Open Skies lifestyle

[Captain Douglas]

Please can any pilots that have joined OS give me an insight into how they are finding their new lives there?

The culture, work patterns eg rosters, load factors, friendliness of management and colleagues. All that good stuff!!

regards

[Iver]

I am personally not interested in OS (I probably don't have the quals either) but I wondered about that too. I understand OS intends to operate flights out of major European cities like London, Paris, Brussels, Milan, etc., but how would pilots operate those flights? Are there set pilot bases yet beyond Paris? Would a Paris based crew also fly out of Milan, Amsterdam, etc. or just to-from Paris? How will they shuttle around between cities in Europe?

[turboV1]

Let me just point out a minor mistake,
AFAIK, OS is Austrian Airlines
Dont know the 2LC for OpenSkies though.

tv1

[Flap33]

I don't have any specific knowledge of their work patterns but would imagine (with only 1 route so far) it's 4-6 2-crew TransAtlantic crossings per month with the odd Stand-by duty thrown in for good measure. I hope they don't have BA's abaility to Force Draft (Draft Assign as it's now) on your days off.

Month in, month out I would guess that pilot turn-over will be quite high. From experience of 2-crew long-haul, I can assure anyone that it is very tiring.

[wobble2plank]

Take all of the worst aspects of BA rostering and multiply them by a factor of 4. That should give you a rough guide! :}

I also seem to remember that they can reschedule your holidays and also your operating base at the drop of the management hat.

Don't forget it's a meritocracy so best you get real pally with Dale Moss and his mates.

Yes I do work for BA but I also looked at the OS contract in order to have a balanced view (also in the fear it may be imposed on me in the future). It really doesn't look very good.

Good luck if you go for it though.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Flaps

As I understand it trips are "back to back bullets" lasting 6 days.
Wonder what BALPA's view of back to backs is if they get involved?
:\

[Flap33]

Mr A,

I have no idea what BALPA thinks of Back-2-Back trips like that except to say that at Mainline BA there are a lot of commuters that volutarily bid for Back-2-BAck. That said mainline have a lot of 3 and 4 man crew trips where this kind of flying isn't quite so bad.

Back-2-back bullet JFKs though, IMHO is asking for trouble, wonder what the pax coming back from JFK would think of it if they knew their pilots were on their 3rd sector in 5 days, probably feeling less than 100%

As I said originally, expect a high turn-over of pilots there, your body can only take that kind of punishment for so long!

[Re-Heat]

It seems hardly helpful that this thread is dominated by conjecture from mainline pilots rather than useful information from actual OS pilots.

Are there any on PPRuNe I wonder?

[4468]

I'm afraid I can't see there being any effective BALPA representation at OS for some very considerable time. (Some window dressing perhaps)

It just appears to me that the T&Cs, and indeed the whole employment ethos, are simply not compatible with any Union efforts to drive up costs! :rolleyes:

Increased costs will not be tolerated. (with 17 pax on a transatlantic 757, it's making spectacular losses already!) Anyone making waves will see a detrimental effect on their employment.

As has been implied earlier. It is pretty obvious that this 'airline within an airline' has been designed from the very outset, to thrive on a high turnover of staff, and in the medium term to drive down staff costs.

The fact that, in the meantime, it might carry the odd passenger (at huge cost!), is purely coincidental!

Re-Heat, nice try!

The reason OS pilots aren't here is because they are either flying or sleeping!:)

(Or just don't want to upset Dale!)

[omoko joe]

Thats all very interesting but as has been requested repeatedly does anybody who actually works for them have anything to say on the subject? The Rostering has nothing to do with BA. It's subcontracted out to a charter firm along with various other operation functions. The contract that appears on their website might make those at BA wince but compared to a great many others out there it has it's merits. I notice they have stopped recruiting though.

[Helmut F.]

It makes me wonder if I compare previous posts with the workload of loco and charter pilot during the summer vacation season.
Secondhand info is that since operation has just started out of 1 base presently 2 sector duties,thereafter Off and Stby.
Colleges of l`avion stated great lifestyle but that was prior merger.

[Vrille]

Maybe Open Skies' pilots are too busy on "back to back bullets" to spend time on PPRUNE ? :eek:

[Banzai Eagle]

Many Pilots asked publically what life was like at Silverjet and you never saw much / if any comments from their Pilots on pprune. This will probably remain until the shine wears off at OpenSky.

[ea306]

Gentlemen,

This thread has been an interesting read. Forgive me if my question seems a bit strange, as I am a British born Canadian and have spent my career thus far mostly in Canada with the exception of a short stint in the Middle East as well as doing some extended charter work in the UK with a Canadian company under contract to a UK operation.

Having spent most of my career flying under the abysmal Canadian Air Regulations with some of the worse Crew Flight Duty Time regulations in the Western Hemisphere and also having only known non-augmented two pilot crew trans-Atlantic operations; I am curious to know if Open Skies makes use of a program similar to what we have in Canada known as: Controlled Rest in the Flight Deck.

Does the CAA and BA make a provision available to flight crew to get some "on duty" rest while working the type of rosters previous posters have described? Is getting a nap frowned upon in this type of operation or is it generally accepted?

The roster patterns mentioned are very difficult to maintain without there being a degradation in Human Performance.

Personally I appreciate working in the UK under your JAR-OPS for crew duty times and limitations as compared to what we have here in Canada.

Look forward to reading your comments...:)


David

[Human Factor]

I understand OS intends to operate flights out of major European cities like London, Paris, Brussels, Milan, etc.

Almost right. Open Skies is prevented from operating from the UK by (recently) legally binding agreement.

[Re-Heat]

One interesting thought - if the venture failed, the company would be obliged to offer jobs within the group to those in OS. By the backdoor to mainline/Cityflyer...?

[TheKabaka]

I do not thinkour (BA) MOA are legally binding.

Icould be wrong of course,it's happend before:)

[oapilot]

One interesting thought - if the venture failed, the company would be obliged to offer jobs within the group to those in OS. By the backdoor to mainline/Cityflyer...?

That is an interesting one. When BACX was being hived off (another wholly owned subsidiary don't forget), the question was raised with management, (BA & BACX), and most importantly BALPA - "If the Flybe deal is rejected by the workforce and Walsh closes the company down, will we be offered FLYING jobs with mainline, given they were recruiting at the time."

Funny thing :ugh:, we never got a straight answer from any of the above. Legally, I suspect we would have been given the selection process in an abbreviated form and those that didn't fit the BA profile would have been given the boot and redundancy, but who knows?

And please, can we not use this post as an excuse to open the ancient history file by those on either side of the BA/BACX fence with an axe to grind.

oap

PS At the risk of opening a can of worms, was having a beer recently with a guy who has the chance of going to OpenSkies. His view on the bulk of the contract and how it was going to work wasn't that different to the majority (i.e. not BA) of carriers operating 75/767s on long charter routes. Didn't go into vast detail as aviation was in danger of spoiling a fine night out.

[4468]

Sounds like some considerable disruption over the last couple of days. Perhaps the lifestyle can best be described as 'unpredictable'? :rolleyes:

Still no OS pilots here?? :confused:

[spider_man]

I notice they have stopped recruiting though.

757 First Officer recruitment has re-opened on the website.

[overstress]

From what I've heard, you will allegedly be expected to carry a lot of defects...

[1000 to go]

Well, maybe, but the needs for ETOPS may not allow that.

Delays...........Most certainly

[Sir_Fly-a-Lot]

Seems they are recruiting both Captains and First Officers again as part of their planned expansion.

https://www.flyopenskies.com/os/careers

However, If you click on the "download Terms and Conditions" item, you get an error message :ugh: Guess there aren't any! :=

Seriously, anyone have any info on how they are doing ? Any crews care to shed any light on the recruitment process, way of life etc. ??

Thanks :ok:

[omoko joe]

I've heard the non type-rated swimmers in the pool will need heavy duty lifejackets.

[holyflurkingschmitt]

Here's some of the T&C:

SCHEDULE A
PILOT REMUNERATION AND BENEFITS – 1 Apr 08
This Schedule sets out the current benefits policy applicable for pilots. The terms of the policy are subject to the terms and conditions of pilots’ contracts of employment, including any applicable rights of the company to vary or withdraw elements of the benefits package from time to time. In the event of any inconsistency between the contract of employment and this Schedule A, the contract of employment shall prevail.

Basic Salary

Position Cat A Cat B Cat C
Captain £73,500 £66,150 N/A
Senior First Officer £44,100 £36,750 £31,500
First Officer (frozen ATPL) £37,800 £30,450 £25,200

Position Cat A Cat B Cat C
Captain €104,370 €93,933 N/A
Senior First Officer €62,622 €52,185 €44,730
First Officer (frozen ATPL) €53,676 €43,239 €35,784

Cat A – a direct entry pilot with recent experience on an OpenSkies aircraft type.
Cat B – a direct entry pilot who has joined on the OpenSkies type training scheme. The salary reflects the deduction made by OpenSkies to repay the pilot’s type training loan.
Cat C – a cadet entry pilot who has joined on the OpenSkies Pilot Sponsored programme. The salary reflects the deduction made by OpenSkies to repay the pilot’s ab-initio training loan.

Direct Entry Captains will not be eligible for the OpenSkies type training scheme and any type training required will be provided by OpenSkies. Direct Entry Captains who are not type rated on an OpenSkies aircraft type will receive 50% of their basic salary for the first 2 months of employment (or until completion of their Final Line Check if sooner) and 100% thereafter

Sector Pay for other Duties
Airport Standby: Airport Standby (ASBY) payments
- One intra-European sector will be paid per Airport Standby Duty
- If a pilot is called out to fly, the sector pay will revert to payment of the flying sectors earned.

Examiner/Instructor:
- One Transatlantic sector payment will be made whenever the examining/instructing duty exceeds 4 hours.

Allowances & hotel accommodation
An overnight (per-diem) allowance of $100 US/75 Euros/ 53 GBP is paid for each night the company provides hotel accommodation. This allowance is paid to provide for food and other living costs whilst on duty away from their Gateway Airport.1

Gateway Basing
Pilots will be required to live within 2 hrs travelling time of the Gateway airport or, if they live further afield, to be prepared to position to their Gateway airport such that they are able to start a duty tour fully rested. Any travelling and accommodation costs in positioning to the Gateway airport will be at the pilot’s expense. The Gateway airport may be changed no more than once a year within an agreed ‘cluster’ of airports. There are currently three clusters; Cluster A comprises of BRU, ORY, CDG, AMS, Cluster B comprises of FRA, MUC, MXP, GVA, ZRH Cluster C comprises of MAD, BCN It may be that you will be required to operate from or to any of the Company’s current or future Operating bases. This is referred to a non-Gateway report and in this case, pilots are required to self-position and the Company will pay you a return positioning allowance of; Intra - Europe £70/100 Euros LHR/LGW, SOU, Wokingham to Europe £105/150 Euros
The intent of the allowance is to cover the costs of ‘firm’ surface transport. There is an allocation of duties hours to reflect the time spent positioning (‘Company time’), which will count towards your 2000 annual duty hours. For Non-Gateway reports, the Company will also provide hotel accommodation with an associated per diem payment for the night prior to your duty block.1 The Company reserves the option to position pilots to Non-Gateway reports at Company expense in which case the positioning allowance will not be paid.

PILOT BENEFITS
Annual leave
The pilot’s contractual entitlement is for 132 days off per year. The entitlement consists of 104 days off and 28 annual leave days (the annual leave days are awarded via an online system).
In practice, the discharge of days off will provide all pilots with a maximum of 35 days leave to be taken during the calendar year. In addition, pilots may also elect to take an additional 3 GDOs (Guaranteed days off) throughout the year.

Flexible Benefit Package
All pilots will be granted a flexible benefit package of 15% of basic salary from the company to use as part of the flexible benefit scheme. After the deduction of any statutory social contributions required by applicable EU law, this entitlement will available to the individual pilot to obtain the following benefits to suit their individual needs;

Pension;
Life Insurance;
Critical Illness Insurance;
Permanent Health Insurance;
Private Medical Insurance; and
Loss of Licence Insurance
Which of these you choose, and the level of cover, is entirely up to you and can be changed as your circumstances change subject to the rules of the scheme.

Aircrew Medicals
Flight crew will be reimbursed for the actual cost of one class one medical certificate renewal per year, based on CAA/JAA requirements and recommended charges.

Staff Travel
As a subsidiary of British Airways plc, pilots will benefit from the staff travel policy on British Airways in accordance with the terms of the staff travel policy. Details of this policy are in the Employee Handbook.

Sick pay
Provided you comply with all applicable rules, you will receive salary continuation for any period of absence due to illness or injury for a period and at a rate defined by the Company. Full details of the sickness policy are in the Employee Handbook.

Standby Duty
When called from standby, a crew member is required to use his best endeavours to report as soon as possible, however no crew member will take more than 120 minutes from call out to crew room report.
It is the pilot's responsibility to ensure that he remains contactable and within network coverage during periods of standby.

Retirement Age
The normal retirement age is 65.

HFS:ok:

[Cavallier]

Wow......these conditions are not very good!

T'Cav:cool:

[Sick]

Check the date they were published; - A joke, but who are the fools?

[biddedout]

Wow! No company contribution to a pension scheme, just a small personal contribution after you have bought your Loss of Licence PHI etc out of the 15% "flexible benefit package":rolleyes:.

Is the chief pilot leading the way and setting an example on this one or is it BAcon all over again, a BA fat cats "Leadership Team"retaining their full BA package without taking any risk?:ugh:

[FlyingOW]

Quite shocking really! I am on a basic of approx 41,000 GBP p.a. flying as an FO on B763ER in PERU all of places, where COL is about 1/5th of that in UK. Was considering returning in the future but I am truly discouraged by these figures. What is the industry coming to in EU?

OW

[Human Factor]

Is the chief pilot leading the way and setting an example...

The chief pilot is a BA pilot manager, not Open Skies.

[hunterboy]

Doesn't sound a lot of money after UK tax. Perhaps with a bit more backbone, OS pilots would have been on mainline T & C's?
The way things seem to be playing out with credit crunches and the downturn in the world economy, I can foresee OS getting kicked into touch at some point. What price a mainline slot then? I hope everyone has a back up plan.

[Tandemrotor]

Most do. It's called 'a pension'! :rolleyes:

[biddedout]

Didn't notice these BA managers taking a B or C pay scale to cover costs when they helped themselves to a collection of training qualifications just before jumping back to the mother ship from BACX/ BACon. :hmm: I hear they are now appearing in OS. Just keep an eye out for when they run back to mother, its the first sign that all is not well.:yuk:

[FlyingTom]

BA mainline only pays 11.9% towards your pension these days.

The guy who helped set the dc pension up now runs OpenSkies!

[ShortfinalFred]

That'll be "Rubber" then. Nice! Not!! Or at least, he's the CP. Did Dale Moss design the new BARP, (sounds like BARFF and might as well be for all the good it is), scheme BA is using?

[Roadtrip]

Wow. Those are really pathetically poor conditions of employment. I guess they've found a few guys that are desperate or dumb enough to work for those pirates.

[ShortfinalFred]

This is the Blueprint of what they want for the whole of BA, and they are very confident that they can get it. Post this in the wannabes forum too - there is now way I'd enter the profession on these terms - they'll kill you before you get to 65, (with nothing to live on in old age perhaps thats just as well).

[no sponsor]

I started filling out the application form a few months back, but didn't submit it. I felt the conditions were even worse than Jet2, and we're bad. The life-style would suck, and the one destination would get pretty boring after a couple of months. I guess the crew will stay in some crummy three-star hotel, and the per diem would mean a poor existence for an f/o. The only benefit I saw would be getting placed into mainline at some point in the future, but I reckon those are pretty long odds. There are a number of people from Jet2 in the hold pool, I guess because we have 757s and a small number have already left to join.

I saw the cadet option, which is presumably set-up for CTC to throw cadets at in the future, further devaluing the profession.

[Saiber]

keep in mind to be profi's - openskies 2LC is EC not OS.........:=

[Human Factor]

Just keep an eye out for when they run back to mother, its the first sign that all is not well.

Well, the first one has gone. RG, the Chief Pilot, is now back with the mother ship as Head of Customer Partnerships.

Edit: Sorry, meant Head of Flight Ops.

[pilotatlast]

RG, Thought Chief pilot was GS?

[Tandemrotor]

GS has also bid back to mainline Long Haul in the current bid.

It's not looking good! :{

[Human Factor]

How long? January? February?

I feel for the employees as it must be a very worrying time for them. The management on the other hand....:=