Wrong Sim Result?

[Tubbs]

Has anyone experienced a sim assessment for employment where they felt the outcome was wrong or unfair? Is it possible to get the applicants' identities mixed up? Would a company own up to such a cock-up?

[Megaton]

Yup.

I had a couple of sim assessments where the outcome was obviously wrong.... I was offered jobs from both of them. :E

A sim assessment is a subjective test and, as such, it is the company man who decides whether you pass or fail. I would suggest there is zero mileage in trying to get an unfavourable assessment overturned. Look back critically at your performance to see where you went wrong and then move on.

[finncapt]

At the risk of getting hammered.

Perhaps a sim assessment for a job, whilst performed flawlessly, may show up personal attitudes which the company does not like.

Ask for feedback and don't wear brown shoes with a blue suit next time.

[Artificial Horizon]

Yes, lets not forget that in the simulator assessment it is rarely the actual flying skills and outcome of the sector that is the biggest element being assessed. I know someone recently who actually felt he c*cked up right royally by messing up a hold and flying the ils so badly he ended up with a missed approach. He was offered the job as his CRM was judged to be top notch and as he wasn't rated on a 747 the fact that he had issues flying it was not a job killer. So as stated above, even if you feel the check was spotless the examiner was probably sitting there asking himself one question over and over 'would I enjoy flying with either of these candidates'. It is harsh and you may have just encountered an 'odd' examiner but I wouldn't think challanging the sim result would be a wise move.

[RAT 5]

A.H: I agree with your thoughts. When assessing candidates one has to consider their back ground and experience. 150hrs, no jet time etc. etc. One thing you like to see is a progressive accuracy in manouvers and a sense that the candiadte is trying their best and being self-critical. Smooth corrections and a sense of 'wanting to be there'.
To me those attitudes count far more than black & white accuracy and are very difficult to assess yourself.

[Schnowzer]

From recruitment sims and my own training. I often saw that the guys that thought they had done terribly usually had high standards and the capacity to recognise minor mistakes. Often the guys that thought they had aced it were overloaded and incapable of accurate self criticism.

[WofP]

Tubbs- I am curious as to why you are so certain that you should have got through and that your sim partner shouldn't have. Did you manage to get any feedback from the company- may we ask which company this is?

[CAT1 REVERSION]

LOL....

I once went for a Sim assesment with Citi-Express, thought I did a pretty good job considering my Grandmother had passed away the night before.

Didn't get the job.........

2 Years later I learned from the candidate who was after me (we met in a bar in Belfast), he got the job. Funny thing was the examiner told him a while later he had decided to put me through, but then he met a fellow Scots man who new a friend of a friend, and that was that......LOL:)

Long time ago now, but sometimes these Sim sessions aren't what they should be, an assesment!

Leave it and move on, I did, got a job the next Month and never looked back, and the Ironic thing was I then worked for the company that took over BACON and was ahead on seniority after all that:}

[Tubbs]

I didn't say my sim partner should not have got through - he did and in my opinion, rightly so. The company in question do not give out feedback so it's a case of critical self-analysis. I'm not losing any sleep over it as I'm quite happy where I am, however I would like to know where and how I can improve.

[silverhawk]

If the assessors are going to provide a type rating course for successful candidates and you already have the type rating, where is the profit in putting you forward?

It's in the training provider's interest to only recommend candidates who need the type rating course.

Unfortunately this is common practice at a well known outfit in UK.

[orangedriver]

Sometimes you run in to people, trainers and examiners, that just should not be in the position that they are in. However, this is true for all positions, in all kind of companies. Maybe you did well in the sim, maybe you are a nice guy with good CRM skills, but sometimes its just about the right, or wrong, people in the right, or wrong, place and time.

I have applied for a job once and was contacted and asked to supply more documentation to "proceed with your application". 1 week later I was contacted with "At the moment we have no suitable positions" etc etc.
It just did not add up with earlier communication so I got in touch with them asking if my CV had not been mixed up with another applicants by any chance. I got invited for an interview that same day.

[lemay]

There is no point in trying to question their decision. Asking doesn't hurt though and you won't get any answer if you don't ask. Try to be positive and self-critical and analyse, where you could have done better. That's the most productive thing you can do for yourself.

Assessments and/or sim-screenings are not necessarily fair or objective. It's the employer's right to select the right person whom they want to give the job to - and that decision is being made by human beings (who have their deficiencies, as we all know).

I've been to the NetJets assessment and sim-evaluation last year. They were very tough but reasonable and fair, I think (I passed, but I'm not working there today). One could actually question whether it really is necessary to present such a demanding English-Test who was perceived to be difficult to pass even by native Englishmen (which I am not) - but that is entirely their choice.

Going to assessments and sim-screenings should only be done when you really intend to work there, but it's actually a good exercise and the next time you'll feel much more relaxed.

Always look at the bright side of life...

[RAT 5]

You could couch your request for feedback in this way:

"Please tell me where I went wrong so that I can correct it and help imporove my chances in succeeding in my chosen profession."

If they still don't answer I would suggest you wouldn't want to work for them anyway. However, it may be that your letter is shunted into the wacky HR department who don't give two tosses about your career. If you can land it on the HOT's desk you should, hopefully, receive a more sympathetic hearing. It's such a pity that some of those in a position to make or break someone's dream do not refelct on what it was like for them and try to be more helpful.

But then the most used phrase in aviation is "life's not always fair."

[parabellum]

Silverhawk - wouldn't that depend on whether the company was looking for a commercial opportunity or an experienced pilot? Just a thought.

[Bad Robot]

A colleague of mine had the same dilemma about 7 months ago. He asked why he had failed, they said he was not assertive enough. He had an aggressive Captain in the LHS who also failed due to his lack of CRM. My colleague got another shot at it with a different Captain a month later due on going recruitment and both were offered the job which they both took.

If you don't ask you will never know.;)


BR.

[RAT 5]

"not assertive enough".

It is amazing that airlines want certain characteristics in the cockpit during line ops, but once on the ground, and wishing to discuss certain matters with Ops management, your assertiveness can be a negative. Shut up, do as your told and don't interfer is a comon response. As a result line crews have no incentive to feedback and suggest. When I read the ideal charactieristics of pilot applications on airline application forms I am astounded at what they ask for.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Just have to accept it and move on.

Few years ago I was a Training Captain for a European charter operator living and working in Europe. I wanted to come back to UK so applied to join the UK end of the operation.

Arrived for the sim / interview with a letter of recommendation from the European MD and the interview started with " So your the TC from XXX are you?"

Needless to say I did'nt get the transfer.

Joined Ryanair instead and happy as pig in sh1t.

[willby]

Hi Tubbs,
I would agree with some of the contributors who suggested you ask politely. Depending on their response or lack of you can if you wish seek a copy of any written information the company has in your file under the Freedom of Information Act. They then have something like 30 days to provide you with the information. Of course this wont endear you to this particular company so you have to decide what's in your best interests going forward.
Regards
Willby

[Centaurus]

One thing you like to see is a progressive accuracy in manouvers

How can you assess "progressive accuracy" in an ILS when you are only given one attempt? Have you tried assessing progressive accuracy in a steep turn in the 737 sim? How about plus or minus 300 feet in the first half of the steep turn and plus or minus 100 feet in the second half with a total time for a 360 degree steep turn around 40 seconds. No way in all fairness to the student can a check pilot assess his "progressive accuracy" over 40 seconds.. Gut feeling perhaps and gut feeling has no place in an assessment.

"Progressive accuracy" as a assessment parameter is a myth and impossible to measure. Certainly not in a 40 minute test for a student who has never flown a jet simulator.

Occasionally one observes a student fly a credible 40 minute simulator assessment only to find a few weeks later when on a type rating course he/she fails to live up to expectations and has to be scrubbed. Simulator initial assessments are very much an imperfect art.

[The Real Slim Shady]

They are a waste of time if you put someone in an uncomfortable situation.

If you have a a 45 yr old candidate for DEC who has worked for a couple, or more, major airlines, he / she has obviously passed a conversion course and several LPC / OPC sims.

If the candidate is a TC on a particular type you can probably assume that given some time on the new type he / she will become a TC on that type.

If you are taking a cadet, put them in a sim that is representative of their experience level and see how they perform: don't stick them in a 737 / DC- 9 / BAC 1-11 and expect them to produce the goodies. I haven't flown a non EFIS aircraft for 15 years: if you put me in an analogue sim I would find it hard work.

An interview / chat is more revealing, particularly if it is done by a pilot or couple of pilots: who do you know, who have you worked for etc

Finally, a recommendation is the best way of recruiting.

[Mach E Avelli]

I disagree that sim assessments are a waste of time, or even an imperfect form of evaluation. What do we do for a living, if not fly in crappy conditions, sometimes to unfamiliar places? What do we have to do every six months, if not face the pressures of a check ride?
Sometimes it is better to put the candidate into a sim type he/she has never seen before. With a proper briefing and a little time to prepare, it's a great way to see whether the candidate will be able to adapt to new types or situations. If it is just a 'canned' exercise over a familiar route in a familiar type, obviously the guy who is current on that type will show better than one who is not. Or, should show better.
By putting pilots in 'uncomfortable' situations at the assessment stage, it levels the playing field. The only caveat to this, is that the examiner must be able to weigh relative experience levels against performance. A 45 year old Captain should do far better at all the management stuff and bad weather circling etc than a kid straight out of flying school. But the kid out of flying school should master steep turns and basic tracking etc very quickly and display orientation throughout the exercise.
The face-to-face interview is very important, but a pilot who talks the talk but can't walk the walk, is as useless as the proverbial tits on a bull.

[The Real Slim Shady]

So Virgin have it wrong?

First time I flew a 737 sim I was warned about the power / pitch couple: I was doing the core course. The 737 guys made a huge song and dance about it: turned out it wasn't really that bad. The briefing was over the top.

If I put you, Mach E, in a type you aren't familiar with, but I am, I can squeeze you, hurt you and humiliate you. Easy Peasy.

What does that prove?

The compromise is to let someone show you what they can do on their current type, or on a similar type, then put them in a different environment and see how they react. Airlines dont do that tho: they ask you to build trains from Lego collections or write memos to make believe pilot groups.

I've watched guys waiting on their sm trip. memorising power settings, fretting over the approach they have to fly, how to brief it etc for what?

Do I want to hire someone who briefs a great approach? Or someone who just gets on and nails the dials?

[Mach E Avelli]

An instructor with ethics won't set out to humiliate anyone. Squeeze and pressure at selection time is a fair cop, as long as it is applied according to the level of the candidate. If I apply for a DEC, I am saying in effect to the would-be employer 'hey, I already have Captain skills, just maybe not in your aeroplane type. Try me, apply a bit of heat - I want to prove to you that I can cope and meet a reasonable Captain standard.'
Now, if the sim guys are assholes and go way over the top, I will fail for sure. Or decide for myself that I don't really need the misery of having to work under that kind of check-to-fail culture.
If I apply to be an entry level F/O. I expect that the sim guy will look at whether I have assimilated the basics according to the hours I clain to have, and whether their training programme can provide in a reasonable time and at a reasonable cost, what they expect out of their RHS pilots.
There is no place in aviation for smart-ass instructors who expect perfection from the first hour in the simulator just because they have had years of practice at it and thereby have an advantage over the average pilot. Or who seek to use simulators to load pilots to breaking point. Or who can find fault just for the sake of it.

[silverhawk]

Best interview ever


Tell me a joke------ lets me know if I will be able to spend hours on end in your company and vice versa

Tell me what is your most embarressing moment in aviation------ tells me about your level of competance/incompetance and also your level of integrity

Then get in the sim and show me some basic hand flying, 2 eng take off, simple SID, level off, 30 degree bank turns at set speed and level. Now manage the Autopilot for a 2 eng ILS to land

You already have the licence and you've just proved your personality. Anything else we want you to possess, our training department will help to achieve.

[45989]

Slim XXX must have been off the radar seeing where you're now. Happy as the proverbial............In Mullingar there are lots of pigs!!!!

[Northern Highflyer]

Silverhawk

I think that's a great idea for an interview / sim check. Those sort of questions would bring out the real person mfar more than the "tell me how you deal with..... / what do you see as the qualities of....." type of questions. Not being a good salesman I am never convinced my answers sound interesting enough or if they are hitting the nail on the head which makes me more cautious and reserved than I normally am, probably giving the wrong impression to the panel. I sometimes have to think long and hard to come up with even half suitable examples from my own experiences. Been trying to get a foot in at your company in the past too. Hope you are on the panel if I ever get the lucky break. :E

[Jox]

Last one I had .......... a long time ago, during the brief I asked the questions of how the assessor would like me to perform. He immediately threw it back at me at asking me to quantify my question, I gave him three scenarios and explained how I would propose to deal with all three from the hyper critical, never pleased, indulgent tyrant down to the effective, relaxed, willing Captain who embraced CRM and wanted the best from his F/O in order that the team perform most effectively.

He gave me a heads up as to his style and I worked the numbers accordingly. With little experience and a high degree of nerves something must have made an impact because I was given a break and employed something for which some 20 years later and still with the same company, I was very grateful.

The individual has since become a great friend and mentor, something for which I hope I have been able to repay by my attitude and demeanour to new F/O's over recent years.

There are very few I have concerns over and I always remember when I was young and those who helped me, coached me and made me who I am today.

Experience is a great teacher, do what you can, when you can but if it is not what they want then learn, move forward and try again. We have all been there and as long as the individual applies the same standard to all of the candidates then the process is fair.

Perseverance: to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of adverse influences, opposition or discouragement.

Sound familiar? Overcome, adapt and achieve and eventually you will succeed that’s my two pence worth.

[Pelican]

Well, if I had to tell a joke as part of the interview that would do it for me... can't tell jokes to save my life!