you still land in LFMD with 5/10 kt tailwind ?

common sense always prevail, but these aircraft were certified with one of the latest FAR25 regs... Train as you fly, and fly as you train, if not one or the other, one should change...

[Oluf]

CL300

I must disagree with respect to not adding to V ref.
The flightest standards for pilots doing their checkrides is speed on approach---V ref +5-10/-0kts, it is therefor natural to assume that this should be applied to real life situations, Whether the aircraft can fly below V ref is a completely different measure, of course it can.
I refer to my previous statement, keep Ref +5-10 as the 45 will actually bleed it off in seconds if you need it. The older Lears,20 and 30 series, had a completely different wing, and were a different measure I agree.
I Fly the 40/45 with ref +5-10 kts and it works, also for short runways. During steep app procedures( London City, Chambery, Innsbruck) the recommended speeds are Vref +5-8 kts, any slower and you sink drasticly, faster and you won't get down.
Stating that ref +10 should be banned from any sensible ops is quite a mouthfull, considering you've never flown the aircraft. The tollerance is Ref minus 0, and there is a reason for it. Study the stall speed impact of an aircraft, any aircraft, that encounters sudden unexpected turbulence or shear, and which then gets a 15-20 degree wing drop with assosiated loss of airspeed. There is no need to make it difficult, enhance safety smartly by using common sense.

O

[CL300]

The fact that a pilot is more comfortable with extra airspeed is not a new concept. However, VRef and Vapp are two different airspeeds. As long as you cross the threshold at VRef everything is fine...

Dassault AFM states that no correction should be made to Vref if no headwind or tail wind. If one or the other is encountered Vapp is VRef + 1/2 the headwind plus the full gust if any limited to 20Kt.

airbus has a concept of constant groundspeed in order to touchdown at the proper speed.

Everybody can have an opinion, certification rules, operations tries to cope with it;

In any case your landing distance was logged from idle thrust at 50ft VRef; anything else is bar discussion.

Operating GA with no buffer of anything, you better comfortable at Vref.
The 24 was not difficult at VRef it was keeping you on your toes, and at Vref you would better be trimmed in all axis and proper CG otherwise VERY touchy. the 31A was a breeze at VRef; The Falcon family are VERY EASY at Vref.

Regarding studying the Stall speeds :8 ; well I pass my comment , to be :suspect:

Again AFM dictates, Stabilized concept for TCH is Vref-5 / +30... depending on manufacturers. A shear of 30% of your Ref is not an unexpected event, you would had pictured it before ( heat /wind, etc..) and you would had corrected your Vapp accordingly.

What do you think of Excels in LCY with Special Ref of 1.2 VS ?

enjoy...

[Wingletnut]

Well, I've been flying 45's for too many years now and have always been taught in training and SOP's that Vapp is nothing other than Vref +10 on a 'normal' approach and then half the gust on top of that if required.

Wingletnut

[unablereqnavperf]

I too have been flying LJ45's for a few years now and always fly at V-APP which is generally 5 to 10 kts above v-ref and the airplane is a doddle to fly! The airplane has a lot of performance and will accelerate fairly quickly should you need to! LCY in a 45 is interesting but not difficult!

[Panther06]

Afternoon,

I manage a flight department with three aircraft, one of which is a Lear 31A. At some point we will upgrade to a larger aircraft. What is the range of the Lear 45 with IFR reserves?

thanks

[unablereqnavperf]

approx 1700 nm with JAR IFR reserves, ie. London Moscow just!