QF LH EBA 8 Has been signed off!!

[Best Speed]

Signed sealed and delivered...

Just Wait for the details......:ok:

:D

[kiwi engineer12]

Really? can anyone confirm this?

[Capt Kremin]

None of the LH guys have have seen it yet so how can it be signed sealed and delivered?

Still a vote to go as well. This is just a little premature don't you think?

[Transition Layer]

None of the LH guys have have seen it yet so how can it be signed sealed and delivered?

Not quite true...there is a leaked copy getting around and personally I'm not that impressed!

[QFinsider]

It is worth noting that the EBA has been drawn up by a protaganist unlikely to have to live with the "unknowns" for the next 30 years. When one views it with this in mind, the benefits acrue to guess who?

[Whiskery]

Have AIPA and the troops caved in AGAIN ?:{

[division1]

Did your exec settle for 3%?

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Yep. 3% p.a. for the next 5 years. yes, 5 years

I reckon you long haul blokes ought to see if you can join the ALAEA!

[QFinsider]

As I alluded to the guy "negotiating" or giving away lots will not have to live with it. I will and so will junior colleagues.

Last time it was a Singapore basing, not for Captains of course, just for junior pilots..Not costed nor understood in terms of the tax implications it would have assigned the most junior pilots to a very precarious position. It ought be noted that the Captains would not have had to live in Singapore...The Captains would have got their 3% irrespective of the plight of junior pilots.

As a result, we offloaded the junta to be replaced by another. This time the pay cut goes to guess who???

Just wait till you see the summary dismissal provisions, or the inaility to change aircraft types...

[Keg]

The pay cut goes to no one. Not a single soul gets a pay cut. Having crunched the numbers quite extensively by now- albeit only numbers I got through a phone call- I find it laughable that people would be talking about AIPA caving in and 'settling', etc.

Discussing what the EBA is worth in specific terms of percentage pay rises on PPRUNE or any other vaguely public forum- including Qrewroom- is wrought with danger. It still needs to be signed off by both QF and AIPA COM and public discussion as to what it entails puts in jeopardy aspects of it. If you're a QF driver with some concerns then send me a PM either here or on Qrewroom- preferably Qrewroom- with some specific details about your circumstances and future career plans and I'll tell you what I reckon your pay will be like.

Until we've seen the numbers and had the chance to digest the totality of the package, anything else is just rumour. I haven't looked into everyone's circumstances but most of us will do pretty well.

[Dr Itzfukt]

Sounds like you guys have a couple of trolls in your midst as well. Ignore them and they will go away.:=

[assasin8]

This isn't the place for this debate!!!

[QFinsider]

There is no place for debate.

There has been no asking of members what they would like.
It has been driven by old men looking to squeeze a few more dollars for their own pocket.

The details are scant

however looking through the bling, there are many downsides and given the extensive rewrite there is real concern that this thing will be shoved through.


Summary dismissal provisions incredibly vague-but that produces a compliant workforce
Overtime to be paid after more hours of duty
Limited career moves for junior pilots(how many of S/O and F/O will want to withdraw their bids and awarded slots??


Given the duration it has taken to put this document together I sincerely hope people look beyond the bling and not assume what used to be an EXPLICIT term will be covered by implied terms...Most of the pilots know where implied terms have gotten us so far...:suspect:

[dragon man]

There is a spread sheet out from a committee member that shows a 400 S/O year 10 is approx 9% worse off after 5 years of this EBA. That doesnt cover the lost wages from lack of promotion caused by a divisor of 185 with the ability to open the window to 195. It is a shocking result for 2 years of negotiation. We should have taken 3% x 5 years and kept the status quo. If this gets up it will haunt the younger pilots in Qantas in years to come.

[drshmoo]

Interesting Dragon man

The S/Os (like all) should read this EBA8 very carefully. I thought that by not fattening up the S/Os coffers, it would entice them to upgrade and be more usefull to the company. But higher divisers will mean slowing promotion - didnt think of that. When is the Sydney AIPA info day?

[Crusty Demon]

Currently 10 year S/O's on the 400 get paid more than most F/O's in the company.

[Keg]

Dragon man, no doubt you've seen my comments on Qrewroom. Any S/O on the 744 who has been there for 10 years is senior enough to be an F/O on the 744. Yes, they won't get a pay rise until the S/O year 7 pay rate exceeds there current pay rate and that's about three or four years away. However, if they take promotion to the 767 they'll do much better out of it in the medium to long term. When they upgrade to Captain they'll do better again. We've replaced a 12 year pay scale with a 21 year pay scale where the top is much higher than it was previously.

Those who take promotion within the first seven years are looking at a significantly better pay deal than under the previous EBA.

There may be many things to vote 'no' in this EBA, pay is not one of them when considered over the entirety of a career.

The increased divisors will come at the cost of about 21 commands and 42 F/O slots. Twenty one F/Os that replace the guys that got promoted and 21 for the extra flying required to be done due to the lower divisor. Given that QF already runs up hard against those higher divisors a few times a year we're probably at the right establishment for them anyway. :suspect:

Now, can we take it back to Qrewroom? :ok:

[Transition Layer]

In all fairness, while there are a few 10 year S/Os they aren't exactly in the majority in Qantas and have been making a disproportionate amount of noise on qrewroom. Take a bloody promotion fellas!!!

[Keg]

Easy TL, some of them can't. Those guys have my sympathy. :(

For those that chose to stay, well then you get into an interesting discussion about whether it's 'fair' that the gravy train has come to a stop for S/Os on the 744 and been moved onto a twin engine track for F/Os and Captains. I don't expect that many of the 767 crew will give too much thought to the issue. Sad that we have to have the discussion to start off with but anyone with an eye on promotion will not vote 'no' on this EBA due to the pay. They may find other reasons- and I've found one if it's not clarified as I'd like- but it won't be the rates of pay.

[Crusty Demon]

Of most concern is the limit on training allocations through the career. Certainly given this goal post change, many bids would have been different in the current round of allocations. It also changes the whole seniority for rostering basis given that people will stay in rank now longer on a particular type. I certainly would have bid differently given the above goalpost changes.

Surely vertical promotion has to go now. I also wonder how junior the 380 F/O slots will go?

[dragon man]

Keg, all i want is transperency. Dont try and dress the mutton up as lamb. This new agreement was drafted up with no consultation or input from the membership. It has taken 2 years and has seen us go from being in the drivers seat to being well on the back of the power curve. The only real pay benefits go to the 767 ( and good luck to them), but that will probably be gone in 6 or 7 years and the rest will have made big concessions for very little money.

[Angle of Attack]

I guess transperancy will come once you are given the agreement to look at!
Until then why back it or hack it, simple as that you all will have options to think about when it comes to the vote! I would'nt say it's a done deal though damn, it is a done deal once a mojority vote for it. I for one automatically vote NO as a matter of choice obviously in the minority :}

[Keg]

dragon man, you have to pick an issue and stick with it. Your previous comments were about pay and my figures suggest that over the 'typical' career in QF the pay will be better under EBA8. The real pay benefits go to 767/A330/787 pilots and even the 744 drivers end up better off in the short term although that tapers off a bit after a couple of years. Keep in mind the bonus as well.

With pay resolved, now your concerns are on the issue of consultation. I emailed AIPA with some thoughts a couple of years ago when they first asked the crew for input. I emailed some COM members semi-regularly since then to provide other thoughts and to seek updates. I was always acknowledged. I've spoken to Eytan and Barry a few times along the way also.

I'm with AoA though. I'm still a 'no' until I've seen the finalised document. That said, I still reckon the pay matters worth a 'yes'. The devil will be in the detail.

[Kangaroo Court]

Having been involved directly in succesful union negotiations, I can state unequivocaly that the most succesful ones were those that did not involve public debate. It is time to handle this more like executives and control leaks than have the prospective pay rates published in the media with highly antagonistic spin against your membership.

Perhaps more simply; put a cork in it...the lot of you!

[amos2]

So, there you go then!

Kangaroo Man, the "Executive and Control Leak", has spoken! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[QFinsider]

The problem is the existing document is over 650 pages, the new document is around 170. Given the reduction has taken over 18 months to do it is a worry that the membership are to be given some two weeks to understand the document. That is crap. One wonders why?

another month or two of scrutiny isn't going to affect anything unless The Fuhrer wants it signed off ASAP...

[Kangaroo Court]

Then you do it with closed door union roadshows after your elected representatives have had time to summarise it. Just as we did. Our contract is well over a 1000 pages long and comes with a summary book that's nearly 300. This is not something you read over a beer.

I'd be pretty concerned over a document that has been reduced. I have been asked to rewrite bylaws for a club that I belong to and it's impossible to do it and reduce ambiguity by not almost doubling the number of pages.

During the 1980s the NRMA started doing "Plain English" policies that were short and easy to read, until the claims came in and the solicitors started driving trucks through the language in the court room.

Making a document shorter and "easier" to understand is not necessarily a good thing.

[genex]

Few autopsies have been conducted so publicly or so throroughly as on-line analysis of the recent Jetstar pilot EBA.

Is there any real reason why the wider Qantas group pilot body should not have the opportunity to know what's in the new L/H EBA and urge their Qantas colleagues which way to vote. It was recently made quite clear by AIPA that "One pilot's EBA is another pilot's future".....has that changed?

[OneDotLow]

Genex,,

The JQ EBA was leaked by the stakeholders... and then out in a public forum for debate by all.

If you can get a stakeholder in this EBA to leak it, then the same will happen...

Regards.

[Lickthejet]

Gday troops,

First i must say that the FedExc, in my oponion have done a remarkable job.

The biggest test came, when a rumour was handed down throu reasonable channels.

>>>> A LOADED GUN >>>>> and this one is pointing at our own association !!!!!

FOD had made a threat.....

He was going to break the bank....the 4/5 million that the union has in the kitty, was going to be swallowed, in a few massive gulps....as the start of Litagiation was in the gun sites...damages against QF will begin.

Has this buckled our negotiation??

Why were the bands lifted ???
Is this why we crumbled ???
We all still have to vote !!!

I now eargly await the the propasal.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Is there any real reason why the wider Qantas group pilot body should not have the opportunity to know what's in the new L/H EBA and urge their Qantas colleagues which way to vote. It was recently made quite clear by AIPA that "One pilot's EBA is another pilot's future".....has that changed?

No bitch-fest is worth reading 1000 pages for.:ugh:

[Capt Kremin]

I think you are on the wrong thread here.

[max autobrakes]

QFinsider wrote "The problem is the existing document is over 650 pages, the new document is around 170. Given the reduction has taken over 18 months to do it is a worry that the membership are to be given some two weeks to understand the document. That is crap. One wonders why?
another month or two of scrutiny isn't going to affect anything unless The Fuhrer wants it signed off ASAP... "



At least we'll get more time to consider this deal than we did for EBA 7!:}

[4PW's]

For what it's worth, if you are thinking of posting the QF EBA, why not take your finger off the SEND icon for a minute.

Run around your block a few times. Chase your dog around the yard.

Then take a cold shower, and reconsider the implications of what you're planning to do.

Just because Jetstar's EBA somehow found its way onto this forum doesn't mean any other EBA, Qantas' or otherwise, should do the same; two wrong's not making a right and all.

It'd make interesting reading, but it isn't really the public's to read.

Please don't do it, and this from a non-Qantas pilot.