Oban Airport to become Highlands and Islands hub?

[The Guvnor]

From today's Business AM

Oban airport could be Highlands and Islands hub
by Jim Gough
Published: 00:05 GMT, Aug 28, 2001

OBAN airport could become a regional hub to service the Highlands and Islands.

Argyll and Bute Council, which owns the airport, said last night that an application to run scheduled flights would be lodged with the Civil Aviation Authority.

Paul Keegan, the managing director of Total Logistics Concepts, which operates the airport, welcomed the local authority's decision. But he warned that a major investment would be needed to bring the facility up to CAA standards.

He said: "It's a positive move, but there is a long way to go. We would need an infrastructure upgrade before building up to a scheduled service.

"Ideally we would like all the island services to be run through Oban, with a link possibly to Prestwick, which is a low-cost airport.

When we took over, there was an average of 80 [aircraft] visits a year. That has increased to 1,300 last year. We had people travelling in from Brussels and Madrid on business jets."

Four years ago, Total Logistics Concepts took over responsibility for the landing strip and refuelling facilities which were used during the Second World War. The company will bid for a franchise to run an expanded service if the CAA bid succeeds.

Argyll and Bute Council has set up a committee chaired by the Oban North councillor, David Webster, to formulate the application and seek funds for upgrading from the Scottish executive through the Highland partnership programme.

Mr Webster said: "It will open up business opportunities and develop tourism as the airport is so close to island ferry links."

[davidgw]

Hope Oban does well, but isn't Inverness the Hub for the Highlands and Islands?
Glasgow also serves most of the destinations around the West and North West, they have plenty of low cost airlines too!!!
In fact Glasgow probably now has more low cost flights than Prestwick.

Oban is a very pretty place though ! :D

PG

Glasgow C404 Crash 9/99 Old PPRUNE Threads (http://pliedgath.freeservers.com/)

[NRDK]

Would never work IFR. The curved approach to avoid terrain makes the old Hong Kong around the corner seem easy. The general weather although much the same as Inverness, experiences a lot of poor viz days. However Inverness has a good approach path especially in the prevailing SW conditions, Oban has some frame cracking terrain. Still the service there is friendly.

[Kiltie]

With NRDK on this one. Oban would be a performance nightmare. Also, its remoteness from any major business community would not appeal to any regional carriers IMHO; perhaps only to tourist hoppers from GLA or EDI.

PK is a good guy & must be commended for his promotional efforts, despite his recent well-publicised brush with the CAA resulting in a "jammy" escape! :D

[HugMonster]

Gotta agree with NRDK and Kiltie - lovely area, but as for being a hub - not really feasible. The town of Oban is lovely, the local Uiske Beatha is wonderfully smooth drop, and some friends own a nice little chalet complex just outside, within reach of some of the best walking scenery I've ever seen. No way can it be called a major centre of population, though.

But North Connel has some horribly drastic cumulogranite around...

[Hot Rod]

One of my favourites: http://www.awa.dk/whisky/oban.htm

[no sig]

Remember the days of the LC Oban, Mull, Coll service, Ok it's not Europe, but the airfield did have schedules services in the past.

[Island Air]

Yes no sig, all that and more is on the cards for the future. Some folks on here do not know what they are talking about. :mad:

The future is bright, the future is Oban Airport. :D

[10W]

Be interesting to see someone make a go of it, but operationally it's always going to be limited by terrain and weather.

http://www.oban-org.co.uk/airport/obanairport2.jpg

[Captain Ratpup]

Although it initially sounded quite ridiculous, I really do hope that Oban becomes busier. It really is an amazing place to visit for a weekend trip with the potential girlfriend.

My experience with PK is limited but he's a great guy and has devoted a massive chunk of his life to the place. I wish him, and Oban, the best of luck for the future.

Oban: a great place for the budding PPL to visit (even if the final approach looks like a boomerang).

CF :cool:

[Deeko01]

Gotta agree with what has been said earlier, flew in there a few times, in fair weather fine but with the hills and trees to the north can make for interesting approaches in bad weather so can't see it being the hub but you never know, any sign of extra air services has to be good for the economy / consumer.

[HugMonster]

Island Air, I appreciate your enthusiasm. However, you may find that such enthusiasm needs to be tempered with a little realism. Unless you're operating only Islanders and Twotters, it will be difficult to make a go of scheduled services. As 10W says, the weather (apart from anything else) is problematical. Terrain will make installing an ILS difficult, and you need the business to pay for it. If you merely provide an NDB or a LLZ approach, you are unlikely for a lot of the year to get in.

You need transport links to local towns (Oban is rather more than a 5-minute stroll away).

And finally, you need to convince aircraft operators that they can make a go of such an unfriendly "hub".

Good luck! ;)

[BreakRight]

As an Obaner (now in GLA) I really hope they make a go of it, but I have got to agree with the comments here, surely its going to take more than a bit on convincing to get operators (Loganair?????) to decide its viable. Inverness simply has quite a considerable edge. The weather is honestly really not that good most of the time in winter with really bad vis and an interesting approach (IFR approach at all at the moment?). However I do know that Connel has been much busier than lately with the intervention of PK and I think that there is definetly still potential for expansion so good luck to them. Better transport link to Oban would be a must as without a car North Connel is a bit away. You would have to borrow the phone in the Glider club`s hut to phone a taxi :D And what will happen when the RAF make their annual visit and use the airfield as an exercise area. :eek: Truth be told I`ve heard this a few times in recent years in the Oban Times.

Good luck to them, it would make my day to fly a shceduled service into Connel.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: BreakRight ]

[Smoketrails]

Runway length?!

[no sig]

I been to airfields where the terrain issues etc. have been worse than North Connel. Its all possible with the right aircraft, 146/RJ and the likes might do it. Approach aids, procedures of course are issue with the hill to the north, but as with all these types of airfields the travelling public can accept the delays/cancellations if the weathers poor on the day. After all, if my history is correct, coastal command and the RAF were operating out of there during the war.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: no sig ]

[dde0apb]

If you think Oban would have a challenging instrument approach, have a look at Vagar in the Faroes which has IAPs to both runways, or Narsasuaq for that matter.

[Kiltie]

We're all aware that there are far more challenging approaches around the world than Oban. The implication is that it would be difficult to licence an instrument procedure without serious public transport performance degradation in terms of the runway length available, clearways etc. Realistically, I don't think a schedule would survive from a consumer support point of view; and even then without lengthening the runway it would be limited perhaps say to Twin Otters or Islanders. (yes, I am perfectly aware larger types such as C130s have been in without problems but they are not regulated in the environment public transport is).

[HugMonster]

Spot on, Kiltie.

An instrument approach is an essential to run commercial services, which then has to be maintained. That costs money.

Of course you could fly a 146 in there, no problem. Where are all the paying punters going to come from, though?

From the point of view of general terrain, weather, population etc, the area is not dissimilar to Eniskillen in N.Ireland where the airport (St. Angelo) used to be served by Jersey European (as it then was) by a Shed out of City of Derry (I believe) about twice a week in the tourist season. It has a small NDB but no published approach procedure. There simply is not the business to sustain a regular scheduled service.

[Davey Clark]

I knew PK in the past, and he is a real enthusiastic guy, all the best to him in his endeavours.

As for the airfield, I seem to remember seeing worse approach scenarios at places like Sondestrom/Innsbruck/Hong Kong etc. Though I do accept that there is more business activity in HK than the Mull ferry provides for Oban!! Only kidding guys. Mine's a pint in The Gathering

SuckSqueezBangBlaw!

[The Guvnor]

Oban Airport's main problem is the local council - they commissioned, at great expense, some consultant who said that the approaches are completely impossible. PK then had the Scottish Airports CAA Inspector look over the place - who came up with a completely different view.

It seems that in that particular 'rotten burgh' there are one or more Councillors who may well have close links to a particular developer who has a keen interest in the airport as a prospective site for holiday homes - and who also, coincidentally, owns an unusable site to the south that he has suggested would make an excellent airport!

Interestingly, the one of the main transportation departments of the Scottish Executive is being moved up to Oban - and they definitely need decent air links!

I think this is a case of "watch this space" - but at the same time, don't hold your breath whilst doing it!

10W, Oban's weather is very actually very similar to that of PIK. In the same way that Arran's mountains shield PIK from the worst of the westerly weather, so does Mull shield Oban. The Met Office is setting up a weather station at Oban, and TAFS will be produced shortly.

[Edited for seplilgn!]

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[Island Air]

From the views here I think some have been in aviation all of 5 minutes. Loganair operated very succesfully into Oban in the 70's and early 80's with Tri's and Bandits, not even an NDB in those days.

Huggy, do you even fly into Scotland? Many airports up here do not have an ILS, sheer luxury that is you know! Take SYY, NDB/DME only, and it is a very active Diversion airfield for Transatlantic & military heavy stuff, so it does not trouble them having no 'fancy' ILS! Indeed the 'capital' of the Highlands has only VOR/DME.

Isle of Skye? Anyone remember that NDB approach? Right angles to the blooming runway that one, all due to terrain. Again Yogi operated into there with no great dramas in the past.

Oban has a wee hill at one end, and not much in the way at the other. Weather is just not a factor for the type of aircraft which will use the new facility. Many of the smaller islands like Coll and Colonsay have no aids at all, but it is a very succesful type of operation in the northern isles.

Plans are quite advanced for Oban in anycase. The concept is to use Oban as a 'hub' for a future Inner Hebrides air service, linking the little islands through Oban to either GLA or PIK. Most likely the venerable BN2 will be the aircraft of choice, giving way to the C208 when SETP ops are eventually approved.

Subsidies are available for some parts of the operation, so it will happen!

[Island Air]

Guv, I take back what I said about you on an earlier different thread, you are the only one on here that does know whats happening in Scottish aviation. :D

[quillshaft]

Hope that more pilots use Oban, use it or lose it. There is a big hole on the west coast for fuel and the efforts of Paul Keegan have gone someway to address that. Most rotary wing pilots (HEMS, Military & SAR) flying VFR in some crappy winter weather needing a fuel stop will know what I'm talking about.

Keep up the positive waves for Oban.

[BreakRight]

Aye, good luck to Oban, however if The Guvnor is right about the politics involved then I fear that aviation issues over the airfield are the least of the problems, Oban in general suffers greatly under the endevours of its (decidedly dodgy) council. Be interesting to see how this one turns out I think I know of said developer that has his eyes on the field, and I know of the influence of said developer in the area.

Get stuck into them PK!!

[HugMonster]

IslandAir, yes, I fly into Scotland very regularly. There aren't many Scottish airports I don't know. I'm pretty familiar with the terrain, having logged quite a collection of Munros and I'm also well acquainted with the climatology. Ditto the scenery, the people, the national dress (I wear Gordon tartan) and the whisky.

I suggest that you remove your head from wherever it's been lately, remove your rose-coloured specs and examine the business opportunities available. What will Oban offer that PIK/EDI/GLA/INV don't? Who will be the customers? What would they be prepared to pay? What sort of service would they require? Is most of the business likely to use an air service rather than ferry/road/bridge?

I have to say that it doesn't sound in the least as if you are a pilot. You don't appear to have the slightest idea of the operational difficulties of offering a scheduled service in and out of somewhere like Oban.

As far as the local politics are concerned, I shall bow to the Guv's apparently intimate knowledge.

There are many very knowledgable people here. You would be well advised to listen to them rather than dismiss their experience and claim that all the objections are irrelevant.

[Kiltie]

Took the words right out of my mouth Huggie.

Island Air it's not like you to be so pompous; most out of character! I too remember when Logan ran Tri-Motors out of places like Dornoch on schedules; some of us have been around a while too!

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Kiltie ]

[no sig]

Maybe a wee bit harsh there Huggy. Oban is indeed unlikely to rival the other major airfields, but it needn't even try to. As veteran of Scottish aviation like yourself, you'll probably agree that passengers in the west have a different set of expectation from their city cousins. LC/BA's etc. operations the aifields in the Islands have long be disrupted by weather, I recall a week at Stornoway when nothing got in or out, Islanders/West Coasters take that in there stride.

My point being that Oban being somewhat isolated in terms of air services might generate traffic in todays market that it didn't years ago when LC and others tried. Further, flights needn't originate in Oban, perhaps a few Island stops on the way might make a route more viable. Given the right support from local authorites/Government, and I don't under estimate the difficulties there as the Guv highlighted for us, it might just work.

[The Guvnor]

I reckon that if you used a reasonably sized aircraft - eg 146/RJ or F27/F50 - you could get an excellent load down to PIK/GLA especially as the use of aircraft that size would enable you to offer very attractive fares... much better than a two hour drive!

[BreakRight]

If you could fly people from Connel to GLA for between 50 and 70 quid I reckon you would be on to a winner, otherwise the locals would drive, I know I don`t think anything of driving 2hours to Glasgow, but if I could get a flight for not loads more than the cost of the fuel, I would fly. As no sig mentioned its worth considering your average west highlander`s mentality here. (Also worth noting that all other froms of public transport take 3 hours to get to Glasgow)

Just a locals tuppence worth.........

[HugMonster]

Good one.

Okay - let's look at a BN2 just as an example.

Assume £100 one-way fare.

Max pax = 9

Therefore max income per sector = £900.

It probably costs around £500 per hour block time to operate a BN2, including leasing costs, maintenance, consumables and a full-time driver (no catering).

Plus landing fees - assume, say, an average of £200 an airport.

Plus handling - is £50 per turnround reasonable for an aircraft that size?

Let's be optimistic and assume you can do the trip Oban-PIK in 30 minutes block time.

Your costs are therefore £500 for the sector.

Therefore, even on the most optimistic cost estimates and a fairly high ticket price, your break-even load factor is 55%.

Add into that office costs (including ground staff), set-up costs (including getting the AOC) which you'd have amortised over, say, 5 years, plus "hidden" costs such as initial and recurrent training and testing, uniforms, blah blah blah...

Add to THAT the fact that maintenance costs are going to be high for any aircraft kept on the West Coast of Scotland (sea breezes do wonders for corrosion) and can anyone see how the sums are going to be made to work?

Change the aircraft to, say, a Twotter and you've trebled your crew costs, approximately doubled your aircraft DOCs and only doubled your carrying capacity.

[The Guvnor]

Hmmm, Huggy - but here's a thought. Rather work on the 'Ryanair' principle - that if you charge low fares, lots of people will fly.

An F50, for example, will cost around US$2,000 per hour all-in and you've got 50 pax. That's US$40 per hour at 100% loadfactor or say $70 per hour at a 60% loadfactor (allowing for rounding up).

Using your 30 minutes block time (rather more realistic in an F50!) the cost per pax is US$35 each way based on a b/e of 30 seats - that's just over £24 based on current exchange rates.

Using normal yield management formulas, you can charge probably £75 each way for a fully flexible 'business' fare going down to say £30 round trip for weekend specials - and you know that loads would be good both with visitors headed north and residents headed south for shopping, University etc in Glasgow.

It definitely works! :D :D :D

[Island Air]

Sorry Hugmonster, the BN2 is not £500 per hour to operate. I say again, the idea is to use Oban as a HUB, get the picture? Some of the plans are well under way for the Inner islands to get their air services back again. The idea of a 146 out of Oban is laughable. An old friendship might just do it. There are also plans for a Dash 7 to operate out of Skye, from experience, that would be a nice aeroplane for Oban.

[HugMonster]

IslandAir, you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. :mad:

Oban as a hub - yes. As a hub for where? Where are the spokes? What aircraft can operate competitively out of the destination airports? What makes you say a 146 is "laughable"? Why do you think an F27 would do it, whereas a Dash7 is "nice"? Put simply (just so you can understand), you don't operate an aircraft for an airport. You operate an aircraft for a route. :rolleyes:

As for £500 per hour - well, bite me. What's your figure?

You keep coming up with all sorts of nebulous claims, and don't seem prepared to substantiate any. You keep claiming that the views of most people on this thread are nonsense, without putting forward your reasons for thinking so. You appear to have none of the experience of a pilot, none of the analytical powers of a business entrepreneur, and all the skills of a politician. In short, you come across as an idiot.
:rolleyes:

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]

[The Guvnor]

Island Air - it was made very clear to me by Tom Keegan that we're talking at least one to two years at best until the CAA certifies Oban as a public transport airport. In addition, the fire equipment needs to be upgraded and even more important a management structure has to be put in place by the local council ... this doesn't exist at present!

Next, how much do you think a DHC7 is going to cost to operate?

As HugMonster said, airlines select aircraft for routes, not airports. So whilst a DHC7 or F50 might be fine for Oban - GLA/PIK it certainly wouldn't be viable for Oban - Mull or Oban - Colonsay, for example! So on those routes you have the much higher operational costs per seat that he came up with - and I'd be interested as well to see your projections for the overall hourly cost of an Islander!

Bottom line here is that Oban may well have a lot of potential - but it's going to take a lot of time, effort and money to realise it.

[Deeko01]

If it does happen maybe Scot Airways Dornier 328????

[davidgw]

How about Highland Airways DH89a ?
:D

[Kiltie]

TOM Keegan? :rolleyes:

[HugMonster]

Shurely shome mishtake - he meant Kevin, of course! :D

[The Guvnor]

Whoops! I guess I had PIK on my mind!! :D :D :D

The chap in question is of course Paul Keegan!

[Wheelon-Wheeloff.]

Did my CRM with a guy from Oban last week (sorry don't remember his name, how rude!). His intention was to run an Islander for charter operations on what seemed to be a fairly limited scale as part of a fairly long term plan(as has been stated).

He came accross as passionate about Oban as oppose to a cut and thrust businessman (not to say he can't be both!!)