Crew refuses to take off due to "hostile work environment"

[Mark in CA]

After an American Airlines crew arrived at the gate for their flight from MIA to LGA more than an hour late, they received boos and jeers from impatient, waiting passengers. It got so bad, the crew, citing a "hostile work environment," decided not to take off, and after two more hours and a failed attempt to find another crew, the airline canceled the flight.

MyFox New York | American Airlines Cancels Flight Due to Hostile Passengers (http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=6931485&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1)

[DeltaIndiaSierraPapa]

Good I say. It's about time that these numty yobbo pax got a bit of come-uppance. I for one am sick and tired of people thinking that a plane ticket is a license to be abusive to ground staff and aircrew. Complaining respectfully is one thing but booing and jeering is mob mentality.

[Airbubba]

Look for the 'we demand justice!' articles in the NYC media next.

I've operated that leg a few times, the pax have shall we say, a certain feeling of entitlement.

Equally, the American crews were not long ago God's Gift to Aviation and they face the next round of pay cuts and furloughs now being sugar coated by the unions.

Probably a good thing the flight was canx'ed.

[Romeo India Xray]

I support the crew 100% on this - do the same people boo, jeer and become abusive with their doctor or lawyer when they are kept waiting? I suspect not, and are we not also professionals, just like them?

[weasil]

The thing that bugs me about this story is noone is reporting why the crew was not there on time - it says they all arrived 1h45m late which says to me that they probably worked a delayed flight and got there as soon as they could or had reduced rest or something - it is very rare for an entire crew to show up that late from the overnight for no good reason. But I bet the gate just told the waiting passengers that the flight was delayed because the crew was late without telling them why. This happens all the time. I went in on a day off recently to cover a trip for another captain who's previous leg cancelled at an outstation because of the lengthy flow time to ORD would have duty timed them out. The gate agent had just told the passengers that the captain was running late and I got all kind of rude comments when I showed up as if I was somehow to blame for sleeping in too late... that's not the first time that has happened either.
The best part of the story though is that the folks eventually got to LGA but their bags went to JFK! Priceless...

:ok:

[Ignition Override]

Nice Weasil, nice.

It has often seemed odd how many gate agents gladly make vague or misleading comments about flightcrew, especially when Crew Scheduling 'up there' delayed calling somebody at home, or the managers continuously refuse to staff enough 'reserve people' at crewbases.

A last-minute switch to a larger jet can require one extra crewmember because it has over 100 or 150 seats.
How I envy those Fedex crews who can fly mostly during the daytime.

[411A]

Not to be forgotten, of course, is the fact that the APA has demanded from the company a 53% pay rise for FD crew.

One wonders....was this a possible slow-down by the crew concerned to 'teach the company a lesson?'

[Admiral346]

One wonders....was this a possible slow-down by the crew concerned to 'teach the company a lesson?'

Whatever the reason, it is not to the PAX to be booing or whatever when the crew showes up.

This is not a themepark's rollercoaster ride, nor a rockconcert or a beer tent.

It is going blasting through the stratosphere close to the speed of sound in a little tin foil, mostly filled with kerosine.

Good choice of that crew...

Nic

[ZFT]

No criticism of the crew actions. However, from a SLF prospective, it is very frustrating to be kept in the dark about any delay. An honest announcement from the gate staff would pacify just about any situation.

Unfortunately we all hear “delay due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft” or “the operating crew are delayed at security checks” so often that frustrations do build up.

Personally, I’ve never heard an operating crew booed and find it quite hard to believe this is anything but an unfortunate and rare incident.

[anartificialhorizon]

Good on the crew.

I would like to think that I too would have turned around and walked off refusing to carry this rabble.

Who the hell do they think they are?

When they (the pax) inevitably turned up (eventually) for their business meeting did their peers, colleagues or clients boo them?

Did their spouse's / kids abuse them?

That bunch of yobs deserved to have to take the train or Greyhound bus.

[green granite]

It's about time the passengers started reacting to these totally unacceptable delays. They pay your wages and hopefully make the airline a profit. It's about time they were stopped being treated like cattle and the airlines forced to pay compensation for late departures, after all it's their fault by not having sufficient spares about , both aircraft and liveware.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

As a point of clarification, anyone know whether it was the FD crew or the cabin crew that said they wouldn't fly? Or a joint call?

Sounds like it was a good call, though. Just have to read between the lines of some of those pax being interviewed........

This industry is going to hell in a hand-basket in so many ways and it's time professionals put their feet down. Well done, that Captain.

And green granite, you are precisely the type of selfish individual we don't want on our aircraft. We don't want your money. Would you verbally abuse your doctor if he kept you waiting? Verbally abuse the check-out chick in the supermarket when management put insufficient staff on and the queues stretch for miles? Abuse the bus driver when he's late following traffic jams? Tell me why aircrew should tolerate your drivel when other professionals don't! If you have a bitch, then take it up with airline management. DON'T take it out on the front-line staff trying to keep the show on the road. Disgraceful.

[Snowyflier]

"It's about time the passengers started reacting to these totally unacceptable delays. They pay your wages and hopefully make the airline a profit. It's about time they were stopped being treated like cattle and the airlines forced to pay compensation for late departures, after all it's their fault by not having sufficient spares about , both aircraft and liveware."

green granite you are right in what you say. I would question why the company could not provide a crew for the scheduled time of departure. Therein lies the true situation.

[VAFFPAX]

While I can possibly understand the pax reaction based on past experience from ground crews in the US (especially when a flight is delayed, vague announcements make it exceptionally annoying), I do not under any circumstance condone what they did.

I wouldn't want to fly a bunch of hostiles like that for a medium-range flight either. Although, it's the c/c who get it in the neck.

The vague announcements problem is not limited to US airlines though - We had the same problem on a BCN-LHR flight before, and (if you search through my past posts, you'll find my thank-you note to the crew that day) the captain was very apologetic and explained why they were delayed by an hour when everyone was strapped in and ready for departure.

Of course, flight crew can fight fire only so far, and if they get no cover at all from the ground crew, things like this riot are the result.

Good riddance to the rude b******s... it's time that passengers are also told that they can't behave like a bunch of yobs.

S.

[green granite]

And green granite, you are precisely the type of selfish individual we don't want on our aircraft. We don't want your money.

Good because I wouldn't want to fly with any airline who's staff has such an arrogant attitude. Being on time is something called customer service, a concept that might come as a shock to you and one you obviously couldn't care less about.

Would you verbally abuse your doctor if he kept you waiting? Verbally abuse the check-out chick in the supermarket when management put insufficient staff on and the queues stretch for miles? Abuse the bus driver when he's late following traffic jams? Tell me why aircrew should tolerate your drivel when other professionals don't! If you have a bitch, then take it up with airline management. DON'T take it out on the front-line staff trying to keep the show on the road. Disgraceful.

I always complain about poor and shoddy service,vociferously or otherwise, if one doesn't then things will never improve. This attitude that the customer is pond life and can be treated as such is also disgraceful.

[spinnaker]

It's about time the passengers started reacting to these totally unacceptable delays. They pay your wages and hopefully make the airline a profit. It's about time they were stopped being treated like cattle and the airlines forced to pay compensation for late departures, after all it's their fault by not having sufficient spares about , both aircraft and liveware.

Its about time passengers stopped shoving used nappies in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used sick bags in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped dropping garbage all over the cabin floor.
Its about time passengers stopped coming on board pissed.
Its about time passengers stopped abusing airline crew.
Its about time passengers took a bath.

Its about time passengers realised that their cheap fares are part funded by eroded pay and conditions of airline staff. They pay cattle truck prices, so they get a cattle truck to travel in.

How about the crew booing and jeering late passengers on board.

[squeaker]

This is all getting a bit heated! I can see both sides here, I think it unlikely that the crew turned up late without good reason, delayed inbound positioning, FTL, lots of possibilities. As for the passengers, they were obviously not kept informed, and showed their frustration, albeit inappropriately and probably aimed at the wrong people (nothing new there, poor old Cabin Crew always get it in the neck).
Were they right to refuse to operate? Unless we were there it is hard to say.
I usually find a few well chosen words of apology/explanation on the PA after boarding calms things down, and I generally ask them not to take out their frustrations on the Cabin Crew. This normally suffices, as people feel better once they know they are actually going somewhere (except for the odd gobby pillock that is too dim to understand the realities of modern air travel), but it does sound like this bunch had been wound up a treat and the mood may have been very ugly.
Don't think we know enough to condemn the crew for this decision.

[wobble2plank]

I fully understand the sentiments of the crew. Last year I operated back from Milan after arriving more than 3 hours late in the previous evening due to a technical fault at base. Upon arrival the Airport Manager was contact in order to reschedule the departing morning flight so that we could have legal minimum rest (after reducing our time at the hotel to the absolute legal minimum).

The following morning, on a remote stand with buses, the first pax through the door made a sarcastic comment about 'did you sleep well then?'. After further investigation it transpired that the flight had NOT been rescheduled, the gate staff had been told that we overslept and, with great glee, they actually informed the Pax that that was the reason for the delay.

Subsequently we refused to depart until we had briefed the passengers on the real reason for the delay and then we refused to depart until the airport manager came on to the aircraft and apologised to the passengers over the PA for misleading information. After much arguing and a thorough flick through the manuals explaining to this moron that we can't have 6 hours off then fly again with a 1 hour taxi ride each way, he made his PA.

To their credit, at that point the passengers we very understanding. The gate staff had only been doing what they were told it was ultimately the Airport Managers poor communication that caused a possibly explosive situation. If we don't stand up to these to$$ers then we only have ourselves to blame.


It's about time the passengers started reacting to these totally unacceptable delays. They pay your wages and hopefully make the airline a profit. It's about time they were stopped being treated like cattle and the airlines forced to pay compensation for late departures, after all it's their fault by not having sufficient spares about , both aircraft and liveware.

Ironically I think you will find that most flight crew agree wholeheartedly that delays are annoying and a dreadful inconvenience. We try our absolute best every day, every flight to get the flight away on time. Unfortunately this is not like the military where we can fly outside of General Air Traffic rules hence we are dependent upon a vast multitude of factors coming together. Airport space is a costly premium, just about no airline has stores on the field these days, the space is taken up with shops and terminals. Runways are at full to bursting capacities, miss your slot because the tug was late? Back of the queue for the next slot. Short of staff at Brussels? Reroute to avoid horrendous slot delays adding 30 minutes on to the flight time, arrive 35 minutes late but better that 4 hours. Should we still be publicly harangued? These factors are what we juggle EVERY DAY. Not once or twice a week or once or twice a month. So when you take umbridge at staff just remember they have seen your complaints many, many times and, whilst they may be valid to you and to us, there is little we can do about it until our creaking infrastructure is modernised. But of course we can't do that without a 15 year planning application and a war from the Green brigade.

[vanHorck]

I very strongly believe the pax anger these days is in no small portion attributable to the hiding of the management.

Pax already arrive stressed and angered at the gate simply because they travel often and have already been frustrated many time before by delays and cancellations without proper information. So they're anticipating the worst and the adrenalin already starts flowing before they are at the gate....

Then on arrival at the gate invariably the information is not available. Why not from an hour before the flight post something like:
flight is due to depart on time
or
flight is due to depart .... min late due to .........

And ensuring through an information SYSTEM that this information is honest and complete and accurate

This nonsensical approach of delaying information to the pax, then providing partial or false information all contributes to pax anger.

I strongly believe it is the bad information that pisses off pax more than the delays

[HXdave]

many years ago, myself and my wife were travelling as SLF man - lca with caledonian airlines. it was july, peak season here in the UK and everywhere was busy. at check-in we were advised that there was going to be a 12 hour delay due to the flight that the aircraft was doing before ours still had to go to greece and back again. they said day hotels would be provided, and to come back to the check in area in about 3 hours to catch the coaches to the airport. being in the travel industry, and knowing that if an aircraft was delayed then there was an obvious reason for it, i just accepted it. hey, i mean, i would rather get on a plane 12 hours late knowing that if there was any problems with it then it had been fixed, rather than getting on the plane on time and hoping for the best. unfortunately, the other passengers were not as considerate, and started screaming and shouting at the ground crew (who from recollection were not employees of the airline, only ground agents). 3 hours later we went to meet the coaches, and were told they thought they had found another aircraft for us, but wouldnt know for 45 mins. we were all given more vouchers for food and told to come back in another hour. when we went back, yes they had found another aircraft but no crew to fly it. we were all then shipped to the hotel for the rest of the day. even at the hotel bar (bearing in mind everyone on the flight was going on a package holiday) where people were starting to get 'tanked up', there was still a lot of bad mouthing of the airline, complaints and groans both to the handling agents who were there and to the hotel staff.

12 hours later, we were all eventually shipped back to manchester and finally boarded the original aircraft we were due to fly on. again, people still up in arms with the ground agents and now the cabin crew. then, the captain came on. he courtiously apologised for the delay, and said it had not been a good weekend for them either. he then went on to explain that a car / minibus carrying caledonian crew had been involved in a very serious accident whilst transferring to gatwick airport (i think) which killed from memory at least 1 crew member, if not more, and the remaining very seriously injured and this resulted in the aircraft being short of crew.

needless to say, the entire aircraft (approx 350 pax - L1011 Tristar) went into an earpiercing silence. i dont think i heard 1 single groan about the delay after that.

[puddle-jumper2]

I fully support the crew in this situation.

Pax. also need to think very carefully about the safety aspect of doing this to a crew just before they are about to take them for a flight.

Do you think their minds are going to be on the job in hand ?

Or do you think they will be thinking about what just happened to them in the terminal whilst doing their checks for departure ?

Would you boo a surgeon just before the anaesthetic kicks in ? :=

[Roy Bouchier]

Perhaps this thread is an example of why this should be restricted to professional pilots only - verified by their licence number.

[wobble2plank]

Roy,

Perhaps this thread is an example of why this should be restricted to professional pilots only - verified by their licence number.

In this case, where no reason had been given as to the cause of the delay, I think a thread like this is invaluable to all in order to get across both sides of the story. There will always be the drum beaters but most of the passengers I fly are grateful for information as ground handling staff are told not to give it out many times. The reason for this is that the airport staff do not want delays going down to them and would like to pass it on to the crew. These delay codes are collated data and used, many times, to set servicing prices at airports.

[pacplyer]

Well what do you expect from a bunch of New Yorkers!

This is the problem with big monopoly airlines. Management only seems to care about packing their golden parachute. What ever happened to the practice of VP management being forced to ride around in coach undercover? What ever happened to the practice of management having to eat the same food each day that they put on the airplane?

The result you get with no adult supervision is vindictive ground staff, who daily deal with pax anger, are unaccountable to anyone, and knowingly lie to everybody about everything all the time.

Gawd, What a dishonest industry! The system is broken! We need to first break up the oil companies and then break up these monster mediocre empires on the ground, starting with security and ending with the individual airline.

No wonder the rich won't set foot in a public airport anymore. They timeshare biz jets at reliever airports, even though it costs them a fortune; just to avoid the misery.

Give me the early 70's/80's any day! When people dressed up to go to the airport, and everybody was polite to the passenger.

[PAXboy]

Pax speaking
vanHorckThen on arrival at the gate invariably the information is not available. Why not from an hour before the flight post something like:
flight is due to depart on time
or
flight is due to depart .... min late due to .........

And ensuring through an information SYSTEM that this information is honest and complete and accurateI suggest that a goodly part of this is because there is no single and consistent trail of information available.

The carrier may have sub-contracted large parts of their operation to third parties and airports certainly have. Whilst contracts and procedures state that each party will report back as they complete/fail each requirement - there is still no single point of control. There is no one system or individual looking out for the trail of information to pax:
on web or via SMS to their mobiles
in queue at check-in
waiting in departure lounges (all types) with possible updates via SMS
at the gateEach of those points is a different group of people, with only a notional single point of control. Lastly, most of the process' and systems work on the basis that they WILL work and only to report exceptions when they DON'T.

Thus the people who might send out corrective information are only sent details when there is a failure but they may just get a simple msg that a particular contractor or staff member reports that a delay has occurred. They will not not necessarily know how or why.

How to fix? V-e-r-y difficult, because the current way of doing things has built up over the past 20 years and is now accepted practice. At large airports, there is almost zero chance of making a joined-up chain of information - unless you have lots of money.

[skydriller]

KLM flight monday night, Amsterdam - Bordeaux

1. Inital delay of 20mins, reason given by groundstaff of inbound flight delayed.
2. Everyone boards bus to go to aircraft, but then de-bussed and told there is a technical problem with the aircraft, delay now 1 hr.

At this point a couple of pax sentiments along the lines of "great, again, oh well, but just resigned to the delay, not too upset, as everyone was updated and given reasonable reasons etc..

3.Arrive on aeroplane, FD crew appologise for delay, re-stating technical glitch on aeroplane and all fixed nothing to worry about, underlining that its best to depart knowing aeroplane safe etc..

Good announcement I thought, apology accepted, we're on our way and anyone worried about flying would be reassured etc.

4. Cabin crew make announcements etc and finish off with "sorry for the delay of one hour, this was due to ATC...."

EErrr....What?...I know I wasnt the only one thinking "so what was the problem then.....didnt she just hear what one of the pilots just said?", as I overheard several pax nearby comment negatively with what was that she just said, why do they always lie to us etc....

Pax goodwill about a delay just destroyed in 10 secs.

No info about delays is bad, and gets pax annoyed, but dont make stuff up.... you get pissed off when you are lied to, dont you? If you want the respect of your pax how about treating them with a little respect too?

[Chrisbowe82]

On the subject of misinformation...
I remember SLF'ing on a Britannia flight many moons ago out of MAN. 4 hour delay, no biggie for me, but a fair number of PAX made their way over to the gate/airline's customer service desk, to be told the captain was still in bed... :ugh: cue: crowd of angry PAX asking for home phone numbers for the flight crew. Unbelievable.

Ended up going out on an Air Atlanta tristar though, so I was happy anyway.

[Poof in Boots]

British Airways for more than a year have been cancelling flights due to "Crew Shortages", as if to imply the company has suddenly been caught out by a load of crew going sick on the day at the last moment.

The truth is that with the success of their EG300 penal sickness management policy there are many less crew sick every day, but management have cut the headline number of crew so they are short at certain times of the month when part time contracts kick in.

[StbdD]

It happens, in the AA case, because of managements gross incompetence and dishonesty.

In this example management TOLD the gate agents to spread the late/oversleeping crew lie (#101 in their playbook) and it's not by any means an isolated case of them trying to deflect blame onto the employees for a management fark-up. As it happened, the crew arrived right when they were scheduled to via another flight..... unfortunately the company screwed that connection as the flight they were to crew was to leave just as they got to the airport. Management therefore fell back on trusty excuse #101.

Seems the employees of that airline are tired of apologizing for things totally out of their control and so they generally don't. Instead, many have taken to handing out cards with the CEOs phone number on it. "Don't waste your anger on me because I'm pissed off as well. Call him."

[Basil-Fawlty]

:DI cant understand why on earth the airline staff at the gate would make such a stupid announcement to the passengers that the crew are late ( What morons!). I can tell you almost every flight I have been on as pax or otherwise never departed on time and this goes for most of the major European airlines.

I think those who work in the industry fully understand the ins and out of the business, but the average Joe blow would not have a clue as how things really work and that's why the action taken by wobble2plank (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/115877-wobble2plank) & vanHorck (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/214785-vanhorck) was spot on. That was in my opinion the correct customer service action expected from a reputable airline.:D

I think some people on this form have been a bit harsh toward Green Granite, I can fully understand the customer expectation and an on time performance. I cannot remember being on any flight that has actually departed on time, maybe once or twice.

What really gets me is when some passenger arrives late 5 min after the gate closes, only to be told sorry you cannot come on board.:ugh:

I can understand why the crew got really Pis.............ed off, but I think if they have taken the same approach as wobble2plank (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/115877-wobble2plank), the outcome might have been different

Green Granite, you are right those pax do pay our wages.:cool:

Safe and happy flying to all from Sybil, Poly and Manuel!:ok:

BF

[vanHorck]

so i guess the thread does show it is down to information

The first airline with or without subcontractors who manages to put a reliable information SYSTEM together perhaps as suggested including info at check in, via SMS etc will be the winner.

Everyone can accept delays due to unforeseen or force majeure reasons such as weather, tech issues.

The more problematic ones are those due to air congestion, strikes or lousy HR issues (BA), ground crew mismanagement etc.

But the long and short is that truthful, accurate and timely information (all three criteria being achievable) will help no end in reducing everyone's stress crew and pax alike.

But i guess it is airline management wanting to cover up (too) tight scheduling of crew and planes, covering up HR issues within the carrier, who have caused this intended misting up of the reasons of flight delays, not in the least perhaps for fear of claims.

so which airline has the balls to stand up and take the lead?

[vanHorck]

Don't kick knees with your long legs as you walk down the aisle explaining the next delays
:)

[Re-Heat]

There is a fine line between legitimate grievances of customers and intolerable behaviour. Unfortunately, I feel that companies in service industries seem to take the opinion these days that any forceful complaint by a customer in person to one of their staff tends towards harrasment rather than legitimate feedback.

Take for example many posters we have around British railway stations with beaten-up staff photographed. While clearly unacceptable to resort to physical violence, the message it gives actually intimidates customers (combined with bolshie, unionised staff) - becoming don't hassle the staff with any complaints.

A lack of responsibility by the gate staff clearly caused this incident. Combined with a high probability that the staff there had no ability to know what actually caused the delay, combined to unacceptable behaviour, where the passengers had legitimate grievances.

Service industries require quality service - staff require the tools to provide this service.

[vanHorck]

It s a complex problem.

All large companies, banks but airlines too have managed to hide their management from their customers. I guess it is done for efficiency reasons but leads to enormous frustration with the customers when things go wrong.

Staff training is cut to the bone, leading staff to being unable to deal properly with complaints (time constraints too, due efficiency drives). Many clients would be more helped by a "don t know" answer than a false answer when delays occur.

Subcontracting too makes the system less transparent.

I am not trying to justify the anger and abuse by pax. it is unacceptable and is due to norms and values having changed. But they have changed (in this example)in no small way by the problem of anonymity as described before.

Both ground staff and crew should (be allowed to) take time to investigate the true cause of the delay and take time to explain it to the pax until an information SYSTEM is in place :ugh:

[CamelhAir]

Service industries require quality service - staff require the tools to provide this service.

And quality staff cost more, so it won't happen. Not unless customers vote with their wallets.But they vote to travel as cheaply as possible. So it's a vicious circle.
When the staff are treated properly, they will provide proper service. If the airline isn't willing to do so and the pax are prepared to put up with the consequences, then so be it. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys, always was, always will be.
So quit whinging and find an airline that values you, your money and its staff.

p.s. kudos to the crew in this incident. Again, it comes back to being valued, with every airline trying to hammer crew as much as possible, why the hell should they care? And in case anyone misses the obvious, they're being hammered so you, the pax, can "enjoy" a cheaper fare. You get what you pay for.

[thewatcher]

The way passengers reacted was of course inappropriate and offending, even if I refuse to believe that all passengers participated and so some of them got "punished" unfairly.

It s normal that crew members felt offended but they reacted a bit impulsive by refusing to make that flight and let it be canceled. I wonder about the captain in charge! Either he is an impulsive young captain that let his ego take that decision or an one close to retirement that miss old times when both passenger and crews were much more mannered and less stressed than nowadays!

Anyway...this attitude " they hit me I hit back" is not a wise one ! :=

Because of the "lesson" crew gave to the "bad" passengers, maybe some passengers got in troubles harder to be fixed than the crew ego!

Valid for both parts ( pax and crew) : use bit more your brain and good sense and let aside impulsive reaction and silly revenges!!

Behave yourself people! So we can pretend we live in a civilized world!

[wobble2plank]

Skydriller,

This is, unfortunately, symptomatic of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The flight may well have been delayed by a technical fault. However, generally, most small snags are easy and quick to fix if not even put into the acceptable deferred defaults list.

If you miss your departure slot, which ties in with your cross Europe flight plan slot, then you need to request another. This can take hours! A likely explanation as to why you were given 2 'different' answers to the delay is that the CC aren't really that interested in what was fixed, they will be interested in when they go off duty and the ATC slot delay will affect that more. They understand 'Slot Delays' far more than 'the AI was broken' and will communicate that with you. Sad but true.

[1DC]

A while ago i went to EMA to meet a friend arriving from ALC, i arrived about an hour before he was due(1300) and the arrivals board didn't show his flight.I went to the airlines desk and the polite lady said she didn't have any information but would make an announcement when she knew. Shortly after my friend rang to say they hadn't left but were showing delayed 1 hour. I told the polite lady and she directed me to the operations desk who may know more.Again very polite people, i asked the ops man if he had any information because i had a two hour drive to home and didn't know whether to stay or wait. He was very helpful, made a phone call, and told me that the aircraft needed a small part which would be leaving Luton with a technician about 1700 arriving in ALC about 2000.The part would take about 40 minutes to fix and he thought the flight would arrive at EMA just before midnight. I rang my friend and told him and he said the flight was then showing a delay of 2 hours with no one giving any information. I went and did a bit of shopping had something to eat at a pub and arrived back at about 2000. I went to the desk, different lady, asked if there was any news and she said the flight was expected in about 2 hours although the board still showed delayed. The flight eventually arrived at 0115.
My point is that whilst everyone was helpful to me, the information i had at 1300 was never passed to the desks where people were asking for information..

[BenThere]

GreenGranite's point is well-taken. It's the paying passenger who puts the bread on my table and I'm grateful for it.

PAs explaining delays should be made and they should be honest and informative.

That being said, in this instance if the captain felt that passengers were so angry that he questioned whether they would follow flight/cabin crew instructions in flight, or possibly even initiate a physical altercation, he was doing the right thing in pulling the plug. I'd like to hear his story and reason for taking the action he did.

In 32 years of flying I've never seen a flight delayed due to crew oversleeping or negligently failing to show up.

Gate agents are underpaid and subject to the bulk of customer abuse and I sympathize with them. But for a gate agent to announce correctly or incorrectly that the crew overslept is undiplomatic and irresponsible. "The flight crew is delayed, we estimate their arrival at XX" would suffice in the instance.

[VAFFPAX]

vanHorck,

In many airports the display boards are bespoke-designed to display a set of information that does not include lengthy messages such as yours. However - revamped (i.e. modernised) and new airports use LCD displays that tend to allow the displays of longer messages, but the airport systems may not necessarily be as advanced to display such messages. Even if they are, how do you turn a delay that is due to legal requirements (i.e. late arrival the previous night with legal requirement to rest 6 hours plus travel) into a short and sweet message?

"due to crew scheduling" is a terribly vague message.
"due to late arrival" doesn't work when this is the first flight out.
"due to legal requirement" also is terribly vague.

Considering that I am in the business of usability, I know that people don't read long messages, hence security messages being... short. sweet. blocks. of. information. that pax. can understand. You get my drift.

I have to agree with Paxboy that the airline who manages to get a system up and running that allows their ground crew (or the contracted out ground-staff) to display the reasons for the delay, will be the one with the most customer satisfaction where delays are concerned.

From past experience, many US airports (I haven't flown into MIA, so I don't know the state of the terminals there) still use antiquated CRT 15" (if that) displays that only show the airline, the time, and the gate. Structural investments like better PIDs (Passenger Information Displays) are LOW on the priority list.

Airports where airlines have an exclusive terminal (ironically, BA's Terminal 5 or JetBlue's JFK terminal are perfect examples), more expansive displays could very well be possible, provided they are controlled by the airline specifically, and the airline is always on top of why flights are delayed.

S.

[spierpoint jones]

Hoo Rah, for the crew!!

jones:ok:

[Centaurus]

You want passenger rage? Just wait until unrestricted use of mobile phones occurs in the cabin. Allowing mobile phone bogans with loud voices in the cabin is going to cause serious problems to flight attendants who are forced to "speak" to the offender and risk getting knuckled.

[VAFFPAX]

Centaurus, I have to second you there... It's something I am dreading. I'm happy with SMS or WiFi traffic via GSM and satellite, but voice calls? NO THANKS.

S.

[corsair]

I wonder if part of the problem stems from something which I have noticed a bit lately. It seems to me the crew were abused because the pax believed that they were the cause of the delay. Wobble2plank had a similar experience where ground staff 'gleefully' informed passengers, wrongly, that the crew had overslept.

Is there a pattern here? I have noticed that some non flying staff in the business sometimes seem to have a chip on their shoulders about those who fly. Sometimes cabin crew, (glorified waitresses) but particularly pilots. I myself was on the receiving end of sarky remarks from a non pilot with power over me. 'So called professional pilots' among other things said, all delivered in way to ensure that others saw it happen and I was properly put in my place. Over the years I have often heard digs and comment directed at pilots from various sources. One Mr O'Leary being a case in point.

The 'arrogant pilot' is of course the favoured target. Often it's delivered in a jocose manner but sometimes there's more than a hint of bile in it. Or in my case an attempt at at a serious put down. Anyone else come across it.

[sevenstrokeroll]

There is talk of a passenger bill of rights...I say HA!!!!

There should be a flight crew/airline employee bill of rights...hey, let's call it:RE-REGULATION!

[VAFFPAX]

corsair, all you need to do is look on here occasionally. The bile's still there...

S.

[corsair]

Noticed that too.

[Check Airman]

Bravo Zulu to that crew!

[radeng]

As a mere SLF, I can understand pax getting irritated. Especially when ground staff giove out no or wrong info. But in some ways, it's our fault as slf in wanting flying on the cheap. If we were not so mean, standby crews could be available. An example: earlier on this year, one evening flying back from somewhere in Europe, we were two hours late. Because, so the CC told me, the FO turned up for work, started feeling unwell, got so bad by the time he got to the aircraft they had an ambulance for him. Standby FO fetched from home, slots missed and cumulative delays all day and the crew getting right up to their hours limits. Now if pax paid more, maybe airlines could afford to have standby crew at the airport, rather than at home - the standby at home guys would be the back ups for wehen the first standby guys went out.

[20driver]

I could write a book on this. This incident seems very typical of what I have seen happen so often you think you are in bad dream.

It all comes down to providing some accurate timely information to the passengers.

One night in ATL, Delta flight, their home base, we had a tech delay and then they found another aircraft which they were going to bring over from the MX hanger. At 10:40 the screen was still showing a 10:45 , ( 2 hour delay) departure and there was no plane at the gate!!! Come on folks. Concessions on the concourse were closed, they nearest food was half a mile away and all they could say was don't leave the gate! Plane left after midnight.

A few weeks later something very similar happened, again Delta at Atlanta flying to NYC, and the police had to be called. As the "mob" included several NYC cops things got fun in a hurry.

Most people will be reasonable but you treat people like turnips don't be surprised when they go off.

I really feel sorry for the ground staff, they are kept in the dark worse than the pax.


Green granite is right about one thing. The airlines take no consideration of the value of the customers time. I've got your money and you can just sit and wait. Don't go on about what do you expect for a cheap ticket. Often as not this happens to me when I'm flying on a $500 one way for a two hour flight. That is not a cheap ticket, why do I get treated as trash?

A few weeks back I had this happen in Mobile. RJ went tech and a mechanic had to drive 3 hours with the part. Gate told people the straight skinny, we would have a 4 hour delay, and when the mechanic showed he got a round of applause. ttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_clap.gif15 minutes later we were on our way. Could have being ugly but a little bit of honesty goes a long way.

I can't comment on the crew in this case but I will bet a lot of money that for a minimal effort from the airline this could have being avoided.

This is really the managements fault and I think all staff should carry cards with the home numbers of the CEO and airport managers and hand this out to passengers.

20driver

[birrddog]

The root issue here as was pointed out earlier is management and their accountability (for all parties involved - airline, airport, ground agents, handling, etc.)

They are too far removed, and there is a clear feedback breakdown between them, the crew and the slf.

I support the crews decision to walk away from this flight, and I hope they held the airline management accountable. (Doubt we will ever now).

Unfortunately this industry has become so big and complacent (airlines,crew and passengers alike) and _everyone_ feels entitled.

Everyone needs to show and be treated with respect.
Fares need to go up, not down, provided the revenues go to fix the system and not directly to the shareholders so they keep the (corrupt) management in place. People need decent wages (not just cabin crew but ground staff as well), otherwise they wont give a damn, will be overworked, and won't be motivated.

Good service, is a good business, good businesses make money.

Passengers who complain at the price hike, well there is always GreyHound....

The downside of course, is this could lead to downsizing if such a shift does occur, and a smaller but possibly happier place for those lucky enough to remain in the air.

It's a double edged sword.

[Airbubba]

Here's one proposed solution to the issue of pax unrest:

A senior government official with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has expressed great interest in a so-called safety bracelet that would serve as a stun device, similar to that of a police Taser®. According to this promotional video found at the Lamperd Less Lethal, Inc. website, the bracelet would be worn by all airline passengers (video also shown below).

This bracelet would:

• take the place of an airline boarding pass

• contain personal information about the traveler

• be able to monitor the whereabouts of each passenger and his/her luggage

• shock the wearer on command, completely immobilizing him/her for several minutes


Washington Times - Politics, Breaking News, US and World News - "Want some torture with your peanuts?" by Aviation Security (http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/aviation-security/2008/Jul/01/want-some-torture-with-your-peanuts/)

[Little_Red_Hat]

I wonder about the captain in charge! Either he is an impulsive young captain that let his ego take that decision or an one close to retirement that miss old times when both passenger and crews were much more mannered and less stressed than nowadays

Or perhaps he was trying to avoid further incidences of air rage.

I was unfortunate enough to be in a similar situation, pax were making snarky comments, swearing and being abusive to staff. Unfortunately this was due to lengthy ground delays then a mid-air return to departure airport. No alternative but to send crew to rest for 10 hours then come back and fly with these pax on the repaired a/c. During the flight things got progressively worse and deteriorated to the point of physical altercation between pax and cabin crew. One cc was even spat on by a pax!!

Had the captain on that flight decided to leave them all stranded it would have been a much better outcome. End result was, a few angry pax left everyone stranded when they diverted to have this to$$er arrested!

'Don't go assuming it's about ego. Quite possibly this decision prevented further delay/injury/drama.

I agree, the flow of information needs to be better- but having been ground staff, informing pax of the reasons for delay (e.g. technical fault, XX minutes to fix") invariably results in stupid comments from 99% of pax like, cant we fly without it?? When pax stop treating CC and groud staff like slaves then they will get a better reaction.

Next time you're delayed take a minute to watch how pax are treated by the CC.... the ones being to$$ers are inevitably given a minimum of attention, while crew will go all-out for those pax who remain polite and unabusive. Call them unprofessional if you like but what's the saying.... treat others as you would like to be treated?

We know pax pay our wages, they pay their kids teachers too but would they spit on her or called her a 'stupid bitch' if their kid got D's???

[PETTIFOGGER]

Who caused the "hostile work environment"? The airline
how? bad communication and customer care principles.
why? insufficient training in people skills.
were the crew right to cancel? Probably. It is an on the spot call.
What is the overall outcome? Bad PR for the airline for obvious reasons, and bad PR for the crew, because it has been made to look like they have very fragile egos.
What's the answer? better understanding needed of the PR and commercial benefits of accurate and timely communication.
How? Better or more training with role play.

[SLFguy]

Oh all of a sudden what we read in the papers is 100% accurate..

Some of you guys are unreal - one minute they're the "gutter press/journo idiots" and the next you're on yer high horses quoting self same press to castigate pax!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Unfortunately the airlines seemed to be trapped in a vicous downward spiral. Understaffing combined with unrealistic schedules virtually guarantee many if not most flights will be late. Demoralized front line staff who are under layoff threats and have had there T & C's significantly rolled back have to deal with a never ending stream of unhappy passengers. Now the high cost of fuel will add further pressures to cut staff, while the airlines continue to encourage unreasonable expectations on the part of passsengers by promising what they cannot delever and pricing fares below the cost of running the operation.:ugh: I cannot see how things could significantly impove without a fundamental change in he airline business model which would IMO have to start with a real effort to educating the travelling public on what their ticket does (and more importantly doesn't) buy.

[llondel]

Interesting to see the entrenched positions on this. I can fully understand pax getting annoyed and yes, having information on why there's a delay goes a long way to calming the situation. I've seen the monitors at the RYR gates at STN where they're obviously on automatic and make no allowance for late flights, just cycling over at pre-determined times. However, the crew and ground staff are not to blame for the foul-up so complaints should be delivered politely (the same is true of most places, the person you deal with is not at fault and will be more receptive to your complaint if you're polite).

A couple of weeks ago I was on a Delta flight from SFO to SLC and one of the cabin crew failed to arrive. We couldn't board because I assume an RJ700 requires two crew in the cabin for that to happen, but this was explained to us, along with the fact that they were trying to source a replacement. Then we got told one had been found and he was on his way. He got a lot of thanks from the pax as we boarded and again as we got off.

I can fully understand why the crew of the flight under discussion didn't want to fly, good for them and I hope they get a chance to make their side of things clear to the media (probably unlikely, management will sit on them) so that credit for the day's events can be delivered to the correct place.

[gdiphil]

I'm a fare paying passenger and not connected to the airline industry either past or present.
There is something very odd about this tale and the reactions to it. My day job is as a full time academic. I can have lectures with up to 500 people in the room, in air transport terms an A380's worth of passengers. Now since I work in central London I can be late due to train/tube delays even if I catch an early one. If I am late I have to enter a room full of now skeptical students who obviously think it is my fault I have kept them waiting. So, what do I do? I tell them why they have been kept waiting, including if it is my fault. Apology is given and generally speaking nothing is made of the issue. Without second guessing the captain of the aircraft concerned I think I would have gone to the desk and spoken over the loud speakers to the irate passengers giving them a full and frank explanation as to why I and my crew were so late. I would then have got on with the job. But I do say this without second guessing the captain, I was not there. I must also say that I would not want to be flown by a distressed crew, caused by any reason let alone from the fare paying public. I am old enough to remember the Staines BEA Trident crash; in 1963 was it?

[ribt4t]

Airline management is always blaming the pilots for anything - you want to blame somebody for rude treatment by customers blame the managers who are always publicly blaming the pilots for everything that is wrong with the industry.

Airlines seem to do little to help themselves, they keep passengers in the dark about delays, try to conceal the true extent of a delay to avoid paying for hotels or snacks for passengers and often seem to have rude and undertrained staff at the sharp end dealing with the customers.

[Carrier]

Deltaindiasierrspapa, Airbubba, Romeoidiaxray, Weasil, etc.

The entitlement of the pax is to be treated as CUSTOMERS. Remember, the customer is always right! They are the people who are paying your wages. You need to remember that you are in a service industry. They are also entitled to be transported, together with their bags, in accordance with the company’s published timetable. This is nothing new. In the late 19th century Sir Richard Moon, who was Chairman of the London & North Western Railway, said: “A timetable is a gentleman’s word.” The LNWR right up until Grouping had a reputation as being above all other UK railways for being on time and for its employees doing their best to regain time that had been lost by others/elsewhere.

Things go wrong in the best of companies. In addition to the usual personnel and equipment problems, airlines are subject to weather delays more than other forms of transport. The obligation then is to do one’s best to remedy the situation and KEEP THE CUSTOMERS INFORMED OF WHAT IS BEING DONE. All too often when a flight is delayed the airline company’s and staff’s attitude to customers is one of dumb insolence.

It seems that many people in the airline industry or associated with it (eg so-called security personnel) consider that being part of it gives them an entitlement to be abusive to the general public, particularly their passengers. Reasonable complaints from customers are all too often met with shouts of “Air Rage” and outright insolence and abuse from staff and company. What goes around comes around! Being an airline pilot or air hostess used to be looked up to. They were occupations with genuine status. Now an airline pilot is looked upon as being no more than an airborne and rather surly version of a bus, truck or train driver and the air hostess as a flying waitress with an attitude. This disreputable industry has forfeited the public’s respect with its unpleasant antics. If the industry wants to regain that respect then it has to mend its ways and EARN it. It will not help the situation by engaging in and encouraging further bullying of the travelling public.

[411A]

A couple of years ago, the flight is scheduled BEN-AMM, but the airplane is late from maintenance...by 15 hours.
Pax at the departure lounge already, stamped out by immigration, so no chance of returning to hotac.
I direct the cabin supervisor to make an announcement in the departure lounge (local lingo) to the effect that we will depart at 6am (the earliest possible simply because that is the earliest immigration can rubber stamp the GenDec.)
pax on board at 5:30, GenDec stamped at 6, off we go.
Slight problem,
Nacelle/pylon overheat in the climb, appropriate switchlights pressed, HP valve #3 closed, problem solved.
In AMM, pax have already been notified in hotac (and at home) so they are pleased.

Lets face facts here.

Airline managements need to realise that...keep the punters properly and accurately informed of delays, and usually they will completely understand...lie to 'em, expect big problems, make no mistake.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Imagine your ema-dub flight being delayed 3 hrs. And it's the last flight for the day and all you want to do is get home. The a/c is delayed from somewhere else... What you gonna do, have a word with God!!!???:ugh:

Aircrew do not have to work in a hostile envoirement. I am delayed (in my airline not being paid for the delay), i am tired, had to deal with another 189 angry pax, smile when i'm about to cry, be nice, help, reassure, comfort....
I would've done the same. One hr and something mins late??? Oh dear, what a drama!
Deal with it, get on the a/c, understand it's not crew's fault (as if we deliberatly chose to be late:ugh:.......), get to your destination safe and sound and maybe say a "thanks" at the other end. Simple as...

Good on the crew who refused to fly, you are not pax's slaves!!!!

My thoughts go out to you.

Rgds,
ATS

[Avitor]

I am with the crew on this, the Captain was bright enough to note that his authority had been eroded when he joined the aircraft.

[Leezyjet]

The best part of the story though is that the folks eventually got to LGA but their bags went to JFK! Priceless...

Am I the only one who finds this very worrying ?. In this day and age, you would think after Lockerbie and 11/09 the Americans would have finally learn't their lesson about security - seems not !!. :eek:

I have noticed that some non flying staff in the business sometimes seem to have a chip on their shoulders about those who fly.

Probably due to the way that some flight crew feel they are entitled to speak to ground staff like they are something they have just trodden in (you know the ones, there are plenty of them out there - it is these ones who cause you all to be tarred with the same brush which causes the problem)- this is even more amusing when said crew member is actually wanting help from the person that they are speaking to like :mad:

Ground staff never walk into an a/c and tell the crew how to do their jobs, yet so many flight crew feel they have to make snide comments or worse about the way we do ours, so a little mutual respect concerning the differing jobs roles goes along way. We have SOP's we have to adhere to too, they might seem pathetic and long winded but we didn't write them, but we have to work to them just like you flight crew do with yours.

We have had several Captains recently trying to flex their muscles and wanting to depart knowing things were not correct with paperwork issues, but because that is not important as to them it is a silly minor issue, but it has to be correct before the a/c can depart by our SOP's the dispatcher rightly refused to let them go. A comment of "well you cannot stop me, if I want to depart I will" from one Captain was met with "oh I didn't know this a/c can fly with the jet bridge still attatched" from the dispatcher !!.

So if you see or hear your fellow air crew speaking to the g/staff like cr@p, maybe have a word with them and point out the error of their ways, then one day we can all live happily ever after.

:ok:

[40&80]

Bahamas Airways Nassau were taken over by Cathay in 1968ish and the suits from HKK had big plans... they introduced a lovely passenger information counter and trained up specially selected locals to sit behind a huge "Passenger Information" sign.
Flights were delayed and on asking why I was told...."Man dis child dont know nutin, I just passenger information man no one takin to dis child"
Bahamas Airways liquidated in October 1970...said it all for me about Cathay management.

[grumpyoldgeek]

I'm just PAX, private pilot and airplane lover.

That said, I'm glad I seem to live in a different universe than these thugs and those of you that have to haul them. I fly a few times a year, mostly up and down the pacific coast of the US. I've never seen any of the flight crew abused by PAX. I have seen spontaneous applause for a nice landing through a bumpy approach, a "nicely done" to the pilot by the passengers on the way out, and lots of patience and politeness to the cabin crew.

Now TSA is a different matter....

[fireflybob]

I think a big part of this problem is that many airline managements seem to think they are in the "transportation" business. This is wrong, whatever business you are in you are in the "people" business. It's all about communication and telling people the truth - there's too much spin being put on things these days.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I've worked for BA,Air France, Lufthansa, KLM - most on franchises or partners operating on their behalf. I've worked for Europe@s largets charter operator and largest LoCo - ergo - I've been about a bit ( Big Bill's Words ).

I have found that bad temper and bad manners is not exclusive to any one situation: passengers can kick off for all sorts of reasons, the majority not remotely associated with delays.

As the cost of air travel comes down the expectation of service rises: if you travel with my company, FR, we will take you form A to B safely in a nice new airplane. Anything else you pay for.

If you go with BA or VS or BD tho you pay more and hence have a greater expectation of service: equally, if you don't get a 0.01p FR fare perhaps you have expectation of service.

It is the anticipation of some service promise which doesn't materialise that causes problems: when the "experience" begins with a check in facility manned by the cheapest bidder it is downhill from there.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Carrier said: Remember, the customer is always right!

Wrong. This would have to be one of the most incorrect clichés ever.

When customers start verbally and/or physically assaulting front-line staff (even if the customers have legitimate beefs about something) they are not only "not right", but they are also likely breaking the law.

[Rananim]

Now an airline pilot is looked upon as being no more than an airborne and rather surly version of a bus, truck or train driver and the air hostess as a flying waitress with an attitude. This disreputable industry has forfeited the public’s respect with its unpleasant antics. If the industry wants to regain that respect then it has to mend its ways and EARN it. It will not help the situation by engaging in and encouraging further bullying of the travelling public.

There is some truth to this,I readily admit it.Customer service died a death with dereg and advent of low-cost.Then 911 put the final nail in the coffin.Passengers must never argue with crew.Youve all seen Anger Management;)Just getting through security puts BOTH crew and passengers in a frightful mood these days.Then theres the layoffs and labor disputes which can destroy families and careers.Flying aint what it used to be thats for sure.Its tough on passengers and crew.
The irony is that the industry will probably have to cut back further on customer service to keep afloat,just at a time when passenger satisfaction is already very low.
If you want real customer service nowadays you will have to fly business or better with Singapore and pay through the teeth.Southwest Airlines' customer service is pretty good.They always try at any rate and are usually a pleasant experience for the economy-minded passenger.For crews,they are a real charm to work for.

[MarlboroLite]

As fairly common user of air travel, i applaud the crew for taking that decision.
Do i care if my flight is delayed, short answer is "NO". because i know if i have an onward connecting flight, that the airline im travelling with (Mainly BA) will put me on the next availible flight. If its not a connecting flight, then i get to where i need to be a few hours late, It's not the end of the world
It's not the crews fault if they have suffered delays which are beyond there control, so why take it out upon them!

I hate to stereotype, but i wander how many of the passengers on said flight threatened to call there lawyer :suspect:

[777fly]

How can any professional airman condone the actions of this crew? They arrived to operate a flight and should, necessarily, have accepted the responsibilities attached to it. The passengers for this flight, angry and antagonistic as they were, became the Captain's responsibility when he arrived to operate the flight. To walk away from the situation was a failure of leadership and can only have helped to diminish the status of flight crew in the eyes of the travelling public and other members of company staff. We pilots are expected to be leaders and are relatively well paid for that expectation. To walk away from the situation that this crew experienced was a disgrace and will only help to accelerate the decline of aircrew perceived status.
Is some kind of empathy with the long suffering passenger too much to ask?
All it would have taken is to stand up, with the lounge microphone. be visible. and say ' I know what you have been through, I am here to help put it right'. You win every time. If you are too scared, tired or indifferent to do that, maybe you are in the wrong profession.

[411A]

Well said, 777fly...and absolutely correct.
This FD crew should be ashamed of themselves.

[Dan Winterland]

My previous employer had a similar incident - in Florida as well as it happens. The crew are two hours late for the scheduled departure at the airport. To get to the aircraft, they have to walk through the departure lounge through the passengers who are miling around the departure gate. One of the pax starts a slow hand clap, the rest follow. Then another pax starts verbally abusing the crew and then another pushes the Captain and trys to start an arguement. The crew have to push their way through the crowd to get to the gate and a very unpleasant incident was prevented by a quick thinking security guard who opened the gate without checking the crew's IDs.

The FO is a friend of mine who told me the Captain was very disturbed by this and couldn't stop shaking for a long time - well into the cruise. I would suggest that this Captain would have been well advised to not fly.

The reason for the delay was that the crew needed minimum rest after a late arrival of their previous sector due to weather. The passengers were told by the ground staff (who checked them all in for the original departure time) that the delay was because "The pilots wanted some more sleep".

[ACORD]

777Fly - Well said.

Nothwithstanding the fact that the PAX were behaving inappropriately - a real leader would have commanded the situation by picking up the PA, explaining what had happened and instructed the PAX to behave properly.

[gtf]

Bit of fact checking, or perspective as you may like...

* The crew was late because their inbound flight was late, the gate never bothered to pass that small detail on (they knew);
* Only a few pax booed, the rest shut up;
* Only two crew members (don't know CC or FD) decided to walk, the rest went along for solidarity;
* It was a MIA - NYC flight, for many, enough said. If you're not in the know, imagine your worst pax, filling half the seats, every day, on every flight between MIA and NYC. Flown it many times (as SLF thank god). If I were CC, can't think of a number high enough that'd make me want to work a flight like that. Crew agree so it goes very junior very often, meaning short fuse, less patience, no diplomatic skills...

Not trying to excuse anyone, but...
* Gate should have done appropriate announcement;
* Cattle should have shut up;
* Someone (gate, crew ?) should have called police to round up booeing cattle;
* Flight should not have been canx'd.

Basically, an all around fiasco, but bad pax behavior is definitively the root of this evil.

As for luggage going to LGA instead of JFK, I say lucky them, I would have sent them to ANC but that's just me.

[20driver]

GTF has hit one on the nose.
Miami flights are despised and avoided by NYC crews, with a fair bit of reason from what I've being told.
That said, this sort of BS goes on all the time and is a result of poor , non existent, management. A proactive step anywhere by gate staff or crew could have saved it but given the shafting airline employees are getting these days I'm not surprised no one stepped up.

Sadly there is more to come.

20driver

[Carrier]

Quote: “......and leaving the pax babies to take the train or bus.”

That’s exactly what increasing numbers are doing where they have a choice of surface transport. (I seem to recall that even Capt. PPRuNe himself had to take the train home a year or so ago because the free airline service had vanished!) In the past two weeks we have been hearing about UK’s need for new railway lines. This is because traffic has increased 40% over the past decade to 1946 levels, the highest ever annual number of pax, and is expected to increase a further 30% in the next decade. In the USA three or four decades ago the East Coast shuttle, I believe originally run by Eastern Airlines, on the Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Washington corridor, was the way to travel. About two years ago it was announced that nearly two thirds of the pax on this corridor were now using the train. Yes, train service has improved in both UK and USA, but a considerable part of this move away from airlines is from customers who have been driven away from the airlines by security and airline staff hassles and endless unexplained waiting. Then there are the pax who have switched to the bus/coach, or use their car as Carrier and Mrs C do. Others are simply not travelling as much or at all.

Do you or do you not want jobs? Carrying on with some of the juvenile attitudes indicated above will only destroy more jobs in the airline industry and further tarnish its already odious reputation. It seems there are some airline dinosaurs, both companies and employees, who are still living in the era of subsidised state owned airlines that prefer to fly empty aircraft on the taxpayers’ money. Things have changed. This industry is no longer exempt from Business 101. You get the attitude you deserve from your customers, whether that is respect or contempt.

[bobmac2]

You aren't by chance the same puffed up Biggles who famously refused to let any passenger off his airplane at Rome several years ago until someone confessed to smoking in the toilet? I remember he got his just dessert on being arrested and hauled off the aircraft for his rather public-school boy attitude, which is exactly what your immature coments here reminded me of. I am sure not all SLF are graduates, and some may not even be white, and some probably do need a wash, but so what? Their angry response was probably misdirected at the AA aircrew, but your response just shows (yet again) why most of the world's arlines are in so much trouble. Appalling management and conceited aircrew who are too full of their own importance are a great mix......not.

[411A]

Do you or do you not want jobs? Carrying on with some of the juvenile attitudes indicated above will only destroy more jobs in the airline industry and further tarnish its already odious reputation.

Also well said.
It would appear to me that some FD crew just don't give a damn, and if that is the case, they are not worthy of being at the pointy end.
Period.

[Jonny Suave Trousers]

As "self loading freight" I have many times missed connecting flights due to situations such as this. The whole idea of traveling by a commercial airline is actually stressful because of the usual delays that occur...

Ask yourself this, why did a mob mentality develop?

Perhaps people have had enough of being treated as mere Self Loading Freight?

[wobble2plank]

Seems a little harsh to condem the FD without knowing the full reasons behind the cancellation.

Possibly it was the CC who decided they would not be locked inside an aluminum tube with xx unruly and abusive passengers. I would imagine that finding a replacement crew after the reasons for the original crew declining would be a tad difficult. There is no authority of the Captain anymore to order the crew to operate a flight if they deem it to be 'unsafe'.

All too often, with the locked cockpit door policy, we forget the situations that the CC are sometimes (and luckily very rarely) called upon to placate.

Personally I can't wait to find out the reasons behind the decision. Should make for an interesting read.

[fireflybob]

Ok we do not know the full circumstances of this case but let's say the crew had decided to depart and there was an incident or accident which was partly attributable to passenger unruliness then what would the view be?

If pax are not behaving reasonably will they be paying attention to the safety briefing, for example? Might their actions impede exit in the event of an emergency evacuation. Passengers are required to obey all lawful commands - if they are reluctant to "tow the line" before they get on the a/c what will they be like once the doors are closed?

Yes I agree that as professionals it is within out remit to calm the waters and actions like going on the PA at the gate to explain the REAL reasons for delay are part of our job but it's also up to airline managements to be more proactive in keeping the customers fully informed.

[jimworcs]

The bottom line is that people who are left in a information vacuum, lied to or deliberately mislead will react accordingly. Airlines have cut to the point that the people on the ground are uninformed or incapable of providing accurate timely information as to what is happening, as there are too few people, too much work and not enough time. As a result, passengers are fobbed off with meaningless drivel and lies. The industry has to take some responsibility for the consequences of it's actions. Passengers are behaving badly, I have witnessed it many times and I am not defending their actions. But I have seen many occassions when an aircraft has gone tech, the airline has no clue how they are going to solve the problem, so put an hours delay on the board. When that hour is up, they put another hour on, and so on. I was once kept dangling like this for over 9 hours in Milan and then at 11.45pm told the flight was cancelled. At that hour, there were no staff around to tell people what would be happening and this compounded the problem. This approach denies passengers the necessary information to make an informed decision and to solve their own problems. Had I known the delay could be up to 9 hours, I could have made the decision early on to cancel my trip, arrange to stay overnight, and re-book a later departure. I have been lied to many times and it reaches the point where trust has broken down and you no longer believe what the airline is telling you, even when they are telling the truth. To get respect, you have to give it. There is a lack of respect all around within the industry, and attitudes such as "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys", "what do you expect", "do you know how little we are paid" contribute nothing and exacerbate an already difficult situation.

[42psi]

Is it not a little worrying that the travelling public are so gullible that they would even believe it was true when told "the crew wanted more sleep" or somesuch??

It's probably a fair bet that most of them actually have jobs so they have the money to actually buy the ticket ...... so do they often turn up late for work because they "wanted more sleep" ..... :hmm:



As has been said ..... pax should be kept informed and truthfully.... that also means if it's an indefinate delay making sure that's what folks are told.

If the departue is based on estimates or firmer times based on an actual movements then that surely should be made clear.

Of course being in a position to provide that depth of detail means having staff in position to talk to the pax.

If it's a handling agent then the airline needs to porperly manage them.

Sadly it seems the drive to reduce costs mean that this is often no longer the case for either option.


I've often seen handling agents leaving pax with the impression that a "next info ..." is actually an ETD ...... even when it simply means that's the next time the previous station will update them.

In my view if it's the airline's own gate agents etc then it should be able to properly control the information flow and accuracy and shouldn't tolerate gate agents being sloppy with information.

But I really do struggle to see how any intelligent person working in passenger services would not only know that such an explanation was plain daft but would also know exactly what effect it would have if passed on "verbatim" to the pax.....

[doodahdave]

Too often I've seen the Captain abdicate his/her position as the coordinator of information. In the States, the gate agent (usually the focus of passenger complaints and assorted ire.) receives very little information as to the cause of flight delays.

Many times I've had fellow crewmembers transit the ticket counter and hide in the cockpit to escape the passenger's questions. "Not my job...I don't get paid enough to do that!"

Some crewmembers even behave as if they're perversely enjoying the delays and that only convinces our passengers that we are enjoying their misery.

The best way I've found to diffuse incendiary situations on the ground is to:

!. Validate their feelings - "I understand how you feel..." - this demonstrates that their message has been communicated and received.

2. Establish rapport - "The same thing happened to me once..." - This helps the passenger to listen rather than demand.

3. Explain your point of view - "But this is what I've found..."

This is best remembered as the "Feel, Felt, Found" system. I've used it many times and in many different situations and it works well.

Another thing I've learned (from a US street cop) is that when speaking with a combative passenger is to thoughtfully hold my chin with my hand (to block possible punches to the face if a passenger escalates the confrontation). That combined with a "breakaway tie" helps me to maintain a safe distance.

On one memorable flight (at a Part 121 Supplemental airline) we were waiting for our inbound flight from Las Vegas when they weather diverted to an airport 300 miles (480 km) away. We were the only relief crew in that time zone (the other crew had duty timed out) and we were unable to fly to the diversion airport so we rented a car and drove to meet the plane and rescue the passengers. They were angry...rightfully so, and I agreed with them, they had every right to be angry, we screwed up and they got bad service!

But I did explain what we were doing to make it right and that the situation was caused by the fog (however, I left out the part about our lazy dispatchers not looking for closer alternates).

In fact, when we arrived back at the destination airport we were cheered by the passengers who watched us leave and drive 6 hours to get the airplane and fly them to Florida. The point was, sometimes you just need to look like you're making an effort! That makes all the difference in the world to the "peeps".

I still think communication is the hardest skill to teach to a Captain upgrade.

Doodah

[vanHorck]

taking about communicating

At Amsterdam Schiphol, when collecting your luggage, the display now shows:

Flight number and origin
1 Luggage being unloaded from the plane, or
2 Luggage all unloaded from the plane, or
3 Luggage expected at this belt at ..:.. (time), or
4 All luggage now on the belt

It s called information...... It s what s needed.... timely accurate and honest information

Gone is the stress, back are the smiles

[misd-agin]

100% of the passengers I've kicked off of flights have been flying to, or out of, NYC. None out of other city pairs. Zero. Hmmm, what's the common link?

It's a weekend. Holiday weekend. Flights late. Folks drink. Sometimes it's part of the problem, sometimes it isn't. We weren't there, we don't know.

We do have the testimony of other passengers that some of the passengers got out of hand.

I love the 'just make nice PA's' and it will be better. I'll try and remember that next time I see video of riots at soccer matches - "oh, if they'd only make nice PA's and explain themselves everything would be better." :ugh:

[Fragman88]

Blaming ATC always worked for me.

Actually it didn't. Usually the PA was immediately followed by a call from down below from the Chief Purser, relaying a message from an Air Traffic Controller passenger to the effect that the team of men in the process of attempting to dismantle/rebuild #3 engine on the tarmac were probably not ATC, and forcefully promising extended scenic tours of his neighbourhood should I ever attempt to approach his airfield.

Sorry Chaps, Have done it a few times, caught at it most times, but as was told to me by the Ancient Aviator `That's why they have a Tower---It's like a castle, they can barricade the stairs against the ravening hordes of annoyed SLF---beats the flight deck door'

F88:E

[doodahdave]

It is true that I've had more behavior problems with passengers from the Northeastern parts of the USA (NYC, Philly and Boston). One schizophrenic gentleman on a Syracuse flight comes to mind. They can be a challenge.

However, I've had more drunks flying out of Las Vegas and Reno. But my favorite episode occurred in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Prior to boarding our ticket plucker (puller) FA came into the cockpit to explain that we had a possible "overserved" passenger in the boarding area. He told us he was going to board him last and explain to him that if he didn't behave himself he was going to miss his flight.

Later on our FA came onboard laughing to himself and he told us that when the "last" passenger walked up and said,"What the hell's goin' on?? Why the f--k am I the last to board!?", our FA just said,"Buddy, you just said the wrong thing." and called security to send escort him out of the boarding area.

doodah

[777fly]

misd-agin:

You really don't get it.........

I love the ' just make nice PA's' and it will be better. I'll try to remember that next time I see a video of riots at a soccer match - ''Oh, if they'd only make nice PA's and explain themselves everything would be better''

It is of no use whatsoever to expect to placate and reassure a crowd of angry passengers from the sanctuary of the flight deck via the PA. They need the man in charge to be visible and in control of the situation, namely a leader. Any Captain who is not prepared to 'face the mob', own the problem and deal with it is not worth the 4 bars on his arm. The rioting crowd usually have a reason for the way they are. They can be calmed by an acknowledgement of their situation and a pledge to try to put it right. Put your face on the solution and they will always be with you.

I do get the impression that in the good ole USA you see the passenger as your enemy, not the person paying your salary. Just put yourself in their position. Do you want lame and anonymous excuses over the PA or a real and visible 'saviour' on the day? Your role as a Captain should encompass all aspects of the operation, not just flying the metal from A to B. Seeing the passenger as your friend might be a good start.

[Fantome]

Personally, I’ve never heard an operating crew booed and find it quite hard to believe this is anything but an unfortunate and rare incident.

Personally, when arriving late, and personally, hearing smart-arse hostie NN say witheringly in hearing of the rear rows "What kept yew?" is personally something I found funny. "Don't like your attitude." Personally heard that too from the occasional stuffed shirt sheriff. ". .. . .. . the long, the short and the tall. . .. "

To pull off a greaser and hear concerted clapping from aft is occasion enough to pick up the phone and say "Don't clap, please. Just throw money."

[I. M. Esperto]

MIA Pax have a reputation for being a notoriously obnoxious bunch quite often. The FA's try to avoid the experience.

[misd-agin]

777fly (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/104066-777fly)

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 95



misd-agin:

You really don't get it.........

I love the ' just make nice PA's' and it will be better. I'll try to remember that next time I see a video of riots at a soccer match - ''Oh, if they'd only make nice PA's and explain themselves everything would be better''

It is of no use whatsoever to expect to placate and reassure a crowd of angry passengers from the sanctuary of the flight deck via the PA. They need the man in charge to be visible and in control of the situation, namely a leader. Any Captain who is not prepared to 'face the mob', own the problem and deal with it is not worth the 4 bars on his arm. The rioting crowd usually have a reason for the way they are. They can be calmed by an acknowledgement of their situation and a pledge to try to put it right. Put your face on the solution and they will always be with you.

I do get the impression that in the good ole USA you see the passenger as your enemy, not the person paying your salary. Just put yourself in their position. Do you want lame and anonymous excuses over the PA or a real and visible 'saviour' on the day? Your role as a Captain should encompass all aspects of the operation, not just flying the metal from A to B. Seeing the passenger as your friend might be a good start.



777,

I don't hide from the passengers. Matter of fact I routinuely head to the gate to assist the agents because I know what's going on, while they sometimes don't understand the actual, or technical reasons, for any delays. I'm standing at the gate counter and a husband and wife approach me. I ask if I can help. Husband starts to berate me without getting to what I can do to help. I ask again, what can I do to help? He starts off again. I look at wife. She realizes I'll try to help if perhaps given the chance. She takes up my position and starts telling husband - stop, give him a chance to help. Not being an agent the amount of information I have access to via the computer is limited but I eventually send them on their way at a lower stress level. I'm glad the wife stepped in, because I was about to politely tell the husband I wasn't there to take abuse from him but was willing to help...until he went to far.

Sadly, passengers often give me, or pilots in general, a lot more credit than agents and feel comfortable giving agents a ration of grief. So off to the gate I go. I'm pretty calm, even handed and most folks sense that.

Some folks, despite the best efforts, "self select themselves to be removed". That's a term I use in briefing my crews. When passengers get removed from my flight I'm usually the one that tells them. Face to face. The people who can't get a clue(U.S. slang about realizing the situation they are in) get removed and life for everyone else is better.

777-"They can be calmed by an acknowledgement of their situation and a pledge to try to put it right. Put your face on the solution and they will always be with you."

"There you go again"(famous U.S. quote). Sorry, some people are idiots, *ssh*les, drunks, you name it. Nothing you say or do can solve their problems.

777-"I do get the impression that in the good ole USA you see the passenger as your enemy, not the person paying your salary. Just put yourself in their position. Do you want lame and anonymous excuses over the PA or a real and visible 'saviour' on the day? Your role as a Captain should encompass all aspects of the operation, not just flying the metal from A to B. Seeing the passenger as your friend might be a good start."

Some of the folks in the industry do have problems dealing with passengers. Why they stay in the business is beyond me.

I don't hide and don't pass the buck. Unfortunately somedays there is no 'savior'. You won't catch me trying to hide from the folks on that day, especially with a NY crowd that thinks they can take it out on the F/A's or agents.

Next time I read about a brawl, drunken behavior, or similar problems on a non U.S. carrier I hope you chime in with "if only a leader had stepped up.":oh:

[Wangja]

Many non-pilots would love to walk out of their workplace citing "hostile envirnment".

[Airbubba]

'Hostile work environment' has a legal connotation in U.S. employment law, see:

Hostile work environment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_work_environment)

Fortunately, there tend to be plenty of attorneys on the MIA-LGA sector.:)

[BlueTui]

In my experience as one of the poor sods stuck the wrong side of the flight deck door, Customers are less hostile when they have information, and the correct information at that. Whether it be a broken lightbulb in the exit lighting or a tragic road traffic accident.

So so many ground staff feel/think that less information is more and by saying "its delayed" and running off will give them the least hassle rather than saying "your flight is delayed due to the operating crew being delayed on their last flight" or your flight is delayed due to technical difficulties, and to ensure your safety we are arranging an alternative option, this will mean your departure is approximately XX:XX"

I know when i've operated ex-UK and had UK handling agents who have given the customers the correct information vs the inbound customers who know jack S**T because (usually IBERIA) have F****D off i've had less hassle from the outbound customers.

INFORMATION is the key.

But jeering and rude behaviour regardless of reason, is not acceptable.

[Roadtrip]

The Captain and crew were 100% correct in refusing the flight. Given a hostile mob environment, the Captain would have been negligent in the extreme and in clear violation of the FARs to allow them on-board the aircraft.

This kind of crap continues because it is too often tolerated. There needs to be a highly visible crack-down on the louts, drunks, and yobos and those people, at the airline's discretion should be placed on a government sanctioned DO NOT FLY list.

Let's see how the jerks like taking the bus and the rest of us can see how pleasant it is to not have those creeps around.

[Wangja]

'Hostile work environment' has a legal connotation in U.S. employment law, see:

Hostile work environment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A hostile work environment exists when an employee experiences workplace harassment and fears going to work because of the offensive, intimidating, or oppressive atmosphere generated by the harasser based on race, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, veteran status, or, in some jurisdictions, sexual orientation, political affiliation, citizenship status, marital status, or personal appearance,

This does not seem to apply.

[skydriller]

Wobbleplank,

Thanks for the reply, thats reasonable and I should have made the connection of missed slot myself, as you can imagine, the way it was said by the CC didnt lead me to make the link.

As you said, shame the anouncement didnt add the bit about the tech-glitch delay causing the TO slot to be missed etc. It would have totally avoided the negative feeling.

I think that with people flying more and more these days, airlines can no longer just give out any old excuse and expect their customers to accept it, because they may actually have an inkling as to what "may" have happened from past experience....(even if that may be wrong).

Regards, SD..

[BenThere]

It's not smart to give 'any old excuse' as a reason for the delay. There's probably a pilot, mechanic or ATCer in the back who will call bullsh1t.

Part of respect for the passenger is to, within reason, simply and frankly inform them what is going on, being careful not to cause undue alarm to nervous pax.

Give an estimated fix time, but emphasize it is just a guess or you'll be held to it as 'just another lie' if the fix doesn't happen on time.

[wobble2plank]

Personally I abhor trying to fob off the passengers with excuse number xx from the big airline book of excuses and I feel that paying passengers have a right to know the real reason behind delays.

On a fair few occasions I have gone up to the gate desk and made announcements there. I feel that if the information is given early enough that there will be significant delays then any passengers who may not wish to then travel can make that decision informed and early and it gives us the chance to offload baggage if required. In my experience businessmen, a solid backbone of my company's revenue payers, want info early as they might miss their planned meetings thus making the trip pointless. I have been onboard other carriers as a passenger when we were herded onto the aircraft on schedule, doors closed and locked, off pier and remote holding before we were told there would be a three hour slot delay! I would like to avoid that scenario whenever possible.

Communication is indeed the key, the problem exists within this scenario is 'did the crew feel that their explanations would be adequately received, and thus the situation, when on board, calmed?'. I would probably guess not.

Enjoy

[xfeed]

Too many of the non-pilots posting here just don't get it at all and should shut up for once in their lives and listen. It has been repeatedly explained to you that aircraft/crew being delayed are not the fault of the crew. I won't waste my time explaining again some of the reasons that have already been mentioned here. READ THEM!

When are passengers, especially snotty Americans, going to realise that the world does not revolve around you? There are too many factors that must be considered and if you were smart enough and exercised some common sense you would expect some problem to arise each and everytime you make travel arrangements. It's simply the nature of the industry. Weather & technical problems are just some of the things that cause these delays.

Stop being so pig-headed. If you feel you are being "lied" to in the terminal by ground staff about the reason for the delay remember they are GROUND STAFF or perhaps MANAGEMENT. You are not being "lied" to by the cabin crew nor the flight crew so taking it out on them is a sure sign that you are ignorant! Full stop.

[wobble2plank]

xfeed,

That's a very contentious line to take if you do indeed wish a career within the airline industry.

The passenger is, along with cargo, the revenue payer. Without them we wouldn't get off the ground and wouldn't get paid, don't forget that. As such they have a right, along with any other service industry, to complain about poor or sub standard service. I wouldn't begrudge them that at all as I have been on the receiving end of poor service many times when traveling.

If a passenger complains to me and I feel their complaint is just then I will explain the reasons for the 'event', for want of a better word, apologise as best I can on behalf of the company and direct them to write their complaint in to the company.

Most people just want to be heard when things go drastically wrong and giving them the time to be heard can often be 95% of the solution.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER alienate your revenue payers, it will come back to bite you.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Too many of the non-pilots posting here just don't get it at all and should shut up for once in their lives and listen. It has been repeatedly explained to you that aircraft/crew being delayed are not the fault of the crew. I won't waste my time explaining again some of the reasons that have already been mentioned here. READ THEM!

Too many of the non-customers posting here just don't get it at all and should shut up for once in their lives and listen.

The customer doesn't give a **** which of the supplier's individual employees or subcontractors has screwed up. They don't care. They get really pissed off when supplier's employee says "none of my business, guv, it was somebody else". The customer's business is with the supplier: if the supplier can't sort out the interactions between their staff and subcontractors properly so as to deliver the expected service then that is the supplier's problem, and for any employee of the supplier to try to disclaim responsiblity and blame it on someone else is simply taking the piss.

[Roadtrip]

A significant problem with US carriers is that management has, for the most part, totally alienated the employees with compensation cuts while management takes gigantic bonuses. Combine this with a failed government and failing economy and you have a situation where the entire industry is going down the tubes. The airline workers have now taken on management's attitude of just hanging-on and milking it as much as possible till the system entirely fails (next winter by my estimate), then jump ship. Airline workers are treated like day-labor now and it's no surprise that they have the same attitude towards customer service that management does.

[llondel]

I've often heard the reason for delays being cited as "late arrival of the inbound aircraft". This is usually obvious on a lot of EU flights where the same crew stick with the same aircraft through several sectors, so it's obvious by looking out of the window that there's no aircraft yet. If the crew arrive on a different flight then it's a lot less obvious.

[Abusing_the_sky]

If the pax are paying my wages, can i have a raise then?:}

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If the pax are paying my wages, can i have a raise then?
If you improve the service, yes.

I went on a trip by aeroplane a couple of weeks ago because it was cheaper than the train. But I took the train home, despite the higher cost, because the experience of flying was just so awful, and what with the check in time and the security queue time and the delay for unscheduled refuelling and the delay for a new slot it was actually slower than the train. Plus the plane didn't have a mains socket and free wi-fi like wot the train did.

So ... on that route, get rid of the queuing and the delays, so that the plane is actually faster than the train, and you can get away with putting the fare up to somewhere nearer the train fare, and thus have a pay rise - easy peasy!:ok:

[wobble2plank]

Gertrude,

Get rid of the muppets who want to blow us all up then the queues will be shorter :ok:

[chuks]

I am working in the "small airplane" end of the biz now, although I have worked as a regional airline pilot as well. I do five on/five off so that I get to enjoy a minimum of ten regional and ten medium-haul flights as SLF per annum, plus the obligatory German holiday trips, turning around to fly back to hot, sunny places except this time I have to pay instead of get paid, as if that should make a diffo.

This security thing has squeezed whatever pleasure was left in flying right out of it. Shoes off, belt off, pockets emptied, all my goodies disappearing down the X-ray machine while I am stood there in my socks on a grotty floor waiting to go through the metal detector... The flight could go right on the minute after that and I would still be unhappy, so that the crew has an uphill struggle, these days.

It is the little things that really count, like paying for a glass of water. Turns out that under EU law you just tell the hostie that you need to take your medicine, washed down with a glass of water. It is a very tiny pill, invisible in fact.

Given that on my aircraft there is just me and an FO, there is no hiding, even if I wanted to. Never mind the charming fantasy that any situation can be defused with a nice, honest demeanour. Some passengers just think that buying a ticket allows them to be im-flamin'-possible, full stop! Most of them, yes, if you give them an honest explanation that helps a lot but there are still an awful lot of jerks out there loose in the world, what seems to be more than ever...

Has anyone ever flown a charter for a Porsche-drivers' club that was delayed? I would like to know what that is like.

[xfeed]

wobble2plank,

I'm not trying to alienate passengers. What I am trying to say is why should a hard-working flight crew, that may have had a few sectors and delays down-line due to weather or tech, have to take any ****e from sheeple who don't have a bloody clue what they have been through? I don't give a toss what the SLF were told as to the delay they have no right to berate them once they arrive. If they have issues then contact the airline and lodge a complaint. The fault was not with the men and women on the line.

Gertrude the Wombat,

I have the pleasure of both flying as a pilot (PPL) and passenger so I see both sides. My father was a 747 captain for many years and I used to ride up front with him when it was allowed so I do know the delays that occur. The reason why "The customer doesn't give a ****" is because they believe the world revolves around them so why should they care who's fault it is; they have just been f****d, right? Sheeple mentality.

My comments are not a total disregard of the passengers and their revenue. It's the total disregard of tossers who only think about themselves. Read post #20 by HXdave. A very similar thing happened to the crew my father was with. Enough said.

xfeed

[Dont Hang Up]

Get rid of the muppets who want to blow us all up then the queues will be shorter


The "muppets" have tried and succeeded in blowing up both planes and trains.

Mercifully, for train travel, a sense of perspective has remained in how to cope with that fact. For air travel, rampant paranoia prevails. State led rather than operator led I grant. But completely (forgive the pun) off the rails.

If fuel prices stay high and the air travellers continue to be treated like prisoners returning from a day in the community then short and medium haul operators can watch their custom take the land route. Except in the UK of course where rail travel is an ongoing farce that seems perversly determined to be slower and more expensive than a Cessna 152 with engine trouble.

[daikilo]

The thread raises a key issue which is contact between the aircraft crew and the paying SLF.

The flight crew have a clear task: accomplish all tasks associated with the flight of the aircraft. Corporate PR is an add-on.

The cabin crew have a clear task: accomplish all safety and service tasks associated with the flight, in that order. Corporate PR is an add-on.

It does raise an issue of discontented SLF. I strongly suggest that ground-ops should diffuse any such issues and if they cannot then they should not allow aircraft boarding for such discontented SLF.

d

[Jimmy Riddle]

Major consideration here.......pax want to get somewhere.....we are the only people capable of taking em......frankly I think flight deck attitude as reported sucks........pax are p*ssed off crew are p*ssed off,.....any sensible skipper would've defused the situation and sorted the problem out.......it's what we're paid to do guys......aren't we.....?
There are deeper questions about seniority and maturity........but I'm sure you've got 'em covered........right.....?

[daikilo]

Colleagues, No, we have standards,

Those who do not comply with the required boarding profile will be excluded prior boarding or at latest prior gate departure.

The flight will take place for those who do. Apply this a few times and likely you will not have a recurrent problem.

d

[[Steve]]

When I purchase tickets to go somewhere I try to make sure I'll get to my destination the day before I have to be there. Likewise I try to ensure more than the minimum of time between connecting flights. I know that delays can happen and I don't want to get stressed out.

I spent about 24 hours in the domestic side of San Francisco airport after the return of my international flight. Hey it wasn't pleasant and I missed connecting flights. Speaking to one of the cabin crew later, they probably had a worse time than the passengers.

Even though I pax quite a bit, I still try to treat every trip as an adventure. Looking at it that way, the minor annoyances, delays, problems, etc that crop up from time to time can be viewed as "gaining valuable experience" :-) It's a shame that so many people take their own plans so seriously -- lighten up, your attitude *ISN'T* going to make it any faster or more comfortable.

I'm sure that no crew are *all* going to sleep in. If one did the others would get them up. So a crew arriving late cannot logically be as a result of some individual selfish action.

I fully support whoever took the decision not to fly this day. I've seen passengers get ugly with crew and I'm full of praise for them being able to handle even 1 of them. But a planeload would be a bloody nightmare.

I think that some of those passengers needed their attitudes adjusting.

[Carrier]

Quote: “Except in the UK of course where rail travel is an ongoing farce that seems perversly determined to be slower and more expensive than a Cessna 152 with engine trouble.”

The above seems to be rather unfair. Give credit where it is due!

Over the past three or so weeks a significant item in both UK and International news has been the need for five new high speed rail lines in the UK to cope with ever increasing pax traffic. Over the past decade rail pax numbers have increased over 40% to 1946 levels, about the highest ever annual total. This is expected to increase by a further 30% over the next decade, plus of course any additional traffic diverted from UK internal airlines by the actions of some of the clowns above.

Another current article confirmed the need by pointing out that at peak times now each UK rail pax often has less space on crowded coaches than is legally required for animals travelling by rail. Since the mid-1960s the UK railways have been a great success story. To some extent they have been a victim of their own success in attracting new customers; thus the need for new lines and other actions to cope with the huge traffic increases.

Carrier and Mrs C used the UK rail system fairly extensively on several visits to England during the past three years. With or without BritRail Passes we considered it great value for money. It was fast, comfortable and convenient - except on Sundays when “Engineering” wrecks the system. We had none of the wasted time associated with air travel, there were no security hassles, no having to book ahead, no check-in hassles and nobody was concerned with how many pieces of luggage we had or what they weighed. Catering was good, both on trains and at major stations. We often made an early start and had breakfast on the train. It was good on Midland Mainline but less desirable and pricier on Virgin Trains. Overall, what a pleasant way to travel! The airline industry could learn a lot from the UK rail system.

Of the services we used Midland Mainline was definitely the best, followed by Central Trains, then there was a gap to Southern and South Eastern. Bringing up the bottom in customer service, inconvenient provision for luggage on long-distance trains, insolent and evasive staff attitude, poor time-keeping and predatory pricing was Virgin Trains. We could not help commenting that the anti-customer attitude and customer service levels of most airlines have been faithfully replicated in Virgin Trains. It’s almost as if it is run by airline “management” or those who wish to ape it!

[VAFFPAX]

Carrier, considering that I pax with First Great Western (FGW) and Virgin Trains (VT) quite a lot, I have to disagree with your assessment that VT is the worst. Sadly, us in the western corridor have to deal with FGW, and they are worse than VT used to be in their bad days (after bringing in the XC diesels and before the Pendolino).

The VT Pendolino services are arguably some of the best services I've had the pleasure of travelling on, certainly bending better than TGV or Eurostar do (both TGV and Eurostar 'bend' based on grading, not actively tilting like the Pendolino does), but worse than a Shinkansen.

When FGW finally gets round to completing its renovation schedule of the MkIII carriages on their HST125's á la GNER while improving service reliability (they are terrible on that), then I might change my mind. The FGW Thames Turbos are in a pittance of a state, and more often than not we are delayed out of Paddington because of some reason or other on the service, not because of signalling (which the Reading-Paddington corridor is infamous for).

Generally, the state of British rail is good. South West Trains (SWT) do a reasonable job, GNER before Sea Containers went bang and they lost the franchise was not bad. Funnily enough, West Anglia Great Northern (WAGN) wasn't too bad either with their fast services. Their local stopping services left much to be desired. And since First took over the franchise for First Capital Connect (FCC), the service has gotten worse.

S.

[Beausoleil]

Good on the crew.

I would like to think that I too would have turned around and walked off refusing to carry this rabble.

Who the hell do they think they are?

When they (the pax) inevitably turned up (eventually) for their business meeting did their peers, colleagues or clients boo them?

Did their spouse's / kids abuse them?



I don't admire their behaviour, but if you think aircrew are the only people who ever get abuse at work for things that aren't their fault, you're deluded.

So yes, I bet some of them did get abuse from clients, bosses and perhaps even family. That's what life is like. If we all just downed-tools and walked out whenever some client or boss got arsey, the world would grind to a halt. It doesn't make it right, but it happens to everybody.

[Beausoleil]

Its about time passengers stopped shoving used nappies in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used sick bags in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped dropping garbage all over the cabin floor.
Its about time passengers stopped coming on board pissed.
Its about time passengers stopped abusing airline crew.
Its about time passengers took a bath.

Its about time passengers realised that their cheap fares are part funded by eroded pay and conditions of airline staff. They pay cattle truck prices, so they get a cattle truck to travel in.

How about the crew booing and jeering late passengers on board.


Exactly. Pretty soon airlines will stop paying passengers to fly. Wait a minute...

(I'm not condoning the behaviour you list, but it is not a symmetric relationship and I wonder if you take the same attitude when the cheap consumer goods you can buy because other people work for peanuts turn out to be low standard?)

[mercurydancer]

As SLF I would like to offer a few comments and also to dispel a myth that has been cited on this post. Patients do abuse doctors and medical staff on a frequent basis. I'm a senior nurse and I have been attacked on three occasions this year and dragged patients out of consultations with surgeons more frequently than that. It disturbs me when a "customer" or patient - feels that their vociferous complaint means that they are entitled to use intimidation to air their greivances.

As a passenger (quiet put occaisionally pissed if the flight is late - but even quieter when pissed) may I say that I hate being with obstreperous, noisy, aggressive passengers. I dont think I'm alone in thinking that. We trust that airline staff be they ground crew or cabin crew will act in the case of aggression from passengers. I am well aware of the laws and restrictions regarding behaviour on aircraft and within airports and would not do anything even close to fall foul of them, but I do expect action to be taken when others dont abide by those same rules. I have to board that aircraft too and I want to know that nothing will kick off with any passengers on my flight. Unfortunately cabin crew do seem to aquiesce to "demanding" passengers to the detriment of compliant passengers. If the flight in quesiton did not take off then I would think that there were many passengers who were quiet and not abusive that were affected by the crew's decision and did not deserve that treatment.

A 1 hour delay is neither here nor there and if connecting flights are so tight then a little more thought is needed when you book the flights. As for longer delays you run into biological constraints. If I dont get food or drink within about 4 hours I am going to be more than restless. If the delay is more than 8 hours then needing somewhere comfortable to sleep is needed. If the airline is concerned about these basics then I can accept a delay. If they arent then they shouldnt be taking passengers.

As some have said, communication is paramount. I dont want to get on to an aircraft that doesnt pass safety tests. If the aircraft has a fault then it is vital that the people waiting in the departure lounge know that. Display boards are good but a person saying what the problem is is better. I can give an example... Virgin Atlantic to JFK from Gatwick. Communication was superb. It was a long series of tech faults but at one point one of the ground staff team stood on a table and described the problems encountered. I felt that we were sharing the frustrations of the flight crew rather than being antagonisitic towards them. 9 hour delay but kept fed and watered it wanst so bad.

I dont think that managerial issues wuold be treated with much sympathy though. If a crew wasnt available because of rest time the I would question the planning of the airline. Even then I would accept that if I was at an airport away from the airline base then a little leeway would be understandable. If it was flying BA from Heathrow or Virgin from Gatwick or AA from JFK then I would have little tolerance.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Not much more pax worries for me--when I get checked out on the FBO's Cirrus:ok:

[broadreach]

Difficult to imagine the situation that crew were in. Just a few booers and hissers, half the pax, all of them? How long did it take the crew to decide it was a "hostile environment", who decided, did the captain try - or even contemplate - an explanation? Etc etc etc. The only parties one can feel judgmental about are the idiots who booed.

And a personal impression of BA: always good explanations to pax for inconveniencies, e.g. Wed 9 Jul BA0247 LHR/GRU, no air conditioning during boarding, delay completing cargo then delay crossing 27L, all clearly explained and apologised for without any hint of blaming someone else.

[flynerd]

Its about time passengers stopped shoving used nappies in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped shoving used sick bags in the seat pockets.
Its about time passengers stopped dropping garbage all over the cabin floor.
Its about time passengers stopped coming on board pissed.
Its about time passengers stopped abusing airline crew.
Its about time passengers took a bath.

I cannot count the number of times I have looked for some respectable receptacle to place some trash whilst in flight. And surely this must be the reason other SLF trash the aircraft... Occasionally a CC will stroll down the aisle with a big plastic bag, but never at the right time. So why do not Boeing/Airbus place a trash chute near the toilets. And yes , on long flights morons do cart trash to the toilets, then cause blockages there due to inappropriate use of the dunnys, and they get closed. This is always a problem on long haul flights, even in J class.

[Roadtrip]

There's always a trash container in the galleys. Just drop it off when getting up to use the lav. This ain't rocket science. I'll bet the kind of people that trash an airplane have houses that look just like it. The trailer-trash think it's normal to look like that.

And I'll bet that a lot of the jerks that treat airline employees like crap, also treat their own families that way.

The sad truth is a lot of people don't care one bit about anybody else except themselves. Common courtesy and manners are thought to be quaint and irrelevant in today's society. One big reason is that there are no consequences to bad boorish behavior. If unruly passengers got banned from flying the airline, they might behave differently, even if not for the right reasons.

[[Steve]]

I'll bet the kind of people that trash an airplane have houses that look just like it. The trailer-trash think it's normal to look like that.

Then why is it that Business Class always seems to look like a bomb hit it compared to economy?

[ZFT]

Then why is it that Business Class always seems to look like a bomb hit it compared to economy?

1) Probably because a high percentage of F/J passengers are used to others cleaning up after them in their everyday lives?
2) There really is nowhere to deposit it (other than taking it to the galley as has already been stated).

Fortunately on TG which I utilise for 90% of my flights, the CC are extremely good at regularly collecting discarded rubbish .

[CityofFlight]

If I could just offer another voice of opinion as SLF.

I've been traveling since a child of the 60's. I continue to dress like I've always done: Professional and/or respectable As always, I continue to smile and greet cabin or flight crew as I board, as if they are the most respected members of my trip--of which I believe they are. Over the recent years, I continue to experience a decline in crew who are surly and actively treat passengers as if they are the nemesis to their otherwise good day.

I push the call button and nothing happens. I ask for a pillow or blanket and no one ever comes back to say yes, we have, or no, we don't. "Do you happen to have a bandaid...pain reliever"?... no return of cabin crew, AGAIN. I continue to give pleasantries upon my arrival to intended destination. I barely get eye contact upon departure. And I'd like to add that I fly at least 12 times a year on buisness.

Folks...do I have to be in 1st or Business Class to get decent service? I think PAX may be giving what they get these days. Maybe there are two sides to the story.

Feedback welcome...

C of F

[Nigd3]

A few thoughts that spring to mind on this thread, some of which have been stated before:

1- Correct information, correct information, correct information....to pax, crew and ground staff.
2- A reliable infrastructure to distribute this information is a must.
3- Pax mob reaction to late start is pretty endemic within society today. Not sure who to blame for that one but it seems to be the way things are going.
4- Crew reactions from some posters are also off mark. You are in a service industry and if you do not provide a good service (your fault or not) then dont expect good reactions, even if they are way out of line.
5- From my experience, even if you complain directly to an airline about its lack of service, at most expect a standard "thank you for your letter.....your feedback is being looked into......", then nothing.
6- Airlines and industries as a whole, are always looking at ways to cut costs as they have shareholders to report to, so dont expect thoughts 1, 2 or 5 above to get addressed in the near future.

[Capt.KAOS]

taking about communicating

At Amsterdam Schiphol, when collecting your luggage, the display now shows:

Flight number and origin
1 Luggage being unloaded from the plane, or
2 Luggage all unloaded from the plane, or
3 Luggage expected at this belt at ..:.. (time), or
4 All luggage now on the belt

It s called information...... It s what s needed.... timely accurate and honest information

Gone is the stress, back are the smilesAlso the information for the collecting party at Schiphol like "flight nr landed at.... hrs" followed by "flight nr at the gate at....hrs" is very useful, especially when landing at the Polderbaan requiring a 15 mins taxiing.... Now if they can get also the exit right (regular miss a party between exit 1 and 2), then all's well... ;)

The timely and right information always gives a peace of mind.

[EXLEFTSEAT]

What to say? I am an old retired pro and now just a SLF. Back in my days it was an honor to fly an airplane, we would never be late. Back in my days the FAs were required to meet certain rules. Back in my days passengers were different. However, now in the U.S. everything is union organized and sort of out of touch (and I expect to be beaten up for that ). It's an ugly situation and nowadays it is pc incorrect to talk about it. But just today on another website I asked the question, what would happen if a U.S. company would start a LCC International carrier, like Qantas with Jetstar or like BA with Openskies. Yes, it is good to be an "old" guy with long memories, PA/TW/EA/BN. Those were the good times. But that's a long time ago. It will never be the same.

[Roadtrip]

Whole crews don't show up late unless it's a company scheduling problem or a delay ripple through the day. That's not driven by the union or the individual crewmembers.

From my direct and current experience, it's the aircrews that are going well above what's expected to try and move the aircraft, despite inept managers that don't ensure the required resources are there to prep and move the airplane . . . mx, ground push crew, etc. I have not had a crew induced delay in many years, despite the fact that managers will sometimes secretly lie and code a flight late due to crew. Even if the pilots wanted to cause delays, they don't have to. All they need to do is "do their job" and watch the management-created buffoonery around them.

You're right. It's not the good ol' days when the Captain had authority in the air and on the ground. Management see pilots as nothing but bus drivers that have no authority on the ground.

[anartificialhorizon]

Quote:
Then why is it that Business Class always seems to look like a bomb hit it compared to economy?


Most likely due to all the crap they give out before and during the flight

- Broadsheet newspapers (probably about 100 pages +)
- Eye shades
- Headsets
- Slippers
- Washbags
- Blankets
- Extra pillows
- Hot and cold towls

plus all the usual seat pocket goodies such as inflight mag, duty free mag, inflight entertainment guide, sick bag etc etc...

And that's not to mention the meal service with 3 sets of cutlery, toothpicks, pepper and salt cellars, napkins, tissues.

No wonder ! Where the hell do you put all this stuff...? Usually ends up on the floor, down the side of the seat, in the seatback pocket.

Anyone ever weigh this stuff ?

[45989]

They paid for it!

[anartificialhorizon]

Fair comment 45989.

However I would have thought most business class travellers want the seat and are not too bothered with all the other stuff that gets thrown at them (literally on some carriers....)

Anyway back on thread !

[Glamgirl]

From the little information we have about the situation in question, I think the crew did the right thing. If I was in the same situation, I'd probably do the same. The reason why I would make this decision would be that a bunch of angry passengers is bad enough on the ground when you can get away from them, but when you're stuck in a silver tube in the sky with them, with nowhere to go... Not a good situation at all.

Yes, I'm all for open and honest communication. I must say though, that from experience, a lot of passengers don't listen to announcements (possibly quite a lot of the announcements are done in "mumble" language as well). They may not be at the gate at the time of the announcement, or they may be busy doing something else at the time.

I say this, because of experience. Some months ago, we had to operate with 2 crew on a 737 (less than 99 pax). The role then for cabin crew is to be on door watch, and we are not required to do any cabin service. I asked the ground staff to make an announcement (and what to say) in the lounge, so pax could get coffee/food etc before departure. I was at the gate when the announcement was made. Still, when the Captain mentioned the situation on the introduction pa, half the pax groaned and said "they could've told us at the gate!". I ended up giving a detailed explanation of the situation after take off, and even though speaking as clearly and slowly as possible (without sounding patronising), pax still didn't listen.

There are a lot of pax in this world who will not believe whatever we say to them in regards to delays. So many people assume that we are going to lie to them anyway, so why even try to believe it? I've had diversions due to fog, where (after a 15 hr duty due to weather) the pax tell me that there is no fog in XXX as they've just talked to their partner at home and it's fine there (home being 30 min away from the airport, forgetting that fog can be very local). That is when I have to explain that I really don't want to have a delay either, and surely we wouldn't divert an aircraft just to inconvenience our pax?

The last thing we as crew want, is delays. It adds extra hassle to our day (same as for pax). We end up late home (try to explain again to the babysitter) and get hassle from pax. I understand that delays are annoying, I truly do, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Tech delays are self explanatory to most, although some pax still don't get it, thinking we can just get another plane from somewhere. ATC delays are mightily annoying, but the flow of traffic is controlled for a reason, therefore we can't take off and land whenever and wherever we like.

I'm very happy to explain to any pax why we are delayed (not to be confused with being happy about the delay). However, I will not be shouted at, verbally abused or similar. If someone tries to shout at me, I calmly and politely explain that I will talk to them in 5 minutes when they've calmed down.

Yes, we need more communication, training and listening skills. All of us, from crew to ground staff to passengers.

Gg

(once again apologising for length of post)

[411A]

Some months ago, we had to operate with 2 crew on a 737 (less than 99 pax). The role then for cabin crew is to be on door watch, and we are not required to do any cabin service.

Not required, eh?
One wonders, would it be any different if three CC had been present?

Not likely:rolleyes:

[Glamgirl]

411A,

What I meant by "required" is that we tell the pax that there won't be any cabin service (meals/drinks) due to crew sickness or similar (whatever the reason we're going 2 crew). We are not "required" by the company to provide a cabin service with a 2 crew operation on the 737. The reason we can operate it with 2 crew (from out stations only) is to bring the aircraft home.

If we had 3 crew on board, yes, we are required by the company to provide cabin service, it is in our contract.

Hope this clarifies for you.

Gg

[Rosiemoto]

our flight crew was booed in Oakland during a LAS-BUR-HNL flight that diverted from BUR to OAK. Folks probably woke up at 3 a.m. to get to the airport, and hadn't been fed by noon the same day.

That was with a carrier that doesn't exist anymore, but had typically poor planning.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Glamgirl, that is pretty interesting. In the states you have to have the required cabin crew per the number of seats certificated on that airplane. For example a 737 with 128 seats would have to have 3 F/As, no matter what the pax load was. You can't drop a F/A and just do a minimum service. It's one F/A for 19 to 49 seats, 2 for 50 to 99, and one additional for each 50 seats certified on that aircraft.

[Mike Read]

Years ago I flew for a company (a predecessor of Ryanair but UK registered) with a Rombac BAC 1-11 which was fitted with 102 seats and therefore needed three cabin crew. Occasionally we ended up short of that number and a bright spark suggested that if we took out the last row of three seats we would be legal with only two cc. Initially this worked well until our flight ops inspector ruled against it saying that they had been trained to work as a three woman team and by reducing to two safety was compromised. The rule stated that the number of pax was irrelevant. What mattered was the number of seats and the crew had to match that. And in our case we couldn't just reduce the number of seats on an adhoc basis without a full cabin crew retraining course.

[Glamgirl]

It is per "body" on board, not per seat fitted to the aircraft. That's what our manuals etc say. Bringing back an aircraft with only 2 crew (737) is only in exeptional circumstances and not something that happens often (for me, only twice in my 10 years of flying).

We can do the cabin service if we wish, but we don't tend to do it. Not because we're evil or lazy, but because it is more important to do safety duties. The airline will usually give the pax a voucher for refreshments either before departure or after landing (better than nothing I guess...)

Anyways, back to topic...

Gg

[Liftr]

I read this thread, and can only come up with one statement...

"Thank God for the freight business":)

[edunne02]

This is my first post .... submitted with respect to all side-takers in this matter.

Just wanted to note that in business school, I learned 2 indispensable rules of any successful business enterprise:

1. MAKE A PROFIT

2. NEVER FORGET WHO YOUR CUSTOMERS ARE.

Customers (let's call them SLF or PAX for purposes of this discussion) were defined generically as the people who paid your mortgage, put food on your table, put a car in the garage, put the kids through school, paid the alimony... you complete the list.


The airlines are botching Rule 1 and observing Rule 2 only with PA blather:

"We know you have a choice in flying and appreciate your choosing (insert name of airline here)"

Without doubt, airline customers seem occasionally to plumb new depths of coarseness. Allowing their failure to justify breaking Rule 2, leads inexorably to breaking Rule 1, which leads to places where neither the airlines nor passengers want to go.

PS: For those inclined to respond with a "So,what's the point?", may I suggest you could be part of the problem.

[rickshaw1]

Edunne,

How right you are.

FD and CC: Please remember that the far greater majority of SLF are well behaved, quiet and pleasant. Try not to include them with the a$$h****s who cause difficulty.

[Seat62K]

As so many have pointed out, honesty about delays is vital. I remember one delay in particular, caused by a cabin crew member leaving her/his passport at home (easyJet Luton-Madrid, May, 2007 if the crew concerned is reading this!). I can only speak for myself, but knowing the truth made a difference. All too often, though I suspect that where a long delay is expected the reality is sometimes only revealed in "small doses" (e.g., a 30 minute delay is anounced, which becomes an hour, then two....). I can only imagine that the airline thinks passenger reaction will be more muted if the truth is only revealed slowly. In some respects, however, the worst deception is "the flight will depart on time" from staff at the gate when we can both see that fifteen minutes prior to that time the inbound flight has not even arrived!!

[Desertia]

I once waited for a flight that was delayed because the "crew bus was late".

Considering I'd seen all of the crew in the Duty Free shop, in uniform, I considered that a little bit of a white lie.

When you've paid your readies to choose a certain airline, and you get p*ssed about because they decide they want to do a bit of d/f shopping instead of working when they are supposed to, you have every right to moan.

And more importantly, vote with your feet.

You are right that sometimes there is a simple and valid explanation for delays, and sometimes that explanation does not get across, but please let's not forget that there are times when some of those that (and in some cases, quite sneeringly) refer to passengers as "SLFs" deserve exactly what they get.

Whether that was true in this instance, I don't know, but there is no-one here that can automatically assume that in all instances, the people up the front are entirely blameless.

Let's have a bit of balance, please.

[Airbubba]

I once waited for a flight that was delayed because the "crew bus was late".

Considering I'd seen all of the crew in the Duty Free shop, in uniform, I considered that a little bit of a white lie.

And even when you don't have duty free, one idiot will always delay the crew 20 minutes on the way to work because 'I've gotta have my Starbucks'.

[Mark in CA]

A follow-up in today's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/business/22road.html

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

Glamgirl, if you work for a UK airline, the Air Navigation Order (the Act of Parliament regulating civil aviation) mandates the number of cabin crew based on number of passenger seats. Your company cannot legally reduce these numbers- however few passengers are carried (unless "few" equals "none").
If your manuals really do have a procedure to allow this reduction, let us know who you work for, the Flight Ops Inspector will be right over!

[DingerX]

Dunno if that was a follow-up, or a repetition of the general sentiment.
Anyway, I was going to write this earlier, but decided the better of it.

I ride a bit. Maybe once every two months, and a crossing or two of 10W once a year. So, no, I don't have the experience of a professional; just of a poor slob who flies from time to time, and sees some things.
Like being two hours late on a flight from Lisbon due to tech, complicated by the equipment being parked on the other side of the runway. Yes, I have a connecting flight to JFK, and yes, I've been seated in the last row. Supposedly, the BA folks sent agents to lead the transfer passengers, and they did ask people to keep the rows clear for transfer folks. And the rows were clear for the first seven or so to deplane. So then I'm stuck behind a bunch of Brits who are whinging for no particular reason (take pride in it. As an American, I take pride in being a pointless jerk. It's cultural expression, dude. The French swell with pride at gluttony; Italians decry the envy of their neighbors. A gentle(wo)man should have a vice). I finally get out, and nobody is waiting for me. So I race down the terminal (yes, we're parked at the very end of it), passing all the transfer groups except mine on the way to the busses. At some point, I hit a wall. Yes, the fire alarm has sounded, and the fire doors have automatically closed. The transfer groups pile up behind me. Finally, the doors open, and I charge ahead to the transfer bus. But wait, some genius LHR designer has decided to put only escalators down to the bus, and some corpulent family (and I use that term as an American, mind you) from the Midlands has decided to park in the middle of them. So I watch helplessly as the bus leaves. The next bus, of course, is delayed by the full complement of pax from the Lisbon flight, and additionally hampered by the lack of readily available wheelchair equipment for the 90-year-old transfer to Rio. Eventually, the bus leaves, and I get to T1. I go upstairs, and the doors closed five minutes previous. Down to the BA rep, and she says "You could have made that flight," and says that if I want the hope of a standby, I should go to the next (and last) flight to NY, and plead my case.

It doesn't stop there.
I go to the next flight. When the gate opens, I get in line to plead my case. The agent motions to a colleague and says, "can you do me a favor and take this one? I'll owe you one -- they're going to be really nasty."
He takes it, and I say, "So, I gather I'm supposed to get abusive now?"
In all fairness, I got an Economy Plus exit-row seat with an alleged "broken IFEN" unit.


On the other hand, and to explain our mentality, I recently was on a SAS flight from ZRH-CPH. Load factors on this route (LX included) are usually 80-100%), and this was the upper end of that. First they blamed the delay on "late arrival" as the mechanics inspected the NLG well. Then they announced a minor tech problem as they went to look at something up the main gear well. Then the mechs walked away and they started unloading baggage. On spotting that I was fortunate enough to flank to the security side of the crowd for the announcement of the cancellation. I lost my lead by missing the exit door. I dropped 4 positions (plus the three women lucky enough to have small children). That was enough to delay me 45 minutes at the transfer desk. When I left on my replacement flight an hour later, 3/4 of the flight was still waiting in line at the desk. SAS also informed me that the they will only refund and pay penalties on a flight if the passenger does not accept alternate booking; so, on my math, some of those people would have to wait up to eight hours for an alternate solution that would be less than ideal. When they took it, the airline would casually inform them (as they did me) that they deserved no compensation.
And this is for national carriers on a route that has between 6-8 flights a day.

So, sure, passengers are nastier. I prefer to use superior intelligence over being an jerk to achieve my means, but the tension is there, and if anyone bothered to do a study, we'd have a nice monetary quantification of that tension. And I can't speak about Miami, but JFK is decidedly the least pleasant airport for human relations. It's not just the oversubscribed crap on the taxiways (BTW, cheers to the NW folks in the last two weeks for their perfect information at JFK with the regular inbound delays. For the flight that concerned me, they reported over the gate PA that the flight was on final within one minute of when they were cleared to land. And everyone knows the JFK delays aren't NWA's fault; that would be Delta), it's the poorly conceived architecture with the low ceilings, increasing the darkness, noise, and agoraphobia. Even thinking about it, pax and crew alike get belligerent (okay, I'm assuming for crew, but I know they're with me).

So, yes, Joe Sharkey is right. We're all victims of the same process. On regional flights, I often get seated across from the dead-heading pilot. That pilot inevitably sleeps more than I do; and I try to sleep on flights. Practice makes perfect.

But when the system fails so terribly as to make the passengers give a "no confidence" vote to the flight crew before departure, I'm with the flight crew. Don't do it. You can only lose.

/rant

[golfyankeesierra]

Glamgirl, if you work for a UK airline, the Air Navigation Order (the Act of Parliament regulating civil aviation) mandates the number of cabin crew based on number of passenger seats. Your company cannot legally reduce these numbers- however few passengers are carried (unless "few" equals "none").
If your manuals really do have a procedure to allow this reduction, let us know who you work for, the Flight Ops Inspector will be right over!
Probably that the UK CAA is stricter than JAROPS here on the continent, or you're confusing "required cabin crew" (derived from the aircraft Type Certificate Data Sheet, determined for the amount of passenger SEATS) with "reduced required cabin crew" (min 1 CA per 50 PERSONS, and only in exceptional cases, homebound only, etcetc...), as mentioned in our JAROPS approved manual.
So, yes it's possible, at least on our side of the channel.