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dijon moutard
11th Jul 2008, 08:24
Short-haul planes are being railroaded by trains' success




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Print Page: Print (http://javascript<b></b>:print();)Carl Mortished | July 10, 2008

THE lounge was thronged with bleary-eyed and grumpy suits looking in vain for seats. The endless queue for coffee snaked past whimpering children and inconsiderate backpackers.
As the PA speakers announced imminent departure, the throng became a melee at the exit -- an escalator had jammed.
It could be a typical morning at Heathrow, but in my case it was a 7am departure from the Eurostar terminal at St Pancras.
Don't get me wrong, the fast train to Paris and Brussels is a brilliant success, for the time being. Airlines ignore it at their peril and last week Air France threw in the towel and said it was in talks with Veolia, Europe's leading private rail-freight operator, about launching high-speed train services with Air France livery.
The airline industry has been crushed by the price of kerosene and deserted by passengers fed up with delays.
After decades of disappointment, false dawns and virtually bankrupt Channel Tunnels, we have finally arrived at the age of the train and the evidence is in the crowd at St Pancras.
Only five months after opening its doors in November, the new station is chock-a-block at peak hours, an exciting but slightly nerve-racking development for Eurostar and its biggest shareholder, SNCF, the French state railway.
Traffic growth on Eurostar is accelerating like an Alstom locomotive, increasing by 21 per cent in the first quarter, compared with the same period in 2007, and revenues are up by a quarter.
Those figures were no flash in the pan, a boost from all the hooplah at last year's opening of St Pancras. Traffic in the second quarter has grown at similar rates, insiders say.
It would not be unfair to say that squeezing the London-Paris journey time by just 20 minutes has boosted Eurostar's income by 25 per cent.
While Eurostar thunders through Kent, the competing service to Paris and Brussels is lost on a never-ending building site west of London.
The Terminal 5 fiasco has not helped British Airways' short-haul European business, but by next year (assuming no new operational disaster) it should have ironed out the wrinkles.
Then, BA is left with the awful question of whether short-haul air traffic has any future in Europe. The answer has to be a resounding "no".
When did you last hear of a service business where the fuel bill represented more than a third of the operating cost, substantially higher than the cost of the staff? Remember, BA and Air France are not shipping sand and gravel out of the Port of Rotterdam. They are selling a luxurious padded seat and a journey through the stratosphere to pampered executives.
If a third of revenue is burnt in the turbine needed to keep the executive's bottom in mid-air, it doesn't leave much cash for champagne and truffles, or even the pilot's wages.
To make matters worse, the European Commission has secured the agreement of Parliament and Council for the inclusion of airlines in the European Union's Emissions Trading System. It is another blow because, despite what you have been told, carbon trading is a tax on business and, more importantly, the electrified railways won't pay it.
Air France has watched over the past decade as SNCF's Train a Grande Vitesse (TGV) eroded its domestic business. Air services between Paris and Lyons and between Paris and Brussels have been suspended. The train is dominating traffic to Marseilles and Geneva and the new line east to Strasbourg will quickly extinguish air links.
On the London-Paris route, Eurostar boasted 70 per cent of traffic last year and that must be climbing fast. If the distance travelled is 600 miles or less, a train travelling at 190mph has the edge, city centre to city centre.
Of course, BA knew this and expected the attrition -- the airline has always struggled to make money on short-haul routes, battling with budget carriers operating services at lower cost.
If the big European flag carriers can still make their money, it is on long-haul services.
What matters to BA, therefore, is its ability to capture wealthy people who want to fly to America, Asia and Africa. And that market is now threatened.
Air France has the opportunity to capture wealthy Britons who live in a wide catchment area east of Heathrow, in Buckinghamshire, Essex, Suffolk and Kent.
By 2010, Europe's high-speed rail network will be open to competing operators.
The French airline is keeping mum about its plans with Veolia, but it is a reasonable bet that Air France high-speed rail services to Charles de Gaulle Airport will be rolling out of St Pancras within the next five years.
Where does this leave BA? While the British airline fusses over extra runways at Heathrow, its big competitor is planning to run trains all over Europe hoovering up passengers.
You can travel by high-speed train to Charles de Gaulle, to Schiphol in Amsterdam, to Frankfurt and Geneva airports. Where is the high-speed rail link to Heathrow? Is one planned?
The railroading of Air France's domestic business has been achieved by French government diktat and huge public subsidy.
The British Government, meanwhile, panders to BA.
It promotes new runways, oblivious to Heathrow's increasing isolation and lack of utility.
Forget Heathrow. We need Terminal 2 at St Pancras.
The Times

cheers
mustard

Classic Dick
11th Jul 2008, 09:17
Oh No Charlie Jones is back !!!!:mad:

Capt Claret
11th Jul 2008, 09:19
Um, wasn't his name Casey?

Classic Dick
11th Jul 2008, 09:28
No way ! Gough Whitlam's Minister for Transport !

Happy Birthday, Gough you old C**T!:ok:

Ex FSO GRIFFO
11th Jul 2008, 09:44
Nah 'Clarrie'......

T'was Charlie Jones who called the members of the 'hallowed profession'
'Glorified Train Drivers'....wasn't it???
And reckoned that they should be paid accordingly.:{

Some things I just don't like remembering....:}

'Casey' was the TV hero.:ok: Alan Hale played the lead in the TV series (Black & White) if I got that right....:ok::ok:

Cheers

7378FE
11th Jul 2008, 19:02
T'was Charlie Jones who called the members of the 'hallowed profession'
'Glorified Train Drivers'....wasn't it???
And reckoned that they should be paid accordingly.

Maybe he was right, pilots would be earning more $$$$ if this was the case:hmm:

Capt Claret
12th Jul 2008, 02:02
Ah Gough. There's an article in today's Australian (Sat 12th July) about his 92nd birthday celebrations.

He was quoted as commenting on Australia having a Mandarin speaking PM, and went on to say, "In the US they're looking forward to having an English-speaking President". :D

breakfastburrito
12th Jul 2008, 02:22
Oh, and Gough? After getting a good half hour from the woman while he was trying to talk about putting sewerage in across western Sydney, Gough drew himself up, turned to our questioner and said:
"In respect to abortion madam? Well, in your case I'd make it retrospective!"
Workers Online (http://workers.labor.net.au/295/print_index.html)

toolowtoofast
12th Jul 2008, 03:01
a fast train would be perfect between auckland and, well, NOWHERE!

Howard Hughes
12th Jul 2008, 05:35
What matters to BA, therefore, is its ability to capture wealthy people who want to fly to America, Asia and Africa.Apparently wealthy people do not wish to travel to Oz!:{

Australia's geography lends itself to a multitude of fast trains, problem is at the moment most train journeys cost six times as much as the comparitive air fare!:eek:

Surely a very fast CB to SY service, city to city, would beat the air alternative by around an hour!:rolleyes:

Tmbstory
12th Jul 2008, 07:20
Howard Hughes.

Fast Trains in Australia, I don't believe it !! Expensive yes.
It is long overdue.


Tmb

Carrier
12th Jul 2008, 21:10
Quote: "What matters to BA, therefore, is its ability to capture wealthy people who want to fly to America, Asia and Africa."

If they are genuinely wealthy they will travel by private aircraft - Bizjets, either their own, their company's or chartered - and will certainly not use any of the major airlines' airborne version of a Greyhound bus! This also enables them to use friendlier and more conveniently located smaller airports and bypass such obnoxious places as Heathrow and the airport formerly known in the BC (Before Chaos) era as Jan Smuts International.

Pera
13th Jul 2008, 01:01
Surely a very fast CB to SY service, city to city, would beat the air alternative by around an hour!

And be nicer than a dash8.

and if there was a fast train from sydney CBD to melbourne CBD, i'd take that everytime.

Trojan1981
13th Jul 2008, 01:19
The track infrustructure is the limiting factor at the moment. The current train journey from Sydney Central to Canberra takes about 4.5 hours on countylink (when there is no trackwork/derailments/delayed frighters). The NSW govt has let the infrustructure slowly fall to peices over the last 25 odd years. New tracks, signals, overhead power and electrical systems will need to be built to support such a project.

I am told Cityrail has trouble operating the Millenium trains in certain parts of Sydney due to the amount of power they draw from local suppies so I assume the effect in regional areas would be even more pronounced.

It will probably happen eventually, but not any time soon.

altonacrude
17th Jul 2008, 10:05
T'was Charlie Jones who called the members of the 'hallowed profession'
'Glorified Train Drivers'....wasn't it???
And reckoned that they should be paid accordingly.:{Sydney's Cityrail has 21-month training courses to train new recruits as train drivers and trainees are paid full (although modest) wages during that period. When they graduate they are assigned on a 38 hours/week roster, but it is claimed that they only spend around 15.5 hours of that (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2005/06/22/1398413.htm) driving trains. (I have no idea what they do the rest of the time.)

Those trains must be mighty complicated and challenging to drive. :=

The culture of government-owned transport systems seems generally stuck in the 19th century, which is why they are inefficient and one of the reasons why governments have been unwilling to tip more investment into them than absolutely necessary. At heart, it is an industrial problem.

A cautionary tale: some years ago the Sydney ferry service bought some hydrofoil ferries. They were rather a flop as they kept breaking down and were finally disposed of. This appears to be no fault of the vessels, but attributable to the fact that they were made by Boeing and powered with gas turbine engines. The guys who maintained the ferry fleet had been trained to work on slow speed marine diesel engines; their skills were not readily transferable to gas turbines.

Hugh Jarse
17th Jul 2008, 11:01
A cautionary tale: some years ago the Sydney ferry service bought some hydrofoil ferries. They were rather a flop as they kept breaking down and were finally disposed of. This appears to be no fault of the vessels, but attributable to the fact that they were made by Boeing and powered with gas turbine engines. The guys who maintained the ferry fleet had been trained to work on slow speed marine diesel engines; their skills were not readily transferable to gas turbines.
Not quite correct. Most were built in Italy, and were powered by twin V16 diesels ;) No gas turbines to my knowledge, but I guess that would make it a thin link to aeroplanes....

However, they were in service for 26 years.

I do agree they were notoriously unreliable.:E More related to government at the time changing the design (against the manufacturer's advice).

Mr. Hat
17th Jul 2008, 11:28
altonacrude, what do they get paid? - id love to hand back my bars and ask for them to be placed where the sun dont shine...

Buster Hyman
17th Jul 2008, 13:08
Well, the Paragons of virtue that are running Victoria are finally waking up to the fact that it would be a jolly nice idea to have the same guague track on the MEL-SYD line as those mighty quick NSW trains use.

If they get the tracks right and the rolling stock right, and everything else right...then maybe, just maybe, we could se some serious competition to air travel. If you think this is too simple to screw up, research the Regional Fast Rail project in Victoria!:ugh:

Flight Detent
18th Jul 2008, 03:04
Would you really ride in a train thats doing a VERY fast speed, with only one guy 'driving' it, and no way of stopping inside 2 miles, and no way to maneuver it at all!

No way Jose!

I love TCAS!

See you there!!

bushy
18th Jul 2008, 07:14
Go for a ride on the TGV in France.

18-Wheeler
18th Jul 2008, 14:27
Stop mucking around and build a decent maglev trail from Brisbane to Sydney to Melbourne - I went for a ride in the one in Shanghai a while back. It's still throttled-back from what it can really do, but is still very fast.

http://www.billzilla.org/shanghaispeed.jpg

:)