Half of the Armed Forces considering quitting!

[minigundiplomat]

Only Half?

[ZH875]

The other half have already PVR'd (or whatever JPA calls it).

[minigundiplomat]

RAF morale was lowest, with 72% describing morale as poor or very poor. Don't think Torps will be getting a job as a motivational speaker when he goes!

[dallas]

P1ss takes apart, I was surprised about this figure for two reasons:

Firstly, if you give a cross section of servicemen a survey, many presume the results might be used to change/improve things, so if they're asked "are you paid enough?" they'll generally reply "no" in a vain attempt to influence a pay rise. In the same way, some think that by voicing their plans to exit this will prompt bosses of various levels to panic and instantly try and resolve whatever grievances are the flavour of the day. To some degree this used to be true 15+ years ago, but now in more cases than not the bosses are either primarily focussed on their own career or, like their blokes, looking at the exit for the same reasons. So I'm surprised the figure is only 50ish%.

Secondly, when I first joined people occasionally put their notice in/PVRd and even discussing a future post-Service was viewed as most disloyal. Today most people openly talk about looking forward to their next option point, and the remainder tend to be junior ranks who haven't thought too hard about the future yet, ambitious officers who are often transfixed by getting as high as they can before pension point, or a handful of 'lifers' who genuinely enjoy the job/life or are stuck because of BSA etc. But that's still only about 10-20% of people I know.

< half doesn't seem to represent the mood.

[minigundiplomat]

Found this on a website dealing with JPA.....

I am an RAF senior officer in Afghanistan. Until arriving in Kabul I was spending at least an hour per day trying to track down the £7,000+ owed. As I have no access to JPA here I would have to get a close protection team to take me to check my pay chit. If they are screwing me around as an experienced Group Captain, what are they doing to the younger, less financially stable lads and lasses?
Anon

JPA is a malfunctioning, user-unfriendly nightmare and has contributed more to a serious drop in morale than anything in the past 20 years.
SPD

Connected?

[Postman Plod]

Nononono and NO again! Morale is not low! It can't be, the MoD spokesman said it wasn't, and was all getting better and you have loads of new kit, loads of money being spent on housing, and its all fantastic! Overstretch, god no! What does Sir Jock know about military capability?? Dont ya know the politicians are the experts in everything??

:yuk:

[Beatriz Fontana]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!

Sorry, now my sides ache.

And I can't look at the screen for crying.

Half... I ask ya...

[CirrusF]

I thought that the results of that survey were actually very good. If you did a similar survey in any other large organisation, I suspect you would not get better results, and quite probably worse results. It is human nature to continually look around for a better situation and life for ourselves and family, so we always think there is greener grass elsewhere, that we are undervalued and underpaid in our current job, and that we would be happier elsewhere.

I thought that the greatest interest in the results was the comparitive difference between the services, and between officers and enlisted men. Given that the army are taking the bulk of the casualties, and are arguably bearing the bulk of the overstretch it was a surprise to see that their morale is higher than the other services, according to the survey. I think the biggest concern for defence chiefs should be the large and consistent gap in all three services between officers and enlisted.

[dallas]

Given that the army are taking the bulk of the casualties, and are arguably bearing the bulk of the overstretch it was a surprise to see that their morale is higher than the other services, according to the survey
Although isn't there an argument that the wars are allowing them the opportunity to get on and do what they joined to do - fight people with guns? I think overstretch features to some degree in people leaving, but it's a multi-faceted thing with not necessarily the expected causes. I would suggest people have a Pick n'Mix approach to their reasons - some fair, others unreasonable and overstretch isn't necessarily an issue everywhere.

[Hammer Head Too]

Dallas raises a very good (and pertinent) point. Earlier in my career the discussions were always Mess based. No way would an officer discuss such things with ORs, just not done. Same with SNCOs.....

Now it's open warfare and the powers to be must know, surely :ugh:

I hear senior officers talking of their frustrations and desire to leave with whoever wants to discuss it.

I know it's been asked before but what are the current PVR rates compared to 2 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago.

Is the rumour true that PMA are phoning up PVR applicants to "chat" about their reasons. When I left in 2005 I saw and spoke to no-one...

HH2

[nigegilb]

Hilarious post from Cirrus F who thinks the results of the survey were good.

One thing will alter retention rates, that is the looming recession. Unless MoD take the opportunity to reduce commitments it will only provide a brief respite in what appears to be a mass rejection of the current state of affairs.

[Beatriz Fontana]

Unless MoD take the opportunity to reduce commitments

It's our beloved government that tells us where to go.... we just need some seniors big enough to say no and a government bold enough to admit that a war on two fronts is pulling the Armed Forces apart.

Wake me up when you see a pig fly over.

[dallas]

I know it's been asked before but what are the current PVR rates compared to 2 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago.

Is the rumour true that PMA are phoning up PVR applicants to "chat" about their reasons. When I left in 2005 I saw and spoke to no-one...
Seemingly the PVR rates are only slightly higher than normal, but the number of people not signing-on and leaving at their next option point has rocketed - hence the recent subliminally desperate e-mail 'allowing' people to extend by 2-3 years after their option - as if that was some sort of generous concession! I don't have figures on PVR/options, but some senior adminner apparently said this at a briefing not long ago.

As for the 'what can we do to make you stay' phonecall, it seems that may very well be true, on the basis of at least 3 unrelated people telling me so. They're allegedly offering postings, promotions etc. The latter offer does raise some questions about the legitimacy of bypassing promotion boards though: "Sorry keen bloke who's staying, you're not going to be promoted this year as we've done a deal with a bloke who's pissed off and leaving. Oh and he's now going to be your boss." If it's true it's an exceptionally crap and shortsighted plan...which somehow makes it more likely.

[NUFC1892]

Given that PVR rates have remained pretty static as a % of the Service population for God knows how many years (and, despite horror stories to the contrary they have) the actual number PVR'ing has dropped by approx 50% since 1990 - so why is this?

1. People are generally more content now that 20 years ago?:=

2. The economy is worse now than 20 years ago?:=

3. You can interpret any statistic any way you like to get the answer you were searching for?:D

[CirrusF]

3. You can interpret any statistic any way you like to get the answer you were searching for?:D


Yes, to an extent.

This survey will become very valuable if repeated consistently every year, so that trends can be examined. As a one-off, it is difficult to draw a conclusion about the overall morale of the armed services (though I stand by my earlier statement that I think the results would be shown to be surprisingly good if a similar survey was done in a similar large organistion - BA for example).

Where conclusions can immediately be drawn is in the differences between the three services (which could be considered directly comparable), and in the consistently large differences between officers and enlisted men. Those are the two areas that should be addressed by defence chiefs.

[Yeller_Gait]

NUFC,

Ok I will bite, it has been a long day ....


Given that PVR rates have remained pretty static as a % of the Service population for God knows how many years (and, despite horror stories to the contrary they have) the actual number PVR'ing has dropped by approx 50% since 1990 - so why is this?
Assuming an RAF of 92000 in 1990, and a current strength of 40000 today, a reduction of 58%, then if the actual number of people PVR'ing has reduced by 50%, this would indicate an increase in the PVR rate of 12.5%.

Y_G

[parabellum]

In peacetime the three essential to maintain moral are:
1. Food, 2. Mail and 3 Pay, (In any given order), secondary considerations are accommodation, time away from home etc.

In time of conflict all of the above as well as:
1.Equipment, 2. Ammunition and 3. Adequate protection for the job.

Doesn't look as though the current bunch have been able to focus on any of the basic requirements.:(

[FFP]

2. Mail

Mail ? In peacetime ? You kidding me right ?

Where the hell did that one come from ?

[parabellum]

When I did my twelve month unaccompanied tour mail was quite important, no 'phones, no fax, no internet etc. this was the 'sixties. You must be quite young.;)

[Roland Pulfrew]

Mail down the Falklands is always important, despite phone and e-mail!! So you don't have to be too old!

[TonkaEngO]

PVR phone calls

Manning are ringing people up and asking if a change of location/employment would get them to change their mind - fact. However, offering promotion - I think not.
I believe that this is a good move, notwithstanding the reasons that have caused it, if we can keep good guys/girls in by a move to another stn or a change of job then why not do it.

I can only speak for TG1 but the PVR figures for 07/08 are not significantly different to historic norms.

[spheroid]

Exactly - When you are deployed at sea for months on end then mail is V high on the morale stakes. Phones calls are ok but 10 minutes a week is a bit tight.

[Wrathmonk]

I believe PVR rate is a complete red herring. If you want to see the real exit rates from the Armed Forces have a look at how many are leaving at a break point/optional retirement date i.e those who are turning down an offer of extension to service (inc the promotion that goes with it). Don't think they track those stats and if they did they certainly wouldn't quote them (the grapevine suggests 95+% of pilots are leaving at their 38/16 point ....)

And of course the quoted figures, particularly those that state all is well because we are 90-odd% manned, fail to reflect experience levels. Do people really believe a fully qualified pilot/technician leaving after 20 odd years and umpteen operational tours can be replaced in anything other than numerical terms by a FNG/sprog? Manning balance perhaps, but certainly not experience balance.

[spheroid]

What is the point of the 38/16 break point? Is it to allow people to stay in......or for people to leave....?

[skaterboi]

Good post Wrathmonk. It would be simple to find out who's staying and who's going though - you just have to look at the pension stats to see who transferred to the new scheme and that's your answer!

I have considered quitting very seriously but will 99% stay until my 16/38 point now for the hours and the pension. However, I have no intention of staying in past it. It is with quite a bit of sadness that I've arrived at this decision because I naively thought I'd stay until 55 when I finished IOT 10 years ago.

But the simple fact is the RAF fails to look after it's people and with the woeful investment and leadership from on high I see no alternative. My fleet is dying a rapid death and along with the other legacy fleets we have, coupled with delays for new ac and the impending move to Brize, I don't the future is that rosy from where I'm standing.

[minigundiplomat]

OK, lets have a few serving guys putting their cards on the table. Staying, PVRing or leaving at next IPP etc?

Im going at IPP within 2 years.

[N_1]

Leaving at IPP in one year. No posting or cash incentive would change my mind.

N_1

[CirrusF]

In Blighty PLC we now have a very flexible workforce of which HM Forces can be included, industries come and go, some stay around, some boom some bust - funny old thing your average young serviceman can re-train and get a job fairly successfully, on average in Blighty PLC/Village in the flexible market.


Very good post, Nostrinian. And I think that to take your thoughts further, and combine it with the recent Strategic Review of UK Reserve Forces, there is a case for encouraging even closer assimilation between civilian/reserves/military UK assets. Not only would it be healthy for democracy as a whole in the UK, but I think that the military could benefit if it were easier for servicemen to leave, get a taste of civvy life, realise it is not always that cushy, and rejoin, and arguably it would benefit the military if it were easier for some late-entry reserves/civvies to join the military ab-initio at a later cut off age than the current limits. Economic history shows again and again that no profession or industry benefits from a closed shop and restricted labour mobility.

[The Dodger]

PVR phone calls

Manning are ringing people up and asking if a change of location/employment would get them to change their mind - fact. However, offering promotion - I think not.
I believe that this is a good move, notwithstanding the reasons that have caused it, if we can keep good guys/girls in by a move to another stn or a change of job then why not do it.

I can only speak for TG1 but the PVR figures for 07/08 are not significantly different to historic norms.


I am out of the service now, however the above actions by ACOS could have persuaded me to think again before I put in my PVR, notice. I seem to recall ACOS manning's mission statement. One part of it contained the words, to effictivly manage careers. If they had done that from the very start, I think we would not be seeing half the problems we are seeing today. It's a sad state of affairs but who is to blame for all of this? You can only push people so far before they vote with there feet.:(

[KeepItTidy]

Wrathmonk has it 100% spot on , the talk where I am and a fast jet base just 6 miles across the road seems that most TG1 will not extend beyond there current engagement ( I would harbour a guess at 90%) although that may be exagerated but asking the 40 odd lads in crewroom only 4 wished to stay in at present. We worked it out and within our place of work within 3 years we are due to loose a lot of people , I mean a lot of people that will make our fleet unsustainable, just as well they are out of service by 2010. These are the facts and figures the thousands of officers in the Air Force are supposed to be keeping track off and adjusting things to ensure continuity , but I think this time the officer core have really screwed over the RAF this time , its not the taliban that has brought the Air Force to its knees in its 90th year , its the Airships that run it. Fact !!
For years people have said and said yet nobody listened and now look where we are , it really is the end , there is no way back from this.

[dallas]

OK, lets have a few serving guys putting their cards on the table. Staying, PVRing or leaving at next IPP etc?
Took LOS30 because it was there, but have since put my notice in just past my 22 year point. Lots of reasons, but not necessarily the tabloid/headline ones.

[Wrathmonk]

And another indicator - try booking onto any of the useful resettlement courses at Aldershot. Applications outstripping availability - my advice (from experience!) is once you have made the decision to go, and you are eligible to attend resettlement training, get your applications in.

PS - edit for MGD. <200 days, leaving at break point.

[Birdbath]

I was one of those who said they were intending to leave at an option point (22/44). However, there is a recession on the way and despite the frustrations I have a garanteed job till 55 and if things improve I can give 12 months notice and pocket my pension (unlike those who transferred). Exit rates have been increasing but I bet they will start reducing once the job market drys up.

[StopStart]

39yr old PAS staying on thanks very much. Enjoy the job and not really that fussed about going away on det/ex lots. Get to do cool stuff with big military planes and not particularly interested in doing dull stuff with big civvy planes.

:ok:

[KeepItTidy]

Yep the recession we been told so many stories it will last 6-7 years to it wont affect us too much, nobody can predict what will happen and if you have a family a mortgage then signing in and staying in is the best option , me personally have given many years and my next exit point I will leave , no matter what money and promotions are thrown at me I need a change , I will have given 22 years of my life to the military and dont regret. I just wish I could give more but I dont see leadership or anything , i just see a void and really cannot see how it can be made good. Even if I was made up to a SNCO or above, I know 1 person cannot make a difference in a force run by monkeys. Slay the chimps at the top starting with the quiet one erm whats his name chimp torpy , bring back Dannet and give him the job as he is somebody I could fight for as he fights for us. He got shafted big time for being honest . That says so much for the military today.

Rant over

[Combat Cookie]

Totally agree with Keep It Tidy said. I am out this month with 14 years service, and although I may seem like a sprog compared to some others, most of the reason I decided to PVR seem to have been in what has been written. I have felt more and more disalussioned with the service, not because of the job or the guys I worked with, but because the people at the top that could make a noise at the top about the way we get treated either choose not to, or wait till they are out and then decide to open thier mouths on TV in a Lecture/ Sunday morning programme or shock horror an autobiography. I just wish that people who could make a difference ie Gordan Brown and Co and the MOD would wake up and see that they need to value what and who we are and look after us better in every aspect of service lives. Im sure the MOD's announcement that they are paying out 3 million pounds compensation to certain foreign individuals will be of great comfort to those individuals and thier families who have been injured or have paid a higher price! :ugh:Well it will bolster the PVR line in PSF at any rate.

[Combat Cookie]

Sorry about that:rolleyes: , I thought that people reading this would be more interested in the meat of the text rather than picking up things in my comments that are not 100% perfect. Im sure that the majority are intelligent enough to know what I meant.

[Combat Cookie]

No im not.The only time I can navigate is when ive got a voice telling me which way on the sat nav!:) My line of work trust me you need a sense of humour.The name may give you a clue. Is pooh that PVR /Terminate Service rates are as high as they are but that just seems to be the way it is, and unfortunately I dont think it will get any better. I have seen some really good guys in my trade get passed over for promotion and some real choppers get thier tapes, which Im sure happens in all trades, and its a shame that this happens but I dont see it changing. And I dont think that the uncertainty of getting a job/ house on the outside will prevent people taking that final step, maybe delay them but in the long run I think that the outcome will be the same.:ok:

[KeepItTidy]

Well I like them words Combat Cookie and Im on same level pal , I love the service , all my time in up to the last few years its just gone really downhill, why what how there are many reasons we have all gone into , what now , how can it be reversed. That is the only question now are there enough commited troops within the service now to help make a change , Im sure there is many out there that can make sweeping changes but unless give comes from the Officers the air force at least will get run by people who really have no idea whats its like to be at the bottom, this is the biggest hurdle, how does a new officer understand what its like to be an LAC,he doesnt , he just ignores. Root of the problem solved , all LACs should be made to officer :ok:

**** it im fed up trying to help

[KeepItTidy]

Erm I should stay of the beer :/

Beadwindow

.................................... KIT exits stage left

[Combat Cookie]

"Nobody likes a whinger. Man up or ship out, but stop moaning like an old fish wife."


Clearly empathy is something you lack unlike sarcastic comments. My original post was that I agreed with a comment from a previous post and I will stick to my earlier points rather that entering into a namecalling nasty post which is something you have seen fit to do. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I was merely posting a reply to say that I can agree with a lot of the comments in this thread as alot of them have mirrored the thourghts that have been felt by myself and many others and will continue to do so in the future. :)

[KeepItTidy]

I think AIDU is a typical Officer happy in his 50K a year job with a Tuesday to Thursday Job with no OOA trips and decides which tent the Forces will deploy in 2009 , the Mk8 of Mk 9 mmmmm what a choice

Fair play of you can get away with it crack on but the days are numbered.

I might be wrong though :ok:

[cazatou]

"Fair play of you can get away with it crack on but the days are numbered."

Is this some form of convoluted anagram?

[Kengineer-130]

I have been in the RAF just over 9 years, signed on to 12, and a few years ago I would have quite happily stayed to 22+ as it was a great job, work with top people and used to be a work hard play hard attitude amongst everyone.

I am now 99% leaving at my 12 year point as I cannot see a future in the job, as it is now work hard work hard, most of the rewards and enjoyment have gone, peoples welfare is seriously under-valued, and generally I feel the RAF does just not care for its people any more. The Infrastructure at the secret wilshire airbase I work at is crumbling around us, the spares for the mighty 'K' are like gold dust, and everything is set up to hinder us generating serviceable aircraft....

It is shocking how many people are leaving at a carreer break point, PVR's have increased and even people who are RAF through and through have handed thier notice in :sad:...I would say a least 80% of people on our shift are going at the next oppertunity.

All I can think of is what can the RAF offer to keep me in?

If I do the same job outside as I do now, I will get better pay ( almost double+ o/t) , better conditions, modern and reliable kit, accomodation that is fit for human occupation etc etc...

A sad state of affairs indeed, and it is not just TG1/2 that share this view, most people you speak to across the trades are planning on leaving at thier next break point.

[NURSE]

Why is this news at any 1 time if you listen to juniors they are all leaving.
And if you look at the number of questioneers given out compared to those returned its not exactly an accurate survey. Saying it and ticking the box is one thing actually going is another and since most service persnell have some inteligence most will realise that civvy street at the minite isn't that appealing.

[Hubstrasse]

20yrs under the flag, enjoyed 99.9% (well...96%) of it but... when I asked what the reward would be for accepting a 3yr extension ... Yup......... Zilch.. couldn't find any more hoops to jump through so politely declined with long explanation to deskie. Imagine my surprise when less than 2 yrs later a 6 yr offer!! tried to telephone HQ not listening Command but told to press apropriate JPA button. Says it all... not so much as a (are you sure? please, let's talk) just a flash of the screen and up yours! Cheeky buggers didn't stop an allowance after I left and want it back! still the odd sixpence must come in handy for old Gord and his mates.

[cazatou]

Interestingly, the MSN web page today shows the results of a "survey" carried out amongst Military Personnel.

"In the Army nearly three-fifths of those questioned rated the level of morale as "low" or "very low". In the RN it was 64% and the RM 38%. The worst level was in the RAF, where nearly three quarters responded that morale was low"

There is, however, no indication of the number of people who took part in this "survey"; nor does it indicate exactly what questions were asked. Note that the Army, RN and RM appear to have personnel responding with "very low" whereas "very low" is not mentioned in respect of the RAF.

What can be said is that it would appear that more than half of those questioned across the full spectrum of the Armed Forces stated that the majority of serving personnel believe that morale is a major issue in the Armed Forces.

[minigundiplomat]

All the points you mention were covered in more detail by the Daily Torygraph and others. MSN seems to have just bullet pointed the headline points.

[Biggus]

Rather than guess/summarise what is in the report - why not just read it....

Ministry of Defence | Freedom of Information | Publication Scheme | Search Publication Scheme | Results for Armed Forces Continuous Attitude Survey (CAS) 2007 (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/PublicationScheme/SearchPublicationScheme/ResultsForArmedForcesContinuousAttitudeSurveycas2007.htm)

Google is your friend - took all of 5 seconds....

[cazatou]

mgd

Today is Sunday. French Supermarkets are not open:-therefore no English papers. Tomorrow is "Bastille Day" - French Supermarkets are not open etc etc.

[Jayand]

I guarantee that no matter what any survey says their are far more than half thinking about leaving!
True many of those thinking about it will never do anything more than just think, but a significant number have and a many more will in the future.
I foresee a huge problem in a few years, and I can't believe the powers that be haven't (or maybe have but just ignore), lots of people are waiting for their option point, with the certain knowledge that when it comes they are off, lots are willing to PVR and have and will continue to do so.
Imagine a few years down the line recruitment is struggling, lots have pvr'd and many are on the verge of or have taken their option, where does that leave the service? fecked, the numbers will be dangerously low, the experience will all be leaving or left and lots of those left will be equally fed up but can't afford to leave.
Result one very poor Service that is caught in a catch 22 on a downward spiral, the way out? I don't know but even more worrying is the fact that Ministers, Airships etc don't have a clue either and for far too many years have ignored the glaring warning signs.
Good luck to those staying in, see you in a little while to the rest.

[minigundiplomat]

Today is Sunday. French Supermarkets are not open:-therefore no English papers. Tomorrow is "Bastille Day" - French Supermarkets are not open etc etc


Who's fault is that?


C'est l'guerre!

[Madbob]

IMHO there is little to commend the armed forces to any school-leavers, apart from those that like a shiny uniform!

My grandfather was in the army, my father and uncle were both in the RAF and I am ex-RAF but there is no way that I would want my two sons to join up.

Why is this? Firstly, whilst there is a genuine threat to the future security and long-term prosperity of the UK and the current armed forces are doing an excellent job:ok:, the political lords and masters we have do not properly value or understand the military covenant that has existed in the past. The "rot" started many years ago with the progressive civillianisation of the armed forces begining with MT drivers, cooks, storemen, stewards etc. and this now extends to so-called second line activities such as flying training, SAR etc.

The effect of this means that the front line are always over-stretched and there is less opportunity for people to rotate through the operational/non-operational postings that there used to be.

Secondly, the "good" postings such as RAFG, Cyprus, Malta, Gib, Hong Kong have virtually all gone and the lure of these often made one accept a "poor" posting as a temporary set back, which would be forgotten when the next posting was a "plumb".....

Thirdly, the culture has changed. The military hospitals which looked after both service personnel and their families have gone. Now they have to take their chances and queue to use the NHS.

Fourthly, the married quarters real estate has been sold off. Rents have risen whilst the standard of accommodation has decreased and because of base closures those that remain have been expanded but without additional housing.....result is either a long commute or accept something sub-standard.

Fifthly, JPA has removed the chance of a friendly visit to SHQ to sort out pay, allowances, leave etc. instead you become an anonymous entity for which no one is willing to put themselves out for or take responsibility for getting to the bottom of a problem.

Finally, there is the over-stretch. Whilst I never minded hard work when hard work was needed I did like to think that when the "harvest" was home the "farm" could go back to its usual routine. Now the "harvest time" is endless and the establishment has shrunk instead of having been expanded.

I know it's a vicious spiral but if out political lords and masters want the UK to be a "player" on the world stage in the UN, G8, NATO etc. then it needs to put more taxpayer's money into the military. 4-5% of GDP is not unsustainable or unreasonable; we did it in the past when the UK was a lot poorer than we are today. In 1937, 38 and 39 we set the wheels in motion to re-arm "just in time" when numerous stations like Debden, Wattisham, Wittering, Scampton, Coltishall, Mildenhall, were planned and built and aircraft (and warships) ordered.

I left in 1989 in the "options for change" era following the end of the Cold War. When I joined the RAF was over 117,000, ten years leter it was about 87,000 now it is under 50,000 (excluding "civillianised" staff, such as SERCO, Babcock, Airwork etc.) but the trend of getting smaller and smaller is not sustainable. Keeep going and there won't be anything left!

Just my 2p worth, made worse I suspect by a visit to IWM at Duxford yesterday. Gone forever are the Lightnings, Buccaneers, Jags, Hunters, Phantoms,Canberras, Vulcans etc. that I can remember in the front line; not to mention the Pembrokes, Devons, Argosies, Andovers, and other transports like the Belfast and Britannia. I suspect it will soon be the Tornado's 30th birthday - 2010 perhaps? I only hope that the wings stay on that long!

On a seperate note I wonder just how many days are spent "at sea" (rather than tied up in port) by the average frigate or destroyer. Can't be much fun to be in the navy either unless you're S/Lt Wales in the sunny Caribbean!!

MB

MB

[KeepItTidy]

bang on Madbob , perfect words you just excluded the RAF is run by overpaid chimps who dont care about anyone else just there ego and pensions and the fact they can lick AIR ranks ass.

I wanted to say more but I have problem of not being able to speak english when I have drunk my many ciders as all I can do these days is drink a lot and think about the last 18 odd years I have done serving all over, yes boo hoo sympathy not.... I dont expect but its the ones who lead I feel more and more anger too these days. There failure to set it right to say we need more guys , to say we need more equipment etc etc etc for years these questions have been pushed to upper echolons yet nothing has been done.

[Pontius Navigator]

I think AIDU is a typical Officer happy in his 50K a year job

Actually I think he was a 3-prop blade Rock. Came across quite well earlier on and is also into spotting but he seems to have taken a bitter pill. Don't know what he says though. Ignore button works a treat. :)

[BEagle]

From another thread (moderator's statement):

AIDU has been given a well earned rest rocket!

madbob - what a very perceptive post.

When I joined, in the UK alone, the RAF still flew at ALL of the following aerodromes:

Abingdon
Acklington
Andover
Aston Down
Ballykelly
Bassingbourn
Bentwaters
Bicester
Biggin Hill
Binbrook
Bovingdon
Brawdy
Chivenor
Church Fenton
Cranwell North
Driffield
Elvington
Finningley
Fulbeck
Gaydon
Gravely
Greenham Common
Hamble
Honington
Hullavington
Kemble
Leconfield
Lindholme
Little Rissington
Manby
Newton
North Luffenham
North Weald
Oakington
Ouston
Pershore
Scampton
Spitalgate
St Davids
Stradishall
Strubby
Swinderby
Syerston
Tangmere
Ternhill
Thorney Island
Waterbeach
Wattisham
Watton
West Malling
West Raynham
White Waltham

Even when all these were still active, the old hands bemoaned what they considered to be the 'small' RAF of the time (1968).

[Gainesy]

...and there were very few civvies on any base, just the odd steward,:uhoh: batman, washers up and a few typists (usually wives of Servicemen) and storemen. Everything else was an RAF/WRAF job.

When did the rot start? Maybe the maxiblob concept of Strike Command?

[cazatou]

When did the rot start?

It started when the separate Service Ministries were almalgamated into one "Ministry of Defence" with just one Cabinet level Minister. In WW2 Churchill was "Minister of Defence" and the three Services each had a Cabinet level Minister to fight their Service's corner.

Today the Armed Forces do not even have a "Full Time" Minister to fight their corner.

[Shack37]

Beagle

You missed out St. Mawgan and Kinloss to mention just a few. Possibly some others as well.
T'was good then.
s37

[TonkaEngO]

I think the old boy was listing ones we no longer have

[The Helpful Stacker]

Half of the Armed Forces considering quitting!

I think perhaps the title should really be "Half of the Armed Forces consider quitting but very few have the courage of their convictions".

Its amazing how when the reality of life outside of the wire begins to become apparent these whingers don't shut up whinging but also don't do anything about it. The lure of monthly beer tokens and being able to turn up for work on Friday morning half-cut rather than a wage, having to budget your life and the prospect of being sacked if you turn up for work still p!ssed must be quite strong.

I left last year, I had filled one of these attitude surveys in as honestly as I could and even though I'm subject to a few years of reserve service wild horses couldn't drag me back into the mob unless there was a real and direct threat to the nation.

[dallas]

I think perhaps the title should really be "Half of the Armed Forces consider quitting but very few have the courage of their convictions".
I'm not sure Stacker, I think this time it's different. You're right that some will lose their nerve when it comes to practical exit measures, but I still feel that there's a groundswell of people fed-up enough to go no matter what. In my working environment you're maybe talking 30-40% who have firm plans to go - all at differing stages of course, which makes it hard to quantify - and, alarmist stories apart, there must be 60%+ who have voiced dissatisfaction with their lot. Those with plans to stay ad infinitum are certainly in the minority, while even a couple of them are faltering as they have to shoulder more of the workload.

[BEagle]

Shack37, yes, as the TonkaBEngO stated, I was referring to places where the RAF flew then but no longer does so.....:(

[TonkaEngO]

Like it B - life in the old dog yet eh!

[Madbob]

BEagle, you could I think add St. Eval and perhaps Jutby and Weston Zoyland and that elcludes the now shut RNAS airfields, Ford being one.....

It is really quite sobering to see how the once great UK armed forces have shrunk over the last 30 ish years......what will be left in 2038?:bored:

MB

[BEagle]

No, St. Eval closed in 1959 which was long before even I joined the mob. Weston Zoyland I remember well as a lad (particularly all the wrecked aircraft in the crash compound), but it closed in 1958. Jurby? Used to bomb the sea targets when I flew Vulcans, but the station itself closed to military flying in 1947 although it was used now and again by civil aircraft after the IoM government bought it in 1964.

My list was just the RAF aerodromes and didn't include fine FAA stations such as Ford etc!

[Op_Twenty]

BEagle, you seem to have done a few years - what's your opinion of life in the Service at the moment. Would you still recommend to a son or daughter? I think a lot of these chaps are correct to say that morale is very low with little faith in command. I'm in my tenth year and will probably leave early at 12 years. I am apprehensious of civvie life but, short of being in the field in Afghanistan or Iraq, I don't see many more challenges in my flying career. I told my flight commander that I had no real idea of what I wanted to do next - an exchange tour is all that remotely interests me. That might sound harsh to a lot of chaps on here but I flew just short of 900 hrs on my first tour (the equivalent to 3 tours back in the day apparently), 2 tours over Iraq and every flag ex & euro equivalent you can shake a small stick at. To return to the front line means I do it all again - albeit teaching the younger guys which is exactly what I do now. I am disenchanted with the Service, especially at Command level, but am still happy to go to work at the moment - in 2 years time, I know that I won't be. I'm interested in your opinion if that's not too much trouble - thanks.

[BEagle]

Op_Twenty, I left in 2003 when I saw no end to the deteriorating state we were in at the time.

But I wouldn't presume to give an opinion on the actual state of things today.

However, if I had the chance to join the RAF of 1968 again, I would. As I would the RAF of 1978 or 1988.

But not the RAF of 1994 or later.

[spheroid]

Im surprised that it is just 50%. Surely we all consider our options on a regular basis. I regularly consider my options and so far have alwasy thought that this is too much fun than working for a living. The minute the fun stops then I'm off.

[spheroid]

Exactly.........................























........................Whats a desk?

[Op_Twenty]

Always keeping options open, it's what we all do - thanks BEagle

[FFP]

When I did my twelve month unaccompanied tour mail was quite important, no 'phones, no fax, no internet etc. this was the 'sixties. You must be quite young.

Well I'm young enough not to quote a "sixties" reason as one of the most important factors in today's military.

I'm sure the supply of parchment and quill was important at some time, but it's of little interest to today's deployers :E

As for being at sea, could it be the frequent deployments and longer periods away that are the real problem ? If we gave you mail everyday, I assume people would be happy to stay at sea indefinitely then, seeing as that's the second most important thing apparently ?

This is when 99.9% of those serving get screwed, when one big wig listens to some idiot that quotes "mail" as the second most important issue, and then all the money gets spent on getting the mail there 1 day earlier, by which time you've spoken to the missus and kids who've told you everything in the letter anyway.

Blueys ? It's now e-blueys. You must be too old and out of touch to know about them ;)

[BEagle]

Can you smell the perfume on an e-bluey?

Thought not. Soulless bloody things - like a photograph instead of a painting.

[FFP]

If you like it old school, then the Bluey system is still there.

You can't feel the warm touch of good woman on a webcam either, but it's a damn sight better than the alternatives. It's all about making the best of being detached form the home.

I'd rather a webcam, internet terminal and some phones in theatre than make mail runs the "second" most important thing to morale and I think thatmost would agree