Advice on my path please??

[JohnGV]

Hi all,

Im 24 yrs old, 0 hrs, absolutely sooo keen to become a pro pilot.

I am flying out to Victoria, Vancouver Island on july 8th this year where i am going to start training for my PPL (intensive, funds all available) with Victoria Flying Club.

My plan once finished is to return to the UK and save the funds required for my CPL the followig summer.

My aim, eventually, would be to advance into the airline industry.

This, I am fully aware may take me some time. due to the fact that I am doing it all in stages over the next 10 yrs.

My plan was that once i had my CPL i would try to get employment with a small taxi-based or frieght company flying just complex singles or siiliar. Then eventually once built up enough hrs, hopefully a company would hold enough stock in me to put me forward for extra essential training i.e IFR, Multiiengine etc.

I dont have a good credit history due to a misused adolescence! My school GCSE's were poor, so this would disable me from taking a more academic or credit funded route. My maths abiloity is also not great so not one of my strong points, however, i am capable.

I am obviously a complete wannabe at this stage so would welcome any advice or help any one can offer.

Thanks in advance,
John

[JohnGV]

thought id add - my age on my post conflicts with my age on profile. 24 in couple of weeks!

john

[redsnail]

A couple of things you can do.

Take the GAPAN aptitude tests to see if you have the raw ability and do a medical if you've never done one. The Class one is expensive so you could either just do it or review the requirements (JAR FCL-3 I think). Main things to look for is diabetes and acceptable vision.

[Jumbo744]

I think, go for it, or you will always regret it. Don't ask yourself too much questions, just go. I'm 24 and I have the chance of having the funds so I'll be done in less than a year. Before that, I thought money was more important than doing what you like, I had a business, making money but wasn't that happy, everyday I had regrets not being a pilot. Now I am extremely happy doing my training, it's a dream coming true, I can't believe soon I will get paid to fly! Go for it!

[willt]

If you realy want to do it,and I mean really want to, then you should do it.

I'm 38 and never persued flying in my 20's because I always found an excuse, (had a stable job, couldn't afford the training blah blah). I'm now 38 and stuck in a job I hate, you don't want to spend the rest of your career saying if only. Go for it

[Nashers]

not many places will pay for your MEP/ IR. at best you may get a type rating but thats it. if you intend to go into air taxing or somthing like that the companys are usualy small and dont want to invest in training other than what they have to (ie aircraft checkout).

do a 1st class medical before you start anything as if you fail that and you have started training alreaady you will have wasted all that money.

before you start you CPL you will have to do your ATPLs theory and your 150 hours hours building. to get a uk CPL you will need an ICAO ppl so make sure whatever you do is accepted where you intend to carry on your training and also where you want to work.

if you intend to go into the jets at some point you will have to make sure you finish you IR before your ATPLS expire (3 years after your last exams i think)

[JohnGV]

Thanks every1, especially nashers!

I'm still not entirely clued up on it all. I would like to do my cpl nxt year an get into a paid job just flying singles asap.

Nashers, do i have to do my 150 hrs hours building before i embark on my cpl or can these be incorporated in my cpl syllabus?

I would like to end up in australia but was hoping this career choice to be one that would allow me freedom to be nomadic, like living 2yrs in australia, canada etc.

is this more complicated than i thoght - due to each countries individual licences and standards?

Once i have my PPL - hopefully around october time, I will have no funds, thus meaning i will have to start saving over the winter for the following steps - what could you advise my most efficient next steps would be.

I have a class 1 canadian medical on the way now which i had done 2 weeks ago.

Once again thanks for all the advice!

John

[Nashers]

what i decided to do was all my flying from my first ppl hour to when i finish my IR in the uk. it is more expencive but in the end atleast for me i think its the better choice as the airspace is alot more restricted here.

if you intend to finaly get into a jet job you must compleate your IR in a multi engine aircraft within the 3 years of the ATPLs (the CPL must also be compleated 3 years from finishing your ATPLs). single engine IRs are not very useful for jets.

if you have enough money, i suggest you do your ppl (if you do it here you will be able to fly cross channel in a G reg aircraft) so you can fly once every couple of weeks or somthing and build up your hours that way. what i did was as soon as i finished my ppl i went into my atpls and did some flying during the weekends to keep myself current. i then finished of my hours building (you CANNOT start your cpl without 150 TOTAL flown hours) and went direct into my CPL. when it comes to licence issue you will need 100 hours PIC though.

if money is a bit tight for you right now what you can do is do your ppl then just buy the books for your atpls (which do cost a bit) but dont join to a course. that way you can study for your atpls then when you are ready, join a distance learning course for the brush ups and sit the exams. dont forget though the whole atpl course is soon to change to EASA system so no one knows how much change is expected.

as for moving from country to country i know the uk licence is widely accepted all over for a direct convert but not the other way around. its best you do your reasurch before putting your money down anywhere as only you know what you plan to do and where you want to work.

as for your 1st class medical, if you intend to do your cpl here for a uk issue one you will need a uk 1st class medical. bear in mind each country has different standards for passing...

[wbryce]

If your going to spend large amounts of cash then the first thing to really do is get your class one medical just to be sure no unforeseen circumstances arise. It will save you a little bit of cash as when the class 1 expires it reverts to a class 2 medical.

[Adios]

JohnGV,

Here is what most people on the Modular route do:

1. Get an ICAO PPL (Canada is ICAO, so your Vancouver plan is fine).

2. Build hours to 150 by solo hire - You can't do a JAA CPL before 150 total time.

3. Complete ATPL theory (You could do 9 CPL theory exams, but then later you will have to do all 14 ATPL exams, so just do them to start with). You get 18 months maximum from passing the first exam until you must pass the last one. You then get 3 years to complete your CPL and Instrument Rating. You can do ATPL theory by distance learning or on a full time classroom course.

4. Complete a CPL course. At this point you could fly for pay, but it is unlikely you can find a job yet as your hours will be too low for most employer's insurance companies to cover you.

5. Get a Multi-engine piston rating. Some FTOs offer a Multi-engine CPL course, which might save you some funds due to a combined ME/CPL check flight.

6. Complete an IR course. You'll be close to 250 hours by now and should be insurable in some flying jobs.

The next step could be any of the below:

7. Seek work flying single pilot piston aircraft, single or multi-engine. Things such as sky-diver driver, aerial photography, etc. come to mind. Forget air ambulance work until you have more hours.

8. Become a flight instructor.

9. Complete an MCC course and seek a job as an airline First Officer. You might find the only jobs available require you to fund your own Type Rating to the tune of £20-25K. If you have it, fine. If you don't, do step 7 or 8 instead. Eventually, you will need to do the MCC course, but it might be best to do it just before an airliner Type Rating course.

Finally, you can do the hour building to 150 before, during or after CPL or ATPL theory, or any combination of the three. Most people do it before.

[SpamCanDriver]

Hey buddy just wanted to say good luck as I'm from down Horsham way aswell. I definately agree with the advice you've been given although the industry isnt exactly in great shape at the the mo, if youre planning on taking a few years you might just come out at the right time. I was lucky and started and got sponsored to learn to glide when I was 17 and comleted my PPL in florida shortly after. As far as funding goes I was tight on that aswell I managed to save alot of money by going modular with Oxford and doing the groundschool distance learning while working at Tesco's in Broadbridge Heath haha. :}
Im damn glad I went for it as I even got to live in Malaysia for my first job which was an experience at the wise old age of 20:E.
Im currently flying the 757/767 and get to go to quite a few nice places and even get to stay there a few days.
Good luck anyways buddy!

[Leezyjet]

I did my PPL and most of my hour building overseas, saved me a fortune and I can still fly a G reg a/c here on the ICAO license with only minor restrictions.

If you are intending to do your CPL/ME/IR in the UK, save the last 30 hours or so of your hour building and do it here, as the airspace is quite complex and that should be enough time for you to cover most things and get familier with it before moving on.

Oh and it's not been mentioned so far, but you also need a Night Rating before you can start the CPL too. Thats only a short course though and is probably the cheapest part of the training !!!

:}

[Canada Goose]

A couple of pointers …….

1. If you are hoping at some point to work in Canada (and I’m sure the same will apply for Oz) you will need a work visa or permanent resident visa. To get a work visa for flying will be neigh on impossible which means you’ll need a permanent resident visa. This is a timely process (at least 1 year) and works on a points system of which you need to get the required amount of points and unless you are a professional; e.g. engineer, you’ll be unlikely to meet the requirements. Ten years ago it costs about $1500. However, if one of your parents is Canadian then you’ll automatically be granted Canadian citizenship so all the above goes out the window and you’ll be able to walk straight in and start working!

2. For commercial operations e.g. air taxi you will need the MEIR. A few exceptions include instructing, crop spraying, float planes etc.

Good luck with it all. Don’t worry about the maths too much it’s not that difficult. 24 is a good age to get into it. I concur with most of the posts above.

CG.

[belleh]

Re: Australia, last time I checked, their SOL (Skilled Occupation List), being a FI was on there but only valid if you find an employer willing to sponsor you (as opposed to direct entry, find a job later.) If emmigrating to Australia, Canada, etc is something you're serious about, you might want your 'Plan B' career to be something that's recognised as a skilled professional job in either country, then you'd be more likely to get permenant residancy (and later citizenship) on the back of that.

Also, last time I checked (please research this yourself and don't take my word as gospel), learning French to a fluent standard (reading, writing, speaking & listening) will add 10 extra points to your Canadian application. So perhaps it's worth biting the bullet and learning French (either night school or Rosetta Stone software) if you don't speak it already, those 10 extra points may swing it your way!

Finally, I'd just mention (and here's something I am getting out of my depth with, so definite research required) that to fly commercially in Australia, you need to do some kind of CASA conversion from JAA, and some kind of extra air law exams. No doubt others will be able to shed more light in that area.

[angusr]

Further information re Australia.. you do need to eligable for permanent residency as already mentioned. You will also need to do some conversion exams for your ATPL, as well as flight tests for any flight quals/ratings you may have such as CPL/ME/IR and get a CASA class 1 medical.

I have been looking at the option also. If you use the below link it will take you to the CASA website and give you all the relevant info you should need for flying in Oz.

http://www.casa.gov.au/pilots/index.htm

Good luck.

[JohnGV]

So,

Adios,

I dont understand the whole ATPL stuff. Do I HAVE to get ATPL to be able to do things like aerial photography, sky diving, airtaxi?

I was under the novice impression that this was only if i wanted to fly for the airlines that i had to have ATPL.

If i wanted to do the kind of work listed you mentioned in your post - what ratings and licences do i HAVE to have. I dont suppose you have any idea also what the pay margins for a job like this would be?

Last year I met the chief pilotof salt spring air which operate out of vancouver island and he said that he became a payed pilot in 2 years - I thought i understood this to be just his PPL and CPL and then he was in a payed job?

Thanks to every1 for replying so far you been very helpful, sorry for the late response i lost this thread and then Nashers found it for me - Thanks!

Johngv

[redsnail]

You can do CPL subjects in JAA land but you'll also have to do the IR subjects. For some strange reason the sum of those 2 topics is greater than the 14 JAA ATPL exams.

Note, the exams do lapse if you don't keep your IR current etc.
Until you have the hours and pass an LST, you still have a CPL.

In Oz (and other countries), you do your CPL subjects for the CPL and the ATPL subjects for the ATPL. Irex paper for the instrument rating.

[Nashers]

if you intend to go into a jet job in the future, the only choice you have is to do:


ppl, fATPL, hours build, CPL, ME, IR, MCC then decide what sort of job you want and keep your ratings valid.

if you dont do it in that order you run the risk of your ATPLs expiring before getting an IR for example.

[alexanderbax]

Some interesting points posted here to doing a modular course over a number of years.

Just one thing I was wondering though, what exactly has to be done to keep your qualifications valid? For instance, if you were to go modular and completed all the ratings right up to MCC you would then be eligible for a jet job. But if you did not get one straight away (and assuming it has taken you 3-4 years to get to that point in the first place) how do you then go about continuing working in something other than aviation, but keeping your ratings valid while continuing the search for a jet job? What are the CAA requirements to do this? And is it expensive to keep your license valid, as I guess in the current climate it could take some time to find a job!

[JohnGV]

Nashers,

Say i didnt want to mayb aspire to a jet job. Say i would want to just do like Flying singles doing aerial photography, airtaxi or similiar.

Would i find it very difficult to get a job on just a CPL without ATPL? or am i missing the point entirely. to have a CPL do i HAVE to have done the ATPL exams. Do i also HAVE to have IR to be a paid pilot even if i was to fly in a job where i was only required to fly VFR?

Sorry, I really dont want to seem stupid im just finding it difficult to understand all this as i hear conflicting versions.

Just to clarify, I'd probably be likely to spend the next 10 years or so living ad working in Canada as i have dual citizenship.

Thanks for all your continued help everyone.

[Adios]

JohnGV,

I can't help regarding Canadian licenses, which is what you'll need to work there.

In Europe, you could do aerial photo work in VFR conditions with just a CPL. It's probably the same in Canada and definitely so in the US.

I guess the main reason everyone writes about taking it further is because they probably think most people won't be satisfied with that sort of flying job for very long.

To get accurate advice, you probably need to be very specific about the sort of jobs you seek and where you plan to work as well as where you have the right to live and work. Maybe you've done that piecemeal, but not everyone reads the thread from start to finish. How about a brief recap?

[Nashers]

right i think i know where ur getting yourself confused.

lets talk about the UK.

inorder to fly for money in the UK you MUST have a CPL

inorder to commence your CPL you MUST have done and passed your ATPL ground school and have 150 hours total time.

if you are sure that you do not want to get an IR you can just do the CPL exams. if you want to do the IR as well you will need to do the whole fATPL. now dont ask me what the difference is. all i know is that just for the CPL its a bit easier or a few less exams. i dont know the full difference as im going into passanger flying which i need an IR for.

to make sure that your fATPLs do not expire you MUST finish you CPL AND IR before the 3 years are up (ofcourse if you only want to go into VFR flying dont worry abt the IR).

saying that you are going to restrict yourself to what jobs you can do if you do not have an IR. there are probably jobs out there but there is no money in it and there is very very limited stuff you can do. another thing you can think of is go into instructing as you can get a job the same day you pass your FI course. but again in order to progress to make some good money in that you will need to teach the ME and then IR once you get the experiance. needless to say you will have to have the qualifications before hand...

now if you decide to to do your training in canada they will have different training requirments. this may be why you are getting conflicting info.

an ICAO licence will be accepted back in the UK but you will not be able to use the privilages of your CPL and IR from another country in the UK unless that country is a member of the JAA (canada is not). you will have to do the CPL and IR in the UK again if you wish to work here at a later date. you may be able to get a few hours knocked off the minimum you need for the course but thats it if you have a different countrys rating.

an ICAO licence will only allow you to fly in another ICAO state, in the states aircraft within the state only. for exaple, you will not be able to have a canadian licence and fly a UK aircraft to france, but you will be able to fly a UK aircraft around the UK.

[JohnGV]

Nashers,

Thankyou, thankyou thankyou!

That has made it al so clear! I sense i was being a bit simple! but you have helped me understand it in my novice language.

So, It really is (to be honest) so much better to do the whole ATPL and the ME IR in the long run.

Sheesh - its so much money, and i really am so concerned about being able to raise that sort of capital - let alone within 3 years!!

It seems like, once i have obtained my PPL I'm going to have to consider taking out some sort of loan so i have no restrictions on me being able to complete in the set time. The UK, by far seems the best place to continue my training after my PPL.

Thanks everyone, I feel i understand it all so much better,

Special thanks to Nashers and Adios - you help has been invaluable to me and you really have helped to steer me in the right train of thought.

Thanks for being so patient!

JohnGV:ok::ok::ok:

[Nashers]

what you can do is do your ppl in an ICAO state and much of your hours building there to make it cheaper. leezyjet made a post earlier about doing that. then come here and do the rest of your training here. once you get your CPL it is a new licence so you can chuck the ICAO ppl in the bin as you can do everything on the CPL. the rest of the training is then based on your UK CPL.

good luck with your training. just make sure that you only start when you know you can finish it or you will end up having to do the ATPLs again if they expire.

[Adios]

JohnGV,

Two ways you can go in UK/Europe:

If you just want a single engine CPL:
PPL, CPL theory (I think 9 exams), 150 hours, CPL course, seek work (But you won't yet have enough hours to be insurable under most employers' policies). If you decide later to add an IR, then you must do IR theory (not sure how many exams, but quite a few).

If you opt for fATPL:
PPL, ATPL theory (14 exams), 150 hours, CPL, ME, IR, MCC = frozen ATPL.

For ATPL theory, you get 18 months from first exam to last exam. From last ATPL theory exam, you get three years to pass the IR.

A previous poster has written that the total exams if you do CPL theory and later IR theory is more than 14, hence the logic to just do ATPL theory to start with. The theory is inexpensive compared to the flying, but once you complete it, the 3 year clock is running for IR completion. If you stop the flight training at SE or ME CPL, get the job you want, decide you love it and can do it for life and survive on the low pay, then you can ditch the IR completion. You could easily have 1.5 years or so working or looking for work in which to decide whether to complete the IR or not. If the 3 year clock runs out on IR completion, you would have to do either ATPL theory or IR theory exams over again if you want the IR later.

I don't think there is a clock for MCC completion after the IR.