To all RW personnel. What are your opinions of JHC?

[you'llneverguesswhat]

I would like to know what people's opinions of JHC are? There seemed to be a fair amount of unease over the past couple of years regarding our illustrious command and I am now wandering if, with a change of CO, peoples impressions/experiences have improved?

[minigundiplomat]

The change of CO never really makes a difference. RAF/Army/RN the result is the same.

A risk averse organisation, with too many layers of management, little in the way of leadership, no budget and an ambition to micromanage everything to the point where the wheels fall off.

Apart from that, it's great.

MGD

[Tiger_mate]

I think that the 'purple' training base has proven that when the three services are colocated with a common aim, the single service problems get diluted to the point where they are no longer a factor.

However 'colocated' and 'common aim' are very important words in that paragraph. The cross pollination of rotary members albeit a one way street to a blue uniform should assist in future jointery. A big problem is that JHC is neither one thing or the other and therefore will rank low in the budget priority list of any individual service, in short, sucking the hind one.

I overheard a conversation recently suggesting that within a decade it will be the fourth service. Perhaps such a status is needed sooner rather then later. Along with more 'purple' airbases.

micromanage everything to the point where the wheels fall off.


So thats what happened to the Chinook at Abingdon the other year :E

[ProfessionalStudent]

A risk averse organisation, with too many layers of management, little in the way of leadership, no budget and an ambition to micromanage everything to the point where the wheels fall off.


Bang on mate. :D

At the end of the day, "Joint" means "Army", which means "on a shoestring" which means "unsustainable."

You can keep purple. JHC is a sham of a mockery of a mockery of a sham. It's 3 single service organisations under 1 "Joint" umbrella with 3 sets of single service rules in 1 "Joint" rulebook. It's about as "joint" as North and South Korea...

I think there's much more chance of JHC disolving than of it becoming a "4th service". Well, we can only hope...

[minigundiplomat]

I think that the 'purple' training base has proven that when the three services are colocated with a common aim, the single service problems get diluted to the point where they are no longer a factor.



An answer worthy of a JHC mandarin!

So thats what happened to the Chinook at Abingdon the other year :E

When your on thin ice, don't tap dance!

[spheroid]

If JHC isn't working then what is the answer?

[minigundiplomat]

The British Army go back to running Attack Aviation, an area in which they excell. The RAF go back to managing SH, something they do very well, and the RN go back to floating about pretending the world is flat. Jointery is all well and good, but if you look at JHFA, do we need a Gazelle Pilot or a Navy Observer attempting to micromanage Chinook Ops, second guessing the experienced captain who has the whole picture? Or an SH mate overly involved in the running of the Apache program, making decisions based on very limited experience?
Most of the people in JHC (all 3 services) are very capable, but we mis-employ them out of their area of expertise just to fit in with the JHC ethos. It's pants.

I would be very surprised if JHC sees it's 15th anniversary. Not to mention a little dissappointed.

[you'llneverguesswhat]

I fear that I have unleashed a monster in mingundiplomat!

Surely the simple solution to what people are saying here is give us more aircrew, groundcrew, helicopters and money. I think it has been proven that the soldiers on the ground need tanks, FJ support and aircraft carriers some of the time but they need helicopter support all of the time.

They can even save money by returning all those Sqn Ld pilots hunting for promotion to their old sqns. Another idea would be to discourage people changing things just because they need to look like they are doing something so they too can get promoted.

Oh and 1 more thing. We work bloody hard, how about bringing back the opportunity to play hard as well.

[minigundiplomat]

If JHC has to stay, then I agree with all your points. Lets stop treating it like a staff college, spend a bit more and have a bit more fun. We do work hard!

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Why not make JHC the 3rd Gp under Air Command. This would ensure a more 'joined up' Air structure and would probably mean it would get looked after better than is currently the case under LAND. Leave a Fishhead or Pongo as the the 2* to keep the single services happy and the RAF could hold the 1* DComd slot.

HPT

[wg13_dummy]

This would ensure a more 'joined up' Air structure

But its aim is to serve the Army so handing it over to 'Air' is a step in the wrong direction. Fairynuff, it may get better looked after but I doubt it. The 'Air' command would view it as a burden and do you really think it would get equality in the world of fixed wing and FJs?

The only thing that needs to happen with JHC is to ensure the 'C' actually means Command. As has been said, it doesnt operate like a command, it operates as a Quango with pointless layers of 'management'.

The original aspirations of the JHC was to make it almost like the 'fourth service' but in reality it just became another layer of bureaucracy and a place where people 'disappeared' for a couple of years for no apparent reason.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

WG13

Why would it be step in the wrong direction?

Are you saying that in the days before the JHC the SH Force was not serving the Army? Also, the rest of the RAF seem to be doing a pretty good job of supporting the Army, whether it be dropping bombs or doing other tasks.

Why have 2 command structures involved in running Air support when one can do it?

HPT

[teeteringhead]

I think that the 'purple' training base has proven that when the three services are colocated with a common aim, the single service problems get diluted to the point where they are no longer a factor.
..... plus of course it doesn't belong to JHC ...

...... but to No 22 (Training) Group RAF ........;)

[22/7 Master]

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that JHC is staffed by, on the whole, experienced SH and SH mates who want nothing more that to provide the best service possible to the front line and protect our interests for the future.

Yes, we are cash strapped, who isn't (stand fast Typhoo, CVS and FRES - all 3 services DO need to look to the future). If you need something out of JHC, or feel it is wrong, then voice your opinion, you will be listened to.

[minigundiplomat]

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that JHC is staffed by, on the whole, experienced SH and SH mates who want nothing more that to provide the best service possible to the front line and protect our interests for the future.



You mean officers who want nothing more than to climb the ladder (otherwise they would be flying and nowhere near JHC).


Yes, we are cash strapped,


You mean borderline bankrupt.


voice your opinion, you will be listened to.


Really, now that is interesting. I think JHC may well listen, but will never act. If it was as simple as that, experienced air/ground crews would be flocking to JHC, not to any other command/civvy street.

Your post is unoffensive but very idealistic. Outside of JHC HQ, the streams do not flow with lemonade, and the clouds are not made of marshmallow. However, it is very possible that those you ask tell you this is the case.

[Tiger_mate]

You mean borderline bankrupt.

That applies to British Society across the board. The words of the moment are 'Consumer Freefall' but the bottom line is 'recession'.*

I wonder what public opinion towards OOA would be if they appreciated the cost of it, and how much could be diverted back into the economy if we withdrew from the world police game.

* Judgement made in the fact that the economy is now costing jobs and thus the economy is doomed to get even worse with rising unemployment.

[JHC Wilton]

A mighty fine organisation!
Runs like a well oiled machine and economically too.
I'd be surprised to find any genuine criticism hitting these pages on a subject that has not been previously identified and is therefore the focus of work in progress or a study.
Inter-service rivalry is put aside and offers an ideal opportunity to see how the other services go about their business. It also offers us the opportunity to change our old established ways and introduce best practice across the board.
I can't think of a good example off the top of my head right now but I'm sure over the years something has happened, somewhere that somebody is pleased with.

[ShyTorque]

And there we have the official answer. In writing. Everything is lovely. Nice to hear it, excellent. :ok:

But what's it really like? :suspect:

[minigundiplomat]

But what's it really like?


Like the dying days of the Soviet Union.

[MaroonMan4]

JHC?

Hmmh.....

I do believe that who is in charge does make a difference.

I do believe that the other 2 Services are now 'paying' to bring the AAC up to a 'warfighting' professional aviation community and not just a flying club (less 57 & historically NI).

I do believe that future JHFs should consist of (and be led by) JHC - in that there is not really enough 'command' going on. Also when they have to command a frontline organisation then their staff work just might be a bit more focussed rather than paper based as they see first hand the consequences and results of their decisions back in Wilton.

I do believe that JHC should say no and force the Govts hand - the fisheads Sea King should have been replaced years ago, and the Puma not far behind. And yet saying, 'yes' and putting crews into difficult positions lacks moral courage. IMHO if JHC had said no in the past (with justifiable reasons) then with NATO and theatre commanders crying out for helicopters/lift then the money would have been made availible for a rapid procurement (increased buy of other SH). Sadly those who want careers have allowed that moral courage to be tainted and hence both Puma and Sea King linger on. Putting a 'band aid' over the Sea King with 'gucci' blades or de-rating engines (Swiss Des style!) is still not delivering the capability that the young servicemen and women require when they need to do their job.

I dont believe that all JHC Staff Officers are mahogny bomber desk wollers - but I do believe that some see the SO2/SO1 position as a possible promotion job and therefore allow this to cloud their judgement.

I do believe that JHF HQs is the way ahead and any training or operation that does not put all of the assets under one 'command' roof will be very inefficient and less effective.

I do believe that DHFS is creating a young pilot that eats, breathes and thinks Joint (on the personal level with mates in the bar) - it is up to us on the shop floor to foster and encourage that friendship.

I do believe that JHC HQ is risk averse and stifling training. If in doubt write a rule or regulation to cover their @rses sat comfortably in their offices. Train hard fight easy is being lost in the sea of Duty Of Care, Risk Management, Political Correctness etc. There is now a big 'delta' to 'operational' training and getting out of the back of a C17/C130 on Ops.

I do believe that standards and operational training should be exactly that - standardised. JHC is allowing each Service to Standardise itself when if ever there was a requirement for Joint standards (both pure flying and warfare/combat/tactics) now is the time.

I do believe in JHC but it is very inefficient and could cut its superflous paper work and staff effort considerably if it really worked out what its job is.

I do believe that single service mentality has to stop - there is not enough of us to go around and therefore we need to take the good and the bad from each service and recognise our weaknesses and strengths and openly draw on them. The moment we withdraw behind our single service bastions (forgive the pun) then we are saving nothing but losing a lot. I know that 10 years ago my operation in the Amphib role was cuff and bluff compared to what the Fisheads have taught me - same goes to the Pongos that have really assisted me understand what a Main Effort REALLY is (compared to staff college manual) etc etc. Hopefully we have returned this knowledge by assisting our Army and RN colleagues with COMAOs, RWOETU and TLT etc.

If we really are going to say to Gordon and Swiss Des - Oi, enough is enough, either pay up for new equipment or we stop (before a nasty accident happens), then we will have to be united behind one voice. Harry Stait at Odiham or Benson or the Fishead Boss alone at Yeovs will be lost in the noise.

Whereas a 2 star that has a united and coherent team behind him - all the way to the shop floor will stand a much better chance (providing moral courage outweighs that flashing career caption!).

That is what I believe - but I know I am wrong on many occasions :O

[minigundiplomat]

I actually agree with nearly everything you've said there MM. The only space between us is that I think JHC has been left to fester too long and the lack of trust, leadership etc may be irreversible now.

[MaroonMan4]

Mini Gun,

Do not ask me why - but see my point one - I do believe in the man at the top and although a Fishead I believe he will not stand on ceremony and will start to identify and act on where JHC needs to be if it is going to be a credible organisation that does deliver an 'effect' (and not loads of paperwork, request for returns, or more rules and regulations!).

I look back and see our AVM - lovely bloke, but hardly dynamic and more like your grandad.

The recent Pongo had thruster written all over him and played a very politcial game to ensure his success.

So lets see if the previous good reputation of the Fishead can lead us all through what will be some very difficult years ahead that he has a choice to either lead us through or take the easiest of all COAs - Do Nothing!

:)

[VARIABLE_KNIFE]

So MM4 how would you sort out the 'delta' with regards fighting 'the war' then? How would you solutionise JHC ET/EQ, across all BH, especially given the emotive views of certain JHC FEs thus allowing the JHC to mitigate against the risks of high end flying?

Completely agree that the single service mentality should cease and a single STANEVAL applied across the command. QHTI cse for all elements is a step in this direction and if AIR through the AWC concentrated on the contemporary operating environment on evolutions such as NTLT then we would be progressing.

The will is there but attitudes need to change along with some increase in funding. But, given LANDs OCD with FRES i personally cannot see much money being passed to the poor relation at 2* level in HQ LF.

[Tiger_mate]

Cdr JHC

I listened to an after dinner speech that he gave whilst Deputy Cdr. The audience consisted of young airmen through to seasoned veterans (WO & Commissioned) and his speech was both candid and inspiring. He has a finger on the pulse and is well aware of opinions on the shop floor. The challenge is now for him to do something about it whilst dragging a government sponsored leg iron and having empty pockets.

Wasnt all good though, for he does look like a butler in his dinner rig!!

[minigundiplomat]

So MM4 how would you sort out the 'delta' with regards fighting 'the war' then? How would you solutionise JHC ET/EQ, across all BH, especially given the emotive views of certain JHC FEs thus allowing the JHC to mitigate against the risks of high end flying?



Exactly the kind of gobbledy-gook SO2 speak that has replaced old fashioned decision making and leadership.

Officers sat about at Wilton spouting such bolleaux instead of making a decision, implementing it and staying the course.

Put the MBA book down and grow a set of kahunna's!

MM/Tiger Mate

I have also met the new incumbent and agree he does show promise. Actions will speak louder than words over the next few years.

[Strobin Purple]

MGD, without those much maligned and reviled SO2/1s that you mention you would simply be 'M16Diplomat' or did the Crew-served Weapon fairy just sort it all out overnight whilst you were making decisions and leading?

[minigundiplomat]

I think you will find the M134 was a UOR for OP GRANBY, far pre-dating JHC.
The same SO2's probably had a hand in the somewhat bungled procurement of the new weapons which arrived without any ancillaries such as trigger assy's etc.

You do have me all wrong Strobes, I am not against all SO2's at JHC, some work very hard. However, there are an awful lot of SO2's coasting, killing time with either meaningless staffwork, or working flat out to maintain a constant level of mediocracy until their next promotion.

This is a product of all the extra layers of management that have been referred to by several posters.

Of course, this could be an illusion, and I have got it all wrong. Though that would involve pretty much everyone I work with having got it wrong too. Either way, JHC has an image problem amongst it's own people.

[MaroonMan4]

Variable Knife,

I would try not to solutionise anything! Wherever possible I would try to conduct a mini-analysis before any trg exercise or serial. And when I say analysis please do not think a very time consuming, dissappearing up your bum KPMG civvie contract style - I mean those in charge of the exercise combined with those being 'exercised' establishing exactly what trg outcomes and objectives they want.

I could wax lyrical about why we all do our EQ/ET in seperate locations (less Norway). Why do the Pongos go to the States, we take the delights of North Africa and the Junglies sometime join in or do their own thing on an island in the Med. Wher eis the JHF in that trg - as the activity could be used to train, consolidate, experience and practice planning, battle procedures and Joint tactics. A little bit of synchronisation could see individual skills in the first period (yep you dont want guys down the back when I am practicing my landings in brown out conditions!) - but by the end of the period I do want guys down the back that have their mission that I play a supporting role in.

My mental model/example is TLT/NITEX about 2000 I think - a company from 16 Air Asslt Bde were on the second week of the exercise doing rapid airfield assaults (I am sure that some doctrine guru will provide the correct term!).

Apart from the Pongos thinking that this whole Air Component exercise had been put on specially for this company of infantry (and thereby trying to take it over which did cause some angst with the white force!) the actual addition of these 'players' assisted everyones trg as real people were involved, with real requirements and planning considerations.

Now this is the kind of activity that I believe that JHC could get involved in and not just let the RWOETU boys pick it up every year. Actually get an integrated Land/Air TLT for a 'phase' of the exercise (I know that there are bespoke Air Component SEADs/DEADs and Air Superioty stuff that you wouldn't want a Pongo within a 1000m of a planning desk (ok, maybe the GBAD).

Equally, JHC (i.e. Land) can get greater integration with the AH boys US exercise - not only with SH but also the mud movers.

As someone that likes time at home I am not saying for one moment make more (and longer) exercises, I am saying that reduce the frequency, make the quality better. If the US is the place where the AH boys can 'hose things down' as well as sort out their individual flying skills, then lets use it- together - just as in the BAOR days BATUS was used for collective trg, Norway is now 'joined up' for cold weather and Belize/Brunei for Jungle.

But despite trg integration and effectiveness - which is (and will be) very important in an environment where the current Govt is selling us down the river to keep its head a float - I genuinely believe that if JHC HQ did nothing else but stand up to Land HQ and the Treasury and say - Stop - Stop - Stop with regard to Sea Kings and Pumas, then its conscience would be clear. But that is a personal view I hasten to add.

There is an accident/incident waiting to happen JHC - due to equipment and not the people - it is in your gift to do something about it. I dont care if it is more Wastelands Merlins or non-blade folding CH47s (sorry Fisheads, get over it!) - you and your J5 branch need to do something before you and HM Govt will be held accountable.

Answer your question Variable Knife? For ET/EQ - in the right location, in an integrated trg plan - together - less is certainly more I would suggest!

:)

[cheesedoff]

In my opinion, having dealt with JHC on a frequent basis. It's a circus staffed by monkeys......

In this day and age of cash consciousness, I could think of better ways of spending millions and millions of pounds of tax payers hard earned cash, not jobs for the boys

[Yozzer]

There has been a change recently (End of July) to pre deployment IRT requirements for OOA Ops. Obviously it is not appropriate on an open forum to be too specific about this other than to say that individuals under the Command of JHC will not be allowed to operate under the new (pragmatic) RAF regulations. Therefore Air Command is being overridden by HQ Land and JHC assigned RAF Aircrew do not belong to the Royal Air Force.

Evidence if it was ever needed that light blue suits operating under JHC may as well change their beret to very light blue or indeed mud colour.

[R 21]

This thread could have started by me !!

Where to start.....
The biggest thing that people must remember before JHC was dreamed up SH worked quite happily providing professional and effective support to the Army. More importantly the RAF SH force was a happy bunch of Airmen/Women. Step forward a few years when SHFNI disappeared and JHFNI appeared and Wilton stood up thing got a lot worse.

The command itself is incredibly ineffective. The Army will send its young thrusting SO2 types to JHC in order to show off and climb the ladder. Where all SO2 RAF officers I know would rather chop their own heads off to go there. A tour at Air Command or PJHQ down a bunker is even preferred.

Until the Command does exactly that.....COMMAND the various helicopter forces will never function together they will get bogged down in H+S rules and Risk Assessments and the like.

Just a thought has the helicopter accident rate increased or decreased under JHC? I realise people we say we have never been busier war on 2 fronts etc but I just wonder..........

[cobaltfrog]

Can I just ask how many people who have posted here have actually worked at JHC?

I think you will find that it has SO2's who are frustrated with the same budgetry constraints and constant fights with RP :ugh:and SO1's who have to try and lead said dispondant SO2's and with AD's who are forced to implement ideas they would rather not through their staff. Just an observation!!

[Tiger_mate]

If JHC is to have half a chance then the Aircrew should operate under 'Joint Standards' ie Staneval and its Army / Navy counterparts under one roof with a mission of compromise to enable cross training and exchange postings to occur without drama.

Support, Logistics and Engineering also has to come into line and despite the years in place appears far from common. I stand by my earlier comment about common geographical locations enabling sucessfull jointery, but I have also seen at first hand now just how disjointed JHC is, and perhaps alarmingly how distant from the mother service it has become.

I dont think that Wilton as HQ does the concept any favours and would hope that when and if an SH Superbase is established, that JHC HQ move also.

Witness how often any thread that touches helicopters on Pprune descends into cross service bitching rather then mutual support to improve our lot and that about sums up how effective JHC has been to date.

Being posted to JHC may be a nightmare but it is also a window of opportunity to ensure that the shop floor is heard by Command. We all know that we do not live in a democracy, but equally in addition to getting a job done, one must ensure that the staff and experience will be there in the years to come to achieve the next objectives set by Government. Disregard of harmony and unfair disregard of rates and allowances will do nothing to preserve the workforce of the future.

Bottom line; helicopters are here to stay. Dilution of experience has already cost lives. If we cannot work within our own countries services, how could we possible expect to work with allied nations? FWIW I think that at Sqn level the culteral division between services is too much for any jointery to be effective and therefore agree with the previous posters comments that when detailed with tasking within the command of individual services, ie SHFNI, the job got done effectively. Perhaps it should have stayed that way.

[jumpjumpjohn]

I know a good few very capable and forthright new SO2's who have been sent to Wilton, and over the course of 3 years have forund that however hard you bang your head against the wall, you just can't break it down.

Unfortunately, we are now owned and run by the Army but they still like to pretend that we are paid for by the Air Force. Until one of the services takes full responsibility for all SH then we will continue to have our lives put at risk by outdated kit and poorly-written training and operational directives.

Much as people at JHC hate to hear it, the perception on the coal-face is that the Command is a bunch of a**e-covering rubber-desk-johnnies who are much more interested in ensuring that they don't embaress themselves in front of the general (admiral/whoever) than actually providing a decent evel of leadership and support to the operators. While this isn't actually true of a lot of the people working there (see above), JHC continually seems to be more of a lowest common denominator rather than the sum of its component parts.

All that said, the new Cdr seems like a decent chap and much less inclined to try and hang people/aircraft types out to dry if they fail in any way to meet the ridiculous demands imposed on them by on high.

(I can see that I'm beginning to rant now so I'll go! :O)

[MaroonMan4]

Although I agree with theposts above (not all though), I do think that the majority of the posts have offered 'problems' (i.e. slagging off) and not 'solutions'. I am certainly not a JHC desk woller (but could be in the future) and given that for the first time there is someone in charge that appears to have the respect of all 3 Services, what would your advice be to him and his staff?

First of all start with the cost neutral and free 'easy wins' and then suggest some solutions that may have inherent cost, but the value and 'bang for buck' far outweigh the initial investment.

Your thoughts?

[timex]

One set of Rules covering ALL aspects of Aviation, NVG,Wx limits etc etc.

[cobaltfrog]

When you understand that we are constantly, and I mean constantly, changing solutions to the vagouries of DJtCap and Army RP maybe you will understand just how frustrated we get! We are always trying to do the best for the frontline as we have been there ourselves. We dont get it perfect but then neither does the frontline.
Honestly ask yourself when was the last time you presented the problem with a solution? When did you last phone up your desk officer or invite him to see what is really happening at the core. Yes the new commander is a fantastic man with his head screwed on who does not revolve around bull**** but he can only act on what he hears! (I know I have worked for him for many years!)

Facts:
1. We are strapped - get over it and get on with it!
2. The politicians dont go a bundle on inovation
3. We dance to the tune of the budgeteers, not the frontline -(Yes I know its wa*k!)
4. Just maybe think that some JHC staff officers really do want to see the best solutions delivered and get more frustrated than you when they are dropped or dismissed out of hand.
5. If you feel that strongly have the balls to make an appointment with andy of the AD's, DComd or Comd, you may find they listen even if their hands may be tied.

Fly safe!

[Tiger_mate]

Timex comments Seconded.

.. & where the deciding factor is Safe Operating, which I am quite sure can be done whilst maintaining Operational / Tactical Efficiency.

Followed by a 'Joint' Helicopter Standardisation Unit although obviously 'JHSU' is not for sale as a title.

Training AAC Door Gunners into Helicopter Crewmen and integrating into the crew fully with financial recognition. Doh, that costs!! But it should be so.

Dismantling the grey fleet v junglie divide and incorporating all under the Helicopter Command.

Conjoint Training for all new guys (Pilots & Crewmen) through the whole of DHFS including Multi Eng. (More cost) But beneficial in the long run to achieve 'jointery' aspirations.

Of course they could just accept that the dosh for this will never be available and we could bitch and moan forever and a day, for nothing will change.

If you feel that strongly have the balls to make an appointment ..
Did that with Chief Air Comd, and a logical case was responded to with "Man Up" which of course solved ergh....Nothing!