OpenSkies

[pacamack]

A lot of people have put in a great deal of hard work to get OpenSkies off the ground. Congratulations on a successful launch an all the best for the future :ok:

[goldcup]

Yeah- really well done. Honestly. Fantastic. All the way across the Atlantic. Amazing.

Must be pretty tough to have the financial clout of BA behind you, get given all the aircraft, engineering, training, advertising etc and operate one aircraft.

[Hotel Mode]

And to have seats available at the lowest prices only 1 week from now, despite only having 82 to fill. Its a triumph.

[dontdoit]

I would hardly call 32 passengers (if the papers are to be believed) on the much publicised 1st flight a "success".

[pacamack]

I believe the first flight is made up of invited guests. You probably wouldn't want to fill the flight to the brim and it would be a bit awkward deciding who to stick at the back?

[goldcup]

Wrong. Monday's flight was the non-revenue one. Today's was commercial.

[757_Driver]

typical pprune and typical english reaction - all queue up to bitch about it, no wonder this county is in such a mess with such negative people in it.

whatever you think of the openskies politics a new UK branded airline can only be good news in these tough times, and like it or not, airlines will be competing on these 'open skies' type routes so why not have some of the business come the UK's way? we certainly need it right now.

I often get the feeling that most people in the uK will only be truly happy when the whole country goes bankrupt, all the business goes elswhere, and then they can sit smugly and say "see, I told you so".
For those knocking this new business - what have you ever done to help UK PLC?

sorry for the abrupt tone, but I'm getting peed off with people continually knocking the entrepeneurs and businessmen that get off their backsides and create the jobs and tax revenue for the very people that moan about it all the time

[dantheflyboy]

:DIt is true we seem to love failure so we can bitch away. I wish openskies luck!

[boeing boeing.. gone]

757 driver

well said, there is an awful lot of moaning whinging and general negative comment/atitude on PPRUNE posts recently

well done to BA for making this happen... great to see

[pacamack]

Wrong. Monday's flight was the non-revenue one. Today's was commercial.


Are you telling me that he Mayor of Paris, amongst others, went onto the website and bought a ticket?

[topjetboy]

Some of the work seems to have been done by TCX crewing and rostering, at the considerable frustration of our own crews!

[goldcup]

packamack-

Even better- so the mayor of Paris got a freebie, meaning they only sold 31 tickets. Pretty commercially viable.....

Info on load is accurate.

[pacamack]

packamack-

Even better- so the mayor of Paris got a freebie, meaning they only sold 31 tickets. Pretty commercially viable.....

Info on load is accurate.


As previously stated, the inagural flight was for invited guests. The flights on Monday and Tuesday were proving flights to test service, process and systems.

[Skipness One Echo]

OK in fairness there are threads that people can search through and read on Open Skies. I suggest google "QANTAS, Jetstar and terms and conditions" as keywords and do some reading why BA crews are really concerned about what this new operation with the full backing of BA's managment may be able to do in future.
Peak summer and couldn't fill a B757? Not looking good. Air France will annihalate them.

[pacamack]

Peak summer and couldn't fill a B757? Not looking good


Summer is off-peak for business pax

[Re-Heat]

Logically, many people fly return journies. Therefore it is likely that on the very first flights, passengers are only flying the outbound leg and nobody is flying a return leg.

32 would therefore equate to normal operations of 64 passengers - not bad considering.

[BerksFlyer]

Re-Heat,

By the same logic, wouldn't people have booked return flights ex. NY in the first place?

That would negate the need of having to book another flight ex. Paris. Especially as it's a new airline and I doubt the average person would think 'hmm, OpenSkies' first flight coincides with my return trip, I'm going to only book a trip out with airline X, then book the return with OpenSkies'.

[CabinCrewe]

"Air France will annihalate them"
...and almost sounds as if you would take great delight in that...why?:confused:

[HZ123]

It is a positive move the start up of any airline / service. Now is not the best time and if you go onto the web site the fares are expensive and will be easliy beaten by other EU airlines. We will have to wait and see, they will have to ensure a reliable / punctual service which is not best served with 2 airframes. Bon chance!

[Re-Heat]

I'm going to only book a trip out with airline X, then book the return with OpenSkies'
Precisely - you would have to wait to see OS passengers flying their return legs with the same airline to see "true" load factors.

[Skipness One Echo]

"Air France will annihalate them"
...and almost sounds as if you would take great delight in that...why?

Because Air France fly from Heathrow to the USA with their own metal and people, BA fly from Paris to the USA with a subsidiary firm on cheaper wages / terms / conditions. That's the difference. I repeat myself but it's what QANTAS did with Jetstar. They screwed their own staff over.

[BerksFlyer]

It really is amazing that BA didn't take the same approach as Air France. How much easier and less painful would it have been. There's absolutely no doubt what's going on, and people who doubt it need to open their eyes.

[pacamack]

It really is amazing that BA didn't take the same approach as Air France.


......because being the same gives you a clear competitive advantage? :rolleyes:

[BerksFlyer]

pacamack,

Look at the trouble BA had to go through to start OS. Starting a new airline not to mention the disputes with the workforce is a lot of effort when BA could use their already well known brand in other countries. All Air France had to do was timetable a few 777s through Heathrow to operate their US services from there. Clearly they (BA) don't want their image to 'contaminate' Openskies' success. Much like they didn't want the BA mainline pilots to 'contaminate' it.

Unless BA aren't confident that they are a world brand, then surely doing the same as Air France would give them a competitive advantage?

[time4parties]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/06/19/224771/new-ba-subsidiary-openskies-starts-operations.html

He adds that the flight, which is scheduled to land in New York at 13:25, is full.

So clearly those saying that the plane only has 32 passengers have got it wrong!

[flying brain]

Congratulations Willie, Dale and the whole team - a lot of hard work has been marked by this first flight and I wish you all a successful business in the future.

(to be creating jobs in the curent climate is another reason for congratulations)

[goldcup]

Yes, time4parties, clearly. I mean, who would ever imagine a BA spokesman might be lying?

FICO (BA's own flight ops software) clearly states that there are 32 passengers on board.

Or at least there were when it took off.

[Re-Heat]

While I don't know how that system works / accounts for people - might it be that the remaining passengers are non-rev, or were sold through L'Avion?

[goldcup]

No. FICO tells you what time doors closed, ac pushed back, load etc. Doesn't care where the tickets were bought. 32 it is. Sorry.

[cesare.caldi]

What will be the next routes for Openskies? I' ve read about BRU, AMS and MXP, when will start?

[Skipness One Echo]

Depends how much money they lose with cut throat competition and incredibly high oil prices....

[Airboss]

Given that the rules do not allow advertising or sales in advance of receiving all of the US and EU approvals and this was only achieved at the end of May, the bookings look pretty good. Forward bookings are also strong. OpenSkies is a truly different experience and a great credit to everyone in the small group of airline professionals that built it in such a short period of time.

[The Member]

AIRBOSS OpenSkies is a truly different experience and a great credit to everyone in the small group of airline professionals that built it in such a short period of time. With the might of BA behind them Mickey Mouse could have set this up. The proof of the pudding is a few months down the road but Silverjet failed and that was was in the main run by a group of ex BA so called professionals. I wish OpenSkies well .

[HZ123]

To be more accurate having been to the Maidenhead HQ of OS I left there mildly depressed at the group of hasbeens that had been brought out of retirement or left BA some years ago. It is run as a gentlemens club for the past great and good. The majority I saw there never did much when they were directly employed for BA but I am usually wrong so it will probably be ok, if it fails it will be BA's fault for launching at the wrong time.

[Railgun]

Have they drafted in DE of ex BAR, BACX and Lastly BACON fame?

[carrots]

I'm slightly confused who, on a site for aviation professionals, wants this airline to succeed?

I will place my month's salary on the fact that of the (pitiful) 32 passengers on board, most would have flown with BA through LHR rather than a 'competitor'.

So we now have a BA marketed and financed plane, flying BA passengers, with US cabin crew, TCX operations, local engineering, and non-mainline pilots on crap pay.

This is not job creation. It is outsourcing at it's most blatant.

Except for a handful of Waterside managers and retired BA pilots cashing in, openskies benefits no one in the industry.

[BerksFlyer]

HZ123,

Whereabouts in Maidenhead is their HQ?

[pacamack]

Whereabouts in Maidenhead is their HQ? Yesterday 16:29

err.....it isn't in Maidenhead?!!!

[BerksFlyer]

To be more accurate having been to the Maidenhead HQ of OS

packamack,

HZ123 seems to think otherwise.

[pacamack]

packamack,

HZ123 seems to think otherwise.I appreciate that, but it still doesn't put the HQ in Maidenhead!

[Skipness One Echo]

At the risk of possibly getting to the point sometime soon, if it's not in Maidenhead, might you enlighten us as to where it is?

[Globaliser]

Wokingham?

[tinbklyn]

Honestly, I really don't understand how anything gets done in the UK.

After spending six weeks training in the UK, what I came away from was this:

The Brits are charming enough people and quite polite (usually) but DEPRESSINGLY negative, and have a deathly fear of doing anything outside of the built in structure.

I'm saying this because I'm reading the post, and see a pattern of negativity on pprune.org Status quo for the industry is about to make an abrupt change, and the sooner we all adjust to this new reality the better off we'll all be.

If you ask me, and of course you didn't, Openskies could not have come at a better time for BA. This is a face of the new reality of a world where oil/fuel prices are not going down anytime soon, or at all. Travel in the future will be restricted mainly to those of means, or absolute necessity with a few who've saved for a nice vacation thrown in the mix.
Not much different let's say, then the days prior to US deregulation of the industry.

I think these horrible days of air travel will soon be coming to an end with airlines becoming much smaller and stealthier, less seats on an aircraft at a fare that is comparable to the service. Sadly I think some old industry names will go in the history books..namely on my side of the pond.

I think OS is a mark for the future, and BA was pretty damned smart to stake a claim this early in the game.

Of course only time will tell.

[RoyHudd]

Do Mistral pilots operate on a bid-line?

[BerksFlyer]

RoyHudd,

A bid-line for one route?

[Walnut]

According to Bloomberg News British Airways has taken control of L'Avion to expand its Open Skies operation

[The SSK]

BA Press Release this morning:

British Airways has reached an agreement to buy French airline L’Avion at a cost of £54 million (Euro 68 million). The cost covers the purchase of the airline and £26 million (Euro 33 million) of cash in its business.

L’Avion is a privately owned airline that operates two Boeing 757 aircraft between Paris Orly and Newark airport. Following completion of the deal, expected this month, it will become a British Airways’ subsidiary and be integrated into OpenSkies, the airline’s new EU-US subsidiary airline.

OpenSkies launched services on June 19 this year with daily flights from Paris Orly to New York JFK that operate with a L’Avion codeshare. The combined airline will operate up to three daily flights between Paris Orly and New York JFK/Newark airports using three Boeing 757 aircraft.

British Airways’ chief executive, Willie Walsh, said: “L’Avion is a successful airline that has built up a premium business between Orly and New York in a relatively short period of time.

“It has many synergies with OpenSkies and buying it provides OpenSkies with a larger schedule and an established customer base in the Paris-New York market.”

Christophe Bejach, co-founder and chairman of L'Avion, said: "We are happy to merge our operation with OpenSkies. This transaction will strengthen our current base and enable the combined airline to grow faster and stronger. Our staff will benefit from the ambition and recognised expertise of the buyer and our customers will have access to an even better service, on a larger scale."

[Final 3 Greens]

I noticed the code share last week when checking in at Orly on another route.

Thought it a little odd, 3 class airline code sharing with a single class airline on the same route, so perhaps this announcement adds some understanding of why.

[neil armstrong]

OS second aircraft will be 2 class i've been told!

Neil

[WHBM]

So the airline had a value of £28m. Anyone know what the market capitalisation of it was at the time ? If BA also needed to stick in a further £26m of cash straight away (will be needed to pay suppliers etc) then they must have been running pretty short and needed to sell out, rather than being a cash-positive business from day to day.

I'm sure we'll have a good discussion about why the other three premium operators went to the wall with no investors interested, while this one has managed to sell itself on.

[Re-Heat]

No WHBM. It was not listed, so had no market cap at all. It has £26m of cash in the business, so not short at all (yet).

There are no other financial details in the public domain, so it would be disingenious to speculate. I suspect that having seen eos and Silverjet go bankrupt, a BA offer would be very attractive regardless.

[WHBM]

Yes, I got that wrong, read it as £26m cash "into" the business.

I see Chief Exec of L'Avion, Marc Rochet, used to head up Air Liberte, which of course BA once owned. Any long-term connections ?

[uklad007]

Ive just seen a report that BA has bought L'avion for EUR68M (including EUR33M cash) and will merge this into Openskies. So thats two more B757's and its Orly-Newark route. Wonder if Openskies will now scrap Newark to focus on JFK and use the two B757's to expand routes from other places in Europe?

[Diesel_10]

Seems the fleet consists of one PW and one RR powered. Don't think they'll integrate into OS fleet very well.

[Iver]

I am sure L'Avion pilots must feel better and more secure. Watch Maxjet, EOS and Silverjet disappear and you feel you are next without more support. Open Skies at least have some money and support from BA.

[rebellion]

Why didn't BA do this in the first place? They could have avoided many of the start up costs with openskies.

[spider_man]

If they're fully integrated with OS, does this mean 8 x B757s in service by the end of next year?

[Hussar 54]

Excellent question about why BA didn't do this in the first place and avoid the start-up costs and BALPA disputes associated with OS....

I don't know the answer to this question, but looking forward I have significant doubts that the OS project will be hugely successful...Somehow it just doesn't seem to hang together correctly, particularly the Paris services....

Brussels might succeed as there is no ' home ' market competition to the USA, but service between Paris / Amsterdam / Frankfurt / etc and New York or other East Coast cities without a network for onward connections ( not even through or with OneWorld partners, of which I believe OS is not a member ) seems to restrict the services to a point-to-point market on routes that are already highly competitive with national carriers for local passengers and alliance hubs for onward connections....

As someone mentioned earlier with the question re Air Lib, has the current BA Board forgotten the last fiasco for BA in France - this country is a graveyard for most foreign investors due to the high degree of protectionism that the French Government indirectly provides to major French companies and what are considered as strategic industries....

And even with this purchase, BA is still not quite the nuisance to AF/KL that the combined DL/NW/AF/KL presence at Heathrow now represents to BA....It won't be long before the SkyTeam group turn Heathrow into a reasonable sized hub with huge numbers of codeshares for the North Atlantic market....Does OS have this capability ? I think not - no onward networks, no alliance for high yield FT's who are ALL mile collectors, Orly is not a major hub and never can be, and, most of all, France is France and all things French !

So curiouser and curiouser....

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Trojan Horse

[Walnut]

This purchase of L'Avion looks stranger & stranger, one wonders what business model BA is really following?
Assuming they really did pay £28M for the airline (excluding cash) then each a/c has to generate £40,000 profit pd to cover that cost spread over a year. So between a full load of say 50 club equivalent pax that's £800 per pax. And that's before fuel or any other operating costs are added in.
Next the L'Avion a/c are configured differently & go to EWR, so there does not seem to be much commonality.
In fact I do believe that it is BA that has got it wrong with its route selection, EWR is much better as a hub for onward US connections & it is also easier to get into Manhatten.
So I believe the rational for this purchase is to make Open Skies grow as quickly as possible,regardless of profits, in order to justify the future purchase of chunks of BA as forecast by the pilots union

[HZ123]

Here at Waterside and Wokingham we have started this years' pantomine season earlier than useual but you would be forgiven for thinking that we continued running last years without the seasonal break. The sooner the LR A318 arrive the better. Some staff think we might do a lot better if concentrated on the task in hand at T5.

[Re-Heat]

There are portions of management who are focused on investments and alliances and those focused on operations. Both are essential to developing the business, and to suggest that one group should not be investing in the future of the business while the other are messing up T5 is hardly relevant or useful.

As to why BA did not buy L'Avion earlier, or initiate the setup with the former BA management, there are several valid reasons:

- PrivatAir was the only proven business class transatlantic operation (subbing for Lufthansa and KLM)
- 757s were highly utilised at the time and hard to source from the BA operation or elsewhere
- Management was embroiled in the Iberia LBO
- The OpenSkies business plan had yet to be conceived
- OpenSkies itself had not been negotiated, let alone finalised, introducing the complication of G-reg operations from France to the US

Frankly the world has changed a great deal in 2 years. It is disingenious to suggest that BA should have bought L'Avion at that stage - no other commentators suggested they should have done so either at the time or until they did so yesterday.

[Globaliser]

Assuming they really did pay £28M for the airline (excluding cash) then each a/c has to generate £40,000 profit pd to cover that cost spread over a year.What sort of business would write down the purchase cost of an acquisition over as short a time period as one year?

[tristar500]

The sooner WW takes his thumb from this as*, the sooner BA will start picking up - preferably with a leader who actually cares about BAs grass roots (ie UK and Europe) but off course not forgetting the bigger world-wide picture...

The downgrading of the domestic BA product along with comical attempts to 'hold onto' Premium passengers on the EDI-GLA -- LCY routes is far more of a pantomime - AND its an all year one! 7 shows a day, all week long!

Grappling and grasping for 'new ideas' to outdo the competitor is too little too late. The arrogance of BA in recent times that they are untouchable in everything they do, has now come back to haunt them.

LHR is now open-house for anyone and everyone. LCY A318 longhaul ops... Does anyone really think this will work? With only 2 aircraft and very demanding operating criteria for LCY, its not just a pantomime, its a circus! BA cant even sort out their domestic affairs at LCY nevermind introducing longhaul. Its a joke and thats being polite... :ugh:

[AirLCY]

I agree with Globaliser - there is no way the company would aim to bring in all the revenue to cover the purchase price, it's more likely to be over a period of at least 5 years.

Also BA/ Openskies are not interested in connections, the business model is for point to point traffic which is why JFK was chosen.

Re the LCYJFK point - there is a lot of excitement in the City for the route, even with the fuel stop, it will work really well, but should have been started sooner!

[Skipness One Echo]

On downgrading the domestic network, Glasgow has lost one of the two overnighting early Heathrow services which used to be packed every day and made the money on the route! WTF is going on?

[flightlevel26]

How do you exactly know it makes money? Remember the numbers of bums on board does not mean it makes money!

[Deep and fast]

Don't worry about the GLA LHR pax. Our company will help them out :E

D and F:8

A little bmi time

[HZ123]

By down grading the shorthall service levels (no club) and sourcing it as a locost there may well be a number of locations that will not have an early morning departure to LHR. The objective is to curtail as much as possible night stoping crews from and to LHR. I still feel that with the AA-IB-BA link up plus all the numerous problems, OS may well be too late on the block. I hope to be proved wrong but BA's record with projects is not the best, but OS has been very good for the retired league of gentlermen and old pals.

[Re-Heat]

Curtailing nightstopping would entail hiring local crews in European bases. Openskies strategy Mk2?

[Skipness One Echo]

How do you exactly know it makes money? Remember the numbers of bums on board does not mean it makes money!

Historically the early Shuttles were so busy they had a spare B737 to back the B757 up. So on a Monday morning instead of 2 B757s and a B737 back up they're down to a single A321 to catch the punters heading into town to start the working week. It was a high yield, high volume business route, not so much anymore. And yes, BMI WILL do well here I have no doubt.
Of course in those days GLA was a crew base with B757 drivers heading south to fly short haul from LHR so there was some flexibility in BRITISH Airways. If they can't be arsed to night stop a crew to hold onto a *loyal* passenger base then God help them. I don't want to fly on a low cost domestically, I always choose BA where possible.

[Re-Heat]

And now they have 3x daily from GLA to LCY. Think about it.

[CabinCrewe]

isnt it 4x daily GLA-LCY.....

[Walnut]

I still find it hard to find the rational for the OS concept in these difficult times. Management at BA seems to be spending all its time (see last 3 weeks of BA News) on this minor part of its business, BA needs £25Mpd revenue just to stand still and at best OS is going to generate .3% of this sum!! if it operates full?
The only way any airline is going to survive, say $150 Oil, is by using the most fuel efficient a/c and charging the right price for the service. At present an OS a/c is costing about $ 75,000 round trip on fuel, thats a huge amount to be shared by a small number of pax.