Too Young For The Airlines?

[povopilot]

With all the talk on these forums about the Qlink and Rex cadetships, it has me thinking about how everyone feels about being a passenger on a dash/saab with an 18 year old at the controls?. I know they are put through extensive training and have the required hours but something does not sit right with me that someone so young can have 50+ people's lives in their hands should the bloke in the left seat become immobilised.

Everything that is being done to P-platers to prevent them making immature mistakes and killing people makes me think that it is known that people at that age cannot make certain decisions properly and do not think things through before they act. I am curious to find out other peoples thoughts on this matter.

I am stocking up on flares now to prevent being shot down.

povo.

[Jabawocky]

There are 40 year olds more dangerous than some 23 year olds....... but one pays a much lower insurance premium. :ugh:

Who says you willbe no good?

Training and a good training Captain beside you should go somewhere near keeping the punters happy!

If I were to consider applying, they might think I was too old to learn:{

J

[Bang Bus]

POVO,
while I understand your point, consider that there is 2 people at the controls of an aircraft like the ones you mention not 1 18 year old, maybe if P Plate drivers were trained to the same standard and professionalism as airline pilots the road would reflect it.

The situation may not be ideal but it is what we are facing. Hopefully the skippers working with these youngsters can pass on the "right stuff"

Would it make you feel any better if he was 45 with no experience???

[apache]

I don't thin k it is the age that people are worried about... it is the experience level. I have spoken to a few friends who say that they have, effectively, banned their families, and seriously discouraged their friends from flying on certain regional airlines because they are worried that a "green" captain will be flying with a cadet... and the TOTAL experience in the cockpit may be less than 2000 hrs, with a TOTAL of 6-7 months flying these type of aircraft!

[obie2]

Last time I looked you had to be 19 to hold a CPL!

[Ricky Bobby]

Have another look.

[morno]

I gained my CPL when I was 18, and that was in 2003. First job a few months after that. I don't think I ever put my passengers lives at risk simply because I was only a youngen. And I was PIC.

Yes there are some stupid 18-21 year olds out there, but I've found most of the 18-21 year olds I've come across, and hold a pilot licence, are fairly level headed people who hold just as much credibility and maturity as those who are 25+ years old.

On the other hand, I've met some awfully stupid pilots who would fit into the 30+ age group.

morno

[PyroTek]

I think what I'll be doing (if it does rest your mind) is i'll try and get my CPL when I'm 19 and try and get into airlines before 25:ok:

Charter Charter Charter!

But generally, those who are youngins at the controls would still have experience, and also CAN land a plane. (You would hope).
Not sure about the ex-cadets though.
Who knows, with the health and mobility of a young one at controls, you may even be in safer hands?

[Jabawocky]

Pyro...... wait till Forkie reads that!!!!:D

Flying requires a combination or brains skill & dexterity, all three things I could do with more of!:uhoh:

J

[VH-XXX]

It can't happen because the mnimum age for an ATPL is 21 !

Don't forget people that you need an ATPL up the front of an airliner!

You won't see an 18 year old at the controls of a QF or Rex aircraft any time soon!

It is my belief that time spent until you're in your early 20's should be gaining life experience in a charter or flying school capacity rather than sitting in the right seat of a small airliner because mummy and daddy paid for your Qantas cadetship!

[bullamakanka]

I agree with apache's post. Its more of an experience issue than an age issue.

I dont think the avearge punter would be happy knowing that the guy in the right hand seat has 200hrs, while a few yrs ago they needed in the vicinty of 5000hrs for the same job. I am surprised the media has not run with it yet.

The training that a Qlink cadet gets is good. He/she still passes the same check to line a normal direct entry FO does. At the end of the day though they are low on experience. This is fine in 99% of situations, but when the s**t hits the fan, they may not have the experience to fall back on.

I am not cadet bashing or saying it is not what the airlines need to do at this point. Nor am I saying they are not safe, maybe you could say that there is now a higher exposure to risk with less experiene up the front?

Bulla

[morno]

VH-XXX,
An ATPL is not required if you're only the F/O. So it is possible to have an 18 year old sitting in that cockpit.

morno

[povopilot]

You all have valid points but on a personal level i think that an 18 year old that is fresh out of school and straight into cpl then airlines, perhaps is not mentally mature enough to cope with certain situations. I know that when i was 18 i thought i could do anything and was going to be the best pilot the world had ever seen by the time i was 21. I'm 21 now and happily accept that i'm going to be kicking sh*t in GA for along time, maybe i'm just jealous. How many 18 year olds do you see driving buses/trains/cruise ships etc?. I dont know the answer but i presume not many, and surely flying an engine out approach in imc with an incapacitated captain is more of a challenge than steering a ferry around the bay?

keep the replies coming, i'm very interested to hear everyones answers.

povo

[Cap'n Arrr]

Povo, I'd hazard a guess that anyone, regardless of age, who consistently makes immature mistakes would be shown the door fairly quickly. I think apache's point is valid though... The captain should be experienced in the aircraft, and if the FO is a low timer, then the captain should probably be more experienced.

Having said all that, I'm just an instructor, so very little idea on the whole airline thing. But if the UK can do it in 737s with fresh CPLs, then I think we can handle 600 hours guys in the right seat of a saab:ok:

[WilliamOK]

It may happen to be that it is possible for an 18 year old to be at the controls of a RPT aircraft, though I think it is highly improbable that any operator, much less Qantaslink or REX, would actually hiresomeone of this age.

They are not that desperate for pilots. I have been on a few flights recently, and I did not notice any pilots, of any bar on thier epaulette, under the aged of say, 25.

Not sure where this 18 year old business has come from. I don't think there is that much of a shortage of pilots that there would be people of this age flying RPT.

I don't think any in the age group of 18-25 has the ability to Captain any multi crew aircraft, and even adavanced twins, unless some hours have been built up in singles/advanced singles.

Though I do think there is the ability to fly smaller single engine aircraft. You can't gain experience, unless you can actually fly, so stopping them from all work as a pilot seems pretty dumb to me, as some people seem to be suggesting here.

[povopilot]

William, I have heard from people that some at Qlink can't even drive to the airport without mum sitting next to them.

[WilliamOK]

Well that sounds like solid evidence to me. :hmm:


Not having a dig at you or anything I just find it a little fanciful...

...Considering I have had alot of waiting-for-airline-gig flight instructors over this age, around the 24-30 region, who have not had a look in at the airlines.

[VH-XXX]

There are a number of 18 yr olds in the current QF link intake.

Whilst there will be some 18yr olds in the cockpit I don't think passengers will be upset if there's a 21yr old net to them :)

[Taildragger67]

i think that an 18 year old that is fresh out of school and straight into cpl then airlines, perhaps is not mentally mature enough to cope with certain situations.

Mate you may be right but that hasn't stopped governments through the ages from chucking kids into the breach in any number of conflicts - both in the trenches and in the air (and at sea, for that matter).

Many of them showed themselves very capable of making very good decisions in the heat of battle, upon which many lives depended.

But it is true that the more experience you have, the greater the number of situations you've come across which you should be able to apply to what nature throws at you in the future. That said, I know a few 40+ year olds who don't learn from any experience... :ugh:

[VH-XXX]

When I was 18 I couldn't spell Pilot and now I is one.

[PLovett]

PPRuNers, at the end of the day it will be the quality of the training and the insurance companies who determine the experience gradient in the cockpit.

If one cares to cast their minds back to the last piece of world nastiness, otherwise know as World War 2, there were some very young men flying what was then some very advanced equipment with total hours far less than what our airlines are demanding. Many survived due to their skills.:ok:

That some pilots are finding the transition from GA to RPT difficult I don't doubt. The general level of training today is, I believe, much less than it used to be and pilots are spending less time in GA which is where the shortcomings of training were sorted out. In addition many pilots are able to get into an airline without extensive experience of flying the larger and more complex twins which refined many a young pilots skill.

However, the check and training system within the airlines should be allowing for this and ensuring that the essential skills are brought up to scratch before letting the youngsters loose on the great unwashed hordes.

[KRUSTY 34]

PLovett, well said except for this...

"However, the check and training system within the airlines should be allowing for this and ensuring that the essential skills are brought up to scratch before letting the youngsters loose on the great unwashed hordes."

The Check and training system at REX makes no allowance. It is still structured around the 2000 + total 1000 multi pilot with ATPL. I think you will find that any sort of changes in this area would require extensive, and expensive CASA supported redesign. It is therefore a real credit to the low timers that make it through.

The fail rate though continues to climb. Not only is the raw material becoming increasingly scarse, but the refining process is becoming much, much more difficult!

[Jabawocky]

PLovett

Quite correct.....some were sent off with less training than an RAA ticket:eek:

J:ok:

[PLovett]

Thank you KRUSTY.:ok:

Yes, I admit I was speaking from a position of hope rather than knowledge when it came to the Check and Training part of my post. Perhaps I should have emphasised the should in my post.:cool:

What you have highlighted is a worry and I am surprised that REX hasn't looked at this aspect, after all they are the ones screaming about a lack of pilots. Are they thinking that their academy will in future supply sufficient numbers? If so I think I have news for them!:=

[Icarus53]

because they are worried that a "green" captain will be flying with a cadet...

For the sake of offering a contrary opinion, and assuming the C&T organisation is ensuring that both pilots can at least fly the thing, I would suggest that there is a greater degree of risk in having said "18 yo" on the flight deck with a Capt of 20-30 years' experience.:ooh:

Depending on the Capt in question, it is very easy for a junior pilot to be brow-beaten or intimidated - refer to any number of significant aviation disasters for proof. If the FO feels that they shouldn't speak up when the old,bold Capt starts making mistakes, you're down to single pilot ops and the holes in the cheese start lining up. A "green" Capt worth his/her salt, however, is more likely to get maximum work rate out of his/her new FO.

I think the point others have made here boils down to this: it's not experience that's invaluable, it's how the individual allows their experience to shape their actions. I'd much rather fly with a 300 hour pilot who's learned from every minute than someone who's spent the last 20,000 hours saying "She'll be right mate."

Time for bed - just in case I have to get close to the sun tomorrow ...

Icarus