RAAF Flight Screening Programme

[Thiessi]

Hi everyone.

My pilot dossier was sent off to Tamworth last week (DEO). How long have competitive candidates had to wait between the paperwork being received and an invitation for FSP being made?

Would it be safe to assume if I receive an invitation to attend FSP that it wouldn't be until next year or is there a chance I could scrape in for a DEO spot this year?

[ryano]

Logical,
The answer will remain as 'no' until you ask the question. It might cost a bit to appeal (getting the specialist reports ect) and it may take a long time. You should keep the following in mind. I'm not a doctor, but head injuries and seizures and aviation don't really mix well. It isn't just the ADF that has a tough stance - so to do civil aviation regulatory bodies and militaries world-wide. Have a look at the DAME Clinical Practice Guidelines for head injuries and seizures on the CASA website. The ADF may have it's own additional and/or different policies, but this is the sort of thing you will come up against.

[Logicalexplanation]

Logical,
The answer will remain as 'no' until you ask the question. It might cost a bit to appeal (getting the specialist reports ect) and it may take a long time. You should keep the following in mind. I'm not a doctor, but head injuries and seizures and aviation don't really mix well. It isn't just the ADF that has a tough stance - so to do civil aviation regulatory bodies and militaries world-wide. Have a look at the DAME Clinical Practice Guidelines for head injuries and seizures on the CASA website. The ADF may have it's own additional and/or different policies, but this is the sort of thing you will come up against.

Thanks for your input Ryano, it is greatly appreciated. I'll have a read over the CASA head injury/ seizure policies and make an informed decision from there. I guess all I can do is try to appeal and hope for the best.

[Slezy9]

Hello All!

Like many of you I've ventured down the path of joining the ADF with aspirations of becoming a Pilot.
I've spent a considerable amount of time going through the wealth of information on this thread and am grateful to everyone who has contributed over the years.

I've recently completed my additional pilot testing having passed with eligibility for all the roles I had preferenced and had a Assessment session scheduled for a end of August. I've since had my session cancelled due to receiving a Med Class 4 after completing my Part B Medical Questionnaire.

I've been rendered ineligible due to a head injury I suffered while snowboarding in August 2016. I had a fall, suffered a concussion and had a tonic clonic seizure. I was medically cleared by my local hospital two days later after various scans (CT etc) and applicable checks and monitoring. I have no ongoing management for anything from the injury and this is the only seizure I have ever had in my life.

I note the ADF medical guidelines state you must be seizure free for at least 2 years. However, I was hoping for guidance for the following:
- Is it worth obtaining medical reports and attempting to appeal the decision?
- Is the decision likely to be overturned at all?
- Has anyone experienced anything similar and what was the outcome?

Thank you!

In future, lie, lie, lie...

Look at the possible outcomes.

You get in, they find out, and they kick you out.

Or you tell the truth and you don't get in...

Either way you end up at the same place.

When I joined asthma was a big no no, yet there was more than once I heard a mysterious puffer like sound when "camping" during OTS. They all went on to pass and become FJ pilots.

[13Beast]

Hi everyone,

Great thread this! Been reading it all and absorbing as much info as I can from it all.

I passed assessment day last Wednesday, and have been recommended for all three (Ugrad Army AeroEng, RAAF Pilot, RAAF ACO).

I must admit though I am somewhat trepidatious about what the ADF may think of my age and my suitability to be a pilot (turning 37 next month).

The ACO who did my interviews seemed to think that as long as I passed all the testing they threw at me, then it wouldn't be an issue. However, if I did get in, I'd be coming out of flight school around 40....surely this would preclude me automatically from some jobs (i.e. fast jets), correct?

Has anybody here had any experience or knowledge of "old" blokes like myself making it through FSP (and then flight school), and if so, where they tended to end up? While I'd love to fly with the RAAF, if its going to be pushing sh*t uphill due to policies frowning upon an older candidate, then I'd be more than happy to fly helos with Navy or Army (if those pathways automatically prove more fortuitous given my age). I'd be thrilled flying in the military period, no matter what airframe it happened to be.

Thanks for any help you guys may have for me.
David

[Steve3194]

What's the latest coming out of FSP?
Is there still a hold on Army recruiting for pilots?

[13Beast]

What's the latest coming out of FSP?
Is there still a hold on Army recruiting for pilots?

That's correct. I was told by DFR that Army are full for pilots, whereas RAAF are the opposite, and are in overdrive recruiting for pilots at present. Perhaps it's all those new airframes coming in, plus skilled F18 pilots now doing JSF conversion training (and Orion jockeys moving across to the P8). Leaves me wondering who'll be left flying the Super Hornets and Growlers during the transition period whilst one would imagine a large % of pilots are training on and transitioning to the JSF.

[ryano]

The Army is not full of pilots. Due to a number of reasons, the Army has a major backlog of people waiting for an operational conversion. Since the training system can't produce pilots any faster and is already running at capacity in terms of output, its only option is to slow its intake of fresh trainees to allow the backlog to clear. This will take a long (!) time. Even if it magically trained everyone waiting overnight though, the regiments would still be undermanned.

[RichardK]

Hi all,

Was just assigned my FSP & OSB course, DEO Course 201736, commencing Sunday 10 September – Saturday 23 September 2017. Just seeing if anyone else on here is attending at the same time.

My file was sent down to PSA on the 28th of May 2017, to give an idea on potential waiting time for those applying.

Cheers,
Richard

[JN8]

Hey there everyone.

I just got an invite to FSP for 10-23 September :D :D :D Is anyone else going to that one? Would be good to have a chat beforehand.

Best of luck to everyone going through the process currently.

(didn't mean for those smilies to look like such self-congratulatory clapping, by the way, but there doesn't seem to be a better "happy" option)

[RichardK]

I just got an invite to FSP for 10-23 September :D :D :D Is anyone else going to that one? Would be good to have a chat beforehand.

Great minds think alike. Tried going to your profile but couldn't find a link to privately contact you. Hopefully the one on mine is working, shoot me an email and we can get a group chat going potentially.

[spandexo]

Hey there everyone.

I just got an invite to FSP for 10-23 September :D :D :D Is anyone else going to that one? Would be good to have a chat beforehand.

Best of luck to everyone going through the process currently.

(didn't mean for those smilies to look like such self-congratulatory clapping, by the way, but there doesn't seem to be a better "happy" option)
Hey JN8 - Congratulations to you and every one else on receiving your invitation for FSP!!!

Just wondering, how long ago did your enlistment coordinator send off your pilot dossier to Tamworth? Just trying to get an idea of the waiting period for an invitation.

Cheers

[JN8]

Great minds think alike. Tried going to your profile but couldn't find a link to privately contact you. Hopefully the one on mine is working, shoot me an email and we can get a group chat going potentially.

Sent you an email, Richard :)

[titanpilot]

Hey JN8 - Congratulations to you and every one else on receiving your invitation for FSP!!!

Just wondering, how long ago did your enlistment coordinator send off your pilot dossier to Tamworth? Just trying to get an idea of the waiting period for an invitation.

Cheers

Hey spandexo,

My dossier was sent off in Early October last year. I was just sent confirmation of my selection for the FSP starting on 3rd September two weeks ago so It can take some time. I had pretty much given up hope. I am a bit of a special case though as my age would have to count against me. I'll be 44 by the time my FSP starts.

Anybody else on here attending the 201735 course?

[matty1999]

Anyone know if the male ban affects us?

[spandexo]

Hey spandexo,

My dossier was sent off in Early October last year. I was just sent confirmation of my selection for the FSP starting on 3rd September two weeks ago so It can take some time. I had pretty much given up hope. I am a bit of a special case though as my age would have to count against me. I'll be 44 by the time my FSP starts.

Anybody else on here attending the 201735 course?

Hey Titan

Thanks for the response and congratulations on your FSP invitation!! Looks like I have a bit of a wait as my dossier was only sent off last week.

[VF144]

Hey spandexo,

My dossier was sent off in Early October last year. I was just sent confirmation of my selection for the FSP starting on 3rd September two weeks ago so It can take some time. I had pretty much given up hope. I am a bit of a special case though as my age would have to count against me. I'll be 44 by the time my FSP starts.

Anybody else on here attending the 201735 course?

Hello Titan. I am attending the 201735 Course 3rd September to 16th

[titanpilot]

Hey Titan

Thanks for the response and congratulations on your FSP invitation!! Looks like I have a bit of a wait as my dossier was only sent off last week.

Maybe, maybe not. From what I can make out the more competitive you are the quicker it will happen.

I was told when they first sent mine off that all the spots had been filled until the end of the year. They also told me that I was unlikely to get a spot at the start of the year since that is their busy time (I guess filling all the spots with the previous year's school leavers). They told me that after April things got quieter and I might get a spot after that.

As I said though my dossier may not have been as competitive due to my age. I have heard that the really competitive ones can get offers withing a month. Good luck buddy but don't give up if it doesn't happen straight away otherwise you may find yourself cramming in the study and desperately trying to get in shape like I currently am.

[spandexo]

Maybe, maybe not. From what I can make out the more competitive you are the quicker it will happen.

I was told when they first sent mine off that all the spots had been filled until the end of the year. They also told me that I was unlikely to get a spot at the start of the year since that is their busy time (I guess filling all the spots with the previous year's school leavers). They told me that after April things got quieter and I might get a spot after that.

As I said though my dossier may not have been as competitive due to my age. I have heard that the really competitive ones can get offers withing a month. Good luck buddy but don't give up if it doesn't happen straight away otherwise you may find yourself cramming in the study and desperately trying to get in shape like I currently am.


Thanks Titan, Fingers crossed it will all happen soon. And yeh I've just started studying up again!!

Best of luck for your FSP/OSB! :ok:

[anthos92]

Hi All,

I'm about to sit RAAF Pilot specific testing next week. From what I have worked out from reading on here I should expect questions on the following:

Reading aircraft gauges.
Aircraft spatial orientation tests
Fast maths - estimations
Speed/Distance/Time questions
Memory Numerical tests
Basic decimal multiplication, addition & subtraction.

Am I on the right track with this and is there any advice anyone could give me?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

[13Beast]

Hey spandexo,

My dossier was sent off in Early October last year. I was just sent confirmation of my selection for the FSP starting on 3rd September two weeks ago so It can take some time. I had pretty much given up hope. I am a bit of a special case though as my age would have to count against me. I'll be 44 by the time my FSP starts.

Anybody else on here attending the 201735 course?

Good luck on your FSP Titan. Good to see there's hope yet for us old boys! I'm 37 in 3 weeks time, and waiting on my FSP call up too. :)

[Thiessi]

Good luck on your FSP Titan. Good to see there's hope yet for us old boys! I'm 37 in 3 weeks time, and waiting on my FSP call up too. :)

I'll be 35 in November. Also waiting on a call for FSP. My dossier was sent about a month ago. At this rate they'll have to run a "Dad's Army" FSP course.

[JN8]

Hey JN8 - Congratulations to you and every one else on receiving your invitation for FSP!!!

Just wondering, how long ago did your enlistment coordinator send off your pilot dossier to Tamworth? Just trying to get an idea of the waiting period for an invitation.

Cheers

Hey spandexo. Thanks. I was pretty lucky - my file was sent up around 18 July. So I guess you could hear something soon, or you could be waiting for a while... Good luck, hopefully it will be sooner rather than later!

Looking back over posts from this time last year, it seems like there was a July/Aug 2016 intake at OTS and then nothing until Feb and March 2017, and again a couple in July/Aug 2017. Does anyone know if that's pretty much how it works every year?

[titanpilot]

Hello Titan. I am attending the 201735 Course 3rd September to 16th

Hey VF144,

If you want to chat then feel free to send me a PM. I'm currently logged in from my phone on a work break so I'm not sure if I can PM you.

[titanpilot]

Hey spandexo. Thanks. I was pretty lucky - my file was sent up around 18 July. So I guess you could hear something soon, or you could be waiting for a while... Good luck, hopefully it will be sooner rather than later!

Looking back over posts from this time last year, it seems like there was a July/Aug 2016 intake at OTS and then nothing until Feb and March 2017, and again a couple in July/Aug 2017. Does anyone know if that's pretty much how it works every year?
I'm not sure if that's how it works for all the services but from what I can see that's the schedule for NEOC (Navy).

[AT591]

Hey spandexo. Thanks. I was pretty lucky - my file was sent up around 18 July. So I guess you could hear something soon, or you could be waiting for a while... Good luck, hopefully it will be sooner rather than later!

Looking back over posts from this time last year, it seems like there was a July/Aug 2016 intake at OTS and then nothing until Feb and March 2017, and again a couple in July/Aug 2017. Does anyone know if that's pretty much how it works every year?

This year was Feb, March, June, July. No more RAAF recruitment for the rest of the year. I'd imagine 2018 will be similar but I don't imagine the OTS dates will be out until late this year or early 2018.

[JN8]

Thanks for your responses, titanpilot and AT591 :ok:

[GCcity]

Hey all,

I'm over the moon as I have my pilot assessment day booked in for September! I was just wondering does anyone know if there are going to be any more Flight screenings this year/ how to find out?

[tayra]

Hey all,

I'm over the moon as I have my pilot assessment day booked in for September! I was just wondering does anyone know if there are going to be any more Flight screenings this year/ how to find out?

Hey GC unless you're going for ADFA entry its pretty unlikely you'll get a FSP spot this year. Your enlistment coordinator would have to get your file to Tamworth immediately after your assessment session and then have it paper boarded very quickly along with you being at the top of the pool competitiveness-wise after that. They send out FSP offers pretty much bang on a month prior to start.

On the other hand for ADFA entry you've got a good shot assuming you're competitive and DFR moves quickly for you (this can vary greatly! ;)).

[13Beast]

Hi everyone,
I was told my dossier was sent off in early June. Nearly three months later I decided to call the Flight Screening Program in Tamworth to see how it was all coming along.

This is something I want to do too, in order to check up on how my application is going. However I rang my enlistment coordinator at DFR for info on how to get in touch with Tamworth and he didn't entertain my request at all, seeming quite clear in that it's not an option for candidates to contact them directly...and yet yourself and quite a few others have been in direct contact with them? How do I go about this? Got me concerned now given the delays you experienced that were only discovered when you actually rang them directly!

[GCcity]

Hey GC unless you're going for ADFA entry its pretty unlikely you'll get a FSP spot this year. Your enlistment coordinator would have to get your file to Tamworth immediately after your assessment session and then have it paper boarded very quickly along with you being at the top of the pool competitiveness-wise after that. They send out FSP offers pretty much bang on a month prior to start.

On the other hand for ADFA entry you've got a good shot assuming you're competitive and DFR moves quickly for you (this can vary greatly! ;)).

Thanks for that tayra, I'm DEO unfortunately but I had a feeling that would be the case!

At any rate I still have to nail assessment day before I worry about it!

[13Beast]

@13Beast, Try googling BAE Systems Tamworth to find a number. Ask to be transferred to the flight screening people. They are actually pretty helpful and happy to speak to you.

I was reading on ABC news a few months back that they are going to develop a flight simulator program for the flight screening program which would mean they can process applicants a lot faster and more efficiently. From what I remember, this won't be implemented 'till about 2021 however.

Thanks mate! Just got off the phone with them now. I haven't been scored yet, but was told to ring back in a couple weeks when that's done and I'm in the pool.

Heads up to all, apparently (for DEO) there are 40 in the pool, with another dozen or so to go in once scored. And three more FSPs to go (for DEO) making a total of 18 spots up for grabs before it goes to East Sale with no idea what will happen from there.

[tayra]

So did they mention that FSP will officially be moving down to Sale next year?
A lot of the AIR5428 stuff doesn't seem to be lining up that well with any published or planned dates I've found whilst researching. Some articles mention BFTS hanging around at Tamworth till 2019. Whether or not that includes FSP I don't know.

[13Beast]

Can you confirm the flight screening program is moving to East Sale at the end of this year?

From my understanding, BAE Systems is still in contract for the program until 2019.

The lady I spoke to said after this year's FSPs are done "...it all moves down to Sale and I have no idea what's going to happen from then". So who knows? Either she's mistaken, or we are :)

[Slezy9]

BAE still have the contract to run Army pilots course next year.

But the lady is correct, no more flight screening at Tamworth as of next year. It will all be done in the PC-21 flight sim.

[Slezy9]

Overall intake numbers for flight screening will increase once it moves to simulator only at RAAF East Sale.

Aiming to flight screen 240 people across Army, Navy and Air Force.

[spandexo]

Overall intake numbers for flight screening will increase once it moves to simulator only at RAAF East Sale.

Aiming to flight screen 240 people across Army, Navy and Air Force.

So will this only be for flight screening at east sale during the 2018 period onwards but BFTS will still be conducted at Tamworth on the CT/4B? or will BFTS also begin at East sale on the Pc21 as well in 2018? From what I've researched the first BFTS/2FTS pilot courses utilising the Pc21 wont begin until early 2019.

Can any one confirm this or heard similar?

[Slezy9]

So will this only be for flight screening at east sale during the 2018 period onwards but BFTS will still be conducted at Tamworth on the CT/4B? or will BFTS also begin at East sale on the Pc21 as well in 2018? From what I've researched the first BFTS/2FTS pilot courses utilising the Pc21 wont begin until early 2019.

Can any one confirm this or heard similar?

From memory you are correct (it's been awhile since I had anything to do with 5428).

Flight screening next year in Sale, Course 2019.

[13Beast]

Freshly updated as per the ADF recruitment website....

Detailed evaluation

A detailed evaluation of your suitability to become an Air Force Pilot requires a primary and a secondary selection process. The primary selection process is conducted by Defence Force Recruiting at your local DFRC and includes interviews and an initial Officer Aviation (OA) aptitude test. Those candidates assessed as suitable will progress to the secondary assessment stage, which includes a two day Aviation Screening Program (ASP). Depending on your ASP results you may be invited to attend an Officer Selection Board (OSB). The OSB will be scheduled for some time after ASP.

The ASP will be managed by the Aviation Candidate Management Centre (ACMC) and will take place at RAAF Base East Sale, VIC.

The ASP is designed to evaluate OA applicants in order to determine their suitability to undergo aviation training. The first day of the ASP is all about learning more about the different aviation roles. Because the ASP is held at RAAF Base East Sale, where you will do your initial aviation training, it is perfect location to find out what it would be like studying at the Air Academy. On the second day you you will undergo cognitive assessment using a Computer Based Aptitude Testing System to determine you potential for Aviation Training.

At some time after ASP, selected candidates will be invited to attend an Officer Aviation Selection Board, which involves a series of group activities, problem-solving exercises and verbal presentation exercises plus a formal interview. This gives applicants an excellent opportunity to display their true potential to be an Officer. The OSB is made up of an RAAF officer plus a Psychologist.

For detailed information on Officer Aviation please contact [email protected]

[Slezy9]

Once the aviation academy is up and running people will stop joining the RAAF as pilots. They'll join as aviation candidates. After a certain amount of testing/screening then some will be offered pilot, Nav, ATC or admin. Neatly following ANCA, aviate, navigate, communicate and administrate.

[josephfeatherweight]

Hey Slezy - will the aviation academy be Return-of-Service-Obligation-free? Ie, if you get "streamed" for admin, can you say, "thanks, but no thanks..."?
I like the neat match with ANCA!

[Pillymonkey]

Wow, big changes are being implemented... Safe to speculate that this is because of their need for more pilots in a quicker fashion then their old recruiting system could provide (coupled with all the new airframes and rampant advertising)?

[phlegm]

Freshly updated as per the ADF recruitment website....

Detailed evaluation

A detailed evaluation of your suitability to become an Air Force Pilot requires a primary and a secondary selection process. The primary selection process is conducted by Defence Force Recruiting at your local DFRC and includes interviews and an initial Officer Aviation (OA) aptitude test. Those candidates assessed as suitable will progress to the secondary assessment stage, which includes a two day Aviation Screening Program (ASP). Depending on your ASP results you may be invited to attend an Officer Selection Board (OSB). The OSB will be scheduled for some time after ASP.

The ASP will be managed by the Aviation Candidate Management Centre (ACMC) and will take place at RAAF Base East Sale, VIC.

The ASP is designed to evaluate OA applicants in order to determine their suitability to undergo aviation training. The first day of the ASP is all about learning more about the different aviation roles. Because the ASP is held at RAAF Base East Sale, where you will do your initial aviation training, it is perfect location to find out what it would be like studying at the Air Academy. On the second day you you will undergo cognitive assessment using a Computer Based Aptitude Testing System to determine you potential for Aviation Training.

At some time after ASP, selected candidates will be invited to attend an Officer Aviation Selection Board, which involves a series of group activities, problem-solving exercises and verbal presentation exercises plus a formal interview. This gives applicants an excellent opportunity to display their true potential to be an Officer. The OSB is made up of an RAAF officer plus a Psychologist.

For detailed information on Officer Aviation please contact [email protected]

Which page did you find this on? I just checked the pilot job pages for the roles I'm interested in and they only mention the older FSP program. I also attended a recruitment session about a month ago and they made no mention of this newer process either. Not doubting you, just seeking clarification.

[Thiessi]

From the DFR airforce pilot information page under employment training:

By the time students graduate from ADFA the CT4 and PC9 training aircraft will have been replaced the PC21 aircraft and basic flying training will have moved from Tamworth to RAAF Base East Sale

The Pilot Basic Course will be 24 Weeks in duration and students will fly about 60 hours in PC21 aircraft and simulators. The flying disciplines on pilot basic course include General Flying (GF), Instrument Flying (IF), Night Flying (NF) and an introduction to medium level visual Navigation (NAV). GF includes manoeuvres such as flying circuits, basic aerobatics, stalling and emergency handling. IF instruction covers basic instrument interpretation skills and flying instrument approaches. Ground training will also be conducted in Aerodynamics, Aircraft Systems, Airmanship, Air Power, Air Traffic Control, Aviation Medicine, Cockpit Systems, Meteorology, Morse Code, and Navigation.

Upon completion of the Pilot Basic Course, students will proceed to 2FTS at RAAF Base Pearce for Pilot Intermediate Course. Flying at 2FTS is also undertaken in the PC21. The course is approximately 30 weeks duration with 135 hours of flying and simulation. Aside from developing the flying skills learnt on Pilot Basis Course, students will also be introduced to formation flying and low-level navigation. Students will also learn how to operate an aircraft and not just fly it. Following completion of Pilot Intermediate Course students will complete Pilot Advanced course, if they have been streamed to fast jets, or complete an operational conversion on a transport or surveillance aircraft.

So this would suggest that the simulators are still a while off. The 2019 timeline seems to fit.

[5piece]

Which page did you find this on? I just checked the pilot job pages for the roles I'm interested in and they only mention the older FSP program. I also attended a recruitment session about a month ago and they made no mention of this newer process either. Not doubting you, just seeking clarification.

G'day phlegm, you'll need to look at the defencejobs.gov page for pilot rather than the pilot page at airforce.gov then have a look at "Additional Requirements".

[Dilmah G]

Ladies and gents,

Does anyone know the current visual standards for aircrew? Specifically, what the pre-op limit for any kind of laser eye surgery is?

Was tracking -7, but have recently read -3 for aircrew in light of a recent change and would like to confirm.

[Dilmah G]

They'll pay for laser eye surgery? That's news to me. I'm in service and wanted to see if I could get some certainty before getting on AVMED's radar.

[13Beast]

Another update on FSP. Was on the phone this morning to BAE Systems, and apparently all DEO slots have now been filled for this year's remaining FSPs. All those remaining in the pool, me included, will likely be transferred to the new system as priority candidates, and should all expect a call-up to attend a flight screening course with the new system from next year. Letters will be coming out to all those affected in the coming weeks, and will provide further updates on the situation.

Apparently, they are still ironing out exactly how the whole transition from Tamworth to East Sale will go, so don't take my word as gospel given the state of flux, but that is what I was informed this morning.

[Jkahler91]

Hey Everyone.

I had my assessment session for pilot last Thursday and was successful. I have received some info about the FSP changes.

Starting from 2018 FSP is no more and ASP is starting (Aviation Screening Program). this is 2 day course at East sale. As the RAAF is acquiring PC-21 trainers to replace their CT4B and PC-9 Trainers, these are high performance aircraft so they will not allow candidates to fly them. This is where the ASP comes in. It will be a computer and simulator based assessment and a tour of the base. I'm unsure if OSB will be in the same week.

Starting 2019 BFTS will be at East sale and all RAAF and RAN pilots students will conduct their training there. Start of 2020 is when RAA students will conduct their training at East Sale.

Hope that helps

JK

[Ascend Charlie]

Ahhh...East Sale, commonly known as Pleurisy Plains, just hope for a spring or autumn course, as winter is seriously cold, and in summer the flies from the cow paddocks nearby are infuriating.

[13Beast]

Have you received one of these letters yet? My enlistment coordinator said I should have received one last week but I still haven't heard anything.

I haven't received any letters either, and I have to say, at least you have an enlistment coordinator who contacts you! I haven't heard boo from mine in months. Can't say I am all too happy with DFR at present, they seem to have gone well off the boil a bit. FYI, I am also in the mix for an Aero Eng role with the Army, and they were all hot to trot to put me through for the soonest upcoming board a while back in order to have me in by Jan next year and now...the silence is deafening :P Not that its a bad thing though, one positive is I get to see how my pilot's application pans out in the meanwhile.

[avnx88]

Hey Guys, First time post here but have been following this forum for a little while. Seems like i'm in the same boat as most of you - currently waiting for progression to what was flight screening.. Thought I'd mention that I have received an email with a letter attached mid last week confirming what we already know. Flight Screening is now done and all current and future candidates will be moved to the new Aviation Screening Program at East Sale. Letter specifically states that you need to get in touch with your Enlistment Coordinator to confirm intention to move to the new program. Interestingly, it also says that candidates who have attended flight screening previously and were unsuccessful are eligible to attend the new screening program with no waiting period (unless specified by your OSB). Should be pretty busy when it all kicks off.

[avnx88]

Hey mate, how long ago did you recieve this email?

I got it sent to me last Monday morning. It's just a generic letter with a couple of pages of detail with a few FAQ's at the end.

[Isaiah98]

Hi there guys , i was just wondering if anyone has received any invitations for the FSP sessions in November for ADFA candidates?
Also a general question are all FSP invitations sent out a month before the session or does it vary?
Cheers

[blakeyhawk]

Interestingly, it also says that candidates who have attended flight screening previously and were unsuccessful are eligible to attend the new screening program with no waiting period (unless specified by your OSB). Should be pretty busy when it all kicks off.

Thanks avnx88,

How many attempts would we have at this ASP simulation before we are knocked back for good? I'm turning 20 next year, and realise this is still quite young for DEO application - (I was not recommended earlier this year at flight screening due to my "life experience" and flying scores.) Just wondering if it is worth it to apply again early, or if I should finish my engineering/science degree for 3 more years?

Also, it was raised a little while ago, but not addressed - does anyone know if there is a compulsory service period as part of the aviation selection under the new system - ie. if one was to be offered ATC, but not pilot after their initial training would they be able to decline the offer?

[13Beast]

Thanks avnx88,

How many attempts would we have at this ASP simulation before we are knocked back for good? I'm turning 20 next year, and realise this is still quite young for DEO application - (I was not recommended earlier this year at flight screening due to my "life experience" and flying scores.) Just wondering if it is worth it to apply again early, or if I should finish my engineering/science degree for 3 more years?

Also, it was raised a little while ago, but not addressed - does anyone know if there is a compulsory service period as part of the aviation selection under the new system - ie. if one was to be offered ATC, but not pilot after their initial training would they be able to decline the offer?

Perhaps the system will just stay the same with regards to being in the two year grace period prior to getting your wings/graduating, that you will be able to pull out at any time before graduation. You'd think they'd keep it that same way given how people will get streamed into entirely different careers from what they may have initially intended.

Then again, maybe they'll take a note from the Brits and the Yanks and once you're in, you're in...so help you God. Had an officer mate of mine in the USN, get accepted into pilot training. Was all good at low altitudes, until they went to the second tier of training which involved higher altitude flying. Turns out he had a severe inner ear issue; and had the instructor take the controls from him as he became so disoriented in the cockpit. Was immediately checked out by the doc, grounded permanently and reassigned to a general officer job elsewhere in the USN. Spent the next 6 years or so hating life until he could get out!

[sab2304]

Another update on FSP. Was on the phone this morning to BAE Systems, and apparently all DEO slots have now been filled for this year's remaining FSPs. All those remaining in the pool, me included, will likely be transferred to the new system as priority candidates, and should all expect a call-up to attend a flight screening course with the new system from next year. Letters will be coming out to all those affected in the coming weeks, and will provide further updates on the situation.

Apparently, they are still ironing out exactly how the whole transition from Tamworth to East Sale will go, so don't take my word as gospel given the state of flux, but that is what I was informed this morning.


Thanks for this info mate,
Did they happen to mention anything about ADFA slots?
And were they okay with you calling them? I'm thinking of giving them a call.
Cheers.

[snelson2017]

Hey Guys,

I'm off to flight screening in less than a week. Just wondering if anyone has any last minute advice?
I've done a few hours of flying and have been studying ADF, aircraft, leadership etc.

Can anyone give me an insight to what the leadership activities were like and the speeches? Also, any tricky questions in the OSB and what type of maths questions I should expect?
I understand OSB questions can be tailored to you, but every little bit of information helps!

Thanks!:)

[Isaiah98]

Thanks for this info mate,
Did they happen to mention anything about ADFA slots?
And were they okay with you calling them? I'm thinking of giving them a call.
Cheers.

I've attempted to call them (I'm in the ADFA stream) and i received a curt response from a person working in the flight screening department. But in regards to ADFA slots there are still two more screening invite opportunities at the remainder of Oct and start of Nov (25th and 2nd respectively). My enlistment coordinator explained that if you receive no invitation by this time you will be included in next years new Aviation Screening Program.

[sab2304]

I've attempted to call them (I'm in the ADFA stream) and i received a curt response from a person working in the flight screening department. But in regards to ADFA slots there are still two more screening invite opportunities at the remainder of Oct and start of Nov (25th and 2nd respectively). My enlistment coordinator explained that if you receive no invitation by this time you will be included in next years new Aviation Screening Program.

Thanks mate,
I just got off the phone with Tamworth and the guy who answered said that the last flight screening is no. 47 (25th Nov-9th Dec) and they are only thinking (its likely) about cancelling the 2-16th Dec. Hoping this is the case as I have exams during the other 2. Cheers.

[avnx88]

Thanks avnx88,

How many attempts would we have at this ASP simulation before we are knocked back for good? I'm turning 20 next year, and realise this is still quite young for DEO application - (I was not recommended earlier this year at flight screening due to my "life experience" and flying scores.) Just wondering if it is worth it to apply again early, or if I should finish my engineering/science degree for 3 more years?

Also, it was raised a little while ago, but not addressed - does anyone know if there is a compulsory service period as part of the aviation selection under the new system - ie. if one was to be offered ATC, but not pilot after their initial training would they be able to decline the offer?

Hi blakeyhawk,

I don't know the exact answer to your question about attempts at ASP, as the information that I've read doesn't give any info on this. My guess is that it would be beneficial for you to pursue some life experience and more flying experience over a one to two year period before going back to sit it again. Being only twenty, you definitely have time on your side. Getting a degree under your belt should go a fair way to demonstrating aptitude and commitment but I would be looking for some volunteer / leadership opportunities also.

[Tenfold]

Hey everyone. I’m going to flight screening next month and I’ve just got a few queries/worries that anyone who has been to FSP could possibly answer. First of all, I have no flying experience, is this going to be an issue? On saying that, I have worked as an aircrew member in the RAAF for the past year. Also, is it true that you’re shown a room of model aircraft, some of which are older and not military, and asked to label them. Also, do they still asked mental maths questions during th interview part.

[finestkind]

TC1

A bird in the hand etc. You say not fit for service for 12 months. Is that inclusive of ADFA where you maybe in the service but not on service etc and can continue with an issue that will be cleared before you begin "service".

You need to sought this out.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Turning down a slot at FSP is only going to look one way to those assessing your application.


Balls in your court though.

[13Beast]

I do not think there is an issue with turning down a spot at FSP, provided that you have a good reason...missing your high school graduation sounds like a very valid reason to me; especially given the short notice.

If I was you, I'd contact DFR and explain to them over the phone as to how you genuinely want to attend and it's been a difficult decision, but due to clashing with your year 12 graduation it is something you had to choose over FSP. Impress upon them that you are most certainly keen to attend another FSP in the new year asap, and insist they make a note on your record as to the reasons why (high school graduation...if you say anything about how you're miffed with them for mucking you about, or that its pointless as you have to wait a year due to your arm - you'd be signing your own death warrant to your ADF application). Just my two cents.

[finestkind]

A YR 12 graduation is a significant event………………………….at this time. When you look back on it years down track, yes it will have some relevance but not as much as it has now. You are looking at starting your career and not just at a car wash. Number of things to consider, from are you happy to delay you application 12 months, are you able to accept foregoing the grad but not be successful at FSP??

There are applicants that miss their grad, do not do schoolies to attend FSP. Only you can make the decision.

[titanpilot]

Hey everyone. I’m going to flight screening next month and I’ve just got a few queries/worries that anyone who has been to FSP could possibly answer. First of all, I have no flying experience, is this going to be an issue? On saying that, I have worked as an aircrew member in the RAAF for the past year. Also, is it true that you’re shown a room of model aircraft, some of which are older and not military, and asked to label them. Also, do they still asked mental maths questions during th interview part.

I highly recommend getting some flight training if you can. Preferably one of the courses designed to get you through FSP. The people who got high recs in my group either had recent flying training or had more hours than everyone else.

Don't stress about knowing every plane in the room. It's not the kind of thing that they would ask you unless they doubted your interest. Don't even stress about knowing the answer to every question. If you don't know just say "I'm sorry Sir but I don't know the answer to that". Research everything about the job you want to apply for.

I wanted navy pilot. I could tell you everything that was in the DFR website on navy pilot. I could also tell you a lot about navy life, the types of ships I could be posted to, the aircraft, the training, service period, everything. I could name the ranks. I could name the organisational structure from the fleet air command all the way up, including all the names of the officers up to chief of defense force. All, the ministers in charge, up to the gov gen. All operations the navy is involved in and what the purpose of those operation are.

If you study all of that then you don't really need to worry. They will realise straight away that you are keen and will drop those kind of questions.

There will be personal questions. If you have a girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife, kids, etc expect to be asked about how you and they will cope.

None of this should be new information to you and I will not give specifics as to what happens since they asked me not to.

There will be maths questions. Nothing too complicated. It's not too hard to figure out what type of questions they will be. I recommend keeping your brain active with a maths app or something at least a day or two before you have your interview.

Finally, relax. By the time you get to the OSB part they will pretty much have decided on whether they want you or not based on your flying potential. They aren't ogres. They are actually really nice people. They want to see confidence and the only way you can give them that is if you think of them as just normal people. Treat them with respect though.

[Brando12]

If Im sick at the time of the flight screening. (Vomiting, chest pain etc). Will they still allow me to go to Tamworth and fly??

[josephfeatherweight]

If you tell them you have "chest pain" you will probably not have to go to Flight Screening. Ever... :E

Seriously, what on earth are you asking?

If you're sick with (Vomiting, chest pain etc) do you really want to be "allowed" to go to Tamworth and have your one shot of getting in, when you're feeling like that?

Or do you mean "will they still expect me to attend Flight Screening if I'm suffering from an illness?" - if that's the case, I'm sure they won't "make" you attend, though it may be a wait until the next opportunity comes up.

Come on, prospective military aviators, show some common dog!!

[Slezy9]

If Im sick at the time of the flight screening. (Vomiting, chest pain etc). Will they still allow me to go to Tamworth and fly??

Who has chest pain? Ever? Unless you've just run a marathon or are dying??

Either way, I would not tell the ADF in anyway shape of form that you have chest pain, ever!!

Just say you have a cold and can't clear your ears! The military AVMED people like to jump straight to the worst and work back... So chest pain will immediately be a heart problem, which will at best delay your application or at worst disqualify you forever!

[SonicStrike]

Hey guys!

I cannot believe the wealth of information available in this forum!
Congratulations to all of the candidates who have been progressing through the process and to the ones whose hard work has paid off and have commenced OTC.

A bit of a background on me, I am 21 and applying as a DEO. This is after completing an accounting degree and spending over 12 months in a global firm and realising that my boyhood dream of being a military pilot is very much real and far more attainable than I once thought. My love for flying started at airshows as a young lad and progressed to simulators, remote controlled models and more recently some time in the cockpit.

I have completed my YOU session a few weeks ago and received some extremely positive feedback and have booked my additional testing for next week.

Looking forward to sharing some tips and insights into the process as I hopefully progress through each stage.

Good luck to all currently in the process or waiting for an offer!

[ThunderChief1]

Is anyone on FSP201746? I'd like to connect with some others before heading down.

Also, i'm sure these questions have been asked many times on this thread, so feel free to link a page with relevant info instead of replying.

Basically i'm headed down to FSP later this month and am not entirely sure of what to expect (beyond flying and OSB obviously). I have no flying experience.

Are there any resources/information I should be studying other than everything from assessment day? Should I try to familiarise myself with the CT4 and its instruments?

A rundown of FSP as well as any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers :)

[rickyrider35]

Hey guys,

I've been selected (finally) to go on Flight Screening for the ADFA 18/11 - 01/12 session :p

I've been reading most of this enormous thread, up to the last 20 pages now!! Definitely a lot to learn here, so first of all, thank you to all the contributors and current applicants who are part of this nice little aviation community. :D

I'd also like to know if there's anyone else on this thread that's going to be joining me this month? If there are you probably have already posted but, as I said, I still have to finish the last few thousand words :8
Really hope that as many of us can get in as possible, and that we receive an offer for the start of ADFA this upcoming january!!!

Thanks again and I appreciate any further tips or questions you may want to extend!

[rickyrider35]

Hey Guys, I've been invited to FSP 46 (17th-2nd of November). I tried making a post yesterday after finally making it through the bible's worth of information that is amassed here! Thanks to everyone that's been posting relevant info and has been willing to help, I appreciate it as someone who is trying to go in as prepared as possible.

First of all I'd like to say that if anyone here is in for that course too, and would like to get in contact, I'm more than happy to make a connection on fb or phone and get to know each other before we embark on this adventure! If there's one thing I've learnt reading this thread is that it's all about comradery and forming a smart collaborative cohort and shine as a group as well as individually.

On another note if anyone who has already been through this process would like to extend me any additional advice or any questions, feel free to do so. :)

[harrybass3]

Hey guys,

I went on FSP in march this year and placed in the top 25 percent of candidates.

2 guys from my FSP got in, one Navy one RAAF.

Does anybody have any intel on what the situation is with intakes at the moment? I hear feb will be a large intake so perhaps that is my best shot.

Can anyone share some light on the current intake process for all 3 services?

[MLed]

Hey guys,

I went on FSP in march this year and placed in the top 25 percent of candidates.

2 guys from my FSP got in, one Navy one RAAF.

Does anybody have any intel on what the situation is with intakes at the moment? I hear feb will be a large intake so perhaps that is my best shot.

Can anyone share some light on the current intake process for all 3 services?

This is what I’ve been told but don’t necessarily take it as fact.
For army: not recruiting currently
Navy: Unsure of current situation
RAAF: there are 4 ots intakes coming up. Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr.
number of pilot candidates being selected for each intake respecably to each month: 20,13,13,8.

[harrybass3]

This is what I’ve been told but don’t necessarily take it as fact.
For army: not recruiting currently
Navy: Unsure of current situation
RAAF: there are 4 ots intakes coming up. Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr.
number of pilot candidates being selected for each intake respecably to each month: 20,13,13,8.

OK, well that sounds promising.

So if I got a high recommendation in March (top 25 percent) would my chances still be good?

My preferences are all 5.

I remember doing some maths based on how many fsp slots there are and how many people get recommended and the pool size ended up being around 90 to 100 or so.

[MLed]

OK, well that sounds promising.

So if I got a high recommendation in March (top 25 percent) would my chances still be good?

My preferences are all 5.

I remember doing some maths based on how many fsp slots there are and how many people get recommended and the pool size ended up being around 90 to 100 or so.

I received the same level of recommendation as you in August and at that time there were only about 50 people in the pool. I’m unsure as to how big it is now but I’d say the odds are decent. We’ll hopefully have an answer in the coming couple of weeks.

[harrybass3]

How did you know there were only 50 people in the pool?

based on 24 screened a month, then 12 getting recommended, that would mean there would be around 80 in the pool by December and that is not factoring in drop outs, sick people and in service transfers (separate pool apparently)

Great odds then...

[HornisseHoffnung]

Sorry to wake the dead thread everyone. I just finished my YOU Session (baby-steps) and was wondering if anyone could be so kind as to info-bomb me on the additional testing day and assessment day. OSB info wouldn't hurt either. Cheers.

[harrybass3]

Hey mate,

just do a search on the rest of this thread and you will find what you need. You can find lots of stuff online as well just by googling.


Another mate has said that next year FSP is getting ditched for something called the aviation selection program.

I cant find anything on this I am not sure if I will have to sit the Aviation selection program even though I have a high rec on flight screening in March.

Can anyone confirm when next offers are coming out for Jan/Feb and if they will be done in the same batch?

[harrybass3]

Sab when was this?

A few people have said they are on december FSP?

Did they tell you when the offers will be distributed?

Can you elaborate on ASP?

[harrybass3]

OK, well that seems fine.

But isnt that ADFA FSP? I am applying for DEO.

It's good for us that the last flight screening got cancelled. It means that there will be even less people in the pool.

@mled said that there were 50 people in the pool as of August but i have no idea how he/she would know that. Did anyone say anything about the number of people in the pool when you were on flight screening or Intake numbers??

The waiting is killing me...

[JN8]

Hey Harry,

I did FSP last month and was told pretty much the same things as sab2304 said. Nov/Dec FSP courses will be the last, and then it will all close up before restarting in March 2018 as ASP in East Sale. ASP will apparently involve one day of info sessions on various aviation careers and one day of simulator based testing. Then based on how well you go, you'll be invited back for an OSB on another day for a particular job.

Apparently, those who were recommended at FSP in 2017 will remain in the pool for one year as normal and then if you still haven't got an offer, you can do ASP. So 2017 FSPers are lucky in that they probably won't have to wait 3 years for a second chance!

I have heard that there will be intakes in Feb, March and April. Given that ASP only starts up in March, I'd say all those spots will come from those who did FSP in 2017. So, again, that is good for 2017 FSPers! I've heard that offers should start coming out in early December, but have no idea if all intakes will hear at the same time.

I know that the wait is hard, but hopefully we'll all know soon!

[lightning2Boy]

OK, well that seems fine.

But isnt that ADFA FSP? I am applying for DEO.

It's good for us that the last flight screening got cancelled. It means that there will be even less people in the pool.

@mled said that there were 50 people in the pool as of August but i have no idea how he/she would know that. Did anyone say anything about the number of people in the pool when you were on flight screening or Intake numbers??

The waiting is killing me...

Hey mate, I had my FSP in June and got the same recommendation. I have been sent a letter talking about an attestation medical that I am to complete to be medically suitable. From what i've research this is the medical done on day of enlistment. Just wondering if you have received any kind of letter like this in the past week or so?
Also a guy I met at FSP got a call from the navy officer saying that they are sending his dossier off to nowra. So hopefully this is good signs for us! and if less people in the pool hopefully a Jan offer!!

[harrybass3]

Ok,

Let's summarise.


1. Pool size The pool size for people awaiting FSP was 50 as of August, we have no clue what the distribution pool size or can anyone assist. We do know it will be smaller than last year because of a few cancelled flight screening spots (not sure if different for ADFA or not?)

2. FSP is moving to ASP as of March. 2017 FSP candidates that received a recommendation will have to do ASP if they have not received an offer yet...

QUESTIONS
1. Will there be offers distributed from the current pool of candidates that completed FSP 2017 with a recommendation? If so, when?
2.how did @MLED know the numbers for the intakes as per the last post?
3. A mate who just finished OTS said that "he heard" OTS was full until June??? (doubt this)
4. Why would offers not be distributed until people sit ASP.surely they will send offers for jan, feb, march 2018 before the end of the year seems to be the concensus.
Also, what does DP-AF mean, that is where my application is at the moment for a february intake....

[tayra]

Ok,

4. Why would offers not be distributed until people sit ASP.surely they will send offers for jan, feb, march 2018 before the end of the year seems to be the concensus.


I think the consensus was that anyone who got an offer after a recommendation at FSP would be placed on an OTS course such that they ended up on the last however many BFTS courses at Tamworth next year.

Anyone getting an offer after the new ASP will be doing their BFTS in Sale on the PC-21 and what they assess on the ASP is supposed to reflect those changes to the training system. It seems unlikely that they would be waiting for the ASP to be up and running before sending out offers. Unless of course that's in the context of offers for DEO this year having already gone out. So it would make sense that no new offers would go out till people have actually completed the ASP.

That being said, patience is probably key here until more reliable sources of information pop up (which I am not :}).

[MLed]

All my information came from the mouth of an enlistment coordinator for one of the guys that I went to FSP with. According to them, they were told that offers for the next rounds of OTS should be coming out before the start of December.

[harrybass3]

Sat my assessment day on the 27th of november. Funny that I am resitting my medical on the 27th.

I think another assessment day would not be too much of an issue.

I recall smashing my assessment day.

I just hope they dont make me resit additional testing although a mate of mine didnt have to resit it before he got in.

[harrybass3]

Sorry correction.

I sat my assessment day in August 2016.

My enlistment coordinator emailed me asking for me to come in for a medical only, on the 27th of November this year. Her email said this is so I am "good to go should I receive an offer". I think the medicals expire but not the interview.

Also, emailed FSP and they said "DF-AF are finalising their final selection for DEO pilot, and we should have some indication by early December" (word for word the email)

If the file is at DP-AF is that a good sign?

[MLed]

I take it nobody has heard anything yet?

[harrybass3]

Zilch mate.

I had a chat with my enlistment coordinator. No offers, to her knowledge and she assures me she would know, have been made this side of July.

I have medicals to refresh but other than that its the waiting game. @MLED how did you know about the intake numbers btw?

I keep getting told different things regarding intake size, BFTS is backcoursed, an official document addressing the pilot shortage in the RAAF said intakes will go up to 165 per yeah.

Who knows....???

[MLed]

That’s the same as my enlistment coordinator has said too.

That’s what I was told by two of the guys that I went to FSP with and they were told by their enlistment coordinators. I’m with you though that there is tons of contradicting information.

[FlyingSoon]

To give a bit of clarity

BFTS is closing up shop. The instructors are moving to Sale to convert to the PC21 and thus the courses are being stripped away from BFTS in 2018. The first Army BFTS course next year is in September, until then it is RAAF/RAN courses mainly consisting of ADFA with a few DEO courses.

HATS is opening at Nowra - the same "train the trainer" issue has seen a limited pipeline for Army pilots to go through and this has reduced the intakes.

So what: If you are in the pool it is facetious to think that the lack of candidates going into the pool means you've got an amazing chance - the courses are thinning out next year as BFTS reduces capacity.

To answer a few questions - the course intakes are panelled months in advance. It is fairly common for Army to be recruiting 6-12 months out, and everyone that went to RAAF from my intake got offers on 3-9 months notice. This gives rise to the "OTS is full" idea.

DEO Army - This links in with the "enormous pilot intake" fallacy. Army is currently having issues with the restructuring of its training pipeline. There is a skill shortfall at the QFI level meaning there is a backlog of pilots awaiting conversion. The recent RMC grad had approx 10 pilots. The next class coming through now only has 3 pilots. The so what is that Army is restructuring the training timeline and therefore there is less intake. Eventually all RMC cadets will have the option to test for Pilot as opposed to entering the College on a cadetship.

Medicals - attestation medical is completed on the day of appointment and is relatively cursory to check for any final changes. Your actual medical only lasts 12 months much like it is in service.

I am about to go on Chrissy leave so if anyone has any questions post here and I'll do my best to answer them.

Best,
flyingsoon

[blakeyhawk]

FlyingSoon, or anyone else for that matter, would you have any idea about the rules of the new ASP regarding waiting time between failed attempts and number of possible attempts?

At BFTS you could only attempt the flying component of the program twice in your life, and you had to wait 3 years between each attempt. If you were not recommended based on your OSB or other personal factors, they would usually give you 12 months between attempts, or another amount of time up to their discretion.

Trying to decide when to go for ASP, as I was not recommended in Feb 2017 due to my flying scores as well as my 'age and life experience'.

[FlyingSoon]

In your specific case I would hold off until you can demonstrate you meet their other criteria first. Unfortunately being in service now I am well removed from the ASP side of things and speculation won't help.

[harrybass3]

@flyingsoon

What are your thoughts for Raaf intake?

I was told by my enlistment coordinator that intake spots have not neen filled. This was then confirmed by flight screening that DP-AF had not finalised the ots intake.

When we speak of intakes i am referring to getting a letter of offer from RAAF/RAN.

Its hard because we keep hearing conflicting things.

I would imagine that seeing as the pilot intake on 2019 will be around 165 that 2018 would be generous to RAAF as they say in official documents they need more pilots.

Ideally, i hope they send offers for OTS soon and then we can just wait for the new OTS.

My mate got an offer for July in June. 4-6 weeks is what i heard in terms of notice period.

[FlyingSoon]

I was told by my enlistment coordinator that intake spots have not neen filled. This was then confirmed by flight screening that DP-AF had not finalised the ots intake.

I'd go off that. The only problem is courses are being thinned out next year as staff move down to Sale and get QFI on the PC21 which is why courses are being thinned next year.

Its hard because we keep hearing conflicting things.

This is part of the game, and it is going to be a frequent feature of your career, especially whilst in a training environment

I would imagine that seeing as the pilot intake on 2019 will be around 165 that 2018 would be generous to RAAF as they say in official documents they need more pilots.

As above, I would not be too hopeful for a large intake next year given the movement to Sale. Once this has completed I imagine it would pick back up. Keep in mind the new screening is going to qualify a larger amount of pers for the job so it will only become more competitive.

Ideally, i hope they send offers for OTS soon and then we can just wait for the new OTS.

My mate got an offer for July in June. 4-6 weeks is what i heard in terms of notice period.

Courses are usually booked a while in advance but numbers change which is where you get the late notices from. Notice varies. The best thing to do is keep regular contact with your EC and ensure you ask specific questions about the next course dates, if they have been panelled yet and if the offers are out.

[FlyingSoon]

The new Aviation Officer career plan consists of only GSO pilots. The idea is that no one will be able to test before entering RMC. Testing will be conducted approx six months in and open to anyone at RMC who meets the specialist medical requirements. The exact implementation of this is still unknown. Last I heard ADFA were still filling cadetship due to the further extension of their training pipeline. There is still two years of ADFA av cadets yet to come through the college. I have no idea what the recruiting picture looks like at this stage.

There are still a number of pilots in the pipeline both on conversion and awaiting either basic or rotary qualification. I would not bank on the amount of pilots Army will need at any given time especially in this timeframe. At the moment we have the ARH issues & mid life, MRHs soon to start to go to 6AVN, EC at HATS and the Chook acquisition. It's simply too hard to pick.

It takes longer for Army to acquire aircraft at the moment than to train pilots so I wouldn't concern yourself about a war scenario :)

[FlyingSoon]

Hans, I wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. If I learnt anything in my time dealing with DFR, it was that anything can happen at anytime and if you want to be a pilot it pays to have all options open.

No, we are not moving MRH from TVL, we are moving 6AVN off Blackhawk over the next few years. It's a change that is being resisted so wait out on how long that takes.

I'd imagine the lower intakes at the moment would lower the backlog but as above there are still two years of ADFA cadets coming over on cadetship. I'd wager it would be smoothed out by that point yes. The Army has not quite turned the tap off.

[FlyingSoon]

I couldn't say with any degree of certainty. I think they won't recruit direct entry, if they have spots they'll fill by testing pers in II Class at RMC

[harrybass3]

But what about RAAF?!

Surley they have intakes?

[IsDon]

My nephew has been aiming for a RAAF pilot career for many years. I spent many years as a RAAF pilot and I’m now flying with Qantas. Following in my footsteps it seems.

He was given a top 25% recommendation from flight screening earlier on this year. His HSC results came out on Friday and, as expected, he got a very good result.

What he wasn’t expecting was a phone call on Friday afternoon from the Navy offering him a pilot position for next years ADFA intake. It was a “take it or leave it” offer. Giving him till 1500 Friday to give his answer. He’s never shown any interest in the Navy and is not really interested.

He was told that all the RAAF courses were full and that if he didn’t take the Navy offer he’d miss out in ADFA next year.

My many years in the RAAF have given me a healthy scepticism of recruitment so this just doesn’t ring true to me. I’d suggest all services would have been waiting for the HSC results to be released before offers could be finalised. It just sounds like the Navy trying to secure strong candidates before the RAAF makes an offer.

Anyone care to offer an insight into the process or to enlighten me what’s at play here?

[harrybass3]

@isdon

I was told my EC that the 2018 courses for pilot had not been panelled yet and fsp told me that my file was with DP-AF being considered a february intake.

This is for DEO and adfa may be different. There is so much conflicting messaging its not funny.

[IsDon]

@isdon

I was told my EC that the 2018 courses for pilot had not been panelled yet and fsp told me that my file was with DP-AF being considered a february intake.

This is for DEO and adfa may be different. There is so much conflicting messaging its not funny.

Thanks Harry.

Lack of information seems to be a recurring theme. How can anyone make a judgement call on the next 15 years of their lives without all of the facts.

[harrybass3]

So i just spoke with my EC.

Raaf intakes have gone out and I missed it. 12 were gone out for Jan.

Navy can still come out in January for a FEB intakes but there will be limited spots.

At this time its either Navy or sitting ASP in march/april.

[AnythingIsPossible]

So i just spoke with my EC.

Navy can still come out in January for a FEB intakes but there will be limited spots.

At this time its either Navy or sitting ASP in march/april.

The Navy intake is 25th January so I'd be hoping offers will be out this week rather than waiting until the new year

[IsDon]

ASP. Sorry for my ignorance but is that the new simulator assessment system that’s coming in?

I know there’s a new way but what are they going to do with everyone who’s missed out on the small number of RAAF ADFA Pilot slots available for males? Do they just go to a hold file for direct entry courses or is their whole application binned and they have to start again? Seems like a huge waste of time and money to reassess people that have already been deemed suitable.

[josephfeatherweight]

He was told that all the RAAF courses were full and that if he didn’t take the Navy offer he’d miss out in ADFA next year.
Smells a bit suss to me too, IsDon.
Problem is, not really an easy way to find out, which is a bugger.
Got any (now) 1 or 2 star mates still in??

[IsDon]

Smells a bit suss to me too, IsDon.
Problem is, not really an easy way to find out, which is a bugger.
Got any (now) 1 or 2 star mates still in??

Yes I do actually, and I spent yesterday on the phone to various contacts.

What I can say is that the general comments here are correct.

Apparently all of the RAAF ADFA Pilot positions have been selected and my nephew wasn’t one of them. I was surprised to be told there was only 10, yes 10, RAAF ADFA Pilot positions open for males. I don’t know how big the intakes are now, in my day there we’re around 30. So 20 females, 10 males. Should make TOGA parties fun for the 10 but I despair for the future of RAAF aviation if political appointments under a social agenda trump aptitude.

I certainly wouldn’t want to be a QFI at 2FTS. Stand by for much hand wringing and naval gazing when the traditional 50% pass rate plummets to 30%. Unless politics comes into play and the standards hurdle is lowered to avoid embarrassment. From mates still instructing scrubbing a girl takes almost an act of Parliament.

As for my nephew, he’s decided to use the Navy offer as a potential back door into the RAAF. To reject the Navy offer would require him to go through the complete ASP selection process from the start. All previous aptitude testing is thrown out in favour of the new system. With any new system it may take a year or two to get right so there’s a very real possibility that he may not go as well with the new system. Service transfers are quite common these days and if he does well on pilots course there’s the very real prospect of putting on a blue uniform and going straight to fighters. Seems as if the competition won’t be as high as it should be. He may even like the Navy and elect to stay. Flying an embarked helicopter would be a hoot. My previous life included RAAF Iroquois and P3Cs among the seven RAAF types I flew. Combining the fascinating world of maritime flying with a helicopter would be very rewarding flying.

Good luck to all of those still in the pipeline. Thanks for all of your assistance and support.

[rowdy trousers]

isdon
I'm also trying to make sense of all this. Would you happen to know if your nephew only had RAAF as a preference, or whether he had also listed Navy, but with a lower preference number eg 5 for RAAF and 1 for Navy, or something like that.

[IsDon]

isdon
I'm also trying to make sense of all this. Would you happen to know if your nephew only had RAAF as a preference, or whether he had also listed Navy, but with a lower preference number eg 5 for RAAF and 1 for Navy, or something like that.

Hi Rowdy.

Yes I know because he asked my advice on this.

While at flight screening he was told to score his preferences 1-5. He was told that putting less than a three on any of the non preferred services could possibly earn you a black mark. I’ve since found out that was incorrect advice.

I suggested he vote with his gut, but I cautioned against putting his non preferred service too high. He preferenced as follows:

RAAF 5
RAN 4
ARMY 3 (could have been 4, he wasn’t sure what to do with this)

What I’ve found out though was that if you ranked a non preferred service low then you wouldn’t be considered for it if you missed out in your first preference.

He voted very well as it turned out.

[rowdy trousers]

Thanks Don
Looks like it may have been very wise to give Navy a 4. Thanks for the info. Would you happen to know whether the successful RAAF applicants have actually been informed, or only that the slots have been allocated, and yet to be advised?

[IsDon]

Thanks Don
Looks like it may have been very wise to give Navy a 4. Thanks for the info. Would you happen to know whether the successful RAAF applicants have actually been informed, or only that the slots have been allocated, and yet to be advised?

Not certain of that mate, sorry.

[FlyingSoon]

Most of Defence is on stand down now. Offers would have already gone out for the various positions given SSTs start in Jan (ADFA). With regards to the Navy offer, if RAAF doesn't want him but he has a 4 down, then next dibs go to Navy. They would have been under the pump to get the spots filed before stand down hence the take it or leave it. For future reference, the only numbers you should use in your preferences is a 5, 4 or a 1.

[5piece]

There has been a recent article by Australian Aviation regarding the Air 5428 Pilot Training System Project. There's no major surprises in the article but it does give a good overview of what the new training system looks like for the future pilot trainee. It's a worthwhile read.

I can't post links yet so google " Australian Aviation The RAAFs quiet revolution in pilot training" and it'll show up.

[Lambo_]

Hey,
I received a letter of offer for an Army Pilot through ADFA
When i looked at the actual letter it has

Career Division: General Service Officer

and then further down it has
Function: General Service Officer
Sub Function: (nothing)

Nowhere does it mention being a pilot which i suspect may be because its only for ADFA but im not entirely sure

Is this normal for what a successful flight screening candidate would receive?
Thought i should check before signing away the next 14 years of my life.
Thanks for any and all help.

[FlyingSoon]

What does it say your ROSO is out of curiosity?

Definitely call to get it confirmed/changed. My LOO said General Service Officer (Pilot) from memory. It's recorded against your career profile from the start. I'd wager it's the same for ADFA, I was a DEO to RMC.

Good luck,
fs

[Lambo_]

ROSO is 9 years, Went in to accept it and apparently I was only offered GSO. Its all a bit confusing and im still trying to clear it up but generally the enlistment coordinator was under the impression that i failed flying but my transcript said i was competitive for Pilot position. Im going to go talk to my career counsellor and clear it up tomorrow but if im still only offered GSO i will probably take it. Does anyone have any experience or understanding of moving from GSO to GSO pilot over the course of ADFA or upon graduation? Is it possible? and is it Realistic?
Thanks for any and all help

[josephfeatherweight]

Lambo, very sensible of you to check. Make sure it is very clear as the ADF have made a bit of a habit recently of being particularly "thorough" with regard to contracts - when it suits them, anyway. Make sure it reads as it is supposed to!

[FlyingSoon]

Is it possible? and is it Realistic?

Possible yes. Realistic? Not so much. Given the new career model for GSO Pilots and the fact they are going to test those at RMC there is a chance. Just keep in mind by the time you get to testing you'll have completed three years of a nine year ROSO; you will be on the hook for the rest regardless. During my time at RMC no one got on a cadetship, some were in the same position as you(albeit DEO).

PM me for more. Best,
fs

[finestkind]

Lambo.

You should know whether you were recommended or not from the FSP. If rec'd you are in a position to be looked at for pilot but you may have not been competitive enough to be offered that spot.

[FlyingSoon]

Have a look at my last few responses in this thread. In summary, testing will only be done at RMC for DEO leaving ADFA cadets as the only ones on cadetships. There will be no SSOs in future. The training shift in schools, among other issues, is having a significant impact on the continuum.

[Very Sneaky]

There's a lot of hiring going on with seek.com.au, to hire people for different project and management roles. Seems like everything is a bit "last minute".

That doesn't sound like defence at all /s

[tayra]

The defencejobs website has been updated recently with more information regarding the Air Academy and the ASP. Looks like offers to attend the ASP should start flowing in February.

[MLed]

I saw the updated info on the defence jobs and RAAF websites. I called my EC today to get clarification on the process for people who have been to flight screening already and she says she still doesn’t know if I need to go to ASP (even though it states that on the website). Also she couldn’t give me details regarding the May intake size. Does anyone else have additional information on either of these subjects?

[tayra]

Everything so far including that letter from Director General Personal AF would indicate that you have to do the ASP as well.

Last time I was able to get a hold of my EC (assuming we have the same one) they were waiting for more info to filter through from the RAAF in February. In the meantime they were compiling all our files into digital form (apparently files going to the PSF were all in paper form) ready to send down to the ACMC.

[Akahmi]

Hey guys, I'm also a current ADF pilot applicant. I failed my initial aptitude testing however after a year of hard work I breezed through the initial aptitude and additional testing, I didn't have any certified hours however I had been flying recreational at my local flying club and was told by the recruiters that email proof of the pilots I flew with would be enough so I didn't spend any money on flights.

Consequently I had about 7.5 hours of flight time but the problem was that after I passed my assessment day, I didn't submit my form for flying hours until about 3 months later. I submitted it around June 7th last year. My high school grades were alright higher than average and I got an OP 6 in high school and started doing engineering at uni however the results at my uni were quite average as I wasn't really focusing on it as much as I was looking at it as a factor to fill time.

Anyway after my application was submitted they asked me for my uni results and I never heard anything back. My question is what could be some reasons I was not selected for flight screening? A mate of mine got an OP 14 and still got selected for flight screening but not me? I'm just trying to see what my short comings are. So I called up my recruiter and asked them to put me into this years pool of applicants for FSP.

Do you guys have any advice on what I need to do and why I wasn't selected for FSP? Do I need to get official hours through certified instructors in my log book? I'm going to be increasing my uni marks this year without a doubt so that won't be an issue. Also what are my chances of being selected if I'm being put into this years pool of selection early on?

Cheers

[FlyingSoon]

Selection for flight screening isn't(wasn't) based on your hours, it's a holistic assessment of you as a candidate. I did not submit any uni results and got through. Air time only helps demonstrate interest. They don't(didn't) even ask for proof, or at least I've never heard of them asking.

[Akahmi]

Selection for flight screening isn't(wasn't) based on your hours, it's a holistic assessment of you as a candidate. I did not submit any uni results and got through. Air time only helps demonstrate interest. They don't(didn't) even ask for proof, or at least I've never heard of them asking.
Damn for me they asked for log books and all that. But what other reason could it have been, my medicals were fine, maybe its because i'm indian :( (I'm a citizen though)

[Akahmi]

Also I forgot to mention, I was called up by my recuriter and asked if I wanted a sponsored trip to ADFA college in Canberra paid for by the ADF meaning paying for flights food hotels transport everything. So they spent alot of money on me clearly because they thought i was a good candidate as well as the fact that from QLD alone only about 11 were selected. So clearly I am competitive I just can't fathom why I didn't get selected, even after spending all that money on me lol. The hotel we stayed looked very expensive, it was a 4.5 star hotel lmfao, please someone give me reasoning, I am starting to lose hope.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Also I forgot to mention, I was called up by my recuriter and asked if I wanted a sponsored trip to ADFA college in Canberra paid for by the ADF meaning paying for flights food hotels transport everything. So they spent alot of money on me clearly because they thought i was a good candidate as well as the fact that from QLD alone only about 11 were selected. So clearly I am competitive I just can't fathom why I didn't get selected, even after spending all that money on me lol. The hotel we stayed looked very expensive, it was a 4.5 star hotel lmfao, please someone give me reasoning, I am starting to lose hope.

The dribble you're posting might give you insight on your problem.

[Akahmi]

The dribble you're posting might give you insight on your problem.

Was just taking a little piss out of it lol, but thanks for your very helpful contribution judging my entire character based off a few words, you must be a psychologist?

[AT591]

Also I forgot to mention, I was called up by my recuriter and asked if I wanted a sponsored trip to ADFA college in Canberra paid for by the ADF meaning paying for flights food hotels transport everything. So they spent alot of money on me clearly because they thought i was a good candidate as well as the fact that from QLD alone only about 11 were selected. So clearly I am competitive I just can't fathom why I didn't get selected, even after spending all that money on me lol. The hotel we stayed looked very expensive, it was a 4.5 star hotel lmfao, please someone give me reasoning, I am starting to lose hope.

You already got your answer from FlyingSoon, its not based on just your high school results, its a whole of character assessment.

Also; "I didn't submit my form for flying hours until about 3 months later". That obviously didn't help your case.

And further to what Junior.VH said, if you cant "fathom why" you didn't get selected, he was merely highlighting that in your posts you come across as arrogant and self-entitled, which will not help you at all during the selection process. Honest self reflection might be of value to you.

Finally, FSP no longer exists, do yourself a favour and do some research.

[finestkind]

Akahmi.
You state that you submitted your hours in June. That does not mean your application was at the PSF. Also you indicated they asked for your Uni results. Two points here. First your application will not be processed until they have all the documentation they need. Secondly If your Uni results were questionable, not matter what reason, and your applying for ADFA how do you think that looks. ADFA is extremely competitive with more applicants applying for pilot than can be assessed let alone the number successfully completing FSP that do not get an offer.

[Akahmi]

Akahmi.
You state that you submitted your hours in June. That does not mean your application was at the PSF. Also you indicated they asked for your Uni results. Two points here. First your application will not be processed until they have all the documentation they need. Secondly If your Uni results were questionable, not matter what reason, and your applying for ADFA how do you think that looks. ADFA is extremely competitive with more applicants applying for pilot than can be assessed let alone the number successfully completing FSP that do not get an offer.

Hm that's true, they said they sent it off in June to Tammsworth so they would have had my application sometime after that. I guess it's time that put the towel in and looked into commercial flying, cheers for the insight though.

[josephfeatherweight]

Akahmi, I’d like to offer a small bit of advice, in the hope that you can settle down, have some introspective thoughts, and perhaps steer your application back onto the path of success.

Firstly, you have, within a very short time frame, managed to agitate some of your fellow applicants and indeed some current and former ADF aircrew, with your manner and tone of posting. If you can achieve that, online, on an anonymous forum, in less than a week, when you are ASKING for assistance, have a think about how you might come across in other situations IN PERSON.
maybe its because i'm indian

Secondly, if you quickly come to a conclusion that your ethnicity is a barrier to your selection, then I would humbly suggest that this is more of a problem you are creating. In my experience, individuals who jump to similar conclusions find it difficult to avoid these feelings affecting their personality, and it is THIS that people will judge you on - not your ethnicity. To be fair, I suggest this as a white, Anglo male who has not faced judgement based on such concerns. I will say that in my time in the RAAF, I did not witness anyone experiencing such barriers and I sincerely hope that there are none - the ADF is actively attempting to diversify its applicant intake. Don’t allow these preconceptions to be a barrier for you.

Finally, your posts are written like you are writing a text message to a mate, which, for an old-school codger like me, is not befitting of a Military Officer.
Spelling mistakes are lazy Tammsworth and I guess it’s time that put the towel in doesn’t make sense and indicates a willingness to give up - there have been people on this thread who tried for MANY YEARS and took MANY ATTEMPTS to get into the ADF.

From the above, it would be all too easy to look at you just simply from your posts and perhaps dismiss your application with a “Well, looks like the ADF dodged a bullet here...” - prove me wrong!
Sincere good luck!

[ryano]

Yeah I'll bite.

It's pretty simple. Your application won't be processed until it has been completed and you have supplied all of the appropriate documentation required. In the three months it took you to send in your flying hours, all your application did was gather dust on someone's desk. Meanwhile, 150 odd good quality applicants pushed in front of you for consideration.

You're competing against high calibre people for a pretty small number of positions. Hundreds of people make it further in the application process every year. How do you stand out in a pile of 400 resumes? An OP1 gathers attention, not a 6. Distinctions at uni gather attention, not simply attending. Team sports, leadership positions within organisations, a significant interest in aviation. You have to tick every box mate. You don't have to be the best at everything, but you have to be pretty bloody good. You have to sell your potential, sell your ability to dig in and slog your guts out for a few years and never give in.

I'll tell you right now, your ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

Pick your grades up, work your way into management, volunteer when you can, play team sports, show more of an interest in aviation. Be ruthless in how much you want it. If it seems a bit hard, GA and the airlines are as equally brutal. The only thing is they won't tell you straight to your face.

[JPJP]

trip to ADFA college

If you can’t name it correctly; it’s unlikely that they’ll pay you to attend it. “Lol” :rolleyes:

[tayra]

Alright everyone, while the individual might not have the same level of life experience as other members on this forum, I think his intentions were cordial.

But let's put the thread back on track.

I called up DFR earlier this week. I was notified that they were still waiting on "target numbers" for applicants to put through the ASP. Apparently this information is to be received by DFR in late Feb/March.

If anyone has any further information on the oh-so-long-wait, please post here.

Had a chat to my EC this week. It looks like (at least for my EC) that they are still waiting for official policies and procedures from the RAAF about how to process applicants.

As of last September the priority for candidates attending the ASP was apparently based on the date of assessment day. This is presumably to avoid as many candidates lapsing as possible. Whether or not this holds is up in the air for now. Also no word on those left in the FSP pool being given priority over others.

Nothing new regarding the nature of the screening though my money is still firmly on a CBAT battery similar to the RAF and CAF. They must be in a bit of a hurry to get everything together if they're still intent on screening at the start of March.

[tayra]

Come March I would of waited 10 months for the ASP, so hopefully I get an offer for the program rather than sit another 9 hour assessment day.

I'm in a similar boat to you with ASP timing coming very close to when I sat my assessment day.

But on that note, I was also told of two eventualities:

Attend ASP -> pass -> attend OSB -> assessment day lapses
= Resit the medical portion only. (unsure if specialists as well)

Attend ASP -> pass -> assessment day lapses with no OSB offer
= Resit the entire day, pysch, DI, med etc.

I think it's quite likely a fair few candidates will be re-sitting their assessment days because of the timing. Even if you assume that they will push people through quickly who don't have long before their year is up. You also have to factor in that OSBs are now separate and not pilot specific and perhaps the ACMC has no say in when they're run. They'll either need to account for the timing of the first couple of OSBs after the ASP or they just let the chips fall where they may and it's down to luck :ok:.

But as Joe mentioned above there are many people who've spent over a year to get in. In fact I think under a year from application to entry might be on the shorter side of things judging from most of the candidates I've talked to.

[NovemberCharlie92]

Good Morning everyone,

I am intending on starting an application to join the RAAF as a DEO Pilot and have a quick query about the new Air Academy program that is being started up. I have spoken to DFR and they were apologetically uninformed about the new processes (not their fault at all) but seeing as some people here may be in the recruitment process, I thought some one here may have some guidance.

From all the information I can find on the DFR/Air Force website, there will be two pathways into the Air Academy, one being Pilot pathway and the other Mission Elementary pathway.

There are also a few areas where it states that you will not know which operational stream you will be selected for at the time of attending the Air Academy. The information also goes on to state that you will know which pathway (pilot or mission) that you will be on in the Academy at the time of your appointment.

As it is all a little confusing to me, my question is this. Can this be read into as if you apply as a pilot applicant and successfully get recommended for pilot throughout the ASP/OSB process, that your offer of appointment will state you will be on the pilot pathway, and that once you are down at the air academy you do not have the chance of being streamed off into air traffic control or air combat officer etc? Would I be correct in believing that it is only officer candidates on the mission elementary pathway side of things that have the uncertainty as to which role they will end up in?

As I will be leaving a different high paying job in the aviation industry to pursue this dream to become a pilot (if accepted obviously, never a guarantee), it would be comforting to confirm how I read the website in that I can apply to become a pilot but not accidentally become an air traffic controller without any input of my own.

Kind Regards.

[tayra]

NC92, I believe you have it spot on.

From what I understand in the future we will all be applying as officer aviation candidates and ASP results will determine which pathway you enter as.

At the ASP I assume there will be both a cutoff for Pilot and a cutoff (likely lower) for ACO/JBAC. If you make pilot, great, pilot is what you get but if you go through as mission pathway you have that uncertainty a la GSO as to where you'll end up.

edit: apparently the future of the program is for there to be no streaming until AFTER OTS and the first lot of coursework at the air academy.

[tyler_gordon20]

Hi,
I have a little bit of confusion regarding Initial Employment Training. I have read from a few sources that if going through ADFA, both COMSURV and AVMED are completed whilst there. However if going through direct entry AVMED is completed just before BFTS and COMSURV is completed between BFTS and 2FTS. I was just wondering if this is correct.
Cheers

[tayra]

Anecdotally I was on a base tour recently and one of the pilots there didn't complete COMSURV till after his opcon so course availability is probably the deciding factor of when you do it.

[NickyG]

ASP - I recently received an invitation to attend ASP (mid March) assuming I'll be one of the first. I'm seeking any assistance on how to prepare/what to expect as info in the letter was limited. I've applied for JBAC and already been recommended by OSB but still waiting for offer.
I know this is a pilots thread but since the testing is now combined across all OA roles I'm hoping to get some links to practice assessment likely to be included. Can anyone point me in the right direction for Aviation cognitive tests online?
The letter stated that the assessment component is all computer based consisting of aptitude testing using the Military Aviation Cognitive Testing System (MACTS).
It reads as if the test will be exactly the same regardless of the role applied for and I'm wary my flying aptitude is limited.
Thanks in advance for the assistance and I'm happy to contribute a brief if the ASP once completed.

[tayra]

I generally recommend:

https://www.preplounge.com/en/mental-math.php

for general mental maths practice and

Speed Distance Time | OASC: RAF Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre (http://www.speeddistancetime.info/)

for speed/distance/time/fuel questions. One caveat about this website is that all of the questions use "nice" numbers which can get you unstuck if you get thrown questions where you are forced to round or estimate answers.

If you are anyway programming inclined it's fairly simple to make your own questions with more variety and difficulty.

[The Ayatollah]

Hey NickyG, I'm in the same boat as you. I was offered a position on an ASP in early/mid March as well, and the lack of info in the email was slightly frustrating. However, it did say that once your position and itinerary has been confirmed you'll be emailed an "ASP Package", so fingers crossed there'll be some info in that. I also have some friends at East Sale at the moment and if I find out anything helpful I'll be sure to pass it on.

Tayra - thanks for those links. There's also a pretty good pdf floating around google somewhere (unfortunately I don't have the link anymore) which details all the pilot aptitude testing in use by the different branches of the US armed forces. There's some decent techniques in there about approaching typical battery testing, and it's good to skim through at the very least. I'll chuck the link up if I find it.

[tayra]

They did say starting and March and they seem to be sticking to that. The fact that they are hiring a dedicated liaison between DFR and the ACMC doesn't mean it's all falling apart at the seams. Hopefully it means a greater flow of information through to the enlistment coordinators who have a hard time doing their job when they're in the dark. Also doesn't help with us impatient bastards calling up every other week.

For any ADFA applicants reading. I heard your initial ASPs will be run all through April (due to extra personal requirements for the <18s). DEO will then kick back in for May.

[13Beast]

Uh oh... I am now officially in the first week's ASP... :ooh:

Congratulations! Now the waiting is over (for you), and it also seems that ASP is well and truly up and running. Hopefully a lot more of us can get some invites soon to sit it.

[5piece]

Hi All,

For those wanting to get a gauge of the rate of distribution of offers, I completed my assessment day in early July and received an email today with an offer to attend ASP in the second half of March. If offers are being sent out based on the date of completion of assessment day, then it seems they are making good progress considering Hansfalkenhagen receiving an offer a couple of days ago and having attended assessment day about a month earlier than myself.

[tayra]

Hi All,

For those wanting to get a gauge of the rate of distribution of offers, I completed my assessment day in early July and received an email today with an offer to attend ASP in the second half of March. If offers are being sent out based on the date of completion of assessment day, then it seems they are making good progress considering Hansfalkenhagen receiving an offer a couple of days ago and having attended assessment day about a month earlier than myself.

I haven't received an offer and I completed my assessment day last April so perhaps that's not the basis for it. Guess I'll have to start nagging DFR again.

[tayra]

I did hear straight from my EC that assessment day date was what they planned to use as of some time late last year. Most of those ACO/JBAC candidates have valid OSB recommendations so it makes sense for them to be at the front of the line. OSBs are probably a little more taxing to run than assessment days.

However, I'm a bit wary that I may have slipped through the cracks again which incidentally also happened with my dossier for flight screening. Just out of curiosity did you guys receive offers from your EC, the ACMC or just some generic DFR contact?

[The Ayatollah]

Tayra I heard the same thing from my EC last year that order of assessment day date was how they were planning to do it.

I'm applying as a DEO pilot and got an ASP offer for early March, so it's apparently not only ACO/JBAC they're trying to move through - although I agree the OSBs likely play into it.

For background, I completed my assessment day over two days (due to weather) in late March and early April, and my ASP offer came from a generic DFR contact in Canberra. I haven't actually had any contact with Brisbane DFR in a month or so now.

If you completed your assessment day last April and haven't been offered an ASP slot I'd definitely chase it up with your EC.

[Akahmi]

Tayra I heard the same thing from my EC last year that order of assessment day date was how they were planning to do it.

I'm applying as a DEO pilot and got an ASP offer for early March, so it's apparently not only ACO/JBAC they're trying to move through - although I agree the OSBs likely play into it.

For background, I completed my assessment day over two days (due to weather) in late March and early April, and my ASP offer came from a generic DFR contact in Canberra. I haven't actually had any contact with Brisbane DFR in a month or so now.

If you completed your assessment day last April and haven't been offered an ASP slot I'd definitely chase it up with your EC.

Can I reconfirm what an EC is? Is it enlistment coordinator, or the person whom you're appointed to after you finish your assessment day? Also I apologise for my attitude previously, I was told that if I didn't receive an invitation by Jan 2018 that it was all over so I was a little frustrated and upset but reading the struggle some of you guys have gone through, after years of no responses and getting calls makes me hopeful. I completed my assessment day around April, guess I'll have to rebook.

[F_X_S]

Hey guys, I recently received an offer to attend an ASP course ( 1812D - 21/03 to 24/03). Basically in the same boat as everyone attending the ASP (lack of info, basically not knowing what to expect) for the first time.

Also if anyone on the forum is attending the same ASP, message me, would be awesome to know some people before heading in.

[tayra]

Thank you everyone for the advice. With the power of email and professional prose I now find myself on a course at the end of March. :ok:

[MLed]

Thank you everyone for the advice. With the power of email and professional prose I now find myself on a course at the end of March. :ok:

Hey tayra, how long ago did you contact them? I tried sending an email to the address listed on defence jobs a week ago and no reply as of yet.

[tayra]

About a week ago. Through DFR though not the ACMC email listed on the jobs site.

edit: Also from reading around on facebook etc. it seems that those who attended a FSP last year are waiting longer compared to those who didn't get a shot. Could just be chance though.

[TheAlchemist]

HI guys and girls, I just wanted to say thankyou for such a knowledgeable thread from everyones inputs, I thought ild get involved by signing in and posting my first reply.

I started my application process the second time round in 2016 and after some hurdles to jump through, go for an assessment day next friday.

Looking forward to any generous info sharing around ASP specifics for those undergoing this in March & Good luck all!

[Thunder2]

Hi everyone, same story here for me, recently received an offer to attend an ASP course (1812B - 19/03 to 22/03). If anyone is attending the same course, send me a message!

Ps. Has anyone been through the first ASP yet?

[tayra]

"Has anyone been through the ASP yet?".
The questions we should all be asking ourselves is how much do the beers at the bar available to us cost?!
I am on the ASP starting tomorrow, someone let me know in advance!

Better get a good sleep then or is it just the base tour tomorrow?

[F_X_S]

I am on the ASP starting tomorrow, someone let me know in advance!


All the best at the ASP hansfalkenhagen!

For all all those that have received offers to attend an ASP course, have you received your “information package” yet?
The reason I ask is because it’s been almost three weeks since I confirmed the date and I am yet still receive my itinerary.

thanks in advance guys.

[tayra]

Been quoted as one week before your course is when you'll receive your joining instructions.

[Rich.ieP]

Just received a call from a mobile number and it was about if I can make a last minute jump on the course starting next Wednesday (14/03/18) as someone has dropped out. I'll be speaking to my boss tomorrow if I can afford half the week off last minute.

Just to let everyone know, I did my assessment session August 2017.

Edit: So I am on the course next week, the lady mentioned that this was a good thing for me as there is an intake coming up for April/June. I believe this is for RAN and RAAF but just speculating.
Now to hit the books and study hard.

[tayra]

Assuming you're embargoed from talking about anything other than the alcohol situation, were you attempting to celebrate or drown sorrows?

[Fergusen]

Hey man. Congratulations, I wish you all the best.
Also, what type of tests were they? Mental arithmetics, hand-eye coordination, memory tests, simulator testing?
Thanks

[tayra]

@tayra
I only know of one candidate who passed with a higher grade than me (around 85-90%) and he was also told that his chances of receiving an offer for a Pilot OSB was also 50/50.


That's interesting that a score that high still doesn't guarantee an OSB slot. Doesn't really leave much dynamic range in the scoring for assessing relative competitiveness. Perhaps the competitive score is higher at present because BFTS won't reach full throughput until well into next year and thus they don't have that many pilots slots to hand out.

Good luck with your potentially multiple OSBs.:ok:

[michaelrobins]

Well done hans. I wish you all the best. What about the tests what were they? Maths? Memory? Simulation? Hand eye?
Is it true that the testing section spans 8 hours in time? Many thanks

[michaelrobins]

Hey hans, so if you aim for pilot role you have to try your best both for pilot and mission elementary testing?

[Central.runner]

I won't go in to too much detail on the tests. Obviously DFR have spent a lot of time and money setting the ASP up, so spilling the beans specifically on the testing elements wouldn't be beneficial for anyone

Great insight, thanks hans and others.
Aside from the structured “tests” at ASP, did the assessment and grading of the candidates cross over into other personal aspects such as service knowledge, personal motivation, conduct, teamwork, leadership, knowledge of training, career expectations etc? Obviously not from formal interviews but in any way contributing the competitiveness of the candidate.
Naturally these are critical and will bear out during OSB, but in preparing for ASP as efficiently as possible it would helpful to get a sense of these other items that don’t feature as highly or at all. If someone had entered this process from the pilot candidate side for example, is there any advantage or benefit in getting across all roles covered by ASP before arriving?
Many thanks to the contributors and best of luck to all candidates!

[Footprint]

Hi all,

My EC advised in mid Feb that there are around 200 people in total recommended from previous OSBs (Pilots, ACOs & JBACs). Virtually everyone validity in the pool had to run out before the ASP kicked in on March 6th.

ASPs will consist of new candidates and the previous recommended lot.

The ASPs are all back to back in March. 4 ASP the 1st wk, 4 the second, 3 the third and 2 in the last wk of march.

Next ASP rounds will be in May.

Hope this helps those wondering what is going on.

[tayra]

So they have actually created two distinct sets of testing for both officer aviation pathways? I would imagine there absolutely would be a large degree of overlap in requirements for both roles.

From the research I've done on the RAF testing (which I believe is what we've adapted/licensed), their tests are split into aptitude domains of:

verbal reasoning, numerical reasoning, spatial reasoning, work rate, attentional capability and psychomotor coordination. They test all 6 domains and then perform what they've defined to be an optimal weighting of each to give you your pilot/aco/jbac etc. score.

The only possible non-crossover domain for JBAC/ACO would be pyschomotor coordination (which isn't even the highest weighted domain for pilot in the RAF).

But I guess this is all needless speculation and I'll find out what's what in about a week. In my view it would be entirely pointless to perform worse on the mission elementary testing in some hope that it will put you in higher contention for a pilot OSB.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Further to this, I am getting a little tired of the candidates who claim they will ONLY accept a pilot role - or worse, will only accept a fast-jet role in the RAAF.

If a candidate will ONLY accept a pilot role, I'd argue that the candidate should simply cancel their ADF application and pursue a career in civilian aviation. I, for one, would happily accept a non-aviation role, even a non-aviation & non-officer role, if I was unsuccessful with my chosen preferences.

You need to actually have the desire to be in the Defence Force in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with people knowing what they want. The RAAF will take as much (if not more) out of you than it will ever give you in return. No point playing the game if it isn't worth the prize at the end in your personal desires.

I wouldn't have joined the RAAF as anything other than a pilot. That doesn't make me a bad officer, if that was the case there'd be a lot less pilots...

[donpizmeov]

Hans the world is not a fair place. The RAAF has been hiring pilots for a long time. They know what you need to pass the course, and what you need to have a successful career.
Someone totally focused of being a RAAF Pilot with no interest in being a NAV etc, is not a lesser candidate to someone who wants so badly to be in the military they would take any job.
You either pass the selection or you don't. If you don't, it's a personal choice what you choose to do next.
But I agree with you about someone thinking doing badly in the non pilot tests is somehow going to help their application. They would seem to have some gaps in critical reasoning, and perhaps a different career choice would better suit.

[Central.runner]

I am not exactly sure what you mean by this. Are you asking if there is even any point trying for Mission Elementary testing if you are only applying for Pilot?


Thanks hans, you’ve answered the question in your response. The question wasn’t about effort in any particular test but rather being caught off guard in a conversation about other roles and having little knowledge about them. For what’s it worth, these recent contributions have prompted me to at least gain an overview of these roles before ASP.

[Slezy9]

being an ACO in a P8 is still are far better career than any civilian role I can think of.

Wow, you sure know a lot about aviation, military and civilian, for someone who's just starting out...

I'd rather sit up the front of any aircraft as a pilot, any day, than sit down the back of anything (super hornet included).

[junior.VH-LFA]

Wow, you sure know a lot about aviation, military and civilian, for someone who's just starting out...

I'd rather sit up the front of any aircraft as a pilot, any day, than sit down the back of anything (super hornet included).


You got that right.


I like being a pilot, if it didn't work out here I'd be giving it a crack somewhere else. You should go have a chat to any ACO's working in the civilian sector of aviation post leaving the RAAF and their employability... there's a lot more to think of when joining Defence than just being keen to do everything. It doesn't make anyone less of a candidate when they know what they want to do and what they're not interested in.


Just as an offside remark as well, there's no such thing as applying yourself for only a "fighter pilot" role, by the time you find out if you're going fighters or not it's too late to just disappear into the ether if you find out you're going multi crew. That’s not how pilots course works.

Where is the civilian equivalent of fast jet aircrew? I guarantee there are lot more ex Fast Jet Pilots working at the mainlines right now than there are ACO’s.

[tayra]

Haha, I got my first job out of high school for being the only one at a group interview not wearing thongs and boardies.

I don't think it's unreasonable for people going through these first ASPs to only want the job they've applied for. I want to be a pilot and an Officer in the RAAF... at the same time. It's going to be different for everyone. If it actually becomes the case that you don't know which job pathway you're on till after OTS then yeah, it seems very likely that some people will jump ship during their IMPS grace period if they dont get what they want. So as it stands, those self-selecting themselves out of contention is good thing. As for the people being bitter after failing, this is likely the first major 'NO' that some of them have received in their lives. Especially because it's almost a personal attack of 'no you as a person do not have the aptitude to do this job'. Whether or not they bounce back and learn from it before having another crack is the main concern.

After some more cyber sleuthing I found those 7 domains that you mentioned. Looks like they've introduced some new names for them whilst the tests remain the same. Hope you did well on the CLAN test if it was covered. It's the most significant (statistical) indicator of IFR performance apparently.

[Thunder2]

Thanks to all the contributors, the info has definitely made me more confident.

During the ASP test, I am guessing they don't give you any feedback for individual answers? Like a green tick.
And I couldn't find anything about it online, but is it true that there is a verbal reasoning test in the ASP?

[The Ayatollah]

During the ASP test, I am guessing they don't give you any feedback for individual answers? Like a green tick.
And I couldn't find anything about it online, but is it true that there is a verbal reasoning test in the ASP?

Hey thunder, you guess right. Practice questions will give you a green tick, but the testing questions won’t. The only feedback you get is at the end of course, which is still just a general overview.

There is a bit of verbal reasoning, but it’s not especially difficult.

[Rosco22]

@hansfalkenhagen - congratulations on the recommendation. You seem very motivated and keen to do well, which will stand you in good stead in your future training.

To all others reading his advice, take it with a grain of salt.

Many years ago I received a phone call to congratulate me on being offered the role of Navigator. I declined, and 3 days later received the offer of Pilot, a decision which I cannot thank my 17 year old self enough for.
DFR and the RAAF will try and get you in for whatever role they can, knowing there is a trickle down to other specialisations from those that initially applied for Pilot.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with knowing what you want. There are many great careers in the RAAF, however being 'in the RAAF' is not the be all and end all, and it is 100% OK to say you only want to be a Pilot.

Also, '3000 pilot applicants a year' is drastically overstated. We are chronically short and can't get enough good people in the door, let alone out the end of the training pipeline.

[Slezy9]

Also, '3000 pilot applicants a year' is drastically overstated. We are chronically short and can't get enough good people in the door, let alone out the end of the training pipeline.

In the late 90's/early 2000's there were approx 10,000 applications for pilot across all three services per year. There has been a steady decline in interest over the last 15 years or so. In 2016 there were 400 people who walked through the door and said I want to be a military pilot.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Because people of the current generation aren’t stupid enough to sign on to something for 11.5 years with so many variables when they can just get a HECS loan and do a Cadetship...

The RAAF will figure that out, eventually.

[tayra]

Is the IMPS really the defining factor? If you read these forums for any amount of time it doesn't seem like anyone is painting Civil aviation in the best light either.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Is the IMPS really the defining factor? If you read these forums for any amount of time it doesn't seem like anyone is painting Civil aviation in the best light either.

Times are and have been changing for a while.

I like the RAAF, I’m not dumb enough to think it’s the best wicket in the world though. The exodus underway is enough to demonstrate that.

But I’ll never regret it, hell, I love the actual flying more than I could ever explain.

[Slezy9]

But I’ll never regret it, hell, I love the actual flying more than I could ever explain.

My thoughts exactly!

But... I believe it's a young mans game, unless you want to be CAF.

[donpizmeov]

Have done both. Much preferred being with Ronny.

[Slezy9]

C'mon mate. You're a pilot in the RAAF. You have the best wicket in the world.

Most people could only dream of what you do for a living.

If you don't mind me asking, what aircraft are you assigned to?

Yeah, below average pay, moving every 3 years, secondary duties that have zero to do with being a pilot, ground jobs, etc...

The best wicket it aint, don't get me wrong, it's good for a while but you cant do it forever.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Dude, you haven’t done it, don’t pretend you know more than the people who have.

Like I said, it’s the best flying I have or ever will do.

That’s about the end of it.

[kyle_]

Long time reader first time poster
My application has been going on for three years now due to some medical issues (had a knee recon took a year to get cleared). I have sat two assessment days and passed both with flying colours. My last one was November 2017. I received a call two weeks ago from ASP to attend the next available session as someone had dropped it. (Last week of March) Unfortunately i had to say no as i was on holidays in Melbourne at the time. (shame it was so close to East Sale) However i was advised the next ASP was in May and should expect a call in April. All the information on this forum has been so beneficial in getting me into the position i am today. So fingers crossed i get the call for the next ASP.

[BIGBEACH]

Haha, I got my first job out of high school for being the only one at a group interview not wearing thongs and boardies.

I don't think it's unreasonable for people going through these first ASPs to only want the job they've applied for. I want to be a pilot and an Officer in the RAAF... at the same time. It's going to be different for everyone. If it actually becomes the case that you don't know which job pathway you're on till after OTS then yeah, it seems very likely that some people will jump ship during their IMPS grace period if they dont get what they want. So as it stands, those self-selecting themselves out of contention is good thing. As for the people being bitter after failing, this is likely the first major 'NO' that some of them have received in their lives. Especially because it's almost a personal attack of 'no you as a person do not have the aptitude to do this job'. Whether or not they bounce back and learn from it before having another crack is the main concern.

After some more cyber sleuthing I found those 7 domains that you mentioned. Looks like they've introduced some new names for them whilst the tests remain the same. Hope you did well on the CLAN test if it was covered. It's the most significant (statistical) indicator of IFR performance apparently.


My ASP is coming up in 2 weeks time. Any tips on where to find those 7 domains for ASP practice

[tayra]

In the RAF thread on this very forum!

[EttaJames29]

Hey All,

Im wondering if anyone has been given any indication of how long we will wait for an officer selection board now that we’ve progressed through the ASP? Also, how much notice do you usually get?

I’ve heard the next intakes for initial officer training for RAAF are July and August and then not until next year.

It’s hard to organise your life when you’re stuck in this waiting game.

[EttaJames29]

Hey Hans,

That’s amazing news - congrats! I passed both pilot and mission at the ASP, but have only received an offer of progression for ACO at this point. Just deciding whether to wait the 12 months and retest or progress with this offer.

I suppose it can’t hurt to keep moving with this offer. If it ends up dragging out till next Jan anyway, I can always change my mind and resit ASP.

Just wondering how much notice they usually give you before officer selection boards. Not sure how frantically I should be studying up and visiting bases etc

[CBR205]

I get what your saying, but the civilian alternative isn't much better: 6 figure student debt then off to the outback to do tourist flights on 30k a year is the reality for most.

It's that or you have loaded parents who pay the $150,000 to secure you an airlines cadetship.

If I ever make it as a pilot in the ADF I am sure I will have my gripes, but serving your country has gotta be better than serving Qantas.

Pilots in general like most humans are a fickle bunch. I doubt many RAAF pilots would change joining if they had a time machine. But there comes a time for most where they either want out or get out. The grass is always greener after all.

The money is good depending on if you are on new or old pay scheme. But the locational instability and the effect that has on relationships outside of defence is likely the reason most get out.

[quantify]

Hey Hans, great info on ASP and thanks. Do you think this website will be helpful for the exams? https ://pilotaptitudetest. com/knowledgebase/royal-air-force/ (remove the space between . and com and s and :) this is based off the RAF testing which is what I presume we have switched to going off what everyone is saying and a little bit of evidence in their joining instructions.

Not sure how accurate this is but seems like it matches with how many tests there are, 20 for ASP and about 19 on the website. Also Tarya/Hans , what order do you think the 7 domains go for the pilot tests and the 6 for mission elementary?

[quantify]

Hans, great insight, I found a website which trains for RAF testing, it's called Pilot Aptitude tests and it has a data base of various defences forces and air lines, which also includes the tests for RAF and RAAF. It also matches with how many tests there will be on the day, which is about 20, and in the RAF data base, there are 19. Also Tarya/Hans, in what order do you think they prioritise the 7 domains for pilot and 6 domains for mission elementary?

[tayra]

If you are referring to https://pilotaptitudetest.com/ then save your money it wont help you (my opinion). There is another similarly named website (pilot aptitude systems) which I believe is a well known scam. If it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars it's not worth it.

If the ADF are using the same weightings as the RAF (highly likely) then each of the 7 domains has a roughly equal weighting (11-16% of total score) for pilot whereas ATC/ACO is skewed heavily towards "strategic task management". Each domain has a specific stanine cutoff from the 2nd-5th stanine which in statistical terms essentially ranges from below average to average. One could assume the ADF gets a slightly right-shifted distribution of individuals compared to the general population so below average may not appear as so. If you fail to meet the cutoff in any domain you do not pass for that role regardless of overall score.

The testing feels very much like an "either you have it or you don't" situation. As far as preparation goes, I could only confidently say that mental maths practice had a definite positive effect on my score. That and 20+ years of solid video games is likely your best bet for success. So go do your timetables and play some PUBG.

[quantify]

If you are referring to pilot then save your money it wont help you (my opinion). There is another similarly named website (pilot aptitude systems) which I believe is a well known scam. If it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars it's not worth it.

If the ADF are using the same weightings as the RAF (highly likely) then each of the 7 domains has a roughly equal weighting (11-16% of total score) for pilot whereas ATC/ACO is skewed heavily towards "strategic task management". Each domain has a specific stanine cutoff from the 2nd-5th stanine which in statistical terms essentially ranges from below average to average. One could assume the ADF gets a slightly right-shifted distribution of individuals compared to the general population so below average may not appear as so. If you fail to meet the cutoff in any domain you do not pass for that role regardless of overall score.

The testing feels very much like an "either you have it or you don't" situation. As far as preparation goes, I could only confidently say that mental maths practice had a definite positive effect on my score. That and 20+ years of solid video games is likely your best bet for success. So go do your timetables and play some PUBG.

Haha, great insight, I presume you have done the exams. From what I have gathered, there's no point trying to slack in any of the domains (not that I was planning to), my mental math is alright, could be better, gaming I've done since I was a child, was almost a professional in one at one stage. I think my hand eye coordination is ok, and my multi tasking maybe ok because in the game, I had to make fast paced decisions, communicate with my team and play well on the sticks. But I can't become over confident.

Also if you don't mind me asking, how many candidates passed in your session? was trying to calculate how many would be in an OSB pool before my session And was the short term memory stuff difficult? I struggle sometimes with that but I've seen significant improvement in my scores the last few days since I've been practising hard. Cheers.

[tayra]

Also if you don't mind me asking, how many candidates passed in your session? was trying to calculate how many would be in an OSB pool before my session

Are you going for DEO or ADFA?

My group had 5 passes for pilot, 2 competitive. The group after had 4 passes for pilot with none competitive. Those pass rates were apparently quite high compared to prior groups.

[Hunter16]

Hi all,

My intention here is not to be spoon feed information on the new ASP for Officer candidates (starting early 2018), rather I wish to know if anyone has come across any helpful sites/links in regards to any of the following domains:

Perceptual processing
Short-term memory and capacity
Spatial reasoning
Symbolic reasoning
Central information processing

Any other helpful links for other domains for the new ADF Officer ASP would be GREATLY appreciated!

Cheers guys.

[quantify]

Thanks again Hans, will look into other roles if they interest me.

Tayra I am applying for ADFA, that seems very tough. By group do you mean the group of 12 in the same ASP or do you mean another ASP. My guess is in the same ASP. If ASP started in March and we assume they have had 1 asp per week until now, that would be about 5 ASPs, from 40 candidates around 8 pass on average (that's what I got told from someone else that has done the ASP) and say about 4 deemed competitive. That would be 20 candidates in the OSB pool as of now (give or take, no idea how accurate these estimates are, if anyone can find out the ASP schedule that would be great, on the RAAF website it says it was supposed to be up late 2017 but there's nothing there. Or if you have a better idea of how many actually progress to OSB). Also selection for ASP after your assessment day is not based of a pool like FSP was correct? If you passed assessment day, you were invited. Although if you weren't invited to flight screening (if they didn't deem your profile competitive) then even if you get a good score on ASP, your chances may still be low to get selected for OSB. But hey, at least they give you chance now.

[Slezy9]

Hi all,

My intention here is not to be spoon feed information on the new ASP for Officer candidates (starting early 2018), rather I wish to know if anyone has come across any helpful sites/links in regards to any of the following domains:

Perceptual processing
Short-term memory and capacity
Spatial reasoning
Symbolic reasoning
Central information processing

Any other helpful links for other domains for the new ADF Officer ASP would be GREATLY appreciated!

Cheers guys.

The briefest of searches would have sent you here...

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/333897-raaf-flight-screening-program-merged-181.html#post10106576

[tayra]

Each ASP course had 10 candidates on it. The testing room can seat up to 12. Numbers are probably limited by accommodation, chaperone staff availability etc.

As of the end of March around 120-130 candidates had been screened. Seems about 1 in 20 are getting a competitive score for pilot. That rate may go up as BFTS (soon to be 1FTS again) can accommodate more students and thus the competitive score goes down to increase supply.

A competitive score for ADFA pilot may well be lower because you won't be entering the training pipeline for several years.

I think you are right in that any candidates who pass all the requirements up to and including their assessment day will most likely get an ASP slot. It may well still be merit based but the time you'll wait will be much shorter than the wait for flight screening was.

[quantify]

Each ASP course had 10 candidates on it. The testing room can seat up to 12. Numbers are probably limited by accommodation, chaperone staff availability etc.

As of the end of March around 120-130 candidates had been screened. Seems about 1 in 20 are getting a competitive score for pilot. That rate may go up as BFTS (soon to be 1FTS again) can accommodate more students and thus the competitive score goes down to increase supply.

A competitive score for ADFA pilot may well be lower because you won't be entering the training pipeline for several years.

I think you are right in that any candidates who pass all the requirements up to and including their assessment day will most likely get an ASP slot. It may well still be merit based but the time you'll wait will be much shorter than the wait for flight screening was.

I have not heard of anyone being paneled for an OSB yet, pilot or aco/atc.

Ah ok, that makes sense, considering I won't be applying for direct entry, I hope there is a lower score lol, seems sort of unfair for the DE people but supply and demand, ah well, no point complaining. Also could you gauge how many people from your ASP (and past ones) applied for direct entry vs ADFA? Will that even matter? I should probably just worry about myself instead of trying to count my chances haha. Does anyone know how many ADFA pilot OSB's they hold per year? Guessing it'll change drastically since ASP has just rolled out.

[Vatican]

Hey guys, I'm hoping some of you guys may be able to help me out seeing as recruitment have given me nothing.

So I was given an 'advanced offer' back in December, their way of saying "your offer isn't ready yet but we want you to know you don't have to redo ASP". They slapped on a date of 18th May and that was it. It's now April and I've received no information as to what that date is for, when to attend a PFA session or any answers to any questions for that matter.

Does anyone have any insight into the wording of my offer being "effective from 18th May"? Is that the date I leave, the date I start OTS, etc.? I've asked my case manager but she knows nothing. Another thing no one seems to be able to tell me is what happens to my stuff (i.e. furniture, belongings, car) when I leave? I'm assuming they store it but is what happens in between my responsibility or theirs?

Also, has anyone had any experience in carting their own PC builds on to base or ditched it for a laptop/tablet? I realise it sounds like a dumb question but I don't want to do anything unneccessary if I don't have to.

Has anyone been able to squeeze out of a lease early due to Defence service?

I'd appreciate any answers or insight, thanks guys

[quantify]

@hans That's great if the ADFA and DEO ASP is separate (hopefully that means lower score since there are more Pilot slots in ADFA especially at the start of the year), my chances aren't looking bad and I'm on ASP coming up quite soon so looks like I'll be one of the first few. Also, is there any tests which involve pen and paper (like additional testing / you session exams)? Or is it all mental arithmetic?

[quantify]

I can't really comment on that.

Like I've said many times before, the best thing you can do is practice any old aptitude test in general. Get used to reading and answering questions quickly and accurately.

"Preparing" yourself for the ASP will probably only get you a 5-10% increase in your results (besides good rest and nutrition). You can't really increase your cognitive ability or increase your IQ; it is what it is.

For most, there's bigger issues than your ASP grades. Recently I was reading a thesis on the Canadian military's pilot selection. It suggested that your psych evaluation will have just as heavy bearing on your chances of pilot selection as the ASP will. For example, those with higher levels of "consciousness" and lower levels of "extraversion" and "neuroticism" are looked upon much more favourably than those whose levels were reversed for these particular functions. Even for officer candidates in general, your second and third function for personality typing should be "intuited" and "thinking", with the first and fourth function having no bearing. This is the Five Factor Model and research started by Carl Jung, if anyone's not familiar with it).

While this is just speculation, I still think that this is perhaps why some candidates who scored higher than I did were not offered OSBs. The ADF know what they are looking for. There's not a lot you can do to change your traits, cognitive ability, personality functions, etc.

I'd just go along and try to enjoy the experience, and good luck!
Absolutely amazing stuff, can't believe you weren't recommended. This is very interesting, seems there's more to this than meets the eye. In the thesis, was there any mention of how these traits were determined and how old is this thesis? Are they based off some ASP results or your initial psych evaluation from assessment day

[Slezy9]

They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.


If that's the case, how come so many people fail pilots course then?? Failure rates traditionally hover around the 30-40% level. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

My course started with 24 and finished with 9.

[quantify]

I was recommended. I am still waiting on a date for my OSB.

The thesis was written in 2014 but is summarized from about 20 years of data.

The psych traits are determined during your assessment day. Your cognitive ability is determined during your ASP.

Your paperwork (on the provision you have received it by now) will list all the things ACMC take in to account when offering OSB's to certain candidates. I listed these a few pages back. Basically, countries like the UK, Canada, India, etc have had programs similar to the ASP for years. They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.

The ADF are essentially looking for specific indicators that define
successful pilot candidates:
- certain psychological traits
- a certain cut-off for cognitive aptitude testing
- high levels of motivation (so you don't have a cry half way through training and decide you want to quit)
- AVMED Class 1 (pretty self-explanatory)

How flexible they are on these indicators is anyone's guess.

Finally, during the OSB, I think the ADF will know within about 10 seconds of meeting you if they want to hire you or not.
That;s great, hope you get the offer. What's interesting is something I overlooked and just realised about the selection of ASP candidates. In the invitation email, it said that if I wasn't available for the given dates, "I would be placed back in the competitive pool for a potential future offer", does this confirm that ASP is merit based? Also based on your speculation, if the psych evaluation conducted at assessment day is just as important as the ASP results, then one could say that getting an offer for ASP would prove difficult if they determined your psych was not suitable for pilot. But again, they are screening for 3 jobs and not just pilot so getting an offer regardless for other roles makes sense.

[Slezy9]

So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.

If everyone who sat your course completed the ASP before starting pilot's course, then chances are you would have only had 9 people start the course in the first place, effectively lowering the fail rate. See the point I am making here?

Somewhere along the lines someone in the ADF has said "hmmm... countries that use this particular cognitive test have a much lower fail-rate in pilot's course than we do. Perhaps we should change the FSP to the ASP, it is a cheaper alternative after all."

No. The reason other countries have higher pass rates is because they have a different training philosophy. Take the Luftwaffe for example, once you're in you are given the hours required to meet there standard. In the RAAF you get 2 remedials, a psych consult and then a re-fly, fail that and you're potentially gone.

[josephfeatherweight]

So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.
Hans, that's a big call at an early stage!
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
(My course was 8 graduates of 28 starters - which is a waste...)

[tayra]

One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.


From my research and what I could squeeze out of those who are close to the new selection and training systems down in Sale; the ASP is not as good a predictor of success on pilots course up until wings level (it is, just not to a huge degree of statistical significance) as it is a predictor of successful completion of an operational conversion. Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU. At least with the new air academy it's very simple (or is intended to be) for someone to slot straight into another role should they fail early on.

I didn't get the privilege to attend flight screening but those on my ASP who had said that there was very little crossover. So objectively the ASP and flight screening are two completely different selection tools and being good at one doesn't necessitate being good at the other.

Also Hans, I wish as many people read my Masters thesis as that Canadian lady's.

[josephfeatherweight]

Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU.
That is indeed true!

[Slezy9]

We have adopted the RAF's selection criteria. I don't believe we will ever have a 100% pass rate but we will certainly be seeing an improvement.

We may have adopted the RAF selection process but we haven't adopted the RAF training philosophy...

Remedial training time limits will still see 20-30% of people not pass pilots course.

BTW, you are very confident for someone who hasn't even set foot in the door... :ugh:

[donpizmeov]

The RAF has everyone start a fast jet course. If a trainee fails this they will be streamed to multi eng or Rotarhead.
The RAAF has one completion standard. You either make it or you don't.
Because of this the RAF has always had a better pass rate.
The course I was on started a few months after Joseph's, 29 started and 19 passed.

[layman]

In addition to the preceding comments about training, my own observations about BFTS/2FTS are that the RAAF is as much about being able to quickly learn/adapt as it is in mastering required flying skills - hence the different approach.

With sufficient repetition most people who got to BFTS would likely complete 2FTS. But then military flying is rarely repetitious ...

[junior.VH-LFA]

18 started and 12 passed.

Agreed, you seem pretty good at telling a group of people (some of whom are QFI’s with years of experience) how it is. That’ll go down well on pilots course.

[layman]

Being smart and skilled isn't enough. Some examples:

Two ADFA graduates I knew, both with significant GA experience: one failed during BFTS; the other during 2FTS

Another student failed a re-test of the final sequence at BFTS. I later worked with a friend of theirs and was told the student was so stressed that failing the flight (and the course) came as a huge relief.

And another student was back-coursed because of (rumour had it) his 'attitude' toward instructors

[JPJP]

Calm down, Junior. I have relayed information and statistics that have been made from people whom are much smarter than we are, that's it. I can link you the reports and theses if you like.

Like I've said before, this thread has been helpful to me so I have decided to share my experience of the ASP for those who are still waiting for an invite - it was a 10 month wait for most of us, and may be longer for those yet to receive an offer.

I think I'll make this my last post and just get on with it.

This is a thread is for aspiring pilots after all, not disgruntled ones. And cheer up in the mean time, you do have a fantastic career.

I can see this ending in tears.

[Bullethead]

I completed my RAAF pilot course in 1976 and the scrub rate then was around 30% and the selection process was nowhere near as thorough or sophisticated as it appears to be these days which makes me wonder what benefit there is in having the RAAF flight screening process when the end result over the last 40+ years is essentially unchanged.

Cheers,
BH.

[finestkind]

BH

I have different figures. Srub rate was around 50+% in 80's and 90's. When all thru PC9 started scrub rate went up. Flight screening was introduced with the pass rate fluctuating between 55% and 65%. So definitely an improvement. But stats like photo's do lie. What do I mean? The old planning style of putting double the number you wanted on course to get the number you needed stuck. This simply means if we the RAAF had just put on the better risk people rather than filling the seats by placing high risk people on course the scrub rate would have been far less.

[quantify]

Can someone please explain how to do big division quickly in your head? I can simplify some fractions, but struggle with others.

You burn 150 kgs of fuel per hour. How much fuel will you need to travel 754 miles if you average a speed of 870 mph?

how do you divide the fraction of 754/870

You travel at an average speed of 190 mph. How much fuel do you need for a 114 mile trip if you burn 50 kgs per hour?

how do you simplify 114/190? I get it will become 57/95 after which I get stuck. Any help would be great, thanks.

[Bullethead]

G’day finest,

Thanks for the extra info, I wasn’t aware of the increase in the scrub rate in the 80s and 90s.

Cheers,
BH.

[JPJP]

Can someone please explain how to do big division quickly in your head? I can simplify some fractions, but struggle with others.

You burn 150 kgs of fuel per hour. How much fuel will you need to travel 754 miles if you average a speed of 870 mph?

how do you divide the fraction of 754/870

You travel at an average speed of 190 mph. How much fuel do you need for a 114 mile trip if you burn 50 kgs per hour?

how do you simplify 114/190? I get it will become 57/95 after which I get stuck. Any help would be great, thanks.

I’d use the fact that 60mph is a mile a minute, then work from there.

1. 870 mph is 14.5 miles per minute. (14*6 = 84 and half of 6 gets you the remaining 3 to get 87) use a factor of 10 to make the numbers smaller.

14.5 miles a minute, is 1450 miles in a 100 minutes. Half of 1450 is 725. So, in 50 minutes we cover 725 miles (nearly there) Add another 2 minutes at 14.5 miles per minute gets you to 753 and 52 minutes. Close enough. That’s .9 (ish) of an hour. .9 of 150 kg is 135kg.

They’ve given you numbers that work with mile/minute and it’s multiples. If it’s multiple choice, then you wouldn’t have to be so precise. Mile a minute, 3 times descent rates, and maybe 1 in 60 are some of the techniques that have a practical application. Most pilots are good at their 6 times tables.

There’s probably also a clever way to do it. I’m not clever ;)

[AT591]

Has anyone been invited to a pilot OSB (from March ASP's) or does anyone know of any invites being sent out?

[The Ayatollah]

Hey AT,

I haven't heard of any invites going out yet, but I know the next OSB for Brisbane candidates is in late May. If DFR have similar dates all around Australia, some invites might be going out in the next few weeks.

[Rich.ieP]

In addition to May, my case manager also said in August.

[spandexo]

Hi all

I am attending the 7th-10th May ASP.
If anyone is on the same course feel free to get in touch via private message.

[Rich.ieP]

So the round of offers for OSB have started to go out. I just received one for the 14th-18th week in May. It appears that we only pick one day so perhaps the OSB is shorter now? Does anyone have any information on this?
Thanks

[tayra]

All DEO aircrew OSBs are now lumped in with all other officer entry roles so you will just do the standard one day ROSB at your local or closest major DFRC.

[Jaxom1]

Hi guys,

Long term lurker, not sure if it's appropriate to post here. 25, work in management consulting in the US.
I have a undergraduate degree in Economics/Finance.

I'm an Australian Citizen, who moved over after undergraduate studies to Washington DC for work. I think ever since I was 16 I always had a desire to pursue a career in the RAAF however I wasn't confident I would be successful and hence went with the safe option. However after 1-2 years of work I still look back and keep thinking what-if. Job is great in terms of pay/benefits but I keep thinking nearly every weekend or fortnight I should've just gone for broke when I was younger and apply. Is it too late now? I have attempted a few times to apply but have withdrawn my application beforehand.

I'm not sure what this says about my personality of if i'd even be a good fit. Or am I even too old, I've also noticed my vision which use to be better than 20-20 at 18 has now started to suffer a bit at long distance, from doing too much excel modelling and powerpoint in front of a computer.

[Pillymonkey]

Hi all,

Just wondering what the general waiting time is between finishing your assessment day and being offered a spot at ASP? I assume it’s not too much of a wait as the program is only two days now..?

Regards.

[SHT]

Jaxom and whoever else wants to read,

I am also a long time lurker, first time poster, and let me start by saying, yes Jaxom, you posting here is appropriate!

I started to become motivated to make comment recently seeing some pretty bad advise getting thrown around by somebody who seems to ‘know it all’, and not take the hint from people in the actual know when it is time to take the humble and helpful road, vice the big nothing road. But ultimately I couldn’t be bothered, as the system has a way of sorting those people out eventually. However your post has inspired me to comment after a long time of watching from the back of the bus.

Your story sounds very similar to mine if I went back 10+ years, but skip forward and I have had and am still having a very successful career as a RAAF pilot.

I was the same age as you are now when I joined, I even read this thread back then too! And like you I was unsure as to whether I was good enough or who they wanted. I was scared of failure, as I tried to get in when I was 17 at school and failed all of the pilot aptitude testing miserably! I had the psychologist tell me to my face I was not smart enough and should consider another career.... I was destroyed, and thought it would never happen and I was too scared to go back for the longest time. But like you I kept coming back to wanting to do it, but I just couldn’t muster up the courage to apply.... till one day I just took the leap and the rest is history.

So how do you ask did I turn it around? Simple.... I worked my arse off!

17 year old me had read a couple of recruiting pamphlets, and I knew I always wanted to do it, and because I wanted it so bad I deserved it right? Wrong. So I just turned up, completely unprepared, and the result unsurprisingly was a big fat fail.

Skip to 25 year old me, who didn’t want a repeat of my experience at 17, because to be quite honest at the time it was life shattering, So I decided to prepare as best I could. I did all sorts of things, from Prep courses for maths, aptitude testing courses, visited several bases, spoke to actual pilots, lived and breathed it and worked my butt off.

So a bit of advice regarding some of the stuff I have read on here lately....

Now we could sit here and debate whether ASP is harder or easier than FSP, what traits they are testing for, what scores mean what and etc etc.....
But the reality is that none of that is useful to any of you, and the so called info regarding ASP scores etc you have all read in this thread is at best guesswork, and again not useful to you.

What is relevant to all of you is that ASP exists, there is nothing you can do about that, and you need to pass it to progress.

Sharing the gouge(good info) is one of the first lessons we teach you at the schools, and that’s what this thread should be about. I have seen comments from people not willing to divulge any gouge as to what is involved in the testing, telling you you can’t prepare you either have it or you don’t... make no mistake about it, this person is wrong and what we call a gouge hoarder, out there for himself, not to help out. That’s not how we operate in the aircrew world.

I am a QFI at one of the schools at the moment, and I have seen all kinds come through over the last few years, and I have seen all kinds not make it as well.
I can tell you that myself and all of my aircrew brethren would rather train a weaker candidate, with a good attitude that has to work their ass off to keep up, than the natural with a superior attitude who is not a team player. The later puts a bad taste in our mouths, and we will often weed them out, because frankly they don’t belong in the RAAF.

So why do I say all of this.... I say it for those of you out there that read some of the overly cocky comments on here from some of the recruiting warriors amongst you (you have all met one I am sure) and think maybe I am not as good as that guy/girl. Make no mistake, the false bravado is designed to put off the competition, and usually their puffed up story of how well they are doing is greatly exaggerated.

Now I am not going to lie, I know next to nothing about ASP and I cannot help you with that, that’s what sharing the gouge and all you lot are for! But I do know what product we are looking for, and I know who makes it through training as I see them and teach them everyday. Some of my proudest moments instructing have been seeing some of my struggling students get wings at the end from sheer will, determination and grit. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets through Pilots course by themselves.

So my advice would be this....

Be humble and help each other.

Share the gouge, give yourselves the best chance to find a way to prepare for the testing.

Ignore the naysayers, there is always a way to prepare for everything, you just need to find it!

Whilst you are in competition for a spot, run your own race, don’t worry about anybody else and how they may be doing. Remember other people need to pass too for you to have course mates! Start the teamwork now.

Finally, anonymous forums are one thing, but go and call a base and ask to be put through to a squadron, and ask to speak to a pilot. I have been on the other end of the line many times over the years and it always impresses. Get the advice from the horses mouth, rather than the recruiting warriors.

Finally, Good luck to everybody, and to Jaxon, you owe it to yourself to have a shot mate, don’t die wondering!

SHT

[Jaxom1]

Thanks SHT, I actually grew up in Perth! I'll give it a shot calling a few of the bases, if not i have 3 weeks of Holiday (sigh USA) which I could use head back home and do some intense "networking" haha.. Time is short.Would love to have a chat if your free sometime as-well if your cool with that.

Jax

[donpizmeov]

What a great post SHT. The best info so far on this thread.

[flighthappens]

Jaxom and whoever else wants to read,

I am also a long time lurker, first time poster, and let me start by saying, yes Jaxom, you posting here is appropriate!

I started to become motivated to make comment recently seeing some pretty bad advise getting thrown around by somebody who seems to ‘know it all’, and not take the hint from people in the actual know when it is time to take the humble and helpful road, vice the big nothing road. But ultimately I couldn’t be bothered, as the system has a way of sorting those people out eventually. However your post has inspired me to comment after a long time of watching from the back of the bus.

Your story sounds very similar to mine if I went back 10+ years, but skip forward and I have had and am still having a very successful career as a RAAF pilot.

I was the same age as you are now when I joined, I even read this thread back then too! And like you I was unsure as to whether I was good enough or who they wanted. I was scared of failure, as I tried to get in when I was 17 at school and failed all of the pilot aptitude testing miserably! I had the psychologist tell me to my face I was not smart enough and should consider another career.... I was destroyed, and thought it would never happen and I was too scared to go back for the longest time. But like you I kept coming back to wanting to do it, but I just couldn’t muster up the courage to apply.... till one day I just took the leap and the rest is history.

So how do you ask did I turn it around? Simple.... I worked my arse off!

17 year old me had read a couple of recruiting pamphlets, and I knew I always wanted to do it, and because I wanted it so bad I deserved it right? Wrong. So I just turned up, completely unprepared, and the result unsurprisingly was a big fat fail.

Skip to 25 year old me, who didn’t want a repeat of my experience at 17, because to be quite honest at the time it was life shattering, So I decided to prepare as best I could. I did all sorts of things, from Prep courses for maths, aptitude testing courses, visited several bases, spoke to actual pilots, lived and breathed it and worked my butt off.

So a bit of advice regarding some of the stuff I have read on here lately....

Now we could sit here and debate whether ASP is harder or easier than FSP, what traits they are testing for, what scores mean what and etc etc.....
But the reality is that none of that is useful to any of you, and the so called info regarding ASP scores etc you have all read in this thread is at best guesswork, and again not useful to you.

What is relevant to all of you is that ASP exists, there is nothing you can do about that, and you need to pass it to progress.

Sharing the gouge(good info) is one of the first lessons we teach you at the schools, and that’s what this thread should be about. I have seen comments from people not willing to divulge any gouge as to what is involved in the testing, telling you you can’t prepare you either have it or you don’t... make no mistake about it, this person is wrong and what we call a gouge hoarder, out there for himself, not to help out. That’s not how we operate in the aircrew world.

I am a QFI at one of the schools at the moment, and I have seen all kinds come through over the last few years, and I have seen all kinds not make it as well.
I can tell you that myself and all of my aircrew brethren would rather train a weaker candidate, with a good attitude that has to work their ass off to keep up, than the natural with a superior attitude who is not a team player. The later puts a bad taste in our mouths, and we will often weed them out, because frankly they don’t belong in the RAAF.

So why do I say all of this.... I say it for those of you out there that read some of the overly cocky comments on here from some of the recruiting warriors amongst you (you have all met one I am sure) and think maybe I am not as good as that guy/girl. Make no mistake, the false bravado is designed to put off the competition, and usually their puffed up story of how well they are doing is greatly exaggerated.

Now I am not going to lie, I know next to nothing about ASP and I cannot help you with that, that’s what sharing the gouge and all you lot are for! But I do know what product we are looking for, and I know who makes it through training as I see them and teach them everyday. Some of my proudest moments instructing have been seeing some of my struggling students get wings at the end from sheer will, determination and grit. Nobody, and I mean nobody gets through Pilots course by themselves.

So my advice would be this....

Be humble and help each other.

Share the gouge, give yourselves the best chance to find a way to prepare for the testing.

Ignore the naysayers, there is always a way to prepare for everything, you just need to find it!

Whilst you are in competition for a spot, run your own race, don’t worry about anybody else and how they may be doing. Remember other people need to pass too for you to have course mates! Start the teamwork now.

Finally, anonymous forums are one thing, but go and call a base and ask to be put through to a squadron, and ask to speak to a pilot. I have been on the other end of the line many times over the years and it always impresses. Get the advice from the horses mouth, rather than the recruiting warriors.

Finally, Good luck to everybody, and to Jaxon, you owe it to yourself to have a shot mate, don’t die wondering!

SHT

Absolutely. F*cking. Nailed it.

I would also add: don’t be the guy/gal that says “I wish I prepped/studied more”. Whether that’s at the end of screening/ XFTS/ aircraft type conversion.

You get 1 chance. Much of how it plays out, is in your hands. Make it count.

[Nadroj31]

SHT;


Thanks SHT, I have my ASP on the 7th and 8th of May and your reading your post has help ease my nerves.

[tayra]

In the interest of discussion and because some of that was directed at me I'll bite.

Before you go accusing me of hoarding wood-turning tools let me preface all of this by saying I have already helped numerous people who've messaged me here on pprune, facebook, reddit etc asking anything from ASP preparation tips and maths help to what to wear.

I have a background tutoring and teaching at University. My approach to helping people has always been transactional. That is, I'm more than happy to help, point someone in the right direction and answer questions if they, the student or whoever, has actually made an attempt to help themselves first. I would often get questions which essentially boiled down to "please immediately provide an answer to this overly broad and nuanced problem I have". Those were the people I did not help. If however someone came to me saying; "here's the problem I have, I think these are the issues I need to address, I've identified these avenues as possible solutions, can you help me?" I would be more than happy to jump in and give them everything I had to offer.
I've been getting the same sorts of questions about the ASP. There are those who just want a nudge in the right direction to keep conducting their own research or those who think I should detail all 20 tests, what each contains and decent strategies for approaching all of them. Would you help both of those people?

You don't have to go back very far in this thread at all to see all manner of questions shot down by the very same BFTS/2FTS instructors preaching about teamwork and helping your mates. Instead it was: "Read this thread, do your research, you'll never become an Officer in the RAAF if you can't solve these problems on your own." So, in the same vein, it has been alluded to already that the ASP involves the very same battery of tests that the RAF uses. The term "RAF CBAT" should be all you need to find every possible bit of information about what will be on and how to prepare for the ASP.

Obviously when you are in the RAAF and on pilots course helping your course mates out is the name of the game. This was already the spirit of things on my ASP so you needn't despair for us too much yet. I'm interested to hear where you and others draw the line between helping/supporting and cheating/fairness. People are told not to detail the inner workings of an OSB to other candidates as it undermines the selection process so why doesn't that apply in this case?

As far as what I suggested previously as preparation. I said some of the testing "feels like you either have it or you don't". This seems to be the consensus not just from me but from those who've recently completed the ASP and from the thousands of posts from those who've attempted it in the UK and Canada. On the second night of my ASP I stayed up giving a few candidates from the next course info about all the tests they would be doing the following afternoon and how I approached them. I warned them that it likely wouldn’t help a whole lot and after doing them they agreed that it didn't provide much help outside of a slight confidence boost and an easier night’s sleep. So you can say that it's wrong all you want but to quote one of your ilk from a previous page "you haven’t done it, don’t pretend you know more than the people who have." (sweeping statements fly both ways) :}

The only perfect preparation for the ASP would be to program your own copy of the tests but doing that you'd risk the postie delivering something addressed to you with a UK MoD letterhead. Even then, those crafty psychologists that be have created tests with very high test-retest reliability so they would be arguing that you can’t prepare at all. If you don't want to take an interest if how testing like this is designed and scored that's fine but there could be a reality that maybe it can't be prepared for as much as you'd like it to.

All that being said and despite how overtly defensive it might read, thank you for your insight, I and others will most certainly take it on board. Hopefully we can continue to discuss it without the hostility that pprune is known for.

[SHT]

Ok, so I seem to have struck a chord with a couple of you, which believe it or not is a good thing!

I spent a bit of time prior to replying here, as it’s easy to have an emotional and defensive response, which let’s face it is fairly natural, but often it will skew the message trying to be sent. So instead I have thought hard about how to make my points in a constructive way for all who read, and hopefully I will hit the mark....

Firstly a little background as to what I am about to say.

I obviously know a lot of RAAF pilots, I have been around the traps for a while, and I can tell you there are good ones, not so good ones, nice ones and not so nice ones, a mixed bag really. But whilst we all have our differences, fundamentally we are all very similar people, with very similar values. You could put this down to recruiting and the psych assessment if you like, and I would attribute part of this to that, but I would attribute the majority to our shared experience of a combination of basic training and pilots course. Usually even the most cocky amongst us are humbled very quickly on course, as it is easily the hardest thing you will have ever done and everybody struggles at some point. It is a very humbling experience, and excellent character building!

Like I said we all think in a very similar way, we all have the same pride (think slight superiority complex) due to what we have undertaken and achieved. Now because we all think the same, one of the things I can tell you is that none of us outside of PSA, and probably within, have much faith in the fact that a test designed by psychs can be more effective than
putting somebody on pilots course for 2 weeks (FSP) and seeing what actual flying/ learning aptitude they have. At FSP if you were an absolute weapon, and got a good wrap from your QFI, the OSB was almost a formality. Now I am not trying to start a discussion on the merits of FSP vs ASP, nor diminish anybody’s Achievements of passing ASP here, as from what I understand it is very hard with a high failure rate, I am merely building towards a point.

Now this is all just my opinion, but I know it is shared by many of my peers and I see no real reason why it would differ in the eyes of the people on your board, shy of towing the party line.

The point I have been building to, is that the OSB has always been a big part of the process, but I believe now more than ever it will be a much bigger discriminator than in the past, as every FSP candidate automatically sat a board, whereas it doesn’t sound that way for ASP. They also had a report and recommendation from an actual QFI vs just a test score. What this means for you guys out there, is you need to be well prepared and check your egos at the door as your job just got a little harder as they don’t know as much about you and your personality before you walk into that very scary door.

Now this brings me to the ultimate goal of this post, you are going to be assessed by people like me, with the same experience base, and the same expectations. We would be looking for the same things. I would like you all to think about the following 3 things:

Perception is reality. We only get to see you for a short amount of time, especially now with the introduction of ASP.

Respect is hard earned and easily lost.

Good bloke factor. Apologies to any ladies reading this, it applies to you too I just don’t really know how to word that. This will go a long long way in your favour.

Ultimately what the OSB are asking themselves throughout your interview, is would I want to be on Squadron with this person? If the answer is yes, you will get recommended.

Now back to having struck a chord....

On course we will often do a thing called buddy debriefing, where you will bring a buddy into your debrief and he listens to all your debrief points, warts and all, then you theirs. The aim of this not to embarrass, but to hopefully learn from others mistakes and triumphs, which may prevent you making the same mistake.

Now make no mistake about it, 80% of a debrief will focus on where you went wrong, the route cause and how to fix it. So students need to learn to accept constructive criticism very early on, and take what’s said in the debrief for the learning opportunity it is or they won’t last long. The biggest barrier to success is a student who believes they know more than the instructor, doesn’t accept their mistakes, and instead makes excuses. They won’t see through their own defensiveness and take the lessons on board, and in turn they won’t learn and improve. I have seen many a student like this suspended from course. Their own ego is their undoing.

The reality is as a student you don’t know what you don’t know. You need to trust in your QFI, they want to see you pass, if for nothing else than failing you is way to much hard work 😉

Now to Tayra and Hans, please consider this post your buddy debrief. You have both done some great work on here in helping others, and it sounds like more behind the scenes, I congratulate you on that and encourage you to keep it up, goes towards that good bloke factor(again sorry ladies)!

However from what I have seen you both also have had tendency’s to at times be the student with the barrier mentioned above, in that I have read some interactions with a combination of knowing better and with me excuse making and blaming others.

Now it is difficult to sometimes ascertain tone through writing, which can potentially skew what you are trying to say, I understand that, and I am only going off what I have read. In person you guys may be 180 out, but it would be remiss of me not to address this. Some of what you have written has bugged some fellow Aircrew and if I am being honest myself. Now remember as I said earlier we all think the same way. My concern is that if I have seen it here, it could come out in group activities at the OSB, which is basically being assessed by us.

As I said earlier respect is hard earned and easily lost, please remember that on here next time before biting back at somebody else. If they make an overly negative comment, take the high road and ignore it. Please don’t diminish all the good work you guys have done on this thread!

Not just to you two guys, but to everybody, read through the above again and take a critical look at yourselves and make an honest assessment. Does he make a valid point? Could I have handled that better? How could I react next time etc... The key to improvement is accepting that you can make mistakes, assess them and try to find a way from letting them re-occur.

So in finishing, please don’t take the debrief as a dig, but as a debrief is supposed to be taken. You can rest assured that you have both helped a lot of people out there, both intentionally and unintentionally.

I am on here as I am trying to help, and I would honestly like be nothing more than to see a post from you guys telling us all you will be starting some time soon.

Cheers

SHT

[SHT]

Hey guys, sorry just a quick addition of a story that might help to add a little context to where I am coming from....

A little while ago we had a student that was pretty solid with flying, but he was very difficult in debriefs. He was quite sure of himself and more often than not would become very defensive with the QFI’s points, and displayed a few of the tendencies that I previously mentioned. He very quickly got a bad rep amongst us and people didn’t really want to fly with the guy. So my boss came to me and asked me to talk to him and sort it out.

Now I can tell you it was expecting a very difficult and awkward conversation, and this is pretty much word for word what I said....

“Dude your flying is solid, but in the debriefs most QFI’s think you are a bit of a dick”

Sounds harsh, but I am a rip the band aid off when it comes to bad news kind of guy. Now that’s how it started, and I obviously elaborated with some pretty specific examples.....

So what was the reaction on the other side of the conversation..... he was completely mortified! He had no idea that he was perceived that way, and he was especially embarrassed that the QFI body had that view of him.

The good news here was his reaction, he clearly wasn’t intending to come across that way and had not realised how he was being perceived.

The result was he changed the way he operated, people became happy to fly with him and he ultimately got better. He actually thanked me for having that conversation when he got his wings.

I guess take what you want from that story, but hopefully there is a lesson there that everybody can benefit from.

Perception is often reality.

SHT

[FarQues]

This must be a first for pprune!

It is nonsense like that which unfortunately cheapens your argument. Aside from that, however, some good points, decently presented.

Folks like yourself and Tayra have been immeasurably helpful in passing on info regarding ASP and the wider recruitment process. However that doesn't exempt you from reproach. All that carry on about whether someone should apply themselves equally to both Mission and Pilot testing at ASP a couple pages back was unnecessary, and clearly left a sour taste in a lot of users mouths. Now that doesn't particularly excuse some of the thinly veiled sledges thrown around since, but there is a fairly clear cause and effect that goes on.

Something to bear in mind is that these are potentially your future colleagues and superiors you're interacting with here, it could be beneficial to try and not look like a prick before you're even through the door (that stands for everyone). Whether they're in the wrong or not, getting into a shouting match through the medium of an "anonymous" online forum is not the appropriate course of action.

Perhaps a clean slate couldn't hurt though. And seeing as good as all of this thread is now outdated, an ASP specific one would make life easy for future candidates.

Farq.

[Rich.ieP]

HI all,

Just passing on some info I have received.
It seems both Air Force and Navy OSB invites are going/gone out (Good luck to everyone!). The dates are; 14th-18th May for Air Force, 21st-25th May for Navy.

All the best.

[13Beast]

From my research and what I could squeeze out of those who are close to the new selection and training systems down in Sale; the ASP is not as good a predictor of success on pilots course up until wings level (it is, just not to a huge degree of statistical significance) as it is a predictor of successful completion of an operational conversion. Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU. At least with the new air academy it's very simple (or is intended to be) for someone to slot straight into another role should they fail early on.


I have always wondered, what would happen to someone who successfully got their wings, passed fast jet training, yet failed their operational conversion course onto a JSF/Rhino/Growler? Would they be kept on as a pilot still within the RAAF, just sent off onto a conversion course for a different, non-fast jet airframe (i.e. C17/P8/tanker/C27 etc)?

[layman]

Some examples I'm aware of people who completed 2FTS:

* "failed" during OCU, ended up as a QFI at Pearce at 79 Sqdn
* "failed" during training at 76 Sqdn and had a long (and successful) career in a variety of RAAF squadrons before joining the airlines
* "failed" after 2FTS during training on a non-fast jet type. Never flew operationally
* a couple who only ever flew one operational tour ... possibly just weren't cut out for the type of flying expected of them.

These 'failures' are relative - most would seem to be good pilots perhaps not suited to the demands of flying required by the RAAF

On a more optimistic note, I know of many more that were successful all the way through and served multiple operational tours.

From my observations, 2FTS means you have your "L" plates ... you'll then do a type conversion, possibly an operational conversion, and then (for non-fast jets) start on the process of training for your captainancy - and then might switch types and start the process again. It seems you never stop learning in the RAAF

regards
layman

[josephfeatherweight]

Would they be kept on as a pilot still within the RAAF, just sent off onto a conversion course for a different, non-fast jet airframe (i.e. C17/P8/tanker/C27 etc)?
Absolutely, positively - yes. And, probably the conversion of their preference.

[13Beast]

Thanks for the quick responses guys! It is fantastic to hear direct from past and present RAAF pilots themselves as to the ins and outs of these sorts of things.

All three of you have confirmed what I had hoped was the case; that after getting your wings yet subsequently not quite meeting the grade for a particular airframe conversion, you are still a pilot who the RAAF is committed to finding a role that you can fulfill and that you won't be out on the street looking for a new job.

Couple further question; given now it appears fast jet training will ultimately intend to be streaming graduates out into either Super Hornets, Growlers or JSF; would this be determined largely due to slots in squadrons that are available, or would a bunch of other factors go into determining which of the three airframes the RAAF decides is for you?

Growlers for instance seem really interesting in what they do, yet with 12 (now 11) Growlers, compared to 24 Rhinos and an incoming 72 JSFs, would this make a Growler slot probably the most competitive of the bunch to get in?

And would the focus on the RAAF be more to train up new pilots onto JSFs, and source Growler pilots from existing Rhino pilots who perhaps can convert relatively quickly across to the Growler platform?

Again, I have no idea how it is going to work with the three fast jet platforms, and if the RAAF will go all out and have three conversion courses running at all times for new pilots, or try to save $$$ and try to do what I mentioned above; i.e. sourcing Growler crews from existing Rhino/ex-Hornet single seat pilots, and given the numbers split between the three fast jet platforms, instead focusing a LOT more on training up new pilots for the 72 JSFs coming rather than the existing 24 Super Hornets?

[Slezy9]

I don't know what the current way of doing things is but in the past, the guys who performed the best on Intro Fighter Course (76SQN) went to the single seat, the Classic Hornet, the others the Pig.

That's not to say the Pig pilots were worse pilots, but just they way it generally worked out.

I guess the thinking is that the Nav will help do some of the duties...

[13Beast]

I don't know what the current way of doing things is but in the past, the guys who performed the best on Intro Fighter Course (76SQN) went to the single seat, the Classic Hornet, the others the Pig.

That's not to say the Pig pilots were worse pilots, but just they way it generally worked out.

I guess the thinking is that the Nav will help do some of the duties...


Thanks Slezy9. Interesting to know that. I often wondered if the instructors etc over the course of fast-jet training may indeed have a "top" fast jet that they stream the best performers on to. Also, if your own interpersonal skills as observed during the course of flight training would be a determinant in them ultimately deciding if you'd be better as a single seat pilot or working together with a fellow ACO/Nav.

Certainly makes it interesting with the three fast jets now, especially given how something like the Growler is quite unique in the RAAF now. Curious to see what sort of pilot they'd be thinking would be more suited for an EW role in the Growler as opposed to a more traditional strike role in a Rhino or JSF. And then again, who'd be better in a single seat strike fighter role (JSF) as opposed to a multi crew (Rhino).