Dan Air 1008

[bridxb]

Hi everyone.
I've posted here in order to get some details regarding the loss of G-BDAN 727-46 at TFN 25/04/80.
I am an independent documentary maker and despite their having been 5 series of the excellent Air Crash Investigations on Nat Geo channel, they have not covered this in depth, despite it being the single greatest loss of life involving a UK airliner. I have read the AAIB and CVR transcripts and am familiar with the accident, although CRM and taking the aircraft into high terrain was only one aspect of this. I believe ATC certainly contributed in respect of an unrealistic holding pattern and mis communication. I have searched just about everywhere for more finite details but there isn''t much around except that the Captain was known as Arthur "Red" Whelan. I am a great believer in getting facts historically correct. If anyone could point me in a direction where I might obtain more information from relatives or Dan Air staff, it would be greatly appreciated as there is little or no leads for Dan Air around :ugh:.
Many thanks

[BOAC]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/safety-crm-qa/286935-dan-air-tenerife.html

[bridxb]

Thanks for your reply,
In case you're interested I am doing this out of respect for the victims and relatives in this case as it has been largely forgotten. I am also intending to visit the crash site and try to obtain info from the Guardia Civil and if I can, people from Manchester who remembered the crash. I have googled this over and over. So for now, I shall just treat your remark with the contempt it so richly deserves.

[RoyHudd]

Who says the victims/relatives wish for all this unpleasant past history to be trawled over again? Have you asked anyone? Ever heard the phrase "Let sleping dogs lie?". Respect my foot.

Or are you intending to make a profit from producing and marketing this documentary?

In any event, I doubt if you will locate any USEFUL supplementary information.

[Captain Sensible]

To be honest, I don't think you'll get very far with this. It was a classic failure in CRM, ( not called as such in those days), with appalling ATC as a contributory factor. I believe the CAA may have been close to shutting Dan Air down, but the company got their act together, new Ops Manager, new Ops Manual, psychometric testing for recruits etc., etc. The lessons were learnt, and are still being learnt; the last thing people involved will want is to rake over the past; there'll be no percentage in it, that's my opinion.

[TSR2]

The Open University did a programme featuring this tragic accident round about 1984. If my memory is correct, the focus of the programme was closed loop feed-back.

[cfwake]

I have to say that I feel this guy is being victimised when all he's said is that he would like to make a documentary about a fairly significant historical event for its field. Perhaps the fruits of his work should be judged on their merit, irrelevant of their intention, which may not even (and some people may find it unbelievable) be any more sinister than documenting the accident for posterity and trying to analyse what went wrong.

As a perfect example, indeed, I have never studied this accident in depth and only have a basic idea of what went on - perhaps the audience I refer to is far smaller than the intended, but when we start out in our careers (and I really am just starting out in mine, with an IR during the next fortnight) can they in fact foster a better understanding of the job, the importance of CRM and all of those good, multi crewish sort of ideas that are pushed so enthusiastically by the aviation world today? Certainly my course have watched most of the Air Accident Investigations, both as part of the course and out of sheer interest, and while the more expericenced of you out there may ridicule this, such programs are the first taster of similar events for many of us and DO give us good, and occasionally stark idea, of what can go wrong when things aren't done right the first time, an idea that is pretty vital to portray in the earliest stages of training.

I am constantly saddened to find that the industry into which I have chosen to enter seems to be populated by such a percentage of irrationally prejudiced, untrusting individuals, especially those who hypocritically cry words such as 'respect' when their chosen screen name is that of someone who was killed in a household accident and whose family was doubtlessly devastated by such a loss no less than those whose family were killed in an air accident.

I have to agree with Midland 331, this forum has the increasing feel of being inhabited solely by those who have nothing helpful to say yet who are far too willing to say it. If you don't feel that such a programme would be beneficial, perhaps there are more mature ways of saying it than two of the posts that accompany this thread (one which I notice has now been removed), especially when those who inhabit it are expected to be capable of more than slinging insults in order to put their argument across in their day to day career.

[Dream Buster]

Bridxb,

Whilst completely understanding accidents from decades ago will always contribute to present day flight safety.

Might you not be better off covering a real, current serious issue in your next TV documentary such as the contamination of air breathed by aircrew and passengers for the past forty years, which is known to cause serious long term ill health in many and will, unfortunately, be around for a few more years yet?

BBC Panorama scratched the surface of the subject in April 2008; it is still available in the UK.
BBC News Player - Something in the Air (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7360000/newsid_7369800/7369837.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1) :ugh:

And a recent documentary 'Welcome aboard toxic airlines' which imight be a tad too honest for family TV viewing - spilt the beans.
Welcome Aboard Toxic Airlines - homepage (http://www.welcomeaboardtoxicairlines.com/) :mad:

There is still much to say about this particular on going scandal for a global TV audience eager to know the truth of their mysterious ill health and to finally know whether there is 'Something in the air?'

David Learmount of Flight International's blog certainly thinks it should be pursued, urgently.

Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/) :D

Just a thought. I did try and PM you - but it wouldn't work....Promise.

DB :E

[bridxb]

Thank you cfwake, a rational response.
Jesus, anyone would think I am a hack from the Sun trying to dig up titbits on sworded vicars etc.
Just to let you know I am not one of those "film makers" who shows a 747 SP taking off (you know the stubby ones SAA used to use for freight/passenger shipments in the 80's) and then show a L-1011 landing at some unrelated airport. I do my research and visiting sites like this is part of it. Clearly your response has answered a few of my questions.
I make my own self funded programmes and spend a lot of time roping in investors so as I can sell the programme to a network, it's called running a business. It would seem that others on this site think that profiteering of an historical event is damnation, Although I guess buying your end of season DVD of your football/any sport team is acceptable.
I do this because I love flying and I like to report history factually without any unneccesary accountability, but what the heck, guess I'll just let you go back to watching Big Brother.

[bridxb]

Thank you, Yes, I would be happy to cover this.
I am aware of the health aspects of air travel and it would be ground breaking. It's kind of one of those things that everyones knows but seems to be accepted. The question is would people be willing to state for the record, their concerns.
Judging by this forum, brick walls are a constant.

[TSR2]

The programme I refer to was initially transmitted in 1986.

It is an Open University programme called 'A Question of Control' featuring the 1980 Dan Air accident in Tenerife.

The programme, narrated by Jeremy Paxman, reconstructs events from the aircraft approaching the island to final impact with in-depth analysis of communications between the pilots and Los Rodeos ATC.

[bridxb]

Thanks, I will be sure to check it.

[BOAC]

I assume you saw the price for the video through my link? Not cheap!

[Sven Sixtoo]

Is it just me, or are half the posts on this thread missing?

[Duck Rogers]

They are missing. Inflammatory/offtopic posts were deleted which unfortunately meant some replies had to go too.

[Right Way Up]

I believe the CAA may have been close to shutting Dan Air down, but the company got their act together,

Sorry Sensible but can you give some kind of evidence to back that up?

[philbky]

No mention of that in Dan Air's official history or the AAIB's comments on the Spanish investigation.

[411A]

I do believe that the thinking at Dan-Air (at the time) was called into question when they requested permission to shut one engine down in cruise with their Comet 4's a few years previously, from the CAA.

Bad idea...and seen for what it was...poor thinking.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote

Thank you, Yes, I would be happy to cover this.
I am aware of the health aspects of air travel and it would be ground breaking. It's kind of one of those things that everyones knows but seems to be accepted. The question is would people be willing to state for the record, their concerns.
Judging by this forum, brick walls are a constant.

Reply

You have to 'Box' clever with the people on this forum, They only read what they want to read, All take & no Give.:=

Bryan Wyatt eat your heart out.:sad:

[Dream Buster]

bridxb,

I would agree that a few people know all about contaminated air; but I know from bitter experience that you would find most aircrew and passengers are desperate to know what stops them from doing their jobs / causing their serious ill health for years on end.

Especially when there are simple ways of preventing it.

Wouldn't you be desperate to know what wrecked your life?

The answer is under our noses and somebody needs to tell the people.

DB :eek:

[Andy_S]

Jesus, anyone would think I am a hack from the Sun trying to dig up titbits on sworded vicars etc.

Can anyone explain to me what a "sworded vicar" is? Or perhaps recommend a suitable DVD.:E

[TSR2]

No, I did not get the video from your link. I actually have a video recording of the original transmission.

Incidentally, also on the same tape which may be of interest to you, is a recording of the original 1986 programme 'A Pilots Life'. This follows the working life of a long haul crew operating a BA flight from London to Sydney and features Cpt. Ted Deakon and amongst others, a young F/O Lynn Barton who as Cpt. had the distinction of landing the first aircraft at LHR T5.

Let no one say A Pilots Life is not a glamorous one. :ok:

[fiftyfour]

If the program is just for history aviation buffs - fine. It won't make any money.
If it's for the general public then forget it - it will just be scaremongering. The individuals (crew and ATC) were just doing the best they could on the day, unfortunately TFN is an airport with grotty weather and difficult terrain. Aviation has come a long way since then, and lessons learned at the time are now incorporated in civil aviaton throughout the world. A similar accident is very unlikely.
The aircraft used these days are of a design and technology that is much safer to fly. Situational awareness in the cockpit is ten times what it was in those days. The crews are better trained. The culture of safety in most airlines and of the ATC system is light years ahead of what was accepted 20-30 years ago.
I didn't know the crew, but I did work for Dan-air in the 1980s flying the B727 and now I fly Airbus for a UK airline.
So I say forget your planned documentary and try something else. Let them rest in peace.

[pacplyer]

i am sorry I have to say this:

Capt Insensible and Royhudd are way out of line. No accident is off limits to evaluation and rehashing the events which caused relevant death and destruction in our industry. If you want respect for the dead: go to church. This is PPrune and no discussion of human error is off limits. I am disgusted with the arrogance and disregard for safety that these substandard posters feel they have to force on the rest of us.

Shame on you substandard sanctimonious prudes.

Furthermore, the mindless censorship at this site is deplorable. How can I know what's going on if unqualified flight attendants censor the posts of this thread? I understand that you don't comprehend the material and feel to be safe you have to erase everything questionable; but please stop it!

pacplyer

[Day_Dreamer]

411A
What a load of hogwash.
Dan Air were only responding to a technique used by the RAF who shut down 2 engines whilst loitering on ops over the Atlantic in their Nimrods whose airframe was based on the venerable Comet and had the same engines.
It was a suggestion in response to the first fuel crisis.
I am ex Dan Air, flew with Red, Mike and Ray and proud of the airline its standards, crews and management.

No I am not willing to contribute, enough has already been said, and will continue to be said in CRM classes for years to come.
I lost many friends on that fateful day.
R.I.P.

[d&b]

Hi,

This is my first post as a probationary Ppruner and I hope I am not going to get into hot water with this reply but is this post not "Aviation History & Nostalgia"? Hence, what is the issue with looking at a piece of history that did indeed affect a lot of people and their families.
If bridxb wants to make a documentary then let him do it. I for one as an ex DA employee would be very interested in the end result if it should materialise and I am sure I would not be alone.

I say, go for it and I hope you obtain all the info you need.

D&B

[411A]

Dan Air were only responding to a technique used by the RAF who shut down 2 engines whilst loitering on ops over the Atlantic in their Nimrods whose airframe was based on the venerable Comet and had the same engines.


Yes, however the last I heard, Dan-Air didn't fly Nimrods, didn't loiter for hours at a time, and were a civvy operator, carrying civvy passengers...all whilst not being part of the RAF.
Ergo, thinking flawed at Dan-Air management level, nothing more nor less.

As regards the accident in question, there can be only one conclusion, the operating crew stuffed it up, big time.
It is the crews responsibility to know where they are, especially in an area of known questionable ATC services, at the time.

True then, true today.
There is positively no getting around this.

IF an aircarrier crew cannot operate to rather basic standards with regard to situational awareness, accidents happen, just as in this case.

Ones defending the concerned Dan-Air operating crew might well feel sadness at their demise, and quite rightfully so, however, there is simply no other way to say it....the concerned crew simply were not up to the task, on that particular day.
Period.

[forget]

411A. That's amazing. You clearly know c*ck all of the facts preceding the accident. Try ATC's abysmal phraseology - the consequent concern in the cockpit - 'He's taking us into high ground isn't he.........'

[segajet]

Good old 411A, "subtle as an air raid", but he does talk some sense. The Nimrod shuts down engines at lower altitudes to enable greater loiter time. The problem with shutting down a motor in the cruise, is the cold soak and difficulty in re-lighting. I can understand why the beancounters panicked when fuel prices spiked, as the Comet burnt 4 tonnes per hour with 119 pax.,and flew like a dream on 3.
Canaries ATC were a positive hinderence in this crash, but I suppose the bottom line is that if you are flying into an island with big hills on one side and sea on the other, you need to know where the hills are located at all times. No consolation now, but I understand that if he had kept the wings level on receiving the GPWS, he would have just cleared the peak.
Hopefully with EGPWS and pop up terrain on the ND, not to mention good CRM training, this sort of crash will eventually be a thing of the past.Last millennium when I was a copilot, I used to keep a notebook of the various captains peculiarities, as SOP's were an optional extra.

[philbky]

Day-Dreamer: On a point of fact, the last time I looked all marks of Comet 4 used Avon engines, the Nimrods, up until the latest iteration, used Speys.

[JW411]

From what I remember, trying to enter the hold at 250 knots with a clean wing was not exactly the smartest thing to do either.

[411A]

Try ATC's abysmal phraseology - the consequent concern in the cockpit - 'He's taking us into high ground isn't he.........'

Concern in the cockpit.
The problem was, forget, is that the crew simply was not paying attention to exactly where they were....and further, did nothing about it, except express concern.

Not good enough, I'm afraid.
Then...or now.

[411A]

Now, lets look at shutting down jet engines in cruise.


Clearly, segajet knows the score, quite unlike some others.:ugh:

Having said this, and looking on the military side for the moment, I can recall only one type that routinely shut down jet engines in cruise (at 40,000 feet), following which, they were expected to light up just fine (thank you very much) without fail.

That military aeroplane was the ...
Consolidated/Vultee (later, Convair) B-36.

'Tis a fact.
My next door neighbor (Colonel Jim) flew one, and it performed as advertised, with surprisingly superb regularity.
Not perfect, but very good.

[forget]

I can recall only one type that routinely shut down jet engines in cruise.

And the Shackleton. :ok:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/Avro-Shackleton-5.jpg

[JW411]

And the Lockheed P2V-7 Neptune to say nothing of the Boeing KC-97L and many others.

[Day_Dreamer]

411A
Yes the crew were ultimately to blame, but the ATC was a major contributory factor, allowing an Iberia F27 priority over an aircraft already commencing an approach procedure, and telling them at short notice to enter a holding pattern not available on any ICAO chart and only known locally and published on Spanish charts.
There are always multiple factors to a crash, and we should leave this event in the past so that those who lost their lives should rest in peace.
It has no new news value, and unless you have the full facts I suggest you button up and keep uninformed comment to yourself.
You have posted many times over the years mostly with half or ill informed information. Please dont post just to illicit a response, and get your facts right before putting fingers to keyboard.
Our friends on this flight are remembered each year by their colleagues, and we will not forget them.
They are still out there flying that last sector in our hearts.
Please ALL let this sad event rest now and forever.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Furthermore, the mindless censorship at this site is deplorable. How can I know what's going on if unqualified flight attendants censor the posts of this thread? I understand that you don't comprehend the material and feel to be safe you have to erase everything questionable; but please stop it!

Well pacplyer, it seems your lack of knowledge is something which should be addressed. All the posts moderated in this thread were done by licenced pilots involved in the airline industry. You got a problem with that ??

Presumably your attempted putdown was addressed to our Moderators on the Cabin Crew Forum. Not only have they had nothing to do with this thread, but I think you will find that they are, in spite of your claim to the contrary, actually very well qualified in their vocations. One is very highly qualified in CRM aspects and teaches it to both flight deck and cabin crews at their airline. You'd probably give them plenty of good material for a class or two I suspect. ;)

Sometimes it is better to have the facts before shooting your mouth off with mistruths and then looking like an idiot to those who have knowledge of the truth.

[411A]

And the Lockheed P2V-7 Neptune to say nothing of the Boeing KC-97L and many others.

Relit at 40,000 feet?
Don't think so.
Now, I did fly Stratocruisers (close cousin of the KC-97) for a brief while and they had a hard time getting above FL210, normally.
In actual fact, the J47 jet engines on later B-36's could be (mostly) routinely restarted at 50,000 feet, to enable high speed bombing runs.
This was on the 'Featherweight' models, which had much equipment removed to attain these altitudes.
A quite unique airplane, the 'ole B-36, and it kept the Russkies at bay for quite some time.

[philbky]

If I remember rightly, and I was at a presentation on improving ATC safety in Europe attended by at least one crew member of the British Airtours 707 which was following and monitored G-BDAN, the crew of the 707 listening to the instructions to G-BDAN were equally as confused as to what the instructions really were meant to achieve and, even before the ominous silence from G-BDAN had decided to request a diversion - which they promptly demanded when it became clear G-BDAN was down.

Many CRM lessons were learnt but there was more than one crew concerned and confused by those instructions that day.

BTW was Red Whelan the 727 driver who wore a baseball cap and regularly waved to spectators at MAN?

[philbky]

411A, I take exception to your repeated reference to "Russkies" in various threads.

Perhaps you would be happy for you and your compatriots to be referred to as "Yanks" at every juncture?

[411A]

Perhaps you would be happy for you and your compatriots to be referred to as "Yanks" at every juncture?

Seems to me this happens quite regularly here, and I have absolutely no objection.:rolleyes:

[Warmtoast]

411A


In actual fact, the J47 jet engines on later B-36's could be (mostly) routinely restarted at 50,000 feet, to enable high speed bombing runs.
This was on the 'Featherweight' models, which had much equipment removed to attain these altitudes.

I thought the J47s were needed to get the B-36 off the ground in hot and high, Max AUW conditions.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/StrategicAirComand20.jpg


Although I could be wrong as the picture below shows all ten engines running at height!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/StrategicAirComand12.jpg

[Lucky Strike]

Go ahead and make your documentary bridxb.

We should be constantly reminded of the dangers in this job and of the mistakes that have been made; these mistakes will be repeated in time.

[411A]

I thought the J47s were needed to get the B-36 off the ground in hot and high, Max AUW conditions.


That, and just as important, to increase the airspeed over the target, to avoid the effects of the nuclear weapon deployed....the get away quickly, scenario.

I clearly remember these aircraft flying overhead in southern California in the mid-1950's.
Even though they were quite high (30,000 feet+) you could clearly hear the airplane...not the engines, the beat from the six 19 foot diameter propellors.
It would rattle windows, big time....no mistaking that unusual sound.

[scrivenger]

philbky check your pm's or pm me with your email

[pacplyer]

Well pacplyer, it seems your lack of knowledge is something which should be addressed. All the posts moderated in this thread were done by licenced pilots involved in the airline industry. You got a problem with that ?? ....

PPRruNe Radar,

Your most worthy Airworthiness, :}

Thanks for the response. Was a claim at the other sites. Claimed they were banned by flight attendants brought in to help with the workload. Thanks for clarifying that it’s not true. Out of curiosity, I googled "banned by pprune" and came up with 5,170 google responses. :confused:

Sorry to be inflammatory, but how can I read inflammatory “live wire” discussions if “Duck Rodgers” on post #15 keeps sanitizing them? IMHO it’s reading about the uncomfortable stories like are found in NASA’s Aviation Reporting System that greatly improve air safety. Instead of nuking them, how about rebuking them? Like you just did with me? We have no body language feedback on-line so none us knows really how he/she is being received until we read a sour response post. If we kill all the sour response posts, don't we loose objective sense of peer opinion?

PPrune is a great site. (I’m just trying to keep the conversation interesting, that’s all.) Just trying to increase your advertising traffic.

So maybe my view was not the correct one, here, after all. Hey, there’s a first time for everything! :}

I'll work on the on-line CRM! :ok:

Cheers,

pac

[BOAC]

I suspect 'bridxb' has long since lost interest in this spotters' competition, but if still around, I would say there is much value in 're-aring' the story for those newbies who didn't see it before, but I question the expense of re-doing it when you can buy the video I linked to for far less!

[DAN DARE MANCHESTER]

hi i might be able to help you, my parents had friends whos daughter and her husband wher killed on this flight, although they have both since also passed away the girl who was killed has a twin sister who lives near by me. although i was only 12 at the time of this accident i remember it very clearly as most of the dead where burried in southern cemetery in chorlton manchester, i went to chorlton high school which is near the cemetery and i will never forget the huge marque that was put up and all the coffins going down the road. i agree with you this was a devestating accident that in todays terms was and has been very much brushed under the carpet, you always get one knob head talking bull**** about digging up the past, its not about digging up the past its about respecting and remembering the victims just as we do for all cases of tragedy thats what history is all about thats why iam going to armistace sunday tomorrow or should i not bother as it will upset all the families by digging up the past ?

[J4CKO99]

In a Bizarre way, this incident got me interested in aviation, my dad worked in the "Pump" room at Greater Manchester Transport on Hyde road in Manchester, I was ten and remember him telling my mum his colleague had been killed in this accident, it has always stuck with me as it was my first experience of death.

Asked my dad about this today and the chaps name was Jack Marr, apparently another guy at the same depot died along with his wife, according to my dad a caring chap in one department advised this guy who was having marital problems to take his wife on holiday to see if they could sort out their differences, but they were booked onto the fateful flight.