How goes the REX EBA "negotiations" ?

[apache]

Been strangely quiet on here about anything to do with the REX negotiations that are underway at present.
Has anyone got anything to share ?

maybe a quote from Chairman Mao about how he won't pay the pilots any more money ???

[wethereyet]

Our union has been incredibly silent with just a couple of weeks left on existing EBA, and it is rumoured that when LKH was in town a few weeks ago he cancelled an EBA meeting - something to do with mis-management having better things to do I believe (along with his philosophy that he dictates the terms).

To top it off it seems there is little direction being created within the pilot group in terms of how we are going to obtain a viable EBA - unless this changes, LKH WILL dictate the terms.

We need more union leadership - but that would seem unlikely when we have so few union members to demand a quality union response to this situation. :sad:

[clawmonstar]

You are kidding me. The management dont want to negotiate! Thought they would have been proactive in trying to lock in a deal to keep pilots.

Shows that they are quite scared about it possible. Hopefully a chance for the Rex boys and girls to get a few steps up (Capt's earning 100k etc).

[KRUSTY 34]

Morning apache.

wethereyet, very true I'm afraid.

To better understand the mindset of management in all of this, it may be prudent to take a look at history and how the pilot groups of both REX and their predecessors have been swindled over the years.

1995: Hazelton Airlines embarks on a disasterous attempt to break into the domestic market by inaugarating a Sydney-Geelong service. It fails and after 12 months is discontinued after a loss of $2.5 mil, and the retrenchment of some 20 pilots! At the 1996 EBA negotiation management request a pay freeze of 2 years in order to help the company get back on it's feet. An undertaking was made, that during the next EBA, the 2 years will be made up, ie: 6% will be on the table + CPI for the next 2 years + whatever productivity offsets can be negotiated. The pilot group agrees.
1998: At the beginning of the EBA negotiations the pilot representatives remind the current management of their pledge. Their answer, "That was made by the previous management and as such has no relevance today"! The pilot reps reminded the General Manager that he was in fact the deputy at the previous EBA. He is unmoved and refuses to take responsibility for the aforementioned pledge. Furthermore the company position is that it may consider a CPI rise but only if certain working conditions are given up! The offer made without "productivity offsets" was approx 1% below the then CPI. Needless to say the negotiations were difficult and heated, and when told that the offer made by the company would not be accepted, the General manager at the time bypassed the negotiating team and put the company's proposal direct to the pilot group. It was rejected almost by 100%. The final outcome, after nearly 8 months of unmittigated bullsh!t an EBA that provided 0.5% P/A above the then CPI with concessions on T&C's was agreed upon. So, by the end of the 1998 agreement, the Hazelton pilot was approx 5% worse off and had given up long standing T&C's into the bargain.
2000: The same pattern repeats itself. The outcome? an EBA that only keeps place with CPI. Hazelton pilots are still approx 5% behind.
2001: Ansett collapses taking with it Hazelton, Kendall, Aeropelican, and Skywest. 12 months of Administration follow.
2002: The Kendell and Hazelton business's are combined to become REX. The new CEO picks the eyes out of both EBA's, slashes conditions and adopts the lower of the two pay scales, (Hazelton pilots were paid approx 5% less than their Kendall counterparts) so guess which one he picked. He tells the pilot group in no uncertain terms to "Take it or leave it". Because of a rather infamous civil war within the Kendall camp due to the displacement of the mostly senior CRJ pilots, the remaining Kendall group endorse the EBA. The Hazelton pilot group almost unaminously reject it. Having absolutely no idea of industrial law the CEO pronounces the new REX EBA a done deal. Of course the Industrial Relations commision had other ideas! The CEO was this time forced to negotiate. the company asked for the assistance of the pilot group in helping it through this early period, and you guessed it, requested a pay freeze untill the 2005 EBA, with an undertaking to "make good at the next EBA! Sound familiar. Certain T&C's were placed back on the table, nothing new of course, simply rights that were swept away during the period of uncertainty. After a period of complex negotiation, the 2002 EBA was finally certified. The result, REX pilots will now be approx 14% worse of in terms of pay by the end of the EBA in 2005! That is based on what Hazelton pilots should have been paid. Compared to their higher paid Kendall and Eastern counterparts, the figure would be closer to 20%!
2005: REX offer a wage rise approx 1% below the current CPI. They do however introduce a profit sharing, and share gift program. The sucess of this is very much dependant on the performance of the company as a whole. As a result the pledge by the previous management to make good the approx 9% due to the wage freeze was discounted as Having no relevance as it was made by a previous management! I'll say one thing for the bastards, they're consistant! The EBA was finally accepted and as a result the base salary of REX pilots by the end of the 2005 EBA is now approx 17% below what a Hazelton pilot could have expected if their wages had simply kept pace with CPI since 1995!!
2008: So hear we are today. I have been told that the REXPC and the AFAP heve submitted a progressive EBA proposal that will amongst other things help to mitigate the loss of irreplacable crews and at the same time provide valuable lifestyle benefits for existing and future pilots. Whilst I sincerely applaude their efforts and integrity, I'm afraid they are dealing with a beast that has proven over many years to be unworthy of that level of dedication.My prediction, and I do hope I'm wrong: The Company will offer a similar package to the 2005 EBA. There will be no acceptance of responsibility for the real reduction in wages over the last decade or so. The mantra of "We cannot afford more" and "we cannot compete with the domestic airlines" will fortify them against any moral or logical arguement put forward by the negotiating team. The dedicated members of the REXPC (unpaid for their labour) will be forced to submit a substandard document to the pilot group for a vote. As the majority of current REX pilots probably do not see themselves with the company in 12 months time, the proposal will more than likely get up. Management, cloisted in their ivory tower, and ignorent of the real issues, will no doubt be patting themselves on the back. As for the REXPC and the rest of REX's largest employee group, the only option open to them will be Take it or leave it! Sadly for REX, many will in fact choose to leave it.

[ABX]

I often find it amazing how people forget to look to the past for guidance.

There's a saying that goes something like this: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!"

Perhaps the Rex pilots need reminding of this one Krusty?

[apache]

I believe that there is another saying.. something along the lines of "History is wasted on the young"

It is indeed an unfortunate and sad story about two once great airlines.

A catch 22 perhaps in the eyes of management, who BELIEVE that REX is only a stepping stone for pilots to move on. Whilst T&C's are like this, it will continue to be treated as a stepping stone. If T&C's were improved, then maybe people would stay a little longer.... OK, costs more in the short term, but saves in the long term.

oops... management don't get bonusses for LONG TERM achievements!!!!

Hate to say it guys and gals... it is NOW time to UNITE, and stand firm.

[KRUSTY 34]

That's absolutely correct ABX, but I wouldn't be too hard on the previous and current pilot groups. If there is one thing that I have learnt over the years, it is that these "negotiations" are about one thing only, Leverage!

Unfortunately in years gone past the company(s) have always had the uper hand in this regard. Short of something along the lines of '89, what can we do? The unilateral decision to ban working on days off would have brought the crewing issue into serious focus, and perhaps, just perhaps, may have made the company take notice. The problem with that is that under Work-Choices it was made illegal to organise any sort of ban on overtime. That was deemed illegal industrial action! As there was no official direction in this regard, most pilots, especially low paid F/O's were reluctant to knock back working on days off. with work choices gone, maybe now is the time to start talking and acting tough?

Any sort of action in this regard will bring condemnation from the company (In the past they have even taken veiled swipes at the pilots for going sick!), so if it is going to be guerilla warfare, it will get nasty. Most professionals would rather see a concilliation process aimed at a mutual benefit for both parties. Sadly, sucessive mangements have proven themselves completely defective in this regard!

So there are really only 2 options.

Get tough, get united, reject any substandard EBA proposal, refuse to work over-time, but work legally within the EBA.
Leave for greener pasturesAs long as the majority of pilots choose the latter option (and who can blame them), then we will continue to see an erosion of the REX pilots wages and conditions...17% since 1995 and falling!

[Flying Meat Cleaver]

One thinks that maybe management have been somewhat distant about there thoughts on the new eba. Kinda like maybe not even addressing the new document at all. Maybe they think the current eba is good enough! (yeah maybe, maybe for rats in the singapore sewers but not for professional pilots in Australia)

FMC.

[KRUSTY 34]

You probably hit the nail on the head FMC.

I would be surprised if REX management have any intention of negotiating at all. The usual M.O. is to duck, weave, and generally stuff the pilot Reps and the union around untill such time as they give up out of sheer frustration.

Make no mistake boys and girls, they have already made up their minds as to how much they will give.

ZIP!

[wethereyet]

Krusty, I disagree, they have made up their minds on how much they would like to pay.

It is the pilot group that will determine our labour rate, not management (within fair and reasonable boundaries) - either by sitting back and being dictated to by a very arrogant management, or by only offering our labour at a fair and acceptable rate.

Hopefully as a group we can come to terms with the fact that we will not see a cent more unless we make it clear to management that they will leave us with no choice but to exercise our right to withdraw our labour if they will not negotiate fair and acceptable remuneration. Just the same as BP will not pump fuel into our SAAB's at a price management would like to pay.

It really boils down to whether there are enough pilots left in the company that actually care about the future T&C's for rex pilots. Those that do not care should NOT vote when it comes time, so as to not dilute the votes of those that care.

BTW, anybody know why this thread has ended up in the GA forum?

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday wethereyet,

There really are the only 2 options, and I do in fact agree with you. The problem will be to get everyone united enough. If we acheive that, then anything is possible. but as I said previously it will get nasty. Management, especially REX management do not like having terms dictated to them. proper negotiation has failed. Years of history bears that out.

Who knows, if people get pissed off enough, they just might finally unite. Now that would be something to see.

[go_soaring]

9 more days until the ball is in the employee's court?

[Flying Meat Cleaver]

I think crew have already decided to vote with their feet. Fighting is seems not worth the effort. Management have decided that cadets are the solution to people leaving at thats it. Thus no real improvement in T&Cs.

The near future doesn't look good with so many people having jobs lined up with other companies. I would say at a guess that in the next two months the resignations will be thick and fast. Once others' training programs start to move again that is.

This will cause major disruption to services. You think the pilot shortage has affected the company, you aint seen nothing yet! Also factor in that the training of pilots is too slow due to the somewhat 'stalled' sim training and the loss of good quality check and trainers. It is barely handling the current requirements as it is.

I actually think the point of no return is fast being reached. Management will still be sitting in their 3rd floor board room looking at a row of W/Ts parked against the fence. Oh, and thinking, "at least the Beemer in the car park has been paid off."

FMC.

[Captain Nomad]

Krusty, you really should send that brief history lesson to a journo who would be gutsy enough to publish it. It could really help explain in fairly brief, plain terms to the plebs why people keep moving on from Rex. It is not ONLY that people want to fly jets. How many other industries out there would be that far behind just the simple old CPI (taken for granted by most workers)...?! How many other people and industries would tolerate what has happened? What an example of backflip treatment to those who have personally sacrificed for the good of the company - no wonder people move on...

[tenfouroldmate]

Krusty, excelent work. Someone who can spell out the facts like your good self should be on the REX board!
Totally in agreeance with the Nomad; forward some details to a journo for release to the public. What has a journalist got to loose by publishing some stories in magazines or newspapers anyway? They love a good story!:ok:
When it comes down to it, I believe that REX deserves to fall on it's a**e if it doesn't come to the table with anything less than a suitable EBA for pilots that takes into account the current climate. I refer to "climate" on two angles;

The finacial unrest in the economy - fuel, food electricity, water, everything that comes into day to day living.
the pilot shortage - pilots will keep leaving if the conditions aren't favourable. What else would you expect? It's hardly nuclear engineering!!Pay the money and stop forcing the pilots that work at REX to live on or below the poverty line... have some Freakin' pride in the company! At every level - by the way, the "company" is not management back pockets.
10 - 4 out.

[Alien Role]

Krusty,
You have obviously been with the "Rex" group for some time and I sympathise with your frustrations in seeing the combined group being destroyed.

As I assume you are relatively senior, can I also assume you are also C&T?
Because of the throughput of pilots at Rex , you, and all the other C&T Captains must be so exhausted because of those continual C&T duties???

Can I suggest that ALL C &T CAPTAINS AT REX, RESIGN FROM SUCH POSITIONS because of the continaul workload and stress you must be experiencing.

Role on......

[tenfouroldmate]

It has come to my attention that pilots are more likely to make better progress in negotiations by going through the Transport Workers' Union than through other so-called pilot unions.:ugh: What they need is for heavy weights who know what they are doing to get in and kick heads - put the fear into management.

:mad:

[ABX]

Alien, I predict that Krusty is being (sensibly) careful with his identity and wont answer your C&T question.

10-4, good idea regarding the TWU, they have guts, there is no 'pilot union' in Australia that (currently) has guts.

[Flying Meat Cleaver]

You never know what the future may bring, the union and pc might decide on a 'downing of tools' so to speak should management decide not to address the new document with respect.

FMC.

[RENURPP]

Its the Pilots that need the plan, the TWU are good support.
The TWU can offer advice, and access to legal services but you guys need to negotiate with their assistance. They have little knowledge of Aviation matters. Its the name and legal support that help you win.

I assume the AFAP is supposed to be representing you guys?
They don't seem capable of fighting back. Just my opinion.
If you use them now I would go to them and tell them what you expect, not only in T&C's but in the way of assitance, if they won't follow your line of thinking advise them of the consequences and find an organisation that will.
Fighting is seems not worth the effort. Management have decided that cadets are the solution to people leaving at thats it. Thus no real improvement in T&Cs.
Thats a lazy attitude.
For the average Pilot there is little to NO effort required. The Pilot Group are the ones that will need to work.
The Pilots need to make a couple of decisions and stand as a group. That simply means vote together and then act on that vote together. This is the hard part!
It is extremely unlikely that any industrial action would be required. You decide what you want, (reasonably) take it to a pro active industrial organisation. (I say organisation as the AFAP is not a union).
The chances are simply by not signing any new agreement, applying for a bargaining period, a little pressure like not accepting duties outside your agreement things may change. The TWU are excellent at getting media coverage.
The potential for problems down the track if the management do not bargain fairly are high. Management will seek advice from their experts and be informed of the risk. They will probably resist until the pressure builds and then you may see some change.
The most frightening aspect of this within management circles is seeing Pilots stick together, its a new concept and they are not used to it.
You will never get 100% support, don't expect it and quite frankly you don't need it. I reckon around 70% will do the job fine.
there is no advantage in voting yes for an agreement that isn't up to speed.

[tenfouroldmate]

RENURPP: I am in aggreeance with you. You make a good case for a 6 year old!

Given that we (or at least I) haven't heard squat from AFAP lately, I am increasingly sure that all the souls that have invested a %age of their salary to join the AFAP union, have wasted their money. Toothless tiggers if you ask me!

While ever there is a pilot fear of "rocking the boat", or being seen to create adverse ripples against the employer, I do not believe that pilots at this stage can fully benefit (in terms of gaining a well rounded EPA with genuine salary packages), from the current pilot shortage.

In my experience operators, big and small, all over the land of Oz, will use and abuse pilots 'till the cows come home. And why not? They have been able to get away with it and its smart business operation. Now rears the ugly head of arrogance as seen by REX and QF. I bet they hope against all hope they can ride it out and come out the other end operationally in tact with pilots on s**t wages. Being on the wrong end of that management idealogy is no longer acceptable

The TWU are excellent at getting media coverage

Media coverage would be a huge card to have - the more noise, the better! :ok:

Wether it takes the TWU or AFAP to get the job done, it doesn't matter. But until pilots organise someone and/or themselves to shake the s**t out of management trees, in my view, nothings going to change much.

10 - 4 out.

[Rawrawhammer]

why bother with this thread
all the Pilots currently working there are new to the airline,2nd job,first airline job etc. so they are not going to bother or should I say risk their career/job for better salaries.As for the few expirienced capts remaining, they obviously been there for quite some time and are growing grey hairs out of their ears so they can't be bothered anymore.They have gotten used to the moral/salary/TnCs and yet remain there for some reason so they know management isn't going to do anything unless half the Pilot group unite and stop working.The cadetship is there too so the FOs got no authority to complain when they can be replaced in a heartbeat.POINTLESS:ugh:

I dont expect a reply to this nor do I want one.Im just saying what I feel it is.

[KRUSTY 34]

Bit harsh Rawrawhammer.

The hairs growng out of my ears aren't that grey!

[wethereyet]

To the moderators - this is a very timely topic... how about moving it back to the appropriate airline forum - D & G Reporting Points... unless REX is now officially a GA company?

[chief wiggum]

unless REX is now officially a GA company?

... they moved UP have they ?

Just kidding... but GA Drivers DO have better uniforms than REX folk.

Unfortunately, with the extremely high turnover of pilots at REX, there are not that many that have the hours / experience to move on, therefore will NOT want to "rock the boat" as it were in taking industrial action.

Maybe the best way to get this EBA sorted is for the AFAP to actually put pressure to bear on the PILOTS to either join the AFAP... and vote, or if they do NOT join, then they do NOT get a vote ?

POSSIBLY... even look at TWO awards ? maybe an F/O EBA and a CAPT EBA ? that would certainly ensure that at least one group gets the message across to the board ?

If fuel prices keep going UP, then recruitment will stop for a period of time, and you guys and gals WILL be stuck at REX, on whatever terms and conditions that YOU capitulate to.... THINK about YOUR future!!!! what if you younger people ARE going to be stuck there for some years yet? Surely you owe it to yourselves to get the best you can for the time and money that you have outlaid for YOUR future life!!!

On a side note, I feel that the company- any company- using fuel prices as an excuse NOT to raise pay is a pathetic attempt to bluff pilots! YES, ok, they have to pay more in fuel... but they DO recoup that through fuel surcharges, higher ticket prices etc...as well as govt rebates and tax write-offs. For the worker, the ONLY way to recoup this cost is through higher wages!!!! Whilst the company may say that they are paying more than ever now for fuel... SO ARE WE!!!! MY fuel bill has soared by about another $50 per week since 2007. which equates to $2600 per year, JUST IN FUEL!!!! IF(!) I were on $100,000 per year, then I would need 2.6% raise JUST to keep up with the fuel costs. then add that EVERYTHING else has risen, and ANY pay rise below 7% means that I am losing money... and that is ONLY to account for CPI.

do NOT accept fuel prices as an excuse to be ripped off...again! Fuel is the cost of doing business!!!!

[Spikey21]

Maybe the best way to get this EBA sorted is for the AFAP to actually put pressure to bear on the PILOTS to either join the AFAP...

Does the term WOFTAM ring a bell, group hug and then all bend over together now. :rolleyes:

[apache]

Does the term WOFTAM ring a bell, group hug and then all bend over together now.

and THAT is the attitude which means that a substandard EBA will be passed!

It is people like you, who just do not give a f*ck, and their lazy ass attitude which is infectious to others which is lowering the profession. Either stand up for yours and others' rights, or shut the hell up.

[tenfouroldmate]

Rawrawhammer, let's hope that you're not the typical attitude amongst pilots. Why bother? BECAUSE PILOTS HAVE TO SPEND A S**TLOAD OF MONEY JUST TO GET A LICENCE THEN GET PAID AN ABSOLUTE JOKE OF A SALARY, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS. DESPITE THE COMMON MANAGEMENT ATTITUDE, PILOTS DESERVE FAR BETTER WORKING CONDITIONS THAN THEY ALREADY HAVE. That's why bother!

I don't know where you work in WA, but it must be a backward type of town. You probably couldn't be bother fighting, but I bet you're in line to get the wage rise when it comes! Like Grandpa Simpson said: "I didn't earn it, I don't need it, but my god, I'll raise hell if I don't get it!"

Of course you're going to get replies posting that type of crap! :sad:

We need people like Apache - nice work! :ok:

[chief wiggum]

As for the few expirienced capts remaining, they obviously been there for quite some time and are growing grey hairs out of their ears so they can't be bothered anymore


I think that this statement you made is wrong. It would appear that they are the ones who care most!

I wouldn't feel to large wearing a nifty uniform knowing I earn around 30-40k or having someone ask how much I earn having payed almost more then that to get the job, not to mention the CPL training costs.

Am I to understand from this that you PAID for your JOB? (forgive me if I am wrong here, but that is how it reads, to me.)

[apache]

Just read REX's latest media release on Australian Securities Exchange - Stock Market Information, Stock Quotes - ASX (http://www.asx.com.au) where they say that even though they have raised the fuel levy again to $44 per sector, that airfares are still 15% cheaper than they were 6 years ago.....

so it sort of begs the question of "why NOT raise the airfares slightly to counter the pilot attrition"?

in essence, employees are subsidising the fare paying passenger, and to an even greater extent, REX's bottom line, by accepting substandard t&c's

[KRUSTY 34]

It seems that the company has still not responded to the REXPC EBA proposal. The unofficial word is now that it will be sometime in July. Great to see that REX management are treating the process as a matter of priority. NOT!! The latest REXPC memo has advised the pilot group that once the company responds to the proposal, the REXPC will brief pilots on the content. To pre-empt the response may cause undue expectations. I couldn't agree more.

This however, is what the company is really up to. Instead of engageing the pilot group in good faith, the Chief pilot is overseas in a desperate attempt to recruit cheap labour. The company is stalling, hoping that the mass influx of foriegn pilots will negate the need for any meaningfull negotiations. Once they have the required number of South Africans on the books, they will inform the REXPC of what they are prepared to offer. Take it or leave it!

For this ruse to succeed however, the company will need to recruit enough foreign pilots. Their strike rate so far has been zip, so it will be interesting to see how this all pans out. I think it's safe to say however that REX management probably won't be changeing their spots just yet.

Be prepared for more Bullsh!t!

[tiptoeturkey]

Quote... KRUSTY

"the Chief pilot is overseas in a desperate attempt to recruit cheap labour".


Bull****
There is your 'RED Herring' my friend.
Chris is on AL.
Another L** perpetrated by NIffty....
You have been taken for a ride my friend.



Just out of interest, how much extra money are/will be asking for?

[KRUSTY 34]

Ouch! Hit a raw nerve did we.

Check your sources mate, and I will accept your apology if you're game to come back.

[ABX]

...my friend.

Beware the one who says "my friend" without being a friend.

Krusty, you are really well connected mate!

[tiptoeturkey]

"Ouch! Hit a raw nerve did we."

What?

The story about CH being o/s recruiting 'cheap labour', might that be rubbish?

If it is rubbish what would be its reason?
EBA fears for the troops?

I have been reading the saga at MNG or rather the lack of success so what hope with getting crew from O/S?


To ABX the term ...my friend... is my attempt at courtesy.
If you want I will edit and remove the reference.

[Raynman]

Africa is comming, it is true! Lots of guys fleeing as to say to all over where ICAO will let them...

[apache]

raynman- i sure hope you are good with numbers ços your spelling and grammar are certainly not that of a genius.....

call me simple, but i have no idea what you are trying to say with your previous post.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"The story about CH being o/s recruiting 'cheap labour', might that be rubbish?"

tiptoeturkey, Are you telling me, or now asking me?

[tiptoeturkey]

I don't give a **** anymore, the whole story seems so depressing.

[Raynman]

Apache dude, homey, chana, my grammar probably does suck, I profusely appologise! Sorry Mr. A

You must have been a primary school teacher… :oh:

CH is a bit to the east of Oz

[KRUSTY 34]

tiptoeturkey.

It was a reasonable question as there was some ambiguity to your comments. I'm quite happy to debate the topic (after all that's what this forum is about), but if all we get from you is mixed messages, then perhaps you had better take your bat and ball and seek the refuge of those with nothing left to add.

Goodbye.

Raynman, Dude!!!

Go far enough East, and it becomes West.

[flyby]

Me thinks Tiptoeturkey has done a great job in his namesake.:ooh:

Cos this Turkey has been TIP TOEING through the TULIPS again!! :}

[tiptoeturkey]

Hey :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::eek:

[KRUSTY 34]

An interesting if somewhat cryptic reply?

[flyby]

Cryptic is one way of putting it !

Honestly Tippy is english your first language?
From the ambiguous nature of your posts id probably haved guessed an origin somewhere between mars and pluto :}

[Capt. Hall]

Have the Rex pilot group considered a strike if T&Cs do not improve?

[The Stooge]

That will achieve nothing Capt Hill, look at all the other strikes that have taken place over the years, all have achieved f@ck all. All it will successfully do is disrupt hundreds of passengers, after all they are the ones who pay our wages.

[apache]

so what would YOU suggest, STOOGE ?

Maybe just bend over and cop it again? maybe you could write the chairman a strongly worded email? maybe you could stop doing days off... all by yourself, as no-one else will back you up? maybe you can just accept it ?

MAYBE, like EVERYONE else, you could leave for greener pastures?

[wethereyet]

Stooge, real clever reply mate.

The ONLY way we will get reasonable terms is if we stop providing labour at less than reasonable terms - plain and simple really.

That means we do everything to achieve fair negotiations, and failing that we either withdraw our labour (strike) or bend over and cop it.

We have to have a target and be totally willing to follow it through (leadership from the union...?). "other strikes that have taken place over the years"... which have failed, have consistently failed to follow through as a united group, and in the end allow management to use spin and propaganda to dictate the terms.

These S&*^bags in management see screwing us and paying less in real terms year to year as efficiency gains. 5% p.a. these days is NOT even a pay RISE, it is just not a pay cut.

[KRUSTY 34]

Despite what we believe we are worth, management obviously do not share that sentiment. IMHO strike action would be difficult to justify at this stage, and would only serve to demonise the pilot group in the minds of the travelling public.

If the EBA "negotiations" bog down however (and they will), then some sort of leverage must be employed. Make no mistake leverage is the only thing they (management) understand. So what do REX pilots do? A common weekend scenerio has developed where approx 30-40 flights per weekend are now uncrewed every Friday. Crewing have been manageing to cover most of these services by calling on pilots to work on their days off. The payment for such is around 80% of what it was 10 years ago! After Tax it is becoming more difficult to justify, but after much running around there are still enough pilots willing to do it. When you consider the abysmal wages of F/O's in particular, it is not surprising that crewing are usually (not always) able to scrape together enough crews.

A ban on overtime would dramatically alter the balance of the game. Already sick leave is on the rise (winter, and crews becoming run down). If pilots refuse to work on their days off, then I feel the value of these professionals may be put into sharper focus. What is required is a request from the pilot representative body to get the ball rolling. I believe that all REX pilots would adhere to such a request, especially if it were for a limited time, (say 4 weeks) just to bring a certain amount of leverage to bear, and to demonstrate to the non believers that pilots no longer grow on trees!

[The Stooge]

apache one of my suggestions is that you never get angry you just get even. Striking is just getting angry. Maybe our wage payers the traveling public need to be a little enlightened. Its ok for a plumber or what not to knock on your door and charge $300, and then think about how much he will charge for the job. That is acceptable? Unfortunately we can bang on here all we like but nothing will ever change because we are not a united group. United we will stand, divided we will fall and thats what is happening. I gave the feds about $900 last FY and what did I get for it? A pocket sized diary and a discount card for europcar. That is where our problem lies. Our negotiators for the new EBA are employed by LKH, and trained to fly the Saab 340 magnificently, not negotiate, that is where our problem lies. Management cancels EBA meetings that is where our problems are. I would be happy to contribute to an industrial negotiator, but sadly not every one would be prepared to do that. So we are not united, instead we would rather piss and moan and not put a little hard earned where our mouths are. Apache without getting nasty, personal, and turning the perception of the whole pilot group into a pack of assh@les what other options do we have. Yes the golden rule does state he who has the gold rules, we will never have enough.

[goatwhacker]

Krusty any ban on overtime would need to be well promulgated to all - pilots, FAs, crewing, management, the union, the media and the public - that this is indeed what you are doing. At the moment crew are being somewhat unpredictable in this regard so the 'good' (for your cause) that Pilot A is doing by not working overtime is undone by Pilot B who does work overtime. Pilot C throws a different spin on things by sometimes helping out and sometimes not. There is no consistency.

In a roundabout kind of way, the point I'm trying to make is that it's either all or nothing. Only a complete ban on overtime, from Date X to Date Y, that everyone is aware IS indeed an overtime ban and not just a case of 'that pilot's being difficult', has any chance of being noticed, let alone bringing around the change that you want.

[KRUSTY 34]

goatwhacker.

I couldn't agree more.

[wethereyet]

I fail to understand this arguement on "overtime" relating only to days off. Coming in or not coming in on days off so as to increase the net benefit to oneself is not necessarily undermining the pilot group. Ultimately overtime needs to be paid for doing hours over a monthly quota, as well as sacricficing days off.

So to come in on ones days off, get paid extra is not the only problem... it is doing an excessive amount of flight ours in a calender month - say more than 65/month which equates to 60/roster of 28 days.

To me it is far worse to accept a roster which when converted to a full calender month equates to 90 hrs/month, than to alter your roster through casual days to suit your needs but ultimately do a more acceptable monthly total until such time as we are paid genuine overtime money.

To place a ban on excessive monthly flight hours is the real solution. :ouch:

[KRUSTY 34]

The problem is wethereyet, that under the REX EBA the only tangiable overtime is working on one's day off! If REX pilots place a ban on "excessive" monthly flight hours, where do you draw the line? And more importantly, how do you justify it when all parties have previously signed off on the current EBA! Whilst other perhaps more progressive workplace agreements have sought to limit a reasonable amount of flying hours (ie: 55-65 per month) as the benchmark for additions to salary, REX's EBA simply follows the legal Mins, or Max in this case CAO 48. Do you understand that arguement?

This has come about because of the ruthless advantage that sucessive managements have taken of the pilot group(s) over the previous years, (the Hazelton debarcle of '95, the collapse of Ansett, and even the uncertainty of the formation of REX itself). This pilot group have gone from having the best T&C's (Kendall/Ansett) to now probably having the worst amongst the regionals in Australia. The Chairman and his lackies have signalled loud and clear that they have no intention of redressing this shamefull state of affairs. So where does that leave the REXPC and the pilot group in general?

It's fine to rattle the sabre. But every battle is won before it's fought. The crewing issues at REX are now so dire that if pilots merely exercise their right of refusal to work on days off, you will see some serious disruption. Further schedule cuts will become inevitable, and maybe, just maybe they might start to listen. If they don't, well as always it will be the travelling public who will pay the price for REX management's failure to grasp the true nature of this situation.

[neville_nobody]

and would only serve to demonise the pilot group in the minds of the travelling public

Not if you make it known to the public what kind of salaries are being paid by REX. It you run a clever industrial campaign you could get the public on your side. US regional airline pilots have run several campaigns over the years running such a line.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"It you run a clever industrial campaign you could get the public on your side. US regional airline pilots have run several campaigns over the years running such a line."

I agree Nev. Problem is I have yet to see such a clever, let alone sucessful campaign. Also, how sucessful have the struggles of the American Regional pilots been. From what I have seen their wages continue to be appallingly low. I am happy to stand corrected though.

[Capt EFIS]

With comments like these....

"...The faint hearted, the whiners and the whingers have no place in aviation, much less in Rex, ..."

...I am sure that the EBA negotations will go well, however, it seems ironic that the person who is whinging the most is the one who wrote this comment!!

[Alien Role]

If the REX pilots continue to agree to work on RDO's, and one has a serious incident / accident and there is the slightest hint that fatigue or lack of rest is a causal factor, watch out for you will be hung out to dry!!!

Surely you have a para' in your P & P manual that states one must never turn up for work if you are fatigued or lacking sufficient rest.

Role on......

[wethereyet]

Krusty, I understand the situation completely - and am a little offended at the suggestion I might not. Working days off in a clever way can actually contribute to crewing problems, get my drift?

Nobody can come out loud and say everybody is to stop doing the 20 hours/month of FREE OVERTIME that is presently happening, since it is perfectly within the boundaries of our EBA to fly excessive hours without extra incentive. We must be more clever than to say it out loud, but rather create a culture where we as a group recognise we would be getting substantial incentives for these hours in most airlines, and to sensibly attend to the issue in a variety of ways.

[KRUSTY 34]

I'm sorry you were offended wetheryet, I was a little blunt. But for the life of me I'm not sure what else REX pilots can do at this stage. The violations of the past have led to a Wages and Conditions package, that in this day and age, doesn't even come close to stacking up to other professions. In fact it falls short of most trades!

I've seen first hand what these characters (Management) are capable of. They would pay their pilots Macdonald's wages (no offence meant to those hard working people) if they could get away with it, and then go home at night without so much as a second thought as to what the ramifications of that would be. They would be the first ones to cry foul to the IRC if pilots chose to work outside the EBA. Yet they would be quite happy for such an occurance if it suited them.

You state.. "We must be more clever than to say it out loud, but rather create a culture where we as a group recognise we would be getting substantial incentives for these hours in most airlines, and to sensibly attend to the issue in a variety of ways."

Mate, I'm more than happy to embrace any viable suggestions as to how to proceed, but you probably need to be a little more specific. Might I suggest that you contact the boys on the REXPC with these specifics. As the negotiations bog down over the coming weeks, I'm sure they would appreciate any suggestions you may have.

[apache]

any update yet ?

[KRUSTY 34]

Gone very quiet old mate.

Welcome to the wonderful world of airline "negotiation"! Stall them, cancel meetings at short notice, give them no information, treat them with contempt.

Designed for one thing of course. Hopefully they (the REXPC) will get sick of it all and just go away.

[apache]

so pretty much same same?
ie "we cannot understand why you will not accept this very generous offer which we provide. we are insulted, and will not talk to you until you apologise and accept it ?"

good to see the AFAP are pushing hard for you!!!!

[Muff Hunter]

has the current eba expired?

as for the afap, L Cox and his mates are a disgrace and should be ousted asap......

until then the afap has NO CREDABILITY!!!!!

[KRUSTY 34]

Apparently there was an EBA negotiation meeting yesterday. Apparently, because I got it about 4th hand!

Muff, the EBA expired at the end of June. It's not unusual, in fact it seems far too common for the old EBA to expire (and to be expired for some time) prior to the new one being certified. After seeing years of this sort of thing, it is primarily due to company indifference and a lack of will where industrial relations are concerned.

And that's being charitable!

[Muff Hunter]

Krusty,

Where the F*&K is the AFAP.....surely they should be putting some very firm pressure on REX to at least put out a document?

Will there be back pay to the date of the old EBA, I doubt it!!

How is the feeling amoungst the pilot group being treated with utter distain by LKH, JD and their cronies.:mad:

What will it take to get these criminals to the table???

All the best...sounds like the mass exodus from REX will soon start again!!

[No1Dear]

How is the feeling amongst the pilot group being treated with utter distain by LKH, JD and their cronies

Embarrassment and humiliation come to mind

[max1]

Unfortunately this is the way with EBA negotiations now.
When your EBA expires its no payrises til the new one is signed.
Anything you previously 'traded off' to give productivity to the company still applies and there are no carrots for you and no penalties to the company.
Good faith bargaining is what the employee expects, seeing ways to screw you over is what the company looks for.

[White and Fluffy]

Out of curiosity, what is a 1st year FO and capt at rex currently paid?

[KRUSTY 34]

As of July 08...

Capt $69K P/A
F/O $42K P/A

An absolute disgrace!

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Wow,

Another ground breaking event in Australian Aviation, soon enough we'll have to pay for a job,,,,, hang on, thats already happening.

Vote this one down with your feet.

[43Inches]

Just wondering in comparison if anyone has accurate figures on what other aus turboprop operators are paying now (and conditions if they stand out), on similar aircraft. I've heard rumors that some drivers have increased their earnings significantly in the last 12 months.

For instance Braz/Metro/Dash-100 and ATR-42 captains around $80-90k, some with weekends off and no overnights, major city bases.

[KRUSTY 34]

EAA pay is approx 20% more and with a retention bonus for Captains. I have heard however the "bonus", while still not enough is certainly a move in the right direction. It does not however have the guarentees that a proper intergration into the EBA would provide.

This lack of good faith and the "flexibility" by management to pull it when, and if they see fit, has diluted much of the effect that such a move could have been expected to have!

Mind you, it's still a far superior deal to what REX is offering.

[Capt Wally]

Geeez krusty that money is woeful! How can an F/O live on that money in a major capital city? I guess there will always be pilots who will continue to take that spare change hence they (REX) are still going. Yes I realise that they (REX) have the upper hand but would a mass revolt have an impact on the tight a**e boffins?
To those that have to be in REX do what ya gotta do & get the hell out of the place when possible!


CW

[Muff Hunter]

Some comparisons.....(pretty close I think)

Network (WA) FO's around the 55k mark and capt 80+....

Skippers around the same...

RFDS i think around the 70k

Surveillance Aus...double REX (at least)

Any other worthy Turb Prop job is Aus around the 80k mark..

Why would anyone work for these pricks....it's obvious the have little respect for their pilots.

Also, shouldn't the first cadets be on line around about now.....??
The mail is most do not even have a ppl yet!!! What a joke!!

[KRUSTY 34]

In good time the majority will Wal. The slowdown in recruitment by the majors, heartily lauded by the new CEO, will only give REX a measure of temporary relief.

2007 saw a pilot attrition rate of 60%. 2008 will see it reduced to about 40%! All but the ostrieges at Baxter Rd know that this is at best a temporay relief. Once the major airlines start recruiting in earnest (probably the first half of next year), then round 2 will make the first year's attrition seem mild by comparison.

REX has chosen to ignore the need for pilot retention. Hense the allocation of zero resources to their industrial obligations. Instead they have offered what to the uninitiated would appear to be a golden opportunity. A direct entry into a regional airline straight out of basic training. By doing this, the appallingly low salary will probably be lower on the list of priorities for this "New Age", and very young, workforce.

As far as the EBA is concerned, the grapevine is currently buzzing, and the feeling is not positive. So far no word from the REXPC or the FEDS, but watch this space, should only be a matter of days now. Despite the company's reliance on the aforementioned solution to the loss of crew, I believe it is truely a house being built on sand.

Stay tuned.

[apache]

just playing DEVILS ADVOCATE here, krusty old chap, so...
Management will be looking at the figures you've quoted (60% 2007 vs 40% 2008), and think that they have "stopped the flow". Even thought they have done NOTHING, and fortune has "favoured the brave", and let's face it - to believe that there is NO PILOT SHORTAGE is a very brave stand to make.
The really unfortunate thing here, is that when there is a statistical glitch, such as there is at the moment, these egotists believe that they were right all along!
what is probably the biggest shame of all, is that management bonusses are paid on a yearly basis with refernce to the preceding year, hence decisions made NOW, which prove to be disastrous ten years from now have NO repercussions for the individuals involved.Unlike management, who move on in bad times, PILOTS are bound by the rules of seniority... which is put in place to protect us, but when times go bad can work against us. Whereas a "manager" can move from job to job, industry to industry, with pay rise after pay rise and no "career path" as such, and retire after 40 years in the work force without ever having the anxiety that pilots have to go thru.
Ten years from now, are we going to look back and say " gee, that cadet scheme was a brilliant bit of forethought!" ? or "gee, withholding money from the workers really saved the company" ? or are we going to be looking back in TWO years and say " gee... maybe we SHOULD have tried to retain some ecxperinced pilots, and then maybe we would STILL have a business!" ? or "OK... we have 200 pilots on our books... who can we upgrade? who has the legal minimums" ???
Again.... the bonus will be paid THIS year, buit the mistakes will be realised 5-10 years from now, ad GUARANTEED... these chaps will NOT have to pay back their bonus.
I realise that this is probably a bit off topic, but I think that pilots/engineers/cabin crew etc SHOULD chase the dollar - just as management do, and if they are NOT being paid what they believe they are worth, then walk away, or stand up and tell these clowns what the situation is.
Aviation must be a very unique business, in that pilots who become management will negotiate against their brethren to screw them over, but still have the chance at a later date to return to the rank and file to suffer under the conditions that were perpetuated under their own regime!!! And, if they don't like the conditions... WILL move on faster than the line pilot that they now criticise.
Why unions continue to negotiate either with people who have no idea of what our job really entails, interspersed with a smattering of empire builders who have been on the recieving end and now want to screw the system that put them there, is beyond me. Agreed... we have to "negotiate" with someone... but surely, when pilots send their "top echelon", so could the company?

Rant over

[KRUSTY 34]

apache.

Agree 100%

The old saying, time will tell is very appropriate right now. As soon as I have something, you will be the first to know.

[Muff Hunter]

Have heard a wisper that a number of o/s pilots will be starting with rex shortly on certain type of visa to fill the shortage........

dosen't bode well for a positive neg on the EBA..

[KRUSTY 34]

Very true Muff. Just another example of the way REX management will go to extraordinary lengths to mitigate a problem, but continue to ignore the only thing that will solve the problem long term!

The pilots you refer to are South Africans being sponsored by REX on 457 visas. Lots of that going on at the moment. The real question is, how will you keep them once the major airlines begin recruiting again. Working for REX must be seen as a good thing despite the low wages, just to get out of what I am told is a deteriating law and order situation. But as vital as that is, living in a free and safe society will not pay the bills when one finds themselves trying to make ends meet in one of the world's most expensive cities. The normal bond period applied to a generation of previous REX pilots didn't stop them going to greener pastures, and I'd be surprised if it will prevent this lot from doing the same.

Well done REX, you have just provided more labour further up the chain. What did this little exercise cost the shareholders?

[apache]

so WHY has the AFAP allowed this to happen ? or has someone been slipping someone a brown envelope to keep quiet?

[43Inches]

'08 results out now for rex on ASX, Q4 profits up considerably and brings year profits up 3% on last year.

At the end of the notice to investors they point out to maintain profits will have to slow attrition of pilots to 25%pa or less.

Other points to note is that these profits were achieved on an average load factor of 68%!! thats only just over 20 pax per aircraft, can't beat the saab for value/economy.

[apache]

again... they tell investors one thing, and staff another!

I see that they are NOT willing to state that they have fixed the pilot attrition problem... rather they hope that it will fall to 25% ..... tell em their dreaming!

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"At the end of the notice to investors they point out to maintain profits will have to slow attrition of pilots to 25%pa or less."

There's only one way to do it, and I bet they will not concede that to the investors.

apache is right, they are the masters of Bullsh!t!

[Muff Hunter]

i see that they are spruiking that the cadets will be online in oct, surely this kind of info posted around their financial details is illegal...

saying they have stopped their pilot woes with cadets is shameful to say the least, especially when they barely have ppl's and will not see the saab for at least another 12 months..

[farrari]

K34, are you saying some Rex pilots left and did not pay the bond:confused:

[apache]

the bond was put in place to keep pilots for two years. I think that what KRUSTY is saying that people DID leave inside the two years and accepted that they would have to pay the bond out. and let's face it... stay at REX on 42k, or go to QF(actually ANYWHERE but REX) on 70+ and pay out 8k ? makes sense to me!

[farrari]

Was that the bond amount 8K in total

[go_soaring]

Bond of $15,000 and a 2 year service.

Reducing monthly or quaterly, I can't remember.


go_soaring! instead

[Horatio Leafblower]

Well chaps it's 2 monhs since the last update from the AFAP... any progress? Any news?