Ways to get there... [Archive]

rikesh

18th Jun 2008, 18:55

OK, you'll probably think this is just another post on an already over-asked question - so hopefully after reading this, you will see that I have researched and read a lot before posting.

My aim is to become a commercial airline pilot. I come from an average financial background, but I don't think that should stand in the way. I have just about finished my first year at college, doing AS-Levels: Further Mathematics, Physics, Economics, Electronics.

I have drawn up three ways of 'getting to the top':

1. Join the RAF. Then, after 14 years (minimum service), apply for airlines.

2. Complete A-Levels, then do modular training towards an fATPL while keeping my part-time job to pay for it. Possibly take out a loan to assist, depending on the actual costs. Then, apply for airlines.

3. Complete A-Levels, then do a university degree. Do modular training (either during degree or afterwards). Then, apply for airlines.

By the way, integrated training is not an option since I'd never be able to afford it.

My opinion on these:

1. I have ruled out joining the royal air force for many reasons.

2. I think it is unwise to choose not to have a degree, as a fall back and also airlines would probably appreciate someone with a degree than someone without one (?)

3. I am convinced this is the right path for me. So, the question has become: what degree to take?

I have looked into the various Aviation-related w/pilot studies degrees. The problem is, a few teachers have given me strong advice that these are 'mickey mouse degrees' (?) No offence intended to anyone, but is this true? Hopefully you know what I mean.

So, I could just do a standard degree (like Maths). Either way, I would have to fit training in somehow. Now is it possible to do modular training whilst doing a uni course? Or would I have to wait and then begin training afterwards.

I have also come across CTC Wings - where if you are selected, they pay for your training and expect you to pay back over time. Are there any other schemes like this? And what is the flexibility - again, would I have to do the training after the degree? This would mean I could only begin my application towards the final year of my uni course (?)

I appreciate this is a fairly long post, so thank you for taking the time to read it. I would like as many comments/suggestions as I can get...so fire away!

Regards

jb2_86_uk

18th Jun 2008, 19:30

Hi Rikesh.

From your 3 options, personally I would choose number 3!

Having a degree to 'fall back on' is a very wise move in the current climate. As for the choice of what subject, think very carefully! I feel as though I was pressured into choosing the course I took from several directions. Had I been strong enough at the time to resist, I believe I would have chosen differently. Regardless, I did not enjoy my time, which was reflected in my grades and ultimatley concluded in me cutting my studies short to persue other avenues. A few years later I am about to start an integrated course with nothing but experience in an industry I hate behind me - Such is my desire and will power to succeed now I am doing something that I want to do!
The point I am trying to make with the above waffel, is that it may be a 'micky mouse course' (Ive heard that phrase a lot!) but if it is a field you are pasionate about and have an interest in - it doesnt matter! The only disadvantge is that you are setting yourself into a niche career, rather than a Maths grad, or Mechanical Engineer :rolleyes: grad who can then work in any one of a number of fields.
Chose the course YOU want to do. Its your time spent studying and its your life to live!

As far as I am aware, CTC are pretty unique with their 'Wings' scheme, and just to be clear, you dont pay back the training costs. Your employing airline will do that - but you will be 'bonded' to them for several years at a lower salary (they keep that bit quiet). Despite that, it is a very lucrative deal, and as such, attracts a lot of interest - ie, they can afford to only pick the cream of the crop!

I hope to have answered some of your questions.

Shiver me timbers!

18th Jun 2008, 20:22

I'd go number 3 also.

A degree means you have backup in case something goes wrong. I agree with JB about degrees - do one you enjoy! Otherwise, you'll lose interest and it will show in your marks. I don't think there is much of an advantage from an aviation employment perspective with regards to which degree you do although an aviation one may potentially 'better prepare' you for the later stages of your training.

Whilst at university, you could join the RAF Air Squadron where you'll gain flying experience there (not sure if you can fully complete your PPL with them but I'm sure someone more 'in the know' will confirm this).

Either way, your first 2 years at university are fairly easy going so you could afford (time wise) to get a part time job and pay for PPL lessons as you go (1-2 per month seems reasonable). However, you'll have to be good at money management otherwise you'll have no chance [insert beer smilie :ok:]

There is no way you'll be able to get any further than PPL at Uni - the final year is a challenge and you'll want to work as hard as possible to get a good classification (otherwise there's no point in going in the first place).

After this, get a graduate job and continue to fund your PPL. Then, if you're enjoying it and know it's for you, get a class 1 medical and begin to study for the ATPLs / hour build.

Food for thought - a degree isn't the be all and end all. You could simply get a job at the bottom (99% graduates start here anyway) and work you're way up. There are loads of people here who've done this.

Good luck - p.s. I know everyone says it, but you'll have the time of your life at uni.

Nashers

18th Jun 2008, 20:38

dont bother about the RAF flying or anything like that if you intend to go commercial as ive been told that the hours dont count to your civilian future.

option 3 is the best and the way i did it.

finish a degree but if you find somthing other that avaiation that your intrested in go for that as otherwise your options are restricted. if i were you i would not bother about flying until you finish university. only reason is if your only doing one of two lessons a month you are likely to take more hours to finish as you get rusty between lessons.

finish your ppl then go back into university for ATPLs. they are hard but you should be able to work weekends during the whole thing (including university and ppl). ive been working throughout my studying and had no problems other than never having time to myself! you may also want to be doing some hours during the weekends as well to stay current.

once your done with your ATPLs finish your hours building. ofcourse there is no problem working through that.

when it comes to the CPL, ME, IR its best to make sure you have enough money in the bank to compleate them one at a time without taking a break as otherwise again you will prob need more hours.

Shiver me timbers!

18th Jun 2008, 21:32

Nashers - valid suggestion about waiting until after uni (that's what I've done although I only properly caught the bug during my second year).

However, you know what its like when you have the urge to get going. Rikesh, if you do chose to have the odd lesson here and there and it does result it taking more hours to complete the PPL than the average, I wouldn't worry as it all counts in the hour building stage anyway.

XL319

18th Jun 2008, 22:43

I think if someone wants to be a pilot, doing a degree is lunacy...you do not need a degree to be a pilot. Leeds Uni and other various organisations charges fee's to do a degree but it means little when it comes down to it.

What you should focus on IMO is the PPL, Night, ATPL Exams, CPL/MEP and IR exams and go that way rather than a degree. Those exams will take up just as much of your time as your uni exams and you will not get much if any credit for your uni degree.

A degree (depending on the subject) will however will open other doors if you decide piloting is not for you.

P.S. for what it's worth

preduk

19th Jun 2008, 00:02

I done option 3 also...

For those that believe that a degree isn't required to become a pilot, you are correct, but it's not the purpose of the degree. The degree is used for two things, first of all help you stand out from the crowd and second of all help you achieve a backup plan if the industry collapses or if you have a medical/personal/financial problem.

I believe the Airline degrees are a complete waste of time and effort, the main purpose of the degree is a back up so why would you do a degree in the exact same area?

I done a degree in Law, don't regret it.

rikesh

19th Jun 2008, 19:22

Firstly, thanks for all your replies.

jb2_86_uk I agree with your advice to choose a course which I would enjoy. Of course, the thing I would enjoy the most would be to learn to fly (hence a degree with pilot studies), but preduk has confirmed my concerns about the actual usefulness of the course. I am considering a degree in maths or similar area (yes I'm a geek I enjoy maths).

XL319 I would have thought, with the competitiveness of the aviation industry today, that having a degree would benefit you over someone who doesn't? True, most airlines do not state a degree as necessary - but it is not a question of getting the bare minimum (which for certain airlines would be 5 C grades at GCSE along with the ATPL). Am I right?

David UK So just to make sure: regardless of uni course, I would not really have time to do a few hours a week towards PPL and afterwards CPL etc? Putting in a few hours a month is something I would never do.

Nashers I do not plan on going anywhere near the RAF. But I have doubts as to whether they would allow me to join a squadron and train for PPL with absolutely no intention to fly for the RAF. David UK?

Another question I have is this: with the current A-Levels I am studying, and if I were to take a maths degree also..would this make my educational qualifications seem very one-sided? I.e. almost all the higher qualifications I would have are based upon maths. It is not very balanced.

Would this be looked upon unfavourably by the airline industry - or generally in any industry?

Once again, I appreciate your replies.

jb2_86_uk

19th Jun 2008, 19:46

I dont know much about how airlines would view specific degrees (if they would view different ones diferently at all) - I am very much a fresh-out-of-the-box newbie, but...

If you are wanting to do a serious degree (ie, non micky mouse) how about something like Aeronautical Engineering? It will include lots of aviation stuff to keep you interested, is an engineering based degree (obviously a wide genre and a very respectable degree) and it will make the most of your maths and physics studies. I have seen in some prospectusus/prospectus'/ prospectii (???) one of their projects was to design a plane! cool!

I wouldnt worry about your studies all being maths based! - its quite an important subject - all your displaying (assuming good grades :p) is that you have mastered it!

Good luck with whatever you do anyway!

BerksFlyer

19th Jun 2008, 19:51

rikesh,

I doubt anyone in the airline industry will look into your non flying qualifications in such detail as to say that you're too one sided. You've found something that you're good at and you're making the most of it by getting the highest possible qualification with that strength. No one can fault you for that.

With regards to XL319's comment's, what he's saying is that having a degree won't help to get a flying job. There are much more important things to airlines than your education. Having exemplary results throughout your education doesn't mean you'll be a suitable pilot for example. What a degree will help you with however is giving you a decent fall back should you lose your medical (it happens), or lose your job when the industry goes through a downturn (aviation suffers very badly in economic downturns). It may also give you valubale life experience, though it is argued that the same life experience could be found through working for 3 or 4 years full-time.

If you did a good degree (like maths) and then got a job with that degree, you could fund your training with your spare earnings. Having done all that no airline could fault your motivation or dismiss you as not yet mature enough.

Another thing to consider is, if you are an academic, you should capitalise on that and get as high a qualification as you can. Not everyone is gifted with academic ability, so if you are I reckon you should embrace it; it can do no harm.

rikesh

20th Jun 2008, 18:15

jb2_86_uk I am considering this. Hopefully the uni open days will give me a bit more guidance, but right now its between mathematics and an engineering-based course.

BerksFlyer I was reading the airline survey by GAPAN (http://www.gapan.org/careers/survey.htm) and it does seem to back up what you have said - education only ranked 7 out of 10 most important things considered by an airline when recruiting. However, I want to achieve as high educational qualifications as I can because, as you said, I can. It will only benefit me.

Could someone please clarify, would I be able to complete at least a PPL or beyond during my university studies? Or is this a bad idea and I'd be better off waiting until after the course?

BerksFlyer

20th Jun 2008, 18:59

Seeing as you do ATPL theory after PPL, no you wouldn't be able to get any further than PPL at university. It would be far too much work and if you started studying ATPL theory during your degree, your marks for both would suffer. Just concentrate on getting a PPL (it's probably better to do it before going to university) then while doing your degree build hours. You need to build 150 hours to do a CPL, so you may aswell make the most of your 3 years at university flying-wise and fly on weekends and spare days. That ensures that upon graduating, you can pretty much go straight onto the CPL without having to do loads of hours building.

Try the university air squadron. If you don't want to join the RAF, they don't have to know that. If you get a PPL before going to university, they will know you're serious about flying and you'll be ahead of the rest of the people wanting in. It should give you an advantage getting in and the UAS could save you a hell of a lot of hours because the free hours will count towards the 150 needed.

rikesh

22nd Jun 2008, 10:31

OK. About getting a PPL before university, I live in Leicester so the closest place to fly is Leicestershire Aeroclub. If I were to choose this school (not saying that I will because it needs a lot of thought, of course) - but let's say I did and completed a PPL there.

Then I go on to university and fly a few hours (hopefully in the UAS) whenever I can. After completing a degree, I choose a flight school to do the remaining hour-building and a CPL etc, in modular form. Whilst in a job to pay for training.

When I am eventually awarded an ATPL, I start applying to the airlines. The question is: with my licences having been done at various places throughout the UK, would this show any inconsistency from the airlines' point of view? I've always thought it would be better to do all training at one school. I hope this is not the case?

BerksFlyer

22nd Jun 2008, 14:08

It's best to do all your advanced training at one school. So that means CPL ME IR. It won't matter one jot where you did your PPL, because that's not even a professional licence. ATPL theory, again it doesn't matter because some decent places that do it don't even do flying (like Bristol Ground School).

Shiver me timbers!

22nd Jun 2008, 15:00

Rikesh - in your first 2 years you would have time to do a couple of hours flying per week definitely. The only problem with this is funding it - 2 hours per week @ £130 = £260 per week. If you already have the money then go for it ... but you won't have time to work in order to save that amount.

I'm not really in a position to be offering career advice with regards to maths a-levels and degrees. However, as a guess I'd say that a maths degree would open lots of avenues down the road and wouldn't leave you unbalanced. Then again, if I were you I'd go and speak to a careers adviser (about maths - they tend not to know too much about aviation careers). There should be one at your school/college.

Nashers

22nd Jun 2008, 15:49

rikesh

yes as others have said you should be able to do you ppl during your first year of university and do some hours building during your whole course.

saying that however there are a few other points you need to remember. if you do intend to do some hours building during your university, you will have a maximum of 105 hours (after you finish your ppl) to do. now if you dont mind going over 150 hours before you start your CPL then there is no problem, but if your budget does not allow, you are very likley to finish your hours building before your degree, THEN go into the ATPLs. it will take you 2 years to compleate your hours building if you only do 1 hour a week so you will have about a year of no flying plus the time you to your ATPLs.

you will have a long time from when you last flew to when you start your cpl so would be very rusty. also if you can only fly 1 hour a week or so your flying would be limited to your local area. i have been told airlines like to see cross countrys in your log book.

the best advise i could give you is do it the way i did as it worked great for me. finish university, do a ppl then go into your ATPL theory. while there you can do a couple of hours a weekend. you will finish your ATPLs with about 50-60 more hours to do so you can do nice long flights to pleanty of great airfields around the country. as soon as you finish your hours building start you CPL and the rest.

by doing it this way and doing alot of hours together closer to when you passed your ppl your less likely to pick up bad habbits and remember the way you were shown by the instructor. also it will help you with your cpl as you would be very current so no rusty bits.

Shiver me timbers!

22nd Jun 2008, 16:42

I'll second Nashers advise above - the most realistic situation (if you go to Uni) is to complete your PPL afterwards along with the ATPLs & hour building etc...again, this is unless you have a guarantee of £5-7k to complete the PPL whilst at Uni.

There is no rush to complete training. Don't get bogged down reading too many stories about 18/19 year olds flying with airlines - this is very rare.

GS-Alpha

22nd Jun 2008, 17:16

Getting a degree is never a mistake as long as it is a decent course, from a decent establishment, and you achieve a decent result. Many of my friends who went straight into flying, seriously regret not going to university first. You have your whole life to be a pilot; the degree will simply mean you start three or four years later, and yet it will give you something to fall back on if you lose your medical or whatever.

I do not recommend doing anything aviation related, unless that is the kind of job that you would like to do if you end up without a career as a commercial pilot.

As for worrying about being too specialised in one subject - that is the whole idea of a degree. Personally, I did close to six years of Physics. I do not use those qualifications at all now, and I have probably forgotten more than I knew in the first place. However, I would not miss out any of my university time even if I had the chance to go back and make my decisions all over again with the advantage of hindsight.

XL319

22nd Jun 2008, 22:49

I did a degree in Law but this means absolutley nothing with regards to flying! It does however open many doors if flying caves in etc etc!!!

I feel that a flying related degree would hinder any progres in other field if the aviation world went down.

smith

23rd Jun 2008, 06:35

2. do modular training towards an fATPL while keeping my part-time job to pay for it

Definately take this route, a part-time job that can fund all this flight training should not be packed in. Keep this part-time job and get your ATPL. Even getting graduate employment would not pay as much as this.

rikesh

23rd Jun 2008, 20:58

Good, that means I can make a decision on where to do my PPL based purely on convenience and quality of school - rather than thinking about the ATPL situation as well.

Looks like it is a better idea to wait until after uni before starting a PPL. barké I could never consider 'dropping out of uni' - hope you don't mind me disagreeing, but I commit to everything I do.

smith No need to be sarcastic?

I doubt I'd have funding for much flying during uni, but I could still apply for the UAS right? I think it would be better to concentrate on the degree, then concentrate on the flight training afterwards. I don't like the idea of having large gaps between flying - especially at an early stage of learning.

David UK So true about the careers advisors not knowing much about aviation jobs.

rikesh

1st Jan 2011, 16:52

Thought I would resurrect this thread and let you know how I'm getting on. Not that anyone's interested (but I'd like to think someone out there will benefit from reading this!)

So, during my second year of college (A-level finals 2009), I began training for my JAA PPL at Leicestershire Aeroclub. Meanwhile, I applied for a place on the Mathematics (G100) course at The University of Nottingham. As the year went by, flying went well and I was progressing through the PPL. College went well and I was offered a conditional place at Nottingham (among others).

Summer was lovely. A-level results arrived in August and I got my confirmed place at Nottingham. In September, after 3 cancellations for my Skills Test, I passed the PPL - with 5 days to spare before I moved to Nottingham.

Flying was being funded by part-time work. I'd like to offer my strongest recommendations for Leicester Airport. The rates are excellent (£122ph dual, C-152). Throughout my training, everyone I met was supportive and encouraging. During the year, I flew with almost every one of the 4-5 outstanding instructors (including the CFI). It is a great place to learn to fly and I would recommend it to anyone in the area.

In 2009, I was lucky enough to win an Air League scholarship which paid for my final 12 hours before the Skills Test. I'd like to take the opportunity to once again thank the Air League for their wonderful generosity in awarding this scholarship. The interview/selection process was a great experience and I met many interesting people from different parts of the country!

I am now in second year on the Maths course. Uni is incredible. I've learnt more in the last 2 years about life than I had ever done in my previous 18. Do not pass up the opportunity to go to uni - you will regret it.

I am still very much determined to become an airline pilot. My plan is to come out of uni with a respectable degree and enter into any well-paying full-time job for a few years. This is a question I want to ask: What jobs or sectors would you suggest?

All going well, I'll gather together enough cash to start training modular for the ATPL. Hopefully the industry (and economy in general) will have picked up in a few years. Maybe a UK airline will be brave enough to offer some kind of sponsorship?

Happy New Year! Let's hope 2011 marks the return of aviation success.

cyrilroy21

1st Jan 2011, 16:57

Perhaps you could try the cadetship with Cathay Pacific or

Etihad (now closed but expected to open again sometime next year )

:ok:

Poeli

2nd Jan 2011, 20:21

great to hear rikesh!
I'm dong kinda the same, I finish my bachelor this year and will start my PPL this year to get some hours in the 2 years i got left at college.
Keep this topic updateed;-)

M1ghtyDuck

3rd Jan 2011, 00:53

I think we have a lot of similarities my friend. Was your air league scholarship at Tayside in Dundee by any chance? I had a couple scholarships there through air cadets that got me 35 hours of my ppl.

That ppl I finished at Phoenix Aviation at Netherthorpe, near Worksop just north of Nottingham. (very cheap with no landing/membership/joining fees, and makes you excellent at landings - shortest licenced runway in the uk!) I mention that because I'm at Nottingham Uni too, in my third and final year of a physics degree.

I too have the eventual aim of being an airline pilot, although I have my heart set on doing some bush flying and similar first. I'll be starting my hour building and ATPL theory this summer after I graduate.

Drop me a pm if you'd like to meet up and chat in Nottingham once term starts. It's surprising how few pilots I meet in real life when there are supposedly thousands of qualified unemployed ones all over the place!

Jabiman

3rd Jan 2011, 02:16

It's surprising how few pilots I meet in real life when there are supposedly thousands of qualified unemployed ones all over the place!
As of 2008 there were approximately 17000 ATPL/CPL holders in the UK.
With a population of 61 million, you would have to meet 3588 people before you were statistically likely to meet an airline pilot.
Assuming that 20% of the 17000 are unemployed then your chances of meeting an unemployed airline pilot are one in 17941.

JCBeadle

4th Jan 2011, 09:47

Hi Rikesh! Glad to hear your doing well, and keep following the dream!

For me, I am currently doing option 2 -

2. Complete A-Levels, then do modular training towards an fATPL while keeping my part-time job to pay for it. Possibly take out a loan to assist, depending on the actual costs. Then, apply for airlines.

Well I havn't taken a loan out and don't plan to. I finished A Levels and have been in full time employment ever since, saving for my pilot training. And you know what, a bit of me says maybe I should have gone to Uni, but to be honest I still don't regret not going. I think things have changed over the years, and with soo many people comming out of uni waving their degrees in the air and not enough jobs to go round, I think really a degree is only worth doing if doing something specific like becomming a doctor, or a lawyer or a teacher.

By all means I agree that a degree is good to fall back on should things turn bad. But only if it's a degree that means something! Doing a degree in say television studies is not really going to do any favours for you. More employers now are really looking at what work experience you have had in sales or customer service etc. Plus think about the costs, the costs of doing a degree and then the pilot training is going to cost as much as an integrated course anyway.

At the end of the day, its up to the individual really in what they decide. I just wanted to put my version across to everyone, as quite a lot of people I know have either taken up the air force route, gone integrated, or went to uni.

Hope it goes well for you Rikesh!

FANS

4th Jan 2011, 14:09

Rikesh

You have taken a well balanced, methodical approach to your training so far.

A decade ago, this would still have been an excellent career choice for you, but I suspect the tide may have turned too much for you. If you're doing a maths degree, you're probably bordering on being a straight A student and I really question whether you will go down this career once you get sucked into a proper graduate role after your degree. It is not a question to answer now, as you will no doubt strongly object but let us know in another 2.5 years!

M1ghtyDuck

4th Jan 2011, 18:17

As of 2008 there were approximately 17000 ATPL/CPL holders in the UK.
With a population of 61 million, you would have to meet 3588 people before you were statistically likely to meet an airline pilot.
Assuming that 20% of the 17000 are unemployed then your chances of meeting an unemployed airline pilot are one in 17941.

I'm sure you realise I was joking, but for the sake of arguement you're not taking into account the likely demographic of those I meet. Very few of the one third of the 61 million population that are under 16 or over retirement age will have an ATPL for example ;) , and I assure you they don't make up much of a proportion of those I meet.

The people I do meet: those studying a maths/science/engineering course at uni like me, or those who frequent the airfields I fly at, however, I'm sure you'll agree are much more likely candidates.

rikesh

16th Aug 2012, 22:36

Here I am again with an update, regular as ever!

Perhaps you could try the cadetship with Cathay Pacific

I applied for this in 2011 and have heard nothing back!

Meanwhile, I went for the BA FPP but was eliminated at the assessment centre stage. Didn't realise there would be a Physics test! Passed everything else and met some great candidates. In hindsight, with all those who've been placed in a hold pool, I'm not sure failing at this stage (only £200 down) was such a bad thing.

A decade ago, this would still have been an excellent career choice for you, but I suspect the tide may have turned too much for you. If you're doing a maths degree, you're probably bordering on being a straight A student and I really question whether you will go down this career once you get sucked into a proper graduate role after your degree. It is not a question to answer now, as you will no doubt strongly object but let us know in another 2.5 years!

This hits the nail on the head. I will be starting a graduate job soon and many doubts are swirling through my mind. Do I spend the next few years saving and then spend £50k on modular ATPL training? Only to find myself in what has clearly become an employer's market.

I haven't been on these forums for a while, but a glance through the Interviews, jobs & sponsorship section tells me this:

There are many qualified, experienced pilots who cannot find work with airlines.
Those who have jobs are rewarded with low salary and increasingly unfair working conditions.
There is a growing culture of buying type ratings. Those with money can 'buy' their way into a job.

Alternatively, do I work in the graduate role, progress up the ladder etc and keep flying as a passion? Build up hours, get some ratings (Night, IMC) and enjoy it whilst earning far more than I would as an (unemployed) commercial pilot? The only issue with this being that I would be forever looking up at the sky, wishing I was there.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the working world is like. It is likely that my experiences in the next couple of years that will determine whether I go down the airline pilot route or not. But regardless, I will continue to fly and maintain my PPL.

As always, please post your thoughts. Regards.

4015

17th Aug 2012, 07:50

Interesting, isn't it, how at 17/18 we think we have to be on the flight deck by our early 20s and when we get to 20/21 we realise there is no real rush.

I'm glad, having seen your initial post, that you chose the direction you did. It is coincidentally the same path I took, albeit a couple of years ahead of yourself.

Whichever route you take you're going to do alright, and that's a nice feeling to have.

pilotnick07

18th Aug 2012, 19:56

Without going into too many details that may offend I'd simply say caution on CTC!!

If you are looking into them make sure you know EXACTLY what the terms of them "paying" for your training are. If there was a simple way to get training paid for and a "guaranteed" airline job at the end of it then every man and his dog would be doing it.

rikesh

15th Nov 2016, 20:56

4015 - couldn't agree more. Would love to hear your story, especially since it seems to be quite similar to mine!

I thought I'd post an update on how things have progressed in the last 4 years. If nothing else, it's a great way for me to look back and see how my direction has changed over time!

In Sep 2012 I started a graduate job in London. With it, came the joys, trials and tribulations of working in the corporate world. I've learned a massive amount about work, life and everything in between. It's also given me fantastic opportunities to travel and see more of the world. Whilst I can't call work a 'passion' in the same way as flying, it's certainly done me a lot of good and enabled me to continue funding my flying.

Per posts above, as time went on I certainly saw the benefits of continuing to climb the corporate ladder but struggled to find a compelling argument to jump off it and train to become an airline pilot. What I can see is an increasingly competitive and tightly regulated market that is becoming more and more difficult to 1) break into and 2) feel well looked-after by your employer. Coupled with the ca. £100k cost of training over 1-2 years and the possibility that any health issue could render my career obsolete - I just couldn't bring myself to take the gamble. Obviously these are just my opinions based on reading posts here, observing the industry and researching the job market - which isn't the same as actually working in the industry. What I've said may not resonate with everyone - indeed I hope it doesn't, or we'd have no airline pilots left! Although maybe then, airlines would be forced to bring sponsorship schemes back ;)

Anyway, at every opportunity I continued to rent aircraft from a few places:

- Leicester (which I have now stopped - PM if you're interested why)
- Bournemouth (Fly With Me Aviation - really good guy, hassle-free with no club overheads)
- Aeros Nottingham / Coventry (expensive but well equipped)

I've done some cool flying (albeit not as much as I'd have liked) - but kept myself current. I've crossed the channel a few times and visited some interesting places. Huge respect to Jersey for maintaining a lovely airport with friendly staff and great facilities, charging just £8 for a PA28 landing + overnight parking! I've done my Night Rating and a few hours of aerobatics, which were incredible. Can't wait to do more aeros!

After 4 years in London (or wherever the projects took me), I decided to make a change. I took a fancy to Berlin and moved there recently - I absolutely love it. If anyone knows how to go about renting aircraft in Germany, licence requirements, airfields in Berlin, any good contacts over there, etc. please give me a shout?

In terms of next steps with regards to flying, what I'd like to do is:

- First and foremost, continue flying. Whenever and wherever possible. It's still an uncomparably magic experience that I never want to let go.
- Build up hours and experience; aerobatics, perhaps IMC.
- I would like to instruct. Every time I take friends/family up, I find myself inadvertently teaching them the basics and they love it. I want to pass on the gift of flying and, now that PPL Instructor Ratings are possible, one day I would like to achieve that.

During this time, I've never stopped visiting PPRuNe (certainly a lot more often than I post). Massive thanks to the many posters, from whom I have gained more and more aviation knowledge on each visit. I will make a promise to myself to post more often from now on. I can't just keep taking ;)

As always, please post your thoughts!

Mickey Kaye

16th Nov 2016, 06:08

2.

Why leave uni with 40 plus grand worth of debt? You could have a CPL/IR for that price.

Get flying and if it all goes south eg you loose your medical then go to Uni.

jamesgrainge

16th Nov 2016, 11:50

Your path is proof for some flying is just an enjoyable past time, and rightly so, and for others it is something we can't go without.
However, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for not training as an airline pilot.

Why? Because it leaves a seat open for someone who really wants to be there, and keeps training costs down for he ones of us who need to make the investment. Thankyou.

jamesgrainge

16th Nov 2016, 21:15

No cynicism, genuinely grateful. Means one less person for me to fight against for the first job 👍🏻. Totally agree though, at 28 I now know which side my breads buttered on. Doesnt necessarily make me a better pilot, however, it does make me roughly 100,000 times more determined than I would have been at 18.

Jaair

18th Nov 2016, 20:07

SeventhHeaven

18th Nov 2016, 21:37

Jaair, I 100% agree with your opinion.

But, being on the other end of the equation, I'm looking at flight training as a very expensive lesson indeed!

I was desperate about flying, completed my training with flying colours and .. nadda really. I'm happy with my life, and found myself a lovely wife, but the amount of money I spent on flying sure would come in handy now that's we're saving up for a house! I don't regret it, but I do feel guilty about postponing my (wife's) life by at least another 5 years. Tough pill to swallow really :)

KayPam

19th Nov 2016, 00:47

May I just recommend that you, OP, think very hard before choosing aeronautical engineering as your major.
Try to think about a field that will give you a job, and a well paid one

Edit : posted too fast... Hope this advice will be useful to somebody else

PolomDrastiz

26th Dec 2023, 16:03

Where is there true success and happiness without risk?

Just the thought of the likely possibility of looking back at my life and thinking "what if I tried" makes my stomach turn a little!

I will try; if I succeed (happy with my job and life) then great. If I don't succeed or I end up being miserable as a pilot then very well, it was an expensive lesson. But I tried.

A lot of people, who originally were crazy about flying, decide to take the safe route and avoid aviation as a whole. I cannot bare the thought of spending the rest of my life working in an office 9-5, taking the same train everyday with the same miserable commuters, looking out of our one office window at the jet contrails and thinking "what if".

That's just life, you'll always have regrets, the ones who don't simply don't because of their mindset and attitude towards rumination and regret. If you want to find something to regret you'll find something, if you don't want to find regret you wont find regret .

Also don't be so silly, people who are retired don't get happiness from reminiscing. Humans are too preoccupied by the present, they're focusing on their deteriorating health and try to focus on reaping what they sowed in terms of relationships and enjoying the fruits of their labour with regards to raising a family.

paco

27th Dec 2023, 06:49

Just a thought - I always advise a backup as something like an electrician or plumbing qualification (especially electrician as it is somewhat relevant). Such jobs can be picked up and dropped quickly and you will likely earn way more money. Also get a language.

Don't worry too much about the backups - concentrate on the main focus.

rikesh

17th Jan 2024, 07:29

Hi all,

After recently receiving an incredibly inspirational PM from a forum member, I am posting another update. Thank you, PolomDrastiz, for your truly touching message.

It's been over seven years since my last update and a lot has changed, both privately, professionally and in the wider aviation world.

After moving to Berlin, I visited the local airfield Flugplatz Schönhagen EDAZ and registered with the FTO Flugschule Hans Grade, where I received a friendly welcome. Getting up in the air was relatively straightforward, as at the time, UK CAA licences were still part of EASA. Local radio traffic was primarily German, but English was accepted and spoken fluently by ATS too. The biggest challenge was not understanding RT that wasn’t directed at me. With the help of local immersion – but without language lessons – it took me about a year to reach German level B2 and then another 18 months to reach C1. I never did the RT German proficiency test, nor did I switch RT language. It always helps to understand the local RT, but I preferred to have one less thing to think about when flying. Despite this, learning German helped immensely in integrating and I can only echo the advice of many others who have invested time in learning the language of the country they are moving to, even if it might be possible to “get by” with English.

With all the excitement of moving to a new country, starting a new job (requiring travel almost every week), making new friends and building a new life, plus the cost, journey time and weather-induced cancellations of flying, flying took a back seat. I made it out to EDAZ a few times, but not as much as I’d have liked to. Still, I kept the licence and medical current.

Somewhere towards the end of 2019, the Mensa club set a deadline of end 2020, after which UK nationals would no longer have the automatic right to move and work freely across the EU. I’d spent some incredible years in Berlin, but I fancied trying another EU country further south before the iron curtain came down. COVID hit and everyone was suddenly working from home. It was the perfect time to plan a new chapter in Spain.

I moved as soon as it was feasible to do so, amid flight cancellations, government office closures, restrictions and general difficulty of getting anything done during COVID. With just under three months to sort out accommodation, residency and everything else in between, I just about had time to swap my UK driving licence for an ES one. Sadly, I didn’t manage (or even realise) that a similar process was required to swap a UK-issued PPL for an EASA member state one.

Fortunately, PPRuNe had it covered and a forum member, S-Works (Steve) introduced me to his FTO, Fly in Spain, based in Jerez (LEJR). I booked myself in for an EASA PPL conversion course, provided all documents in advance and paid the reservation. All very efficient and friendly. Upon arrival and during the 4-day course, there were several additional exams/requirements that weren’t previously planned for by the admin team (RT, medical, English proficiency (!), …), that added to the stress, but ultimately, we managed to get it all done. The instructors and examiner/CFO were excellent – huge credit to Meinte, Rick and Steve in particular. The aircraft were in decent condition and when one was grounded, another was available for us to use, so the fleet wasn’t overstretched that week. The airfield and local flying conditions are amazing, with a combination of stunning views, sunshine and controlled airspace to keep you on your toes. I completed the conversion course with fond memories and a slightly bruised bank balance :D and am now the proud holder of both UK and EASA licences, as this “conversion” route allows you to retain both.

Since moving to Spain, life has taken a series of incredible turns, including getting married, starting a beautiful family, learning to speak fluent Spanish and launching a business. I haven’t been able to fly as much as I’d have liked, but looking back, I don’t regret a single moment of my journey. I have travelled to incredible places, celebrated huge (and small) moments and feel completely fulfilled. I love flying and will always do so – but I am happy for it not to be the centre of my life.

Next steps in terms of flying are to make use of the EASA licence, especially given the amount of sunshine and work towards becoming a stronger, more competent and more experienced pilot.

Best wishes to all PPRuNe members and readers. Comments, suggestions and questions are always welcome.

African_TrouserSnake

20th Jan 2024, 10:05

I chose options 3 on purpose. Got a university degree and worked in that field for a couple of years, gaining experience and paying my modular courses out if the salary. It is perfectly possible, if you have patience and are able to reduce your expenses to a minimum.

Less than a year after obtaining the fatpl I got the chance to fly for an airline, debt free and even with some savings.

Never regretted the path I took, it took me 2 years longer than my integrated peers, but I am still glad that there’s always something to fall back on; not only a degree, but a degree with corresponding working experience.

Can happily advise the same route to all the young guys just coming from high school. In the worst case you don’t ever get a job in the cockpit. But atleast you will be able to have the career and life that you would have, if aviation didn’t exist.

rudestuff

20th Jan 2024, 13:00

I have drawn up three ways of 'getting to the top':

1. Join the RAF. Then, after 14 years (minimum service), apply for airlines.

2. Complete A-Levels, then do modular training towards an fATPL while keeping my part-time job to pay for it. Possibly take out a loan to assist, depending on the actual costs. Then, apply for airlines.

3. Complete A-Levels, then do a university degree. Do modular training (either during degree or afterwards). Then, apply for airlines.

From 2008, the OP is probably a retired TRE by now!

1. Like scholarships and sponsored schemes, great if you are one of the 0.01% who get in.

2. The most realistic option. If you can hold down a day job, an evening job and a weekend job for a couple of year whilst living at home then you'll never have an issue with money or work ethic.

3. Great if you can afford it. Unnecessary for a pilot career and expensive - Fees plus living expenses for 3 years is more expensive than fATPL training part time over 3 years. To put it another way, if you can afford to go to university you can afford flight training.