Theory Question

[rexxxxxy]

Howdy.

A question about theory exams. Can one sit the CPL exams without completing the PPL exams? Also can one sit the ATPL exams without all the CPL exams done?

It relates to a friend who has lost their medical temporarily (for 6 months) and wishes to do the harder theory in a course format prior to getting back into flying. I’m aware of the 5 hours solo cross country time requirement.

Thanks.

[ReverseFlight]

"Can one sit the CPL exams without completing the PPL exams?"
Yes, you can jump from GFPT straight into CPL.

"Also can one sit the ATPL exams without all the CPL exams done?"
No, you must have a CPL(A) licence before you can sit ATPL(A)s.

[Cap'n Arrr]

One may sit the CPL exams without ever doing the PPL. If you get them done in time, you can use your CPL exams as your theory for the PPL test, then not have to do any KDRs or any more exams before CPL.

CPL exams MUST be completed before doing any ATPLs, however you do not need a CPL licence, just to have passed all the CPL exams.

I can't remember, was it 5hrs SOLO X-Country, or just 5hrs?

Oh, and I would assume your friend has passed BAK as well, that needs to be done.

If they have time, have a look at IREX as well.

End of the day, if they haven't done the PPL theory yet I wouldn't bother, there will be more than enough time to do every CPL exam in 6 months, and when the medical comes back you can still do the PPL flight test on the theory you have passed so far. If they don't have the 5hrs solo nav (if it must be solo), then still do all the other CPL exams, then do Nav(i think thats the only one you need nav time to do) after they get the medical back and do some solo nav.

Best of luck, good to see a positive attitude after such a set back!:ok:

[rexxxxxy]

Thanks to you both - very helpful :ok:

[startingout]

Im sitting met and AGK tomorrow, not PPL, went straight from GFPT onwards, only requirment is to have BAK

[Cap'n Arrr]

True startingout, but I remember having to have some nav time for both the PPL exam and the CPL NAV exam. Not for any others (or maybe I did need it for performance, it was a while ago...)

[ReverseFlight]

Fully agree you can go from BAK straight to CPL exams, by-passing GFPT and PPL(A).

With due respect to Cap'n Arrr, one cannot sit ATPL(A)s without a full CPL(A) licence. On the ASL booking website, you will find the ATPL section "greyed out" with a bold notice at the bottom saying you have not been authorised by CASA to sit the ATPL(A) exams. Please see the following link for the definitive authority (para 5.3):

http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/download/h12.pdf (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/download/h12.pdf)

[Cap'n Arrr]

Ok, then, thats different to what I read somewhere else.

From the CASA ATPL Info sheet (which is older than the one you linked)

2.2 Proof of Eligibility - Prior to sitting the examination the candidate must produce for sighting by the Invigilating Officer a CASA result slip that he/she has passed the CASA Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) examination. An Australian Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) is adequate proof of eligibility.Also from Nathan Higgins site (not CASA I know)

Examination Pre-Requisites
The pre-qualification requirements for the ATPL is a pass in the Australian CPL(A) theory examination or a CPL(A) Licence. You will be unable to book an examination unless you meet this requirement.Lastly, from the link you gave:

EXAM | PRE-REQUISITE QUALIFICATION
PPLA | BAK Aeroplane pass
CPLA | BAK Aeroplane pass
ATPL Aeroplane | CPL* Aeroplane exam pass, CPL(A) licence
ATPL Helicopter | CPL* Helicopter exam pass, CPL(H) licence
IREX | PPL or CPL licence
PIFR | PPL or CPL licence
AFR1 | Flight Instructor Rating
(*full, and not partial, exampass -- for multi-part exams, a full exam
pass means that all multi-parts have been passed within the permitted
period)Could that be interpreted to mean Australian CPL Theory OR Australian CPL Licence? Why write both down otherwise?

Not having a go, but not entirely convinced either way anymore.

Sigh at CASA not adding the word AND or the word OR in there. Make life a lot easier, it would.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Hi

OK to stop any confusion from various sources here. I only hold a PPL currently but have completed all my CPL subjects, IREX and have 3 subjects left of my ATPL's.

So here are the FACTS;

You only need to have a BAK to sit CPL exams. (You will need to show the exam supervisor your log book providing this for every CPL exam)
You need a PPL to get your IREX (Don't ask me why, but thems' the rules)
You only needed CPL subject passes to sit ATPL examsYou cannot sit say ATPL Met once you've passed CPL met, you need to have passed all 7 CPL subjects.

I'm not sure why one needs to hold a PPL to sit the IREX, but you do, as CASA see it as a "rating/endorsment" even though passing the IREX allows you to do squat... :ugh:

Also, I believe that the 5 hours cross country requirement is only for those who are doing a 150 hour CPL.

[john_tullamarine]

Keep in mind that, for any CAO requirement, if you can put up a reasonable case, there is the option of requesting a concession (exemption, whatever term you prefer). You may not win but the option is there to ask.

[Blogsey]

With due respect to Cap'n Arrr, one cannot sit ATPL(A)s without a full CPL(A) licence.

Well I did just that. I started sitting the ATPL exams prior to having a CPL, however I did have to show my CPL exams pass (from pre-military life).

[tubby one]

you need a PPL to get the Irex because it is a rating and thus must 'attach' to a licence. the SPL does not 'qualify' as a licence :p

[Lasiorhinus]

With respect, tubby, IREX is not a rating. It is a theory exam.

[ReverseFlight]

Gentlemen, I was in exactly the same predicament less than 6 months ago in that I had passed all my CPL(A) exams but yet to do my CPL(A) flight test. I was assured on 2 separate phone calls by 2 individual CASA officers that I could proceed to sit my ATPL(A) exams without my CPL(A) licence. I proceeded to swot up for certain ATPL(A) subjects and attempted to book exams on ASL when I was ready to sit them. However, I was blocked out and ASL asked me to refer the problem to CASA.

After a series of emails and more calls into CASA, they sent me the regulation and interpreted it as "AND", not "OR", i.e. I must have all CPL(A) passes AND the CPL(A) licence in order to sit the ATPL(A) exams. I could hardly argue with them but I had to change plans to get my CPL(A) flight test completed before repeating my ATPL(A) theory studies to get ready again for the ATPL(A) exams. I had wasted a lot of time and effort on the back of assurances from certain CASA officers.

If you know anyone who has been able to sit ATPL(A) exams without a CPL(A) licence, I'd really like to know. WBB and Blogsey, were you under the new system ? If so, maybe this is a case for the ombudsman.

[kalavo]

ReverseFlight can I suggest printing out http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/download/2002exam.pdf and taking it to your next exam. Specifically paragraph 5.12

[WannaBeBiggles]

ReverseFlight, I STILL don't have a CPL, but have all my CPL subjects and know of atleast half a dozen other guys on the Higgins course that are in the same boat...
(In fact I'm sitting Flight Planning tomorrow!)

Maybe try what I had to do for my PPL when I wanted to sit the IREX before getting my licence sent to me (the paperwork was already on the way to Canberra, but I didn't want to wait the full 2-3 weeks to sit), ring CLARC and get them to mark it on the system that you passed. They'll then ask you to email them to that affect and it should be alright...

I wouldn't even mention that you had problems previously, just tell them you want to sit the ATPL's and need the passes marked in the system (as I believe that's all that is required).

Hope you can get that sorted mate. :ok:

[jbr76]

A question about theory exams. Can one sit the CPL exams without completing the PPL exams? Also can one sit the ATPL exams without all the CPL exams done?

You can, but there are limitations as to what exams you can and cant sit.

See Below

http://users.bigpond.net.au/jbr/prereqs.jpg

Hope that clears up the ambiguity.

[Blogsey]

WBB and Blogsey, were you under the new system ? If so, maybe this is a case for the ombudsman.

Not sure what you mean new system, but I sat the first ATPL exam about August 2006. I received my CPL licence (a simple application to get my military licences converted) in about March 07, as I needed the CPL licence to hold an ATPL licence.

On entry to the first ATPL exam, I had to show my CPL theory pass result.

[ReverseFlight]

Blogsey, by new system I meant through ASL. I wonder if your military licence made a difference.

WBB and Kalavo, yours is good advice. Thankfully I got all my ATPL exams behind me now but I hate anyone else to go through the same nightmare, not to mention the added cost of tuition and flight training.

I suppose the moral of the story is : check Pprune regularly ...

Safe flyin, and good on ya all.

[The Shield]

Sorry guys I must beg to differ!

I was under the instinct impression that to be able to qualify to sit the ATPL (A) exams one must of had to of passed the GFPT (A), PPL (A) AND CPL (A) theory exams, but also had to have credits in the IREX (A) examinations also (and to have passed the practical GFPT and PPL (A) component), although if you have credits in the GFPT (A) and PPL (A) and are accepted into an accredited AACAATP CASA MPL integrated course then you can complete the CPL (A) theory component up to the ATPL (A) (and H) without the practical endorsement- these theory credits being valid for a period of 3 years, but are voided should you not complete the practical component of the accredited AACAATP CASA MPL integrated course and further not being recognized should you fail to complete to a satisfactory standard the accredited AACAATP CASA MPL course.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

Hope this helps,

Regards;

The White Shield

[Lasiorhinus]

Sorry, The Shield, your distinct impression is incorrect.

There is no such thing as a GFPT theory exam - you are thinking of the BAK, Basic Aeronautical Knowledge.

WannaBeBiggles gave the three facts, and I'll repeat them for clarity.

So here are the FACTS;
You only need to have a BAK to sit CPL exams. (You will need to show the exam supervisor your log book providing this for every CPL exam)
You need a PPL to get your IREX (Don't ask me why, but thems' the rules)
You only needed CPL subject passes to sit ATPL examsYou cannot sit say ATPL Met once you've passed CPL met, you need to have passed all 7 CPL subjects.

Nothing more complicated, no confusing caveats, its actually as straightforward as WBB points out.

[The Shield]

56 minutes....:ok:

I'm not sorry to say Lasiorhinus, but your distinct reply has kept me in beer this coming weekend!!!

Nice work :ok::ok:

(56 minutes!!!??:D)