Another 210 crash Namibia

[Avpsych]

Hi All,
Anyone have any more information about 210 crash in Swakopmund this weekend? :confused:

[Voel]

Six survive as aircraft crash-lands in the desert

WERNER MENGES
A SIGHTSEEING flight came close to ending in death for a pilot and five passengers of a light aircraft at Swakopmund on Saturday, when their aeroplane flipped over after crash-landing at the end of a flight from Sossusvlei.

The aircraft of the Swakopmund-based Pleasure Flights aviation company - a Cessna 210, registration number V5-RGW - had taken off from Swakopmund Airport at about 14h30 on a flight to Sossusvlei, Ericksson Nengola, Director of Aircraft Accident Investigations in the Ministry of Works and Transport, told The Namibian from Swakopmund yesterday.

The aeroplane was piloted by a South African pilot, and had five passengers, understood to be German tourists, on board, Nengola said.

Disaster struck as the aircraft was about to land again at Swakopmund Airport at around 16h30.

According to the information available to him by yesterday afternoon, the aircraft was turning to make its final approach to the airport when its engine failed.

The pilot sent out a mayday call and carried out a landing in the desert some three kilometres from the airport.

But with the landing, the undercarriage of the plane collapsed, Nengola said.

The aircraft flipped over and suffered major damage.

The plane's engine was separated from the fuselage, the wings and tail section were damaged, and three of the plane's seats tore free from the cabin and lay scattered around the crash scene after the accident, Nengola said.

He said he had been informed that two of the passengers were still being treated in hospital by yesterday.

The pilot had already been discharged from hospital by then, and he had been able to interview him as part of the investigation, which is now underway, Nengola said.

SERIES OF CRASHES The crash is the fourth serious light aircraft accident in Namibia since October.

In all three previous incidents foreign visitors to Namibia were the passengers in aeroplanes that crashed shortly after take-off from Windhoek's Eros Airport.

A Namibian pilot and an Italian visitor to Namibia both died when a single-engined Beechcraft in which they had taken off from Eros Airport crashed near the Trade Centre building east of the airport shortly after take-off on October 22.

On January 11, a Cessna 210 aircraft crashed in the Olympia residential area east of the airport, also shortly after taking off, on a flight to Mokuti Lodge.

In that incident, a 24-year-old South African pilot and five Israeli passengers were killed when the aircraft exploded in flames after crashing.

The third crash was in Windhoek on May 9, when another Cessna 210, carrying a South African pilot, two French tourists and two American visitors to Namibia, crashed-landed in the grounds of TransNamib's Gammams Training Centre near the Pionierspark Cemetery when it experienced an engine problem shortly after take-off from Eros Airport.

No-one was killed in that incident, but the passengers suffered serious injuries.

[phirefly]

What I heard was this happened due to fuel starvation. The left tank ran dry. No fuel selecting!

[Propellerpilot]

If he really ran the tank dry by forgetting to interchange tanks, they should ground the man for ever. Not only does it pull down the reputation and standards of pilots from SA (again!) but raptures nonscheduled 210 flights even further.

The first thing that comes to mind on engine starvation is to switch tanks immediatly, check mixture, boost pump on, magnetos - if windmilling doesn't start it: use the starter... bla bla - would be interesting to know from the pax if he even attempted to restart. Even with Vapour in the lines-with boost pump and medium throttle setting it should of worked if 500ft AGL or more were maintained.

I don't know but IMHO seems both accidents that involved the Atlantic Aviation/ Pleasure Flights group, where due to serious pilot errors. The production of this aircraft was discontinued as the company was being sued because many private pilots in the States were too incompetent to handle it. The C210 curse over Namibia is probably there to stay if people involved will not wake up. I believe it is not the aircrafts fault.

[SkySurfin]

I keep reading about these accidents in Namibia and cant help but wonder what the problems are. There is obviously some underlying factors that are causing these crashes, as they are a frequent occurance. You just need to look across the border to Botswana and see that its a different story their.

The number of flight movements from Maun are probably at least equal to or greater than those in Namibia collectivley. They operate the same types of aircraft (206s,210s), employ the same demographic of pilots (Safas, Poms, Kiwis, OZys) and do similar types of flying (bush/scenic). YET the accident rate in Botswana seems to be far less than the neighbouring brother Namibia..... I dont have actual numbers, but it certainly appears that over the last 5-6 years there have been very few accidents in Botswana compared to Namibia.

There is obviously several factors which could be responsible for these accidents...........

1. Maintanence is not up to the same standards?

2. Pilot training or experience levels differ?

3. Company operating procedures are not satisfactory?

Im not saying Botswana is perfect, but I personally remember arriving from NZ to fly in Maun and being impressed with the level of training and maintanence. Maybe Namibia should take a leaf out of their book.......:ok:

[Knormoer]

I also worked there for 4 years (Swakop and Whk) and arrived there like all my friends "factory fresh" in terms of experience. We didnt have any crashes (there were a couple of close calls though) but our boss kept his fingers on us 24/7 and frequently flew with us just to check things out! I mean, thats how we learn? An we still had great fun! Maintenance in Nam I always thought was very good. Not changing a fuel selector in over 2 hours? Not very wise! Thats basics but I guess his close call was just that last centimeter too close.

[Insane]

Agree with Knormoer, regular check rides or line checks tend to keep guys in line with company policy and should be a must on a regular basis. KEEP GUYS ON THEIR TOES:ok:

[PitchandFan]

I was told by my nephew, who also spent quite some time up in nam flying 210s that most of the guys there are guys that (like himself) could not get into other companies, for whatever reason. usually extremely low time chaps, and not always the sharpest tools in the shed.

This by his own admittance, as one such pilot, who just scraped through. Obviously after a few thousand hours he is now flying for a domestic carrier, and has caught up, but he says that is the weakness of the nam crews.

[oompilot]

Well if nothing else, you would’ve definitely lit a few fuses with your thoughts!:E

[vrystaat!]

I used to fly alot in swakop and did many hours in the same a/c (V5-RGW) is was n very good and strong 210..but about a year go she started to give some problems with the magnetos and pissing oil out bigtime.. She wasn't flying alot at all and almost took a friend down whom was flying a photo-shoot(problems with the valves) but he got her back to Walvisbaai...I don't know anything about the crash but I do now that A/C had big engin problems....

Just glad everybody is alive!!

[Propellerpilot]

If the aerie was known to have problems - then there is a serious problem in that operation - don't they report the misperformance ? If this led to the forced landing it should be investigated. Talk about Happy go lucky ?

[Insane]

Yep, (Happy go lucky) Just happy to be lucky!!

[phirefly]

It was confirmed today....fuel starvation. the ouk was pushing his luck!!! operators should be ontop of this type of thing. :confused:

its truly sad to see a fellow competitor go out of the game, but if you cannot run a business of this calibre then i cant see it happening any other way. its just been happening too often, last crash they had 5 people lost there lives, all because these pilots are not trained or exposed correctly.

please correct me if i'm wrong.

good bye atlantic, good bye pleasure flights. :{

[Propellerpilot]

Who could've guessed...

[vrystaat!]

Pleasure flights and Anlantic was a VERY good company and I do agree that things are falling apart bigtime...and personally think the problem starts with management by "holding" pilots back from improving their skill. Not controlling fuel has no excuse and is FULLY pilot error and feeling very bad for the pilot cause I know how many pilots :mad:-up on fuel control(BIGTIME) and get away with it......

All I hope is that PFS and AA will pick up what is left and its upto the pilots to get this company where is used to be...

happy landing boys

[babygoose]

Pleasure flights and Atlantic are the only pilots(and also DA) who still got the good vibe/spirrit for flying !!!but they have to pull their finger out of their ass!! cause things are getting bad..

[Icarus208]

Add a couple of Tafel lagers and Windhoek lagers in the mix the night before and try and fly the next day.......???????

Curios....Swakopmund reputation???

[BushCaptain]

I've been flying in Nambia for 2 years and have been very shocked :eek: by the growing number of incidences that have been happening recently!

First of all fuel starvation due to forgetting to change tanks is unexcusable! := And this is not the first time this has happened in Swakopmund, not long ago another 210 went down just before the threshold due to forgetting the fuel selector!

In my opinion the reason is due to cowboy pilots being unproffessional and putting peoples lives on the line! Flying is NOT a game!
Yes its fun going low level, doing formation with 7 other aircraft, dodging trees, powerlines, sand dunes etc..But if you want to do that, do it with your own aircraft and by yourself!

The probable reason that the pilot of the latest incident didn't change tanks after the one going dry is cause he was doing a base leg at 50ft, at that height there is no time to do anything!

I also believe that training for the scenic pilots is not enough. At the end of the day, the 210 isn't the easiest plane to fly, production was discontined for a reason!
Some companies require 50hrs of training on the 210 before pilots go 'online', and you don't hear of them having any problems!!

2 things must change: Training and Mentality!

Keep it safe guys.... :cool:

[Icarus208]

Agreed Bush Captain..I was one of those pilots that worked for the company that offers 50hrs "online training" and was one of the instructors that did the training for those guys. Did have a couple of incidents but that was due to aircraft problems and not the pilots fault..We used to enforce the 3month recurrency training and forced landing training..I dont know if they still do it but the amount of hours they fly and the amount or could say the lack of incidents and accidents...reflects back onto training.

Companies should enforce more training on pilots and should screen their pilots better.

[Propellerpilot]

Base Leg at 50ft?:uhoh:

[vrystaat!]

I agree that the training need some serious itention. I used to fly in swakop and recently started with another company and reaslized what a big lack in training in swk is......and the company have to do something about it(if they don't close down)....

And about the drinking and flying: it got nothing to do with one of the last 3 C210 accidents.....and for the record the drinking before flying is dying away bigtime...

[PitchandFan]

""and for the record the drinking before flying is dying away bigtime...""

I find that statement rather chilling....:bored:

[Voel]

It does not want to stop. Another C210 had engine failure on take off Friday at Eros and another one did a forcelanding Saturday 80 miles south west of Windhoek. Lucky all pax and crew safe (without scratch):ok:. More news in www.republikein.com.na or www.namibian.com.na tomorrow.

[vrystaat!]

"and for the record the drinking before flying is dying away bigtime..." sorry that does sound a bit chilling.....

Another C210 down????what the hell is going on there?? got more information???

stadig ouens....

[Icarus208]

When I worked in Nam I had a few friends that did work in Swakopmund and not one but many told me that they cant remember doing a scenic that morning even though they did because they were too "hungover" or too out of it too remember the flight....thats chilling...and it wasnt only then..it is still there till today.

Something drastic must be done NOW, others will follow the 'religion' that Swakopmund has set. ....Maybe a compulsory blood test and breathalizer everymorning...????

[babygoose]

Hi I208

yeah I heard stories and yes they are true...BUT how many accidents were their those years??????????

like I said these A/C accidents got nothing to do with drink and flying!!!!!!!!!!!!and I been flying years in namib and trust me Windhoek pilots are no different and so are many other places!!!

All I want to find out is what happend to the Sefo C210 that went down this weekend???

[Inniehoek]

SkySurfin ,you obviously know Stewart at Mackair ....saftey first...pilot training essential !!! 50 Ft base ...unheard of at such a big airport. Still remember in the years of the bush war that I was given the instruction by ATC as I left Grootfontein to keep it low ...very low ...then 50 Ft was OK.:ok: Those days you had to come in and depart very low just in case someone with a SAM7 missile spotted you !!

[Icarus208]

Babygoose..Im not saying that Windhoek pilots are better than Swakopmund pilots. I had many friends down on the coast flying there and loved every minute of the coastline and the company of the pilots and there was never a rivalry between any of them..And yes you are correct there wasnt many accidents when I was there from 2004-2006, a few yes but nothing as many as now..

Im just saying that Swakopmund does have a reputation of drinking and flying and this accident could have been caused by the after effects of drinking..better known as "hangover"...To forget to change tanks on a C210 for 1.6hours is pretty long wouldnt you say? And that the pilot didnt feel that the aircraft is "leaning" more to one side than the other wing..mind boggling. After a few scenic flights it becomes moto memory to change tanks at a specific point along the route without checking your watch or the guages.

An accident has many sides to a story..we wouldnt know exactly what happened except the pilot himself. Nam DCA should start regulating the training of the pilots more and insist on proficiency checks from the operators more often to prevent accidents like this one.

As for the accident on the Sefo aeroplane..I also would like to know..Have a few friends flying there.

[Insane]

Heard the sefo has a strict training policy for new pilots and are unwavering in their requirements:ok:

[Icarus208]

Sefofanes training policy is as follows:

Sefo has an agreement with their insurance underwriters that any pilot that flies "online" will have a minimum hours of 300 Total. So if a pilot arrives from SA with 200hours they might get hired. If that person gets hired then that pilot will fly under supervision with another Sefo pilot that has more than 1000hours Total time himself and train that pilot for the remainder until he has 300TT. Further to that the pilot must have 50hours on TYPE before he can go online. Sefo WILL NOT waive this because of the insurance. Sefo has something like 16 aeroplanes just in Namibia already and with this training policy they get reduced insurance rates and brings down their policy drastically. With out that then the insurance would be rather high and business would not be so great.

As for the Route training, Sefo puts you on as many empty leg sectors first before you may take passengers. Only after the BOSS thinks you may take passengers then you are allowed to take passengers. This route training can take up to 3months sometimes, depends on how many hours you arrive with. But ultimately 300hours is the GOLDEN mark.

As for the Caravan policy, pilot must have more that 1000hours TT before he is eligible for the postion. 1000 TT doesnt guarentee you the job automatically but if a situation arise for an opening...the viola..you got the position..and still you will fly a C210 and not just the VAN.

And finally for the Sefo aeroplane that went down the other day....A C210 had engine problems enroute from Geluk to WDK Int. Pilot made a safe forced landing on a dirt road somewhere halfway. Everybody OK on aeroplane including plane itself...So again...training plays a BIG role on safety...Well done to the pilot...More like this should be done in Namibia.

[Insane]

Can't fault SEFOS :ok::ok::ok:

[Voel]

Aviation industry (Avianam) has now introduced a similar policy for all its members, but with a slight difference. Pilots fly only 25 hours under supervision iso of the 50 hours of Sefo. But what of maintenance? The previous forcelanding and air return was due to mechanical error?

[Avpsych]

Little bird told me that Nam DCA is focusing seriously on maintenance issues whilst investigating these 210 crashes. Makes sense to me.

[babygoose]

Icarus208 I TOTTALY agree with you on there is no exuse for forgetting about fuel..and I personnaly knows at pleasure flights flightlogs make sure of reminding the pilots to calculate fuel...

And for the sefo pilot...he can be damn lucky the donkey's didn't stop on him(or her???) over those mountains...but well done for a very good landing...

happy landing boys...namibia still stays the best place to fly....:D

[PitchandFan]

"..namibia still stays the best place to fly....:D""

Yeah, in other places you need to leave your drink at the airport gates...:hmm:

[Airforce1]

V5-RGW, what a shame-I used to fly that beast many years back, shame to hear its been beached,
oh and Icarus208-careful to not point fingers and make up bad stories about drinking and flying when you prob dont know facts about this incident.

[Icarus208]

Airforce

If you read my posts VERY CAREFULLY and maybe a LITTLE slower would you see that at NO point did I point fingers to the pilot that crashed V5-RGW. I merely referred to the Swakopmund pilots that would drink the night before and go fly the following day..way over the legal limit.

FACT: I have known a few pilots who actually flown like Ive described and said in previous posts.

And if you have flown RGW then you were also a Swakopmund pilot and you would know exactly what Im talking about...and please prove me wrong.

[ZEEBEE]

I also believe that training for the scenic pilots is not enough. At the end of the day, the 210 isn't the easiest plane to fly, production was discontined for a reason!
Some companies require 50hrs of training on the 210 before pilots go 'online', and you don't hear of them having any problems!!

I don't really know too much about the specifics of this accident and I'm sorry to hear of all these accidents that ultimately hurt everybody in the industry.

BUT I do take exception to the statement thaat the 210 is not the easiest plane to fly.
They really don't come much easier.

With oodles of power even with six peeps on board , its stalling speed is low enough to not get into trouble that way.
Yes, fuel management demands attention, but then try a Cherokee 6 where you've got to juggle four tanks. Also gravity feed helps to light it up again as soon as you put things right if it does cough a couple of times.

The reason they stopped production was the problem with the outer wing structure and the litigation Cessna suffered as a result.

[Propellerpilot]

I thought it was discontinued due to two reasons: pilots forgetting to lower the landing gear and secondly pilots getting on the wrong side of the drag curve and stalling or putting it into a spin. A 210 is not as forgiving as other aircraft-that's definatly for sure. Other aircraft with laminar flow wings are similar e.g. Mooney

But if changing fuel tanks is the issue, then the C210 is not more complex than other aircraft in its class.

[Insane]

ZEEBEE, what was the issue with the outer wing structure on the 210 that resulted in litigation??:confused:

[HansFlyer]

ZEEBEE, what was the issue with the outer wing structure on the 210 that resulted in litigation??

According to an insider at Cessna they discontinued the retract Piston Singles due to the number of gear failures and the resulting litigation they encountered in the USA. There were also several fuel starvation incidents especially with the 210 - but the theory on the wings sounds a bit hard to swallow - but I would like to be enlightened?

HF