Was it the same? When you were having your flight training

[AvEnthusiast]

Dear Pilots,

After reading the below topics:
BBC NEWS | Business | United Airlines sheds 950 pilots (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7470868.stm) (Brief: United Airlines sheds 950 Pilots)

http://www.pprune.org/forums/rumours-news/331187-ryanair-laying-off-600-a.html (Brief: Ryanair lays off 600 pilots)

Would you still go for your flight training? keeping in mind that being a pilot is your passion, and this the only thing you want to do in your life. Despite all this I'm still arranging with FTO for my flight training because my desire doesn't let me think of what happens next after having the licenses. But sometime it happens to have other say something.

Was the situation same by the time you were having your flight training? And did you still go for it and spend all savings on it? Or if it's a complete sillines to go for it at this time? I know there has been never an aviation job guarantee at any time, but was ever such?

[rons22]

i spoke to marketing representative in my flight school and she told it is the best time ever to start pilot training, then I spoke to a friend, ex-airline pilot and instructor and his answer was:

If flying is your passion, keep you PPL valid and you can buy cheap share in the aircraft and fly whenever you like. When you take £50k that you would need for flight training, this equates to 600-700 hours in single engine aircraft, probably 1000 hours if you get good deal.

On the other hand, if you go for flight training you will burn £50k in no time, get about 80 hours in your logbook and can join 600 Ryanair pilot above.

I believe that 600 pilot will be shed cos company needs new wannabes to work for free and buy Ryanair type-rating. Its all part of the business plan and generates good revenue.

[Shiver me timbers!]

If you're worried because of the current market then go modular and keep your job. Get your PPL, do ATPL ground school and hour build. Then re-assess the situation before committing to the expensive part. That's what I'm doing anyway :)

[Deep and fast]

I my mind the best thing would be:
1 Exams
2 Cpl
3 Instructors rating

At the moment there is a very good chance you won't get a job. If you complete your training from now and don't fly for two years then that won't look good when the upturn happens. So instruct, build hours and learn a bit about CRM and people while in the cockpit enviroment.
When things look like they are improving get the IR MCC done and you will be ahead of the pack.

Good luck

D and F:8

[potkettleblack]

If I was young and starting out again this is how I would do it.

1. Go to uni and get a degree in a relevant profession.

2. Get a decent job that has excellent earnings potential. Preferably with the ability to contract at a later date so you won't necessarily be tied into working for one company and can take extended leave.

3. Do a PPL. Take some holidays from work and do some hour building to consolidate what you have learnt.

4. Join a no capital group and get as much flying under your belt as you can. go to your preferred school for the ME, CPL and IR and sit down with one of their instructors. Get a copy of the syllabus off them for these courses. Ask them what are the main things that trip people up when they undertake the professional courses. Whilst your chipping away on your weekend flying take those points on board and hone your skills. It will save you bucket loads of cash when the time comes to do the advanced training.

5. Do an IMC rating if you fancy it to keep you flying during winter and also help a bit towards the IR.

5. Study the ATPL ground school distance learning through someone like BGS. Sign up to the online database and work hard. If you spend enough time on then database then you can't fail.

6. Now its time to spend some money. Consider your timing. How is the market going? How is your career going? Can you get time off from work? What is the weather like? Is my preferred school available to take me on the dates I am available? A lot of people don't realise that the better schools have waiting lists for courses. The crap schools don't. That should start ringing alarm bells. Head off and do the CPL, fulltime ideally.

7. How is your cash? If its okay and you can get time off work then you might keep on trucking and head into the IR. Remember once you have the IR its another rating that you will have to keep current. Otherwise back to work and earn some more money. If you really can't face work anymore then consider an instructor rating. BUT ask yourself if there any jobs available? Where are they? Whats the pay? How many hours will I get? Is it likely to get me a job in the end?

8. So if you went back to work then you need to keep your ear to the ground. How is the market doing? Do they need pilots now? If its looking rosy then get the IR out of the way. If not keep on working, keep on flying and keep on networking at your local flying club. The latter is a great source of contacts for that first job and shouldn't be overlooked.

At the end of the day its all about timing and being in the right place at the right time. Working and going modular makes a hell of a lot of sense in the current climate and at worst you will be sitting in a nice 9 to 5 job earning a wage whilst your mates are being chased by bailiffs and never did finish that last rating so are unemployable.

Good luck.

[Toujours]

I think you were extremely wise in your words. Thumbs up salute to you.:ok:

[AvEnthusiast]

Ahanh! It shows how interesting this career is. even at the toughest time people won't say to give it up.

[AvEnthusiast]

Come on ppruners. Post your analysis here, now it's big issue for wannabes, any you must help them.
American Airlines plans to cut nearly 7000 jobs - Jul. 3, 2008 (http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/03/news/companies/american_airlines/index.htm?postversion=2008070311)

Wannabes are losing morals. 7,000 experienced staff can easily fill the gap if existed in middle east, asia or africa and for sure they will migrate to these regions. So don't you think it will be a silly and inappropriate plan to go for flight training in this situation.

[XL5]

The trick, when times are bad, is to nibble away at the aviation thing (without committing yourself and thus not drowning in heavy debt) to be strategically placed at the top of the industry's fragrant dung heap should the sun once again shine. Hope that it does; be prepared should it not.

In my youth I acquired a very unhealthy and totally absorbing interest in aviation and came of age at the start of a very big recession. There followed a rude awakening when the industry (after successful 'A' levels at a somewhat less than bog standard grammar) failed to deliver upon demand. The initial enthusiasm has long gone, but the career worked out very much more than OK. Point being: timing and strategy is everything. Bide your time and use the time. Above all, don't take on unservicable debt.

[Farrell]

If you have your heart set on training to become a pilot then I would recommend that you take the modular route due to the way the industry is at the moment.

Please don't be naive enough to accept as fact that "now is the best time to start training" - that advice is coming from a flying school who wants your money!

As the market grinds to a halt, flight schools will have to start reducing prices in order to compete. If fuel remains high in price, then the reductions will have to be made in aircraft rental costs, the prices that instructors get paid, accommodation fees and whatnot.

Schools are scrambling to get people signed up now for integrated courses before the situation gets any worse, hence you being told that it's an ideal time to start.

As an experiment, I phoned a school yesterday, who shall remain nameless, only to be told, "the industry is now in the pre-boom phase", "there is a massive shortage of qualified FOs", "if you don't find a school soon, there will be no places for you should you wait until next year", "training prices are only going to increase", "time-frame to a job after training here - three months maximum" You should hang your head in shame! And in fact, the relevant aviation authorities should have a watchdog commission set up to test out the integrity of schools selling this stuff!

In the current situation, I would find a decent paying job and save yourself a financial cushion for a year.
Then, I would put that cushion away and start a budget plan and begin saving for a PPL (FAA). Call the account: PPL or Step 1 - whatever.

Go and do your PPL and do your best to stay within your budget.

Repeat above process for CPL, Multi and IR. As and when you see fit.

Your age and the industry should be your guide here.
Stay current on the forums, order Flight International and keep abreast of the industry. If you are under 25 then you have LOADS of time to play with.

Read everything you can get your hands on about flying. The FAA have all their manuals available online to download for free. Thousands of pages of pdf files on Airmanship, Aircraft Flying, Instrument Flying, Mass and Balance.....all for free!

Ride out the storm, take your time and no matter what anyone tells you.... do not put yourself in a bad financial situation to get a job flying.
It's just not worth it.

[Electricflyer]

I must say excellent advice FARRELL. Hang on these words , they may save your morale and wallet from hitting rock bottom. Its what i am going to do. However, well paid cushioning jobs to fund all this flying excitement may be getting scarcer or harder to sustain as the downtown takes hold..:bored:

[corsair]

Good advice from potkettleblack and farrell. When I started to fly you had to option of the military or the likes of BA and Aer Lingus sponsored cadetships. If you failed to get any of those you were supposed to give up and just build model aeroplanes lest you be dubbed a Walter Mitty. I certainly was!

But some of us continued our Quixotic quest to earn a living as pilots, hoping one day that the mythical pilot shortage would arrive and sweep us into the skies. Well, there never was a pilot shortage (and never will be, except in the minds of flying schools who actually worry about the persistent student pilot shortage) but somehow most of those who persisted contrived to end up flying for a living.

As it was, so it ever will be.

So if you want to be a pilot, go for it. But keep the back up but boring job. Then one day the long awaited letter of offer will arrive and you will leave your suprised colleagues toiling at their keyboards as you set off for destinations known and horizons cloudy.

As they say, 'On your deathbed, you won't regret the things you did, only what you didn't do.'

[Jumbo744]

I'm 2 month into my Integrated Commercial Pilot Course and I don't want to pay attention on what is going on financially with airlines. I just focus on my studies and I will advise once finished. Not useful to stress now. If you want to wait before beginning your training then you will never do it. Do you have the passion? yes? then go for it and work hard.

[AvEnthusiast]

Thanks for usefull posts. Infact the situation is that I'm about to start my training in Oct'08 and I already have the cash in hand, it's all savings and I do not have to take bank loan or etc. And the problem regarding Modular is that I live in a country where there is no oppurtunity for flight training, so I have to go out for every phase and then travel costs and other odds & ends and also I won't be able to keep myself current. And I think once I complete my flight training even if I don't find the job (although it will be painful) I can find a similar job as my present one. And at present if I don't support my family it won't impact that much. So really confused, But despite all this I still want to go for it because it's life long passion. But just want to be cautious not to regret bad planning.

[3Greens]

We live in worrying times. For the first time i am worried that i will lose my job by means of furlough. I work for British Airways and the situation is potentially a lot worse that Sept 11th. The company are meeting with the trade unions next week to present their financial business plan for the next year. I fully expect sweeping cuts to be made to the flying programme with nothing ruled out - including standing entire fleets down and cutting salaries and possibly massive furloughs.
I am very worried and i have 10 years seniority. There is n way i would be spunking 70k on airline training for a couple of years yet!:{

[rons22]

i dont see any problems as wannabes almost work for free these days and companies always like it cheap :uhoh:
I am off now to my Ryanair induction course and to collect some anti-depressants on the way. :rolleyes:

[AvEnthusiast]

3G,

Thanks for the concern. You still woudn't if we cut that 70K into half and you have the symbol of $ next to it not GBP?

[Farrell]

AV Enthusiast....

From reading your last post, I get the feeling that you are expecting to pay in the region of 35,000 USD for your training.
Although that is what it says on the package, you would need to be very careful about the other hidden and not-so-hidden charges.

Let's say for argument's sake, you are going to hook up with one of the schools in Florida - the 35,000 that you have in your head sounds about right for there.

That price is for a set number of hours and includes I think about three months of accommodation. You also have to factor in other stuff like food, visa charges, flights to and from the US, TSA and fingerprints, buying a car or renting one and depending where you are from, that would mean doing a driver's ed course as well.

But the main shocker for most wannabes I have met over the years is that the 35,000 USD is for the bare minimum number of flight hours needed to get the job done. If you are above average then maybe you will make it, but the majority need more time to get it done and at about 100 USD an hour or more for a bugsmasher with an instructor on board, you can see how that can start mounting up quickly.

Add into that the notoriously unstable weather in the Florida area and you could find that 3 months running on a lot longer - and then you have to start forking out for more accommodation and transport and maybe even a trip out of the US to renew your visa depending on where you are from.

You then have the exam fees and extra money for buying flight gear. Trust me, you can't do this properly using the crap that most schools hand out.
Headsets, flightbag, computers, charts, radio, bits and pieces, books, shirts etc.....all adds up.

And unless you are planning on doing all your flying in the US, you will need to convert some of it when you move home again. You may even need to pay for a whole ATPL course and exams and a new medical.

Actually, do me favour.....I have never seen a wannabe post what I am asking you to do......post a full budget plan on what you think your costs would be, and then either me or another will go through it and give you advice - then it should be a sticky.

I would love to see you become a pilot and get what you want out of life - but am also, like with most wannabes, concerned that you will jump in too fast.

Farrell

[AvEnthusiast]

Farrell,

Thanks for the concern. You are right at first I was planning to go to US, but when I found this package I changed my mind as it was more my budget suited. Actually the package (PPL, CPL/IR, ME) is presented by a Fillipino FTO for $35K including (200 hrs of flight (ICAO Requirement), ground school, pilot supplies, uniforms, Licenses cost, food & accommodation, reserve-on-account) and they had calimed no more money for extra hours. So will pay upfront and then I ought to receive the promised made.And off course I'm going to check that properly before signing the contract.

Thanks,
AvEnthusiast

[AvEnthusiast]

And now northwest cuts 2500, so it show aviation industry is in its downtrun, and now I'm completely lost and don't know what to do.

BBC NEWS | Business | Northwest cuts jobs and ups fees (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7498801.stm)

[Telstar]

Aventhusiast

The second thread you have quoted is a bit of a hysteria fest. Can I say that as someone who actually is working here at FR that no one has been laid off. Not one. Ryanair would like people to go on unpaid leave over the winter as they are cutting some seasonal capacity. I was in the simulator centre very recently and they are still conducting interviews. That's the short factual version

Unfortunately as soon as the name of our company is mentioned in any topic on PPRuNe mass hysteria breaks out, usually having no basis in things as frivolous as facts ! :ugh:

Also don't forget that the US airlines were laying off a kitrillion people after 9/11 too, but FR and EZY continued expansion, rapidly in the case of FR. Although we live in an international (I F%@%in' hate that Global world) job market, and the effects of Globalization (Damn, can't escape it) are clear to see with the subprime crisis/credit crunch, don't always make the mistakes of comparing what's happening to the US airline industry to what is happening in Europe. The US industry seems to have been a basket case for a long time, some of them weren't even making money when oil was $10 a barrel! You have to ask yourself if it was really the oil price that has triggered these cuts or a more tangled web of reasons.....

Now.

Will the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ride into town if the Oil price continues to rise. Possibly, Probably! Will you get run over by a bus crossing the street tomorrow?, possibly. No one knows the answers if they were being honest. There ARE some very dark clouds on the horizon right now in this industry, the world may change forever. Or it may not. It may be a cycle, and a very serious one, just like the 2-3 years after 9/11 were.

I do know as someone who started their training not so long after 9/11, when I was being told the industry was irreparably damaged, and I could never possibly hope to get a job ever again, that by the time I was finished I found myself in a market as awash with employment as one could ever hope to find given the supply and demand economics of the fATPL job market.

To quote Harry: The question is, do you feel lucky? Well do ya!?, Punk!

On a final note: This is an especialy dangerous time to burden yourself with debt, and never, ever, pay up front for training. It's spectacularly unpretty when it goes wrong

[AvEnthusiast]

Telstar,

That's the problem, I'm not lucky.

[Telstar]

Not true: You make your own luck, your own breaks, and you put yourself in the right place at the right time

[JB007]

Hi guys,

I started my full time ATPL writtens at an amazing school at Baginton International (ATA) in October 2000 in a very positive pilot job market place. I was on unpaid leave from a good job within the airline industry. I had all 14 subjects complete by August 2001. By the 10th September 2001 I was completely screwed!http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-009.gif

I went back to work, watched the industry improve, secured my exams by completing my CPL, went back to work, watched some more, took 12 months leave entitlement all together and completed my IR...by March 2004 I had a blue book in my sticky mit with an Instrument Rating!

By November 2004 I had employment secured with the best turbo-prop job in the UK...wonderful memories...now I get paid to sit on a beach or like last week, go to Universal Studioshttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/starwars/star-wars-smiley-008.gif by flying a 185 tonne jet!

It's all very possible, just not right now! Go modular, DO NOT GIVE any large school a large sum of cash. A 'chunk' of the ATPL mountain at a time, go back to work, re-assess and re-plan as you go if necessary. It's bloody hard work, made harder by these circumstances of living around ATPL training, I sweated blood, lived on digestive biscuits and on occasions thought it surly isn't worth all this sh*t! But, and i'll add the word 'personally' due to what other folk on here write, I think it's awesome.

Put yourself in a position to gain when the good times return, and they will.
Focus on the positve - search for post's by G-SXTY, he's a positve type chap that (I think!) will agree with what i've written.

Anyone still awake?! Sorry...long post I know...http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/schlafen/sleeping-smiley-009.gif

Cheers,
JB

[cirruscrystal]

Potkettleblack - Entirely correct in my opinion and you would do very well to follow those tips closely. HALT the atpl course if i were you and follow those steps he has written, roughly and it will set you up verywell whilst fullfiling your passion for flying which we all share.

Private flying will be just as challenging and rewarding for you and you are in control of the flying, rather than being held to ransom by flight schools, regulators and living expenses.

Keep flying fun as that is what it should always be. In my view there will be alternative technologies in light aircraft very soon, Boeing has already flown fuel cell planes. Flying should be a low energy and economical process eventually i think and hydrogen/electricity will be the future i think but maybe on a more VLJ principle.

:ok:Good luck to you and well done for listening to everyones advice!

[inner]

One hint: Make sure that after you are qualified you keep on flying. I can not stress enough the importance of it. Join the local flying club, do some flightseeing tours, give instruction etc. I see a lot of people in my surroundings just sitting on their ass, complaining that and i quote: "nobody gives me a chance"; "i did not get 1 single invitation", "i send a bunch of application letters (just 50 of them) without any result"; "my age is against me".etc

So keep on fighting and flying after getting your license.

Good luck!

[AvEnthusiast]

Real Pilot shortage still comming! (http://www.pprune.org/forums/african-aviation/335408-real-pilot-shortage-still-comming.html)

People already have posted their comments on the same thread. But My point is, why IATA being such a reputable organization should & would print such things if have no real base? in cas really briefed by IATA.

[G SXTY]

AvEnthusiast.
You have received some excellent advice on this thread, particularly from potkettleblack, Farrell, Telstar and JB007. I would agree with everything they have said.

Medium to long term, job prospects are good. The demand for air travel is there, and will continue to grow. So is it worth chasing your dream? Yes. Should you do it now, in 2008? In a word, no. In the short term, i.e. the next 2-3 years, I believe the prospects are pretty grim. In Europe and the US, the industry is entering one of its periodic downturns. Experienced pilots will lose their jobs, never mind wannabes. Yes, China is still expanding strongly, and possibly the job market around the Pacific rim will be a bit healthier. However, just imagine the number of experienced FAA and JAA licence holders who will be looking eastwards as the jobs in Europe and the US dry up. Make no mistake, there won't be many chances for newly qualified low-hours guys for the next couple of years.

You mentioned a few posts ago that you're not lucky. That's a strange thing for an aspiring airline pilot to say, and maybe gained something in the translation? As Telstar pointed out, in this game you have to make your own luck. You'll see from my previous posts that I've been very fortunate, but I dare anyone to say that it's just fallen into my lap - I worked bloody hard for many years to be that lucky.

Several of us now have said the same thing - this is not the time to be spending huge sums on commercial flying training. We have all been down the road you're just starting off on, we've all been there, done that and got the T-shirt. And it's because we've seen the pitfalls that you're getting this advice - please listen to it. If you commit now to commercial training, there is a very good chance you'll qualify in the middle of a recession, with no realistic prospect of work for a couple of years. Even if you've financed it from savings rather than borrowing, you'll still have to maintain IR currency to have any chance of making it through airline selection - have you checked the hourly cost of renting an IFR twin? For how long will your budget cover that?

I well understand your impatience, but at 24 you are still young - you have all the time in the world. I was 29 before I had a flying lesson! I can only echo what everyone else has said. Take things slowly, do a private licence, build hours, research the industry, do the written exams, do anything but spend loads of money on commercial training! I take your point that your location makes it cheaper (in theory) to go off and do everything in one go, but what's the point if there are no jobs when you qualify? Remember, making your own luck includes having a realistic game-plan.

Top tip - there are two secrets to success in this game; contacts and timing. Right now your timing couldn't be much worse. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but that's how I - and a lot of others - see it.

[JB007]

We have all been down the road you're just starting off on, we've all been there, done that and got the T-shirt. And it's because we've seen the pitfalls that you're getting this advice - please listen to it.

Top advice guys! Some of us, on occassions, didn't see the pit coming and fell in it - AAA at HUY for example! This is what this forum is all about...

[AvEnthusiast]

Really, brilliant ideas and tips. Thanks chaps.

[AvEnthusiast]

And now XL and Alitalia are goint out. what will happen to this industry?

[Maude Charlee]

What will happen?

Same thing that always happens.

At least once every decade, the industry goes into a pretty poor state of affairs, with crews being laid off and some carriers going bust. However, the industry is also pretty resilient in the long term, and full of opportunists and entrepreneurs, so it is never long before things take an upward swing.

Whatever cycles the overall world economy swings through, the airline industry generally follows the same kind of pattern, but in a more exaggerated fashion. In other words, good times are great and bad times are pretty awful.

I was unlucky enough to be in training during 9/11, yet myself and every single one of my mates shrugged it off and just got on with it. When we graduated, things were grim and we just didn't see that it would ever get any better. But it did, and quickly too. It surprised many, many people, not least of all, us. Every single trainee pilot I know from that time who successfully gained their IR, is in airline emploment, although it took some a few years to finally get there.

If it is what you want, just ignore the present market conditions, and concentrate on a successful graduation. Worry about finding a job when you are finally in a position to do so. If there isn't one when you graduate, find a way to keep current, and just kep bashing away at it. Even in the good times, the first break is always the hardest one to get, and sheer persistence and luck are always a requirement.

If you can only look at this as a potential investment opportunity, then give it up now. There is no guarantee you will ever make a decent financial return on your investment (how much risk are you comfortable with?), and nobody with any sort of passion for the job wants to sit next to a cold fish like you all day. There's so much more to life than money, and some things just cannot be bought. :E

[FougaMagister]

Excellent post from Maude Charlee. Yes, the market conditions are pretty ugly right now, but by the time you're fully trained, things may well have changed - remember, it's a cycle! Also, if flying is the only thing you want to do, then no amount of scaremongering will change your mind. I started training in late spring 2001, finished Jan 2003; not too many jobs around then either! It took me a long time, but through sheer determination, networking and hard work (and yes, a bit of luck too) I got there; even during the "lean" years, I managed to get a few interviews/selections. Looking back, there isn't really much I would change if I had to do it all over again - not that I would want to!

All my friends from flight training days now have paid flying jobs, flying jets or turboprops, passenger or cargo or bizjets or instructing. Serves to show that those who get there are those who never give up! Remember, flight training means lots of time, effort and money, but when compared to finding your first flying job, it's the easy bit! It might sound like something out of "the Right Stuff", but if the current situation makes you wobble, then you probably don't have what it takes.

Now I'll qualify my answer: in these uncertain times, train at your own pace, i.e. go modular (you will also save money); choose an FTO according to your needs and criteria; and don't pay up front. Ever.

Cheers :cool: