EASA proposes radical changes for JAA flight training outside Europe

[Finn47]

In what seems a prime example of EU bureaucrats at work, EASA seems to think that because "basic EU law needs to be followed", starting in 2012, flight training for JAA/EASA licences can only be given by instructors who have JAA licences and instructor ratings - and by schools which have their main base in Europe. This would be catastrophic for studying in the US and other non-JAA countries and definitely make flight training even more expensive for many European hopefuls. Many training organisations would probably have to close their doors on both sides of the Atlantic. Article here:

European pilot training industry 'heads for paralysis' (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/07/10/225169/european-pilot-training-industry-heads-for-paralysis.html)

Stupid protectionist rule in my opinion. Hope it doesn´t pass.

[nich-av]

It will not happen in 2012, it may never happen.

Most major flight schools train their pilots abroad: OAA, CTC, SFA, KLS, Lufthansa Academy, etc...

If EASA decides to make that happen, no one will train any longer as training cost will increase dramatically.

Now, around 2012 we should be in the middle of a big pilot shortage... and it would be inappropriate for the EASA to do that.

France will certainly vote in favor of it, but the UK will surely veto as will the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium.



On another note, EASA wants to implement a SPL/MPL system.
-I wonder how they would handle conversion from SPL to MPL and vice-versa.
-I wonder how they would handle conversions from ICAO to EASA SPL/MPL.

[potkettleblack]

On the positive side it might mean that a certain flight school on the east coast of the US might be forced to close its doors:)

[chrisbl]

I suspect that arrangements will be made to have a "main base" EU and a subsidiary base in the US say to get round this.

Otherwise someone like Oxford AA willbe stuffed.

[Micheal O Toole]

If sombody has already started their JAA training in the US, if this EASA is passed, will it only offect future students or will it effect everybody?? including pilots that have already trained in the US??

[cyrilroy21]

this would result in a further shortfall of 1,250 professional pilots a year to the EU airline industry, when the demand for pilots is higher than it has ever been.

Pardon my knowledge but I believe there are plenty of pilots in Europe yet to get their first jobs.

If so then the above quote is quite ironic in nature :hmm:

[proudprivate]

It is definitely bad for the airline industry. Whether there is an actual shortage or surplus in professional pilots now or in the future depends on the particular market segment.

However, it is clear that the EASA draft FCL proposal has no real safety arguments or statistics in support.

The MEP's of the transport committee have just received the translation and will scrutinize it. If you also don't like what you see, I suggest you write or call the offices of the transport committee (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/activities/committees/membersCom.do?language=EN&body=TRAN) and voice your concerns.

The more people do this, the more chance they will vote it away and insist on the European Commission and EASA get their act together. Then your "hope" becomes reality.

[PPRuNe Towers]

PP - first sentence.

It is definitely bad for the airline industry.

Explain please.

In fact - let's assume a 75% shut down of the JAA/Easa FTO world and a tripling of charges to students for 3 to 5 years. How would that change the airline industry with the vast numbers of qualified but enemployed waiting in the wings? I contend that as an economic mechanism it is the only one I've seen proposed that, in the medium to long term, would stop the downward pressure on terms and conditions for career airline pilots. Please note - that's airline pilots - the reason why most are on this forum in particular.

Additionally there are FTO's cropping up all over the JAA states, especially in low wage ones, and totally over supplying the market. These FTO's are producing pilots who can never, ever be absorbed by their own countries airline industry - they already exist purely as an alternative to Florida and California.

So, my contention: In the great pyramid of aviation the layer that is flight training is not actually connected to airlines other than in a symbiotic (at best) or parasitic way. Flight training exists as a separate and independent part of the pyramid - mistletoe living off the parent tree and desperate to remain healthy and growing irrespective of what is happening to the tree itself.

Or if you want it more bluntly:

I don't see how a single word of what you've written can be seen as anything other than flying club and FTO spin in the light of only 50% of CPL's ever adding a full, working type rating here in the UK.

[BillieBob]

The loss of a few low-grade puppy farms in the US would have absolutely zero effect on the European airline industry. However, the loss of biz-jet and helicopter type rating training capacity should Flight Safety, CAE Simuflite, ECFT and Bombardier be removed from the marketplace would be rather more significant. It is, therefore, a good thing that this thread is based on a complete load of bovine excrement.

If the OP had taken the trouble to look at the latest version of Part-FCL (and in particular FCL.900(c)) instead of relying on a 3 year old magazine article, he would have known that there is virtually no change in the requirements for non-EU instructors providing training outside of the EU. The only change in the approval of overseas training organisations is that the approval will be administered by EASA rather than the individual member states.

It is perhaps surprising that the obvious flaw in the story was not spotted by one or more of the supposedly better-informed correspondents but, then, I suppose it does suit the odd hidden agenda.

[BigGrecian]

This thread is way out of date.

I don't know whether any one has actually read any of the last proposed regulations or comments on them....

But to me there was no indication that flight training outside of EASA would not be allowed. There was at the beginning but not in any recent versions, but we really won't know till November when the actual regulations will be published.

EASA intend to regulate approximately half of the outside FTOs themselves and the remainder will be put out to contract to other EASA states. Who know who will regulate the UK CAA FTOs in the USA - it may be the UK, it may be EASA directly it may be the Latvians. :}

[BillieBob]

Good point, which makes my final comment even more apposite!

[Halfwayback]

It is an old article and has been overtaken by events. However it does raise a couple of questions

Finn47
Stupid protectionist rule in my opinion.

How does that match up with the fact that FAA licences can only be granted after training only in America with FAA licensed intstructors?

If this is to ensure that the issuing state has control of the standard of training throughout (to maintain the status and integrity) of their licences then the obvious parallel course would have to be JAA licences only issued after training in Europe by JAA licenced instructors.

However it is not a course of action I subscribe to and shows EC / EASA are bound by impractical rules blind to commercial arguement.

SoCal
Not sure that the article, with a by-line to David Learmount, was written by the OP. Can you explain?

HWB

[proudprivate]

because the

* Reference is 3 years old

* At least some quotes are debatable at best, e.g.


How does that match up with the fact that FAA licences can only be granted after training only in America with FAA licensed intstructors?


or the figures quoted at the end of the gentlemen's blog.



Now as to PPrune Towers Remarks :

1) The less barriers to entry into a profession (through costs, regulation, etc...) the more continuing the potential employee intake for an industry will be, which is a good thing for the industry.

2) Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect the current overcapacity in pilot resources lies predominantly in the sub 1500 hours CPL/ATPL category, with a large percentage of them not having a type rating. Many of them go by taking with a side job for which they are grossly overqualified (such as driving a van for a delivery service or a junior airport staffing function), with some of them flying the odd hour as a flying club instructor.

[There is a Chinese story by Dschuang Dsi (adapted by René Thom) about a student who went to the dragon slayer academy, where he studied very hard to acquire the necessary skills. After 3 years, he was fully prepared. Alas, he found no dragons to practice his skill. As a result, he began to teach how to slay dragons]

3) The loss of biz-jet type rating training capacity should first class training facility providers like Flight Safety be removed from the marketplace would indeed negatively affect the intake possibilities for the airline industry. It is therefore important to create a business environment in which such organisations (or, if any, their more efficient competitors) can thrive.

I don't believe that imposing restrictive or protectionist regulation is the way forward though. In doing so, you are not improving market conditions, you limit supply and you risk retalliation.

Rather, I'm of the impression that professional flight training ought to be integrated with sufficiently other marketable skills so that wannabees, after investing potentially significant sums of money (i.e the better part of 100K EUR) are at least armed for the labour market at a level commensurate with their capacity and skill.

There is a danger of undercapacity in the long term if a significant percentage of the current "low hour CPL segment" leaves the market and is nowhere near being replaced by new entries due to overly restrictive regulation. The horizon for this to happen is of course not now, but 5 years from now.

Furthermore, if premium organisations that provide type ratings do not have a viable business model then that should deserve our full attention. But does it not seem odd to you that using regulation to restrict supply / competition is a preferred way to resolve the issue.

I would see a lot more potential in significant de-regulation : lowering the costs for maintenance and other forms of compliance so that more commercial aviation business can effectively take place when threshold prices become more attractive for both the corporate and private clientele.


Now, this thread-part on EASA FCL becomes academic as regards outside Europe JAA flight training if indeed it's a simple matter of granting authority (Member States versus EASA), provided no new restrictions would be imposed on those particular flight training organisations.

My personal interest in this debate is more related with the issues involving private N-reg aviation; The common denominator is that regulating through an Aviation Safety Agency should be limited to aviation safety and that overregulation in general has detrimental effects on the efficiency of an industry.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Over in the Admin forum we recommend our mods think through a contentious issue on the basis of substitution. For example FAA for Easa, US sim facility for 'threatened' European one,

As Halfwayback indicated above, substitution instantly shows when a street isn't and never has been two way. Much of the posturing by Easa has been shaking the tree to make progress in several areas of reciprocity as I've pointed out before.

Today I'm working JAA/Indonesian. I do fair a bit of EI - My Chinese validation has had a good airing this year but the main bread and butter has been with my ATP rather than ATPL . Level playing field the sooner the better for me and that means JAA, Easa or whoever has to work towards a basis of two way, equal rights.

I don't believe that imposing restrictive or protectionist regulation is the way forward though. In doing so, you are not improving market conditions, you limit supply and you risk retalliation.

In the turkeys not voting for Christmas department you are up to your neck in fighting to maintain the N reg one way street aren't you?

[proudprivate]

towards a basis of two way, equal rights


I would be the first one to favour two way, equal rights. Now from a private perspective, where does that take me :

If I have a JAA license, I can fly my LZ-reg into the US without a problem (assuming I clear customs and have normal entry rights of course).
If I have a JAA license, I can convert it my Bulgarian license into an FAA one on a simple declaration by the Bulgarian Civil Aviation Authority that my license is no fake.
If I want an instrument rating on the basis of that Bulgarian license with instrument flying privileges, I have to sit 1 (one) theoretical exam, for which adequate training materials are available online for free.

Now let's look at the other side :

If I have an N-reg and my operator happens to be in the EU, I will have a license problem : I'm required to hold an EASA license.
The conversion of FAA private licenses into JAA private licenses is problematic. The basic PPL will cost me two exams (on mostly non-safety related issues) and a checkride, plus a number of harrassing issues such as a Language proficiency exam, a Radiotelephony exam, a medical that is 3 times as expensive etc etc...
The conversion of the FAA instrument rating will cost me 7 exams and a checkride.

So again from a purely private perspective, I fail to see the "two-way street" here being advocated by EASA.


As I've indicated at length in other threads, regulation is an inefficient tool to negotiate. Much better to enact it through delegation, going directly at the issues concerned. Furthermore, if any imbalances or one-way streets were to exist, might I suggest to leave N-reg private pilots out of the equation as they have nothing to do with it ?

I'm all in favour of getting mutual license recognition, from PPL over CPL to ATPL and type ratings alike. But the Commission claims that it will be capable of negotiating this over the next two years, which you and I know is, to put it in the terms of this thread, bovine excrement.


In the turkeys not voting for Christmas department you are up to your neck in fighting to maintain the N reg one way street aren't you?


As a pro-European democrat, I'm particularly appalled by the way the democratic process in Europe is being raped in this procedure. That is why I'm so engaged, and much more than I would (should) be over any other issue, such as hunger in Somalia, the Greek Debt crisis or social integration of the handicapped in my province.

I have no personal pecuniary interest in this matter (apart from money invested (sunk) in flight training). But I'm very much afraid for quite a few of our fundamental freedoms if the European Executive and its agencies can get away with this without at least getting a bloody nose in the fight.

Personally, I do have some exits, but they are not available to all but a happy few, so I find that most unsatisfactory.


but we really won't know till November when the actual regulations will be published


which is us of course under the assumption that the transport committee does not object to the draft proposal. And if I have it my way, they will.

[KAG]

Stupid protectionist rule in my opinion. Hope it doesn´t pass. Protectionism from WHO??? Can you set a FAA flight school in Europe??? Can you fly a JAA-reg airplane in the US???


I did, years ago, my training in a small flight school up north, they gave me a job at the end of my training. That's precisely why I went to do my training with this particular school at that time. When I see those jet wannabe factories, I wonder how they can find so many customers. There is no way I would have spent my money without an opportunity at the end of my training.

You don't train to get a licence, you train to get a job, always remember that.


Protectionism you say? BIG joke. Put your glasses on and try to see straight.
Job issue you say? BIG joke. Should I really say why?

Free market? Only the ones who hope to get something from their neighbour fight for economic freedom. There is not such a thing, the world is about to find out.

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/m/v/3/Deregulation.jpg











-----------------------------------------

***Reminder to any wannabe: the british Richard Branson (virgin), the german army, the french prime minister, the american army gave some warnings: within 5 years the energy cost, especially oil, will most likely reach an unsustainable level. Think twice...

[proudprivate]

Can you set a FAA flight school in Europe???

We had one in Belgium until our local CAA put a stop to it. There still are some in France and Switzerland. The UK CAA also acted against FAA flight training.


Can you fly a JAA-reg airplane in the US???


Yes you can. With the correct JAA licenses, medicals and of course, crew or other appropriate visa.


You don't train to get a licence, you train to get a job, always remember that.

I've trained to be a safe pilot, and got a license to lifelong learning with it. Never in my entire life have I "trained to get a job". I've got an education, added experience and developed it into an exciting career, never trying to miss an opportunity to meet new people, expand horizons, develop ideas.


Free market? Only the ones who hope to get something from their neighbour fight for economic freedom. There is not such a thing, the world is about to find out.


Can I recommend a book (http://books.google.be/books?hl=nl&lr=&id=-n-7ZbAaOjUC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=macroeconomics+understanding+the+wealth+of+nations&ots=fgnTEorDuv&sig=aKcP65fLZQznTi3I5TY1W15UywA#v=onepage&q&f=false) ? No advertising intended. As most corporate pilots spend about half of their time waiting, perusing this one might be a good investment (you know the approach plates by heart and you can't stare at weather briefings and notams forever).

You would learn that when you are a relatively strong economic force (like the European Union) with a significant exporting capacity, protectionism is not a good thing. You would also learn that some developing countries that cannot benefit even from comparative advantage trading are indeed better off shielding their markets. The European Union is not in that position.

Now don't get me wrong. The US, under pressure from the still ongoing crisis, is playing a protectionist game in a variety of fields itself. The latest nonsense on the aviation front there was in jet maintenance, where they wanted to shield themselves from South American maintenance. Counterregulation is not an efficient tool in this context. Negotiation, combined with the threat of trade countermeasures, is much more effective.

As for the cartoon wisdom : If we deregulate we hang ourselves ? Whom should we be afraid of exactly ?

[BillieBob]

The UK CAA also acted against FAA flight training.No, the CAA acted against an organisation that was operating outside the law and happened to be offering, among other things, FAA training. There are still a number of organisations in the UK offering FAA training for both fixed-wing and rotary licences and ratings, operating legally and registered with the TSA.

[proudprivate]

The UK CAA also acted against FAA flight training


I wasn't referring to a particular training organisation; Rather, the restriction imposed (I assume by the Transport Ministry and enforced by the CAA) to limit FAA flight training to training in your own aircraft, which naturally restricted the development of flight schools beyond offering ground school in the UK.

Or am I misinformed about this issue and can you, after a TSA clearance etc... complete an FAA curriculum all up to the check ride sign off in the UK ?

Also, didn't the CAA act against taking FAA checkrides in the UK ? Wasn't that the reason that Thomas Hughston left Norwich for "la côte Opale" ?

[KAG]

Proudprivate:Can you set a FAA flight school in Europe??

We had one in Belgium until our local CAA put a stop to it. There still are some in France and Switzerland. The UK CAA also acted against FAA flight training.Ok interesting, I didn't know. Where is this FAA flight school in France exactly, I might be interested, I have north american licences among others...




Can you fly a JAA-reg airplane in the US???

Yes you can. With the correct JAA licenses, medicals and of course, crew or other appropriate visa.But you know it doesn't exist as the americans wouldn't want to let that happen right?







You don't train to get a licence, you train to get a job, always remember that. I've trained to be a safe pilot, and got a license to lifelong learning with it. Never in my entire life have I "trained to get a job". I've got an education, added experience and developed it into an exciting career, never trying to miss an opportunity to meet new people, expand horizons, develop ideas.How much are safe the pilots coming out of the factories who stay years without flying because no job?
A school that has a charter department and entrust you with a job on their own airplane has to trust their own training.
"meet new people, expand horizons, develop ideas..." I am right now in China, and was next to Kazakhstan yesterday...
I speak chinese at home (I have been living in China for many years now), I have lived on several continents including Africa Europe and North America... And I am doing distance learning... So I see what you mean and can truly appreciate what you just wrote... But what is the link with safety?
I don't know if you are a private, but getting a CPL without getting any job doesn't make sense.




Proudprivate:As for the cartoon wisdom : If we deregulate we hang ourselves ? Whom should we be afraid of exactly ?I don't know... Cheap labour countries attrackting our industries and our jobs could qualify?

Anyway economy is very interesting, I read quite a few books written by economists, they tend to think everything is perfect as far as there is no regulation in a big free market, everything balances itself. I even read somewhere an economist wanting to explain crime and marriage! Let me know if you want to know more about it, it was all offer/supply and demand for him... Perfect world with perfect statistics... Not on earth then.
I will read your book thanks for the link.

[zondaracer]

Proudprivate: Quote:
Quote:
Can you set a FAA flight school in Europe???
We had one in Belgium until our local CAA put a stop to it. There still are some in France and Switzerland. The UK CAA also acted against FAA flight training.
Ok interesting, I didn't know. Where is this FAA flight school in France exactly, I might be interested, I have north american licences among others...

Orbifly, located in Geneva, Paris area, and Cannes
ORBIFLY FLIGHT SCHOOL (http://www.orbifly.com)

Quote:
Quote:
Can you fly a JAA-reg airplane in the US???
Yes you can. With the correct JAA licenses, medicals and of course, crew or other appropriate visa.
But you know it doesn't exist as the americans wouldn't want to let that happen right?


I´m not sure that it is so much that we wouldn´t allow it to happen, but rather that it is not practical, nor is it cost-effective to operate a JAA-reg aircraft in the US.

[KAG]

Thanks zondaracer, will have a look at this "Orbifly", might be interesting.

From Orbifly:"FULL EUROPE" training : The full training is done in Europe with an FAA instructor, and a Flight Examiner comes from the US for the final examination. This option was closed since September the 11th, but was re-opened. It depends upon the World's political context.
This school opened in 1999...




From Orbifly again:You trained and passed your IR in the US. Congratulation ! You have learnt a lot about the US airspace and rules.
Now you are back in the old Europe, and you would appreciate a transition course to get used to the other side of the Atlantic... In the old Europe??????? And they want to have europeans customer? Better to let the politic aside, unless they don't understand what it means saying "old Europe"... This name appeared at the beginning of Iraq... So weird to read it on this website.

[BillieBob]

Or am I misinformed about this issue and can you, after a TSA clearance etc... complete an FAA curriculum all up to the check ride sign off in the UK ?
Yes, you are and yes, you can.Also, didn't the CAA act against taking FAA checkrides in the UK ? Wasn't that the reason that Thomas Hughston left Norwich for "la côte Opale" ? Nope, FAA checkrides are routinely conducted in the UK

[kaptn]

Let's simplify the problem :
-JAA-->EASA : Will the JAA ATPL training change? in terms of the training syllabus?
-Does these changes apply to only FTOs outside Europe?

-What will happen to current JAA students/Pilots....Will they need any fresh up courses or so?
:oh:

[BigGrecian]

-JAA-->EASA : Will the JAA ATPL training change? in terms of the training syllabus?

Probably not - we will find out in November, when the regulations are published.

-Does these changes apply to only FTOs outside Europe?

No anticipated changes to outside Europe FTOs - we will find out in November when the regulations are published.

-What will happen to current JAA students/Pilots....Will they need any fresh up courses or so?

Current JAA pilots will be grandfathered in - national licences won't be - your national authority will have probably have all ready published information on this - the UK CAA has at
Licensing and Training Standards | EASA | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?gid=2061)

[proudprivate]

Billiebob :

from the Essential information before embarking on flight training with iFlyFAA (http://www.iflyfaa.com/essential-info.html) website:
You will need permission from the Department for Transport to train in your N registered aircraft which must be owned or part owned by you.

two possibilities:
a) the author is sprouting hogwash on her website

b) As the average flight training student does not own or part-own an aircraft, the UK CAA is effectively restricting the operations of flight schools in the UK.

Which one is it ?

[BillieBob]

Ah, the old 'moving the goalposts' ploy. Why have 'N' registered aircraft suddenly entered the discussion? The original question was "Can you set a FAA flight school in Europe?" and was followed by your own "....can you, after a TSA clearance etc... complete an FAA curriculum all up to the check ride sign off in the UK ?" and the answer to both questions remains, Yes!

The use of 'N' registered aircraft is an entirely different matter. The use of [U]any foreign registered aircraft in the UK for aerial work or public transport is subject to permission from the DfT (not the CAA), including those registered in EU member states and even the Isle of Man. (ANO Articles 223-225 refer)

[proudprivate]

the old 'moving the goalposts' ploy


:mad: No, I'm trying to establish facts about the alleged "one-way street" that PPruneTowers is referring to. And it is a genuine interest.

Now, suppose I'm a US resident (or at least am legal to work in the US) with a JAA instructor-license and no FAA papers. Can I instruct on my LZ-registered aircraft in Texas (assuming that the Bulgarian CAA doesn't object)?

Are there any particular pesterings that the FAA or specific US departements impose that would restrict the operations of a (private or corporate) LZ-aircraft in the US which would not be the case if the aircraft were N-registered and operating in Bulgaria (or anywhere else in Europe for that matter) ? Are there specific taxation rules, equivalent to the VAT rule in Europe, that are unavoidable in the US ?

In summo, what aspects of privately or corporate owned and operated aircraft would hint at a "one-way street" between the US and Europe ?

[IO540]

I have never heard of any US law which would prevent somebody running an "FTO" with European reg planes in the USA. There might be some TSA issues e.g. you may need to register with them.

Obviously one would be a fool to actually do it because N-reg is a much better regime than EASA-reg.

In fact the mere business of getting your Part M maintenance done out there would make a mockery of it.

The DfT permission is just to keep a lid on the N-reg scene over here, otherwise the whole of the UK would be N-reg :)

[proudprivate]

No she is spot on.


and


The DfT permission is just to keep a lid on the N-reg scene over here, otherwise the whole of the UK would be N-reg


To be perfectly honest with you, I thought so. Any ideas what the "one way street" might be that PPruneTowers is referring to ?

And what would the problem be if the whole of the UK were to be N-reg ? I can imagine FTOs and private instructors thriving in the UK (as N-reg) because they get a lot more customers. Wouldn't there be intelligent ways to collect money by the CAA to get her funded ?