Should I Quit the HKAOA?

[Fuzzy Math]

I've been a member of the HKAOA for more than 10 years now but I'm seriously considering quitting.

I watched guys leave because they disagreed with the direction the AOA was taking or they didn't want to pay the fees to support the 49ers and a hundred other reasons. My stance was always you don't quit because you just weaken the union.

Watching the last couple of presidents give away so many bargaining chips while promising to talk about pay and then having 3% imposed in a new COS was just too much for me.

People will say you need to be a member for the protection offered if you bend an aeroplane but I've watched this company sack and demote pilots and the AOA has been powerless to do a thing to help them.

Then there's the loss of licence protection. But I can still get that without being a member.

Others will say without the union there will be no one to negotiate on our behalf. But this union has negotiated so badly in my opinion I'd rather they didn't. Giving away 5-4-3, direct entry FOs and Captains, the 49ers deal etc, etc. And all this to get 3% after 7 years and 0% for the A scales.

So as far as I can see the AOA is useless. And I just can't see the point of paying for something that is useless.

Can someone please remind me why I shouldn't quit because I've lost my faith.:{

[404 Titan]

While I disagreed with most of the last committees direction, one must remember the AOA isn't the committee, it is the members and the members either voted in some of the things you mentioned or the company forced it upon us and there was absolutely nothing we could do. I would rather the small cost it is to be a member and have my say than not being a member and not having a say.:ok:

[rhoshamboe]

Hi 404,

Got to disagree with you there mate. I believe it was El Presidente himself that decided that the membership didn't know what they REALLY wanted.

[404 Titan]

rhoshamboe

Yes I recall hearing that comment as well, about third hand mind you. Just as well he didn't stand for another term because the bulk of the membership had had a gut full of the direction he and a few others were taking us. While I don't think the new president or committee can pull a rabbit out their collective hats, simply because of membership numbers, they definately appear to be wanting to listen to the membership this time. A good start in my opinion.:ok:

[moosp]

Stick with it. You do not have to agree with the direction of the committee and their politics. You join the AOA because when you slide gracefully off a runway in a foreign land there will be a legal representative in that country to try to get you out of jail, and to bring you food if they cannot. IFALPA works at times like that.

Your company will be embroiled in a political dance and as you are expendable in the big scheme of things will most likely leave you twisting in the wind.

It is not expensive insurance to be part of a bigger organisation.

[anotherbusdriver]

I get your sentiment. I understand where you're coming from. I felt exactly the same way.

I never quit though, because, at the core of my being I know that: good or bad leadership, collectively we will always do better as a unified body than as individuals fighting against the management alone.

Stick it out, see how this new committee takes on the job. Let them know what you want, let them know how you want to see things go. The sqeaky oil gets the grease, and if the committee knows what it is that the membership body is willing to fight for, then it will make their job so much easier going forward.

Don't give up. Never give up!

[BlunderBus]

i quit after the previous president 'imposed' a double vote on supporting the 49-ers.Obviously the first result didn't satisfy him or the company.if you're expecting protection from anything as a member...think again!
just what..in the the last 8 years.. has anyone been protected from exactly?
5-4-3? back to back long hauls patterns(we used to get LH trip-5 days off, LH trip 5days off and now it's back to back trips and 8 days off...a real bargain...not!)
Free reserve? .. a real deal
O days after Long Hauls...wonderful
Proferring at 1,000/hr but being paid for 'G' days at 2.5% regardless of trip length....awesome.
A load of hogwash in the ops manual about fatigue protection actual rostering totally disregarding it.
Direct entry crew and DE f/o's being upgraded to captain in the blink of an eye....very nice.
Inundated with calls on days off or immediately after returning from trips to 'ask for those favours'...kidding right?
Tell me please what EXACTLY has the AoA DONE for anyone recently.....except appease the company and throw away all our hard won conditions?

[zulapels]

Dear Blunderbus !

I feel sad and less hope when I think about all the stuff we negociated away, wasting at least 3 years of great negociating time and not doing anything to stand up against i.e direct entry commanders and RA 65..

Whats the remedy is the question to blunderbus and the other who quit AOA?

Thanks to everyboby for not hijacking this tread and the brave unselfish people who joined the new GC.:)

[Captain Dart]

HKAOA quitters: now it's just each one of you, individually, of some 2,000 Cathay Pacific pilots, against the Swire Group.
Good luck.

[PanZa-Lead]

People should also understand it's what the AOA have managed to stop the company doing.

Your housing allowance would have been frozen at 32,000 if it was not for the AOA

You would be flying 1000 hours a year if it was not for the AOA.

You would not be able to rquest a trip if it was not for the AOA,

and there are numerous other things the AOA and their lawyers have done to stop management greed.

Sure the AOA is not the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT they have slowed the rot to your COS.

Its the only voice we have and the AOA quitters over the past 10 years have done the most damage to our COS and not the AOA.

A big thank you to the guys who put their time in on the committee trying to help stem the managements greed. You will have my support, and those of my friends here at CX.

I have the Lead

[Saturn]

We had our chance a year ago. Now with the world situation, fuel, economics etc... we have lost our last chance. When all the guys and gals were leaving for Oasis/UPS etc.. we could have done something. When we signed RP04 and then RP07 we gave it all up. We will never have another chance like that. Direct Entry Captains, let me say it again DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAIN'S. While guys get Cat U'd, B C and D'd and others fail, we are hiring DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Oh and just for your info, there were guys who DID apply for the HKG base on cargo and were blown off for the DEC's. The info on those Oasis guys who took the positions no-one else applied for IS FALSE! When the AOA did nothing about that I knew t was over. I have given up on the AOA. I did my part for years and now know it has all been in vain. The violations of just the current agreements have been unprecedented. You can disagree or agree but we had our chance and the AOA will NEVER be able to really do anything for us again. Just wait till the cuts come, housing, pay etc... Shame really and you can thank S.T. He has been very instrumental in the rapid decay of things.

[BlunderBus]

Who said anything about quitting..i just changed unions :)
:cool:

[iLuvPX]

BlunderBus, just looking at the track record of the AOA, makes for an easy decision to leave. There are a few dreamers out there that think the Association is actually protecting them from accidents in foreign countries and the company.

I dont know for a fact, im sure there will be many who would correct me, but has a CX crew ever been involved in an accident overseas where they were incarcerated and needed the AOA to come bail them out??? What would the AOA do even if that happened?

I've been very critical of the AOA, due to it being broken and useless. Im not however, anti-union. I just want one that I believe is looking out for the best interest of the pilot body they represent. We currently dont have that.

So by continuing to support the AOA you are basically saying that you are happy with all they have done for you in the past, and will do the same in the future. Voting with your feet, not unlike those who left the company, is the only way to show the AOA that you are feed up with their dismal performance.

PX

[BusyB]

iluvpax,

the answer to your question is yes.:ok:

[zulapels]

Dear Blunderbus !

Whats the future plan for your new union..?

Also,do they represent you by negociating with the company ?

[Fenwicksgirl]

Mass recruiting on the way!!! The "Surge" worked in Iraq, hope it helps us!!!
Give the AoA another year and if you are not in it, join!!! New GC, new direction!!! Give em a year and see what happens, the company will be after cuts this year and we dont stand a chance if too many of you stand by on the fences, oh and yeah, good luck negotiating by yourself!!
I have been frustrated in the past but am willing to keep trying because i dont like the alternative, the best way to test the AoA is to give them no excuses, 80-90% membership gives us strength, i hope the GC will know what to do with it!!!
By not joining you are playing into the company's hands, maintaining a weak union and easy meat at the negotiating table!!!!!
Non-members= helping company= lost opportunities

[BlunderBus]

...questions i asked myself regarding the AoA :)

[Fenwicksgirl]

Fac6, please let us all know how you intend to negotiate with the company on your CoS???
I conceded that in days gone the AoA havent met our expectations, but there does seem to be some new blood in the GC and i for one will always hold onto hope. I for one wouldnt even know where to start negotiating my own pay rise, so please advise your much better ideas or options.
I cannot see how quitting the union and sitting on our arses will help!!!
YES i do think we should keep trying!!

[Al Kida]

Would be interested to hear what the new 'war cry' of the GC is. Where does the new pres stand on all the issues, I dont really know?. Perhaps someone can give us some idea?

Are we placing issues which affect the majority of the crew on the back burner whilst we dive headlong into pushing through RA65 to protect the minority of extendees and A scalers who havent quite saved enough money to the detriment of COS, upgrade time, basings etc etc of the majority/juniors?:confused:

Are we going to wait to fend off the incoming salvo of cuts, roster practises, housing allowance cuts etc etc, or are we going to be proactive and actually start throwing things first?

I also wonder what the mangement would think if all of a sudden there was a massive increase in AOA membership numbers, a gathering of troops so to speak. they may take notice, who knows:}

[Rook]

I am new to Cx and I plan to join the HKAOA.
I have been reading this forum for several years and I have a pretty good idea of peoples opinions regarding the current CoS and AOA. I don't however, understand what good could come of not joining or quitting the AOA. Would I be (or should I say, will I be) frustrated by losses in CoS and pay? Definitely. I fully understand that. Yet I still can't see the point. If you quit you are on you own. Sort of. The CoS and pay you will work with are still going to be negotiated by something you decided not to support. Is that incorrect? The way I see it, you just weaken the group who are trying to negotiate for the all the pilots, including yourself. If the AOA had 100% involvement and still couldn't achieve any desirable results then perhaps another plan is needed. Perhaps ALPA Intl.?
I have worked for both union and non-union companies. I can easily say that I prefer the first. Do I like unions? Nope. Do I like the idea of paying dues? Not particularly. All in though, I do think they are a necessary evil for a pilot group with any kind of numbers. To be on your own sucks and the results will be far worse. To summarize, I see two options:
- ALL pilots join the AOA
- ALL pilots join another union

I don't think either will cure all but anything else will be worse.

[anotherbusdriver]

So what do you propose instead, Lightly salted?
Leave the AOA, and then what???
If you have a better solution, please let us all know.
If you can do any better, don't hold back.

Just curious.

[Rook]

I think lightlysalted has the right idea, but I think getting together requires a group. And it seems the AOA is by far the easiest way to do that. I think the easiest way to do that is to have "mandatory" union dues. (Not to make anyone choke!) Of course you can't force people to join a union but here's the way i've seen it before: a pilot can elect to not join the union, but he/she will still pay dues. They just pay less, say 2/3. I know not all would agree, but it would make the union stronger as both the numbers become more acceptable and the money needed for bargaining would be available. I mean they negotiate (well or poorly) for you anyway. Seems fair to me.
I think lightlysalted's points are important if not necessary. Easier as a group but should be done anyway.

[slapfaan]

I say let's do INDUSTRIAL ACTION!!!!:eek:

[Jack57]

Sorry - Am I Missing something?

If you leave the AOA/ non member?

Who negotiates your contract?

IluvPX - Please tell me??

Do you do it?

pathetic

[Jack57]

IluvPx

I have no problem with non-members - Everyone should be allowed to chose

But you - Openly slagging the AOA (these guys that give their time) when you do NOTHING

So gutless

[Captain Dart]

Three days after each roster comes out, I usually find I have a whole lot of new friends who want my jump seat, often accompanied by very convivial Groupwise messages that include the word 'mate' etc.

Many of these applicants are commuters. A subset of these are 'passengers' in the industrial sense of the word, as non-members of the HKAOA they are riding on the backs of those who are paying the dues and at least attempting to protect our contract.

My policy is that non-HKAOA jumpseat applicants should be given lower priority for jump seats, as what they save by not paying dues can be spent on the appropropriate full fare ticket. Fair enough?

[Grivation]

As much as Captain Dart's post goes against the grain for most of us - pressuring collegues into joining (or making life hard for them for not joining) is how most well organised trade unions operate. :ok:

I believe in it and I think it's worth thinking about.

[FlexibleResponse]

So as far as I can see the AOA is useless. And I just can't see the point of paying for something that is useless.

Can someone please remind me why I shouldn't quit because I've lost my faith.

I for one, would sure want to be a member of a Union that was affiliated with IFALPA if I was to have the misfortune of being involved in a accident in someone else's country.

Some of our newer youngsters have no idea of the history involving very deep **** they could be in following any accident in some of the, shall we say, developing countries. Innocence has nothing whatsoever to do with their likely prolonged incarceration and treatment.

Just that aspect alone, covers the premiums that one pays to the HKAOA.

[routetuner]

you people live in la la land!
running off runways, twisted! Where do we get people like you!

[routetuner]

All piss and wind! keep hiding here but we know who you are ! At 70% load factor and getting less who needs your sucky jumpseat!

[routetuner]

It's called INTIMIDATION and look in the manuals and you will see the consequences there of!

[FlexibleResponse]

Oops!

Someone has had his button pushed...and his level of discomfort has gone right up!

Think it through thoroughly...review recent and ancient crash history including the Malaysian crash on T/O TPE and even the China Airlines crash on 25L HKG. Note what happened to the crews and go make the right decision for yourself...and especially for your family.

[iLuvPX]

Flex, you must also buy lottery tickets.

Being in the AOA for "legal" protection for the 1 in a BILLION chance you have an incident in a developing country and survive, is a sad selling point. You are better off taking your dues to Macau.

Plus, who is going to defend you? Your Cousin Vinny on their O day? There are no professionals in the AOA, its just a rag tag group of volunteers trying to play grown up corporate negotiators (NC excluded). There performance over the last decade shows how amateurish they really are.

[FlexibleResponse]

Check the history of real accidents and you might be somewhat surprised with what was achieved by IFALPA...that includes some rather proactive action by your local representative Union of IFALPA.

If you want to play the odds...well that is your personal call...best of luck...oh, can you say hello to Schapelle for me?

[iLuvPX]

I did a historical search for "real", and fake, accidents at CX, and found no evidence that being a member of AOA has helped at all. As a matter of fact ive found no accidents involving CX aircraft in developing countries where legal help was required.

I did however, find many examples where legal protection was needed by members and it was either not provided by the AOA or it was substandard. Just ask the 49's to start. The LOL insurance provided by the AOA isnt worth the paper its scribbled on. I have a couple friends fighting through mounds of paperwork every week to get what they deserve, still nothing.

So next time youre out buying snake oil, say hi to Chicken Little for me!

[FlexibleResponse]

I did a historical search for "real", and fake, accidents at CX, and found no evidence that being a member of AOA has helped at all.

No, I didn't say to confine any research to CX accidents. By the way, we all recall that the AOA as a member of IFALPA provided significant assistance to the crew of the major accident on 25L a few years back.

However, I feel my words were purposely manipulated to suit the personal agenda of a sad and opinionated human being. In which case it would seem to be rather pointless to further discuss the issue.

[Numero Crunchero]

Dead horse being flogged again.....but.....

I still believe it is easier to reinvigorate and redirect the AOA than it is sit outside and throw stones. DPA works for Dragonair pilots....CPU for the 49ers...the answer is within, not without!

[mayday911]

The subscriptions have already been cut. Flat fees for all FOs and SOs in their first 4 years of employment. Not sure about after that:

FOs 300HKD/month
SOs 200HKD/month.

Mayday

[Fenwicksgirl]

Lots of new joiners on the last up-date, great to see, hope it continues!!
Time to get onboard people!!!
Do you think the company will stop at amenity kits!!!

[joblow]

The AOA is only as strong as the backbone of the members ,I have seen that weakness displayed time after time.
Until all of you in the AOA are prepared to take an uncomfortable stance and I mean truly committed to do what ever it takes you will never achieve anything .
Why do you think the company listens when the girls threaten, because they know that they will probably do what they are threatening to do .
With us it's all puff and wind and the company knows it ,
BUT if everyone was prepared to walk and the company knew it : trust me things would get sorted very quickly because it would be too expensive to fire everyone and retrain new pilots .
Ed Rod... Always said that the company would continue to push until the pilots pushed back

[ACMS]

Golden handcuffs mate, golden handcuffs.

It's not that simple for a lot of Pilots in HK is it?

[Farman Biplane]

Smacks of HPE points scoring by the company. Dress something up that was always going to happen anyway and sell it as a HPE success. This puts pressure on the AOA to get some runs on the board.
So, AOA, what are we going to announce/concede?

[Liam Gallagher]

You can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

With the Company ditching some leased 777s and more A50s arriving there was always going to be a transfer from 777 to Airbus. Anybody who thinks this is a product of HPE or is a fore-runner to Seniority Type Transfer will end up with smelly glitter on their fingers.

Time to wise up folks...

[goathead]

This thread wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the fact that generally everybody has had enough with the general situation . The HPE Sub Committee (HPE SC) has made steady progression .......blah blah blah
The HPE Sub Committee (HPE SC) has made steady progression through the Collaborative Problem Solving (CPS) process blah blah blah

FFS why are we negotiating ?
This GC and president cant even f****n respond to general members forum questions online , inhouse . No wonder no one gives a t**s !

In the washup of the last fiasco it was identified that the President and the GC had a communication problem!
So what did we do? The GC started a TWITTER account! Awesome.
It is what it is , but voting Rod out was a very bad mistake, this current President is still a management TC , with nothing but illusions of grandeur.

[boxjockey]

We get the union we deserve. Those who voted DS in will get exactly what they deserve in the coming months. Prepare for massive capitulation.....

box

[RAT Management]

Yep....... Resign from AOA..... Best thing you can do !!!!