Engineers risking my job!

[inandout]

If they keep on with their pay claim many including myself will lose their job. Why should they get 5% when most others in the company only get 3 % and that is based on their performance, that is, it is not automatically given. They have now managed to mess up so many who had holidays planned long ago - great work, just get on with the job you are paid to do or move on. In fact the ones who really deserve a pay increase are the Qantas Link pilots. Mr Dickson should cut mainline pilot wages for them.A Qantas Link Pilot works much harder than along haul one, and we all know that- what's the saying " beats working for aliving"
These guys are placing the whole companies future in jeopardy, one only has to look to America to see what can happen.
I know most people agree with this but are not always willing to say so.
:}

[woollcott]

Hmmmmm - just trying to guess your age.....must be about 14, no wait, 13.
However, if I am wrong and you are actually involved in aviation, please find another field immediately.

[satmstr]

umm , if you dont like it leave!!! but i think many other sectors outside aviation are also asking for around 5%. last i remember i think teachers and most govt sectors are also looking for 5%....oh yeah back in the aviation sector i think the ATC guys are risking your job even more if you think 5% is too much they want 63%, oh how about Saudi Arabia, Iran,Israel maybe you should have a chat to them as well since they are also putting up the price of oil. which also is risking your job.

also you state that "others in the company only get 3 % and that is based on their performance" well if thats the case we should be getting a nice bonus every year!! engineering is so understaffed its beyond a joke. everyone is doing 110% until the recent union action and it now shows how understaff we really are!!!

The only thing i do agree with you on is the Qlink pilots do deserve more $$$.

[ITCZ]

If they keep on with their pay claim many including myself will lose their job.
If you can't stand the heat, you get out of the kitchen.

This is the way industrial negotiations have been run since the first industrial relations showdowns commenced in the mills of the north of England, almost four hundred years ago.

We need men and women of conviction to fix and fly our aeroplanes. Grow a pair, or get out.

Why should they get 5% when most others in the company only get 3 % and that is based on their performance, that is, it is not automatically given.
There is a shortage, you mug, and that is the way labour economics works.
I know most people agree with this but are not always willing to say so.
Oh really? In your mind only, I think. We seem to be running 1:3 in this informal poll here so far.

Maybe "most people" should grow a pair too and say what they think.

[Yon Garde]

And today's "RJ Hawke memorial Wind Up" award goes to......................wait for it..................

[FULLY SICK DICK]

inandout.

These guys are placing the whole companies future in jeopardy, one only has to look to America to see what can happen.
I know most people agree with this but are not always willing to say so.


You believe too much of management's rhetoric. Maybe you should look in the mirror and say 'should I keep bending over and copping it without lube?'

What the engineers are asking for is more than reasonable. They are asking for money that is owed to them when the price of fuel was not as high as it is now. No one complained when they took a wage freeze when times were tough.

In fact the ones who really deserve a pay increase are the Qantas Link pilots. Mr Dickson should cut mainline pilot wages for them.A Qantas Link Pilot works much harder than along haul one, and we all know that- what's the saying " beats working for aliving"


Who are you to judge? If you have a problem with your salary or other people's salary, you have a chance to "BARGAIN" with the company with whatever means are legal. That is what the engineers are doing. Standing up for what is fair and just. If you don't like it complain to all those managers and executives earning millions in bonuses through your efforts.


WAKE UP!!!!!:}

[airsupport]

And your first post too. :rolleyes:

Can't wait to read your next ones, IF you survive. ;)

[neville_nobody]

A Qantas Link Pilot works much harder than along haul one

A life lesson for you, it isn't about working harder it's about working smarter

one only has to look to America to see what can happen

Yeah where the board fire employees so they can then get bonuses whilst the airline goes down the gurgler.

Be interested in a comparison of Dixon's Real pay increases vs the staffs.

[Reeltime]

oh boo hoo inandout...

Have you ever stood up and fought for yourself eh? no..i thought not :hmm:

[inandout]

All airlines are in absolute peril with this fuel thing and these guys are just helping to tip the company over the edge, then none of us will have work.
Why can't they see that- because it's not their money.
Not many airlines will survive this fuel crisis but I hope Qantas is one that does..:}

[Propstop]

Inandout, you poor naive person. Please do not leave the island as you will be shocked at the real world out there where people genuinely struggle, and in the case of the Qantas LAMES they are very deserving of the pay increase, as are all LAMES.
Did you know the average age of the LAMES is about 58 and if the profession is not made attractive to the younger people there will be even less than there are now.
Contrary to opinion the skills needed to maintain modern aircraft are very high, from an apprentice to a skilled engineer is roughly ten years and the equivalent to a couple of university degrees in education and exams with a pass mark of 75%.
Please refrain from commenting on something you definitely know so little about. Better still try and talk to a LAME and get a first hand idea what they are facing in QF today.

[Rotor n Wings]

Inandout


Yeah that's about all you would be capable of.

[porch monkey]

Maybe the "company" should have thought about that before they cut all the engineering to shreds, and became dependent on the few remaining working overtime to make it up. Now that the remaining few aren't willing to work overtime, the "company" is in the ****. Simple solution really. Pay them what they are worth. Remember the pay freezes? What has inflation been like the last few years? Care to take a guess at how far behind engineers wages are these days? Thought not. If this drives a certain GD out of the company, you'll ALL be better off. Going to thank those that helped it happen when it does? Or will you just accept what others gained for you?:yuk:

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

I've got to fly with dickheads like this and they embarass the crap out of me. Yeah, sure we deserve more money but why at the expense of mainline? What's your input industrially?? Looser. :mad::mad:

[inandout]

Engineers do a great job but no more than those working in the office for much less. Why are they so special for doing their job, after all that was their choice. I know many working for Qantas who work just as hard and received only 3%, in fact some got nil. I do work in the industry and find most pilots and people agree with me but are hesitant to say so.:}

[Driptray]

I am amazed that they only want 5%, as far as I am concerned they should be looking for a hell of a lot more. The company I work for are looking down the barrel of 25% over 3 years, the pilots are asking for more than 30%. The days of the airlines paying good money for engineers seems to have long gone. If my flights get delayed due to industrial action so be it.

[Pinky the pilot]

Hmm, my troll detector just went off!!:ugh:

[splashman]

sounds like a troll to me

Sooky Sooky Lah Lah:):=:D:ok::ok::ok:

[Kiwiconehead]

If they keep on with their pay claim many including myself will lose their job

Hi Geoff - is Leigh starting to get annoyed?

[Capt Claret]

It obviously makes sense to accept 3% with inflation running at > 4%. Doesn't it? :ugh:

[DELAY 410]

Quote: "Engineers do a great job but no more than those working in the office for much less"

I suppose office workers don't need years of training, aren't up at all times of the day and night, in all types of weather, aren't respondsible for keeping the pilots arses as safe as possible, don't kill 500 people when they stuff up their office job, and do't go to jail for doing so.

Obviously you, and the many others you talk of, are ill informed or ignorant, learn about what the engineers actually do, then comment or try and fly a broken plane without wishing you had an engineer there to fix it for you.

[ejectx3]

Just for the record, having experienced, long and short haul and GA, the description "beats working for a living" you young fool is often muttered with in sarcastic tones in long haul in a nod to

1) Debilitating fatigue after long haul flying
2) Being a stranger in your own life
3) Missing half your kids birthdays
4) Spending half your life with total strangers.

etc etc etc.

So please learn the facts before you mouth off total bolocks.

You pick the career path that suits you in flying and if you want the one where the big money is....then bloody well work to get there.

As another learned man said, "Work smarter not harder" but often personal lifestyle choice and priorities make the position of lesser paid but more normal life regional pilot the perfect job.

Grow up.

I think you'll finbd that 99.9999% of 3% ers (all QF employees) are at one with the enginees and damn proud that they have had the balls to speak up where we all have been cowed by fear and/or history.

You sir (the author of this thead).... are a disgrace.

[kotoyebe]

While Inandout is obviously a troll, you would be surprised how close to the truth he is. I was quite shocked at talking to a fellow QF employee who works at Geoff's business travel agency. She said you'd be hard pressed to find just one person in support of the engineers. The main problem is that they all think that if they only got 3%, why should anyone else get more. And they believe GD's doom and gloom. As far as they are concerned, you all get 130k a year, and got 7% bonus last year.

There isn't a lot of logic in their thinking. In fact they get hammered every day at work because they can never get enough people. They keep recruiting but no body stays. The reason? They don't pay enough, and have ridiculous procedures dreamed up by people with no experience in dealing with the job. It hasn't quite dawned on them the irony between this, and their lack of support with the engineers!

I've actually emailed their union to get some more information out to them to balance the misinformation up a bit.

[Keg]

Easy folks. It's the first day of school holidays in NSW. It should be no surprise when threads like this surface! :ok:

[Sprite]

Yeah, we all should accept less than inflation pay "rises" so that our wonderful management and CEO's can go on destroying the company by removing more and more irreplaceable staff while using the reduced costs to increase their bonuses, ignoring the fact that this will severely impact the long term sustainability of the company. Doesn't matter to them though, they've got their bonuses.

WE ALL SUPPORT THE ENGINEERS

GOOD ON YOU, GUYS...DON'T GIVE UP

yes I've been disrupted by their action, but what choice did they have when 18 months of negotiation got the same disgraceful response from 'management'? What use is negotiation when the other party refuses to negotiate? What recourse is left then?

You'll never hear one of us making that stupid PA ("your delay is the engineers fault"). More like "the delay is the fault of management for offering only a pay cut and refusing to negotiate".

Inandout...nice one, TROLL. Interesting trying to ID the pilots who agree with the engineers, when its ALL OF US!!

[Teal]

inandout - hopefully you can understand this: Inflation is currently running at 4.2% and trending upwards. Average earnings in the private sector for the 12 months ended Feb 08 increased by 5.0% (source:ABS). The 5% claim by engineers is perfectly reasonable in the circumstances. Nurses, teachers and police in various States have received substantially more than this very recently.

[indamiddle]

my mates in the building trade are being given 15% pay rise over the next 3 years without even negotiating. go the ginger beers!!

[inandout]

I understand many in the work force have received more than 3%, however that does not justify Engineers getting more than their fellow workers at Qantas who got 3 %. Many of those in the so called office work much longer hours for less than an engineer and many do have degrees with years of study to get to that position and they had to earn their increase, it was not just given to them. What I am saying is if we are not carefull none of us will have a job because costs will over take income and that relationship is now in motion. Whist many pilots on this site do support the engineers most employees at Qantas do not and further want to keep their job. The situation is getting really bad and soon it will start to effect many. Qantas can not operate at a loss. Those of you here supporting them are in the minority and they may just cost you your job. When fuel hits $150 Qantas will no longer be able to run as it does and the model will change and maybe it will no longer require many peoples services.:}

[flying-spike]

On that basis you should just jump and save the company sh#$loads. It is all about the greater good isn't it. Loser

[Henry Winkler]

Green Gorilla,
Which Q pilot are you referring to? I was pretty sure this bloke wasn't a pilot, in fact he doesn't even seem to work for Qantas, he works in the "industry". Just trying to keep the facts straight, not fair to pigeon hole.

[Dropt McGutz]

inandout is aircraft's new moniker. Remember him? The moderators finally banned him for going on with crap like this.

[max1]

Inandout,
If your mates in the office are crucial to the company, they would never get rid of them. If your dedicated, highly-trained, long-hour working office staff fulfil some irreplaceable function, and management realise the role of that function you have nothing to worry about.
Fortunately you will be the last to go as those skills you talk about are not easily replaced. The rest of the workforce should toe the line and only ask for what your mates are able to get in the open market.

[flying-spike]

"The rest of the workforce should toe the line and only ask for what your mates are able to get in the open market."

Hmmmmmm Don't think he has too many now.

[DELAY 410]

When fuel hits $150 Qantas will no longer be able to run as it does and the model will change and maybe it will no longer require many peoples services.
Yes, I agree, the model will change, it always does. Yes maybe in the future model Qantas won't require as many peoples services, but this has little to do with the engineers asking for 5%, just because they are asking for 5% doesn't mean they think they are worth anymore than anyone else. It's just what they think they should get, the other unions are more than welcome to table the same offer, I'm sure the engineers won't begrudge them for it.
Alot of people are doing it tough now, but all the engineers have really done is stopped working O/T. Oh, and did you know the 4hr stoppages are because Qantas wouldn't let their union have feedback meetings on the base, and the company chooses to dock them 4hrs pay regardless of how long a meeting actually takes place for, so would you go back to work before that 4hrs was up and work for nothing...really.
Did you know that the engineers can't take leave to spend time with thieir families, are getting their pays docked, are being harassed by management, and are actually working harder now than ever to do their jobs using the system put in place by that management, they are just tired of trying to make a broken system work, and are tired of trying to highlight that to an ignorant management.
Have you heard of the XPT clause, overtime bank and many other things included in the EBA that are meant to erode working conditions. These are also the reasons why the EBA was rejected by the engineers.
This is so much bigger than 5% in the broader picture, it's about quality of life. Look if you are happy with 3%, fine, I hope you got it, but when someone asks for more, think of why first before speaking.

[Redstone]

Inandout, if the cost of fuel hits $150 or higher it will make little difference to the company what the engineers got in terms of a pay rise...... although you must bear in mind that with the sell off of the frequent flyer programme they will have covered their fuel bill for the next year, and payed themselves a nice juicy bonus to boot. Dixon coming out and stating that "executive wages have been frozen" is a nothing statement. As someone has already pointed out, they all just recieved a raise in December. The Qantas unions should be calling for a bonus freeze. Now that would cetrainly be interesting.

[division1]

inandout
I understand many in the work force have received more than 3%,
however that does not justify Engineers getting more than their fellow workers at Qantas who got 3 %.


Seeing there's nothing to do now during this truce? period,
I might as well feed the troll too. He could even re-name this
thread "FEED THE TROLL" for more hits. :bored:

http://www.asu.asn.au/data_man/qantasunions/index.htm
ALL qantas workers are behind the lame claim,
ALL qantas workers should be getting more than 3%
Like most QF policy, the 3% policy should be scrapped.

[Howard Hughes]

Why should they get 5% when most others in the company only get 3 %
Because 3% does not even keep pace with inflation at the moment! :rolleyes:

Where I work we recently got 4% over 3 years, along with two seperate additional increases of $5000 and $10,000 respectively!:eek: These increases recognise the considerable increase in the cost of living and recognition of skills.:ok:
however that does not justify Engineers getting more than their fellow workers at Qantas who got 3 %.

All Qantas employees are currently behind inflation, all groups should get an increase at their next EBA, someone needs to go first, so why not the engineers?

[Biggles_in_Oz]

inandout
Is the work that you do at Q directly related to safety ?
will people die if you stuff up ?

All organisations requires various skills, but those who are directly responsible for safety issues should always get paid more than others.
So, I have no problem with LAMEs, pilots, doctors, nurses, et all, being paid (very) well.

And as has been stated many times already, the execs get very hefty bonuses that far exceed the rate of inflation.

A pox on you. :yuk:

[delta 4]

Dixon bangs on about creating 6-8000 new jobs...........where are they? Certainly not at the bloody coal face. Engineering has gone backwards by around 600jobs in recent years. Gawd knows how many in catering/porters/ground equip staff etc have been lost.

Way too many analysts, number crunchers and middle managament. Like ice on a ship; too top heavy and bound to capsize eventually.

We need a good cull to save the company and keep it the right way up..........:E

D4

[Shrug]

I've an "office job" @ Qantas and on retrenchment notice.

Like said on the other thread, I've also been doing stuff outside/above my award for a few years and not paid for it. Accepted it as was not in a position like ALAEA members.

Looking at the Careers One site at the minimum average wage for my award position, I'm about 12% lower than THE MINIMUM.

I hope LAME's, you get your 5%.

Shrug.

[DELAY 410]

Shrug, nice to see "some" office workers actually look out of their windows at the world outside. Your support for the workers cause is much appreciated.:ok:

[600ft-lb]

The talk of having to raise fares by 20% if oil goes to $200 a barrel, is it really so much ?

Australia to America, cheapest flight(kiwi's... whoda thunk it ?) in August is around $2100 including all taxes, and $2500 on Qantas, including all taxes.

2100 - 400(tax) = 1700

1700 x 120% = 2040 +tax = $2500.

So the cheapest flights now cost the same as a mid range flight. Most people if they can afford to fly long haul can afford to pay an extra 20% which is what people are doing anyway with their car expenses.. even moreso..

The good old days may be over.. for LCC's, but maybe the airlines should look at consolidation rather then continuous growth. Nothing can keep growing forever they should focus on surviving this fuel price shock. In fact, why does the airline HAVE to keep growing, why can't it ever be good enough ?

[WheelsandBrakes]

So are the office employees the only ones in Qantas who earn their pay increase InandOut?

You are obviously just taking everything the media spin doctors at QF at face value. Have you actually spoken to an engineer to find out how his/her productivity/efficiency has increased in the past few years?

How about asking the Adelaide engineers who had a change in roster last year resulting in a PAY CUT of over 5% - no efficiencies there for QF was there! Or the Perth engineers who were put on to a nasty 8 hour roster because they would not say yes to going on a roster that would result in a PAYCUT of around 10%? They are now on a roster that is a PAYCUT of around 2% - again QF hasn't gained any increase in efficiencies, (savings), there have they?

What about looking at the increase in the number of aircraft in the QF fleet now in comparison to 2 years ago and then looking at the reduction in the engineering numbers in that time - but no the LAMES and AMEs aren't working harder! No way on earth do they deserve a pay increase let alone one greater than the one YOU received!

As for losing your job? I can't remember the last time I actually had job security with this company. You must be the only one of 36000 employees that did!

For a portion of the workforce to stop working O/T and the result being utter chaos around the network is a complete and utter STUFFUP by the people who have been paid large amounts to ensure the continued viability of the company - i.e MANAGERS AND THE BOARD!

They are the ones who are now damaging this company - not the engineers! You don't think they deserve a payrise of 5%? Who gives a toss about your opinion! They obviously believe that they do and are tired of continually being told by the people in the upper circles that this is not possible because of blah, blah, blah.....

As an employee of QF with 17 years service every time an EBA has come around it is the same sob story - "we can't afford to give you more than 3% because .....! At the same time we want you to give up this, and this and then that won't even guarantee the YOU will have a job next week because it all comes down to OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS."

So you may not have a job because of their actions? Give me a break! Send your sob story to the people who actually make the decisions.

[Shrug]

Shrug, nice to see "some" office workers actually look out of their windows at the world outside.

DELAY 410, LAME's are not the only ones screwed down by THE COMPANY. Unless you get out and about you may not know that it is company wide.

I'll be OUT in a few weeks time anyway. After a couple of decades it's a weird feeling but one door closes and another opens :ouch:

[tail wheel]

inandout.

"If they keep on with their pay claim many including myself will lose their job."

If neither you nor your Siamese Twin work for Qantas, how will you lose your job? :confused:

If you start another troll thread, both you and your Siamese Twin (of some years standing in PPRuNe) will be out of the game! Ditto if your Siamese Twin posts another free advert to flog your used books!

:mad:

Tail Wheel