Another QR eathquake landing in JED?

[crashndash]

Did anyone feel the 8.5 landing in JED a few days ago?:ok:

[yada.yada.yada]

8.5??? That's like total destruction, isn't it? :ok:

[modeselectorignition]

8.5G? Must be kidding! With so much Gs, I doubt the aircraft is still in one piece.:ouch:

[salamalikum2]

sh..the Richter earthquake scale is going up to 9....!

[A300Man]

RTO in FRA same day. A7-AFM. A332.

[vaschandi]

That could be also the result of Flap 3 wannabe fuel saving landing!
May be it is only me, but I tend to flare late with Flaps 3.

[P.Clostermann]

You tend to flare late???

Than what about the 250hr second officer astronaut-wannabee who dug three holes in the RWY in JED??

Actually, its not the S/Os mistake I would say, but the mistake of this company allowing SOs to fly on the A330 without any proper training (we all know the college provides crap training and QR trng dept only caters for people with a certain level of experience)

They will never learn!

[vaschandi]

I am sorry for the SFO and CPT!
Might happen on all types.

[cleared to land]

does anyone have any mor details about this crash landing in JED. is the aircraft flying? what exactly happened?

[vaschandi]

Aircraft ferried back to Doha yesterday noon for further inspection.
(about 60h AOG in JED)

[P.Clostermann]

3000000 USD main gear replacement!

And this time Airbus will not cover it under because of so called corrosion!

MAybe from PA 34-220T to A330-200 is just a step too much for these fairly average cadet pilots!:ugh:

[vaschandi]

Unfortunately looks like more than only L/G replacement!

Don`t want to give you tec details about Load 15 report, but CC reinforced sports brassiere reached new g-limit record at QR!
Understand?!...

[P.Clostermann]

Thanks god those asian CC are a bit less favoured by nature on that part hahaha..
:mad:

I heard gear replacement....if more than it really must have been close to 8.5 G!

[Hikmah]

P.Clostermann, you're right, the responsibility lies with the airline.

QR do recruit SO's with some commercial experience also, but when it comes to allocating types they choose to put 200 hour guys on the A330 and put guys with commercial experience on the smaller type. It's immensely strange how it all works.

Regarding the hard landing, yes it can happen to anyone, but doesn't the Line-Trainer bear some responsibilty in this case too? I know perhaps it's easier said than done, but when you see an approach going wrong shouldn't they have taken control earlier?

[salamalikum2]

8.5 g hard landing..?:=
Let's be serious., it's not a landing anymore......!
The a/c should be under the runway in JED and not in DOH!:hmm:

[modeselectorignition]

Please do not blame it on Flaps 3. Been flying the Airbus (320/330-00,300) for 6 years and been landing on 3 or FULL (LHS/RHS), almost every other day subject to conditions and authority requirements eg BKK-minimum flaps setting as per manufacturer. Problem is pilots do not "practice" and be comfortable with 3. That is why when some pilots do land with 3 they cannot or unable to see the "picture" and have good judgement. Not every landing is the same. Even the Supp Tech for approach into W/Shear area (I do not mean flying into one!) recommends 3. What about Direct Law (A320) and single engine failure (A330)? We land on 3. So what is the fuss all about. You do not practice then you would not have the confidence or skill level to do it properly, safely and understand its behaviour. Also do not pinpoint it to the PNF for not taking over etc etc. It is quite difficult to do so, really. Even with Boeing or any aircraft with the control column/yoke, one cannot really judge whether it is going to be a firm or HARD landing. Let us learn and be more aware as well as review any procedures or recommendations by aircraft manufacturers to avoid or minimise HARD landings. Be a professional, land with 3 or FULL is correct and legal as well as SAFE. Same goes for Boeing, eg B737 F30 or F40 (if I remember correctly, many years back!). Safe flight, always!:ok:

[Ronaldo 330]

Who decided to put 2nd Officers to A330 ?
Answer is : R.H ex Ct A330

He and and his best mate who is now in EY should be investigated.

[vaschandi]

Thought he is flying in Costa Rica!
YouTube - Southern Air (747) in Costa Rica (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxfAHDrihDU)

[CEO PITA]

Guess when we land F 3 its easy to hit the tail with A330-300 or A321 so you have less pitch tolerance to pull during landing .
If you land with full flaps there is almost no chance to hit the tail and people are able to pull it in case of sink during ldg.
If i have choice between hard landing and tail strike i prefere hard landing. Its only warning letter or demotion but tail strike is TERMINATION with a confirm seat ticket .

[JungleJett]

Sorry PITA but you are wrong concerning the 321.
The pitch change between flaps full or flaps 3 is negligeable on the 321 contrary to what most people think.
It's more critical on the 320. Hence most tail strikes due to Config 3 happen on the 320 or 319.

[john321]

all this is none sense talk.

an incident can happen to anyone at any time. there is abstouley nothing wrong when a commerical pilot operates an A330. in fact every country in this world lets it own citizens operate jet aircraft with CPL license. for Example, Emirates Airline hires Emarati citizens direct on B777. easy jet in UK hires direct on A320. My point is foreigners should thank god that Qatar Airways is giving them the opportunity to operate the A330 with no discrimination against foreign low time pilots like other airlines that discrminates against foregners in this region.


John

[oryxbollocks]

Oh dear, pita bread is at it again! Major operators around the world have been landing 330's and 340's flap 3 for years with no problems. And where did the words tail strike come into this discussion?
This landing was carried out by the SO in less than optimum conditions and should not have done so. Pre-empting the investigation, I would suggest it had nothing whatsoever to do with the flap configuration. It was the direct responsibility of the trainer and it should remain as that! An SO does not have the experience to land in a dust storm and the trainer should be able to recognize a rapid sink rate near the ground before it develops into a crash landing.
If an aircraft of any sort landed at 8.5g there would be a smoking hole. Our friend who started the post was referring to the richter scale as was obvious by the tongue-in-cheek title.
The word around the office is that it was about 2.8g and why would Airbus be responsible for replacing the gear? You crash 'em; you fix 'em.
GB

[chainsaw]

...in fact every country in this world lets it own citizens operate jet aircraft with CPL license.

Nice attempt at the old 'If you cannot convince them, confuse them' trick john 321, but your assertion is cr@p!

[SIUYA]

oryxbollocks....

The alleged 2.8'g' impact probably resulted in more than the MLG needing to be replaced, and I would be really surprised if there was not additional damage! :eek:

And if the damage is as reported then this is definitely an accident in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 definitions. :ugh:

Recent reports on PPRuNe suggest that this isn't an isolated heavy landing incident event in the day-to-day operations of Qatar Airways. :eek::eek:

I wonder if the Qatar CAA will investigate the accident and publish any safety recommendations to prevent similar accidents happening? :confused:

[namngm]

Dont fully agree with 321, however there are various airlines out there

that do infact recruit and implement S/O programs as well as maintain

training standards succesfully

1 emirates airlines (wide body only)
2 British Airways
3 Cathy pacific (wide body only)
4 ryan air
5 my travel
6 easy jet (largest program)
7 Qatari airlines
8 condor
9 Thomas cook
10 Wizz air
11 Lufthansa
12 Gulf air
13 Air arabia
14 Tiger airways etc...etc.. not to mention growing asian markets


Am not too sure of the circumstances involved in the incident who was

right or wrong or conditions but to clarify that programs do exist around in

aviation, which work.


It's upto training dept and traininee to do their respective parts but as

far as what aircraft one should be operating well that is something im

guessing mangement decides on based on requirements. Not everyone

may agree but in todays world aviation is dynamic and growing at alarming

rate so next time you board a 747 in cathy or 320 in europe be aware that your captain on board or perhaps the first officer could very well have been one of the few people who were one day in the past a second officer.

Focus on the issue at hand get the facts straight, stop the assumptions := and try to learn what not to do. Fly safe

[Safari Goat]

At 2.8g on a landing that should mean the rate of desent was 1000 ++. If you are going to be in the training department then you should recognize this was going to be a hard one and taken over the landing.

A huge % should be blamed on the training captain and training. Letting a S/O land in a sand storm with probably only a few landings under his belt you should be on full alert, if you even let him land. So the training capt is at great fault here. Just being a training capt, you should always be on full alert always.

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Hold your horses please gentlemen!

The facts:

Airplane landed with 2.8G as stated above. SO was flying in standard JED conditions ( windy and dusty, but all well within the limits of the QR OM).
SO performed rather well until very low level, he is known to be one of the better ones. Aircraft sank at the last moment (below 100ft) and the CAPT did give the necessary inputs (Full aft stick at 50 feet if I am correct)
Airplane was an A330-300. At this height this was all what could have been done!

Was it a downdraft? Windshear? Low level turbulence? Only time will tell but dont be too fast shooting down fellow aviators please!
It remains a fact that when you do intensive training on these machines, things like this WILL happen! No matter the caliber of the trainer!


Regarding the training of SOs on medium to heavy jets.

IF YOU DONT KNOW THE FACTS, PLEASE DO NO NOT SPREAD RUBBISH AROUND!

Sure,many other airlines have training programs around whereby 250hr FOs with a CPL/ME-IFR are being trained on these jets.

But all of the airlines who do these kind of training programs provide a lot of extra training to these people!.
Additional MCC training on the type where you will be flying on, Jetconversion courses of more than 40Hrs sim, additional FFS sessions.....
Most of them have even adapted the whole training program before, from 0 hours on the C152 all the way to the twin, to implement the actual SOPs and procedures from day number 1
In Singapore and Cathay, the cadets actually learn to fly a Learjet before they even start their training on the A330!


So please, do not compare these programs to the pathetic preparation Qatar Airways is giving its cadet pilots!

They start in the QAC, flying PA28s around over DOHA and Qatar. The whole program has not been adapted at all to an airline enveronment! They only can practice IFR flying at OTBD airport and in their FRASCA trainer.

Once in a while they go on a field trip to OBBI or OMDB.

No MCC flying, no briefings, nothing!

They dont even bother to teach them discipline and professionalism. May I remind you, this is a government sponsored program and the cadets are guaranteed a job at Qatar Airways. There is no time limit on their training, nor is there any financial limit. Its just a matter of providing them training until they scrape through the checks, even if this means flying a PA28 for 500hrs before you can do a descent steep turn!

I am sure most people who have done similar training programs in the past, know that it is exactly the time limitation (most programs you have 12 months to pass your ATPL theory, followed by exactly 6 months to go from solo to ME-IFR) which ensures the airline of a good standard ofquality due to the natural selection which happens here! Add to this the pressure of having to pay back this training even if you dont pass and you ahve a formula that works!

Over here we are just dealing with a bunch of spoiled little children who did not know what to do with their lives so they decided to become a hotshot airline pilot on the expense of the state of Qatar! After all it beats driving your landcruiser around 7/7 , doesnt it? (My apologies to the college guys who are the exception to the rule and who actually well and truly want to become a pilot, unfortunately they are not that many)

They call it Qatarisation!

After that they join Qatar Airways where they are pushed through the same conversion course as all other pilots with experience who join QR. This means a 30 days crash course from zero to hero on an A330 or A320!

There even is NO special FTD or FFS syllabus for these pilots! No Jetconversion...NOTHING! Just squeeze them through the system and pray they survive at the other end(FFS has been changed now I believe, not sure)

Then they come on line. 120 sectors line training on an A330!

This so far has been the only fase which has been adapted for SO training but lets face it, by this stage the damage is done!

And in any case, on the QR A330 fleet you fly an average of 10 sector/month. So no continuity in training, never they fly with the same instructor and it takes them FOR EVER to get anywhere...there goes the motivation together with a roller-coaster-like learning curve!

This whole SO program on A330 was ill thoughtover, ill-prepared and an incident waiting to happen! Training department and managment where well informed beforehand, but once again they thought the established carriers where wrong and they would show them how to do it the right way!

CONGRATULATIONS!:ugh::mad::ugh:

[togaluck]

This happens, because the company is putting people with NO experience on a A330, i said it before and i say it again, they (SO's) should go into the A320 first and promote the A320 guys into the A330 HELLO!! retention!! most guys on 320 are hurting to go on a bigger a/c, why do you think there are so many resignations? but fcking stupid management decides the opposite...

well done goat hearders.... we told you so.

[A300Man]

Which specific aircraft was involved?

[Black Stain]

foreigners should thank god that Qatar Airways is giving them the opportunity to operate the A330

Alakem Salam John321. What a funny little man you are.

SQN LDR Dear Sir, The Goat is protected by God himself! Training is wasting money better spent on a ship, a villa or another woman.

The Goat has never crashed, allahu akbar....

[togaluck]

gcc locals should thank god foreigners are here to teach them how to fly aircraft like the A330, they would not have a chance in a real airline

[_FL600_]

Hey Toga,

Go back to your rotten egg-shell! You might find your luck in there :yuk:

Talk about personalities. You are just giving the local's another excuse to hate us more (expat's). Good thing we don't fly for the same airline :=

[P.Clostermann]

The aircraft is an A330-300 as said before

A7-AEE

[Londonlads]

Ceo pita has no idea at all.

[CEO PITA]

There is more A319 and A320 on market then A321 .
A 330-300 if you doing F3 landing youre pitch is about 4-6 and if you pull full stick at 50 ft what can happen ?? nothing ? so why we have to call pitch at 7,5 and why so many memos about tail strike ?
A321 during F3 landing pitch is 5-6 .

Ok its INST fault and demote him and do same for all on A330 fleet which had hard landings in KTM and during landings with trainee and you can close training department becouse there will be 3-4 inst left .
FRA,KTM,JED,DEL,JNB,DOH,LHR,LGW all hard landings and more and more on A330 .
Blame it on INST do not blame training department which decided that transition from PA28 to A330 is ok . PA-28 landing with 72KTS and staring fleare at 2 ft while on A330 you land with 146 kts and fleare at 30-40 ft .
Yes airlines like Emirates do it becouse no other fleet than w/b.

[sayap-patah]

correct information from ATLANTIQUE.....I've train some of cadet who graduated from Qatar Aeronautical College about 2 years back...and the their mentality is...:ugh: ( the nice word is..just a bunch of spoiled boys whose tired crashing their land cruiser or nisaan patrol )...sorry..but thats the reality..

[knotaloud]

Went and asked one of the safety guys. We have had 5 hard landings in 3 years. He didn't know whether this was statistically ok or not as airlines accept this as part of the business of operating. There was no hard landing in KTM. CEO you should know that responsible pilots will report a 'suspected' hard landing which is what the KTM one was.
Reference Cathay, I asked one of the guys we have here about their SO scheme. They do have ex SO's now checked out in command. However, they do not allow their SO's to fly until they have checked out in the rhs. This takes around 2 years.
The Sqdr Ldr and Safari Goat appear to be right on the money so read what they have to say again! (Should be a 'q' not a 'g' right de L'Antique?) Except that apparently the aircraft did not 'sink at the last moment'. It flew into the ground as you would expect from a low-time pilot flying in those conditions.
Amazing what you can discover just by asking around rather than foaming off at the mouth like some!
And thanks, John321, for letting me fly your BIG planes! Wow. And there I was thinking I was working for QR 'cause they needed me? Silly me.

[CEO PITA]

O sorry JNB was not hard landing it was a bit more than that .
SO with 400 landings in 6 y will become Capt and fly oure kids to this funny destinations on A320 ?? Not mine mate . Am sending them with Ekor EY .

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Nope...

Sgnr = Seigneur

Heard that this time QR will not be organizing a witch hunt to look for a culprit! The training Capt will be fine and rightly so!
:D

[airbanana]

I must 100 percent agree with sr l atlantique, and I will add the bad ATTITUDE among SO in QR. Usually they arrive after the Instructor for Briefing, etc etc.
The SO program on 330 must be cancel NOW, hey ,training mng guys OPEN YOUR EYES, what are you waiting for.
A good tip to my fellows colleges, before letting your family in a Qr flight check if a SO:ugh: is operating.
Must sound wrong and ofensive, but believe me, I will do it.
Cheers

[Mister Geezer]

Sgnr de L'Atlantique

With 10 sectors per month on the A330 and 120 sectors to bash in... that means that the line training for a cadet takes roughly a year to complete?? :ooh:

[Hajj Man]

Maybe I am just in a different frame of mind these days and not concentrating very much but this thread seems to be getting confused to me.

My opinion is that a training captain is TRAINED to handle situations like this and if he/she cannot see a potentially dangerous situation going to unfold and take control of the aircraft then it is he/she to blame.

It is also part of the blame of the way the training department are just not monitoring who is a training position and checking them or giving them any other continuous ongoing training to keep them up to speed, new ideas and/or the changes in the pilots who are to be trained and how to handle these second officers/low time pilots. Yes, sure you use to be a training captain 10 years ago in your country but that was when people had to have some qualifications and experience to get hired into the right seat. Things have changed and so should the structure of how to train or have these pilots introduced into the right seat. I don't know how to do it but I am sure seminars and other airline consultants can give some advice.

I am sorry to say but our chief pilot of training needs to come up with some new plans and ideas that will work. So far since he has been here the training has taken a few steps backwards with some of these changes.


HM:ok:

[Lulu qatar]

C.T in QR comes from airline with 5 airplanes and he never flown w/b before . What do you think he will come with ?

[Qatari515]

H.M.

I do not if you have ever been in training or not, but one thing is sure, If you would have any experience you must have come across similar situation before! The only reason why you would be able to say " It did not happen to me" would be pure luck!


I agree with you. QRis totally wrong by appointing instructors based on seniority and it is even more wrong to not have any QA/QC system in place whereby instructors themselves are being checked on a regular bases!
Once an instructor in QR (LTC/GI?TRI/TRE/...) you are virtually untouchable! Until something happens that is!

Once more, this system puts all responsibility with the CPT.

And I can assure you, the trainer on this particular flight is a professional pilot, a good aviator and an outstanding instructor! I am sure if you would propose him to be checked every year he would applaud any decision made in that direction.

The atlantique man is right...The system itself is rotten through and through and things like this where bound to happen in any case!

[CEO PITA]

Hey hey man outstanding instructor just made QR ground A330 for 20 days and replace a landing gear worth more then 3 m $ .
Nothing could be done in that case ?? What about flaps full and add 5 kts ? If he pull full aft with 5 kts more maybe he would have energy to reduce impact .
Yea what he could do as well he shouldnt give S/O fly to JED whan he has 4500 m RWY in Doha for S/O to play with landing.
CLC hard landing with ADK .

Inst selection by seniority ? Yea why not ? You want new guy in QR to become INst and he has not flown area or type.
In QR everyone can be instructor as long as he drinks with right people .
You can even become CT A330 on same basic ( R.H)

[Lulu qatar]

Outstanding instructor .
Well i know the guy and he is USA/AUS .
He went from USA to AUS during that time when Anset was having problems .
He took someones job down there and thats why he is only AUS left in Airline since all other got job with Emirates and Dragon Air .no choice he is on Australian union pilots black list ( means you cant get job in Cathay ,Dragon,Emirtes ..... )
He seams nice and he performes good as commander but outstanding not sure .

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

He took someones job down there and thats why he is only AUS left in Airline since all other got job with Emirates and Dragon Air .no choice he is on Australian union pilots black list ( means you cant get job in Cathay ,Dragon,Emirtes ..... )

Sorry Habib, that is a load of rubbish! No union last time i checked in the UAE.

SyB :zzz:

[P.Clostermann]

Adding 5 kts CEO man.....If you think things like that save the day...FORGET IT!

I totally agree with the flight safety office that this a BIG NONO. Its an outdated practice going back to the dark ages of the 707 and should not be done on modern jetliners!
Dont you think airbus would have come up with procedures like this in case they thought it was necessary?

FLAPS FULL.....man, you must be an even bigger moron than we all think! What does airbus say as recommended procedure in gusty conditions and windshear??? Exactly...use FLAPS 3!

FLAPS 3 TO FLAPS FULL IS A DRAG FLAP SETTING MY FRIEND. It reduces the energy level of your aircraft and hence it might reduce your landing distance required. It lowers your body angle as well.
But it is not the setting to be used in situations where you need all the energy possible, such as this one!

If a new guy joins QR with 2o years instruction behind his teeth and he can prove to be worthy of his name and fame, by all means he should be made instructor instantly!
Instructing is not a given right, it is a privilege. And most pilots are not fit at all for instructing! They might be good operators but they lack the people knowledge to transfer that information! Just like these wanabees in QR who see being instructor as a given right or a promotion!

Thats exactly why the jordanian with small man syndrome and tiny glasses just got his ass kicked out of training. The moment he became TRE he started abusing his powers because he thought he became invincible!

So YES: use the experience of possible new joiners over seniority! And by the way, this will take care of all the drinking/shisha smoking deals that are being made outside of the system at the same time!

And boys, can we lay that Ansett thing to rest please? Its been almost 20 years now!
I find it VERY VERY low of you LULU, to bring up these matters here, as well as virtually disclosing the guy's identity on this forum! It is disgusting! Exactly how many AUS/USA trainers you think we have here uh?:=

I will recommend your post to be deleted by the mods...the S*** word is forbidden on these forums!:mad:

[4HolerPoler]

Keep it nice guys - great debate over a hot topic - no changes or moderation required at this stage but remember the rules.

4HP

[CEO PITA]

Dont be upset . Airbus will change procedures as thay do every day.
A.A.S and N.M are soon back in training .
There where 2 morons ( R.H and I.M ) which try to make fun of training department and one is kicked out and the other has better passport so he will last longer but not too long . Smart projects where S/O on A330 and TRE A330 to do CCQ TRE A320 which coused many TRE want to resign or done so . Now its time for them to come back.

If in QA out of 800 pilots you cant find Inst by senority its sad fact !

About F3 or Full landing adding 5 kts or more . Who care what airbus recommend when airbus them self change procedures every day ( EOACC ALT ,FUEL LEAK ,E.D....)
Airbus can recommend what thay want but youre ass is inside of that box. As well as safety office ( office)
We been recommended to land F3 and take minimum fuel and take off on +45C with pack off . Guess how many Capt want to do it online from my experiance on 330 about 20 % most of them want to get some position or brain function stop at last page of SOP or they are doing training flights so they have to do it others just lough and dont follow it .

[CEO PITA]

Closterman is really smart when he thinks that F3 reduces LDR ! Am sure he is QA TRE ex management or so . ( spending time in office under a/c can damage brain cells )

[Tintin]

P.Clostermann WOW I tought that guys with common sense like you where all gone.

Nice to have you around

[knotaloud]

Watch it lads. If you disagree with ceo he will say you must be management. It's his idea of a put down. And he knows how to operate the 330 so cannot be argued with.
Closters, I don't think Lulu mentioned the 'word'? Unless his post was modified? Just stating facts like you do.

[BOB 323]

we all know that airbus recommends flaps 3 if wind shear is reported,suspected or in forcast but flaps 3 is not the solution for preventing a hard landing. if a micro burst is in the vicinity airbus recommends to increase the speed to encounter the possible down draft during flare. Dont forget that using flap 3 for landing might make matter worst as flare technique is not same and we dont practice it every day.doing a flap3 landing is not a big deal for some one with bit of experience but I would think twice to let a second officer do a flap3 landing in Gusty conditions. Finally He will not be the last person with the hard landing, Next time it could be me or you who knows.

[Lulu qatar]

Am not like you P Closterman i didnt mention name as you did in youre smart post about somebody. So before you start bull... think !

[Tintin]

This place is a nursery...Lulu and Pita you are making a show here, you should charge for the people to have the leisure to read you...

[PIPE RIDER]

Flaps, Vapp +kts......nonsense discussion you should read Sgnr dl altantique (sorry for my french spelling) he is right on the money.

Airlines that have S/O training on a widebody (and pls don't quote EK they are the same joke with more tall buildings), provide an abnitio REAL training including some turboprop building experience, the difference that 500 hrs can do on a young pilot is amazing, believe it or not even coming from a light twin.

Fly by wire a/c all you can do at 50 feet if your energy level is low is pray and see how severe is the bounce either to go around or maintain your pitch attitude........Is easy for PITA (new guy CP wanabe) to criticize other pilots but be careful the bigger the mouth the more it takes to fill it up my friend..

Cheers

[THR MCT]

couldn't more agree with you pipe rider nice post,
let me add airbus recommend flaps 3 landing in windshear or gusty conditions neither forA/C energy at flare height 50 ft nor hard landing avoidance but mainly for your performance during the Goaround you are supposed to have performed if you do have conditions that triggered reactive windshear on the PFD, so your performance for the "approach climb segment" where the A/C is in better shape to trade cinetic energy for altitude gain which so called the windshear guidance witch ends for most A/c at 1500ft.
by the way I'm not a TRE, not in the Office as well.
remenber guys fly high ,fast and always be safe.
Thr Mct:ok:

[9.G]

negligible correction if I may. Probably it's a matter of ACTUAL landing distance and not required firstly. Secondly F3 offers better controllability provided speed increment is applied.

[Qatari515]

I think that is what Closterman wanted to say anyway, no?

F3 should not be used to prevent hard landings but he just said that F3 gives you a higher energy level to possibly recover better from a bounce-to-be!

I am not in favour of stating names here but in case a real di*% is mentioned, I do not mind. And with that I mean the second one mentioned! He should not even be on a left seat!

[P.Clostermann]

Hi Lulu,


I took your advise and used your tactics. Do you like it?

And no, he wont be re-instated anytime soon, believe you-me!

[Hajj Man]

I am sorry but I am from the old school and the "WORD" as you put it should not be forgotten and put to rest because it was 20 years ago.

Someone comes and takes your job is a S#@% and there are a few other words to descride this sort of person but I will just leave it like that.

the word KARMA comes to mind as well....... "Through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others."

Oh-mani-pendi-ummmm....


It's late, Good night.

HM:ok:

[Black Stain]

A hard landing could happen to any instructor. I noticed that those who taught me always had sweaty armpits. And Goat instructors are especially exposed for the valid reasons dear SQN LDR listed.

If The Goat insists on recruiting abinitio pilots with questionable motivation perhaps the airline should buy a small fleet of ATR42 that the Second Officers could flog to death all day to BAH and DMM. I imagine gear replacement on the ATR is less than the A330?? Impossible to elliminate events like this, just control the damage.

Leave the instructor alone, this is a case of bad eggs rather a sloppy cook.

[Black Stain]

What nasty words Hajj Mann?? Confusing words too. If you are still upset over a pilots dispute 19 years ago then you must be really pissed off that The Goat policy of recruiting DEC has slowed your own command when you were ready for the job long ago?

Mate those that still turn red thinking about that dispute do so because they are angry with themselves. Get over it :ugh:

[Two Dogs....]

lost their jobs

They lost their jobs because they resigned, all committed mass career suicide together. That's actually quite funny when you think about it Croc. How stupid are pilots... Oppps, sorry, is that still a bit sore? :{ Anyway, back on track, that Captain, if it's him, is one of the most experienced, knowledgable and sensible pilots I have ever flown with. An all round good guy. Very lame Croc to bring up rubbish like the dispute over a hard landing in Saudia.

[knotaloud]

Forget what he was/is and get back to the point(s)!
SO's should not be flying and certainly should not be flying widebodies!
And for all this trainer's purported experience, he erred big-time in having the SO land in those conditions and then by not monitoring the rate of descent as the SO flew into the ground.

[P.Clostermann]

Maybe it is time to stop being hypocrites...

Most of us knowing about the Ansett story have a certain age:cool: and came to the middle east as DEC. In a way that is not that much different than what the S#$% did 19 years ago, isn't it!
We took the place of a certain FO as well, who was waiting for his command. We jumped ahead of many guys who where waiting to join the wide-body fleets.

Did we know it? YES

Did we care? NO!

Ok, its was not as blatant as with Ansett, but I feel in a way we did the same.
Expat pilots are mercenaries. We go and fly for the people who pay us the best money, we go there strictly for our own benefits and most of us do not give a damn about the others in that company as long as we get what we want!

This is exactly why you will never have the same respect from management as an expat pilot than when you are a pilot at your own airline!
Besides that,The whole union thing is very nice on paper but not in real life, and going on collective strike never has led to a positive outcome. Look at Ansett, Sabena, Swissair....etc.

Those lists....I find them very childish! Incredibly childish actually! The first time I laid eyes on them I was flabbergasted! Who are the pathetic and frustrated souls who came up with that idea? So you guys are blaming the QR management for organizing witch hunts but actually you have been doing the same for 19 years long!

GET OVER IT!:mad:

Anyway, most of you who moan about it actually should be grateful. You went to CX and ended up on the A scale, flew for another 15 years as a skipper on the best machines making loads of money, lived in Hong Kong during the real estate boom buying apartments on the company' s expenses, retired with a FORTUNE and are now here in the sandpit as old farts, once more making good money while actually occupying the places on a left seat of a younger pilot!

I dont care , believe me, you all where damn lucky...But do not point the finger at others for things you brought on to yourself in the first place!:ugh:

[Safari Goat]

Back to the point, The second officer program has some kinks that need working out and as Black Stain said an ATR72 would be a great idea going to Bahrain and Dammam.

[P.Clostermann]

MMMMmmmmmmm....

Dont agree with that one mate!

19 years later and still a very sensitive subject it looks like!

I just wanted to avoid that an instructor, who actually does a great job over here (you have to admit we need more instructors like him over here in stead of these power-horny macho freaks we have now), takes more heat than he should just because he made a mistake 19 years ago!

Some of the posters here where affected by the Ansett thing in person, and it seems to me they where looking to use this unfortunate thing to get what they wanted!

That is not the way things should be done, thats all!

[CEO PITA]

If an outstanding instructor did a great job spending 3,6 m $ imagine what an avrige Inst can do to us ?
No salary increamnet becouse litle man has to buy a new landing gear for A330-300 !

[Safari Goat]

ok. I will drop it also. As you said he might do a good job as an instructor (I don't know I have never had instruction with him)

It is a shame that this happened to ANYONE and that is never what I would like to have happen to anyone. SCAB or no SCAB it is a bad thing to happen to him, the SO and the Airline. We will all pay for it in the long run with new rules. We actually need some to tell you the truth.

[P.Clostermann]

Sounds good to me...:ok:

Pita man, just you wit until the day where maybe you become an instructor!

Or NO, even better, just wait until you will be given a left seat on a commercial jetliner. I am 100% sure you will talk differently!

And if you dont, it just shows that you should not be in this profession mate!

Some of your factual info is correct, I have to admit to that, but boy you have a lot to learn still regarding being a pilot!

No shame in that, you just have to realise it!:ok:

[Black Stain]

Good men cannot be held down, call it Karma if you like Hajj Man. Instructor exonerated, back to do more professional work :)

[Hajj Man]

??

HM:ok:

[DesertIsland]

Any news if the second officer program will have some set backs now?

[FlyingCroc]

No DEC is taking the job away of a pilot in the sandpit sice the management is free to hire whoever they want. There are no unions here to protect the pilots that's why there is so much whinging here in the sandpit forum like no other. If IFALPA decides Industrial action, a so called hiring ban than it is not very smart to apply to such an outfit. And yes your name WILL be on that list forever. And yes maybe in the next airline you apply a captain in the selection team or a checkairman will remember you. It is your decision. Again there never was a hiring ban on any middle eastern airline.

And back to the hard landing issue. Lets not spread rumors since we do not the facts why this happened, it could happen to any of us tomorrow. But I think also that it is a bad idea to train SOs in the A330.

[vivace]

What a load of bitter dredging up from the past,forget it you sad has beens and get on with your lives. Back to topic, hot and heavy conditions and a brand new pilot on a widebody can result in what I hear to have happened. The instructor in question is by far above average, an extremely proffesional aviator and a bonus to anyone who is taught by him. If it can happen to him it could happen to anyone. Unfortunately at QR the trainers are pushing the envelope as there are not many if any places that put the new guys straight onto the 330. I was checker at another airline down the road from QR and almost had a similar result in the same airfield.

[FlyingCroc]

It is not about flying capabilities we were discussing, it is about character.
And as allready said before, I don't doubt that he is an outstanding pilot. However they push the envelope by putting a young kid from a bad college course in a A330 with 300 Pax. This should be a warning shot to rethink policies to avoid a real tragedy.

[chainsaw]

Lets not spread rumors....:confused::confused:

Why not FlyingCroc? It IS after all a RUMOUR Network, isn't it? :}

[Qatari515]

It has been said before and I will say it again!

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like a big boy!

QR might think they are one of the leading airlines in the world, but they are a far cry away from being one. This incident and the way it was handled just shows it!

All the responsible people being aware of a big emerging problem but because some influential people being involvd, nobody dares to open his mouth!
I know RH was working on this as he must have realised something needed to be done. But Iam afraid by then it was too late!

It is sad to see....all the posibilities in the world but no real willingness to create something substantial and quality orientated. But I guess that can be said for the whole country!
:sad::ugh::(:sad:

[FlyingCroc]

is only for a limited time. All of us working here know it. Make some money and move on back to the real life out there. Life is way too short to live in this hot dustbowl.
The main point is that the operation stays safe, for us as pilots and our families travelling.

[Ken Hoy]

Having had my attention drawn to this discussion, it would seem to me that QR's own Croix de Guerre winner is the one with the "Get Over It" syndrome?

How I got into this discussion is beyond me? Whereas my thoughts on scabs are well known, they are spoken out loud and not under a pseudonym on an anonymous forum such as this or any other for that matter. And in any case, isn't this thread about a hard landing?

PC, your egregious attempt to cover up the direct attack on me by using the plural is pathetic. Particularly because some of the stuff you've penned that I have read in this thread seems quite reasoned and sane? Everyone here knows that there is only one ex AN, ex CX, DEC here who came and stole an FO's job and remains an old fart here.

With that in mind, it appears to me that you have a particular beef with me? In which case I suggest you dredge up some of that courage that won you France's highest and confront me personally.

KH

[CEO PITA]

In QR you can not stole F/Os job its becouse F/Os want to become capt. and cant perform up to P1 standards and fail on SIM or final check .
In the airline which ordered over 120 aircrafts there is space for everyone (DEC.F/Os,S/O,NTR,old fatrs,young farts there is space for outstanding and less outstanding instructors) but in Anset that time i guess it was different story .

[Lulu qatar]

K.H nice to have someone striaght fwd on this forum .
You might be old but you have bo...s !
P.Closterman is a girl or he drive a maroon Cayenne.

Scab is a Scab ( it look like scab it smell like scab and its a scab )

Hard landing in JED :
i know you shouldnt disclose any data becouse of yore position in office but we can aske youre opinion as Capt not as safety pilot right ?
Was it a Inst failure to let S/O fly on VIS 2000 m and by the end failure to take over on time and prevent hard landing ?
Since you flown 747,340,330 ...... for years am sure you wil give is objective answer regadless scab or not scab was on left seat that day .
Thnx

[EGGW]

This thread has run its course, and is straying into irrelevant subjects.

Please start another on the Original subject matter.

Thread closed

EGGW