Ormond Beach Aviation - Hour Building

[VFR Transit]

Hi peeps



I am after information and advice regarding Hour Building sessions at Ormond Beach Aviation. I am soon to complete the PPL and am looking to complete a range of hours in the USA, the package i am going for will be about 75 to 100 hours in a PA28.

Can anyone who has been to OBA recently tell me what the PA28's are like, I would also like to find out were the best places to fly are in Florida.

I am looking to visit the usual Miami, everglades and NASA etc etc and would like to find the airpark for John Travolta (maybe a touch and go on his runway lol)

I have just got a copy of the rental agreement, which i will of course study with a fine tooth comb.

Any advice from all and recent students too.

I know OBA has got it's problems, and understand MR AT may not be a nice person, however I feel that doing Hour Building should not have any problems at all.

Thanks
VFR

[geordiejet]

I've never flown the pipers so cannot comment on them.

But someone has a review of them here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64278242@N00/

Best places : Fernandina Beach, St Augustine, Merritt Island and Flagler - not the most interesting place - but Hijackers Restaurant is top notch!

Try Key West - but you get back very little in terms of fuel money - the hour building only includes fillups at KOMN. Looking at a good 3.5 hour each way. So burns up the hours nicely.

JT's house is great - and well worth the visit! The 707 was in residence when I was there.

[hughesyd]

Aircaft old and tatty but well maintained. Make sure before you book that there are not too many students booked on the same aircraft or getting the hours in could be a problem. AT not that bad, a typical yorkshireman whos running a business!. Some students have had problems and he can be unreasonable in certain situations, but on the other hand, some students have deserved his barracking.

I myself have had issues with them in the past, but nothing that has stopped me going back, and i would still use them in the future. Some staff will go out of their way to help you if you show them respect and try and work with them when there are problems.

In terms of hour building, a good place to do it. you may be limited to how fly you can fly, but call them and check. John Travoltas place a nice little trip but it is a private airfield and you cant land there.

[99jolegg]

The location is great for hour building, up to the north you can fly to Flagler, St. Augustine and the other airport to the north west that I can't remember the name of - US airways do some regional flights into it.

To the south, you have some picturesque views and busier airports (Sanford) to put your skills to the test.

They have a large fleet of aircraft and those doing the hour building packages when I was there had an aircraft to themselves for the entire day.

Yes the aircraft are dated, some in better condition than others. Just make sure you keep your eye on the ball and know your emergency drills inside out.

For hour building, OBA is a good choice.

[ab33t]

You pay for what you get , did my PPL there in nov/dec 2005 . Just be carefull as ,mentioned above if there are a lot of ppl's and hour builders you may end up doing your hours at night as we had a few of those when I was there. Not that they would not get their hours it was just very busy. Another thing to be aware of is refuleing away from base and there is a restriction on distance away from base. Check this out before you go.

[XL319]

There are just places in the UK just as cheap if not cheaper!! Shop around.

Only downside here is the weather.

[civil aviation]

There are just places in the UK just as cheap if not cheaper!!

Whatever you like, or spend, some know-it-all says you could get it cheaper.
I've no idea how much OBA charge and what's included e.g. accomodation but they always seem very good value- when comparing like with like. However, I'm sure that Redneck Air Center in Hillbilly County and many other dubious operations in the US will be cheaper. However, the suggestion that places in the UK are cheaper is both proposterous and unsupported or are you referring to gliding or somewhere using stolen fuel?

[mad_jock]

There is a engineer and pilot on pprune who has a few aircraft who will give you a plane dry for a USA rate to do with what you want as long as you get it back for a 50 check.

No doudt he will PM you if you ask nicely.

AT who owns OBA is a fanny of the highest order, rule 5 should be applied. ie find out when he is holiday and go then or stay well away. There is no prob with OBA just AT when he is there.

Hours at night are not such a bad thing in FL it is 100000 times safer doing night hours in FL in a SEP than in the UK and might do you a favour for ATPL issue.

But FL is boring as hell for hour building especially if your trapped with wet rates which mean it costs an arm and a leg if outside 1.5hours flying from one of the FTO's

If you can find some school which will give you it dry at tacho hours and bumble around FL at climb out speeds paying 75% for ever hour logged thats the way forward.

[nich-av]

OBA is far from the cheapest in the U.S. for hour building, actually they might be one of the most expensive. That is surely because they have the privilege of being a JAA school.

What about hour building in Ohio?

Major cities in the area, beautiful landscapes (Great Lakes) and cooler, more stable weather during the summer.

Add lower cost, better value, available planes (20 aircraft in the fleet) and excellent service.

If interested, pm me.

[selfin]

geordiejet, this URL with photographs is a sleight of hand considering present equipment at OBA. The vast majority of these defects have been attended to, with 7 excellently maintained PA28s added to the fleet in May. There is in fact a reimbursement for fuel purchased away from base. And I can only add that AT was in my experience a gentleman, to such an extend I returned to give the company further business.

Chauffeured from the international airport to spacious and clean accommodation, not a single delay with aircraft scheduling, professional and courteous staff, experienced instructors happy to go out of their way, paperwork expeditiously handled, honest accountancy, telephone always answered, the list goes on. Plenty of other schools out there if you prefer the self-punishment approach.

[geordiejet]

geordiejet, this URL with photographs is a sleight of hand considering present equipment at OBA. The vast majority of these defects have been attended to, with 7 excellently maintained PA28s added to the fleet in May. There is in fact a reimbursement for fuel purchased away from base. And I can only add that AT was in my experience a gentleman, to such an extend I returned to give the company further business.

I've made no reference to AT whatsoever in this thread. Perhaps a new paragraph would be appropriate - if that one is not directed toward me.

There is a reimbursement for fuel - which I've mentioned - but it is WAY below what you pay for the actual fuel. I.e. - you get the equivalent COST PRICE of the fuel that OBA use (they own the bowser that you fill up from). Which is a lot less than the RETAIL price that you pay for fuel in other airports.

This is very important if you do want to venture further afield - as it adds a substantial amount on to the cost of a flight if you fill up away from home, especially now avgas is through the roof.

[VFR Transit]

Hello All

First of all, please let me say a massive thanks to all those who have taken the time to reply, please do keep them coming.

I have spoken to AT several times yesterday using their free phone number to the state (excellent idea)

From what i gather, AT is a good man and is an old school business man. A major part of his PPL(A) are young lads who think they know it all, and infact do not put in 100%.

I feel as an hour builder, this would not cause me any problems when just collecting and dropping off a PA28.

Some of the questions i asked are below:

Q. What is the distance away from the airfield allowed.
A. Anywhere in the Florida state and into georgia.

Q. What is the drawback for up loading fuel away from home airfield.
A. $3.00 per Gallon

Q. How many PA28's do you have
A. 10

Q. How many hours do i normally get in a day
A. Between 2 and 3 hours per day

Q. Can i take the aircraft away overnight.
A. Yes but there must be a minimum flying of 6 hours per 24 hours.
(MR AT advised if i book plane from 1pm to 1pm i could fly 3 hours each day)

I do have a copy of the rental agreement (17 pages) and will look over it.

I do understand that florida is boring in regards to hour builders, but at the end of the day all i want is to Build my Hours up. I know of lots of places i would like to see from the air and i think Florida is a good place to start.

If you have anymore information please do let me know, and would like to see any recent (2007 onwards) pictures

Thanks
VFR

[hughesyd]

MR AT advised if i book plane from 1pm to 1pm i could fly 3 hours each day)



Oh so AT is now letting hour builders book timeslot to suit!!!!. He must be softening in his old age!!!..........i think not!

[VFR Transit]

MR AT advised if i book plane from 1pm to 1pm i could fly 3 hours each day)



Oh so AT is now letting hour builders book timeslot to suit!!!!. He must be softening in his old age!!!..........i think not!I think your comments are rude!!!

Who are you to tell others what Mr AT is thinking and what he said, when you were not talking to him on the phone.

Adrian stated that if you advise ops that you require the aircraf tover night, they will noramlly allow this from 1pm.

VFR

[TicketyBlue]

Not long back from OBA where I flew the PA28's. The older Warriors N215SA & N44930 are well past their best. 5SA's engine cuts out if you brake hard and the strobes don't work. Having said that, they have brought in 7 Piper Cadets which are very nice, giving them 8 Cadets in total. JT's house is located at a private strip out to the NW called "Greystone" (near Ocala). I think the field another poster mentioned out to the NW is Gainesville.

[177Pilot]

The point has been made above about the condition of the aircraft and the points of interest in the Central Florida area. But, be cautious about paying too much up front. If you don't get the hours in, they will not refund all the unused flying money. They will recalculate your plackage, charging you independently for each item at full price (hours, housing, transportation, etc.) then take a 25% cancellation fee from the balance. Best bet, take it in small 10-25 hour packages. Save in the long run...

[gfunc]

I'm just wondering why you've chosen to go with OBA? I see from their website that the price is quite good and includes accomodation (unknown quality!), but from what you've said you will only realistical be able to take the aircraft for trips to airfields within a few hours radius. It might get a bit dull once you've visited every one and still have 40 odd hours left to burn.

Have you considered getting block hours from another provider where you have the aircraft to yourself for an extended period of time? This way you could string together the mother of all cross countries (e.g. to NYC and back), which would benefit your experience more than being 'tied' to Ormond beach. If you use the internet to find cheap digs (i.e. away from the biggest cities) I bet it wouldn't be too much more than the package at OBA and a great deal more fun.

Since you will already have the PPL and you aren't training toward another licence I don't think you need a special visa (M-1) for hour building, so you don't have to be tied to the JAA schools. Best to check though.

Best of luck with whatever you go for!

Cheers,

Gareth.

[A and C]

You are talking like an idiot who hs been sucked in by the "it's always better in the USA" attitude that you will find on these pages.

Before you make sweeing statments please check your facts, it will stop you looking stupid, as it happends XL319 has done his reserch very well.

He has taken the time to cost the true cost of flying in the USA and not just the headline rate that you see in the publicity and if you look around you will find that the price diference is vey small and sometimes in favour of flying on this side of the Atlantic (and that is before we get into aircraft quality issues).

[VFR Transit]

I personally don't care about the cost of Hour Building.

I have family out in the USA, so will not need to have the OBA accomodation either.

When I go out to complete my Hour Building next year, I shall be using a business trip to complete it.

So bring on the USA (even if it is expensive)

Rock on

[civil aviation]

I did not suggest it was (always) better (or worse) anywhere but siimply question the suggestion that it could be cheaper in the UK.
Instead of resorting to abuse, just post the facts:
the UK FTO's
the price of their package
the numbers of hours and
what they include/exclude

[A and C]

The last time that I did the numbers (about six months ago) the cost of a typical Florida based 50 hour packge was about £72/hour by the time all the costs are taken into account.

UK company offers a package that if wisely flown can better his by a small margin and better it by 12.5% on flights to europe. The costs will have incresed due to the oil costs but so have the prices in the USA.

The aircraft are in first class condition, something that can't be said of most of the offerings to hoursbuilders in the USA.

Unfortunatly due to the rules about advertising on pprune I can't tell you any more about the company.

[XL319]

On my calculations last year (before the price rises on both sides of the atlantic) a US based hour building package came in at £61 per hour (hobbs), on top of that you have 300-400 flight (low cost airline), possible accomodation, food whilst there and spending money then your mortgage or rent payments for your house over here, in the end there was little or no difference and in some cases actually worked out MORE EXPENSIVE!!

This year I worked out in this country you can get a C152 for approx £69-75 per hour. If you join a no equity group this can be slightly less at £55 wet per hour plus monthly charges.

In the US with the rises, you are looking at £64 (now $4.99 a gallon of 100LL) per hour (hobbs) (based 100 hours at £6397)..... in the UK you can get 100 hours at £5920 (allow for slight variations) and this is for the same aircraft.

SAVING OF - £477 (without taking into account flight charges, out of pocket expenses etc etc!)

In this country "if you shop around" you can pay by monthly invoice or even by the hour. At OBA they only except a payment upfront for the full amount and if you have to return home for whatever reason you get stung for 25% "cancellation charge"!! Don't forget to add there flying restrictions also PPL or no PPL. It's their aircraft.

Experience of the UK weather and a country over run with airspace can be valuable experience to a newly qualified pilot compared to sunny days and open airspace (generally) in the US. People just think of the weather when they go to the US without taking into account other amenities.

SHOP AROUND. Flying schools will charge you £100-160 per hour and there is more restrictions due to training commitments as to where you can fly. But based on a school near me they are charging £130 solo per hour (£13,000 for 100 hours) - abolsute lunacy!!! However they are kind enough to give discounts for payments up front of 10% :{

[XL319]

You could actually fly in this country 24 hours a day if you got the right deal!!

and you can fly where ever you want in the world (France, Ireland, Portugal all easyily done)

SHOP AROUND!!!

Maybe you just have your heart set on going to Florida....which is fair enough!

Some people and groups which I know have little or no restriction on your flying!!

[XL319]

[Quote]I personally don't care about the cost of Hour Building.

I have family out in the USA, so will not need to have the OBA accomodation either.

When I go out to complete my Hour Building next year, I shall be using a business trip to complete it.

So bring on the USA (even if it is expensive)

Rock on[Unquote]


Sounds a bit silly and foolish!

[mcgoo]

I always find it quite surprising that the anti US brigade always make the point of "don't forget if you go to the US you will have to factor in food costs!", don't these people ever eat in the UK then?, or do they get their food free over here?, you can eat like a king in the US for a lot less then over here!

Also another cost to consider with current UK fuel prices is the cost of the fuel getting to and from the airfield, its ok saying that you can get a deal for £5920 but if you are only flying an hour or two at a time and the airfield is some distance away, that saving will soon be gone, especially when you add the landing fees as well.

Theres benefits to both ways, just down to personal choice really.

VFR Transit, if you want any info or pictures, PM me

[XL319]

We could all say the Anti UK brigade blah blah blah, pointless post really mcgoo.

There was nothing anti US in my post, i've been there, merely trying to highlight the potential costs to people. Its obviously their choice at the end of the day. People automatically think US cheap = UK expensive. Not the case!!!

Its a known fact that you would always spend more if your away from home in food costs as you tend to eat out more often...then there is the tips on top (esp in the US :p)

Like i said previously SHOP AROUND!!!!!

[mcgoo]

Oh right, I added a couple of costs not previously mentioned and it's a pointless post, whereas a previous poster said regardless of the differences he actually just wants to go to the US and you call him silly and foolish. :hmm:

And that comment wasn't aimed at you XL319, it's just a point that always arises in these threads!

[OBA]

XL319 quote:

"In the UK you can get 100 hours at £5920 (allow for slight variations) and this is for the same aircraft" (Cessna 150?):

This equals £59.20/hour.

So let us work this backwards (simple maths!):

£59.20 less VAT @17.5% = £8.82 = £50.38

£50.38 less Avgas @ 20 litres/hour @ £1.60/litre = £32/hour = £18.38

£18.38 less insurance @ £3,500/year = £4.66/hour (based on 750 hour annual utilisation) = £11.72

£13.72 less engine overhaul cost @ £5,000 = £2.77/hour (based on 1,800 hour TBO) = £10.95

£10.95 less .5 litres of W100 oil/hour @ £3.00/litre = £1.50 = £9.45

£9.45 less required scheduled maintenance of 4 x 50 hour inspections @ £150 each, less 2 x 150 hour @ £400 each less 1 annual inspection @ £1,000 = £3.20/hour = £6.35

£6.35 less unscheduled maintenance (avionics, instruments, tyres, brakes, interior, paint, general wear/tear and the CAA "Star" Inspection fee, etc.) @ £5/hour = operating profit of £1.35/hour!

The annual operating profit to the operator based on 750 hours annual utilisation = £1,012.50

In this "750 hour per year" operating scenario, (and lets face it, in the UK this is only a "dream" as most "busy" clubs struggle to get 500 hours/year/aircraft), the cost of operation on this most conservative basis is £60.55.

Not a good business model for the longterm?

In addition, the above costings do not include "hangarage", "parking" or "airfield landing card" etc. This alone could conservatively cost another £500 - £1,500 per year! Makes it even worse, (or better if it is a charity!).

Therefore OBA at £63.97/hour including "VAT", accommodation for 4 weeks, (that is next to the airfield, i.e. a short walk and no car/petrol @ £1.20+/litre to get there and back everyday), airport pick up/drop off, "club" check out, free "hand holding/advice" for 4 weeks, no landing fees, etc. etc., does seem like a bit of a "deal", even when you add £+/- £300/400 for the flight.

XL319: Please tell us all where this "magic" of operating Cessna 150's is performed? Oxfam Aviation?

Regards,

Adrian Thompson
President and Head of Training
OBA

P.S. Yes, you can take the aircraft away for the night as per the above post.

P.P.S. If you do not "get the hours in" because of reasonable circumstances out of your control, (weather limits etc.), you will get a full refund of your unused account balance.

P.P.P.S. If you are actually "serious" about your flying, e.g. "you get a plane scheduled for 3 hours you fly it for +/- 2 hours and 40 minutes and don't go up to Flagler everyday, (15 minutes), chat up the "bird in the bar" for 2 hours and fly back, 15 minutes! You will never have a problem at OBA. If you are here for 100 hours/4 weeks, have an aircraft scheduled for 250 hours and fly it for 37 hours over the 4 weeks, you will have a problem, i.e. you are taking the p1ss! Trust me, this happens all too often!

P.P.P.P.S. If you have just got your PPL and dream of wanting to "tour the USA", e.g. fly from Ormond to LA/NY and back, (or some other ridiculous 2,500+ mile cross country flight), we are not going to let you do it! We really like pilots to fly within their safe/experience limitations and come home in one piece!

P.P.P.P.P.S. www, sorry to be so frank and honest, it is just a problem I have! Just tell it like it is!

[nh2301]

Please stop saying 'In the US' to describe only one training school. If you just want to hour build, there are many cheap schools. Cirrus Aviation in Oregon (just down the road from me) is renting a C150 for $65 an hour wet. That's 33GBP, and they do a 10% block discount so that's 3000GBP for 100 hours.


So by your logic, the US is half the price of the UK, right? :ugh:

If you just want to bash a particular flightschool, then do that, but stop giving bad advice that somone might be foolish enough to listen to.

[nich-av]

Unfortunatly due to the rules about advertising on pprune I can't tell you any more about the company.


So now you have a company? Really :rolleyes:
So why can t you afford to advertise on any website, let alone have your own website?

There was nothing anti US in my post, i've been there, merely trying to highlight the potential costs to people. Its obviously their choice at the end of the day. People automatically think US cheap = UK expensive. Not the case!!!


Then you surely picked the wrong place.
US is cheap, uk is expensive, no one s gonna change it.

Reasons:
-Avgas is less than 2.5 GBP/gallon instead of 5 GBP/gallon
-Minimal registration and paperwork fees
-Lower parts cost due to bigger market
-More competition
-Lower expenses on food (you can get a good burger with fries and some pop for less than 6$ almost anywhere)

Ok, sure there s a hotel to book, a car to rent and an airline ticket to buy.
Say your car rental costs you 20$ a day, your hotel 40$ a day (you re not staying at the Hilton), your airline ticket 50$ a day.

That s 110$ a day.

Now that s alot of money unless you can divide the cost over 3 to 5 hours a day.

If you only fly 3 hours a day, you d be paying 36$/18GBP per hour on expenses.
If you get to fly 5 hours a day, the split cost per hour is lowered to 22$/11GBP per hour.

You can rent good c-150s for less than 70$/35GBP an hour around the country.

So yes, you can definitely stay below 50GBP an hour in the US.

What's the lowest rental rate on a Cessna 150 in the uk?
Somewhere around 85GBP/hour with actual Avgas prices???

YES, the US is cheaper!!!!



PLUS: in the UK you'd spend 10GBP on landing fees and 5GBP on your car trip to the airport alone... I wouldn't be surprised if they start charging for flight planning as well...

[XL319]

This was NOT a dig at your school Adrian so please don't take it so personal, but I understand you will want to protect your company image. I understand that you don't want other people giving the costs out as it could effect who comes to you for training. Your costs are good yes, however there is cheaper out there!!! It was a mere calculation on the "true" costs of hour building. Make the buyer beware as they say.

I'm sorry to disappoint AT, but £5920 is actually a C152 so slightly better than yours....with ADF, VOR, DME, ILS, Mode C, and only 5096 hours airframe. But sadly no autopilot :E

I would like to add that £5920 actually includes Hangerage, Insurance, including any maintenance.

Ok so lets break this down - £70 PCM standing charge (allows for insurance, maintenance, etc etc) - ok for 6 months £420 -5920 = £5500

£5500 / by 100 - £55.00 hour WET (just went up from £50.00 due to fuel costs) - we calculated on 24 ltrs fuel burn per hour not 20 as some people forget to lean (20.6 ltrs fuel burn if you lean correctly)

Fuel is currently £1.49 inc VAT (correct at time of writing) Comes in at 49.69 per hour.

It even includes oil!!!!

Seems a bit of a "deal" to me!!

ALL PRICES INCLUSIVE OF VAT

I would like to add that it is people's choices when it comes down to it and people should be aware of the actual true costs! I would like to add that with OBA you only allow for 3 hours flying per day (correct me if i'm wrong), i'm sure that there must be other restrictions with other people training at OBA which "must" limit the use of the aircraft some way or other.

I don't work for any school or club, but actually a no equity group!!! (no i dont own the aircraft either)

If you require something a little bigger we do have a C172 at £110 standing charge PCM and £70.00 per hour WET!!

P.S. I'm just telling it how it is!!!

[A and C]

The problem as I see it is that on these foums people are trying to push a personal point of veiw.

For instance "You can eat like a king in the USA for a lot less than over here" This if this statment was objective it would read " you can eat very badly in the USA for a lot less than you can over here".

Unlike most of the peope on this forum I have lived, trainned and flown for a part 121 airline in the USA and look at things a bit more objectivly.

OBA are not the cheapest it the USA but they do have a track record of coming up with the goods, I found that the cheapest operators in the USA could of most of the time NOT come up with the goods largly due to the appauling state of the aircraft (I am told that the OBA fleet is a bit on the "well worn" side to look at but the operation simply could no run if the maintenance was not being done to a high standard as reliability would suffer to a point at which the business would not be viable).

The fact of the matter is that the cost of 100 hours flying is about the same on both sides of the Atlantic in you live in the UK (may be slightly cheaper in the UK) by the time you get to 150 hours the USA is slightly cheaper if you do it all in one trip, after that the USA wins hands down on price.

The one thing to remember ith the USA is that i is not worth dealing with any one who is offering rock bottom prices, quality only will come with prices about 30% above rock bottom, It is no use getting to Florida with two weeks holiday in which to build hours only to find that the aircraft is "tech" and won't be avalable for ten days!

nh2301

I have no doubt that you can get an aircraft for roughly half the UK price but it is all the aditional costs that increase the hourly rate to about the same as the UK the other problem is finding a reputable company to rent the aircraft from, as I have said in other posts two companys in the USA failed to produce the aircraft when they had agreed to do so, the third company that I approached was very professional but charged about 25-30% more for a top rate service and I did my CPL/multi & IR with them.
As I was living in the USA at the time this was not a problem but if I had been on a two week hoiliday it would have been a disaster.

[mcgoo]

A and C, I think you will find I am being objective, my first post said

"There are benefits to both ways, it's down to personal choice really"

You can't really get more objective than that!

My point is when people do these comparisons they don't do them fairly, people will quote a UK figure for eg £70 an hour and then say things like " well in the US, you have to pay for food, housing, flights, out of pocket expenses, going out, transport, etc"

In the UK these expenses will also be incurred but dont seem to get counted, on top of the landing fees etc.

I'm not trying to push a personal point of view, merely pointing out you need to work out the true cost of both methods and compare like for like.

[Julian]

I think hour building in the UK and hour building in the US are flown differently. When I say that I mean that if you booked 100hrs in the UK you would probably fly it off over several weeks/months and may just burn holes in the sky, retracing the same routes with the odd trip outside your usual boundaries.

If you went to US, you would be going with a mindset of yes flying hours off but also having a bloody good time whilst you are over there. I think this is demonstarted here as people are enquiring about where is interesting to go. If this is the case and you actually intend to do something with your time over there and not burn hours off then a few hundred pounds difference when you inc hotels, etc wont really make any difference to you.

It doesnt to me when I go over there, which I still do despite owning a share in a very nice IFR equipped aircraft over here.

I would also add that if you were hiring a C150 then I have no doubt that the cost difference these days is going to be minimal, if you were penny watching then you may in fact end up staying this side of the Atlantic if that is all you wanted to do. However, when I go Stateside and go touring I prefer something a bit nicer than a C152 with bits hanging off it, last time I hired a brand new C172 SP with G1000 for $150/hr WET. When you venture into nice twins then the cost differential is even greater - this is when going Stateside could be more beneficial to you.

J.

[177Pilot]

There are some great points about OBA: (1) the instructors are highly qualified Embry Riddle graduates for the most part; (2) the maintenance staff are fast and efficient; (3) there is great comradeship in the housing units.

On the negative side, AT could count on one hand how many times a "full-refund" was given to an hour-builder in the past year. Darlene believes rain, hail, or hurricanes are "acts of God" and not OBA's fault, thus the "cancellation fee." Of course, the grounding of the Liberty fleet may be an exception, the purchase clearly a poor management decision.

AT, if more time was spent addressing the concerns of past, present, and future students instead of your obsessive defense of these legitimate criticisms, you may get another 18 years out of OBA.

[nich-av]

The fact of the matter is that the cost of 100 hours flying is about the same on both sides of the Atlantic in you live in the UK (may be slightly cheaper in the UK)


What's the cost at your place for 100 hours on a Cessna 150?
Include airport fees, gas to the airport, etc...

I'm sure you're very far from beating us on pricing!

I can acertain you that our pilots save at least 2K over what you are charging for 100 hours.

Solution:
You should try to change your line of marketing and I'm gonna help you on that, what I expect in return is for you to stop posting non-sense about uk being cheaper, because you know it's not.

Now, you have a clear advantage over US hour building but you are not using it. People don't need to take leave to hire your airplanes. People need to take leave to head to the US. Now focus on that and no one will dispute it, you can go on doing your marketing on this website and everyone will coexist peacefully. If I get requests from guys who can't take leave I can forward them to you (that's how you create partnerships!)

Try to make friends of your competitors.
Take example on the airlines and their alliances.

[TicketyBlue]

I was wondering how long this thread would go before the AT bashing started.... :rolleyes:

[doctordoom]

Not a bad place at all for doing hour building, I did 100hrs there myself. I did not get all my hrs done in the time I went for, but there was no trouble in going back out and finishing them off. I would not take much notice of the pic's in the link, the student accom has got done up and is alot better than in the pic's also the bar is not that bad and the cook (Barbie) is the niceist person you will meet as is most of the staff at OBA just keep your nose clean and they will do there best for you. Do check out JTs place it is amazing, just keep an eye out for some very high mast's around the place :eek: .

[XL319]

Please tell me "ticketyblue" where the AT bashing in this thread is??????? Stop creating a problem where non exists.....it is a mere comparison between prices etc:ugh:

[177Pilot]

Do not get the impression that I want to OBA bash... Many students have spent their life savings learning to fly successfully at OBA. Discussing old aircraft, few instructors, weather factors, creative accounting, and comparison shopping does not constitute bashing OBA.

You must be an informed consumer and weigh all the factors before you spend nearly $10.000US for a dream. OBA will keep your money if you do not complete your flying package. If you run out of time because of weather or anything, they will recalculate at full retail your transportation, housing, flying hours, and testing which will eat up any money remaining on your flying package. These facts are not in dispute by any of the readers or OBA.

The more we all talk about FTO's that service foriegn students who have very little recourse once they return to their country of origin, the more we will keep the unsavory characters who prey on the dream out of the business. And, that comment is not directed to OBA.

[VFR Transit]

Paris

Check your PM's

VFR

[TicketyBlue]

In this particular instance it sounds to me that the whole UK vs US cost analysis is irrelevant. It sounds to me that VFR Transit has already set his heart on doing hour building in the US - correct me if I'm wrong. If that is the case then he only needs to compare prices in the US (obviously). As for OBA, like some of the other posters, PM me if you want up to date photos of the last few weeks or so, including shots of the new Cadets. If it's of any help, I shared a room at OBA with an hour builder on the PA28 and he was battering in around 30 hours a week easily. He had the aircraft for the entire day in some cases but for the most part, an entire half day. It's really up to you how committed you are. Turn up on time, make good use of the aircraft and you'll be fine. The guys that came a cropper where the ones who had the aircraft for the entire day and used it for an hour.

[VFR Transit]

You are correct that i am 100% doing hour building in the USA, while on a business trip.

Where i do the Hour Building has not yet been sorted.

You have a PM

VFR

[RomeoDelta155]

Has OBA added to their fleet of PA28s

[sparx007]

yeh...well...cadets at least.....they bought some from flight safety i believe...fairly nice too!!!! about 4-5 sitting on the ramp i's told!!!!

[geordiejet]

FAA register states they have 6 on the books at this time.

[Silent Witness]

Dont believe AT on the refunds. Your refund is subject to a 'cancellation fee', and your cash 'follows' you home after you get back in the UK. It required a letter from me to get the refund about 6 weeks after my return. Didnt get my hours because of student overload, and hardly any instructors. Go elsewhere, trust me.

[THE WELSH WIZARD]

I have heard that they hav a tendency to cancel flights for stupid reasons, and if you cancel the block bookings you only get back a percentage of the cash you have put in.

Good luck any way. :)


"listen to sw" :ok:

[TicketyBlue]

I know of someone who waited several months for their refund to "follow them home"

[Gingerbread Man]

I went out to FL last year to do some flying as one of my UK instructors regularly goes out there to teach and can do CAA examinations. I did an FAA multi and a CAA night rating in a week with Sunrise Aviation at Ormond (across the tarmac from OBA) and was quite happy with the airport and the instruction. The instructor (UK one) wasn't very flattering about OBA, but then he wasn't very flattering about Sunrise either, and has since moved his 'operation' to St. Augustine.

I couldn't complain much about Sunrise as I was thoroughly impressed with the amount I got done in one week. For example, the Seminole I was learning on had an electrical failure at one point, but was ready for a lesson in less than an hour. As with OBA, a lot of the instructors were Embry Riddle graduates and really knew their stuff.

The chap from the UK I mentioned flies for Western Air at Thruxton when at home, so you might consider giving them a call if you want to find out more.

Ginger ;)

P.S. Ormond is a great little airport. Do some night flying and a few touch-and-go's at Daytona - it's unreal, especially for someone who never used a 'proper' airport while training. By proper I mean one that had big jets parked at it.

[eninem]

Daytona is a fantastic place to land and the speedway is an added extra to see (not that you should be looking anywhere other than at the runway on approach of course)

[civil aviation]

This Thruxton 'instructor' apparently works in the U.S.A (whether at Sunrise or St Augustine) so what immigration status does he hold?
Also, as a competitor for courses/exams, it is unsurprising that he would be negative about a legitimate FTO such as Ormond Beach Aviation.
How does his training/courses/exams meet statutory reqs. when NAC, OBA, OFT etc have all had to be CAA/JAA approved FTO's?

[nh2301]

Sunrise has the same immigration approval as OBA.

They might not be JAA approved, but that's hardly a sign of quality. Unless you're doing a JAA CPL, that's a good thing. Generally FAA schools offer better training.

Their quoted price is half that of OBA's, and even with the extra costs that usually go with these deals it's easy to see where the value is.

[niallbhoy]

Lads having spent a lot of time at OBA on different occasions doing both ATPL prep and CPL i can highly recommend it. I've seen the students that moan and b***h and they are the 1's that go drinking at night and dont get up in the mornings and somehow its adrians fault when they dont pass there exams or finish there ppl's. I have made many great friends from my time at OBA and none of us ever had any problems because we always put in the work. If it costs 5000 at oba its well worth spending, cheapest isnt always best. I can always say i got excellent instruction at OBA and i even had the pleasure of Adrian instructing me for the CPL. Somehow he got me by. Think i was the first to fly the new Cadets as well. Also the planes are really well kept. Greg and the boys in the hangar are fantastic mechanics and always had the planes in tip top shape.

Niall.

[thatscaptaintou]

I wouldn't be over awed at fuel being reimbursed at $3.00 per gallon.

I went to do hours building in San Diego earlier this year when AVGAS was about $5.25 a gallon. I had it away uplifts reimbursed to me at $4.75, so $3.00 is going to set you back quite a bit.

I'd be more inclined to look for somwhere with better reimbursements than that.

[mcgoo]

I was reimbursed in full for all my away fuel at OBA.

[civil aviation]

It is simply unbelievable that Sunrise is half the price of OBA, if comparing like with like. When I was there, Sunrise fuel was way over the price charged by OBA, although OBA is a 24 hour self-service 'filling station'.
BTW 'Immigration status' relates to an individual not to a corporation.
So, whatever Sunrise has or offers, still wondering how this Thruxton instructor manages to work (legally) in the USA.

[nh2301]

Why is that relevent, exactly?

I'm English and I work legally as a flight instructor and charter pilot in the USA (not for any of the schools in question). It's not exactly difficult!

Why do you think it's any of your business? It's up to the flight school who they choose to employ.