Nice or Cannes?

[mercuray]

I have been out of the loop for a while.Can anybody who is au fait with Nice or Cannes,pls just pass an opinion? We always used to spend long weekends in Cannes airport.Every time now it is getting to be a problem with PPRs;Slots & communication breakdown to achieve the latter.Boss is getting tired of it.I am wondering if We should consider Nice.Any Comments? (Lear 45).Thanks.

[Green Cactus]

Nice is fine during the normal periods.
During the busy weekends (grand prix, cannes film festival) you're better of in Cannes, if you can get a slot of course.

[Pace]

Nice is fine with some good handling agents and quick out of the airport.
The one Glitch is fuel you can be held for ages waiting for fuel.

Pace

[flybypilot]

Many of the fuel issues are now sorted if you handle with Encore (Changed there name now but can't for the life of me remember what to) as they have their own bowser!

[dc9-32]

Encore is now called Landmark Aviation. A good FBO, own fuel, good comms and friendly staff. At Cannes, you will be up against PPR's and just lately, handling staff who struggle with the English language ! Catering at Cannes is also a problem as can be ATC arrival slots (reduced flow rates).

[CL300]

Cannes has issues to come in, Nice has problems with ramp space. see latest Notam.

Both are now coordinated airports; Environmental is tight in Cannes, and noise monitoring plus tracks compliance +Cohor might lead to a 7500€ fine per non-compliant flight...

Landmark , even with their own bowser would not be able to refuel on busy week end since their fuel will be held for scheduled airline by local law on ad-hoc basis.

Your boss is better off in Cannes with a LR45 than Nice, for a lot of reasons.

131.575 is manned during ops hours from a portacabin on top of the terminal.

Remember in Cannes whatever in visual approach or not , flight tracks have to be followed and clean configuration to be maintained up to Pibon.

Slot is manadatory, fines will be levied (7500 €)

have a good one

additionnal comments :

Airport Slot in Cannes: (not ppr; ppr is for accessing a restricted airport, this is not the case, if you come VFR, you can get in) There is a lot of availibility, coordination is implemented to prevent regulation (ATC slots); it is not more a burden than before, the ATC capacity is 4 arrival per hour (15 min pitch) and 6 departure per hour(10 min pitch) to a maximum of 9 movement sliding per hour. If more aircrafts are showing up (ATC delay enroute or else ---> Holding at MUS or NERAS) During the summer, people with no prior cohor authorisation are most likely to be diverted to Marseille, Avignon or Lyon ENROUTE by the UIR sector, the FPL will be killed not only when filed, but up to start up... Do you really want to have the customer in the plane , call for start to discover that you do not have an authorization ? ( same for Nice, special task force in place since yesterday)
If you operate outside your authorization time, ie FPL filed at a differrent time then the authorization ; at the end of IATA season S08, data will be crunched and 7500€ will be asked , PER flight !...

Noise monitoring campaign is on the go, DO NOT USE your reverses; MAINTAIN clean configuration to PIBON, FOLLOW the tracks even on a VISUAL approach... Money is scarce and now they have a law they can apply; remember they are going private and now they are accounted for the deviations....

[Wingletnut]

As of late we've been favouring Cannes, as previously mentioned fuel is a nightmare to get hold of in Nice and over the last few months I reckon I have spent days waiting for the stuff there.

All in all, much of a muchness I guess but they say a change is as good as a break!

[Squeegee Longtail]

...depends on where the boss is going once arrived. If he's heading for St. Tropez you can also consider Toulon Hyeres.

[Bizjets]

hi ... for St Tropez, I would have thought La Môle (LFTZ) is more convenient :) never really busy there, and it's quite a challenging (visual)approach :ok:

[CE550B]

Hmmm. Can you land there with a Lear 45? :confused:

[Bizjets]

not too sure CE550B...
FYI SIA : Service d'information aéronautique. Contrôle et réglementation de la circulation aérienne. (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr)
Have a look at the AIP charts for LFTZ, it might well answer your question...
NJE used to land with the FA50EX in the past.
sorry, hope it's not too off-topic :) have fun

[Rich Monkey]

hi ... for St Tropez, I would have thought La Môle (LFTZ) is more convenient :) never really busy there, and it's quite a challenging (visual)approach :ok:

Except you need a special rating to land there. You need to pick up an instructor rated for La Mole at (say) Cannes, then fly in, do two landings, get signed off, pay a fee - then you are valid for two years. Qaul is autovalidated for two years after your last landing.

You can certainly get into LFTZ on the likes of citations, not sure about Lear45.

[READY MESSAGE]

I spent over two hours waiting for fuel at Nice last friday. Not very helpful agents and passengers sat on the aircraft for an hour before the refueller arrived. Cannes gets my vote now, although has anyone else been to Le Castellet? As long as the weather is ok it's a good alternative, couple of BBJ and legacy operators using it.

[redsnail]

Yep, been into Le Castellet last year. Friendly and helpful. Nice FBO. NDB approach only (or visual :ok:) Marseille can leave you a bit high so keep an eye out for that.
I haven't had any problems there. (But I don't go there very often)

Need to have operated into there during the day before you can go in at night.

[Deeko01]

La Mole / LFTZ

How does that work for Public Transport for other operators, we have done the figures even with steep approach and cannot make this work on the C525/C25A.

Any clues or is it just that they are all private................ :rolleyes:

[CL300]

http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/aip/enligne/PDF_AIPparSSection/IAC/AD/2/0808_AD-2.LFTZ.pdf

GEt another aircraft ..lol...

a lot of guys are getting in private, but some JArops operators are doing it. On the Falcon 50 it was quite interesting, the 900 cannot get in though...

Visualisation d'aérodrome (http://www.aeropaca.org/Vue_terrain.php?codeOACI=LFTZ&terrain=)

Thisis why turboprops exists, it is better to appear conspious than not to appear at all... (Learjet advert for LR31A)

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I always found that filing my flightplans exactly 120hours prior to COBT worked especially when you coincidentally filed your flight plans to give you an ETA that landed within the first 6 mins of each hour as they are limited to 10 IFR mvmnts each hour

so FP time 1230 and an EET of 0134 seemed to work even on a Friday afternoon. If slots were issued they were for the enroute segment and not the airport itself.

Spent every summer weekend there in 2003, managed to have it all worked out by August just as the season ended....

Of course if the boss gives you an hours notice to go on a Friday afternoon then you are fairly screwed. We would go to Nice instead We could then position from Nice to Cannes VFR via SW in around 10 mins on a saturday morning.

We would also use Helisecurite the Heli company who would normally come up with a free txfr if you bought 10 up front.

LFTH is not without its problems, its mil and the PPR is never available in a hurry.

WRT Reverse if yo need it use it, they would never prosecute somebody for using it if it was required for safety. Says so in the Jepps so must be true :ok:

All this is a couple of years old

[geewhizdriver]

Like already stated...fuel in LFMN is a pain. We were there last week for 5 days. Was told by handler to come out a day early to fuel because of uncertainty. 125Euro taxi ride one way from Cannes to Nice, and the same girl that told me to come a day early(Sunday) for fuel now tells me...No fuel today!
After 5 hours wait and God only knows what price...Exxon showed up. While he was fueling me...3 pilots approached asking to be next, only to be told he was going to go home! Try explaining that crap to the boss! Socialism at its best and its not even August vacation time yet!

[CL300]

geewhizdriver
Socialism at its best and its not even August vacation time yet!

Nothing to do with any political inclination. Well at least on the fueller side.

A european law regulates where fuel can be stored, in Nice ( telluric area) there is no underground piping , leading to refuel with trucks. Fuel is coming from 200 Km away, and fuel trucks cannot drive with JEt A1 on week ends. As a consequence, fuel shortage can occur on specific times. But see, you had fuel, so the girl was right, had you showed up the day of departure , your boss would have loved the 5 hours on the ground.

Fueller are running in 12 hours shifts 24/7 at night there is a 3 hours coordination time frame. Everything is published, you have to read, I believed you read the Aiport specific training to get into Nice ? Insurance do not cover the operation on overtime frame; do you want to be refuelled with no insurance ? I do not think so.

125 Euro taxi from Nice to Cannes !! LoL they saw you coming, you must have had a good attitude...:cool:


G-SPOTs Lost

I always found that filing my flightplans exactly 120hours prior to COBT worked especially when you coincidentally filed your flight plans to give you an ETA that landed within the first 6 mins of each hour as they are limited to 10 IFR mvmnts each hour


It could have been a good trick last year but not anymore now with the coordination; the frame is exactly at 00, 15, 30 , 45 for arrivals and 10, 20, 30 , 40 , 50, 00 for departures to a maximum of 9 movements per hour. As a consequence you can only have a 1440 departure slot and not a 1445 ( it does not exist). Your FPL HAS TO BE FILED for your slot time on departure and EOBT+Ftime on ARRIVAL. If not , on the data analysis at the end of the year, your flights would show non-compliants, and you will go to the cash stop...

For the reverses; it is just an heads up for the coming noise regulation, France commit itself into a "green" political behaviour, and vote laws for noise deviations, the tool exists now, therefore it will be implemented in Cannes.

Same for the track monitoring and associated noise foot print, read carefuly the Jepps, watch out for a specific briefing required, with pilot license number etc, mandatory before operating in Cannes..scheduled by year end..

[Flintstone]

Geewhizzdriver.

Does that ^^^^ sum up the attitude you encountered at Nice? It's the national psyche I'm afraid, you couldn't beat it out of them if you tried. ;)

[pilotbear]

Funny all this as we use Aviapartner in Nice and rarely have any issues. parking down on PY, got fuel yesterday midday no problem, ATC even delayed our plan twice for us despite slots being issued.:ok:
Hotels booked, shuttles/taxis ordered, wash up and laundry done etc.:ok:

[mercuray]

:ok:Thankyou ALL very much for this info.Certainly have benefited from this,and I will be busy checking into all the inputs.Cheers.

[BizJetJockey]

If all else fails and it's very busy...Toulon any day! It's always quiet, fuel straight away and Signature down there are always very helpful. Mind you, your pax might not like the idea of sitting in a car to get to where ever they actually need to get to. Could always take the Helicopter across. I'd say from the pilot's point of view Toulon is perfect but just a tad too far from the likes of Cannes or Nice to make it a regular alternative.

[geewhizdriver]

Flinstone, I was based in Cannes for 8 months on a contract with a certain Canadian aircraft manufacturer. I learned the meaning of patience real quick, however I felt the operation at Cannes was always very professional. Operational limitations being what they are it still ran very smoothly there. Nice on the other hand, is a challenge to anyones sanity. If its not cabotage or crew visas as the treat of the week, then its something else to grab you.

CL300, I have definately taken the Operational course for Nice and read every available piece of info available. The fuel situation is not as predictable as the notams suggest. In theory they do operate with limitations, but add an attitute that suggests a fuel truck driver can call it quits in the middle of the afternoon with people stranded, and face no repercussions does make it challenging.
And unfortunately 125Euros is what it costs these days in a taxi between Cannes(actually Mandelieu) and Nice.

[CL300]

geewhizdriver

Good morning, I'm based there for 20 odd years... member of all the commissions, environement, Technical, economical and safety.

My taxi fare to Nice from Cannes is 70 €, +/-


The only thing I can say is that I did not see a lot of Canadian aircrafts on the tracks....:suspect:

Fuel truck driver, no problem in Nice for me, with the right attitude nor in Cannes.

Have fun anyway, it is raining today and thunderstorms...

[G-SPOTs Lost]

CL300

Have to comment:

Having the right attitude after waiting for 2 hours is difficult, last time I was there my FO had to run in front of the truck to get him to stop.

The fact that the same ride for a french speaking person is 1/2 price would only lead me to think that French Taxi Drivers are rackateering.....

Funny that everybodys attitude get "frayed" when in Nice or Cannes.

Aviapartner.............Last minute catering request was dealt with by visiting the vending machine on the first floor (Having walked past the rather nice sandwich shop) and sticking two plastic packs of sandwiches in a posh looking silver box and sellotaping it down so that we wouldn't notice until in the cruise.....The Bill €150, also had a €2500 catering bill from aviapartner - IN A BRAVO!!!!

Swissport much better but the facility is not as good.

Overall very difficult to provide good customer service at either, if the pax will pay for the heli txfr to grimaud and you have time to get the Naval PPR then toulon is a good alternative, I woud even discount a charter to toulon and contribute to the heli to get my a/c back in the air probably 90mins sooner. Also Nice approach on most occasions will let you go direct hyeres from vevar letting you miss out on the "1/2 way to Palma" 5R arrival, a composite FP can also be filed to Toulon unlike LFMD

[CL300]

G-SPOTs Lost

you arre right on most of the things, back in 1993, Canes AIrport had a 1200m runway and we were landing with the falcon 10/20, sometimes sweating a bit; authorities made the biggest mistake by creating a so-called , IFR procedure, with the only intentions to be able to fine wrongdoings., 8 years later they finally got the switch with coordination and a 7500€ fine available PER FLIGHT !!

Even if the whole story is innaceptable, the authorities would not admit that they arein the wrong, until they decide they are, therefore we ( commissions)are driving them as fast as possible to the wall, for them to change the game.

We need increased capacity, we need better operating times, we need better accessibility, we need cheaper fuel, we need service; we have none of anything. I'm spending hours in the lobby to see how the others companies are dealing with this insane maze; unfortunately, the lack of communication, the inability to speak english is leading to mis interpretation and breakdown of the chain.

FPL Y in Cannes... the rule was made to try to alleviate the peak traffic on fridays evening when 12 to 14 incoming jet were showing up from nearly all quadrants, trying to bypass the regulation LFMDA2. We are planning a long lasting development of the platform; in 2000 the airport was that close to shutdown for Jet/turboprop operations; we kept it open with trade offs; we need to climb back to an acceptable level, a level that would satisfy all parties.

The biggest issue we have is the non-compliance of the tracks and the operating procedure outlined in the Jepps, which is the clean configuration up to PIBON, and the fact that even on a visual approach, the tracks are to be followed. Yes even in the turn :hmm: For the time being the compliance rate is less than 50% ( Netjets is 90% compliant); most of the private operators do not have a part C; and the overseas pilots ( US and the likes) generally,do not have a clue about PANOps4 and other limitations.

The consequence of all this is a mere statu-quo ; which is not acceptable for the future.

Nice fuel; long story, political issues, will be discussed all through the summer and beyond; not a lot of leeway in this.

Nice catering through Avia... cannot comment I was using them when they were Air Azur, and besides Barbara and a couple of guys I do know anyone in there. We are using swissport, works ok, but Nice is a nightmare in itself; we expect a lot when the actual DGAC director will retire ( September) and when Nice Airport will go private ( This summer); until then we will have to suffer.

Toulon is a good alternative as Albenga then helo..

As an overall picture, even if there is a 'promenade des anglais' in Nice, and that 'la croisette' speaks english in summer; street people are not familiar with the english langage, and are ripping off tourists ( ie non southEastern french people) when they can.


Now it is sunny again ..LoL

[gulfstreameric]

On the fuel issue,
do it when arriving, just coordinate with your handler, we tanker fuel into Nice. and try to land with a minimum of 10k lbs, so if we have quick call out we can cover most of Europe.
The French...
Over the years I learned that , a lot of "please" and nice persistence, and not the pesky GOD attitude, will get everything done with a sometimes quick fix or slight delay. And the tipping certainly works, as everyone is working on a low pay scale, so create the incentive.

Plan your arrival when prior leaving from your departure airport. This LFMN approach from every way is a demanding one, with visual, radials and FMS waypoints combined that don't make it easy. It does get busy out there, and they do it the french way, so laeve your temper at the departure gate.
Check your nav box as many turn and twists exists, you seldomly see at other airports, typically French (?)
In all Nice has enough parking, just coordinate. Catering the same, give ample time.
You guys fly in Europe you know the drill. Time Management, Nice, Cannes is the epiphany of it, with all the good and the bad.
And if you want to save money, take the bus E1,25 or train. Much cheaper.
I will be there tonight, again, for the X time, and many more to go.
Go enjoy the girls on the beach, or boys if you so incline ...

[geewhizdriver]

I'd love to be able to fuel upon arrival. But nature of some operations negate the option, as putting return fuel to North America on, screws you when the boss wants to go to Palma!
As far as the speaking French issue goes, although they despise my Quebec french it still works, and I can see no difference in attitude towards Nationals, myself and Anglais!
While I was fueling last Sunday, before the driver called it quits for the day, 2 other locals were begging him for fuel. They had pax waiting on board, and very tight on fuel. One guy even asked me to give up fueling, so he could get enough to get out of there. Even though that would have left me without fuel to go home. How many guys are departing with absolutely min. fuel because of the situation. I'm just suggesting that no matter how well you plan and know the "tricks" it can still bite you in Nice!
But it's still great to go and watch the girls at the beach!

[1Bingo]

In a nutshell, the attitude, close in parking and service, and lack of 'Nice-ness' make Cannes a better choice unless any restrictions apply (PPL, parking, WX, etc). I've been to both several times and much prefer Cannes as they seem to be more helpful and attentive. Nice handlers seem to have an attitude that I can do without if able.

Cheers,

1 Bingo

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

Public Transport out of La Mole is a straight no on citations. I operate in there privately on the C52A. Its not too bad, but can catch the unwary out as you need to do the performance carefully.

SKP

[CL300]

C560 operated in there commercially:ok:, they found the right trick to do it... Keep on looking..:suspect:

[Bizjets]

SVW, ONG & RAQ on a regular basis....:cool:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Ultra / Encore might do it (with enough fuel to get to Le Bourget) ;)

[StressFree]

I'm in and out of Nice all the time at the moment in a 604, can someone tell me WHY is fuel such a big issue? Why can't they have adequate supplies? Two days ago only Esso was giving fuel, all the other companies had stopped, whats going on?

:confused:

[CL300]

CL300 Quote:


A european law regulates where fuel can be stored, in Nice ( telluric area) there is no underground piping , leading to refuel with trucks. Fuel is coming from 200 Km away, and fuel trucks cannot drive with JEt A1 on week ends. As a consequence, fuel shortage can occur on specific times. But see, you had fuel, so the girl was right, had you showed up the day of departure , your boss would have loved the 5 hours on the ground.

Fueller are running in 12 hours shifts 24/7 at night there is a 3 hours coordination time frame. Everything is published, you have to read, I believed you read the Aiport specific training to get into Nice ? Insurance do not cover the operation on overtime frame; do you want to be refuelled with no insurance ? I do not think so.



Copied for people too lazy to read from above.. LoL

[sohat]

Any isses taking a Global Express into Cannes. The runway is long enoug for us but am concerned about parking for two nights.

Thanks

[H.Finn]

IIRC Cannes is closed to anything with MTOW above 20 tons.

[Bizjets]

slight correction MTOW up to 22T approved...too bad, won't see any 7X there :{

[sohat]

thanks guys

[Sherlock222]

Hi,

As this seems to be an old thread has anybody got any up to date views on which is best. Looking at light jets & med jets why would you favour one over the other? Or maybe La Mole for the LJ?

Any comments would be helpful.

[galaxy flyer]

Doubt you could operate a LJ on Le Mole's short runway. Nice was a pain last week because of the strike and no one could say for certain fuel availability. In the end, fueler was waiting at block-in. Out on the planned EOBT. We overnighted at Lyon Bron--good handling, nice city, no hassles.

GF

[space-shuttle-driver]

Check fuel prices at both airports and decide according to how much you have to lift up.

[CL300]

Little up.. MTOM is now 35 tons in Cannes... GIV time ...

[dirk85]

Easy choice, the handling girls are much better in Nice.

[CL300]

Easy choice, the handling girls are much better in Nice.
This is hands down..