Sunderland Flying Boat

[whirlwind]

I'm looking for some interior photos of a Sunderland, to go with a little family history thing I'm writing (my mother flew from Lagos Nigeria, via the Belgian Congo, Uganda and the Sudan, to Cairo in one in 1941). Can anyone help? It would have been an RAF flying boat, but it would be nice to compare it with a civilian version (if there was any difference).

A colleague who was on the same trip wrote in her diary: "The seats were very comfortable, easily adjustable by hand levers at either side and cushioned with pneumatic pillows. Each seat had straps and rugs, and an adjustable table with a foot rest beneath it. The positions obtainable merely by pulling or pushing the hand levers ranged from upright, for reading and eating, to half-horizontal, which was ideal for sleeping. The aircraft was arranged on 3 levels. The tail section, where most of the luggage was stored, contained 2 rows of 3 seats, which were the only ones where smoking was allowed. 3 steps down was the main cabin, with the first exit door, and 8 more seats. down another step was a smaller cabin, with 2 bunks, wide enough for 2 people to lie on each, head to tail. then came a short passage, with the galley on 1 side and 2 lavatories on the other. Finally the forward cabin, and purser's office, which contained the second exit door, 3 or 4 more seats and an iron ladder, leading aloft to the flight deck. The ventilation throughout could be controlled by regulating small 'blowers' set at intervals along the cabin 'ceiling'. The general colour scheme was a pale green, and everything was beautifully clean and orderly"

Thanks, WW

[treadigraph]

Whirlwind that sounds a bit plush for a RAF Sunderland, sounds like it may have been an ex-Imperial/BOAC Short Empire or similar?

[S'land]

Are you sure about it being a Short Sunderland? Imperial Airways and then (from 1939) BOAC operated a mail service from Poole to Lagos and Calcutta using Short C-Class “Empire” Flying Boats. These, according to my father who flew back to England from India in early 1939, were very luxurious.

In 1942 BOAC bought six Sunderland Mark III's which they modified as mail carriers. These were operated jointly with the RAF on the Poole - Lagos – Calcutta route. These aircraft had very primitive accommodation for seven passengers. I believe that there were no sleeping berths, only seats.

Later, I believe that it was in 1943, they BOAC operated a more sophisticated version of the Sunderland Mark II, the Short Hythe. This had better accommodation for up to 24 passengers, including 16 sleeping berths. BOAC operated 29 Short Hythe's.

For interior shots of the C-Class the following web pages are interesting:
http://www.seawings.co.uk/empwalkgal.htm
http://www.imperial-airways.com/Interiors_s23_promenade_saloon.html
http://www.imperial-airways.com/Interiors_s23_forward_saloon.html
http://www.seawings.co.uk/empiregal.htm (http://www.seawings.co.uk/empiregal.htmG) General photographs of Empire boats

For Sunderland interior shots:
http://www.seawings.co.uk/SunderlandDUXFORD-WRgal.htm
http://www.seawings.co.uk/SunderlandHENDON-WRgal.htm

I do not know of any interior shots of the Sunderland Mark III conversions or of the Hythe's – but would be very interested to see some.

[Warmtoast]

Whilwind

For a bit of nostalgia about a trip in a Short C Class flying boat (the Caledonia) from Poole to Rangoon in 1940 see the thread here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48484&highlight=flying+boat

[On-MarkBob]

Kermit Weeks has one at the 'Fantasy of Flight' between Orlando and Lakeland in Florida. It's a bit tatty but you can certainly get the idea of how it used to be, yes you are allowed inside. Take a holiday to Orlando and go visit, well worth the experience!

Bob.

[S'land]

If I remember correctly the model at Fantasy of Flight is a Short Sandringham. This was a conversion from a Sunderland to a civil flying boat. I do not think that the Sandringham was in service in 1941. I thought that they were all post-war conversions. There are also Sandringhams at the Solent Museum in Southampton and at Le Bourget.

[stilton]

Currently reading a superb book on the subject, 'Corsairville' a few pics in there, available through Amazon.

[whirlwind]

Astounding photos - thanks S'land.

I'm not sure that it was a Sunderland; I am going on what my Mum always said (she's no longer with us to ask) and I assumed it was an RAF boat, because she was a Flight Officer WAAF at the time.

There is no mention of the type in the 71-page account of the journey from Liverpool to Cairo (the first part was by ship to Lagos), but it's a fascinating story of how how some 28 WAAF pioneers joined Middle East Command. There is mention of the BOAC office in Lagos though, so I think PPrune has come up trumps again. The C Class photos look exactly right...

Cheers, WW

[andycap]

I add my thanks for the great pics, for it is I (whirlwind's brother in Oz) who is beefing up the account of our mother's journey for family record purposes with a bit of historical bling! The aircraft looks to have been an Empire Short S23 Mk 1 and enthusiasts may be interested in the 1/10 scale flying model built in Queensland described at this site:

http://www.airwaveyachts.com.au/Aircraft/Index.html

The photo of the boat on Hinze dam looks disconcertingly real. And so do some of the antics that the builder has put the model thru.

Now, all I need to find out is the name of the actual flying boat my mother flew in...( dep Lagos 1/9/41 arr Cairo 5 days later, flown by a Capt Bellin)

andy

[renfrew]

It's unfortunate that the scale of BOAC operations during the war is not appreciated and no really comprehensive history has been published.

[Corsairoz]

Here is a photo of the Upper deck of our Sandringham at Solentsky Museum in Southampton, UK. she was origninally built as a 1943 Sunderland III. I took it about 2 weeks ago, come along and you can explore her to imagine the era.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/corsairoz/SH100585.jpg

It sounds to me like the original post was describing a much more luxurious C-Class. They were in use throughout the war as passenger planes and were, of course kept as clear as possible from any hostilities.

Cheers
Trevor

[renfrew]

According to "Adventurous Empires" the luxury fittings were gradually partly replaced by austerity bench seats.
The main fleet was moved to S.Africa in 1940 and maintained the Horseshoe Route,Durban/Cairo/Singapore/Sydney,later terminating at Calcutta.

[thetexpat]

FYI, there is a Solent III living at Oakland Int'l Airport (KOAK/OAK), California in the care of the Oakland Aviation Museum. Has an interesting history including service with BOAC!

http://www.westernaerospacemuseum.org/museum/solent/solent.html

Cheers,
thetexpat

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Fabulous photos S'land. It's a bit like doing a jigsaw, you find a detailed bit and then have to look at the full picture to find where it fits. :ok:

[S'land]

Thanks for the comment about the C-Class photographs Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!, but I cannot claim any credit for them as I only found them while searching for photographs of my favourite aircraft.

Whirlwind/Andycap: Is there any chance of us hearing any of your mother's story about her flight? I for one would be very interested.

[andycap]

S'land

Is there any chance of us hearing any of your mother's story about her flight?

Yes there is. Gimme a couple of weeks while I lick the account into shape. We would be happy to share the flight part (the "Horseshoe" route I think) with the PPRuNe provided it's OK with the author. This is actually not my mother but one of the WAAF girls she was posted with to the Middle East Command in Cairo; the story is an extract from her wartime diary. She would have to be close to 90 and I'm checking with her now...

andy

[Warmtoast]

Although not strictly relevant. ISTR that in 1941 BOAC also operated a landplane service between Takoradi in West Africa and Cairo with Lockheed Lodestars. Reputedly they had 12 aircraft on strength based at Cairo.

[Old Hairy]

S'land,thank you for posting the link.Its my favourite aircraft of the 27 I flew,although I never saw one that pristine;)
I converted at Calshot,Nov. 1949 and spent 2500 hours on type. If anyone wants a few stories of what it was like to be a God!! I would be happy to oblige:) Its an era of experience sadly never to be repeated.

[S'land]

OldHairy:

For me the C-Class Boats were special as I remember my father telling me about his one and only trip on one (From India to the UK) just before WWII. It has been a source of envy ever since that he flew on one and I never had the opportunity. I also find all of the variants of the these fine machines. Many years ago (about 25+) I had the opportunity to explore the Sunderland in the RAF museum at Hendon. The view from outside is incredible, but to be able to explore inside was fantastic.

I personally would love to hear what it was like flying them. The more information that I can gather on these superb aircraft the better.

[kevmusic]

Old Hairy, count me in! :ok:

[Old Hairy]

A Brief Resume

After basic training,Crew training on Wellington T10 at Swinderby,I completed 241 OCU Dishforth on Hastings and was posted to 24 Sqdn. Lyneham,bound for route flying. Whilst on end of course leave.I received a telegram telling me to report to 202 Sqnd.Aldergrove.Somewhat mystyfied on arrival I was informed my crew was to fly the "Bismuth" weather recce daily flights,whilst the remainder of the Squadron converted from the Halifax. After seven months,a posting arrived,No1 MRS St Mawgan ? No amount of explaining I was Transport Command achieved any result.You are now Coastal Command and you have not completed the appropriate OCU. Pissed off, I turned up at St Mawgan to find it was Lancasters,futher compounded by the fact that the postings would be Ballykelly or Kinloss. I hated N.I. and Scotland didnt appeal,but after prolonged bitching I was offered Sunderlands,with a posting to FEAF. I was happy to accept this,especially as the Old Man had been on boats with Imperial Airways at Southampton,and we lived at Hamble,just across from Calshot.

Sunderland OCU

Joining 235 OCU Calshot Nov. 1950 I was soon to find this was an entirely different world to that which I had been used to!
Just one crew.Informed we had to be on FEFBW by Jan 51.It was to prove a rapid transformation.
First week ground school. Not your average subjects! first lesson,How to splice a wire rope! taken by a hairy old matelot,who was not satisfied until all our tender hands ran with blood.[ Some 60 years later I can still splice a wire rope] second lesson.Flag Hoists,the nautical side of the training came thick and fast. After lunch,dinghy sailing,to understand deep nautical mysteries of tidal rips,tacking cross wind,down tide,up tide.To prove very necessary when trying to pick up the buoy on crowded mooring trots. And so it went ,the transformation to a combined Aviator/Sailor. At the end of the week we had our first visit to the aircraft.
Nautical traditions are strictly adhered to Captain is last to board the launch which takes you from the pier to the aircraft and first to disembark at the forrard door.The Sunderland is a twin deck aircraft and to run you thro the layout,on boarding, to the left anchor winch,twin 303's port and starboard fixed,pilots for the use of.Front turret,retrackable for mooring,twin 303's.right entrance to forrard wardroom,centre stairs to flight deck,far right Heads,with china flushing loo(engineers job to ensure header tank was full of seawater for flushing]. Thro wardroom,centre table two bunks,the galley,compared with other aircraft quite spacious,worktable fore and aft,twin primus stoves with oven,wash basin and plenty of stowage space.Opening hatches port and starboard for deployment of water drogues,centre ladder to flight deck.Next came the bomb room,two large hatches port and starboard which allowed the bomb racks to slide out under the wings.Plenty of space to stow internal carried bombs and/or baggage.Next came the aft wardroom,twin bunks,next port and starboard .5 machine gun platforms with opening hatches.Past these on stbd. side rear door[rarely used] port side workbench and vice,then up a catwalk to the rear turret,4x303's in a Fraser Nash turret. All doors are half hatches,you had to step over,in case of a hole in the hull,hopefully flooding could be contained in one compartment.
Coming forrard,steps up from the .5 platforms onto the radar deck,scanners uder each wing,outboard of 1&4 engines,throhatch,ladder back down to galley,radio and nav equipment port side,engineer stbd.over main spar,Nav to stbd, W/op to port ,behind Nav, Radar tent.centre stairs down to forrad door.Pilots port and stbd.Using the excellent internal views posted by S'land,you should be able to follow the walkround. Between the nav and w/op was a table,directly above the astro dome,which was also the access to the top of the fuselarge and the wings.Having had the conducted tour,we all assembled on the stbd. wing to be shown the apu[no trolley accs. on boats] refuelling points,yes you do your own refuelling.Its why you are taught flag hoists,T over E on the mooring mast to indicate to the skipper of the Cowes ferry to slow down,I am loading high explosives!!!
Now this next bit I am rather embarassed about. BLOODY SEAGULLS roost on the wings at night,nobody mentioned this,we we all wearing the old style flying boots with rubber soles,being a junior I was edging around the back to get a better view,when very gracefully I slid off the wing.It was like a skating rink.remember this was the Solent in November, as this was just a visit the launch was still there to take us back,he shot around to pick me up. Subsequently,when I raised the question why we were not warned,I was politely advised its a necessary learning curve,and anyway the staff have a raffle on which silly bugger will be the first!! Part and parcel of learning nautical ways.One hand for you,one for the boat.I now began to realize this was a somewhat different OCU!!

[S'land]

Old Hairy:

Excellent so far. I never realised that you needed so much nautical knowledge for the Boats. Navigation, understanding a bit about tides, etc. yes, but the rest of it I never even guessed at.

You mentioned that you qualified on a Wellington and then flew Hastings. Did you also get to fly the Lancaster that you also mentioned?

Please do not take offence, but I had to laugh at the idea of you slipping on the seagull sh!t.

More please.

[henry crun]

Old Hairy; I presume you were subsequently fairly careful where you put your feet doing broken float practice. :)

[Old Hairy]

S'land, Glad you liked it,we aim to please. Yes I did 94.35 in the Maritime Lancaster on course.
Henry, One did not proceed at a slow pace practicing Broken Float Drills:E I will tell you about it later.
Further episode tonite.

[Old Hairy]

Part Two.

Having completed the first week,we were advised due to weather ,the programme would be on an opportunistic basis.If the weather clamped,ground school,we had no letdown aids,we could get a cloud break from Tangmere and leggit at low level across the Solent,But Sunderlands dont really mix with fighters.The alternate was Pembroke Dock,but as the majority of training was to be circuits and alightings,it would be played by ear.
First Flight.
Going out in the launch,slightly misty,the Sunderland looked very big,very majestic,if you ingnored the oil stains and seagull crap! One circuit of the boat,checking it was still in one piece,along side ,Captain off first,the crew had two important first actions ,start the APU and get the boat on short slip .
The engineer would get out on top and lower a section of the leading edge,inboard of No3,which gave him a platform to stand on. Then using a rope starter,just like a lawn mower,he would start the APU [Vincent Black Shadow Motor Bike Engine] we now had 24v.
One crew member,usually a W/Op would wind back the front turret,errect the bollard and wind in the anchor chain,which would bring the strop up to the bollard.On one horn of the bollard fit the eye of a eight foot long rope,put the end thro the eye of the buoy strop,then figure of eight round the horns,unshackle the anchor chain and the aircraft wire strop ,which had to be stowed under the forward nav window.All very nerveracking with cold fingers,greasy wires,god forbid you should drop it in the oggin.Now on intercom advise Captain "On short strop". No's 1 & 4 engines started and when T's & P's were okay,stop the APU and button up.Sound S ... on the klaxon.bowman would unwind rope from bollard and shout clear,raising arm above head, pilot would carefully bring buoy down port side keeping clear of hull and float.Crew menber in galley would advise when buoy was clear of aircraft.Bollard stowed,front turret forward and locked,taxi out and start 2 & 3 Engines.
I n those days there was certainly less water traffic than now,but still plenty to keep an eye on.One assumes all sailing craft and small boats are manned by morons and given plenty of room.You are accompanied by a pinnace,like a mobile runway caravan ! which warns off craft that might be a problem,also keeping an eye out for debris.
Runup engines in pairs,equipment check and when ready line up into wind,advise pinnace and pre take-off checks and open up,MUST KEEP WINGS LEVEL if you dip a float at speed ,you will be sans float and you have problems,sixty knots on the step,ninety knots ease back lift off ,ease forward up to one hundred and ten and climb away.After that its like any other large aircraft,albeit rather slow! In fact almost stately
Our first trip with the instructor demonstrating stalls, steep turns and before we could have a go the weather started to clamp.So it was a demonstration alighting [Please note,One does not land a flying boat.One Alights} and he decided we could spend a couple of hours learning the art of mooring.
Mooring takes six crew members,two pilots,two bowmen and two crewmembers on drogues in the galley.You have to contend with tidal currents,can be running at six knots on Spring Tides,wind has quite an effect on the large fin,its possible to almost sail the boat. So whilst its always best to approach the buoy into wind due to other moored aircraft/vessels its not always possible.If you dont know what tidal current you are expecting ,hold off and observe effect on other boats,how are they laying to their moorings.Having chosen your approach,and most importantly your escape route in the event you miss the buoy,shut down inboard engines and start to approach countering tide/wind to bring the buoy just off the port bow. Up front ,the two bowman have retracted the turret,errected the bollard and placed a small ladder clipped on the portside, One bowman perches on the ladder,holding on with right hand,ready to grab the buoy strop with the otherhand. The other chap can if the pilot cocks it up,make a grab with a boathook.But its unweildy and rarely if ever used. Having put the buoy in the correct spot,the strop is grabbed ,held up,second bowman puts free end of rope strop thro strop eye,figure of eight round the bollard and shouts "Cut" There are other actions going on.It may be necessary to approach the buoy at a fair old rate of knots to stem the tide/wind.just prior to catching the buoy the drogues are streamed to cut the speed.if you dont,the buoy strop can pin the chap on the ladder ,and taking the strain of 30 ton of boat across your legs can be dangerous! We practised about six differing approaches until we were all happy we knew what we were doing.Then called it a day.
Alighting, landing if you must!. Day approaches like any other aicraft,flare reduce power,advantages,you rarely have short landing area's,you can nearly always land into wind.Problems,waves or swell,can quite easily deal with moderate amounts,but danger of porpoise, Must keep wings level until low speed to avoid losing a float. Night landings were another matter.No approach lights,no Vasi. Pinnace will anchor six little lite boats,about the size of a small rowing boat,in a line along the best path. He will patrol along the port side,you land on the stbd.side.Make a normal approach,at 500 feet throttle back, trim nose up up and sink on.Try to flare at night and if you misjudge,go in nose first!! remember you have little or no vertical reference, she will flip.Another nautical touch. You had to be able to read the running lights of other craft.Are they moored/ moving,which way.As this was the approach to two busy ports,Southampton and Portsmouth,plus ferries,tankers for Fawley,could be quite busy.Plus four active aerodromes ,So a lookout was always in the astrodome,keeping a lookout, advising the pilot.He also manned a searchlight when mooring at night to illuminate other boats and craft on approach to the buoy.
We completed ninety hours of training.sixty day,thirty night. Bombing,gunnery,convoy patrols,but a lot of circuit work and then we were ready for our final assessment

[S'land]

Old Hairy:
Great Stuff, keep it up.

A couple of videos that may be of interest.
The first has some very good shots of the inside of a Sunderland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsru2cxodFs

The second shows the Sunderlands on the Berlin Airlift sixty years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFH2OZD-TcU

[Old Hairy]

Part 3.
Airborne 8 Hour Evaluation.
18th Dec. dawned bright and clear, we were airborne by 0800,heading for the Western Approaches.The crew of eight,plus the Boss and three trappers.Im sure you have all endured these flights.We were put thro our paces .Emergencies and drills etc. All performed with no comment,just silently observed.Bombing.Gunnery,short OFE.then back to Calshot. I think even the quality of the meal served in transit was critically judged.Back at Calshot for several approaches,more emergencies,then the final approach.We knew we were in for the dreaded Broken Float Drill!!
A quick word of explanation. Should one be unlucky enough to lose a float for whatever reason comes the time you have to alight,and on stopping "Murphys Law" says you will fall on the wing sans float and capsize,ie. you turn turtle.So a drill was evolved whereby the entire crew,except the Captain and engineer assemble on the wingtip with a float forcing that down.The pinnace would position under the other wing,until help arrives. Did I hear you say simple enough?? Let me run you thro.
Touchdown.....".Broken Float Port" The W/Op seated next to the astro hatch,leaps up open hatch, grabs the end of a coil of rope permanently stowed and secured by the hatch and runs to the end of the starboard wing ,sits and pulls rope taut. He is followed by the rest of the crew,until all are seated on the wingtip....I forgot to mention.......the Captain must retain enough speed,around forty knots to have aileron effectiveness to hold wings level.You have to run 5 to 6 feet behind two Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasps.If you run too slow you will be blown off,too fast,can you stop? The wing is covered with the remains of seagull crap ....and its bloody December and its getting dark. Get the drift? During this the pinnace,who knows what going to happen runs behind to pick up any poor bugger who's gone "Oggin Bobbin".
We did okay. no one fell off.We taxied in,moored up refuelled and put the aircraft to bed,meanwhile the Boss and the Trappers left without comment.

The following morning we had a pre-planned visit to Saunders Roe at Cowes.We had the conducted tour of SRA 1 and the Princess Flying Boat.A big beautiful aicraft.The flight deck was huge.It was such a pity no suitable engines could be found. They were mothballed at Calshot for several years before being scrapped.After lunch on the Company,we returned to Calshot on the Pinnace to get exam results and final assessment.

We met with our respective examiners for a fairly detailed rundown on the evaluation flight.Points where we could improve,pithy comment.After all this was a jealously guarded exclusive band we were attempting to join!!
We then gathered in the main lecture room to be addressed by the Boss. I remember his remarks to this day..." Congratulations Gentlemen" You are now that enviable combination of Aviator and Sailor. You have reached Valhalla.The cream of His Majesty's Royal Air Force.Your efforts to complete this Course in a small amount of time are noteworthy,but you still have much to learn and We wish you well. You will now leave on 14 days embarkation leave before your posting to Far East Flying Boat Wing,Seletar ,Singapore.

It may be over dramatic,but I'll tell you anyway. Can you imagine my feelings?? I was 21 years of age,to quote my old English Master "I had reached the Acme of my Pinnacle"...the world was my oyster and.....I was a FLYING BOAT MAN.
Now entitled to have verdigre on my hat badge,walk with a roll and the final accolade. Spit to windward.
I can look out my lounge window,over Southampton Water to Calshot,see Calshot Castle,the old Sunderland Hangers,now a Activities Centre.Nearly sixty years have passed but gentlemen some things have not changed. I can still splice wire ropes read flag hoists,love that aircraft and still hate bloody seagulls!!!

S'land thanks for the links.Great stuff,will bookmark for my files.
Thats the end of conversion.Can pen some more of my time in the Far East If you like.Your call?

[S'land]

Old Hairy:

Many thanks for the story so far. You really did have the best of it. Not only did you get to fly some of the most fantastic aircraft (Wellington, Hastings, Lancaster), you flew Sunderlands and saw the Princess Flying Boat close up. I have only seen photographs and a couple of videos of the Princess. Agreed it was a shame that she did not go into service, but progress with land bound aircraft had already overtaken her.

If you were at Seletar, you were at the at the RAF base that saw the last operational flights for a number of aircraft (Singapore, Sunderland, Mosquito, Beuafighter). Were you there in the insurgency?

So, yes, more please.

[mustafagander]

Old Hairy,

I think you have quite a readership by now!! :ok:

Please continue your account of the delights of the big boats.

From my viewpoint you achieved an enviable combination of skills that I personally always wanted to bring together, given that I have been a yacht master and navigator as well as a professional aviator for many a year.

[Old Hairy]

So pleased you like the stories so far.Its my pleasure to recall my youth and yes I do think I flew some fantastic aircraft.All a result of being in the right place in interesting times. I went on to fly all three Shacks.Managed to have a nine year break from Coastal Command and flew all three V Bombers.Two Squadron tours and then a spell at Boscombe Down,before returning to St Mawgan for the conversion to Nimrod before hanging up my flying helmet.but back to the Sunderland.

Arriving at Changi,ironically in a 24 Sqdn. Hastings.The unit I was originally posted to.Via El Adem,
Habbaniya,Karachi Negombo and Butterworth.The crew was split three ways between the three resident squadrons,88,205 and 209. we only flew once again as a crew,Tourex, bringing a boat back to Pembroke Dock.
I was to join a crew consisting of all old hairy's,been on boats thro WWII and had "More time on boats than you have had hot dinners's lad" a phrase I was to hear often!! I did the neccesary thing ,tugged my forelock,stayed shtum and walked the regulation two paces behind the Skipper,with perhaps the occassional "Aye Aye'.

FEFBW's area of operations was vast,from the Maldives,Ceylon in the West,to Japan/Korea in the East.North to Hong Kong and South to the Christmas Isles. We carried out SAR for most of that area,although the USN was responsible for the Phillipines and Japan.The Wing carried out strikes in Malaysia against the Communists.Kept three boats at Iwakuni,rotated month and month about between the three squadrons.Flying Anti-Sub and weather recce for the two Carrier Task Forces east and west of Korea,plus anti shipping patrols on Tushima Straits between Korea and Japan. Anti Pirate patrols between N.Borneo and Southern Phillipines.Malacca Straits.Exercises with the French Navy off Indochina,USN,RAN and RN.Plus of course the odd "Jolly"
SAR ment keeping a boat at China Bay ,Trincomalee Ceylon and Hong Kong,occassionally Glugor ,Penang.These were all regular units with marine craft support.We also had a commitment in N.Borneo,where we operated unassisted.I was most impressed ,that whether it be land in the sea or on a river,within minutes of arriving a "Shell" boat/canoe or scow would appear loaded with fuel in 5 gallon tin cans! which then had to be lugged up on the wing and poured into the tanks via large funnels and chamois leather filters.Fascilities ashore were nonexistent.There were no hotels,we occassionally were put up in a Goverment Rest House.But as we had to maintain a boat guard,and being the junior,I often stayed onboard.For which we were paid the lordly sum of sixpence a day"Hard Lying Allowance" It was no hardship,we had bunks,a galley and could fish,or use the wingtip as a diving board for a swim.Shangri-La.
Each crew had their own aircraft and as we flew in just a pair of shorts and a headphone crews kept their kit on board,we did not wear Mae Wests and only used winter flying kit in Japan during the cold weather,but more of that ,later.
The majority of flights involved a large amount of transit flying,usually in excess of 10 hours,operational flights between 12 and 15 hours and 100-120 hours monthly totals were the norm.
In flight rations were always bulk rations.Meat,Veg usually canned and in some places were of dubious quality,so each crew had a lockable tin trunk on board where we accumulated tinned goodies,mainly acquired from our American cousins at Sangley Point,very generous,help yourself.Tinned Ham,Fruit ,Welches Grapejuice etc. Each crew had two Gunners,whose only flying tasks occured on operational trips.They usually were the cooks. we had two Primus stoves in a built in unit with a Oven/Hotbox between and it was the same unit used by the Empire Flying Boats so we ate well usual fryups,but on winter patrols up north it was large bowls of rib sticking mutton stew washed down with fruit and custard. The crew was divided into Port and Stbd. watches,those not flying helped in preparation,peeling spuds,chopping up various items it worked well and in my time we fed members of the Royal Family on a tour of Borneo.Various Senior Officers of all three Services ,who seemed to like flying with us .An Arch Bishop and last but not least ladies from the Foreign Office in Hong Kong to Seletar on indulgence.No complaints. Although I must tell this one.At Iwakuni,we were supplied inflight rations by the Australian Army Service Corp. The meat always seemed to be scrag end of mutton!! It was either get back at the Poms,or it was all the Aussies fed their troops on. Our equivalent of Gordon Ramsey was a dour Scottish Highlander Gunner,rarely did an emotion of anything other than distain cross his features! but he was a talented cook,or so we thought,and he kept a stock of secret herbs for his stews.We often had requests from American Air Force Officers to fly with us out of Iwakuni,something to do with the award of the "American Air Medal" if they completed a operational flight. On this occassion,winter,bloody cold,no heating on the aircraft,stew,in large quantities was the order of the day.This particular Major had somehow got up Jocks nose,probably said something rude about his coffee. He sat down in the wardroom with the skipper to have Jock serve his lunch.having tasted it.he congratulated Jock on the dish and asked what it was? The skipper swears Jock without batting an eyelid,explained that in Korea,the crew developed a liking for dog stew,it was his pleasure to serve it whenever he could manage to get one,and today it was a particularly nice little bitch that he managed to procure.!! I think he is still spitting,however,after that the story got around and American visitors used to bring their own rations,plus some for the crew.So we all did well.

Before you all start thinking it was all just a swan,with tropical sunshine and brown maidens.I will tell it as it was.Although we did live it up,we did play hard and work hard,as and when required.By todays standards in somewhat primitive conditions at times.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Fantastic. Keep it up. More 'prune at its best'.

One tip though, with such long passages, you might consider entering them into Word and then copying and pasting them into prune. I've had a few occasions where I typed up a long piece only to loose it during the posting process. The difference is that mine are generally worthless, whereas yours are excellent reading.

More please! :ok:

[denis555]

Great stuff!

Please keep it up!

Fascinating stories...:ok::ok:

[overfly]

more please - fascinating, most enjoyable, a window on 'how it was'....

[Old Hairy]

The crew I joined had the Wing IRE as skipper,caused me to go a bit Crinkle Chip,but he proved to be not only the wings most experienced pilot,but a first class chap,took me under his wing and taught me to a standard that was to stand me in good stead in years to come.
Our aircraft DP198 "Oboe",yes we used the old phonetic alphabet,had just come off major servicing,so a shake down trip was in order. 14.15 hours to the Andaman Isles,overfly and return.No snags.Now ready for my first detachment of the tour.
We departed Seletar in the wee hours,one could not land at Kai Tak at night,too many unlit junks and sampans.In a emergency a flarepath could be provided in a bay 5nms away,followed by a long taxi escorted by marine craft. Sometimes we routed via Sangley Point in the Phillipines,usually in the Typhoon season.
Halfway we changed from Singapore to HK area of responsibility and although we called theFrench in Saigon,they rarely answered.The W/Op would pass our ETA,request latest weather etc and ask the HK operator to book a table for ten at Tshenkos Russian Restaurant in Kowloon,and order a roast sucking pig.This was a first night HK ritual.These boys knew how to live! Arriving at Kai Tak,refuelled ,went ashore for a quick shower,change of clothes and piled into two taxis for the fleshpots of Kowloon. After a sumptuous meal of Borch,Roast Sucking Pig and all the trimmings,we departed for a short walk to the renown "Hotel Peninsular" a right den of iniquity!! where "Ladies of the Night" sat lined up on barstools,high heeled shoes hooked over a rung so the soles of their shoes were visible,thereon was displayed in HK Dollars the price of their "Service" It was soon made apparent to me that as an apprentice,I could look but not touch Bugger!!
After a couple of drinks,back to base,we had another 10 hour trip tomorrow. Another dawn takeoff,detour around Formosa and the long haul past the Phillipines,Okinawa to the Inland Sea,passing myriads of small islands,heavily cultivated with terraced fields to alight at Iwakuni,an ex Japanese Navy base,comprised of a seaplane base,airfield,barrack complex,Hospitals,Messes married quarters. A joint Australian/Anglo/American combined organisation.For some strange reason,not understood at that time,each crew was accomodated in Married Quarters amid American dependants.Each crew had a house and a bungalow for Officers,we also had two Japanese housemaids to clean and do laundry
It was bitterly cold,I had left Singapore in the 90's 48hours ago,now there was snow on the ground.To exacerbate the situation I had a severe case of sunburn,trying to emulate my brown crewmates,Id overdone it.the transit flight was very uncomfortable.So I was packed off to the Base Hospital.Dont let anyone tell you Aussie Nursing Sisters have an ounce of compassion,they don't.Even my boyish good looks counted for zilch. I suppose when you are used to dealing with wounded from Korean battlefields,a berk with sunburn does not rate much in the way of sympathy.A dollop of something like "Hellmans Mayonnaise and I was sent packing.

Iwakuni was a vast complex. It handled troops in transit,troops on R&R,wounded,all three Services were involved of at least three nations and the infrastructure was accordingly large. We had the PX,Naafi,a unit called Comex.Huge entertainment theatre,where I was privileged to see "The Bob Hope Show" Marilyn Monroe [she had just married Joe Di-Maggio,the baseball player] Terry Moore and Jane Russell in tiger skin bikinis!! There were many more,including the latest film releases. This was the scale of the American contribution.ENSA our organisation to provide entertainment for the troops was not to be beaten!!! One show I remember had some old biddy who played"Greensleeves on the piano and a burke who told"Max Millar" jokes! There were times I was ashamed to be a Brit.
We had 24 hours off. The aircraft were to be armed and got ready for Ops. we had to draw winter flying clothing which was a farce.I appreciate that we could not be equipped and retain Irving jackets and trousers.in a tropical enviroment,they would have been covered in mildew within a week.We had enough problems with our UK uniforms but some bean counter in FEAF worked out that as only three crews would be deployed at any one time.ergo,three sets of Irving Jackets and Trousers Now I am 6ft.4inches tall allow for the fact the "Old Hairys had it all worked out long before me. I got what was left.I could be recognised from a mile away.I ended up with a set belonging to a dwarf! my sleeves ended just below the elbows and my trews well above the ankles.but I learnt fast for future deployments. So you see when it comes to equipping the boys for the job in hand,nothing has changed.Bean Counters always win.
The RAF shared the operational commitment with a USN VP Squadron of fifteen Mariners>the Flying schedule was Operational flight,Day Off,Duty?Standby Crew.Repeated every three days.So in the usual month you would fly 10 Operational Flights.then return south.

Tomorrow my first Operational trip.

[S'land]

Wonderful stuff, please keep it up.

[Warmtoast]

Old Hairy

Excellent! I'm enjoying every word of your reminisces.

I had several trips in 205/209's Sunderlands whilst stationed at Seletar and China Bay before being posted to Gan.

One particular flight I enjoyed was when I returned to China Bay by Sunderland after a spot of leave in Singapore. Having ovenighted at Glugor (Penang) we took-off on the long flog to China Bay and after an hour or so at 7,000ft or thereabouts to get cool the Captain descended to around 500ft and enquiring of the signaller operating the Primus in the galley why we had descended, was told that the Captain (a Flt. Lt. D. Fairbairn) enjoyed his tea which had to be made in the proper English manner with boiling water, and as any fule no's water boils at a lower temperature when at altitude. Hence the captain descending to make tea at the point where water boiled at the correct boiling point for a perfect cuppa! With the tea made, up we went again.

The navigator on that trip had a Dutch sounding name (Flt. Lt. Van Wadenoijen - not sure if the spelling is correct).

Not sure if the names ring any bells with you, but passed on for info.

[Old Hairy]

Warmtoast, Thanks for the kind remarks.
I was long gone by that time 1954/57.in fact I dont think Gan was in existance as a staging post,probably still being built.
It interests me that DP198 was one of the last aircraft to fly at Seletar,the old girl lasted until the very end of operations.

[Warmtoast]

Old Hairy

Sunderland DP198 in its later years became W for "Whisky" and I took a photo of it alighting at China Bay in the summer of 1957.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay1957-SunderlandWAlighting.jpg

And as to the overnight stop at RAF Glugor, I took this photo of the crew refuelling.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay-SunderlandOverwingrefuelling.jpg

[Old Hairy]

Warmtoast.You are a star Sir,I shall cherish that photo of her at China Bay.Its now my desktop.:ok:
See how standards have lowered since I departed.They are not flying T over E on the mooring mast:=:)

I used to enjoy China Bay SAR detachments.laying about in the sun,fishing,snorkling. There used to be a little handing over ceremony.As we were a lodger unit to the Navy at Trincomalee,accomodation ashore was a bit sparse.A enterprising local had errected a Basha Hut [made of palm fronds],which served the purpose of a bar.This gave way to the following ritual.Each crew would choose their smallest member.A line was drawn on the sand floor six feet from the wall,the four strongest would take an arm or leg and on the count of three,throw him thro the wall.Where his nose came to rest,a small flag would be placedIt was then the turn of the other crew.The losers would buy the beer for the rest of the night!! A small reimbursement was made to the owner to effect repairs. Okay,pathetic,but there was little else in the way of entertainment:\

Thanks once again,you have helped add a bit of colour to my stories

[S'land]

Warmtoast:
Excellent photographs, thanks.


Currently PPRuNe has two superb threads running. For those who have not yet seen it may I recommend the Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW11 on the military board.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11.html

OK. I have to admit that there are many more than two superb threads, but I must admit that reading these two are giving me a lot of pleasure.

[virgo]

Hello Boat Men...............dunno if you've discovered it but there's a great website created by a Tony Hawes (just load the name into Google) an ex-RAF photographer with lots of good piccies of Far-East Sunderlands, including the last flying one and the rather sad boneyard at Seletar.

Get onto his website and particularly look at ; Seletar, China Bay and Gan.

(I've tried to copy some of the photos and display them here for everyone to see but can't do it ! Maybe someone else can ?)

[Old Hairy]

The first of 74

My first operational flight was called by the Americans a "Fox Green". Anti-Sub.Anti-Shipping and/orWX Recce if flown at night,when a American Met. Officer was added to the crew. These flights were flown for Task Force 76 positioned in the Yellow Sea.Usually flown by the Sunderlands,as the Chinese had a nasty habit of shooting at the Mariners.They would attack from astern with 37mm cannon and break off before in machine gun range.At least one Mariner was shot down and several damaged.Why a Sunderland....the only explanation I was ever given why we were not attacked,Mariners are painted dark blue,Sunderlands are white.Which just happens to be a Chinese funeral colour...bit like shooting at a hearse!!

0400.hrs.early call.get dressed.some pulled their long johns and shirts over their pyjamas,remember no heating on board. Into the crew coach to Briefing,grab a cup of coffee.no breakfast,the Messes were not open,perhaps the reason we were in married quarters, Get latest weather,task and any pertinent info from the Briefing Officer and with his cheery"Life expectancy in the sea today 2 minutes " ringing in our ears,back on the crew coach for the journey down to the pier, Check F700,quick word with Chiefy and onto the launch and out to the trots.Let me remind you again,no heaters,no warm air blowers,just a cold soaked aircraft.The temperature usually minus something.It could be raining/snowing.The crew had to handle chains and shackles without gloves.The engineer had a particularly hazardous job of lowering the leading edge of the wing to start the APU.It could all be very cold and dodgy.Start up,taxy out into the bay,runup,check in with Control,the seaplane tender,USN "Salisbury Sound" moored in the bay,mother ship for the VP Sqdns. It provided the pinnace and was our communication centre throughout the flight.Although apart from "On Task" and "Off Task" messages we maintained radio silence,the frequency was monitored for broadcasts every 30 mins. which could give change of task or diversion.

Airborne at 0600 hrs. we headed for the Shimonaseki Gap.the passage between the two main Islands,leading to the Tsushima Straits.which divide Japan from Korea. We were equipped with ASV VI.C centrimetric radar, designed for detecting periscopes,snorkels,small targets.Consequently it had a wide pulse width,find a tin can in a calm sea at 5nm.But it wasnt much use for map reading,it bridged over inlets and gaps. We therefore used to get the radar operator to practise taking us thro at 500ft..The passage was W shaped,with HT cables at 200ft,with high ground either side.We always out of preference flew 1000ft. or below.The alternative was to climb to 7000ft. and letdown blind the other side.No Area Radar in those days. Once clear of Shimonaseki,one headed north for Task Force 77 south of Vladivostock,or continued West around Korea before heading North into the Yellow Sea for Task Force 76.Depending where they were a 3 to 4 hour transit.All navigation was DR,we had no aids apart from radar.We did have a D/F loop but there were no M.F.beacons.
Once airborne,Tea/Coffee,Bacon sandwiches all round and the Meat/Veg prepared for the inevitable stew.

Entering the Patrol Area,it was Lock and Load,which I believe is the current phraseology,all guns were tested,Bomb racks run out and circuits checked,we carried 250 lb, depth charges,turrets and beam .5's manned,ready for action we started our patrol.The one thing we tried never to do,was overfly the Task Force,Navy gunners have notoriously twitchy fingers! and I dont think their aircraft recognition was all that good.
Depending on task given,we could be on patrol between the TF and Chinese Mainland looking for subs. and fast patrol boats.All Sunderlands carried the callsign "Watchman,we guarded a VHF channel .If the trip was a weather recce,we would have come on task at midnight,carried out the same patrols,but at dawn passed weather observations to the TF for that days missions.Occasionally when flying between the TF and the Korean coast,we would get a call from observors on off shore islands for relay to the TF.Must have been the equivalent of todays Navy Seals.It was so cold,it was normal for ice to form on the galley roof from condensation.We could plug in up to four positions so that crewmembers could use electrically heated socks and gloves,more than four ,blew the fuse,so it was the nose and tail turrets plus the beam .5's.
After six hours on task.we would depart.bomb racks run in,guns stowed hatches closed and the long transit back. Once approaching Tsushima the weather socked in,the radar was on the blink. so we had to climb to 8000ft. to clear high ground.we subsequently flew into a embedded CuNim Tropical CuNims are BIG B****RDS!! we dropped like a brick,full power ,went down like an elevator.we finally came out,fortunately over the sea at 1000ft. and crept back to Iwakuni.After refuelling,debriefing,you had had a long cold 18 hour day.ALL I wanted was a hot bath and bed.
As an aside,for that flight I was awarded two Medals!! British Korean Campaign and United Nations Medal.seeing as Seletar was an operational posting my first flight entitled me to the General Services Medal[Malaysia] So I had earned three campaign medals in six days.Commonly referred to as the"Easy Three"

[Warmtoast]

(I've tried to copy some of the photos and display them here for everyone to see but can't do it ! Maybe someone else can ?)

Rather naughty as his site says:

Photographs are Copyright © 2008 Tony Hawes and may not be used for commercial purposes without my express permission. You are welcome to use them privately, on your own web site for example, but as a matter of courtesy I'd appreciate that you tell me you've used my photo(s) and give me credit by mentioning my name in the caption - many thanks.

[Saab Dastard]

You should try and get hold of "Bird of the Islands" by Sir Gordon Taylor - fascinating story of setting up and using an ex-Imperial Short Sandringham as a luxury air tour service in the South Pacific. Several good pics too!

SD

[virgo]

Warmtoast...............This isn't a commercial site and I had every intention of complying with the request to give credit to Mr. Hawes had I been able to download the photos.

[Evileyes]

As it happens, Mr Hawes is a member in good standing of PPRuNe and particularly of this forum. Perhaps when he next drops in he will honour us with his photos and tales.

[virgo]

Warmtoast..................I've just realised, you must be Tony Hawes.
Sorry if I've upset you, I just wanted to share your extremely interesting and very professional photographs with other enthusiasts. As evileyes suggests, perhaps you'd like to ?

[Old Hairy]

The rest of the month soon passed.Two convoy escorts in the Wonsan area.two more Fox greens and one refuelling group for Task force 77 off the east coast and four Tsushima Straits patrols.All Anti-Sub and shipping patrols.

We returned to Seletar via Kai Tak. Oh it was great to be warm again and fly in shorts! Carried out my first anti-Pirate patrol in the Mallacca Straits,visited Glugor,Mallacca,then to China Bay for ASR for ten days. On return,air test,loop swing Off to North Borneo,Labuan,Kudat Anti -Pirate patrols off N.Borneo for several days and return to Seletar.
My next trip was to be my first "Firedog" operating against the insurgents in Malaysia.
Its not my intention to relate all the history of the insurgency,suffice to add that a terrorist band having been located,or suspected to be operating in a area from strikes on villages/rubber plantations/intelligence.The area would be ringed with troops.First in would be either Lincolns or Brigands from Tengah to drop some heavy stuff to wake them up.We then followed and did our stuff for the next two hours.Hoping to drive them out into the troops.

If you have ever flown over primary jungle,you will know,its as featureless as a one colour carpet. we were given coordinates and where the troops were.Usually there was some evidence of the previous strike,but not always,the jungle can absorb a lot.We would establish a datum.Road/river.high ground,something we could perform timed runs from.The last thing we wanted to do was bomb our own chaps! We were loaded with a bomb room full of crated 20lb fragmentation bombs,four to a box. Armourers had loaded and crutched eight either side on the bomb racks.These were dropped on the first run by the Nav.from the nose.Thereafter our lords and masters at FEAF HQ. thought we should bring the bomb racks in,load and crutch attach nose pin lanyard and run out ready for the next run.with the bomb room stacked high with boxes it would have taken all day!! Old Hairy's knew a better way. open a load of boxes,remove pin stack vertical eight to a box either side. Nav in nose does timed run,now,now now,crewmember in galley on intercom,gives the signal .two members in bomb room throw bombs out of hatch ,one by one.Works perfectly! Now there can be the odd diversion!! these boxes were stored in open sheds.it quite common to open the lid and find a red ants nest! in which case,heavo,entire box and contents thro the hatch. The odd nonchalant throw,bomb hits cill, bounces back into bomb room!! First time I saw this,I nearly S**t a brick...casual smile by old hairy,picked up thrown out. The bombs had a spin off nose cap,which had to be removed before it became armed.
Having continued in this fashion for about an hour ,we would,tidy up close bomb doors and man the guns.Down to just above treetops, and again with timed runs open up.Usually with no specific target in sight,just keep the buggers running hopefully.The pilots could not join in with the fixed nose guns,trajectory too flat.Time over target usually around 1.30. Then what was known as a "Flag Wag" We would return very low level roaring over villages to let them see we were about and perhaps scattering a few chickens and water buffaloes in the paddy fields.
I did 24 of these,nearly reached the total of 100 Ops. Many of the chaps did,not that it ment anything, but its a nice round figure!

[Warmtoast]

Old Hairy

Thanks for the latest instalment - keep up the good work.

Earlier you said:

Thanks once again,you have helped add a bit of colour to my stories

So I thought I'd add a little more colour in the form of the only photo I took in colour of a Sunderland.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/SunderlandP-Copy.jpg

Taken around mid September 1958 at Gan, this 205/209 Sqn aircraft (“P” ML797) was one of the last Sunderlands to visit Gan. On this occasion it had been tasked to fly from China Bay in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) to Male, the capital of the Maldives and return to China Bay with some UK diplomats from the UK High Commission in Ceylon, but on arrival at Male it damaged a float whilst attempting to alight in a severe swell; it then diverted to Gan and after temporary repairs it returned to Seletar via China Bay.

According to the 205/209 squadron Operations Record Book in the National Achives at Kew, the last Sunderland to visit Gan was on 20th December 1958, but this was after I'd left the island on posting back to the UK.

History is attached to this particular aircraft (“P” ML797) because on 20th May 1959 at RAF Seletar it flew the final RAF Sunderland flight with the C in C FEAF, Air Marshal The Earl of Bandon on board.

And here is a photo of the C-in-C ("The Abandoned Earl") having a beer with some of his men on an earlier visit to Gan.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/AOCVisit2.jpg

[Warmtoast]

Evil Eyes and Virgo.

Perhaps when he next drops in he will honour us with his photos and tales.

I may just do this at some point, but not immediately, so watch this space.

Meanwhile my online album can be seen here:

Tony Hawes - RAF Service 1951-63 (http://groups.msn.com/TonyHawesRAFService195163/rafchinabaysrilanka1957.msnw)

and as a PS I am an enthusiastic amateur photographer, not an ex-RAF photographer.

[240 Gardner]

S'land

Currently PPRuNe has two superb threads running. For those who have not yet seen it may I recommend the Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW11 on the military board.
Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW11 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11.html)

OK. I have to admit that there are many more than two superb threads, but I must admit that reading these two are giving me a lot of pleasure.

Absolutely agree! As the son of a wartime Sunderland pilot who learned to fly in Pensacola, I've been riveted by both of them.

I've had the pleasure of fully exploring the interior of Hendon's Sunderland with my Dad (30 years ago before its later restoration) and I work within sight of Solent Sky's example and so have been inside it several times, but I can't truly imagine what life was like for these chaps on active service.

These threads do give us a wonderful insight - thank you!! :ok:

[Corsairoz]

Stunning thread. Thanks to all. Especailly Old Hairy.

I spend a good amount of my spare time guiding people and especially kids around and onto the Flight Deck of the Solent Sky Sandringham. (ex JM715 sunderland III)

I was lucky enough to fly in her in the 70's during a visit to the UK, (a good chunk of it in the flight deck) and having read much about Sunderlands I delight in regaling our visitors with some real life stories rather than dulling museum visitors with numbers and statistics.

Old Hairy, any time you want to come along and sit back at the controls let me know and I'll pay for your entry and sit with you as you reminsc.

Superb.
Trevor

[Old Hairy]

Warmtoast. Another fantastic photograph for my files Thank you. especially the attached info. case of real "Broken Float Drill"
Ive a few more stories yet to post.I must say how much Ive enjoyed recounting the old days.Put a spring in my step!

Trevor. Thank you for your kind offer. I have visited many years ago ,but would like to take you up on your offer,perhaps when I return from holiday,end of July,early August.I will PM you.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

The only Sunderland story I have is that I was hitchiking in New Zealand in 1985/86 and they have (had) one in a small outdoor museum. Previous to seeing this one, I had only ever seen pictures in books. She was certainly impressive close up, but you could already see that she wasn't happy living outside.

A couple of days later I got a ride and we got talking about the museum. It turned out the guy who had picked me up had ferried that aircraft [boat?] over to NZ, on a trip that IIRC had laster for three months :ok: To say the least, he was not happy about the state she was in now, having sat outside for several years.

I wonder if he's reading this thread.

[Old Hairy]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaagh.I think it was 1953,when the Sunderlands acquired for the RNZAF started staging thro Seletar enroute from UK. They had if I recall, twin radio masts on top of the fuselage? I know we were quite envious of the new fit.
I forgot to thank you for your tip,appreciated.

I have been amazed at the interest this thread has invoked.I have long known of the affection of those priveledged to fly her,but it seems we are not alone in appreciating a once great workhorse. Not to mention a really superb aircraft.

[Old Hairy]

A few lighter moments;
The places we routinely visited,and the fact that Customs & Excise was non-existent was just too much for some. The undoubted "King" was our other Gunner,Bill, a cockney.He was more like a travelling salesman.He had a finger,if not a whole arm in all the rackets that could produce cash.He was a "Ladies Man-Par Excellence"could charm the birds off the tree.
He was the only chap I knew in FEFBW to have a brand new Car!! Remember this was not long after WWII andsuch commodities were only just starting to flow.He was not selfish,he did let us in on some of his routine items.Ive absolutely certain many more lucrative schemes he kept to himself. One could for instant buy a Rolliecord reflex camera in Hong Kong and providing the seals on the box were intact,sell it for double in any shop in Iwakuni.Likewise ladies shoes,bought cheap by the suitcase full in HK [remember to buy small sizes].Could be disposed of with out bother.There was a snag.On Base,two currencies were used,BAFS for UK/Aussies,Script forUS.Either was convertible into Yen,but Yen was NOT convertible.Therefore one lived ones social life off base on your ill-gotten gains, or tried to buy something in the way of Japanese Porcelain,Carved Cherry Wood,something you wanted,or you drank a lot!! Bill had a source of cultivated pearls!! which he sold for another,albeit he said," small profit" to a merchant in Singapore,putting his gains back into Singapore Dollars ready for the next roundof his enterprise.

Fluffy Huggists,are not a new phenomen.Communicable Sexual Disease was obviously causing concern amongst the hierarchy.So.......The Archbishop of Lichfield was summoned to give the lads a talking too...As if that was going to do any good?
We just happened to be off to Iwakuni and the Venerable gentleman and party,were to be transported.We left at crack of sparrows early Sunday morning,were about halfway To Kai Tak,when we got a message on the intercom that one of his acolytes wished to visit the flight deck.Not unusual.He appeared and approached the skipper and said"His Eminence would like to hold a short prayer meeting in the Wardroom,would any

member of the crew wish to attend?" The skipper said yes we would all come,which somewhat confused him,and he shot back to the Wardroom.George was in,so leaving just the Flt.Eng. we all trooped down after the skipper had a quick word on the intercom.All squeezed into the Wardroom to find the Bishop being talked to rather animatedly by his acolyte.The Bishop said he wished to bless us all and was certain we had more important tasks to perform.In all the shortest service Ive ever attended!!!

[NRU74]

Old Hairy,
Cleaning out my shed a couple of months ago I found a Royal Air Force Station Calshot wall plaque - [motto Ducunt Astra].Like me it's suffered a bit of wear and tear and I've no idea where I've got it from etc., ...but if you'd like it for your shed or lavatory wall please pm me with an address and I'll put it in a jiffy bag and send it to you [gratis obviously]


[I also found an RAF Tengah car bumper badge -it's mainly chrome and is very slightly damaged...but if anyone wants it for their shed/loo pse pm me and I'll send it -gratis of course]

[PPRuNe Pop]

Before drawing your attention to the importance of pics I would like to welcome 'Old Hairy' and his remarkable tales of derring do. His lucid descriptions are a joy to read. I remember seeing Sunderlands in Pembroke Dock in the 50's the best bit was the take offs and landings, a wonderful sight.

Now, over the years we have had some superlative photos placed on here. Some of the best you will ever see I hasten to add.

But..........one thing we insist on is that you respect the fact that they do not belong to PPRuNe. They have an owner and he can if he so wishes remove them or leave them. So, you may not use them or copy them. I daresay that if you request permission it will be given providing you give due credit to it's copyright owner.

We are very fortunate indeed to see some rare pics and we will not tolerate any abuse of copyright - you will instantly lose your rights to use PPRuNe if you do.

We know that you will respect that.

Just enjoy is the name of the game.

PPP

[Caramba]

Old Hairy, your your story of Sunderland days at Calshot and the far east has brought a tear to my eye and a lump to my throat. My dad - who have been 82 this month, was at Calshot at the same time as you on ASWDU. He had been on 209 from November 1946 to January 1949, had a brief period with 205 and 201, before arriving at Calshot in June 1949. He subsequently flew Neptunes (217) and Shackletons (120, 228, 210) and spent 2 years with the US Navy (VX1) flying S2Fs and P2s - or SP2Hs as they were by then. I only arrived after his Sunderland time was over, though I know that it was one of the most exciting times of his life. I have all his log books and browse through from time to time. I particularly enjoy the entries that say things like "Compass swing - 3 duff engines. Alighted off Changi - taxied back", and the regular trips Seletar-Kuching-Labuan-Jesselton with P and F plus the odd "GG - VIP". I'll keep reading your story - in the meantime if I can scan some of his old photos I'll post them here if that's OK?

More soon please!:D:D:D

Caramba

[Old Hairy]

Caramba, I am so pleased you have enjoyed my stories.Although I was at Calshot at the same time as your Dad,remember I was a sprog,he WAS a Flying Boat Man.to quote the "Two Ronnies",I looked up to him,he looked down on me!:)
I am very aware that I came to the Sunderland as a young man,now 79,there cannot be too many of us left.I am priveledged to put these stories in the public view. Delighted they have been so well received. I had just composed my latest, which I had not intended to post yet,but in view of your post and the places you name.I thought you might like it.

The Royal Flight.

!952. HRH Princess Marina.The Duchess of Kent,accompanied by her son,The Duke of Kent,were to make a tour of the Far East.Part of this tour was to include a ten day visit to North Borneo.At that time the only landing strip existed on Labuan Island.So it was decided that the Royal Party would be flown in a Sunderland.I often wondered how she felt about that,as her husband had been killed flying a Sunderland? Using a operational aicraft for the tour was a bit of a headache,when it came to providing suitable accomodations.Although the longest planned flight was five hours,all possible contingencies had to be catered for.It was decided that SZ578 on major servicing would be the the aircraft. and would be repainted dazzling white,with modifications to the Wardroom and other "Facilities". To this end soundproofing ,cushions with slip covers,carpeting,electric fans,teak coffee table and the Wardroom resprayed a tasteful dove grey. A Icebox was fitted in the galley. The next question to be addressed.Who was to Captain the aircraft? My skipper was chosen,he was adamant that he wanted his own crew,so yours truly became a member of the "Royal Crew". The entire crew was not needed,no Gunners would be taken,but we did have a "Savoy" trained Chef added to our number.He hated flying,but what that man could achieve with two primus stoves and a hotplate was amazing!. The Ice box was liberally stocked and although the Royal Party consumed very little,canapes and chilled white wine, We did well! We were also provided with snazzy white flying overalls,boy did we look good.BUT. the bean counters again!! we were give one set for a ten day trip in the tropics,no laundry facilities? Try mooring and slipping with greasy anchor chains,shackles etc in the temps we operated in and maintain an immaculate appearance.We evolved a scheme whereby we would prepare the aircraft on short slip,ready to start.Then change into white suits. One crewmember in the bow in white suit,the rest of us lined up on the wing.Royal party on board,down on the flight deck shed suits,start up taxi out,takeoff.The chap in the bow would leave as soon as the Duchess was in the Wardroom.to be replaced by another crewmember hidden in the heads,that way we managed to keep them somewhat respectable,although we did warn the ADC that should any member of the Royal Party wish to visit the flight deck,we needed some ten minutes notice or they could be some embarassment. But I get ahead of myself.

Anyone who has been involved in any simular operation will know the B*lls**t and panic resorted too,by those responsible for planning.We had,in another aircraft a run thro the trip to check moorings,at Kuala Belait,on a river the mooring buoy was attached to a concrete block that was bloody useless,the river was full of debris.It turned out in the end the Government Officer arranged for the Dyaks upriver to stop all rubbish from coming down.At Sandaken.we were expected to moor to a normal ship buoy,around ten foot long,six foot diameter.If the boat was blown,or swung by the tide we would have been holed.This was all sorted and it was decided that an armed boatguard would be needed,capable of slipping and taxying the boat.quess where I came in?
The final rehearsal in the Royal Aircraft,involved the AOC and Mrs AOC plus hangers on for a full run thro the entire ten day programme.They ate considerably more food than the Royal Party! but it turned to our advantage latter,more for us. Ever had Foie Gras sandwiches,chilled white wine,sat on the wing,watching the sunset,followed by smoking the Royal Markowitz Black and White cigarettes? I have!! followed early the next morning by a launch approaching out of the mist??!! We were not expecting anyone until mid morning,clutching our Webly 38s we told them to stand off and explain what they wanted.A rather immaculate gent stood up and in a plummy voice said "HRH has expressed a preference for brown toast for breakfast.Unfortunately we do not have any,but understand you might have some".To which the Eng. replied,"sorry mate we ate it last night"
The tour went without out incident and was a great success.The itinerary was;
Seletar to Kuching
Kuching to Sibu. Sibu to Kuching
Kuching to Jesselton
Jesselton to Sandakan.Sandakan to Jesselton
Jesselton to Brunei
Brunei to Kuala Belait
Kuala Belait to Seletar.
In between we popped over to Labuan to refuel and restock the ice box. We were quickly relieved of our snazzy flying suits,on the very day we returned to Seletar.!!
I subsequently met HRH,when she presented the standard to 57 Squadron at Honington in1962.she greeted my wife and I like long lost friends,asked after our son,and chatted for five minutes.Now I realize they are briefed in advance,but this was one gracious Lady.

[Chugalug2]

Old Hairy, thank you Sir for such a fascinating and detailed account of your days on the Sunderland. Your recent accounts of Royal Tours around the Far East certainly rang bells with me as some 15 years later I was a sprog co-pilot detached from 48 Squadron to the Far East Comm Sqn, both Hastings equipped at Changi, but the latter with the elegant Mk4-a flying Pall Mall club. As you say the cuisine was fantastic, usually served up by the ALM in the wardroom while our VIP inspected Guards of Honour etc. I think that was when I lost my sylph like figure, never to return sadly. Mention of the Abandoned Earl also reminded me of stories, told by those who spanned the two decades, that he was renowned for inviting the crew of his CinC Sunderland to the wardroom once airborne and proceeding to liberate them of their Pay and allowances at Poker! Even given the opportunities to enhance these that you recount it would seem that could be an expensive duty! Much more please!

[Hawk]

I have some good quality photos of Sunderlands mainly official one from the War years. No 461 and 10 squadrons (RAF and RAAF). Some good movie footage as well, lists of "missing" crews and next of kin. Despite recognising relatives in the photos, there is no reference in log books at all. Apart from Certificate of Qualification dated 16.3.40 Sunderland D. & N.

(Just pulled out a pic of Sunderland HY G 53)

[Old Hairy]

NRU74. Thank you Sir for your very kind offer.I do have a Calshot Plaque,however perhaps you would like to extend the offer to Caramba? his father served there.

Chugalug2. Snap!! thanks for the post.I wonder how the Earl would have fared with my "Old Hairy's" bet they would have given him a run for his money.

[Old Hairy]

Now Gentlemen,[I dont think any Ladies are reading this thread] Impressed by your impeccable good manners,desire to hear all about my travels.Ive decided to let it all hang out.As they say.

"A Samurai may be named according to Feudal Alliance,Skills and Attributes"

Some 18 months into my tour.I'd been there, seen it and sampled all that Iwakuni Town had to offer.We had many opportunities for a flight to Tokyo,but rarely had more than one day off,so we could not travel far. A friend and I decided to explore the the immediate countryside,hired two little motorbikes and set off for a village about 25 miles down the coast to the West that we passed over on flights in and out of Iwakuni.
Dirt roads,hot and sunny,by time we arrived we were covered in dust and hot and thirsty.
In feudal Japan,War Lords travelled through their domain by sedan chair,accompanied by Samurai on horseback and foot soldiers.At strategic places were Inns,for the want of a better name,where his needs and accomodation could be catered for.This village contained what remained of one. We pulled up outside,Now Westerners were not commonly seen in these parts,we seemed to have slipped back a century.Peasants popped out from everywhere,bowing and hissing.[fortunately we were aware that when in the presence of someone to whom you consider yourself inferior,you suck in your breath,to indicate that you are not contaminating the air they breath,!! quaint eh?].
We asked for a drink and were ushered into the Inn and seated.Sake was offered,but politely declined.beer was proffered,two young ladies knelt by our side and topped up our glasses as we drank.I had acquired a smattering of Japanese by this time and as we were only allowed off base in uniform,they wanted to know what our brevets meant,we explained with suitable gestures we flew the aircraft that passed over their village daily.Lots of OOHS and AAHHS. The Owner/Manager had been summoned,appeared very flustered and spoke very rapidly,getting him to slow down,finally understood he wanted to know if we required to bathe! Now communal bath houses are not really our style,but what the heck! we were covered in dust and a long way from base! there is a first time for everything.
We were escorted to the Bath House,wherein our uniforms were deftly removed by two scantily clad nubile young maids,starkers, seated on a three legged stool,lathered all over,rinsed and repeated.Japanese do not consider nudity in this context at all embarassing.The girls actions were not at all suggestive.We were led to the bath,about 8ft.square and 3ft, deep in which several people were already soaking.Japanese giggle a lot and the sight of our tanned bodies and white backsides were too much for them.After all they are the same colour all over! Japanese can be very personal,although no offense is meant.One old crone passed a remark causing great hilarity.I caught the word "sword" which was obviously reference to the male appendage,commonly referred to as "The Sword of Pleasure"Japanese men apparantly are not particularly well endowed it would seem!We slowly tried to inch into the bath,but it was just too dammed hot. We were offered a steam room,Shed with benches,water poured onto hot rocks and left alone for 15 mins. The same two maidens reappeared ,rinsed us off with warm water and towelled off.They then produced our uniforms,which had been laundered and beautifully pressed,how this was accomplished in such a short space of time I dont know. Payment for all this was a pittance,no gratuities would be accepted.We were escorted to the front door,where it appeared the entire village had been assembled. The Manager gave a short speech,,received with much applause,he saw that we did not understand and motioned for us to wait.He reappeared with a piece of ricepaper on which were a string of Japanese characters.We thanked them and with much bowing and hissing we rode off.
Later I asked one of the Mess receptionists if she would translate for me.She read it,giggled,showed it to the other receptionist and upon regaining her composure,said "You have been given a Samurai name,Winged Warrior with a Mighty Sword" She paid me an inordinate amount of attention after that!! But Ive never really understood if that was Japanese humour.A compliment?,or was he taking the Piss.???
Now Ive told you chaps in confidence...Im sure you will keep my little,sorry big secret,won't you?

[Krakatoa]

I enjoyed reading Old Hairy's account of his experience on Sunderlands in FEAF.
I was fortunate to be a part of the same operations from 1950 to 1953, but on a different squadron and therefor my recollections differ slightly.
I moved in reverse to Old Hairy, passing through Calshot as a trainee Flight Engineer, two and a half years in FEAF before training as a pilot then through the Lancs at St. Mawgan to all different marks of Shackleton. I did not enjoy navigating a Lanc, but found the experience most useful in later life when doing my ATPL exams. I seem to remember that in the fifties navigators were going to take over the RAF. They certainly took over Coastal Command. By the way what ever happened to navigators.

My outstanding memories were delivering Britains first atomic device for testing to the Montebello Islands off the north west coast of Australia. Three trips from Seletar in August 1952. Another memory was taking a Sunderland back to the UK for overhaul and collect a "factory reconditioned" one and return flying the old Imperial Airways route to Singapore. The "old" one flew like a bird, no problems. The new "reconditioned" one from Shorts was a dog. Unscheduled stops and lengthy delays. The P&W engines that were overhauled not a million miles from Stranraer required much work.
I would not have missed it for all the................

[sunday driver]

Old Hairy

Many, many thanks for sharing.

Great personal interest for me - my father was SWO at Calshot while you were there. It's very warming for me to hear from you, who were actually there and doing it.

I wonder if you were around more recently when Peter Smith spent all that time at Calshot with ML814. There were some excellent evenings around that time at The Flying Boat Inn (since flattened) with some fine gentlemen sharing their experiences.

Again, many thanks - great stuff.

SD

[S'land]

Quote by Old Hairy:
I have been amazed at the interest this thread has invoked.I have long known of the affection of those priveledged to fly her,but it seems we are not alone in appreciating a once great workhorse. Not to mention a really superb aircraft.

You see, you just have to post about Boats and we all come creeping out of the woodwork.

There certainly is a mystique about them. The other day I was in the office (I usually work from home) and had my laptop open. My screen background is a photograph of a Sunderland. My boss had brought his ten year old daughter into the office and she saw the photograph and aske wat it was. Shw then wanted to know what Flying Boats were. Her reaction was "Cool, why don't they exist today?". Strange to think that Dornier Flying Boats were built less than 30 km from where she was born.

[Gainesy]

Sheesh! This has been running since mid-June and I just found it, well, that was this afternoon's plans up in smoke.:)

Old Hairy, please don't stop after your Sunderland days, I'm sure we'd all like a few more Shack and V-Force ditties.:ok:

[Old Hairy]

Sunday Driver. Honest it was'nt me:\ One did not mess with SWO's of that era:)
I remember ML814 very well.I kept a boat on the Hamble at that time and used to see her at Calshot.Saw her flying down the Solent at one time.Then when Kermit Weekes bought her,saw her in Florida.
Was'nt "the Flying Boat" once the Officers Mess?

[Old Hairy]

June 28th 1953.
We were tasked to pick up a Admiral,General and a AVM,who had been attending a SEATO Conference in Manila and return them to Singapore.We were to position at USN Sangley Point.Some two days previous a Typhoon had swept thro the Phillipines and on arrival the sea state was a bit rough.Normal procedure was for crewmembers to assume ditching positions,on the upper deck between the main spars.
We made our approach,on initial touchdown,an almighty bang,intercom went dead and the first reaction was full power and we staggered back into the air.We had hit a submerged object.Sorting ourselves out.one of the Gunners,Joe Ibbotsen by name came forrad and told us there was a "Bloody great hole int bottom" we informed Sangley Tower of our predicament and requested flypast to confim damage.They reported a large portion of the planing surface was missing mid Wardroom to step. They further wanted to know if we would be landing on the field.This was quickly declined.No Brakes!! decided we were better off in our own element and would try to beach her.Time was of the essence,it would be dark in thirty minutes. we selected a spot down the coast,shallow water,sandy beach,near Cavite City.Aimed to touch down about 4-600 yards out and run her onto the beach.Informed Sangley of our decision and made the approach,just before touchdown,closed throttles hauled back hard nearly on the stall,to try and use the bit of hull aft of the step,we achieved this ,only to pitch quickly forward as the sea entered,came to an abrupt stop and quietly sank in about 25 feet of water,wings just awash,popped the dinghies out of the wing stowages,boarded and paddled ashore.Apart from a few bruises,nobody was hurt.Shortly after the cavalry arrived Ambulances ,Firetrucks and a USN Patrol boat. Which subsequently stood by the wreck all night to stop the locals who would have removed everything movable!Apart from jackets and personal belongings hung up in the Wardroom.The Captains briefcase with $1000 imprest.was also there.
We were taken back to Sangley,checked in Sick Bay.The Base Commander then took us to our respective Messes,at which we were provided shirts and royally looked after.
We were to be flown back to Seletar by the USN,which I would have enjoyed,but an exchange of signals with FEAF.It was decided a Squadron aircraft would be sent to pick us up.
The next day{Complete with hangover] we returned to Cavite to advise on location of pyrotechnics for removal by Navy divers,who also brought up some personal stuff,but sadly no imprest! They also positioned wide canvas strops,fore and aft of the wing.The intention was to lift the boat onto a barge,using a floating crane.Both of which were enroute

A quick note to those amongst us,never to have been fortunate to have served in the Armed Forces, It is generally common to all military services for junior officers to be given supernumary duties,these usually bear no relation to your primary duties.
In my time I have been Officer i/c Station Band! I cannot read a note of music. The best.Secretary to the RAF Changi Golf Club.For my exemplary duty I was made a Life Member.Then some silly B*****ds built Singapore International Airport on it!!
I digress. The crane had an Officer i/c a Lt. j.g.resplendent in shining whites,obviously out to make his number.There was quite a bit of Brass about including the Base Commander. Lt.j.g. having checked on the weight of the plane,but entirely overlooking she was filled with water,ordered the owner of the crane,A Hairy Assed Three Badged Stoker.to lift. he demurred ,quitely talking ,he wanted to lift,drain,lift drain etc.I gave you an order said Lt,jg. where on Hairy shrugged and applied steady lift,neatly pulling out the centre section. "Peter" was now in five different parts. Not that it mattered ,she was scrap anyway and would be written off. I often wondered about his promotion prospects?
It was then decided to pull the wings,nose and tail sections onto the beach,where we advised on draining tanks.The footnote to this story,the crew arriving to pick us up were somewhat shattered to see the wreckage strewn on the beach and equally surprised to see us all in one piece.
The aircraft concerned was "Peter" of that I am positive.But in my logbook its down as-NL279.but according to Chas Bowyer's book on the Sunderland. it does not exit?neither does ML279.Ive been thro all the possible permutations .no luck.Any idea's?

PS. A Hairy Assed Three Badge Stoker. Is another nautical term to denote someone of considerable experience!:\

[Blacksheep]

Then some silly B*****ds built Singapore International Airport on it!!You are misinformed Sir. Changi Golf Club (http://www.changigolfclub.org.sg/c/index.php) is still there. I do hope you have kept your life membership certificate. :ok:

[S'land]

Old Hairy, please don't stop after your Sunderland days, I'm sure we'd all like a few more Shack and V-Force ditties.

Gainsey:
That wasn't fair. We were saving this until Old Hairy had finished his Sunderland days. Sort of "spring it on him gently", However, I wholeheartedly agree that he should continue.

[Old Hairy]

Blacksheep, Egad Sir,you are right.Ive just Googled it.Not quite the same layout,but near enough. Yes I do have my life membership,but it does state,RAF Changi Golf Club.Wonder if they would honour that?


Gentlemen, a large thread already exists about Vulcans.Ive contributed to it.Anyway V Bombers were no where near as interesting as the old Sunderbus.

Maybe just maybe, the odd Shack. story.I will consider it. when I return from my sojourn in the sun.

[240 Gardner]

Without wishing to detract from "Old Hairy's" fine narrative, I thought you gentlemen might like to see this reproduction:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/240Gardner/W6076smallerstill.jpg

It was painted for me in oils by someone I used to work with, as a birthday present for my Dad. It depicts Sunderland Mk III, W6076, at Bathurst. I now have the original hanging on my wall at home.

[NRU74]

NRU74. Thank you Sir for your very kind offer.I do have a Calshot Plaque,however perhaps you would like to extend the offer to Caramba?

Over to you Caramba

[Old Hairy]

One of the most memorable "Jollies" for me was a trip to the Keeling Islands,owned by the Clunies-Ross family.Whether we went by invitation or request by Singapore who administered the Islands I do not remember.The Islands had a Cable & Wireless Station and the main industry was the coconut plantations producing copra.Situated way out in the Indian Ocean,it was my first crossing of the equator,which occurred on the 9th Oct.1953 at 1136. Signals had been exchanged ,and we were loaded with Fruit and Veg. from Cameroon Highlands and several packages,some spare machinery parts.
It was a long flog, as we could not overfly Indonesia and had to fly passing the northern most tip at a place called Diamond Point,then south west. It required an early start as it was imperitive to arrive in daylight.It gets dark at six.and you had to land inside the reefs of ring shaped Atolls.Landing on one of the boat channels we then had to proceed very cautiously,as there were uncharted coral heads.One of the only occassions when we had crewmember in the bows using a leadline.Another nautical art! chanting out the calls "by the deep six" "four and a quarter" fathoms Im referring too.Felt just like Captain Hornblower! We anchored using the fisher mans type anchor stowed in the bows,but rarely if ever used.

We were met by Mr John Clunies-Ross,known as King Ross. a very nice but autocratic man. We unloaded all the gear and were invited to a barbeque in our honour.had a great time.Left next morning Via Glugor,where we stopped to refuel. Subsequently these flights were stopped as one boat dragged its anchor and was blown on a reef.I believe it was a writeoff.

Another trip combined with a Navex. was to the Car Nicobar Islands.it had a landing strip of crushed coral and was only used occasionly by Varsity aircraft to refuel.It was manned by One Officer and six Airmen. Must have been a very lonely posting. I know he was delighted to have three officers to entertain,almost like a "Dining In Night" he remarked!.

There were times when it was difficult to takeoff,if there was a dead calm and a glassy sea. you had to break the suction under the hull to get up on the step.It happened once in China Bay.The French were making flights to Saigon bringing in reinforements,using the Latecoaire[spelling?] flying boats they staged thro China Bay.[ They also had absolutely gorgeous flight attendants] After making several abortive attempts,we assisted by getting the pinnace to zigzag in front of it to create a few waves,which was the standard operating procedure for us. Very sad to see them get airborne!!

Once a year,jelly fish spawn, and gathered in huge numbers in the Johore Straits at Seletar.Didnt cause us problems,but it was like alighting on a bowl of goo. The problem was for the poor chaps who had to moorup,all the strops were covered with a film of goo ,which stung like mad.Again, one of the few occassions we endevoured to use the boathook.

Gentlemen ,I have really enjoyed recounting the good old days, Ive already stated she was a marvellous aircraft,rarely let you down.The Far East posting gave forth to a vast diversity of tasks,which made it that much more of a never to be repeated experience. I hope you all enjoyed reading them as much as I have enjoyed relating them.
My final flights were as Krakatoa,bringing one home Tourex,when my original Calshot crew were tasked with bringing back SZ566 "Charlie via Glugor-China Bay-Korangi Creek-Bahrain-Fanara-Marsaxlokk-Pembroke Dock.without a single snag,she vitually purred. 2566 hours of unforgetable bliss.

[Union Jack]

Old Hairy

Absolutely marvellous - I thoroughly enjoyed the whole series of reminiscences and would like to thank you very much indeed for sharing them.

They brought back many memories of some of the places you visited, not least the Cocos Keeling Islands and meeting King Ross when passing through in an RNZAF aircraft en route from Singapore to Perth and on to Richmond.

You also had better luck than I did on your trip through rural Japan - I did mine in a prominently marked USN loaner with a chum and, when we got a bit lost on our way back to Yukosuka after climbing Fuji-san and then followed the detailed map we were given in a local "inn", it only took us about 20 years to work out that the reasons we eventually ended up at the local sewage farm were because a. we had followed the directions exactly b. our "guide" probably thought we were American! Oh yes, we did get the bath treatment in a small Japanese style hotel in Tokyo, but we shared it with an unusually shy Shirley Maclaine (whom we had previously met in HK), and no, she didn''t give us any Samurai awards!

As a direct result of your ripping yarns, I persuaded our skipper on a trip back from Cowes to Lymington last week to poke our noses into Calshot just to get a feel for the past. All too different now as I'm sure you know only too well.

With good wishes and renewed grateful thanks for sharing your memories.

Jack

[S'land]

Old Hairy:
Are we to take it that this is the last of the Sunderland stories? If so it is a great shame. The stories you have told so far have been absolutely fantastic, enjoyable and readable. Well done sir and thank you.

I have visited many of the places you mentioned, as a civilian, and only wish that I read your contribution before visiting them, it would have made the visits more interesting.

[Slats One]

Wonderful stuff

For an evocative half hour chat about flying boats- particularly the latter half of the programme, listen again via a log on to BBC Radio 4's web site, go to E for Excess Baggage, and then scroll down the right hand panel of programme picks. Just under half way down ( i think) you should find last November's Excess Baggage broadcast on Seaplanes and Flying boats - with some Africa memories.

Secondhand copies of Phillips Sims book about flying boats are easily found - Adventurous Empires. Well wroth buying.

Ah - and those collpasible sleeper type/day seats were on the C class craft forced into RAF service- original fittings.

[Tempsford]

Great thread. Very refreshing.

Thanks all.

Temps

[Warmtoast]

Old Hairy

Sad to see the last of your Sunderland tales, but doubtless you’ll find some more interesting anecdotes to keep us entertained!

Your mention of Car Nicobar brought back a few memories as it was a regular refuelling stop for the Changi-based 'Pigs' (Valettas) and RNZAF Bristol Freighters employed on the regular Changi – Negombo (Katunayake, Sri Lanka) run. They routed Changi – RAAF Butterworth – Car Nicobar – Negombo, and later when the crushed coral runway had been constructed at Gan, continued down there as part of the Negombo – Gan airbridge, when the frequency was upped to three a week. Until the WW2 crushed coral runway had been re-built at Gan, 205/209 Sqn Sunderlands detached to China Bay were responsible for keeping the initial contingent of RAF staff and Royal Engineers runway builders supplied with the essentials of life, mail and fresh produce etc. This meant two trips a week China Bay – Gan and return (Operation “Ships Flag”) and with the coral runway at Gan opening in January 1958 the twice weekly (later three times weekly) run to Gan was flown by Valettas and the occasional RNZAF Freighter detached to Negombo for this task. When RAF China Bay closed and the facilities were handed over to the Sri Lankan Air Force, the Sunderlands returned to Seletar.

I went through Car Nic a few times between 1956 – 1958 and don’t recall seeing or meeting any RAF Brits based on the island, refuelling was done by the locally-based Indian Air Force personnel. There was no terminal as such and on arrival pax disembarked and just hung around the aircraft to stretch their legs whilst it was being refuelled. Once refuelled we were off again ASAP.

[Old Hairy]

Ive had a ball!! First let me apologise to Whirlwind/Andycap for barging in on your story.You did say it would take you a couple of weeks to assemble the story of your mothers journey.Which I look forward to reading,especially as I have family association with Imperial Airways and S23's.

I would like to express my gratitude,in particular to S'Land for his encouragement and links to the Sunderland photographs at Hendon.Tony Hayes[Warmtoast] for his superb photographs and his experiences flying Sunderlands.Which added immeasurably to the story. all you other gentlemen for contributing associations with this era. From messages of encouragement and PM's it obviously struck a chord.
I am convinced of the old adage " Leave them wanting a bit more" I will be back.

[S'land]

Old Hairy:
Don't thank me, it is for me to thank you for the excellent stories. I enjoyed them very much indeed.

I do think that this thread and others like it, in aviation and other fields, bring a subject to life. My own fascination with Flying Boats started when I was young and my father told me about his trip on a C-Class Boat. Ever since I have read as much as I can find about them. However, it was the first hand experience that whetted my appetite. Yes, I have read technical publications about a large number of Boats, but have always found that for pure enjoyment there is nothing better, or more informative, than reading or listening to people who were actually involved.

[Brian Abraham]

Thank you all for your wonderful reminiscences. You may find the following web site on the C class Empire boats of interest. Aviation history ; Short C class Empire flying boat drawings & book (http://www.users.waitrose.com/~mbcass)

[XR362]

Old Hairy - Great anecdotes by the way - I have a disposition list of Sunderlands which shows Rochester-built Mk 5 RN269 as "Damaged on landing, Philippines 28/6/53 - SOC". This machine had belonged to 302 FTU, 230, 201 and 205 (from Sept 1950), though I have it down as coded M, rather than P. Might be a contender for your machine?
I think I got the crash info from "Last Take Off" by Colin Cummings, ISBN 0 9526619 3 4 (Nimbus Publising)

Hope this helps.
Paul

[India Four Two]

Old Hairy,

Let me add my thanks for taking the time to post your remeniscences. Great stories.

While doing some searching in connection the "What Aerodrome" thread, I came across this documentary about Sunderlands flying on the Berlin Airlift. Some great footage, but better watched with the sound down. A terrible soundtrack, even by the standards of the day:

YouTube - Short Sunderland Flying Boats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFH2OZD-TcU&NR=1)

Edited to add that I've just noticed that at 1:19 there is a brief glimpse of a civil registration G-AGIA, which GINFO tells me was a Sunderland Mk III, previously ML728. Who was the operator?

[S'land]

India Four Two:
Sunderland Mk III ML728 was allocated to BOAC from the production line at Rochester in 1943. She bore the civil registration G-AGIA. In October 1943 she inaugaurated the Poole to Lagos run.

[Old Hairy]

XR362, Thank you Sir ,mystery solved it was RN269,confirmed by Chas Bowyer's Sunderland Book.Although I am sure it was "P" as the previous month ,I was flying "M" all month and that was ML745. Every time aircraft came up the slip for Minor/Major,they were swapped between 88/205/209 and the hull letter changed.
Thank you also India 42. added to my ever growing memorabilia file.

[India Four Two]

Old Hairy,

Glad you liked it. I suspect you've seen a lot of the other Sunderland videos on YouTube, but here's two you might have missed.

B&W of the famous Sunderland touch and go at the opening of Wellington airport:
YouTube - sunderland fly past (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu2qxgtFvW8)

and some colour 8mm footage of the same airshow, that just misses both the Sunderland incident and the near crash of a 617 Squadron Vulcan:
YouTube - Opening of Wellington Airport, New Zealand, 1959 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp-HBypWY5M)

[StbdD]

Ran across this book which may be of interest to Sunderland people

The Sunderland: Flying-boat Queen. - Google Book Search (http://books.google.com/books?id=HUusFh6lQk4C&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=RAAF+Sunderland&source=web&ots=N-V0baqpIY&sig=BSkBT2C-m8J9C51AtEArZcAHhJM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA3,M1)

[andycap]

S'land and others,

Heretis. It's a 2MB pdf called Empire Journey. Press the orange Download File button!

Free file hosting by Savefile.com (http://www.savefile.com/files/1658392)

I'm still corresponding with the author and am hoping she can remember, among other things, the actual name of the boat...

andy

[India Four Two]

I've just stumbled onto this nice photo - two Sunderlands flying past the Royal Yacht Britannia

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/templates/britannia/images/gallery/contrib/plane.jpg

[Old Hairy]

Andycap.
Fascinating reading Sir.Throughly enjoyed. My father flew part of that route pre-war.Southampton to Durban.Alexandria to Port Bell down the Nile.
Thank you for sharing it with us.
Regards Old Hairy.

[S'land]

Andycap:
Thanks for the text. I have finally managed to read it, absolutely fascinating. My compliments to the authoress.

Old Hairy:
Welcome back, hope you had a nice holiday.

[whirlwind]

Having started the thread and not having taken much part in it, I'd like to thank you gentlemen, for such illuminating and well written accounts of boating times.

Happy landings!

[Old Hairy]

The Power of Pprune.

Its amazing that since posting my recollection of flying the Sunderland,I have had several memorable experiences.

I have been contacted by an old friend of 54 years ago and now in contact with several old squadron mates.

I have been invited to join the Goldfish Club,as apparently I am eligible for the Manila incident.

The icing on the cake.Yesterday I was invited by Trevor (Corsairoz) to the Solent Sky Museum for a conducted tour of the Sandringham (ex JM715).It was a memorable visit for me to sit on the flight deck and recall some of the old days. Thank you Trevor and the staff at Solent Sky who made us so welcome.I left with a big lump in my throat.

[B314]

What a wealth of experiences and it was a golden age of aviation according to passengers who flew on the boats! I've just come across the thread and will spend many an evening reading the accounts. I was too young to fly in the Sunderlands and before that the Pan Am Boeing 314s for which I also have an admiration.

I spent my childhood years on the island of Faial in the Azores from the late 1950’s, where the Clippers landed at the harbour in Horta en route from New York to Europe some 20 years earlier.

Sometime in the early 1960's I remember being fixed to the spot as I heard the thundering engines of a flying boat leaving the shelter of the harbour and heading out to sea for a take off. Unfortunately I can't remember much of the aircraft other than that it had 4 engines and was white in colour. I understand the Clippers had long since been lost or broken up by the early 50's so I wonder if I witnessed a Shorts departing perhaps for the UK?

I suppose it's unlikely that anybody will know (or recollect?!) but just in case, I thought I would post this.

There's also an edition of a series called "Speed Machines", once shown on Channel 4, entitled "Flying Boats" and the struggle to cross the Atlantic. The programme lasts an hour, features recollections by passengers and lots of footage, some of it previously unseen.

I recollect the series was made by a company called Flashback TV.

[Old Hairy]

I would hazard a quess that it was Aquila Airways.I know they operated a twice weekly service from Southampton to Funchal.Not aware of any other White,four engined flying boats around at that time

[B314]

Thanks Old Hairy, your guess is good enough for me and an answer after 40 odd years of wondering!

[WHBM]

I would hazard a quess that it was Aquila Airways.
Aquila went out of business at the end of 1958, shortly after their accident on the Isle of Wight. Their fleet was dumped in Lisbon for about 15 years afterwards until being scrapped.

Going through the Azores would be an obvious route for one of the very few Short boats being ferried across the Atlantic. Just a couple (the ones now in museums) did a handful of long range trips. All the other US and French large boats were gone by this time. When did the two Antilles Air Boats ones get ferried from New Zealand to the Caribbean ? I would have guessed after the early 1960s.

[Old Hairy]

WHBM,You are correct Sir, my error,as you say finished in 58. Ive eliminated JM715 and ML814 as they were at this time flying with either RNZAF or Ansett.ML814 is now in Florida with Kermitt Weeks amd JM715 with Solent Sky Museum. Howard Hughes bought three Solents,one of which is still in San Francisco.Could it have been them in transit back to USA?

[WHBM]

Error by me as well in saying the French boats were gone by this time, because I was just thinking of the French-manufactured boats. But the French Navy bought 19 Sunderlands from Shorts in the early 1950s and operated them until the early 1960s, so it could have been one of these roaming the Atlantic. Can't find a photograph of one on the web to see if they were white.

[Krakatoa]

Yes the French Navy Sunderlands were all white. Ref. page 138 of Chaz Bowyer book The Short Sunderland. ML 824 being escorted to Pembroke Dock by 201 Sqn Shackletons.

[matthewh]

The two Antilies Air Boats were ferried to the Caribbean in 1974 from Rose Bay in Sydney, not NZ.

[Fantome]

Ahhh . . . as Uncle Roger (Bacon) put it as caption to many timepieces in his Straight and Level page in "Flight International" . . . The sweet nostalgia of the never forgotten moment.

When VH-BRC Beachcomber was part of the fleet at Rose Bay, Sydney, I was an apprentice sheetmetal worker, mainly learning the trade on VH-BRF as it was converted from Sunderland to "Sundringham". Many times I'd sit up in BRC's wheelhouse, eating my lunch sangers and fantasising I was co-pilot to one of the gods who skippered these boats. Great shots, thanks Old Hairy.

Incidentally I'm in touch with Bryan McCook who is putting the finishing touches to his memoir of flying Cats and Sunderlands and HU-16s. He was with Antilles Air Boats at the time of Charles Blair's death and the later demise of the company.

[Old Hairy]

My pleasure fantome. Would welcome any information of how to obtain a copy of Bryan McCook's memoirs,when its published

[bluesafari]

I seem to recollect some years (?) ago there was a short series of articles in Aeroplane by an engineer who had worked down the route in various locations, very interesting reading, are the old Aeroplane mags available anywhere, were the articles ever made part of an autobiography?

As many people have commented, this thread has been brought alive by the many personal memories.

[Tempsford]

About 35 years ago, an old Sunderland Flight Engineer told me a story.

He was in the Med during the last war when the Sunderland he was flying in was attacked by a Vichy French Fighter. The aircraft was damaged and the fighter broke of the attack. The Sunderland set down on the sea and managed to get a tow back to a friendly port.

After the war, the French were taking Sunderlands and the Flight Engineer was now an Instructor. He was instructing some French pilots and noted that one of them had the Croix du Guerre. Being intersted, he asked the pilot how he had got it. The pilot was somewhat emabarassed, but eventually admitted that it was for shooting a Sunderland down.

The air changed and the Frenchman became very uneasy. Not wishing to create an International situation, the Flight Engineer asked where and when he shot the Sunderland down. The Frenchman confirmed the date and location and it transpired that it was the same Vichy pilot who has shot him down in the Med during the war.

The Flight Engineer then checked his log book for the aircraft serial number and then took an element of pleasure in informing the French pilot that the aircraft he shot down that day was the same one he was being instructed to fly.


The Flight Engineers name was Reg Baldwin, great guy.

My dad was a Fitter on Sunderlands, he told me of the tool belts they had so that they could tie their tools to them to reduce the chance of losing them in the water. It was said that long after the Flying Boats had gone, the old guys used to still wear their belts so that the others could tell that they had 'done their time' on Flying Boats.

Temps

[kms901]

Thank you, Old Hairy. Your stories have made my evening. Like many relative youngsters I missed that era, and your every word has increased my respect and affection for you and your compatriots.

God Bless You.

[matthewh]

I'm quite sure you were aware.
I was replying to the person earlier who asked when in the 1960's were they ferried from New Zealand.

[Old Hairy]

fantome.
Here is a blast from the past for you! Have a look at some of these photo's,you may recognise some of your work at Rose Bay.

VH-BRF Short S-25 Sandringham (http://www.aussieairliners.org/shortfb/vh-brf/vhbrf.html)

[whirlwind]

Following on from the start of this thread, I recently found these 2 pictures in my Mum's albums. These pics could have been taken in Lagos, but judging by the chronology of the albums, they were more likely in Cairo (?).

Can anyone tell me anything about this particular aircraft?

Dave

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t73/helicopterdcr/Sunderland/Sunderland1.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t73/helicopterdcr/Sunderland/Sunderland2.jpg

[India Four Two]

I've just come back from a day trip to Corregidor in Manila Bay and while looking for some pictures, I stumbled on this great shot, which should appeal to Sunderland fans.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/OverCorregidor.jpg

The Marlin is from VP 10 based in the Philippines, with an RAAF Neptune and an RNZAF Sunderland. In the foreground is Caballo Island and in the background is Corregidor.

The picture comes from a very nice site with pictures of Marlin operations in the Philippines and Vietnam http://home.earthlink.net/~patron40/ (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Epatron40/)

[240 Gardner]

Sunderland fans may also appreciate this new website, dedicated to the members of 95 Squadron:

RAF 95 Squadron Gambia (http://www.95squadron.webs.com)

[India Four Two]

On the Marlin website I referred to, there is a Sunderland link which takes you to

205/209 Squadron Sunderlands RAF Seletar pictures from aviation photos on webshots (http://community.webshots.com/album/35863241TEEChG/0)


286 pictures of Sunderland ops at Seletar.

[India Four Two]

Corsairoz,

Please check your PMs.

[Double Zero]

Unless I've missed it somewhere, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the Sunderland at IWM Duxford.

There is also some good if brief footage of a Sunderland in the film ' Yangtse Incident ', about HMS Amethyst.

As for the Sandringham - whatever Kermit Weeks has now, I remember it well at Calshot, made quite a stir among us yachties when it came out down the Solent for a run !

The sailing photographer Beken of Cowes took plenty of shots.

Old Hairy ( I'm guessing your callsign involves a certain rock near Studland ) you really should write a book, no joking, I think a lot of people here would agree.

Now something very sad, sorry about this but I think worth mentioning; sometime, I would guess late 1940's or 1950's, a number of Sunderlands ( so the story goes ) were in derelict state on moorings in Poole Harbour.

I cannot reason why, as the scrap value even then must have been significant, but they were towed out and scuttled in the relatively deep waters of Poole bay.

I'd think due to it being a lee shore and subject to strong tides, any salvage attempt would only find bits, but the area is very popular with divers so I'd have thought they may have something to add.

My dad was ashore from his boat at Studland in the mid 1980's and he ( lifelong aircraft engineer ) found a large aircraft wheel washed up...

On a happier note, a Sunderland is being recovered from where it sank at it's mooring in Wales, and another has been said to be found at the bottom of Loch Ness; a spray of WD40 and she'll be a flyer ?!

[Krystal n chips]

Double zero,

Just curious as to which part of Loch Ness the Sunderland has been located in.....any confirmation of the location at all please?

In the late 80's I participated in " Operation Deepscan".

Operation Deepscan (http://www.lowrance.com/en/About/History/Operation-DeepScan-Loch-Ness/)

Consequently, I am intrigued as to the possible location as I say because as well as the operation being a bio / ecological survey, it was pretty comprehensive in the area it covered......and Loch Ness is one very deep bit of water.

[Double Zero]

Krystal,

My apologies - I think brain-fade has set in, the stretch of water concerned may be Windermere, as I think Ambleside was mentioned.

The writer was very cagey about the exact position for obvious reasons, I'll try to find his post on Pprune a few months ago.

Discovery of a Wellington too was mentioned, which is probably where I got Loch Ness from; may be another in Windermere !

A side-scan image did seem to show a large aircraft, with as I recall one engine looking as if was drooping badly.

Like Loch Ness, I should think Windermere was quite appealing ( especially for a flying boat ) for a forced landing compared to the surrounding terain...

There was also mention of a Sunderland factory on the shore opposite Ambleside ?

So it may have sunk through something happening ( or neglect ) while in boat mode...

[Aerials]

This might shed some more light onto the subject: Sunderlands on Windermere - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89718&highlight=windermere)

[Double Zero]

I think all the above negative comments are probably right; but with a Sunderland factory nearby, and as aforesaid the attraction of a forced landing onto the lake ( by any aircraft type ) compared to stuffing into the nearby hills seems a reasonable prospect, I would be surprised if there are not any aircraft down there.

[Old Hairy]

Double Zero.
I think you are confusing my nom-de-plume,with the "Old Harry" rocks;)
"Old Hairy" has a diferent meaning.
As for writing a book!!! I did cobble together a version of my formative years,but its not of sufficient interest to any publisher. If you have not yet discovered "Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII" on the Military Pilots Forum,I would recommend it for some superb stories,far more interesting than mine,and its still ongoing.Im certain you would enjoy it.

If they do manage to reconstitute the PD Sunderland with WD40.You can give me a rub down with the same and I'll give it a crack:ok:

[Double Zero]

Hello Old Hairy,

I've had better offers in my time than rubbing down an ex-RAF bloke with WD40, but if things really do get that bad, and I'm not handed a bottle of whisky & revolver, I suppose it may be a go-er !!!

Let's hope the Sunderland/s ( and anything else underwater ) are recoverable.

DZ

[obnoxious]

There is one at RAF Hendon and I think it is sectioned so you can see the accomodation inside. It did look cosy. Oops sorry it was a walk throughhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/bah.gifand one can only peer through the "portholes" now. I think?

[Cat.S]

"I think all the above negative comments are probably right; but with a Sunderland factory nearby, and as aforesaid the attraction of a forced landing onto the lake ( by any aircraft type ) compared to stuffing into the nearby hills seems a reasonable prospect, I would be surprised if there are not any aircraft down there"

I would be fairly surprised if there were any aircraft down there. I've been using side scan sonar on the Lake for nearly a year now and although I've found over 40 wrecks, none of these are aircraft (or parts of aircraft) and apart from the almost certainly incorrect local rumour about a sunken part-built Sunderland, there are no other stories about aircraft in the Lake. I can say with 100% confiidence that the area around White Cross Bay is aircraft free. The closest I've got to a Sunderland connection is the wreck below, which I suspect may be one of the Sunderland maintenance barges.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/S00117-1.png

[henry crun]

A lot of work ahead here; some years back I remember reading that this fuselage section was being used as a chook house.
Chatham Islands' historic lifeline comes together... | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/national/3483518/Chatham-Islands-historic-lifeline-comes-together)

[Miss Ambra]

I have used the Search key and haven't found this announced.
The Sunderland thread looks like the best place to post:

The whole colour print of The Ships That Flew by Tim Read (Film Australia 1974) has been released on DVD by Chevron Marketing in Sydney.

What a pleasure to see this film at last in full colour and complete - earlier prints were severely washed-out - or just as severely edited.

Where else could you see Captain Maundrell AFC take a sunshot on the way to Lord Howe island? Just one of the many moments in this remarkable film with readings from P. G. Taylor and music by P. Telemann.

Kudos to Chevron!

www.chevron.com.au (http://www.chevron.com.au)

No commercial interest, just a love of film making and aviation

Miss Ambra

[pasir]

The following was told to me some years ago by an AC2 'erk' type
who had worked on Sunderlands during WW2.
He told me that one day while working on a Sunderland moored in Southampton waters a small motor launch approached to tie up alongside to discharge a small jolly looking Air Commodore
or similar high rank who alighted from the launch and climbed up into
the Sunderland as smart salutes were exchanged - The A/Comm
then 'wandered around and had a little poke around here and there' and
then made ready for his departure. Again smart salautes were exchanged
as the A/comm backed down the ladder.

Unfortuneatly he was not aware that his launch had moved away -
and one red faced no longer smiling A/comm was fished out of
Southampton water.

Brian ex G BCVI

[Old Hairy]

Pasir, I rather feel he was shooting you a line !!
Normal access was via the front door,which when moored is a step down from the launch.The rear door,never used it once in three years on the Sunderland.again does not need a ladder. The only ladder ever used ,was the mooring ladder clipped on the port side of the bow,to allow a crew member to grab the mooring strop off the buoy. It was then stowed inboard.Groundcrew working on the aircraft would use the front door as the front turret would be in the forward position on the trots.
He may of course been so enthralled to visit the Queen of the Skies, he stepped into space ?? Alternately,and to ruin the story,it happened ashore,when a ladder was used to access the front door. In which case he would have broken his bloody legs !! Smartly saluting erks !! I smell a porky.

[pasir]

Nice to hear from you Hairy - Yes there is every possibility that
the story of the Air Comm type taking a swim in Southampton waters was
a porky however to be fair to him it was I that embelished the tale by assuming that a ladder would have been used - also adding the word 'smart' to 'salutes' - I may also have been unfair by describing him as
an 'erk' when in fact for all I know he could well have been a skilled
competent and respected ground flight engineer.

On another tack some years ago in my business I found myself in
the office of a Vicar somewhere down in the West country. As he sat
at his desk I noticed the framed photo of a Sunderland on his wall
- not what one would expect to find in the average parsonage. Turning to the vicar - a small slight elderly man who seemed no more than 5ft I pointed to the photo and queried why was the photo on his wall - Turning his head towards the photo he said "Oh - thats my old Sunderland" - It transpired that this small and seemingly meek mild man of god in earlier years had piloted Sunderlands somewhere in the Biscay on anti U-boat patrols !

[240 Gardner]

Pasir

I don't suppose you recall the name of the vicar in question? My father flew similar patrols, and I wonder if this is someone with whom he coincided.

[pasir]

Sorry 240 Gardner - Too many many years have gone by for me to recall the name of the vicar.

I hope the following will be of interest to flying boat enthuisiasts -Sometime around 1947 there was a major incident involving the American equivilant of a Sunderland - forced to ditch in mid atlantic with some 62 or more on board.


The event is a sorry tale of pilot and navigator error involving
overloading, inadequate fuel and extra strong headwinds. The Bermuda Sky Queen (Boeing 314) flying boat was on route from Foyles Ireland - States bound but shortly after passing the USS BIBB about mid atlantic
was forced to turn back and alight alongside the Bibb in heavy seas -
where an oil slick had been laid. The hull of the Boeing at first seemed to have been totally immersed in the heavy seas - being very lucky to have
remained afloat under the conditions. The crew of the ship had to make severa attempts to rescue all 62 or so including children and 2 babes in arms. The event is described in detail in at least one book and can be googled under Bermuda Sky Queen



(Epilogue - about one year ago one of the rescued children - now an adult - made contact on the web seeking further information and contacts with any other survivors still alive as I beleive she was hoping to write a book on her experiences)

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Whirlwind - Pls Let Me Know If You Still Want Any Info On The Shorts Flying Boats Have Heaps Of Tech Data + Websites + Shots - It Probably Was A Pre War Design 'c' Or Empire Class Purely Civil Boat , Not A Sunderland - Ta J.c.

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Bud - Affirmative They Were Very Similar To Std. R.a.f. Mk V - And Same Basic Color Scheme - Mostly White - I Served Apprentiship At Shorts Belfast In 1952-7 On Sunderland / Solent / Sandringham / Seaford / Sealand Flying Boats Etc- Thanx J.c.

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Old Hairy - Many Thanx For Excellent Bunch Of Shots - This Boat As You Would Know Has Been Butchered By So Many Outfits As To Remain Nothing Like A Sunderland Mk V - A Great Pity - It Would Be Wonderful To See It Retrofited Back To The Great Sunderland That You And I Worked On - Me At Shorts Belfast In 52 - 57 - Much Obliged J.c.

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Bud - Thats A Mk Iii Sunderland - No Radar Scanner Domes Under The Wingtips - Only Fixed Asv Antennae - Thats All Ai Know - Sorry J.c.

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Hairy - You Are Quite Right - We Retrofitted These Sunderlands At Shorts Belfast In 1952 - For R.n.z.a.f. - With New Pilot Remote Control Collins T/r In Modern Al. Tube Rackmounts - No More Radio Op. Timber Desk Bulkhead - That Involved Fitting Another H.f. Antenna Mast + D.f. Loop Fairing - Also Other Mods Like Windows In Both Doors To Give Emergency Access To Axe + Fire Extinguisher - Thanx J.c.

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Pasir - No B.314 Survived - But There Is An Outfit Who Are Dedicated To Try To Recover That Boat Or Another One - There Also Is A Very Fine Replica Hull At Foynes - The Old Flying Boat Base In S. Ireland - Ta J.c.

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Andy Cap - I Am In Syd. - Am Retd A+p - Worked On Most Shorts Flying Boats At Shorts Belfast - Inc. Sunderland / Sandringham / Solent / Sealand - But That Was In 1952 - Long After The 'c' Class Had Operated - The Sunderland First Flew In 1937 - Same As Me - So Mum Could Have Been On An R.a.f. One - If I Can Assist Further Pls Ask - I Have Large Amount Of Shots / Tech Data On Flying Boats Here - Ta J.c.

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Hairy - I Like Yr Memory On Details On The Sunderland - Amazing - You Are So Accurate - I Can Remember Lots As I Helped Build Them At Shorts Belfast . I Would Encourage You To Write That Book Or Supply Yr Notes To A Writer . Had An Old Buddy Here - Geoff Wikner - Who Did Just About Every Thing In Aviation - Inc. Piloting / Designing / Building Airplanes In The Early Days Here + In U.k. In Wwii - Was Also In The Ferrypilots Org. - He Did Not Trust Anyone With His Notes While He Was Alive - The Resultant Book Is One Of The Worst I Have Ever Read On Aviation - Full Of Inaccuracies . Pls Do It Now ? - Have Pilots Manual On Mk V - Can't See How To Inc. A Shot Of It Here On This Website Tho - Pity - Happy To Send A Copy To You If You Like - Thanx J.c.

[andycap]

Thanks Gummipuffer. Last year I was researching a story for family history purposes about my Mum's posting to the Middle East Command in 1941 as a WRAF codes and ciphers operative. It was based on a record compiled by one of her contemporaries which described their Sunderland (or Empire) flying boat journey across Africa from Lagos to Cairo. I did find quite a few Sunderland pics and sufficient technical data for the account but not what I really wanted. This was to identify the the actual flying boat my Mum flew in (departed Lagos 1 Sep 1941), get a picture of it, perhaps the names of its pilots and what eventually happened to it. Bit of a tall order I know!

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi Bud - I Found In The History Of Shorts Book - That The B.o.a.c. 'c' Class Empire Type Boats Started Ops. On The Lagos - Cairo Route From July 1941 - But Were Camo Finish To Look Like Sunderlands - Presumably As They Were Unarmed - And That Might Frighten The Luftwaffe Off ! Clare - Champion - Cathay Were On That Route - So Thats Why There Maybe Confusion As To Whether It Was A Sunderland Or 'c' Class Boat Yr. Mum Was On - B.o.a.c. Boats Were Manned By Civil Aircrew - Brave Lads I Think - How Else May I Best Assist You ? -ta J.c.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

Regarding the Sandringham at Solentsky Museum in Southampton, UK, I flew as a passenger in that flying-boat back in 1974. It is a Sandringham Mk.4 that was originally rebuilt from a Sunderland Mk.III by Shorts & Harland of Belfast for Tasman Empire Airways Ltd (TEAL), now Air New Zealand, in 1947 for service on the trans-Tasman Auckland-Sydney route. In 1950, TEAL sold the Sandringham to Barrier Reef Airways in Australia, then it eventually passed to BRA's parent company, Ansett who operated it on the Sydney-Lord Howe Island route. In 1974 when I was living in Sydney, Ansett flew several non-scheduled flights to mark the end of their flying-boat services and I (along with a couple of friends) went on one of those flights. We flew to a lake a couple of hours inland from Sydney (although I cannot remember the name of the lake all these years later) and after landing on the lake and being taken ashore by boat for lunch at a local hotel, we reboarded the Sandringham and flew back to Rose Bay, Sydney. I remember Ansett had a second flying-boat, a Sunderland Mk.5 that they had purchased from the RNZAF and converted into an airliner. I understand that is the Sunderland that is now owned by Kermit Weeks in Florida.

There is also an ex-RNZAF Sunderland Mk.5 in pieces on the Chatham Islands (east of New Zealand), that the locals are trying to put back together for display purposes. See the following thread at another messageboard.....

Wings Over New Zealand - Chatham Island Sunderland - recent photos (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Airshows&action=display&thread=2447)

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Hi KTJ - Yr answer is accurate - which is great , so many folks get all mixed up between the older Shorts 'C' class / Sunderland / Sandringham + Solent flying boats .
Thanx for link to R.N.Z.A.F. -Sunderland mk v+ -----they were my customer in later yrs for aircraft eqpt.
The R.A.F. Sunderland MK V was modded by us to R.N.Z.A.F. std. in 52/4 - so it is important that no one tries to copy the flight deck of the R.A.F. ones - on that one at M.O.T. or Chatam Is.
Happy to assist in any way i can - J.C. IN SYDNEY .

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

The New Zealand Herald newspaper have, over the past couple of weeks, been publishing a series of articles in their weekly travel supplement written by one of their travel journalists who recently visited the Chatham Islands, about two hours flying time (by Convair 580 of Air Chathams) east of the NZ mainland islands.

Yesterday, they published an article about the ex-RNZAF Short Sunderland Mk.V that locals are planning to restore and turn into an aviation museum. The article was accompanied by two photographs. You can access the article online here....

Chatham Islands: Re enacting air adventures - Travel - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=10691026)


Also on the NZ Herald's website is an image gallery containing nine colour photographs (including the two published with the print version of the article), with some of the photographs being historic images of when the holed Sunderland was pulled out of the Te Whanga Lagoon (where it had run aground) onto the land....

Reassembling Chatham Island's aviation history - Travel - NZ Herald Pictures (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/image.cfm?c_id=7&gal_cid=7&gallery_id=115512#7217443)

The historic photographs are amazing!

[GUMMIPUFFER]

Good morning folks - thanx for that info - i dont know how they are going to get a reasonable looking musem going with so few components - the boat is completely gutted just like it came out of the jigs . Maybe the guys know where some of them are . If they start fitting incorrect components it will look terrible . I dunno why anyone would rip out the 2 x pilots seat supports for instance - covering up the chainsaw / blowtorch cuts will be a headache - alignment will be critical -best to have an A+P rivet joining gusset al. alloy plates over them i guess - all the best J.C.

[henry crun]

GUMMIPUFFER: As I mentioned in my post #127, it was used as a chook house for many years, maybe the chooks had trouble using the seats and supports so they were ripped out and roosting perches put in their place. :)

[Hedfan eto]

Hi Gummpuffer ................. I am a volunteer, working on the Sunderland Flying Boat project in Pembroke Dock NW Wales UK. ( see Sunderland Trust (http://www.sunderlandtrust.org.uk/) ) I am delighted to say that from your posting, I have been able to identify in more detail the external rear Door, which, along with other parts, was given to us by the UK Duxford RAF museum. We knew that it came from a RNZAF boat but never new the history of the Axe and Fire Extinguisher cut out modifications. Thanks to you it's all clear now, so many thanks.

On occasions we have parts that have been brought up by our diver's that we are unable to readily identify. With your first hand knowledge I was hoping that you may be able to help us identify these mystery parts quicker. If I contacted you with any future details or perhaps some photo's, either direct or through this site you could help us. Many Thanks ... he

[Old Hairy]

Sadly, I have heard this morning of the death of Capt. Vic Hodgkinson,

who died in his sleep on the 20th. at the age of 94: Vic was the last of our BOAC FB Captains

that served at Poole, and will be fondly remembered for being the leading light in the setting

up of Solent Sky Museum, and for the acquisition of the Southern Cross as its prime exhibit

- which was then renamed again Beachcomber, as it appears today…



Vic trained prewar out in Australia with various aircrews of the Qantas Empire C-Class FBs

and during WW2 served with distinction on RAAF 10 Squadron on Sunderland Flying Boats

at RAF Mount Batten and Pembroke Dock etc. (and later on Catalinas in the Pacific arena).

[zed3]

Old Hairy... just discovered your thread, many thanks for your stories, much enjoyed. Always been interested in flyingboats but being a Mancunian born 1950 never really seen the old school fleet. Flown in a Mallard and Lake Buccaneer in Aus. but that's about it. 41 years in ATC and visiting in Buckler's Hard next summer so shall visit the Solent museum. Wonderful and Thank You.
Zed.

[pasir]

Hedfan eto - Regarding your search in Pembroke docks and
problems identifying parts - although I expect you will be
aware of this nevertheless I will mention that Catalina PBYs also operated from Pembroke - just in the event that some parts may be of Catalina origin - although no doubt you will have taken this into account.

Its strange how sometimes one can know a person assumed to have led an ordinary hum drum life - only to discover otherwise - As I found out
when an old friend I had known for years - an Arthur Daly replica - one day by chance disclosed that he had been the pilot of a Catalina during the war - patrolling over enemy infested seas over Biscay - as he produced a full size photo of himself crew and Cat. taken at Pembroke Dock !

...

[brakedwell]

My first flight was in a Sunderland from Pembroke Dock during a CCF summer camp in 1953. I remember at least two eight hour plus (daylight) patrols over the Western Approaches, cooking eggs, bacon and sausages on the galley primus stove, watching the world (sea!) go by from the rear turret and shivering in the draughty front turret. On one trip we flew to Belfast, landed in the harbour and taxied over to Shorts. We were tied up against the dock for long enough to load quite a number of spare parts before returning low level to Pembroke Dock.

That was the year I caught the flying bug. :ok:

[Hedfan eto]

Pasir ............. Thanks for your reply and it was great to hear the story about your mate flying Cat's.

As a trust we are aware of the Catalina's that flew out of Pembroke Dock. The parts that we sometimes have trouble identifying straight away are those which have been brought up from our wreck site. As well as being covered in crud etc., they are often found next to the wreck by the divers, or they have, in time, fallen off from one of the engines etc.. If you are interested in what we are up to in sunny Pembrokeshire then click here.... Sunderland Trust (http://www.sunderlandtrust.org.uk/)

again thanks for your reply .. hedfan eto

[RicardoS]

I was wondering if anybody flew with or knew my father George G Stead? I am reviewing his memoirs and would like some additional information.

Thank you in anticipation.

[willjones]

Have come across the forum, thought members might be interested. My father was a Sqn Ldr on these planes there latter WW2. I have photos somewhere of the planes and misc. He was luckily picked up from a 'ditch' but not sure if ex Sunderland. Cant recall too many stories but he did say it took an enormous distance to get it to lift off in that climate especially under certain weather conditions.

My late uncle WCdr Peter Berry DFC also flew them for a while incl from Pembroke Dock '50s but may have only been short posting.

I also have a goodsized liveried handcarved model of the plane which may have been made by one of the ground crew or the local Nigerian 'help'. Due to the ravages of time it needs a tailfin and 2 floats. Any kind offers to fix that?
Will Jones

[willjones]

Just in case not previously mentioned. I have just also remembered that a couple of months ago I noticed a Mrs Judith Shingler has been giving the odd lecture on the Lake District etc manufacture/maintainence of Sunderlands etc, at various historical socs in that region over the few years plus 1 or 2 upcoming. Lectures were searchable on the web. Not sure if she still to be found Kendal area, hope useful to somebody.
Will Jones

[N5748E]

Good thread you have here. My grandfather flew sunderlands in the war with 201st Squadron. His logbook mentions some places such as castle archdale, calshot, and also seletar in Singapore. If I can dig it up I'll scan it and put it online.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I can't find any reference to this on the Site but I found this while looking at something completely different; PICTURES: Wreckage of flight W3998 found 70 years after crash | This is Cornwall (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/PICTURES-Wreckage-flight-W3998-70-years-crash/story-19831711-detail/story.html#axzz2hnjYRBs6)


The final resting place of a lost Second World War allied warplane has been revealed – thanks to a chance discovery by a former Royal Navy clearance diver. Dive charter boat skipper Danny Daniels, a former Joint Services chief diving instructor, who taught Prince Harry to dive – found the twisted remains of the Sunderland bomber off Plymouth Sound, Devon, during a routine drift dive


The full article is worth the read, if only to see "local" journalism at its best.

[Stuart E]

Hi - read this thread with great interest - isn't it marvellous to gain the recollections and insight about these great aircraft from those that flew or maintained them?


Anyway, looked through and could not find this video mentioned - found it on youtube - not mine - but hopefully it will be of interest to some on here...... There are some extremely clear shots of the Sunderlands of 230 Sqdn in 1952 - in colour, too!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLIq9-uEEM

[Exnomad]

When on navigators course, one of the others was an ex Sunderland flight engineer. He regretted its passing, very civilised aeroplane, actually had a galley.

[Stuart E]

And another video from YouTube - showing some good details of some areas not often glimpsed while showing the work of the armourers when bombing-up (and disarming!) the Sunderland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGNOFFcwH-I

[Proplinerman]

Photo from my collection: https://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/21237826908/in/photolist-w9VRqP-w9VUQp-8ZcxLw-fw7CRp-fw7Cna-p346um-yE4j5D-ymHq2s-ymGhaj-yDjasD-vpYAxD-xEuakf-wrqP6F-wwMeuG-yy6ugo-w7FnJh-yGZocm-wz7b54-yDzNSe-dRJ1Ry-dRNCha-jfnDiS-cztz33-dJ4G3e-91n1U3

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

More on the Sunderland hulk on the Chatham Islands....


Chatham Islands resident has WWII flying boat in backyard | TVShows | Newshub (http://www.newshub.co.nz/tvshows/story/chatham-islands-resident-has-wwii-flying-boat-in-backyard-2016121319)