Metric system in China

[ckhy]

Hi guys
I understand they use km for distances
meteres for alt, elevation and height
km per hour or meter per sec for speed and wind speed

What else do they use that is quite different from the rest of the world?

can anyone please shed some light on this matter

THanks heaps:ok:

[off_off_dim_and_off]

Basically, ICAO standard.

[KABOY]

Their own language to their own carriers, which is extremely fatiguing when operating for long periods in their airspace. (90% of the R/T)

[ckhy]

thanks guys

how about their transitional alt and layer?

QFE QNH etc?

Thanks again

[LeanRod737]

QNH is used at the majority of airports, however QFE is used at predominately military fields that have a civil presence. The TA/TL are metric conversions of feet ie 9850'/FL118 however this is subject to change depending on the location with quite a few springing to mind that are different eg ZGSZ, ZPPP.

[slapfaan]

In a nutshell : the chinese are a bunch of IDIOTS!!!!:yuk:

[AGNES]

They use metric simply because most of their military planes (over 90%) only have metric setting on the altimeters. Changing to imperial level system means changing all of the military planes.

[BuzzBox]

What else do they use that is quite different from the rest of the world?

ckhy:

Just to expand - A number of countries use metric levels, including China, Mongolia, Russia and many of the countries that make up the CIS (ie the former Soviet republics).

I believe it dates back to the WWII era (ie. pre-ICAO), when there was a push in Europe to go metric. After ICAO came along there was a push to standardise aviation units of measurement worldwide, but the US resisted the move to make everything metric and we ended up with the mish-mash of units and measures we have in aviation today, where some measurements are metric and others imperial. Most of the communist or former communist countries chose to keep the metric level system, probably because they had lots of Soviet built aircraft which were totally metric.

The US still lags the rest of the world when it comes to metric measurements in aviation. Visibility is usually reported in feet or miles, weight in pounds, altimeter settings in inches of mercury, and, until 1996, temperature in degrees fahrenheit.

[ckhy]

Thanks Buzzbox for the info

and thanks all for the input

now that clears up a bit :ok:

[Capt Chambo]

Not to forget the mandatory use of 121.5 MHz as a "chat" frequency!

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Slapfaan,

Not very nice - jy maak al jou geld hier, toon 'n bietjie respek! or move on -- simple.

AFL

[hekokimushi]

anyone got a direct translation of the chinese phrasology for ATC? would be interested to trying to understand what they are saying.

i.e. giving direct to to chinese speaking operators.

anyone tried speaking chinese to them in ATC?
other than the ne-hau and jai-jen?

[LapSap]

But what hasn't been mentioned is that to fly in their metric RVSM airspace you must fly in feet! :confused:

Neither the pilot nor the controller can look at their altimeter or radar screen and tell immediately what the cleared level of an aircraft is. Both must refer to a conversion table.
Great system. As someone said, its all because of the military. :mad:

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Was told this by an IFALPA commity member......

"In 1948 when ICAO was being formed, its initial plan of action was to standardise aviation. China was the only country that implimented these ICAO recomendations and switched from Ft to Meters and Knots to KMH."

If this is indeed true then why should they change again?

AFL

[katana]

Surely isn't it the case that the unit of a meter is too big for measuring altitude?

Think about it - 1000 feet is about right. Adequate separation, whole unit and we all understand what it means.

The meter, on the other hand, doesn't fit quite so right - 1000 is too big and 100 too small to be useable. Pilots like to keep their numbers simple, right?

Perhaps this is why for vertical measurements thousads of feet has endured, whereas horizontal distances has made greater headyway for metric - viz in meters etc.

Of course there are good mathemetical and navigational reasons why NM will always be currency.

[off_off_dim_and_off]

anyone got a direct translation of the chinese phrasology for ATC? would be interested to trying to understand what they are saying.

i.e. giving direct to to chinese speaking operators.

anyone tried speaking chinese to them in ATC?
other than the ne-hau and jai-jen?

numbers:
1 - yao (tone like out) or yi (in unambiguous cases)
2 - liang or er (in unambiguous cases)
3 - san
4 - si
5 - wu
6 - liu
7 - guai ( a dropping tone)
8 - ba
9 - jiu
0 - dong
10 - shi ( easily confused with 4 by non-native speakers so best avoid)
1000 - qian (sound like chi-en)
10000 - wan


levels normally read first 2 or 3 digits.
e.g. 8400m - gao du ba si (level 84)
12000m - gao du yao liang dong (level 120)
also can be long read: e.g. 8400m - gao du ba(8) qian(1000) si(4) (level 8 thousand 4, i.e. 8400)
12000m - gao du yi(1) wan(10000) liang(2) qian(1000) (level 12000) (yi same as yao = 1 but sound like seven so normally avoided, but in this case not ambiguous)

RT very similar to English in term of phraseology and format.
e.g. position report
bipop san(3) si(4), gao du jiu(9) liu(6), mepan wu(5) yao(1), ying da ji wu(5) guai(7) san(3) dong(0) (bipop 34, level 9600m, mepan 51, transponder 5730)
(5-letter position names read in English)
in above e.g. ying da ji = transponder

ATC reply: lei da kan dao le (radar seeing you = radar contact), jiao mepan (report mepan)

Pilot: ke yi zhi fei mepan ma? (Can we fly direct mepan?)

ATC: ke yi (approve) or zhi fei mepan (direct mepan)

ATC: hang dao fei xian (flight plan route)

Pilot: yao qiu you pian wu(5) hai li (request right deviation 5 NM)
Pilot: you tian qi, yao qiu zuo pian er shi (20) hai li (due wx, request left deviation 20 NM)

ATC: hang xiang yao(1) liang(2) dong(0) (fly heading 120)

ATC: shang gao du jiu(9) qian(1000) (climb to level 9000m)
ATC: luo si(4) qian(1000) ba(8) (des to level 4800m)

[hekokimushi]

great post o_o_d_and_o

confirm callsign:
China Eastern: Dung Fang
China Southern: Nan Fang
Air China: Kwok Hang
Singapore: Sing-jia-boh
CX: Kwok-tai??
KA: Kong-lung

any other??

[off_off_dim_and_off]

great post o_o_d_and_o

confirm callsign:
China Eastern: Dung Fang
China Southern: Nan Fang
Air China: Kwok Hang
Singapore: Sing-jia-boh
CX: Kwok-tai??
KA: Kong-lung

any other??
Almost...

China Eastern: Dong Fang
China Southern: Nan Fang
Air China: Guo Hang
Singapore: Xin - jia - po
CX: Guo-tai
KA: Gang-long

[off_off_dim_and_off]

ATC: jiao Guang Zhou yao(1) liang(2) liu(6) dian(.) wu(5) (call GuangZhou 126.5)

ATC: jiao Xiang Gang yao(1) liang(2) guai(7) dian(.) wu(5) wu(5) (call Hong Kong 127.55)

[Panama Jack]

Great post off_off_dim_and_off

I was just wondering whether ATC Comms carried out in Chinese are in Putonghua (Mandarin) or in the local lingo (like Cantonese)?

For example, you cite "12000m - gao du yao liang dong (level 120)" which I believe is Cantonese or other dialect. As far as I know, in Mandarin it should be "gao du yi er ling." If so, not all Chinese pilots will be able to understand it either.

[off_off_dim_and_off]

was just wondering whether ATC Comms carried out in Chinese are in Putonghua (Mandarin) or in the local lingo (like Cantonese)?

For example, you cite "12000m - gao du yao liang dong (level 120)" which I believe is Cantonese or other dialect. As far as I know, in Mandarin it should be "gao du yi er ling." If so, not all Chinese pilots will be able to understand it either.

They are in standard Putonghua. You are correct that 120 should be read as "gao du yi er ling", if said in ordinary conversation. In RT, yi(1) can be mixed up with qi (7) (pronounced like chi) or si(4). That's why in standard putonghua RT, one (1) is yao, seven (7) is guai. Two(2) can be said in two ways in ordinary conversation anyway, like 2 people is liang(2) ge ren(person) not er ge ren. Saying liang for 2 in RT is easier to understand.

[hekokimushi]

yi er lin is ambiguious.

numbers are pronounce diffently. and all chinese ATC are MAndarin
refer to post 16 for number pronounciations

like ICAO eng standard for radio numbers:
1 = won
2 = too
3 = tree
4 = forer
5 = fife
6 = six
7 = seven
8 = ait
9 = nine
0 = zero

we don't speak like that under normal conversations.

oodo,

any more comprehensive write up on the web about the chinese RT?
trying to learn it to get a better situational awareness around in the chinese airspace.

any other airline use chinese RT?

any MAyday? Panpan? emergency descent phrase used in Chinese RT?
also are there some waypoints only in chinese? coz some position reports i do not recognise the waypoints on the jepps charts.

cheers
h

[yyfay]

could anyone also explain the russian RT please? :)

[reynoldsno1]

In a nutshell : the chinese are a bunch of IDIOTS!!!!
though the US is the least ICAO compliant state in the world....:rolleyes:

[ckhy]

great post off_off_dim_and_off!

Thanks very much! really appreciate all your effort:ok::ok:

[atmd_cad]

oodo

Where did you learn all these mandarin stuff?! Is it easy to pick that up on the r/t? What I'm thinking is, I believe most local people here in hk do speak some English, but I really doubt if they can understand what we're talking about on the rt.

[Alan Chu]

Hello! My first post here in the forum.

I think Cathays and Dragons do not use Mandarin RT, though some pilots from Air China use English too in the mainland airspace, not sure if it's part of the internationalization of the airline or it's related to the Olympic Games..

I was at PEK few weeks ago. To me, I find that the local RT was not easy to listen at all, even I know some mandarins. For most of the time I could just be able to pick up phrases like callsigns(e.g. Guo-hang yao-dong-ba= Air China 108) and altitude.

Cheers,
Alan

[mingalababya]

Great post off_off_dim_and_off

I was just wondering whether ATC Comms carried out in Chinese are in Putonghua (Mandarin) or in the local lingo (like Cantonese)?

For example, you cite "12000m - gao du yao liang dong (level 120)" which I believe is Cantonese or other dialect. As far as I know, in Mandarin it should be "gao du yi er ling." If so, not all Chinese pilots will be able to understand it either.

It's Mandarin, but what's given above by off_off_dim_and_off are the radio telephonetic way of saying the numbers, just like in english, we say "niner" for nine and "tree" for three, "fife" for five etc. I have a whole list of aviation terms in Mandarin (not at my finger tips), which includes terms such as "cleared to land", "upwind", "crosswind", "base", "final" and so on.

It's worth noting that if you're issued with a CAAC CPL and you're not a local Chinese, then your license has a restriction stating that you must not communicate on the radio in Chinese. Having said that, these Chinese terms are worth knowing, though, for greater situational awareness.

[hekokimushi]

so the Chinese RT requires an endoresement??

so if next time the LHS ask to scream down the radio in chinese asking why did the ATC phucked us up for an apology, needs to be in english?


Air China use English too


coz there are some non-chinese expats too in Air china.

but i certainly heard singapore RTing in chinese. sure their license won't have a chinese restriction??!!?? or is there??

So are company other than chinese airline cannot use chinese?

[Dan Winterland]

There is no common Chinese language. Those Air China crews might be from a region where Putonghua isn't spoken. Or they may be ex-pats. There are quite a few ex-pats flying for Air Chia now, or they may be a wet lease. I have flown many flights for Air China!

[Alan Chu]

Dan: Oh yeah, maybe ex-pats were on the flights.. But by judging by the accents of the pilots, i think they should be chinese. Maybe the PFs were ex-pats while the PNFs were chinese, though I'm not sure. But thanks a lot for your information! I know Dragons do have wet-leased flights for Air China on the SZX - PVG - NRT route!

So are company other than chinese airline cannot use chinese?

I would like to know more about it, too! I bet they can't unless it is not traffic -related(e.g. Greetings like ni-hao or thanking like xie-xie)? Any info is appreciated! ;)

[Crossbleed]

Next time you call for pushback in PEK and hear a flurry of Putonghua immediately after, it's probably GND saying" Okay everyone, QF UA (insert as appropriate), is ready for push, who wants to go before them?"
Happens all the time.:D

[hekokimushi]

they say that on ground do they. never heard. haha.
but i think i remember hearing they offer fly direct to some putongwa when asked in putongwa. but when the english equivalent asked for a direct around the same time. Flt Plan Loot was replied.

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

SICK OF.........

1. fry pran loot every time i ask for a direct.
2. offset 1 nm lite when on ladar ...... next time they order that, i will say " negative flight plan route!!! "

[Panama Jack]

Dan Winterland wrote: There is no common Chinese language. Those Air China crews might be from a region where Putonghua isn't spoken.

I was under the impression that "Putonghua" or "ordinary language" or "Standard Mandarin" has been the "official language" of the People's Republic of China since at least the mid-1950's. I can imagine that some Hong Kongese or Macanese may have problems with Mandarin due to their relatively recent political changes, but as for the mainland, most educated Chinese citizens should have a good command of Putonghua since this has been the medium of instruction in the educational system and in the media.

[Mick16]

I hate to imagine running an abnormal/emergency checklist under these conditions, especially losing 2 engines on a 747 classic while converting altitudes in an environment where aircraft are instructed to make "orbits" instead of specific holding instructions. :ooh: